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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 01, 2012, 06:18 AM:
 
My neighbor took off & entrusted his animals to some dip-stick that let the water go dry. A couple of days later a sorry looking half grown pit bull showed up on my patio. A clumsy mutt that just wants to play & get attention if ever there was one. Against good advice from a friend of mine, I'm keeping the critter.
So..............anybody have any experience with this breed?? Anything I need to do or watch out for?? It's nice to have a dog again, but I'm not sure that this one came with a brain. It seems to have had zero training.
Thanx!!!
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 01, 2012, 06:39 AM:
 
My sister had one when we were younger because she just HAD to have one. I had heard the horror stories so I was skeptical and didnt like it much to begin with. BUT it turned out to be a great dog. Got along with my Lab and my parents Bischon. One night came home late and let the dogs out. The pit and lab came out of the yard but the bichon didnt. Pit bull had mauled it by the neck. Granted I dont have much use for a Bichon and dispise little barky dogs. It was still shocking that it happened.

My one word of advice is that when they snap they snap. They are prone to it and it happens, thats a fact. I would never in my life let one around kids. They can be great dogs and I was attached to it a little but that one momment they lose it can be the death of a kid. Not worth it IMO
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 01, 2012, 06:59 AM:
 
They can be GREAT pets and family dogs.

Pitbulls are just dogs, but they are very powerful & capable of doing alot of damage in a very short time.
And, given the origin of the breed, I'd ALWAYS remain wary of a pitbull around other dogs. They tend to be very trusting of people and will allow kids to literally maul them without reaction.

If you keep the dog, spay/neuter immediately.

Also, buy you a "breaking stick" online and learn how to use it. Carry it along on walks, and have it close by the house.
Heaven forbid your dog clamps down on something it shouldn't, you'll be well capable of ending it quickly...

If your dog shows ANY kind of aggression toward you, or especially toward a child, CULL IT. I never faulted a dog for barking at strangers at home, that's natural protective behavior. But human aggression cannot be tolerated AT ALL.

You will want to start in on basic obedience right away. Being as strong as they are, you don't want to be towed around during a walk. And you certainly don't want an intimidating dog jumping up on strangers!!!

Praise the good behavior, correct the bad. When you correct bad behavior, ALWAYS show the dog what the right behavior is, then give praise to make a dimple in that brain & end on a positive note!

IE, dog jumps up, it is wanting attention. So simply correct the jumping with leash and say "NO jump!"
Give "SIT" command, then praise that good behavior. Now the dog gets the attention it wants, but under YOUR rules. Even block headed pitbulls learn this stuff, trust me

Remember, a tired dog is a happy dog!
Pitbulls have HUGE gas tanks, so give it lots of exercise to burn that energy off.

This is an old pic of one of my bulldogs.
He had an A+++ personality with people!


good luck, dude!

[ May 01, 2012, 07:03 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 01, 2012, 07:41 AM:
 
I've had bulldog, and bulldog crosses over the years. I never had problems with aggression towards people. I have seen them show aggression to other dogs though. Fred gives some excellent advice. Bull dogs are not for a 'novice' dog owner, or for someone who wants to be a part time owner.



 

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Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on May 01, 2012, 08:00 AM:
 
My sister is a true-blue dog lover. She has had a couple pit bull's over the years. The first one was always timid as heck and when it died she replaced it with another pit four years ago.

The second pit, just a few months ago, turned on one of her dachhunds and killed it while she was at work. She said there had been a few small signs of aggression over the past couple of years, but she did not think it would happen as these two dogs had been together for several years.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 01, 2012, 09:01 AM:
 
I'll echo what Fred said. A terrier is a terrier is a terrier. I've lived with a pit bull for 16 or 18 years now I guess. Not the same one. First one was a neutered male and he died a few years ago. He was dumb as a box of rocks, but still a great pet, pal, and companion. Got along great with my Aussie, but while staying with my brother once, got into an altercation with his boston TERRIER. That didn't end well for the little dog. I never saw any aggression in Wyatt, but he would only take so much from other dogs before he reacted. I know in my heart that the little dog started that fray, but Wyatt ended it and there were no witnesses. My Aussie is a better watch dog and more defensive of his territory than Wyatt ever thought about being. Wyatt would have invited a burglar in, but his looks deterred.

The one that lives here now is a spayed female and she's quite a bit more gifted in the smarts department. A little more protective of our space, but still a great pet.

They are powerful and have a very high pain tolerance. Unless you're lucky and have one that responds well, once something starts, it can be very hard to stop and can very easily end badly. I liken living with a pit bull to being a gun owner, except the pit bull can go off by itself. Responsibility is the key. Don't allow things to happen that can go badly for you or the dog. Expect the best, but have a contingency for the worst. Socialize the dog, but prevent situations that could get either of you into trouble. Being a pit bull's human comes with a moral obligation to keep it from becoming THAT dog. In the end, it's just a dog, and dogs do what they do. Bad dogs come in all shapes and sizes. So do good ones.

Stereotyping and profiling have ruined the breed's reputation. It's up to their human counterpart to help with that. First it was German Shepards, then it was Doberman Pinschers, then Rottwielers, now pits. They're all products of their environment and human counterpart. Petey, from the Little Rascals, was a pit bull. Nobody was scared of him.

I rarely participate in discussions about pit bulls, especially over the internet. No doubt that a K9 racist will say that the entire breed should be exterminated. They may have what they feel is very good reason to say that. But making a blanket statement about a breed that I have compassion and affection for is akin to saying something about someone's kid. Emotions run high.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 01, 2012, 09:12 AM:
 
My terriers will make short work of small animals, unfortunately some peoples pets fall into that catagory, be careful. I'm a little more tolerant on the "people aggression" issue.....if you come to my house when I'm gone and you survive you WILL need stitches, if you come to my house when I'm home you will need a towel to get all the slobbers off your face, terriers are very smart and loving but they also love to kill things.....don't forget that. They also have more character than a lot of other dog breeds......you'll either love it or hate it, Terriers are not for wussies or people with no time.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 01, 2012, 09:33 AM:
 
If you've got 15 minutes or so, here's a little pit bull humor...

I got a dog!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 01, 2012, 11:25 AM:
 
Okay, maybe I need sensitivity training? But, when it comes to man's best friend, I have a hard time with breeds that have a reputation for killing humans, without provocation. And, yes, it happens.

I just wonder, the world is full of companion dogs, dogs that would do anything for a little praise and a scratch behind the ear. And, I am a dog person, in spite of the fact that I have my wife's cat, I think a lot more of dogs than cats.

My son has four dogs, two Chihuahuas, a lab/german Shepard mix and what "looked" to me like a pit bull? A rescue dog that was abandoned and left at a Vet by a neighbor. But, son said she's a sweet dog and she's a bulldog, not a pit bull. Well, I found out that she does have a sweet disposition, but she sorta looks like a pitbull and me with my preconceived ideas, I just don't like aggressive dogs, and aggressive looking dogs.

Perhaps a flaw in my character, I don't know, but hey some people don't like poodles and other little yappers. I

I remember walking down the street in the old neighborhood, years ago. There wasn't a sidewalk and I was between the pavement and a lawn when a large boxer type of dog came running up to me, viscously barking at me from extremely close proximity. I stopped and faced the dog and the owner was on his steps, at the house watching the whole thing.

As I tried to move, the dog maintained his threatening position and I was beginning to think that I might have to fight and kill this dog while the owner watched, amused.

I asked him to curb his dog and the guy said, "hey, he is on his property". This response forced me into traffic and the middle of the street, so I turned around and went back home instead of over to the Little League field when I was headed. What I REALLY wanted to do was get a gun and walk past that house again and blow the shit out of that miserable animal in front of the horrified and ignorant owner, but that would wind up ruining my day, too.

So, the problem is people that own aggressive dogs and they do not get sued enough. I don't know what it is about people that need a dog that is so aggressive toward humans, but that behavior does get passed along in the genes and this is where my natural love for "man's best friend" is tempered with a strong desire to put a bullet in the head of dogs that threaten people, and I do not give a shit about those that talk about protecting their house and property and never give any thought that the animal can't figure out every situation.

My niece, Susan. When she was about seven or so, she went into the back yard, across the street to play with the neighbor girl. Well, their German Shepard attacked Susan and practically tore her scalp off, requiring something less than 200 stitches, (luckily) all of them within the hairline so it didn't show. She's in her forties, now.

But, this girl was/is a bad seed, always doing something bizarre. I can't really go into the things she has done but it's extensive, AND. I blame it all on the traumatic event of the dog mauling when she was a child.

Well, I have mentioned her before, she was in "juvie" for several years and managed to get her hands on her settlement money on the day she turned 18 and was released from jail. I don't have any proof, but I think that little girl became emotionally scarred by the mauling and it has impacted her entire life.

Vicious dogs, I do not like them. Vicious breeds, I think I'm guilty of stereotyping?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by JP (Member # 4095) on May 01, 2012, 11:58 AM:
 

 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 01, 2012, 04:27 PM:
 
I'm a mailman. 'Nuff said, but I'll still say more.

I hate pits. Sure, maybe at one time or another, they were a great family animal. But, thanks to generation after generation of assholes selectively breeding them to be four-legged phallic symbols, I guess I'm what has been called here a K9 racist.

Fact is, we have more problems these days with boxers, but only because even walking down the street with a partial pit will land you in jail in this town, and any dog that even charges me as Leonard decribed will put its owner before the local magistrate who has been very mailman friendly since I began my job 14 years ago. I've personally been credited with sending four different dogs to the gas chamber, and only one of them actually got hold of me. After that one, the boss asked me if I was okay to keep carrying and I told him that I kill "dogs" for fun and recreation. Let me carry something with a bit more bite than the weak-assed pepper spray they give us and I could guaran-damned-tee him that once word got around, there wouldn't be so much as a hint of a dog problem in this town for some time.

Fact is, I used to select hound pups at 5 weeks old by putting them down and seeing what they did. A pup is a product of its breeding, and the best pups would put that little nose on the ground and begin "hunting", even if they didn't know what they were doing it for. In the absence of the very best discipline and training, a dog will do what it is hard wired and bred to do. Often with disastrous results. It would only take once. And FYI, if your dog displays aggressively toward a person with legitimate reasons for being there, at least in Kansas, you will be cited for possession of a viscious animal, your animal will be seized, often euthenized, and your homeowner's insurance company will be sued by the Postal Service and, in most cases, your insurance will be canceled until they receive proof that the dog has been put down or removed from the property. Seen it happen many times.

