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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 20, 2012, 08:43 AM:
What in the hell provokes a young man to shoot up a crowded theater, killing at least 14 and sending50 to the hospital?
Could a CCW permite have prevented some of the carnage, or was this theater a gun free zone where it was against the law to carry a weapon?
I don't know, but like the Tucson incident and others, I just have to wonder about the society in which these things can occur? I know, in my generation, shit like this was unknown.
Will this reignite the gun control efforts? Eventually, some Bloomberg type will want to protect us by disarming us. Whatever.
But how can we identify the degenerate individuals that are capable of such brutality? There has to be a way. Maybe? Probably not?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 20, 2012, 10:22 AM:
I understand what you are saying Leonard. The world has been steadily growing crazier for quite some time now. From what I have picked up from Fox news, it sounds like the shooter may well be an employee or former employee of the theater. He certainly knew his way around inside the theater mighty well. Will the act help the anti gun movement? Yes it will.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 20, 2012, 10:45 AM:
Does this asshole deserve a fair trial? I am vengeful. I would sooner handcuff him and twist a wire coat hanger around his chicken neck, (not too tight) and let him bang around in a padded room for 20/30 minutes. A lethal injection ten years from now does not seem like justice, but that's just me.
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: HOLD THE PHONE! OBAMA IS RIGHT ON IT, HE WILL HOLD A MEETING THIS MORNING!
edit: WE ARE SAVED!
[ July 20, 2012, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on July 20, 2012, 11:20 AM:
Great BO has come to save us. FanFuckingTastic.
Rep. Pete King (NY), who is usually on our side, has already said how did the individual get his hands on "such a large cache of weapons?" WTF: four guns is a large cache of weapons!!!!! Most of us must be a bunch of crazies then. Get real Pete
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 20, 2012, 11:25 AM:
http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2012/07/aurora-abc-draws-possible-tea-party-connection-129568.html
Hope this link works. ABC's Brian Ross made allogations the shooter was a member of the Co. tea party. ALL media outlets make me sick at this point. As far as your question Lb, I don't think we are breeding anymore degenerates than we ever have, I just think we have better media coverage of it. That fact, plus the fact that there is no shortage of people/groups willing to take advatage of tragedies.
Maintain
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 20, 2012, 12:41 PM:
Boy! If that don't just take the cake! Now, that link includes an apology, it's a different person with the same name.
But, this knee jerk journalism fries my ass. They might as well said: The same Jim Holmes that recently landed from Mars. TV news is pathetic. I can't rate them as worst and second and third worst, but ABC, CBS and NBC are in a virtual tie for worst misuse of the public airwaves.
Good hunting. LB
PS, has Obama gotten to the bottom of this, yet? edit: I heard he; "was saddened" so that is going to help, a lot.
[ July 20, 2012, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 20, 2012, 01:35 PM:
In the meantime, they should give this guy to Jerry Sandusky, before his trial. I think Sandusky should get the clothes hanger treatment. I hear it cures pedophilia?
Good hunting. Lima Bravo
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 20, 2012, 02:01 PM:
Yeah Lb, there was an apology but, the msm was wanting so badly to tie this incident to the conservatives. This has been a terrible tragedy. Unfortunatly, many are looking for ways to use this to forward their agendas while the other side goes on the immediate defensive.
On another note, it is being said now in some places that the shooter was a member of a militant version of OWS. Don't know if there is any truth to it, but I find it kinda ironoic.
Maintain
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 20, 2012, 02:41 PM:
Here's a thought;
Who's to say that the exact same thing wasn't about to happen in that coffee shop down in Fla. when it was stopped by a law abiding citizen with a gun???
The liberals can wring their hands all they want & sing Kum-bay-yah while drinking herbal tea but the fact remains that there are bad people in the world and the only way to deal with trash is to take it out.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 20, 2012, 03:58 PM:
It didn't take long for this Dickwad to advocate for gun laws.
http://dailycaller.com/2012/07/20/bloomberg-calls-on-obama-romney-to-get-tough-on-guns/
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 20, 2012, 05:23 PM:
IMO, yes, and no.
I have a cousin who is a banker in Littleton and he lives about 2 blocks from Columbine High School. The day that all went down, they wouldn't let him go to his house. We were discussing that shortly afterwards and I told him that, IMO, we should prepare ourselves for more of that for several reasons.
1. The media glorifies this and in this day of sexting, sex videos, YouTube, and everyone thinking they entitled to their 15 minutes of fame because the media will carry the ball for them, this is the type of things these people turn to.
2. For the past several decades, the liberal education system has tried to engineer our children through the school system to believe that everyone is perfect and that no one is any better than anyone else. Everyone gets a trophy and all that crap. Up until about the time I was getting out of high school, kids were brought along to understand that not everyone is equally good at everything. Sometimes, you suck. Deal with it. You will fail. And when you do, either reorient yourself to take another jab at it or find something else to do or be and keep on trying until you find your niche. Nowadays, Li'l Johnny's parents don't want him to get a complex by letting on that he can't do shit for nothing. Trophies for just showing up.
Unfortunately, when you hit about 18 and start trying to find your way in the world, prospective employers don't give out trophies for effort and you either get good fast or you're fired. A LOT of these poor kids simply are not equipped to manage their own failures and turn things around. They lack the emotional and social tools to make that happen. Is it their fault? No. Is it our fault? Not entirely. Whose fault is it? The system, and unless you home school, you're ass deep in the problem.
In the Aurora case, word is this guy was an honors student who had recently transferred to CO for graduate school and was having a hard time not being the best that he could be. Maybe, lacking the tools of coping with his own mediocrity, he imploded. Who knows.
Bottom line, many of today's kids don't realize that the first day after high school, with diploma in hand, you need to put on your big boy underwear and deal with it.
Was this a gun issue? hell no. This was a whack job issue. Take the gun out of the picture and you still have a whack job.
Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on July 20, 2012, 09:05 PM:
Todays media is way more interested in reporting FIRST rather than right. Gee do ya'll think the media leans left???
Carl
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 21, 2012, 04:31 AM:
"I know, in my generation, shit like this was unknown."
Cain slew Able, North vs. the South, injuns wiped out entire villages then we wiped them out, ain't slowed down yet....
And from your generation, what about the guy in the tower shooting at students? I could probably name a few more.
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on July 21, 2012, 06:51 AM:
I was talking with a teacher (7th grade) who taught my son last school year and I asked her about how kids have changed over her 20-year career. Her response was while discipline problems have remained about the same, there is definetly a higher percentage of kids who are just plain weird.
Posted by ARDave (Member # 3848) on July 21, 2012, 08:19 AM:
Our right to bear arms could have saved the day, if someone was in the right place and had a gun on them. Sad deal.
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on July 21, 2012, 09:22 AM:
That would have been a tough shot for a CCW holder to make. My personal carry weapon is a j frame smith with a 2.5" sight plain. It is really hard to carry big guns concealed. The guy had body armor. From what I've heard he also had a ballistic helmet, a bullet proof throat and groin protector. I didn't hear anything about leg protection so that only leaves a leg shot or a shot to the face. With a concealable weapon it would be a tough shot with only a face shot being the certain stopping point. Leg shots will kill if you hit the artery but the guy can still shoot and kill for quite a while while lying down and bleeding to death. The scary thing is in a dark theater you probably wouldn't know the guy had armor on but it wouldn't be a problem for him to take you out with the weapons he had. It would almost be as bad as showing up at a gun fight with a knife. I'm not saying one shouldn't try but to avoid having a really bad day, one would have to keep their cool and use their head which is very tough to do is such a situation. I doubt most individuals who have had advanced training could even really pull that one off.
As an added note, this a case in point where a CCW holder would need those teflon cop killer bullets, but we are not allowed to have those anymore since they are only good for killing cops.
[ July 21, 2012, 09:33 AM: Message edited by: Aznative ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 21, 2012, 09:24 AM:
Thanks, Tom. I was counting on you to completely miss the point. And, I had forgotten to flog myself this morning for the shabby way we treated the injuns.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 21, 2012, 11:32 AM:
Just saying your generation wasn't no better than this one, we have been doing evil things since time began. It's time to quit making excuses and do something about it. What? I don't know, other than shoot back.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 21, 2012, 11:33 AM:
Oh and don't worry about the injuns, from where I sit, they got it pretty good.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 21, 2012, 12:29 PM:
Aznative, I agree, and who is to say that most ccw holders would not be caught up in the confusion and panic also. On the other side of that, they say the first rule of a gunfight is....bring a gun. Taking a few rounds into his armour may have changed his demeanor. Along with alot of answers, we will never know.
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on July 21, 2012, 01:03 PM:
I can only imagine the fall out, and spin, if a CCW holder did shoot at this INSECT, and accidentally wounded or killed an innocent person.
He would be called a Vigilante, and then the anti's would be screaming about CCW's playing cop and such.
My CCW weapon is not really accurate at 25+ yards, and well I again can only imagine trying to kill this insect under all the stress, tear gas, and chaos going on.
Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on July 21, 2012, 02:35 PM:
All the body armor this scumbag had on and looks to have surrendered to police relatively easy, so he had no intentions of dying or getting hurt himself. I would think a CCW even a snub nosed .22short shooting in his direction would have ended his shooting spree and would have been running for his life.
Someone hell bent on killing you may need a spinal cord hit from the big bore, but in reality the run of the mill bandit/thief/shooter only has to be shot at to go into full retreat in 99% of the cases. People just tend to put their head down or take cover/run when being shot at no matter the caliber or accuracy.
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 21, 2012, 03:29 PM:
Lance what you said concerning "education" and/or lack of it pretty much nails it.
For years now i try to ask my elders if this generation of adults is any different than past generations. One friend has said many,many times that society fell on its ass when drugs became as common as family picnics in america. He (Chet) is in his mid 70's, served in the military, a husband w/ same wife he started out with, father & grandfather.
I think we all agree that something major is wrong with society but, how do we fix it?
[ July 21, 2012, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Prune Picker ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 21, 2012, 05:42 PM:
I can see it all now, one ccw pulls out his pistol and then another and yet another from another part of the theater and they all start banging away not sure of who is or is'nt the bad guy and then you got all the by-standers in the theater dodgeing bullets from all sides..
I can see a guy protecting himself at a 7-eleven but not in a crowd of people, no good would become of it and there would be a much higher body count than what there was..
Not all bad guys wear body armor or even a mask when on a shooting spree and some times there is more than one shooter and then you have to throw in the CCW guys which scares the hell out of me if I was also packing as I would shoot at any or all the the sob that had a gun as well.
It was pretty simple back in the old days to tell them apart, either you had white skin or red skin..LOL
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 21, 2012, 06:24 PM:
I disagree, Tim. Better to shoot back than curl up in a ball with your hands covering your head.
And, here's the thing. BECAUSE he was all dressed up, he obviously was not fixing on dying and some returned fire might have got him to duck and run a lot sooner than he did. I also think, like the experts say, shoot for the head and his gas mask won't stop a bullet.
I have often wondered what I would do in those situations. You have to consider that pulling a gun and if one of the people just happened to be a cop, he would probably shoot you sooner than the ninja guy in the stairwell. So, that's the thanks you get for defending yourself but in spite of all the reasons not to, I am pretty sure I would try to return fire. What the hell am I carrying it for, and the one time I need it, I think twice and decide to dig a hole under the seats? Not this kid.
Good hunting. Lima Bravo
edit: agreed, Tom. From where I sit, the noble red man has it pretty good, these days.
[ July 21, 2012, 06:26 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 21, 2012, 06:55 PM:
I agree shoot for the headif you can..
quote:
I have often wondered what I would do in those situations. You have to consider that pulling a gun and if one of the people just happened to be a cop, he would probably shoot you sooner than the ninja guy in the stairwell. So, that's the thanks you get for defending yourself but in spite of all the reasons not to, I am pretty sure I would try to return fire.
Can't say for sure how I would handle the cituation with out being there, but I would'nt be curled up in a ball, behind a chair yes and protecting my space.. As for fireing back it would depend on how far away the shooter was from me and where the others are...
Through my training you shoot at anyone with a gun period and John Wayne tactics won't cut it if you plan on seeing tommorrow....
In a situation like the theater about all you can do is help protect those closest to you or behind and anyone between you and the shooter or behind him are pretty much on there own...
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 21, 2012, 08:25 PM:
Oklahoma has passed open carry, I won't open carry but I won't worry about printing or flashing either so not much need for a pocket pistol.
I feel pretty confident I could make a head shot at 25 yards and a little further unless I'm stricken with fear and adrenalin, no one knows until he's being shot at, just how they will react.
But one thing I'm certain of, not many would have attempted this terrible slaughter if they thought for a minute that someone in the crowd was armed and might return fire. This guy wanted to control life and death without objection. I guarantee you a shot in his armor would have changed his mind.
I am totally responsible for any shot I fire and I'm alright with that. I will not just lay down and die.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 21, 2012, 08:33 PM:
quote:
But one thing I'm certain of, not many would have attempted this terrible slaughter if they thought for a minute that someone in the crowd was armed and might return fire. This guy wanted to control life and death without objection. I guarantee you a shot in his armor would have changed his mind.
As you have already read crazy people will do crazey shit no matter what. And since the guy had on body armor perhaps he was exspecting some resistance from the crowd at the theater. Yes a shot in his armor could of changed things, more shots would of been fired in your direction rather than elsewhere and perhaps a few lives could of been saved before you died..LOL
[ July 21, 2012, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 21, 2012, 08:47 PM:
I kinda doubt that anyone was standing next to the idiot while he was shooting. If they were and had a carry permit they probably would have shot the sob.
I have little faith that any cop would have delayed shooting at him with any regard for innocent bystanders, but i could be wrong.
Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on July 22, 2012, 03:36 AM:
TA17Rem posts
quote:
I can see it all now, one ccw pulls out his pistol and then another and yet another from another part of the theater and they all start banging away not sure of who is or is'nt the bad guy and then you got all the by-standers in the theater dodgeing bullets from all sides..
I can see a guy protecting himself at a 7-eleven but not in a crowd of people, no good would become of it and there would be a much higher body count than what there was..
Not all bad guys wear body armor or even a mask when on a shooting spree and some times there is more than one shooter and then you have to throw in the CCW guys which scares the hell out of me if I was also packing as I would shoot at any or all the the sob that had a gun as well.
When I read this I had to scroll up to the top of my web browser and make sure I was on a gun hunting site. I thought I may have accidently went to an anti gun site somehow while researching morons.
Somehow protecting one’s life is the wrong thing to do in a crowded space? We should let people carry guns to protect their lives, but if there is a chance someone else may get hurt we should take that right away? WTF!!!
We already know how it turned out when only the bad guy had a gun. Somehow in your mind , “no good would become of it and there would be a much higher body count than what there was”..Once again WTF!!!
No matter the body count a shootout of American citizens against a murderer trying to execute them is much better than a Murder executing unarmed American citizens at will.
[ July 22, 2012, 03:37 AM: Message edited by: CCP ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 22, 2012, 03:42 AM:
quote:
I have often wondered what I would do in those situations. You have to consider that pulling a gun and if one of the people just happened to be a cop, he would probably shoot you sooner than the ninja guy in the stairwell. So, that's the thanks you get for defending yourself but in spite of all the reasons not to, I am pretty sure I would try to return fire.
I would take the of risk being shot by another cop if I were off duty and this nonsense occurred in my presence.
And some people wonder why I carry all the time.
[ July 22, 2012, 03:44 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 22, 2012, 03:49 AM:
quote:
As you have already read crazy people will do crazey shit no matter what. And since the guy had on body armor perhaps he was exspecting some resistance from the crowd at the theater. Yes a shot in his armor could of changed things, more shots would of been fired in your direction rather than elsewhere and perhaps a few lives could of been saved before you died..LOL
I know you threw an "LOL" in here Tim, but actually you are not far from the truth. If we can at least put a round or two in this turd's body armour, we can draw his fire onto us. In this case he is now focusing his attention on us and he is not shooting innocents, and we can buy a little time until the cavalry arrives. That is, unless I can get close enough for a head shot with whatever I am carrying that day.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 22, 2012, 06:07 AM:
Let's not forget this body armor wearing nutcase that was expecting resistance, gave up without a struggle in the parking lot.
Several will portray the part but few go the distance...
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 22, 2012, 06:48 AM:
He may have lost his nerve, I don't know. Or else he ran out of ammo. Supposedly he had a 100 round Beta mag that jammed, and he reloaded and switched to a 30 round mag.
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jqCRlhJOEJqgQo846YGKNwxsNdGA?docId=845629442e694c06af113461bb0bbc87
[ July 22, 2012, 07:07 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on July 22, 2012, 07:11 AM:
If concealed carry was legal in Aurora, the whack job would have probably just altered his tactics. It's a shame that someone can just take the stance he did and not be the least bit concerned about taking fire until the cops show up. The right person, with the right mind set, in the right place could have had a dramatic effect...like the ol' boy in FLA. If the manly little gal with the buzz cut that said he stuck the rifle right in her face, but didn't get shot had been that person...
That scenario will never compute to the Bloomberg types though.
That's quite a photo, Nick.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 22, 2012, 07:34 AM:
quote:
That's quite a photo, Nick
Telling, isn't it Jim?
Prayers sent for the victims. One of them is from my town, and had moved out to Colorado. My step daughter knows her, and it is very possible she had been at my house for a birthday party when they were children. She is a survivor, and underwent surgery for shrapnel wounds as well as injuries she sustained while being trampled during the panick to exit the theatre.
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on July 22, 2012, 08:33 AM:
More new on this idiot:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/22/massacre-suspect-james-holmes-gun-range-application-drew-red-flag-for-owner/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+foxnews %2Fnational+%28Internal+-+US+Latest+-+Text%29
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 22, 2012, 09:04 AM:
I heard that the jail population is all for killing the bastard without benefit of a "fair" trial.
You know, I'm not a big fan of the type of machine gun that the guy used, but I do have a preference on magazines. I have always preferred the 20 round over the thirty round, but I think they are hard to find? I have 8 or 9 30 round mags and about half that many 20, and one that I modified to hold five rounds.
But, my point is, although the public wets their pants over a 100 round magazine, that would not be my choice as I would EXPECT it to jamb somewhere along the line and probably at an inopportune time. Something an amateur would want, no doubt?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on July 22, 2012, 10:06 AM:
I completely agree leonard. It was probably a good thing this dipshit went in with the drum magazine. Those things jam more often than they don't. I heard one report where he quit using the AR because it jammed. If he had went in with nothing but 30s or 20s he probably would have killed more than the dozen he got.
BTW: I'm really surprised you have something that uses 20 and/or 30 round mags.
edited in: Leonard we don't need to be calling a semi a machine gun. I haven't heard that is was a full auto, and I'm sure that would have been all over the news if it was so.
[ July 22, 2012, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Aznative ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 22, 2012, 10:28 AM:
But, if you were paying attention, I always call AR's machine guns.
I own one, it sits unused until the ballon goes up. Not particularly proud of it and probably regret the purchase.
But, here's the thing. Me, I am using sarcasm and CA humor. But, the general public, they see that evil thing laying on the sidewalk, blood everywhere and they do not appreciate the distinction between semi auto and machine gun with a 100 round magazine.
We can educate them 'til the cows come home and they are afraid of the black gun and that's why I am not a fan of AR's in a hunting application. Even if they have a useful application, (occasionally) they still offend my esthetics as to what a sporting arm should look like.
It's a personal thing, I just can't warm up to AR's and will continue to mislabel them.
I'm just wondering how many he killed with the shotgun in those close quarters? They say some people had "shrapnel" wounds?
Good hunting. LB
edit: yes, the asshole gave up without a struggle, but they say he is spitting at everyone he comes in contact with. Just once, I'd like to hear of the jailers slapping the shit out of him for that. Oh yeah, Liberals would defend him, wouldn't they? That makes us no better than him and other claptrap.
[ July 22, 2012, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 22, 2012, 10:33 AM:
I just learned the turd was dressed in SWAT garb. The responding police noticed something "off" about his gear which set him apart from the real cops, and were able to make the arrest.
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-3460_162-57477408/aurora-police-chief-no-other-person-of-interest/
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 22, 2012, 10:38 AM:
So, what was the tip off? Was he wearing Nike's, or what?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 22, 2012, 11:31 AM:
"So, what was the tip off? Was he wearing Nike's, or what?"
---------------------------
Either that or maybe the "Obama Rocks" T shirt?
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on July 22, 2012, 11:33 AM:
I saw the 4 star General speaking but didn't catch what the two LEO's saw that gave him (the bad guy) away.