Having an animal around that could possibly "go off" at any moment for reasons you and I can't always discern is, IMO, grossly irresponsible and a huge liability exposure, not to mention the impact it has on the victim. Trust me when I say that each and every one of you has someone at your front door or near your home six days a week, and he or she has every right to be there doing their job. Whether that's the mailman, the meter reader, water department guy, paperboy, whoever, just because you aren't home doesn't mean there aren't people around there for legitimate reasons. Do you trust that dog enough to allow it to make its own judgment calls and keep your butt out of prison? You are criminally responsible for the actions of your animal and nearly 3000 mail carriers a year are attacked and injured by "pets" even after the owner says, "don't worry, he won't bite." Like hell!

Kill 'em all.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 01, 2012, 05:09 PM:
 
gotta agree with cdog.
i personally have very limited experience with pitts and i don't want any.
gang bangers and hog hunters use them. 1 for utility use the other to be "cool".
ANY breed can have a bad egg. Pitts seem to have a higher % rate.
you do not know the history of this dog or it's liniage. :finder beware:. personally, no matter how friendly it seems to be now, i would not hesitate to terminate it's existance. not worth the HUGE finacial loss you may occur if something happens
get a lab pup!!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 01, 2012, 07:05 PM:
 
Like I said, this bulldog is very good with the Chihuahuas, it definitely has a pleasant disposition, but it looks a lot like a pitbull, if you ask me? I can't really see it going off on somebody, but I suspect there are thousands of owners that never thought their dog would snap and turn viscous. And, this thing is powerfully built, if she wanted to, she could kill both small dogs and the cats without working up a sweat.

I know it's terrible to stereotype dogs, but I really think we could do without them. By the way, pits, rottweilers and dobermans are the three dogs the Army will not transport, to Alaska or Europe. Sounds like the Army stereotypes, too.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 01, 2012, 08:38 PM:
 
Much thanx for the replies.
I now have the back yard / patio area closed off & the dog no longer runs loose, unlike half the dogs in this county.
I spoke with the former owner & was assured that the dog is pedigreed & has papers & all of that stuff that doesn't impress me much.
So far, it's a slobber monster that's good with the cats, but the wife & I have agreed that at the first sign of aggression the animal gets put down.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 01, 2012, 09:20 PM:
 
An interesting thing about this pitbull looking bulldog. She has the heart and instincts of a BIRD DOG! I have noticed the attention she gives to all kinds of birds and it's "lock on" just like a friggin' pointer. Kind of funny looking, but I really think this dog would be a hell of a bird dog; although I don't have a clue if she would retrieve?

I had a poodle, years ago that was a hell of a bird dog. OMG, quick and protective of her food bowl, she had great instincts. My coon hound was actually afraid of birds. As a pup, she was sniffing a little parakeet and it bit her right on the nose. That did it. Never even bothered to look at any bird again, scared of them....also kind of funny.

Good hunting. LB

[ May 01, 2012, 09:21 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 01, 2012, 10:24 PM:
 

quote:

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Having an animal around that could possibly "go off" at any moment for reasons you and I can't always discern is, IMO, grossly irresponsible and a huge liability exposure, not to mention the impact it has on the victim. Trust me when I say that each and every one of you has someone at your front door or near your home six days a week, and he or she has every right to be there doing their job. Whether that's the mailman, the meter reader, water department guy, paperboy, whoever, just because you aren't home doesn't mean there aren't people around there for legitimate reasons. Do you trust that dog enough to allow it to make its own judgment calls and keep your butt out of prison? You are criminally responsible for the actions of your animal and nearly 3000 mail carriers a year are attacked and injured by "pets" even after the owner says, "don't worry, he won't bite." Like hell!

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NO, YOU DON'T HAVE a Right to be on my property. We don't get the paper, the mailbox is at the road, we have our own well, there is no gas meter and the electric meter is at the road too, not to mention my dogs are NEVER loose so if you enter my house I can guaran-damn-tee that you WILL in fact get your ass bit and I'll be sure to give them a scooby snack for doing a good job of it and the only law suit will be when you sue me for kicking your ass for breaking and entering.....that is if you survive the dogs....I would never beat a man that was on his death bed but I wouldn't have a problem putting the boots to some dipshit who was only bleeding profusely after breaking and entering.

Of course I'm only pokin at ya Lance....I fully understand what your talking about and support what your saying under those circustances but not everyone with dog is a dipshit just because you have to deal with a few.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 01, 2012, 11:43 PM:
 
I really like dogs. Dogs have been molded and shaped, (bizarrely, in some cases) by humans into an endless variety by appearance and by talent and ability.

It's just great to see highly trained and gifted dogs in the field. Seeing Eye dogs, and others specially trained even to detect cancer, it seems there is no end to the dog's dedication and actual devotion to mankind.

I just can't square that service and devotion with these fucking Premo canera(sp) types that those two San Francisco assholes allowed to kill a neighboring apartment dweller. (possibly because she was lesbian?) Okay, I don't know how much time they served but the dogs are an abomination, in my eyes. You might as well have a god damned bengal tiger on a leash.

I have seen black boys with pit bulls on a rope encourage their dogs to intimidate other dogs. Yeah, seen it myself, and it's sick. The dogs think they are doing something their owners want them to do, perfectly understandable and done everyday, except the aggression that is being encouraged is like a time bomb. Part of the culture; a sorry ass part of the culture.

I blame the humans but what do you do with their creations? The pounds and humane society's are flooded with pit bulls that they can't place, and won't place and unfortunately, a lot of these dogs are innocent, and good natured, and some aren't. Unfortunate.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 02, 2012, 06:52 AM:
 
It is my strong opinion that pit bulls, Rotwielers, and Doberman's should be banned from the city limits.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 02, 2012, 09:03 AM:
 
Koko, I think I can see where you're coming from on this situation and wish you the best.

That being said, I'm with Mr Cronks statement.
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on May 02, 2012, 11:37 AM:
 
I suspect that the laws of genetics rule with Pit Bulls in the same manner as other species. My soninlaw, Daryl, and his brother, Shawn, have been raising pit bulls for over 30 years, with not once instance of bad behavior. They are very strict with their bloodlines and protecting same. Furthermore, two kennel owners in Florida have had the same record raising dogs out of the same bloodlines, with no outcrosses to unknown bloodlines. I feel sure the owners have a lot to do with the temperament of the dogs of they raise. You can raise a beagle to be mean as hell if you choose to.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 02, 2012, 12:55 PM:
 
True enough, Al. But, a Beagle doesn't have the strength of jaw, nor the instinct to go for the throat as does the pit bull. All you have to do is a very cursory examination of history and the record. What were pit bulls bred and trained to do? There you go. You can dress them with ribbons and bows for twenty years and they still have the instinct. To kill.

Whereas, what is a Beagle bred and trained to do? Wag his tail and chase squirrels.

It's a pretty simple concept, really.

Good hunting. LB

edit: PS what is the attraction with pit bulls? To my eyes, they are very unattractive dogs. You know how an Afghan is just a gorgeous dog? Like, is a Golden Retriever (whatever their shortcomings) they are a beautiful breed. I could name many more but what is there to admire about a pit bull? Personally, I think they are particularly ugly, so apparently? people keep them because of what they can do. Which is; kill. Or, where is my logic flawed?

[ May 02, 2012, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 02, 2012, 02:29 PM:
 
JD,

All I can say is Fed Ex, UPS, your rural carrier and any LEO that might be there to serve papers, or deliver a package that won't fit in your mailbox or someone who mistakes your house as someone else's. I've had dogs come through picture windows and storm doors to get me before. I know you're just yanking my chain, but I have over 400 dogs of various sizes and temperaments on my route and certain breeds are notoriously bad, and certain owners know just enough to be dangerous when it comes to handling their animals and what they are convinced their dog either is or is not capable of doing.

An example. About twenty years ago, I was on duty at EMS when we were toned out to a rural address for a child that had been bit by a dog. Turns out this 4 year old had been at her grandparent's farm where they were caring for the girl's uncle's Akita. The dog was probably 75 pounds, the girl, maybe 45. When we got there, the "dog bite" was actually a full blown mauling and you couldn't even tell what the girl looked like due to blood, swelling and trauma. We had to fully immobilize her due to the fact that her entire head, neck and face were torn to hell.

At the hospital, while we're putting our truck back together, grandpa comes out to thank us for our response. He tells me that he doesn't understand why the dog snapped. After all, his son had trained it as an attack dog but it had never been vicious. I asked him if his son was a professional dog trainer and he said no, he'd just been training him to attack. Well, having had some experience with hounds, and knowing a lot of k9 officers with truly trained and certified dogs,I know a little bit about training dogs so I told him that a properly trained "attack dog", if such a thing actually exists, is not allowed to make the decision to violently attack a human being unless given the command to do so. Sure, there are times, such as when the handler is attacked and he hits the panic button on his belt that opens his patrol unit door to let the dog out, that a dog can act on its own, but for the most part, the dog is required to do only what its handler commands it to do, and most of those commends are taught and learned in a foreign language to prevent just anyone from confusing the dog. Most I've seen were trained in Dutch.

If I had a trained security dog in my house, it would be trained and certified to hold an intruder at bay until such time as the intruder attacked someone in my family, or to intimidate without injuring, but to allow the dog to exercise its own judgment in who to attack and who not to attack, when and when not, is, for lack of a better name, a shit volcano waiting to erupt. Just my additional .04.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 02, 2012, 02:35 PM:
 
As with many things, beauty is in the eye of the beholder...


I admire the powerful physique and bulging muscles on these dogs. Afghans and Goldens don't do much for me. Go figure?

I used to be a paperboy for several years back in the dark ages when young kids were allowed to do that sort of thing. You know, overload a bike with newspapers, and then ride unescorted through the neighborhood without a helmet. I even suffered a few dog bites. Nothing that ever required anything more than basic first aid. Police and paramedics would probably be needed these days....and an injury specialist law firm. After somebody told me and my parents that bite incidents were required to be reported to rabies control by law, a couple of the offenders had to undergo house arrest for a period of time. Never any legal action though. Damn, missed my chance to have somebody's pet executed. What a great accomplishment that would have been.