I have absolutely no sympathy for this insect. He killed that little girl among other innocents. Let the inmates have him.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 22, 2012, 12:13 PM:
quote:
So, what was the tip off? Was he wearing Nike's, or what
Don't know. We probably never will know, as it should be. We don't want to give future potential copycats any hints.
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on July 22, 2012, 01:07 PM:
Probably the made in USA logo on his bullet proof gear. State and city bids always goes to the low bidder so the real swat guys are wearing stuff that says made in china.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 22, 2012, 01:22 PM:
Maybe it was his hair color..
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on July 22, 2012, 01:32 PM:
Quote of the day;
"Let the inmates have him"
I'm all for law & order and fair trials & all of that, but..................
This asshole is going to cost Col. MILLIONS of dollars in all of the legal bs that comes before a trial that will likely never happen. Then MILLIONS more to care & feed & `treat` the poor soul for the rest of his life.
Pardon me for being heartless, but we have plenty of good people that deserve help. We don't need scum. Let the inmates have him.
Posted by ARDave (Member # 3848) on July 22, 2012, 04:06 PM:
All I can tell ya is this... If more people were armed, there is less chance of this happening. Just my opinoin. Can't hardly say anything is a fact. The only fact that I do know is this... It's easy shooting into a crowd that dosen't return fire. Body armor or not, I bet he would have felt a sting or two and might have even ran away. I "think" I would have tried to cover my family or get them out first. If that didn't work out, I would most likley have unloaded my gun on him, where ever it hit him.
If you have two elderly couples walking down the side walk, one set is clearly packing Colts on their side, the other set is holding hands with nothing... Who you gonna attack and rob? Just sayin...
I realize this example is not the same, but with recent attention to the ones of us who do cherish our God given right to own and bear firearms, I just kinda get the vibe that this situation will be used against us when it absolutly should not be. I sure hate this happened and prayers are with the victims and their family.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 22, 2012, 04:14 PM:
quote:
If you have two elderly couples walking down the side walk, one set is clearly packing Colts on their side, the other set is holding hands with nothing... Who you gonna attack and rob? Just sayin...
Just guessing but it depends on what each of them have that wouldbe worth takeing and how far the robber wanted to go..
The couple with the guns already delt there hand by walking around with them in the open..
The robber would most likely just shoot those two right from the get go and perhaps just take what he wanted from the other two without fireing a shot..
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on July 22, 2012, 04:38 PM:
"Not particularly proud of it and probably regret the purchase."
It seems apparent to me that people that live on the east and west coast seem to share that attitude. I believe the problem is salt water. They get to much salt on the brain from the sea air which means we need to ban salt water.
I'm sure BO is chomping at the bit to start using the gun control issue to distract from the real problem: jobs. Maybe this low live is an occupy WS asshole whoes real goal is to help re-elect BO. He sure looks like an OWS idiot.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 22, 2012, 04:59 PM:
Tim, your comments are based on nothing but conjecture. You have no way of knowing the possible changes to the situation in Aurora had there been ccw holders present. Your proposed scenario is based on nothing but desire to play the devils advocate. Sadly, your comments parallel, if not regurgitate, the same stance that the anti gun side spews. Truth be told, I do take a little comfort in knowing that the world is still full of people who would prefer to have the option to carry and possibly make a differance for the possitive. Thank god not everyone wants to be a helpless victim regardless of the odds.
Maintain
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 22, 2012, 06:34 PM:
Im not trying to shift the topic but.....
Why is Obama calling this incident An "ACT OF TERRORISM" , when he calls the Nidal Malik Haran shooting @ Fort Hood the act of a sick man? Unless the count is off , 13 people have died in each shooting. Is there any difference? Haran is a muslim & Holmes is white, they are both pieces of shit.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 22, 2012, 07:38 PM:
I heard today that there is a scene in a batman comic book that this attack was based on. Can anyone confirm or deny?
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 22, 2012, 07:56 PM:
I went to see the new movie today. Not sure about a connection to the comic books , but i think i now know the difference in a socialist and a flat out communist . Socialists want to "change your bad ways"(so they say), commies (like Lenin & Stalin) killed everyone who got in thier way. But as far as a difference between the two, they both have the same, same stink of shit.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 22, 2012, 08:04 PM:
Your right Geordie it would be a coin toss at best on the out come if a few ccw dudes was present..
How is your shooting in low lite conditions by the way and have you ever shot at another person or shot at someone that was shooting back or even pointed a loaded gun at another????
Talk is pretty cheap when it comes down to pulling the trigger on someone and it may surprise you but alot of people can't do it or some hesitate and then its to late...
Why do you think they used convicted killers in some of the prisions in the south to sit in the guard towers?????
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 22, 2012, 08:17 PM:
"Not particulary proud of it and probably regret the purchase"
That sounds a lot like me talking about Ruger#1's and Remington "custom shop" rifles.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 22, 2012, 08:34 PM:
I read that there is a particular issue of Batman Comic book, (not recent) that has the scenario play out in a movie theater.
Is that really what fucking Obama said! That dickwad can't get anything right.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 22, 2012, 08:41 PM:
He (obama) didn't compare the two incidents (i did), but thats what he called the Aurora shooting, and thats what he calls the Fort Hood shootings.
There use to be a federal law that mentioned "Terroristic Threats", around these parts it was used mostly against crooked cops.
Posted by JP (Member # 4095) on July 22, 2012, 09:46 PM:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, what was the tip off? Was he wearing Nike's, or what
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Don't know. We probably never will know, as it should be. We don't want to give future potential copycats any hints.
Heard on the news that he was not wearing the SWAT issued gas mask and one of the SWAT members challenged him on it.
Edit for spelling
[ July 22, 2012, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: JP ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 23, 2012, 02:13 PM:
Just heard something similar, among other things.
Posted by ARDave (Member # 3848) on July 25, 2012, 06:52 PM:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you have two elderly couples walking down the side walk, one set is clearly packing Colts on their side, the other set is holding hands with nothing... Who you gonna attack and rob? Just sayin...
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Just guessing but it depends on what each of them have that wouldbe worth takeing and how far the robber wanted to go..
The couple with the guns already delt there hand by walking around with them in the open..
The robber would most likely just shoot those two right from the get go and perhaps just take what he wanted from the other two without fireing a shot..
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Bullshit.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 25, 2012, 08:26 PM:
If you check around in the news colored kids are busting a cap on each other pretty reg. and in some cases both sides are packing.. By wearing a gun in the open just tells the other guy or wouldbe robber to get the drop on who they intend to rob first... I think the capital of Arkansas is right up there with DC as far as shooting go...
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on July 25, 2012, 10:38 PM:
quote:
I can see it all now, one ccw pulls out his pistol and then another and yet another from another part of the theater and they all start banging away not sure of who is or is'nt the bad guy and then you got all the by-standers in the theater dodgeing bullets from all sides..
I can see a guy protecting himself at a 7-eleven but not in a crowd of people, no good would become of it and there would be a much higher body count than what there was..