I guess I'm just more open to the idea that a certain breed isn't automatically a flesh tearing landshark. Breeding may give them the physiology to be very good at it, but piece of shit humans bring/brought it out. Gun analogy again...just because Jered Loughner went nuts with a Glock in Tucson doesn't mean every Glock owner will. So should we ban Glocks and destroy them all, or can the vast majority of owners be responsible with them?
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on May 02, 2012, 02:38 PM:
 
Leonard, I understand the difference in power potential between a pit bull and a beagle, but I am pointing out the difference in genetics within a breed. Daryl and Shawn have raised some beautiful pit bulls, smart as can be too. I don't believe it is just good luck that their dogs are consistently well mannered.

P.S. All our beagles just naturally ran rabbits (lol)
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 02, 2012, 02:56 PM:
 
I'm a dog lover Lance but if I was in your position I would kill all of em, most every dog is territorial and your job require you to be on their home turf.....what a pain for you.

BTW, my dogs aren't mean or aggressive unless you enter my house without one of us being there, the house is locked so any intruder would be unwise to proceed after hearing the warnings.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 02, 2012, 04:14 PM:
 
Koko. i used to live in a rural area. neigbors about 1/4 mile from me took in a stray. i can't remember for sure but was a mutt that had some pit character looks to it. i was mowing the yard one morning and my daughter was playing on the swingset. she was 3 years old. i heard a terrible scream and turned around and seen "thier" dog running from "my" yard. my daughter had to have 58? stitches to her face. tore her eyelid plum off. surgeons tried to replace it but could not. the dogs "new owner" claimed it was not his dog. in the end, it ended up costing him 85,000 $. i know this does not exactally pertain to you, just something to knaw on!!
here's my daughter at 19. she's a drop-dead gorgeous women but if you look close (in person), you can see very well where the stitches were. she also has no bottom eyelid,therefor no eyelashes.


you don't seem to be the kind that needs the "cool factor" behind your name so why take the risk??. there are PLENTY of dogs to be had.
edited to add: sorry Jiminaz, this ones a bit more handsome (grin)

 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 02, 2012, 04:19 PM:
 
Looks like jimbo has a bulldog, or am I mistaken?


 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 02, 2012, 09:28 PM:
 
I'm taking this all in........the good & the bad. The dog will definitely be on lifetime probation. So far, we've seen zero sign of aggression on any level. Even when playing. The wife set up a kiddie wading pool filled with water & commented "Let's see her run out of water NOW". The dog climbs in the pool & lays down in the water to drink.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 02, 2012, 09:36 PM:
 
Koko. congrats on the dog and enjoy.. I think everyone pretty much covered the pro's and con.s so I have nothing to add.. Only advice is have fun with the dog and spend some time with it as much as you can for the first month and things should go smoothly. I can picture both of you sitting on the deck with two lines of hotties waiting to get there hugs in from both of you..LOL

Oh! And we want pic.s.

[ May 02, 2012, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 02, 2012, 09:51 PM:
 
Slaps head! Hey, yeah. Everybody put up dog pictures but koko. What's up with that?

Good hunting. Le Boulie
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 02, 2012, 11:13 PM:
 
bearhunter, you'll NEVER hear me say anything detrimental about labs. Had a chocolate from my late 20s to early 40s and I described her as a doggy genious. Smartest, best behaved, most loyal dog I've ever been around. Figured another lab would never have a fair chance following her act, so I won't ever go back to that well.

ETA:
You can call her a bulldog if you want to Leonard. What's in a name? When I'm trying to be PC, so people won't snatch up their children and run away, I tell them she's a terrier mix...which she is.

[ May 02, 2012, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: jimanaz ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 03, 2012, 08:00 AM:
 
Well, I might catch some slack for this, but I think there is a troubling correlation between the mindset of those who openly hate "pitbulls" and those who openly speak out against "guns".

That statement is not meant to compare the two as potentially deadly, but rather to illustrate that both opinions are fueled by fear and ignorance of them.

IMHO, that mentality is driven by fear & ingorance of what is not fully understand, or merely based on what has been regurgitated by the media to paint a picture of horror to sell news.

Heck, look how the anti-gun media happliy lumps & labels all semi auto firearm as "assault weapons". Similarly, any dog that looks the part is AUTOMATICALLY labeled "pitbull".

Both keywords sell news and people are just dumb enough to believe what they read...

That's not to say a "pitbull" can't be potentially dangerous, but not any moreso than any other strong breed.
Heck, people friggin' LOVE German Shepards, yet they were developed to be ANTI HUMAN war dogs. What a great idea to have as a family pet, huh???
Just sayin...

Anyhoo, regardless of breed, as a dog owner, it is YOUR responsibility to realize EXACTLY what you've got on the end of the leash and keep a handle on it.

BTW, my mutt trees postal workers


and 'holes' UPS drivers...



just 'pokin' some fun

[ May 03, 2012, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 03, 2012, 08:09 AM:
 
Sadly, berween this p.o.s. computer, my lack of computer skills & some cable that I seem to be missing that hooks the camera to the computer, photos will be a while coming.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 03, 2012, 10:13 AM:
 
Oh? Just like that campout conspiracy a couple years ago involving koko, (with Jackson's help), snapping surreptitious photos of an elderly gentleman who was politely examining Melching's machine gun. Same excuse, Mr Sneaky One. You can get us a photo, if you want to bad enough.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 03, 2012, 10:21 AM:
 
There is not a better song describing the relationship between a man and his dog than Elvis Presley's "Ol' Shep". Brings a tear to one's eye, every time.

Good hunting. LB

edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-LWqrskw0M

[ May 03, 2012, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on May 03, 2012, 11:38 AM:
 
You sure got that one right, Leonard. That is one of my favorites.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 03, 2012, 12:44 PM:
 
"Well, I might catch some slack for this, but I think there is a troubling correlation between the mindset of those who openly hate "pitbulls" and those who openly speak out against "guns"."
----------------------------------------
Nope! Guns don't kill people, People do. Pit Bulls attack people for no apparent reason. They are not allowed in our city without the owner first purchasing a large liability policy, and even then they are required to post danger signs on their home and property.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 03, 2012, 01:06 PM:
 
I like to think that nobody get's flack for expressing an honest opinion, Fred. And, I know that you are defending a whole lot of fine companions. But, you must know there is an element lurking in that DNA that can be dangerous.

It's too bad that so many animals suffer from a bad reputation, but like I said earlier, the pound is full of pits that will be destroyed because they won't take the risk. We all know this to be true. Sad, but true nonetheless.

Good hunting. LB

edit: news item/today, a US Army soldier died after being bitten by a feral dog in Afghanistan. Rabies. You never know but in this case somebody dropped the ball, cleaning a wound and slapping a bandaid on it.

[ May 03, 2012, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 03, 2012, 01:17 PM:
 

quote:

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Pit Bulls attack people for no apparent reason. They are not allowed in our city without the owner first purchasing a large liability policy, and even then they are required to post danger signs on their home and property.

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I believe Fred mentioned ignorance. That's not meant to be disparaging, it's just the path many folks have been led down.

Here's some stuff you can read to combat ignorance, if your mind is open enough to allow it.

Pitbulls
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 03, 2012, 02:28 PM:
 
I will tell you what, Jimbo. I just read that page and while I like to think I have an open mind on a variety of subjects, if you read carefully, there is so much cautious advice offered that I don't even have to read between the lines.

I will give them a break. I know some are more aggressive than others but every other sentence contains warning on what and what not to do. Yes, Akitas and some others have a reputation for not mixing well with other dogs.

Okay, to each his own. I'm not going to own one, ever. But, we can still be friends.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 03, 2012, 02:39 PM:
 
Likening the pit bull debate to a gun debate has no correlation in my book. You are talking about a tool that humans use versus a creature with its OWN mind. Yes a pit can be used as a tool as well but it still has its own mind and own actions regardless of the user/owner. Just my opinion

I would say that the overall fear of them towards humans can be a bit blown up at times. I would just not leave them alone with kids is all im saying. From my experiences I would never have one if I had other pets. I can attest to them snapping.

Im pretty sure my 16 year old sister and my parents on our small farm did NOT teach that dog any aggressive behavior. We had it from a pup and did nothing but love and take care of that dog and it turned and snapped on another family dog (family member). While I do agree about shitty dog owners, just pointing the finger at the owner with pit bulls is not the answer.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 03, 2012, 03:32 PM:
 
"Here's some stuff you can read to combat ignorance, if your mind is open enough to allow it._
------------------------------------
I believe what I have seen with my own eyes, and SOME of what I see on local news. A lttle boy in Omaha lost his genital's to a neighbor's Pit, and a little girl over there lost half of her face to one of those dogs you think are great.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 03, 2012, 04:03 PM:
 
Geordie said early on, they're not for everyone. I wholeheartedly agree with that. Saying you'll give them a break is satisfaction enough for me.

Irresponsible breeding and owners have done the damage to the bulldog's reputation. Breeder's who turned them into pit fighters from the working/hunting dogs they once were are totally responsible for the paranoia so prevelant today. "Black boys with pit bulls on a rope encourage their dogs to intimidate other dogs" serve to perpetuate it.

I don't take Bella to the dog park to romp unrestrained with other dogs she doesn't know. She never leaves my property unrestrained and most of the time she wears a training collar as well. None of that is because she's vicious or aggressive, but because I feel it's my resposibility to her, the breed in general, and the folks and other animals she might encounter along the way. I don't sit on my porch with my arm around her without a leash like Tim in his picture. She does have her own mind and although I think I'm pretty good at reading body language, I can't read her mind or predict how she's going to react in every instance. I don't think she's going to do anything awful, ever, but once is all it takes. I don't want footage of her being loaded up into the truck on her way to the house of the blue juice on the evening news. IMO, it takes that kind of responsibility and dedication to bring a pitbull into your life.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 03, 2012, 04:15 PM:
 
Here's my kinda dog...



[ May 03, 2012, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 03, 2012, 04:29 PM:
 
Hey, I tried Rich. With your professional background I didn't figure that would take. You've seen first hand the bad ones, the good ones, not so much.

I better back out of here now.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 03, 2012, 05:10 PM:
 
the first thing that pops into my mind when someone gets a Pitt is WHY???. seriously WHY??.
no one can have complete contol of their dog 100% of the time. there are bound to be times when you (me) have a period when we forget that our dog is with us. dogs in general,if want/need to bite anyone will do it quick and move off. Pitts are not bred that way. they are bred to bite and hold on.
as for the comments on G-Sheppards, they were bred for protection but that trait is /has been bred out of them for the most part. i don't mind Sheppards but would still not trust one 100% of the time specially around kids.
Koko. you've heard pros/cons on this subject as you asked. i'll leave it with one last comment. can you finacually afford to handle the resonsibily if something happens??. could you live with you're consious if that dog attacked someone???. i REALLY hope you seriously have a good heart to heart talk with yourself and see if keeping this dog is the right thing to do!
over and out.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 03, 2012, 05:36 PM:
 
Thanks for noticeing the pic. Jim.. I very seldom put a leash on Copper anymore..
She has most of my commands down pat and she knows no means no. (don't touch)
Another thing I do with her is put her around as many people and other animals as possable and watch how she reacts to them and make any enforcements if needed. I also never put her in a position to where she can't fully see whats going on around her.
Example: you have a dog tied out behind a building and it can only see so far around the corner and catches some movement of someone passing by but only gets a quick glimps. Some dogs barks because of this and may also get terr. cause they don't understand what they are seeing and take it as a threat..
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 03, 2012, 06:30 PM:
 
It's not a personal thing, Jimbo. I respect your opinion and I understand the love and affection a man has for a dog, regardless of the breed's reputation. So, you need not sneak off, we are all grown ups.

The thing that strikes me is similar to what bearhunter asks; simply, why? There is so much to choose from, that I have the feeling that there is a bit of the (insert word) exotic, thrill, danger, uniqueness, intimidating, badassness, etceteras, etceteras.

You know, a lot of people think we are known by the dogs we keep. Some owners look like their dogs and visa versa. Exactly why I so much admire coon hounds, I couldn't tell ya? My daughter has a Pug, a friggin' little yapper if there ever was one. There is something to be said for the person that rescues a mutt from the pound. They get praise from me, but on the other hand, I spit on PETA and other's that scream and beg for money and then kill 98% of the dogs entrusted to their custody. A "no kill" facility is a worthy enterprise, in my book.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 03, 2012, 06:44 PM:
 
"Hey, I tried Rich. With your professional background I didn't figure that would take. You've seen first hand the bad ones, the good ones, not so much."
---------------------------
Well you have me pegged sir. I would like to say that even though we disagree on the dog subject doesn't mean we can't be friends.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 03, 2012, 06:59 PM:
 
I know it's not personal. We're just beating a dead horse anyway. Koko already said he's keeping the dog.

Why? Simple, and goes hand in hand with everything I've written here. The first one was laying at the front door of Hooters one hot, summer afternoon with a couple other pups and the mom. Somebody had taken pity on them and put some water out for them. They were obviously strays for whatever reason. He was about 10 weeks old or so and I told my buddy once I got inside if that brindle (he was a handsome little devil) was still there when I left, I was taking him home. He wasn't. They were all gone. Figured animal control or the Humane Society had picked them up. A couple days later he was walking down my street when I was on my way home from work, all alone now. I stopped and called to him and he came and hopped in the car with me. Devine intervention I figured, and he lived with me 'til he checked out.

He dispelled all the negative connotations I had about pitbulls. Bella was rescued as a stray and was offered to me by her fosters. We had a bit of a rough stretch at first, she didn't want to stay home and escaped twice, but she's come around very nicely and appears to prefer to stay where she can see me at all times now. I take her hunting with me now and then, and when she gets sidetracked and loses me, she panics and usually makes a beeline for the truck if she can't find me pretty quick. Cracks me up everytime. I can see her due to the height advantage, she can hear me, and it's funny to watch her feverishly search.

ETA:

quote:

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Well you have me pegged sir. I would like to say that even though we disagree on the dog subject doesn't mean we can't be friends.

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Can I bring my dog to visit?

[ May 03, 2012, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: jimanaz ]
 

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Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on May 03, 2012, 08:08 PM:
 
We live behind a gate and have a fairly large yard. Any animal, be it the neighbors cat or dog has to be hauled off after I find it spread across my yard. She stays in the house most of the time when my wife is home alone. Any human that approaches the place will get a warning bark that rattles the windows. One word form either of us "BACK" will make her walk to us and she sits and never takes her eyes off of them till she sees up interact with them and invite them in.

She is intelligent and behaves well.

This is our third dog of this breed. All of them were of the same nature.

She is never allowed in the same vicinity of a child. It just is not gonna happen. I have seen what she can do with animals.

I trust her as much as I do any dog I have ever been around, but what if that child, while we are in the house decides to do something that may trip that internal trigger, a trigger I have only seen when she hits another animal.

Sometimes you have to be smarter than the dog.



 

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Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on May 03, 2012, 08:20 PM:
 
This was the one prior to the one you see above. At his peak he weighed in at 110 lbs.


 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 03, 2012, 08:59 PM:
 
I don't know what that is, Randy? A Grizz? Not familiar with that breed, at all? Good looking dog though.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 04, 2012, 04:13 AM:
 





 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 04, 2012, 05:00 AM:
 
I have a male cur that is a little more people aggressive than I'd like. But my dogs are always kenneled or in a dog box unless we are hunting and then he could care less. Anyway at the gas station the other day and he was in the dog box. I was sitting apparently unseen in the cab. He barked at a guy that passed fairly close to the back of the truck, so the dipshit just kept walking closer and closer until he was finally leaning over my tailgate, aggravating the dog to the point he was trying to tear the door off the dog box. I finally stepped out and told the guy that I could sure let that dog out for him if he wanted to see him a little closer. He hadn't seen me in the truck and it scared the crap out of him!
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 04, 2012, 06:35 AM:
 
Jim is right, my remarks weren't meatn as disparaging.

quote:

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Nope! Guns don't kill people, People do. Pit Bulls attack people for no apparent reason.

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quote:

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but it's that kind of mentality that causes trouble for certain breeds.

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quote:

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LAS VEGAS -- A birthday party in the Las Vegas area ended in tragedy Saturday when a one-year-old boy died hours after he was attacked by his family's pet dog.

The boy, who was not named, was celebrating his birthday late Friday at his grandmother's home in suburban Henderson, 17 miles (27km) southeast of Las Vegas, when he crawled over to the dog and starting petting him.

The 120-pound (54kg) Mastiff/Rhodesian mix latched its teeth around the boy's head and began shaking him, the Las Vegas Sun reported, citing police.

Family members rushed to the boy and attempted to free him from the six-year-old dog.

The one-year-old was transported to a local hospital before being flown by helicopter to University Medical Center's trauma unit in downtown Las Vegas.

Police said the boy, who turned one Thursday, died at 1:45am Saturday local time.

The family said they had owned the dog since it was a puppy and it had never before displayed any signs of aggression. They voluntarily handed over the animal to Henderson Animal Control officers who are expected to put it down in the coming days

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quote:

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are expected to put it down in the coming days

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.....unless some bleeding heart convinces authorities that it wasn't the dog's fault, the child was pulling it's tail.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 05, 2012, 01:24 PM:
 
"....unless some bleeding heart convinces authorities that it wasn't the dog's fault, the child was pulling it's tail."
-----------------------------------------
Yeh, no shit Leonard!
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 05, 2012, 06:46 PM:
 
there has been mention of Dobermans on this thread. as far as i can recall, i've only known 4 in my life that were somewhat familiar to me. came home from college in 85 in the spring to find out my Dad had taken in 2 Dobies. 1 male one female. can't rememer where he got them or anything else
he came home one night and seen the male had shit on the floor. he went to scold (spank) it, and it attacked him bighting him very bad.he lost mobility in his arm for a few years. the female was pregnant at the time. she had her pups and my grandmother came over to see the pups. the female unprovoked .came up behind grandma and bit her in the ass. it was a pleasure to put a 20guage slug in her head. can't remember what happened to the male other than he "was gone" soon after the bite.
a few years ago, a guy wanted me to remodel his basement. he had just adopted a female dobie high strung bitch .i told him straight out that i would not work on his house if that dog was able to contact me. (he alsso had 2 small kids). he asured me the dog was just fine even though he'd only had it a few weeks.that thing NEVER qiute pacing and barked constantly.i expressed my concerns to him about having that dog around his young kids put he paid no mind. he no longer has the dog and have not asked him why was a young dog so i figger it did not die from old age.
the other was a body shop ownwer that had a BIG male that was a nervous/syco type.he swore up/down that it was a good dog
last i heard, the dog had a "moment" and had to be disposed of
so in other words, those are the only 4 Dobies ive ever had contact with and.............

i'm a deer hunting NUT and would NEVER trust being around a mature buck in rut..NEVER

[ May 05, 2012, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 05, 2012, 08:57 PM:
 
I think it's safe to say this is a polarizing issue. Aggressive breeds are either misunderstood or there is little sympathy, not much in the way of a middle ground.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 05, 2012, 09:10 PM:
 
Here is a little tidd bit that may surprise some of you. Got this info from doing a search on dog bites..

quote:

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It may surprise you, but Cocker Spaniels are right near the top of the list... and have been for seven or eight years now. Most of the bites reported tend to be from large dogs, and that's simply because they do the most damage. However, I wouldn't be at all shocked to learn that the real "bite leaders" are small dogs like Toy Poodles, Pomeranians, and Chihuahuas. People get bit by these little guys every day - but no one reports the bites because they aren't serious. There's a big difference between the imprint in your leg left by a Rottie vs. a Shih Tzu.

Dalmatians can often get aggressive and snap, as well as Chow Chows

German Shepherd dogs are at the top of the list, then wolf-hybrids. However, those are only of the reported cases. Bites from small dogs are rarely reported & happen very often.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_breed_of_dog_has_the_most_documented_cases_of_biting_people_nationwide#ixzz1u3i4zw9p

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 06, 2012, 05:11 AM:
 
The one thing most 'protection' breeds possess is an innate will to DOMINATE. That is where they get their drive to do the work they do.