Not all bad guys wear body armor or even a mask when on a shooting spree and some times there is more than one shooter and then you have to throw in the CCW guys which scares the hell out of me if I was also packing as I would shoot at any or all the the sob that had a gun as well.
It was pretty simple back in the old days to tell them apart, either you had white skin or red skin..LOL
T-bag.....that is the stupidest shit I have ever had the displeasure of reading....at least your consistently stupid.....I mean that in a really nice way of course.
Someone with a CCW could have stopped this shortly after it started....regardless of what the toothless one says.
Posted by ARDave (Member # 3848) on July 26, 2012, 06:14 PM:
Wearing a gun in the open tells a would be robber: Go fuck with the next guy. Are there any exceptions to the rule? Yep. Bullies usually pick on the weak. The one's they think they can pick on. Easy targets. Little Rock is a tuff place. Not as bad as Pine Bluff or Memphis, but bad. Guess who dosen't give a damn. Me.
[ July 26, 2012, 06:15 PM: Message edited by: ARDave ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 26, 2012, 06:39 PM:
I kind of agree with this:
quote:
open tells a would be robber: Go fuck with the next guy
especially when it's impossible to get a CCW in California.
The problem with concealed carry, if you ask me, is that serious social work demands a firearm that doesn't lend itself to concealed carry. If it did, maybe the cops would carry concealed, I don't know?
A shoulder holster rig under a suit coat is quick and comfortable, but the stuff you have to stuff in your waistband tends to make what is in your pants slightly obvious. (I'm talking about a firearm, wise ass!)
I find a small semi auto to be very concealable, what I use is a Frasier 25ACP and I can conceal it in my hand or in practically any pocket, including a shirt pocket. Okay, it might look like a toy, but loaded with Glazers, it will mess up somebody's day, and they might wish they died on the spot.
The legal problems associated with defense with a firearm are deep and treacherous and it does cause one to pause and consider consequence. Very serious business.
Good hunting. El Bee
[ July 26, 2012, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 26, 2012, 07:53 PM:
quote:
Wearing a gun in the open tells a would be robber: Go fuck with the next guy. Are there any exceptions to the rule? Yep. Bullies usually pick on the weak. The one's they think they can pick on. Easy targets
Well if thats the case then why do so many COPS get shot by bad guys.. The bad guys know they are packing so why even mess with them.. Right!! They do because they don't give a rats ass and if you got something they want they will bust a cap on your's as well gun or no gun...
All the CCW is , is a security blank for those affraid of there own shadow..
Leonard brought up a good point, god help you if you don't use the gun for the right reason or if you hit a byestander as a CCW holder you are responsable for all of your bullets..LOL
Posted by ARDave (Member # 3848) on July 27, 2012, 03:41 AM:
Cops get shot at because they are chasing or at least pretending to chase someone who dosen't want caught. Tell you what... Don't carry a gun. See if I give a shit. If you think I walk around scared of my own shadow, or somebody else's shadow, you got the wrong guy. I carry a gun quite a bit. Piss on the law. I'm gonna try and take care of my family first, I'll deal with the court room later.
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on July 27, 2012, 04:29 AM:
quote:
T-bag.....that is the stupidest shit I have ever had the displeasure of reading....at least your consistently stupid.....
Glad to see the new year's resolution is wearing thin, JD. I like the old you better pertaining to TA.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2012, 08:23 AM:
There is a place in the Cosmos for all God's children. At least, I've heard it said?
Now, the question is, does he say stupid shit cold calculated, or is it natural and unconscious? The talent is there, I just wonder to what, we owe the debt?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 27, 2012, 10:02 AM:
"Well if thats the case then why do so many COPS get shot by bad guys.. The bad guys know they are packing so why even mess with them.. Right!! They do because they don't give a rats ass and if you got something they want they will bust a cap on your's as well gun or no gun...
All the CCW is , is a security blank for those affraid of there own shadow."
-------------------------------------
Now THAT statement could well be a world record winner in the Record book of stupid statements. If the bad guys wanted to kill a Policeman, and not caring which Policeman he kills, then his goal would be the easiest hit in existence. The marked car, the uniform, the badge. Drives down dark alleys checking buildings, answers every call for help that he gets. Talk about a walking, and talking target! I know several retired Policemen who carry concealed, I know them personally and I can tell you that they most definitely are NOT cowards. Only an empty headed idiot would a statement like that.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on July 27, 2012, 12:27 PM:
quote:
Now, the question is, does he say stupid shit cold calculated, or is it natural and unconscious? The talent is there, I just wonder to what, we owe the debt?
We owe it to the fact that he's a flaming liberal.......or maybe he's a flamer and a liberal, either way, stupid is as stupid does and in this case he's overflowing with stupid and it ends up getting all over everyone and everything around him, he hasn't uttered an intelligent word in his entire life. Of course I mean that in a very cordial and polite way.
CCW has been proven to reduce crime rates, of course those are facts and have nothing to do with t=bags reasoning or lack thereof, of course most LE agencies believe the same way as timmy.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 27, 2012, 03:10 PM:
I can't dispute the last paragraph. What seems so obvious to you and me is not understood by liberals. In other words, they have a mental illness. With cops, it's due to paranoia.
Good hunting. Lima Bravo
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on July 27, 2012, 05:30 PM:
In all fairness I can understand a little paranoia from cops, I just don't care to hear their opinion on the matter as law enforcement and CCW are nowhere near similar.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 28, 2012, 04:18 AM:
Wow JD it looks like we can be friends after all! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
I agree 100% that law enforcement and CCW/OC are different animals, and should be treated as such. I even believe the LE needs for ammunition are different than the needs for CCW.
Leonard, as far as cops being paranoid, which I understand is the prevailing theme here, we must realize that cops are trained to look for danger signs and react to them. This is what keeps them alive. I will loosely compare this to when you were on patrol in the jungles of Vietnam. I am most certain you and your squad/platoon looked for danger signs in hopes of spotting same before the danger could spot you.
Lastly to ARDave, American prisons are full of criminals who were put there by cops. Would you say that those criminals are in prison because cops were pretending to chase them?
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on July 28, 2012, 05:26 AM:
Situational Awareness! Its what keeps us safe from the job sight to the battlefield. Of course, someday, someone will develope an 'app' for that.
quote:
I even believe the LE needs for ammunition are different than the needs for CCW.
Could you explain this a little more?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 28, 2012, 07:28 AM:
LE has no need for cop killer bullets? Okay, bad jok. Yeah, I don't quite understand the distinction, either.
There was a pretty good movie about civilian and cop cooperation, not sure of the name; The Tower maybe? About the maniac that shot a bunch of people on a college campus. Just two people managed to get inside and sneak up the stairs and take the guy out. Kurt Russell was the shooter. Good movie.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 28, 2012, 10:38 AM:
quote:
I even believe the LE needs for ammunition are different than the needs for CCW.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Could you explain this a little more?