If you guys have ever seen the movie, "Jurassic Park", you might recall the scene where the clever Velociraptors were "testing the electric fence" around the compound?? They were doing so to see if/where any weak spots were in the fence so they could take advantage & escape, and by doing so, displaying the ability to learn intelligently. Just a movie, but you'll see the point in a sec...

Well, I see that very same behavior in dogs, and specifically in 'protection' breeds. Some dogs have such a drive to dominate that they will continually "test YOUR fence" to see what they can get away with.

Let a dog like that get away with anything at all, and you've enpowered it (BAD thing) By shutting off the electric fence, so to speak, you've given that dog the green light overtake you in the pack structure.
So, once that dog figgers it's safe, easy & advantageous to climb over YOUR 'fence' & dominate YOU, they will do just that! They are hardwired to dominate, you don't just shut that off with one time training!!!

IMHO, those types of dogs require CONSTANT discipline training & reinforcement. When they don't get continual reminders that they are NOT the boss, it leaves the door open for it to "SNAP" (as we hear so often) at it's own discretion, thereby seizing the dominate position. When that "unprovoked SNAP" occurs with a display of aggression & power, the ground work had already been laid for it to happen.

To remain objective, this is really not a breed specific phenomenon. Any dog can have that innate desire to dominate. But due to humans breeding for those traits, the will to dominate IS higher in certain breeds. Much the same as the propensity is higher to get a point from a pointer, a retrieve from a retriever, a tree bark from a coonhound, and a dog fight from a pitbull. That's what they were bred for, so that's what they do!!!

Personally, I have absolutely NO desire or use for a dog like that. They simply require too much work the keep the 'electric fence' maintained!!! Been there, done that. NO thanks. Not my idea of a companion/family dog. But that's just me...

Back on the subject of pitbulls (which I don't consider a 'protection' breed). The subtle, yet very distinct differentiation between a 'true pitbull' showing dog aggression and an aggressive display of dominance by a protection breed is that 'true pitbulls' actually ENJOY the fighting part. Other dogs fight as a means to an end, TO ESTABLISH DOMINANCE. Whereas, a pitbull will fight and continue to do so even when in a dominant position. It will also continue to fight when it is losing.
Why? Because it was bred to enjoy the battle, that's why.
Not many other breeds possess the resolve of a true gladiator, which I believe is why some see that as quite unique in the dog world.

Heck, our culture is steeped in revelling in a fight and NEVER quitting! It is everywhere around us and we are taught from a very early age to try our best and never give up! Therein lies the allure of the true gamebred pitbull, since itpossesses that very same will to finish and never give up, despite insurmountable odds. But I digress...

There are plenty of coonhounds that love to catch/finish a coon and their tails are just whippin' in joy when they do. A pitbull has that same drive, just that it's wanting another dog in his mouth, not a coon
But keep in mind, that is PREY DRIVE, and not to be confused with the dominance drive a 'protection' breed has!

I STRONGLY feel that dominance drive is what we, as humans need to be vigilant about staying on top of in ANY dog!!! And if you've got a dog with both a high prey drive AND a high dominance drive, you've got a real handful to keep on top of. Good luck with that...

To each, his own. But I'd sooner have a dog with massive prey drive and little/no dominance drive over a dog bred or encouraged to have high dominance drive. Make sense?

[ May 06, 2012, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 06, 2012, 05:26 AM:
 
And Cal is right about them heelers!!! Man, them suckers seem to think everything that moves is a bovine & needs to get bit, LOL!!!
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on May 06, 2012, 06:08 AM:
 
http://www.stripes.com/news/marines-tighten-leash-on-pit-bull-policy-1.95352
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 06, 2012, 06:17 AM:
 
Yep, makes sense.

Owning this kind of dog can be a major PIA at times. The pecking order in our house in my dog's mind is:

Me.

Him.

Mrs. 49.

The kids.

Though, the kids are getting older and are starting to establish themselves.

Remember the command voice? It works with dominant dogs as well. High pitched female voices don't always cut it.

Anyway speaking of Dobermans, when my buddy was dating his first wife, he was over her family's house all the time and maintained a relationship with the family dog, a Doberman. Well, the ex wife's father had suspected some hanky panky between my buddy and his daughter, and went after him one night. The Doberman? He attacked the father during the fray and protected my buddy. I guess dogs have their favorites just like humans.
 

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Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on May 06, 2012, 06:53 AM:
 
I just can't wrap my mind around having a dog in my house that thinks it's above my wife and kids in the "pecking order"
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 06, 2012, 07:31 AM:
 
Prezactly! That's a recipe for potential disaster to erupt. Every dog should he the lowest on the family totem pole!!!

Heck, when my pup was young, I'd make my niece walk him at 'heel' and help to teach him "sit" & "down" commands. That helps to instill the hierarchy right from the get go. Since he respects her authority and doesn't continually test its boundaries, Pokey honors her commands just as he would mine. They are great pals...


Every dog is different and special in their own right, but they are still a friggin' dog and should be treated as such!
Sure, treating a dog like a human might seem cute & even funny at times, but it really just muddies the waters of authority and leaves the door open for a dog to question a human's role as pack leader. And when a dog is not taught early on that even a small child is to be honored, the arena for disaster is laid out...
 

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Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on May 06, 2012, 08:20 AM:
 
Funny this topic is being discussed now because, two days ago, two houses to the west of me live two big white german shepherds. Rarely get out of the kennel etc.

Thje transit bus is flying down our street to bring one of the kids that live out here home from school and for some reason these two dogs are runnin loose. They fly out on the road the bus is slidin sideways to avoid them. I am standin watchin it all on the driveway. just a half a block away.

The lady who owns the dogs has just got home and is unloading her vehicle in the driveway etc. We are good friends with them, they come over here I go over there, been around these dogs numerous times etc.

I hop on my fourwheeler and drive over there to see if the dogs are all right and bitch about the bus going to dam fast down the street with all the kids we have around here. I pull in and the dogs are in the kennel now barking, the wife is in the house and only one of the kids is out walking to the back of the house. I walk with Damon, the kid, and somehow the dogs get out of the kennel.

The two are barking and circling coming within a couple fet lips curled while I try and get to my four wheeler. I am slowly movin away while keeping them in front as best I can while they become more and more agressive. Another neighbor then pulls up on his 4 wheeler on the street and is watching the whole thing and I get to his 4 wheeler. We can not believe the way these two dogs are acting.

Once on the fourwheeler I can now pet the two dogs. So I then go to get on my 4 wheeler and it's on again. I just waited for her to get them in the kennel before I went to it.

The sad part about it was that she really didn't seem concerned about it. She even said she wouldn't mind seeing them gone. I told her you can't have dogs acting like that in this neighborhood of kids and people walking by and in each others yards all the time.

Like I said they have been to my house numerous times etc. If I has seen my dogs act like that to anyone young or old etc they would be gone. Dog to human agression should never be tolerated.

I feel like I am living to a bomb waiting to go off. I would have rather they bit me the than have it happen to one of the kids around here. Fred and Kelly you know the "hood" lots of people activity around here.

Both myself and the other neighbor who was there told them our concerns so I guess the balls in their court now??

I would like to give another vote for the removal of all Heelers from the planet. I always carry a rebar stake on certain ranches when going to the door.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 06, 2012, 09:40 AM:
 

quote:

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I just can't wrap my mind around having a dog in my house that thinks it's above my wife and kids in the "pecking order"

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quote:

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The pecking order in our house in my dog's mind is:

Me.

Him.

Mrs. 49.

The kids.

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Stop digging, 49. You can't be serious?

Any dog that won't accept discipline from members of the family is a problem, in my world. What's the deal, this dog only responds to commands given in German?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 06, 2012, 04:38 PM:
 
You guys quit pickin on 49, after all it takes a lot of dedication to teach a Chihuahua to speak German.
 

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Posted by JP (Member # 4095) on May 06, 2012, 06:24 PM:
 
Three year old granddaughter. When she is here they are inseparable and he takes commands from her as well as he does from anybody in the family. The only time this dog would be a threat is if you tried to harm anyone in the family.




 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 06, 2012, 07:03 PM:
 
JP, nice looking Dobie.

Leonard, these guys that want to make off color comments for no reason don't know me, my dog, or my family. Yep, my Dobie is on the dominant side and has a pecking order in his mind. It takes work to keep him in line, especially for the females in the family, but we do it.

It's funny you mentioned German commands. On Tuesday we had him down at my brother's place. When I told him to drop his ball (command voice) my mother said to my wife, "That sounded like the Gestapo." Lol.

The last time we left him with a dog handler doggy wasn't having any of their nonsense. The handler put a bark collar on him, and doggy ended up burning two holes in his neck because he barked through the pain. He will be staying with my brother when we go away this weekend. My brother has experience with Dobermans and his voice is similar to mine. He will be able to control him.

I gotta go and feed Cujo now.

Later.

[ May 06, 2012, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 06, 2012, 07:19 PM:
 
"Well since you guys are all experts why don't you tell me?"

Hey I just asked a question, it's your pecking order.

Reminds me of a joke though... but I'd probably piss you plum off and that ain't my intent.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 06, 2012, 08:44 PM:
 
Like I said, four-legged phallic symbols. Cops, military and crackheads all gotta have one. I'll take my little two-unit rat terrier alarm system and back it up with the 9, the AR or the Mossy. Ain't nothing goes down my street or by my house without me knowing about it, exceptin' I don't have to worry about my first line of defense eating the paperboy. Like Q once told me about terriers - specifically JRT's, but it applies to them all, big and small,.... rude li'l bastards. Sometimes, when the "li'l bastard" weighs more than 90 pounds, that can be a real liability.
 

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Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on May 06, 2012, 10:03 PM:
 
49 quote "Well maybe I should just take the dog out and put a bullet in his head.

Thanks for your contribution."

In many cases that might be the best preventative medicine for a dog that might go off.

Sorry 49, I grew up in a time and place where dogs didn't ride in the cab, sleep on the couch, or were treated like people. Aggressive dogs were usually dealt with quickly by responsible owners.

Oh btw, when I was in first grade, I had a classmate mauled to death by a dog (Alaskan Malamute) that got loose from its pen. The dipshit owner of the dog had several other Malamutes and refused to get rid of them despite everyone in a very this small town telling him they needed to go. The decision was made for him when somebody shot the whole damn bunch.