Sure Crossj. LE needs are slightly different than CCW needs. For example, as a state trooper, I might be more apt to fire through auto glass or auto body material than you, as a CCW'er. Therefore, I would want a bonded bullet, or a higher penetrating bullet than the average person with a CCW. As a responsible gun owner with a CCW, you may have to fire in defense of yourself or your family, but normally would not be shooting through auto body/glass. Your needs for a bullet might be different, like a lighter high velocity bullet that would tend to break up upon striking a barrier. For a home defense load I wouldn't necessarily want a bullet that will travel through five walls. I believe this is one of the reasons why Leonard likes a frangible bullet (Magsafe or Glaser rounds) that hit hard on a soft tissue target but break up when they contact hard material.
YMMV.
Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on July 28, 2012, 10:56 AM:
I think our society is turning out some real lunatics. There is a lot of truth in what you guys have already said. From mid-2003 until early 2010, I quit carrying. I had carried steady from 1988 until mid-2003. Now, I carry every day, wherever I go, a Glock 32. My shithole county has more crime and murders and shootings than a county it's size has a right to have. The only real individual cure I can see is just to get as far away from people as you can, to go find the smallest town you can that provides the most basic needs, and then move a little distance away from it. People are the problem, and some peoples more than others. 8 years, no more, maybe less, and I'm outta here. But wherever you go, wherever you live, you best be able to take care of and defend yourself, cuz that's the way it is in this country anymore.
Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on July 28, 2012, 11:10 AM:
49,
I buy and use Speer Gold Dots in my Glock 32 and my S&W 4006. Those are what I'm issued for my duty gun, so I tend to buy and carry them in some of my other guns, as well. I use Silvertips in my 1911 and my S & W 686. I've carried Silvertips in my 1911 since I bought it the day I turned 21 in 1978, and I figure the 145 .357 Silvertip is a good combination of speed, weight, and capacity to expand.
I carry the Glock off-duty and the rest are pretty much house guns, although I'll sometimes carry a handgun while I'm hunting.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 28, 2012, 02:06 PM:
Del I really like the .357 Sig. I tried hard to get my agency to switch over to it from 9mm. I am not really sure why my proposal was refused, but we are definately entrenched in the 9mm. Probbaly someone would have to do too much work to make the switch, but who knows?
I like your carry rotation!
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 28, 2012, 03:12 PM:
I understand CCW and LE are 2 totally different animals but I'm having a hard time getting my head around the idea of a legally armed man running away from some lunatic shooting innocent women and children.
Maybe we have bred a bunch of degenerates...
Posted by ARDave (Member # 3848) on July 28, 2012, 06:07 PM:
quote:
Lastly to ARDave, American prisons are full of criminals who were put there by cops. Would you say that those criminals are in prison because cops were pretending to chase them?
Nope. Just saying that some of them are chicken shits with a badge. Am I pointing at you? Nope. Take it how you want to.
[ July 28, 2012, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: ARDave ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 29, 2012, 02:38 AM:
Well okay then fair enough.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 29, 2012, 06:08 AM:
"Del I really like the .357 Sig. I tried hard to get my agency to switch over to it from 9mm. I am not really sure why my proposal was refused, but we are definately entrenched in the 9mm."
--------------------------------------
4949,
Why not move directly to the king of the man stoppers? I still prefer the .45 ACP. I have always believed that the Police departments made a mistake when they chose the 9 mm with ball ammo. Hole punchers yes, man stoppers no.
Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on July 29, 2012, 06:22 AM:
Rich,
That's what I carry on duty, an H&K USP 45.
However, not all women, nor even all men, can handle the recoil well enough to shoot it well, so most departments go with the 9mm or .40.
Back when I was looking to buy a new pistol, I did some reading and some research, and the 357 Sig cartridge has many positive qualities and few negative, so that's what I bought in a Glock. I chrono'ed the Speer 125 JHP earlier this year and it was going out at 1352 f.p.s., which is pretty speedy.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 29, 2012, 06:23 AM:
Having owned both 357SIG and 9MM, I have to say the 9 isn't too far behind when loaded right and proper bullets are used.
Rich I just got a 1911 in 45 and I'm kinda liking it but I've got faith in my 9MM.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 29, 2012, 07:27 AM:
quote:
4949,
Why not move directly to the king of the man stoppers? I still prefer the .45 ACP. I have always believed that the Police departments made a mistake when they chose the 9 mm with ball ammo. Hole punchers yes, man stoppers no.
Rich I didn't push for the vaunted .45, or even the .40, because I knew my agency would never go for it. I tried to sell the .357 Sig as a 9mm round with better ballistics. In the end, they didn't go for even that. As Del mentioned, they told me the "weaker" shooters couldn't handle the higher recoiling, more powerful rounds. Personally I disagree. If a weak shooter can't handle the gear necessary to do the job, they need to find another line of work. New Jersey and Indiana are the only two state patrol agencies who carry 9mm. And the only reason Indiana carries the 9 is because they had a bad batch of .40 cal Glock 22's, and out of frustration sent them back to Glock and replaced them with the tried and true 9mm Glock 17. In the interest of full disclosure, Louisiana allows its troopers the choice of a .40 or 9mm.
So basically, 98% of the troops who would benefit from a .45, .40, or .357 have to carry a 9mm due to 2% of the weak shooters out there. Makes sense, right?
quote:
Having owned both 357SIG and 9MM, I have to say the 9 isn't too far behind when loaded right and proper bullets are used.
Tom, for the record I have nothing against the 9mm. I just prefer it pushed faster to the +p+ level for law enforcement purposes (read Federal 9BPLE). For the reasons I gave your pal CrossJ above, I like more kinetic energy for auto barrier penetration in a light bullet, or the weight of a .45, preferably the +p version. But that's just me.
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on July 29, 2012, 07:36 AM:
To answer your question "Are we breeding degenerate nuts?" my answer is no. We are creating them. One needs to simply look at the video games and the crap on the tv and the internet to come to this conclusion. I just changed over to Direct TV so now I get all of the premium channels both in real time and past programs on demand for free for three months. Now there is a lot of good programming to be found but there is a whole lot of garbage too. Example: I liked the series Hell On Wheels, but was very disgusted watching an old Dogwood on demand this morning. Give me a break feeding murdered people to hogs. I watched only a portion of one Sparticus show and the homosexuality and brutality turned me completely off again. I wonder how may kids have parents that simply don't care what their children watch and this post modern media we have today totally desensitizes them to even lowest level of morality. Maybe this should be a whole new post Leonard and feel free to move it to one if you wish.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2012, 11:09 AM:
How about this little gem?
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/marines-pay-22m-to-go-back-to-their-old-guns-colt-45-caliber-pistols/?intcmp=trending
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 29, 2012, 01:48 PM:
quote:
How about this little gem?
Very nice..
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 29, 2012, 02:16 PM:
The model 11 is a good pistol with a dandy trigger. They are fairly reliable when ball ammo is used, but are famous for jamming when trying to cycle hollow points. The long distance that the round must travel, and the upward turn as it speeds up the feed ramp seems to be the problem. I went to a Beretta model 8045 Cougar myself. The trigger sucks, but the gun feeds anything I fill the clip with. The straight travel from clip to chamber, and the straight shot to get there (no uphill curve) is the magic solution I think. The Beretta's rotating bolt is just short of a miracle.
The Colt, and the 1911 clones can be tuned to cycle with nearly 100 percent reliability if you don't mind paying the expert pistol Smith to do it. Oh, and the "it kicks too much" complaint is pure horse pucky. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2012, 02:27 PM:
The only fault with a Combat Commander that I have noticed is the barrel should be ramped or throated, whatever you call it? A little trigger work and you should be good to go. Mine does not jamb with hardball or the tupperware capped Glazers, so I load one Glazer followed by 7 or 8 hardball.
At the range, I like the 200 grain Sierra handloads.
As far as recoil, it strikes me as a rather pleasant upward tilt, completely expected and controllable.
Good hunting. Lima Bravo
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 29, 2012, 02:36 PM:
What's funny is the slides cracked on all but one of the test pistols that was fired the required 12,000 rounds. Of course Larry Vickers said that any 16# recoil spring is done after 1000 rounds and any further firing is just beating the pistol to death.
http://soldiersystems.net/2012/07/20/marsoc-winning-colt-guns/
I'm sorry but give me a S&W M&P or even a Glock in 45 or 9MM anyday for a battle proven sidearm.
And yes my commander sized 1911 has a ramped barrel, is fun to shoot and easy to conceal but there's been alot of new technology in the past 101 years.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 29, 2012, 02:38 PM:
Oh and 49, +P+ is where the 9 should be loaded at and where I base my love for the 9MM.
If I need to bust out auto glass I'll use my machine gun...
Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on July 29, 2012, 03:31 PM:
My Mark 4 Series 70 has been reliable from Day 1. I've used hardball, Silvertips, Gold Dots, Golden Sabres, and Remington 185 +P's in it. Mods include an adjustable rear sight, grips, and a Swenson ambi safety. For most of my life I sleft with it under my pillow. It is still the great gun it was, but times have changed and there have been improvements since 1911. Given the firepower available to evildoers today, my USP for work and my Glock in 357 Sig bring me comfort these days, and they are comparitively light for the amount of rounds they carry.
Polishing feed ramps has always been one of the things you did to help ensure smooth feeding. Ammunition has also improved a lot since the 70's, with manufacturers learning how to design bullet ogives to promote smooth feeding and discourage jams. Even the 9mm, which wasn't all that back in the 70's, has benefited from improved bullet design and new powders and now is a pretty competent manstopper, albeit not in the hardball variant, as the military has learned.
The day I bought my .45 the two choices I considered were the 1911 or the Browning Hi-Power. I was a Cooper fan, and the choice was pretty easy, although I've always had and have great respect for the Hi-Power pistol.
I sincerely hope that the effectiveness of all my pistols remain in the theoretical, and never have to be tested in the real world.
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 29, 2012, 03:45 PM:
Speed kills! And about any modern hollow point with speed behind it kills faster.
Me i usually carry an old 2" S&W m 10 loaded with 158gr swchp's (semi wadcutter hollow points)@ 900fps. If you can hit what your shooting at, it don't matter.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2012, 04:26 PM:
New technology? I'm telling you, a S&W Lady Smith with handloaded 125 grain TNT's and and a full case of H110 will make a good account for itself, at least for 5 rounds. Perhaps an obsolete 38special, but still performs. No slide, no safety, no problem, conceals well and although I don't know how it would hold up to 12,000 rounds, for five rounds, I would bet my life on it. Unless there are six of them? (I'm not even sure what a 357 sig is?)
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 29, 2012, 04:36 PM:
The 357 sig is the 40S&W round necked down to .355 (9mm), loaded to max pressure ie: 125gr bullet @1400 fps
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 29, 2012, 05:05 PM:
I remember when Colt came out with the Delta Elite in 10mm. EVERYONE of them sold in Ada Okla suffered cracked slides shooting factory ammo. I called Colt to send a couple of them back for repair, factory rep claimed faulty ammo. But they had to fix them or buy them back. 1911's are great guns unless you have something better.
Posted by ARDave (Member # 3848) on July 29, 2012, 06:07 PM:
quote:
To answer your question "Are we breeding degenerate nuts?" my answer is no. We are creating them. One needs to simply look at the video games and the crap on the tv and the internet to come to this conclusion. I just changed over to Direct TV so now I get all of the premium channels both in real time and past programs on demand for free for three months. Now there is a lot of good programming to be found but there is a whole lot of garbage too. Example: I liked the series Hell On Wheels, but was very disgusted watching an old Dogwood on demand this morning. Give me a break feeding murdered people to hogs. I watched only a portion of one Sparticus show and the homosexuality and brutality turned me completely off again. I wonder how may kids have parents that simply don't care what their children watch and this post modern media we have today totally desensitizes them to even lowest level of morality. Maybe this should be a whole new post Leonard and feel free to move it to one if you wish.
Now thats a true statement.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2012, 06:31 PM:
Oh, okay. Nothing new under the sun, Bain and Davis made a necked down .45/357 at least 30 years ago. Have not heard much lately?
Good hunting. LB
PS maybe 40 years ago?
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 29, 2012, 06:37 PM:
I've watched lots of those movies and not once did I get the urge to go shoot up a place.
Kinda like blameing the AR for other stupid peoples actions..
I think it just boils down to parenting and how the parents teach there kids or not teach them enough or spend enough time with them...Also liveing in a bad neighberhood don't help much either....
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 29, 2012, 06:42 PM:
Para Ordance use to sell a 9 x 25 (based on the 10mm round), but it beat the shit out of 1911 frames using a single recoil spring of any weight.
Glock had the same problem when first introduced in all caliber's until they changed chamber dimentions and went to a captured dual recoil spring. If anyone has seen a blown up Glock, you will reach for anything with a metal grip frame every time thereafter.
[ July 29, 2012, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Prune Picker ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2012, 06:44 PM:
Hah! You choose to live in Minneesota, pal. All they really know is knotty pine, whitetails and walleyes.
Good hunting. LB
PS oh, and -30˚ 8 month winters, and skeeters
Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on July 29, 2012, 07:08 PM:
There's a website that deals with Glock ka-booms, something about an unsupported chamber, and it seems to be more common in calibers other than 9mm. Part of the prob seemed to be a lack of cleaning, and maybe using plain lead bullets, although there was one documented ka-boom involving a LEO with a factory load. So far, so good with mine.
I have a S&W 1006 around, too. A .40 caliber 175 Silvertip @1250 isn't too shabby, either. There was a lot of talk at the time about the Delta Elites not standing up to the 10mm too well. In a 1911 I prefer it in the original .45 ACP flavor. Strangely enough, I've handled Kimbers, and none of them feel as good in the hand as my old Mark 4 Series 70. The grip just feels different on them, nowhere near as natural and comfortable.