So excuse my bias, but I can't for the life of me understand why someone wants to have a known aggressive breed of dog when there are better choices available.

[ May 06, 2012, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 06, 2012, 10:08 PM:
 
Peaches watching her fav show



to snooze thru....Law and Order.

Carry on with the bull dog beatdown...
kj
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 06, 2012, 11:36 PM:
 
There are alot of breeds I don't like or care for but each person is entitled to there own choice of dog after all they are the one that is going to raise it and be responsable for it as well.. Right!!

Hell Leonard has a cat for gods sake and I hate the little bastards but it don't make leonard a bad person for haveing one, just as long as he keeps it in Cali.
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 07, 2012, 04:35 AM:
 
Well, I for one, can sort of see where 49 is coming from. I'm just talking hunting dogs here, but my wife and kids have little to zero authority with my dogs. My dogs love everybody in the family and are friendly as hell. But when it comes to taking orders from anyone but me, they pay little attention without electricity involved. My wife has learned that she doesn't dare let one out without a shock collar on, Or they tend to go hunting or do as they please while she screams at them at the top of her lungs. If I'm around I can have them out all the time and they will stay right around and mind their manners.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 07, 2012, 05:58 AM:
 
Tim, that's like putting a rifle range facing someones house. Build your berm but sooner or later a bullet's gonna come whizzing by.

Being responsible is acting before a problem occurs.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 07, 2012, 06:11 AM:
 
Yep, it seems like a dog holding a position of power in the household is prolly more the norm than the exception nowadays. Heck, watch the "Dog Whisperer" on NatGeo and you can see how goofed up some people treat & handle their pets, and how that manifests in negative behavior...

The stronger & more headstrong the dog, the more serious the behavior and potential danger becomes.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 07, 2012, 06:17 AM:
 
KJ's Peaches dog has about the sweetest disposition I've ever seen in a dog. Very docile and submissive, and that picture shows it perfectly. But I'd bet a 12pack of Miller Lite that she ain't that sweeet toward a coyote!

Good illustration of how a working dog can leave it's 'game face' on the field...

[ May 07, 2012, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 07, 2012, 09:55 AM:
 
Update on Kay-Nine's training;
So far, this is the most affectionate animal that I've ever owned. Biggest problem I've had is trying to get her to stop licking. This dog gets bossed around by a half starved cat that showed up. Funny to watch, but I'm keeping a close eye out for any signs of aggression.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 07, 2012, 12:14 PM:
 
And the beat goes on...

First, they lick ya. lol

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 07, 2012, 01:55 PM:
 
It's like the shark bump. Their way of testing you, looking for the weakness, or sweet spot. Nice knowing ya.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 07, 2012, 04:47 PM:
 
I think that I'll take her down tomorrow and have one of those "If found, return to......" chips put in, in case anything happens to me.
So, how many `M's` are in HOMMAN????
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on May 07, 2012, 06:18 PM:
 
Knockemdown, make no mistake that at any sign of aggression towards my family one of my dogs would catch a bullet faster than they could blink. But they aren't pets. They are working dogs and that's what they do. If they aren't with me, they are kenneled. Once in a while the kids or wife will let one out for a romp or one reason or another, but the dogs simply don't always mind the rest of the family well and I simply don't have time and the family doesn't have enough interest to give them the Ceaser treatment.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 07, 2012, 06:21 PM:
 
I had to think about that one. Doesn't matter, everybody in town knows Lance. That's funny.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 07, 2012, 07:32 PM:
 
LOL, the only identifier she'd have that indicated I'd been nearby would be the silver end of a mailman's mace can sticking outta her ass.

The only dog that ever actually got hold of me was a black lab/ shepard cross. Two Christmases ago, slipped out the door past its owner, came through two yards and jumped me grabbing me by the left forearm. He held on for a good ten seconds while I tried to get my mace off my satchel, at which point I painted my arm and filled his nose to past full with pepper spray. Only then did he let go and then made four more charges, getting a face full of mace each time, before his owner called him off sucessfully.

Afterwards, I regretted that I hadn't just grasped the aluminum mace can in my right hand and began pounding on top of his muzzle with it. Based upon my experience with foxes and several coyotes, hit them hard enough and they go completely unconscious. All it takes is one good WHOP. Drop him, then do about four or five good stomps on his chest to cause traumatic asphyxiation and blow out his heart valves and he's dead before he comes to.

Not that I haven't thought this through.....
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 07, 2012, 07:59 PM:
 
Cal thats exactly how my bird dogs where. I trained them for pheasant hunting and not as a family pet. My son was a little young at the time and did'nt like them much other than to watch them work a field so I did'nt worry about it.
My wife usually fed them when I was away working or hunting coyotes and in most cases did'nt give her much of a problem.
One day though I just came in from hunting coyotes and the wife was out feeding the dogs and as I was going into the house I heard the wife holler out, so I stopped and looked around the corner of the house and saw the wife on the ground with one of my dogs on top of her..
I ran over and got the dog off from her and she was pissed. I asked what happen and did the dog bite her or anything like that.. She said no, she slipped on some ice and for some reason the dog jumped on top of her. No growling or biteing or any other aggression.. I laughed and told her maybe the dog was trying to help her up..LOL

IMO if a dog owner is going to have other people around then time should be spent getting the dog used to being around people and if a dog happens to show any negatives then perhaps the dog should just be kept away from others. They can still be a good productive dog..
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 07, 2012, 09:25 PM:
 
Lance I remember reading a book about Frank Glasier, and he wrote or said that he always carried a short club and would hit his dogs and wolves over the snout when needed. It knocked em right out.

I've thought of that a few times when out running.

Hard to beat a pistol though...
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 08, 2012, 06:14 AM:
 
Makes perfect sense, Cal.
I was making more of a general statement there about dogs in the home. You've got real working dogs there, no doubt.

Koko, one more pic, from about 15yrs ago. Getting a full on face washing from a pitbull

That dog also had a Grade A+ attitude toward humans. Other dogs, not so much. Finding that old pic reminds me of how much I like red dogs...

Looking forward to seeing this girl of yours!
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 08, 2012, 07:37 AM:
 
Knockemdown;
If my evil daughter & son-in law ever drag themselves away from Vegas & come to visit, I'll have him work on this 'puter so that I can post photos again.
She's pretty much all white w/matching brown eye patches.

CDude;
Glad to see that my strange sense of humor wasn't taken the wrong way.

The technique that you mentioned is what the trappers call the `nose knock & chest stomp`. While it's not pretty to watch, it's a very humane & bloodless way of putting trapped coyotes down. Quiet too, if that's a factor.
However, I'm not so sure that it would work as well if the animal had a hold of one of your body parts. I'm thinking that with a coyote in a trap, there's some whiplash effect when they're rapped on the end of the snout as opposed to something that was `anchored` to an arm or a leg. I'm sure that there is somebody here with more experience in this than me, but I just wouldn't be 100% confident in rapping a dog that had latched onto me.

Tasers, on the other hand............
I watched the friendly local Sheriff's Deputy Taser an aggressive dog one time & was damn impressed. My 12 Ga. could not have put that dog down any faster. That dog did a 180 degree attitude change instantly. Even after it was placed in the dog box, all it did was cower in the corner.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 08, 2012, 12:19 PM:
 
The 'nose knock and chest stomp' is a very effective method of dispatching fox, but I personally could never make it work on coyotes.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 09, 2012, 07:29 PM:
 
Here ya go, haters:

Pitbull Saves Woman

Suck it!!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 09, 2012, 07:44 PM:
 
Yeah, Lilly's a hero! I will give her all the credit she deserves.

Good hunting. LB

A lab probably wouldn't have done it, right?
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 09, 2012, 07:48 PM:
 
Didn't get a chance to watch the link, but if it's the dog dragging its owner off the RR tracks, that dog probably took her down and was just trying to drag supper off to a quieter, less hectic outta way place. Just sayin'...
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 09, 2012, 08:09 PM:
 
CrossJ;
What part of the nose knock & chest stomp isn't working for you with coyotes????
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 09, 2012, 08:19 PM:
 
This just in:

Little girl is mauled to death by family's pit bull... and grandmother is shot by neighbour who tried to kill it
By RICHARD HARTLEY-PARKINSON
PUBLISHED: 05:35 EST, 9 May 2012 | UPDATED: 05:47 EST, 9 May 2012

A toddler has died after being mauled by her grandparents' dog and her grandmother was shot when she tried to rescue her.
The 16-month-old was savaged in the back yard at a house in La Cruces and a neighbour fired a shot to try and kill the Pit Bull but instead hit the grandmother in the leg.
The girl was bitten on the head and chest when she was playing alone as the attack happened. Both her and her grandmother, 52, were taken to El Paso hospital but the girl was pronounced dead yesterday.

The girl and her grandmother were found underneath a trampoline in the back garden trying to escape from the dog

The girl was playing alone in the back yard of her grandparents' home in Las Cruces, New Mexico when the dog attacked
Police said that the dog was later killed by the 69-year-old neighbour who shot it near the side of the house on Stone Canyon Drive.
He used a .45-caliber handgun from his house where he dialled 911 shortly before 11.30am. Other neighbours reported hearing several gunshots , one of which struck the grandmother.

According to kvia.com, another neighbour called Chris Wollard went over to help after hearing the drama unfold.
He said: 'I found the lady under the trampoline, they have a trampoline that's buried in the yard. It's hard to remember, there was so much commotion under the trampoline.
'I was concerned that the baby wasn't breathing.
'I'm a respiratory therapist so that was my concern, to make sure she had a good airway and was stable and was ready for the paramedics to come and take care of her.'

Several toys lie around the garden where the girl was bitten to the head and chest

When they heard the screams from the garden, neighbours rushed to help but nothing could be done to save the toddler's life
Another neighbour added: 'The little girl I know was the apple of her grandfather's eye.'
Speaking to Almagordo Daily News, Dr Beth Vesco-Mock, director of Animal Services Center of the Mesilla Valley said: 'Young children need to be supervised when they're around pets.
'It does not mean the dog is vicious, or a bad dog; there is no such thing as a bad dog, but you have to be responsible with your children.'
Earlier this month a 74-year-old man was killed when his pit bull attacked him in Santa Fe, New Mexico.
Dr Vesco-Mock added: 'It's not a dog issue. It's not a pit bull issue. It's a responsibility issue. When you get these dogs, you must train them and supervise them, especially when they're around children, at all times.'
Police continue to investigate the circumstances surrounding yesterday's dog attack but no criminal charges have been brought.

The dog was destroyed by the neighbour who accidentally shot the grandmother in the leg when he was taking aim at the pit bull

Dr Beth Vesco-Mock, director of Animal Services Center of the Mesilla Valley said: 'Young children need to be supervised when they're around pets'
 

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Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on May 09, 2012, 08:19 PM:
 
Two deaths in a week from pit bulls in NM...

http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_20575542/dog-mauls-las-cruces-girl-grandmother-shot-during-rescue
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 09, 2012, 08:21 PM:
 
http://www.ktul.com/story/18214442/buster-helps-save-family-from-suspect

If this link works, heres another 'pit' in Tulsa who saved the family from an intruder this week.

Koko,....all of it. I have used it alot on fox....very effective. Coyotes don't 'stun' for me with the nose wrap. The 'chest crush/heart stomp' in no way kills them near as fast as it does a fox. .22 behind the ear or between the eyes is much quicker.
Maintain
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 09, 2012, 08:35 PM:
 
Well thanks for raining on my parade. You 2 are just SO resourceful.

I'm with you, Geordie. I used to use an axe handle for the "rap" part and that worked pretty good. The stomp, not so much. Resorted to leaning on the axe handle and standing on 'em for a while, and still had to interupt my reset now and then when I noticed signs of life. Coyotes are tuff.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 09, 2012, 09:26 PM:
 
I always like to put a 22 bullet IN the ear rather than behind the ear. As far as a stomp, I prefer crushing the skull, if you can work it out. Also, standing on the neck works for me.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: Hey, Jimbow, EX cuuuussssseee ME! I thought this was the bulldog beatdown?

[ May 09, 2012, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 10, 2012, 06:16 AM:
 
Lonny, that link you posted was to the same story Leonard copy/pasted. And the 2nd death mentioned was already linked in this thread.

Just sayin...

Sooooo, is grandma with the hole in her leg being charged with child endangerment for leaving the poor kid unattended???

Not taking blame away from what the dog did, but gimme a friggin' BREAK! When are the HUMANS gonna take some responsibility here???

If a child were to be blown off a cliff by a strong breeze, would we blame the wind? Or would we blame the guardian who shouldn't have let the kid play near that area in the first place???

Isn't an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure anymore?

Read that story again.

A 16 mo. OLD BABY ALONE OUTSIDE with a LOOSE DOG.
16mos. old is barely walking age for a baby, yet she was left alone in a backyard???
WTF over?

I'm glad granny took a stray bullet, since there prolly won't be any formal charges made for being a completely irresponsible guardian of an infant.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 10, 2012, 07:41 AM:
 
Yeah more blame to the grandparents. Less on the dog that likes to kill human babies...just sayin.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 10, 2012, 07:44 AM:
 
very poor judgement on the grandparents all around. First with the child second with the pit bull.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 10, 2012, 08:41 AM:
 
How do you know the dog liked it?
Isn't is possible that the dog kilt the infant just doing 'doggy' stuff?

Do you propose that another 'breed' of dog, if left unattended with an infant, would be incapable of doing the same?

Or are 'pitbulls' the only dogs that have the urge to determine how a human baby would suffice for a chew toy?

Do you not think that even a 20 lb. lap dog has the capacity to quickly kill a 16 mo. old baby?

If a child found a .22LR pistola and shot herself with it, would it make a difference if she found a .45ACP and did the same thing???

That was pure & unadulterated dumbassery on the part of Grammy. The type of dog just makes it east to shift the blame and sell news. Can't fight the fact that people love hearing about 'pitbulls' or whatever mixed mutt is deemed as such...

So unless anyone can name me a breed of dog that they'd implicitly trust outside alone with a 16 mo. old infant, then the fact that this dog happened to be a 'pitbull' is irrelevant.

My warped logic, for sure...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 10, 2012, 09:55 AM:
 
Yeah, prolly pulled his tail, what do you expect?
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 10, 2012, 10:29 AM:
 
Leonard, if that were my dog, I'd have shot it myself.
That ain't the point.
Point is that this was likely an avoidable disaster if the kid were supervised and/or dog properly restrained in the company of a toddler. Not taking any blame off the dog, but as long as there are dumbass people in the world, dumbass shit is gonna happen...

16 mo. old babies suck titties & shit their diapers, neither of which require canine interaction of any sort. Unattended interaction, no forkin' way!!!
My niece was about that age in the photo from a family BBQ I put up in this thread.
But NO WAY on God's green Earth would I even remotely consider leaving her alone with ANY dog at that age. My white pit was 11yrs old in that pic, so I had a pretty good track record of his personality by then & still wouldn't do it...
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 10, 2012, 12:18 PM:
 
Is it possible that a family that would raise a toddler irresponsibly might also treat / train a dog irresponsibly, with predictable results????
Just say'n that the same folks that would leave a 16 month old toddler unsupervised might also own one of those `four legged phallic symbols`.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 10, 2012, 01:21 PM:
 
Koko, looks like exposure to pitbull slobber is already having an effect on you. Careful man, it is tenderizer, you know?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 10, 2012, 01:22 PM:
 
Fred, I do get your point and appreciate it. If the story is accurately reported, the "reasonable man" would wonder how that child got outside and in the confined space. That would be contributory neglect on the part of whoever was assigned to watch the child. Are we sure grandma was the person assigned, or was she just responding to screams?

Believe it or not, psychologists have labeled a very wide range of behavior as (quote) NORMAL. So, just because most people here reading this thread are responsible, this does not mean that the state would criminalize neglect by a relative, or at least assign blame because they were not diligent in supervision of an infant or child.

You or I might slap the shit out of grandma if she was more absorbed in her soaps than watching baby, but she probably is not culpable for not doing something.

Anyway, this case is peculiar, if you ask me? So is the reporting.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 10, 2012, 02:08 PM:
 
The story says the yard was littered with toys. Kid toys, dog toys, same same? Instant recipe for disaster. Any dog, but PARTICULARLY a strong, high energy dog, a toddler, and toys that both think belong to them left unsupervised for even a few seconds is begging for tragedy. What likely began as a play for one, maybe both, took a turn for the worse. Gramma's panic prolly just fueled the fire for the dog. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the worst injuries occurred AFTER Gramma got involved.

The person/s in charge of the child AND the dog are equally negligent and culpable. If Gramma was either or both, and I assume she was since it was a neighbor who finally intervened, nothing will likely come of it. She's got scars to bear that no penalty or punishment can match.

I appreciated the input of the Dr. in the article. Kind of tempered what easily could have become yet another vilification of the breed and it's offshoots. The funny spelling in the article was curious though.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 10, 2012, 02:48 PM:
 
jimanaz;
LOL...........I hadn't considered that the licking might actually be `tasting`.

El Bee;
Correct me if I'm wrong, but 6 pages & we're still pretty much on topic?? That must be some kind of record around here.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 10, 2012, 03:03 PM:
 
"Point is that this was likely an avoidable disaster ..."

Yep. it was. Around here, we made it very avoidable by making sure that anyone who crosses the city limits with a pit bull or a dog with even one little peptide of pitbull DNA goes to lockup. Has pretty much avoided any further problems quite effectively.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 10, 2012, 03:19 PM:
 
At KoKo's request...short derail.
Anybody got a new AR this spring?


 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 10, 2012, 04:23 PM:
 
Dammit, Lance! Exactly where does all this hostility come from? In all your writing I don't ever recall you having an issue with a pitbull specifically. What fuels your hatred?

I realize you can say that the dog that bit your arm was a bulldog, or the one that mauled the little girl, or the one that came through the window. I kinda think if you had any personal experience with a pit, you would have already detailed it. Do they use pit bulls in the training films at USPS?

ETA:
Since I know he'll be dropping by shortly...Hi Randy! Man, I wish Ronnie would have been a little quicker on the draw that night in El Paso, lol.

[ May 10, 2012, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: jimanaz ]
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 10, 2012, 06:21 PM:
 
The fall of the USPS is all the fault of the pitbull and their owners!

Just because a municipality passes an ordinance, does not mean that it makes sence or is not based on some kneejerk reaction.

Just for comparison, the town I live near doesn't have an ordinace against pitbulls, and guess what, we haven't had a problem either.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 10, 2012, 07:20 PM:
 
"Absence of evidence does not mean evidence of absence." Geordie. Don't know how that applies exactly, but it sounds like it oughtta. Don't confuse those who agree with me with facts.

The downfall of the USPS is due to Congress and incompetent management. I'm willing to give credit where credit is due and state here and now that a bunch of randomly chosen dogs could have done better, much like the old "a million chimps banging on typewriters yada yada yada" thing.

It's my experience that dog breeds exist for specific purposes, whether that's hunting, or whatever. Behavior, based upon my experience and my personal beliefs, is the result of how our brains are built and that we, and dogs, are hardwired for everything we do. Pits were not bred for cuddling, and if they were, somebody F'd up badly. My work requires that I enter into the defended territories of different dogs, all day, every day, and those that have a propensity toward aggression show such behavior more toward myself and my co-workers more so than they do to others. We show up every day, invade their domain, they try to get at us and we leave. In their minds, they've successfully confronted us and run us off. If, by chance, the barrier that prevents them from getting to us fails, the outcome is always ugly. At first, for me. Ultimately, for them.

To compare a pit to an errant gust ow wind or to a firearm is crazy. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Neither guns or the wind have a mind of their own. Pits do. Rotties do. Dobies do. Hell, ratties do, too, but mine know their place in this house and it isn't anywhere but rock bottom when it comes to pecking order. When either of them can start walking upright and writing checks, they'll get promoted.