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 29, 2012, 07:37 PM:
Del , the problems i saw in the Glocks was mostly Gen 1, 10mm & 40S&W. To get the proper angle on the barrels, so they would feed any style of bullets they removed valueable .000's that left the case unsupported (like the old style 38 super race guns). A local p d bought the Full Size guns in 40 S&W along with 20'000 rounds of Rem, Win, & Federal ammo. My pal bought all the fired brass and between us , tried to reload them. The case heads were so distorted (egg shaped) that we threw ALL of the Win brass away. WE reported it to the P D . When the Glock rep arrived he recalled all the guns & replaced the barrels & "i think" recoil springs to the dual captured type.
I had posted the wrong mod Pistol. M21 is a 45acp. Sorry for error.
[ July 29, 2012, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Prune Picker ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 29, 2012, 07:52 PM:
You could of stayed Leonard or moved back and you would'nt need to buy all those selfdefense guns and spent the money on hunting coyotes instead..
Don't have coyotes here by the thousands but we have plenty of other things to hunt and trap and I can walk down a road and not worry about being shot at..LOL
Every mourning on the way to work we have people walking the road shoulders for exersize and I see them again on the way home. Funny thing is I never saw one person packing a handgun..
Heck even when I hunt the Res. and pull over to look at a map or just check the drainages I have ranchers there wives or even there kids stop to ask if I'm ok...
This is truely the good life and I thank God I don't live where some of you do and have to look over your shoulder every minute of the day..
Only saw one skeeter this summer and good thing I had my CCW to carry a fly swater, got the little fellow on the first swat... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 29, 2012, 08:31 PM:
357 SIG 125gr boolit @ 1400fps
9MM 115gr boolit Win Ranger +P+ @ 1361fps out of my S&W M&P through Prune Pickers Ohler.
My reloads run 1279fps with Mikey's old load.
Not much difference to me.
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 29, 2012, 08:41 PM:
I was looking at those "non expanding" hollow point winchester slugs today. Cops swear that the hollow point was clogged by the wood backstop. I laugh and tell them how a 38 spl hollow point nearly turns itself inside out. And the Gold dots & Sierra Hollow Points expand to 65 cal in the same backstop.
If i'm shooting win factory ammo it has & will be Silver Tips.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 29, 2012, 08:43 PM:
Interesting round that B&D, I had one maybe 20years ago, was a S&W M27, nickled with 4" barrel. They were based on the .44 mag case, not the .45, and necked down to .357. Plagued with one major problem though, after maybe two cylinders, you needed a double jack to wack the ejector rod hard enough to extract the cartridges. I more than once, thought the ejector rod would come out the other side of my hand after smacking it, of course, it turned out to be one of the many pieces that made their way into other hands, but had fun playing with it.
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 29, 2012, 09:12 PM:
AZ, Did you have an extra cylinder or did they ream the orginial ? In all the years i have hunted with & shot handguns i have never seen a 357 BD. I have shot 44's until they had to go back to S&W for "lyposuction" . Do you still shoot hand guns ?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 29, 2012, 09:24 PM:
Are you saying they didn't make one based on the 45ACP cartridge? I seem to recall that they did?
Good hunting. El Bee
PS does he shoot handgun? He's a friggin' Xpert. (Champion)
[ July 29, 2012, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 29, 2012, 09:37 PM:
Leonard , i have seen the 357 45 round. I at one time owned a 41 Avenger , it was a 41 cal (.41 mag bullet) in a necked down 45 acp case. The theory was necked down, getting more speed than a 45 could reliably offer at same pressures found in 45acp.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 30, 2012, 06:13 AM:
Ive seen .45acp necked down to several different calibers Leonard, including .357, I just don't believe it was a propietary B&D cartridge?
One of our regular club members, a local deputy had one, and during a local match, he was swapping out barrels so he could shoot in two categories. The dumb shit he was, he eventually had the .45 barrel in, but had a belt full of magazines that held the .45-.357 ammunition.
He even hit a target or two, but most rounds bounced down the tube and went gawd knows where down range.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on July 30, 2012, 08:50 AM:
Everyone has a right to mess around by necking down a .45 ACP if they want to, but I see it as fickle. Neck it down so it will shoot a smaller bullet at slightly faster velocity and expand back to .451 when it strikes meat? I prefer to simply shoot a plain old .45 ACP with the ability to use expanding bullets if I want to.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 30, 2012, 09:29 AM:
I agree with that, but finding an expanding bullet at 800fps is the problem, if it is a problem?
Good hunting. Lima Bravo
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on July 30, 2012, 09:40 AM:
Call me old fashioned but I am still partial to 38 wadcutters.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 30, 2012, 10:47 AM:
I think there is a level beyond old fashioned, Jay. It's called DINOSAUR. Are you looking for neat round holes in a target?
Good talking at you at the trappers convention!
Good hunting. Lima Brav o
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 30, 2012, 12:02 PM:
The reason for necking down the 45acp(by me) was because the 1911 guns were easy to come by, don't have cylinder gap, no timing issues, could buy barrels cheaply, and simply remove the takedown lever & bushing to change to a different caliber. It was and is difficult to do the same to most revolvers without special tools and hours of andjstments.
As to the 45acp dragging on hind tit, the fmj ROUND NOSE is the ugly sister , and as Leonard said it was difficult to get a bullet to expand @ 800 fps & STILL FEED RELIABLY in a 100+ yr old designed gun.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on July 30, 2012, 12:41 PM:
I still carry full wadcutters in my small frame revolvers, at least those that are for "social work".
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 30, 2012, 01:45 PM:
A 148gr pure lead wadcutter in 38spl. will make an aggressor real sick, really fast. If you are using the hollow base wc , with the hollow end showing, it tends to offer an increased hydraulic shock that really does work. The short barreled "J frame" size revolvers work better with a blunt nosed bullet, than about any round nosed 38 cal bullet ever did.
I use the Speer 158gr. pure lead H.P. because i can get it to expand at 900fps, which is about max vel in a 2", 38spl and not destroy the gun i'm using.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 30, 2012, 02:27 PM:
The newer 3rd and 4th generation Glocks have improved chamber/case head support.
Some of you guys might like Underwood Ammunition's loadings:
9mm 124 grain +p+
http://www.underwoodammo.com/9mmlugerp124graingolddotjackethollowpointboxof50-2.aspx
For comparison this is their .357 Sig load:
http://www.underwoodammo.com/357sig125graingolddotjacketedhollowpointboxof50.aspx
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 30, 2012, 03:11 PM:
49, what makes me happy when talking about Glocks is, everytime that there's been a problem with anyone of them, they seem to fix the problem without making excuses and telling people they don't know what they are talking about. That tells me they want your business. S&W and Colt have been hot and cold over similar issues for the past 40 years. And the unsupported chamber problems that caused case ruptures isn't a Glock only problem.
Thanks for posting the video, it shows legit info that can help anyone looking for good ammo.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 30, 2012, 04:56 PM:
You're welcome, Mike. I'm glad they were appreciated.
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