Kelly,

No new guns, but I have added a new tactical latch handle to mine because gloves and that itty-bitty OEM handle under a scope just don't work. Also, adding some rails to my hand guard for accessorizing, i.e., light. I also convinced my partner, Kevin, that if he was going to get one, he needed to get 'er done because Obama's gonna go on a gun selling spree and the prices are already starting to creep upward. He ordered a RR Predator Pursuit with the 20-inch BBL in stainless.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 10, 2012, 07:50 PM:
 
Kevin made a good choice. I have setup at least 6 uppers for guys like that and they all shot real well.
kj
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on May 11, 2012, 04:43 AM:
 
RR Predator Pursuit(Wilson barrel)I have is amazingly accurate with nearly anything loaded or off the shelf.Near custom bolt accuracy.Cheap stuff(PMC,Fiocchi,Am Eagle,whatever)shoots great to 250 til the barrel warms.
Shoot remanf.Black Hills 55 SPs and few spinners to about 250.He made a GREAT choice IMO.
Lot of testosterone,dog and human,in this thread.

[ May 11, 2012, 04:46 AM: Message edited by: DiYi ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 11, 2012, 06:09 AM:
 
Leonard, thanks.
Obviously, I'm passionate about that breed. But I won't ever try to 'sugar coat' a bulldog. They are what they are.

I just strongly feel that humans too easily pass the buck of accountability onto the animal, rather than accept it for themselves. And others are all to willing to ignorantly embrace the dog itself as the problem, when that is simply not the case.

This is precisely why I bring up correlations to guns & gusts of wind. It is not to compare one to the next, that makes no sense! I did so, rather to show how AVOIDABLE those situations would be IF a logical human were present to intervene or outright prevent it in the first place...

Hey Lance, I've got some questions about your dog.
How does it react toward small game? Is it aggressive, at all?
Will it catch & kill a rodent? Bunny? Squirrel? Cat?

Obviously, I'm asking with the assumption that your little rat terrier is typical of the breed, a fiesty little killer! I'd just like to hear you confirm, or deny that.

That all said, and assuming you've got a 'typical' terrier that loves to kill cute little furry animals, here's my next question:

In what ways does your dog's "breeding & tempermant" differ from that of a 'pitbull'???

I'm really looking forward to how you differentiate the prey drive behavior between the two...
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 11, 2012, 07:07 AM:
 
"How does it react toward small game? Is it aggressive, at all?
Will it catch & kill a rodent? Bunny? Squirrel? Cat?"

He loves to chase anything that gets in the backyard. I even went so far as to build squirrel feeders to chum a few in. He's only caught one, and he broke its back. Ever since, he's all terrier and is most alive when he's engaged in the chase. The baby girl is only 6 months old. The neighbor's cat walked by the back fence a couple nights ago while we were all in the backyard and Harley wooled it best he could from 6 feet away. Taz just kept running from him to me with her tail up, knowing she was supposed to do something but no ideas specifically what. So, to answer your question - the one you didn't really ask - yes, they are or will both be aggressive hunters - typical for terriers.

"In what ways does your dog's "breeding & tempermant" differ from that of a 'pitbull'???"

By about 60 pounds, give or take, plus the physiological ability to deliver a crushing bite because of the structural features of how the muscles controlling the mandible are attached to the skull. Also, rat terriers are only 1/3 true terrier. The remainder of their breeding is Italian greyhound and beagle, for speed and nose, respectively.

Both of our dogs have been handled in accordance with breeder recommendations, having been exposed to as many strangers as possible in the first 6 months of their lives. Ratties are very affectionate and I would challenge you to find them anywhere on anyone's "dangerous breed" list, for a reason. Certainly, they can be a nippy sort when cornered, but they won't just go off on their own in the absence of some sort of genuine triggering event.

My dogs have both been conditioned to fully understand the hierarchy in our home. Some who have watched me with either of them as youngsters have commented that maybe I'm a bit too stern with them. I'm not abusive, but when they display inappropriate behavior, I respond immediately and in such a manner that they understand that they did wrong. Most times, that's simply by stomping my foot toward them and yelling "no" loudly. If they push me, they would get a swat.

Dogs - ratties included - are packing animals. As I tell those who think I should be more lenient, they desire and seek out affirmation of their place in the pecking order. It helps them to know and reaffirm who they are and it's there that they find comfort. When I walk into the room, Harley will still come to me to get a stroke across the head or lick me under the chin in a show of submission. He needs to do that to feel the level of comfort he seeks and I let him get what he needs. Taz, on the other hand, is a bit more timid and now that she's completely house broke and knows the house rules, she and I are starting to warm to one another. She does the kissy thing and then she's okay once she has acknowledged that I am the alpha, as is Lisa, the kids are betas, and she and Harley are bringing up the rear.

When Harley was young, he would never have thought of taking food from my plate when I was eating. At the same time, if Tabor was sitting on the floor watching TV and eating, he'd take the food right out of her hand when she wasn't expecting it. I only had to bark at him once for him to establish that he was subservient to her and that there were consequences for his actions. Not a problem since.

Both dogs have their own kennels in the living room which we refer to as the "green zone" because they are safe once they get in there. Many times, Harley has "outed" himself for having screwed up by going there on his own for a self-imposed time out when he did something and knew he'd f'd up. If and when he does, it's time to start looking for whatever he did.

Both dogs are trained to kennel at my command and each has their own specific command to do so. For Harley, it's "Kennel!" (original, huh?) and for Taz, it's "Nap!". Say either with enough force, and they go. Of course, you could yell "daisies!" or "wombat!" in the same gruff voice and they'll go, but say either of the right commands in a soft, casual tone and they know to go.

Do we have any problems with aggression? yeah, Harley gets his fill of Taz and gets grumpy. Last week, he decided to lift his leg on one of the bedroom doors and Lisa saw him. She yelled for him and before I could get down the hall, he was across the room and in his kennel. He knew he'd screwed up and when I told him he was in time out for an hour (like he understand me, lol) he reared back and beared some teeth. Bad idea. I locked him in and then through a dixie cup full of cold water in his face as I yelled "no" at him. Ratties absolutely HATE water, so it was like throwing kryptonite at Superman. He spent the next hour trying to find a place to lay down that wasn't the wet spot, and when I let him out, he came straight to me, gave me licks under my chin in a show of respect and we were good from then on. No problems since.

Will "terriers" be terrors? Yep, but that attitude in a 15 pound dog is a bit more manageable than it is in a 75# dog. Despite his training, Harley has his moments and eventually, so will Taz. With them, being small, things can be managed by a show of overwhelming brute force, when needed. Larger breeds of terriers don't seem to have the back down gene in them.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 11, 2012, 11:24 AM:
 
Thanks cdog.
I should have been more direct with my question about "breeding & temperment" to exclude the obvious physiological differences between a rat terrier and a 'pitbull'. That goes without sayin'...

As for 'crushing power', there are PLENTY of breeds that actually have ALOT more 'crushing power' than a pitbull. The reason they can hold on like they do is simple power to weight ratio. But that doesn't make their jaw strength extraordinary, only extraordinary for their size.

So, in essense, your little rat terrier retains the same desire to chase, catch fight & kill, just the same as a 'pitbull', or any dog with a strong prey drive...

In the case of a 16mo. old baby, do you think a 15lb. rat terrier would physically be any less deadly than a 50 lb. 'pitbull'?

If a 15 lb. terrier full on attacked you on your route, would you all of a sudden get rid of your own dog, based on the actions of another of the same 'breed'?

Nothing personal, just keeping the debate going
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 11, 2012, 12:32 PM:
 
Not convincing, Fred. I have not heard of it and I would be very surprised to hear of a rat terrier killing a 16 month old. I can see them biting the hell out of a little kid but not grab the throat, rip it out, etc.

Not forgetting the jaw strength of a pit, what about the inbred instincts? Like has been described many times, they just snap, some sort of trigger not fully understood and me personally, I think it is a disservice to the public to describe a pit bull as a loving companion, no more prone to viciousness than the average umm? rat terrier? As long as you treat them with respect and kindness.

We all know they are not for everyone, and we all know they need to be watched carefully around children and other pets. And, we all know that they have killed a number of human beings, single y or with assistance from another dog.

Now, I hate to sound like the dumb fucks who are afraid of guns and therefore want to ban guns instead of not buying a gun for themselves. But, now that man has created this monstrosity, perhaps it is now time to start culling them and registering them like a Class III license for true machine guns? I mean, I'm just throwing it out there. Buy an insurance policy, get a special license if you admire the breed so much. The rest of them, get rid of them as a menace to the public at large. I mean really? Is that so unfair?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 11, 2012, 12:38 PM:
 
Last week, his name is "Tucker" and he's a littermate to Harley. About 20# - fat little bastard and all piss and vinegar. I maced him. He went home. Hell, I maced Harley's daddy, Jake, once several years ago. And no, I don't blame the breed. Then again, I can't recall the last time I read an article in the news of anyone being killed by a rattie.

By far, the worst ones we have to deal with here are boxers. Had done bail out of the bed of a truck and charge me from nearly a block away week before last. I didn't get to mace him because he had to cross a busy street to get to me and he came to within about 6 inches of eating the bumper of a car that almost hit him.

Had another one blow through a storm door and come across the street. Gave me plenty of time to aim. Got him.

The dog that actually got hold of me - shepard/lab - came out the front door and down the street through three different yards before he got to me.

Five years ago, I had a shepard try to come through the driver's side window of my mail truck to get me. I was on 911 and held the phone up to the window so the dispatcher could better appreciate my reason for calling. When the police got there, he was on the hood of that same truck with the driver's side windshield wiper arm in his teeth trying to rip it off of the truck, all the while scratching frantically at the windshield trying to get to me.

In my line of work, you operate under the premise that EVERY dog is dangerous until proven otherwise. As I tell customers who say, "Don't worry, He won't bite.", "if it has a teeth at one end and an asshole on the other, it WILL bite."

You encounter your dog each day, and how many others? I have 586 houses on my route. At least 400 of them have dogs. Of those, better than half have it in their mind that they will not be taken alive.

IF the dog is loose and attempts to make contact with me in any way, I am required by law to make a report. If they do contact me either by biting me, my satchel, or grabbing my clothes ion an aggressive manner, the police will cite them for vicious animal. The local Municipal Judge is Letter Carrier friendly and he has ordered that every single one of those animals be put down. One strike, they're out.

I try my best to convey this to my mail customers and tell them that I do not want their dog put down, asking that they PLEASE restrain their animal during delivery hours. In one instance, the customer called my Postmaster and claimed that I threatened to kill her dog for saying what I wrote ^^^.

Big dogs are bigger problems for me. Most smaller dogs will stop if I stomp my foot at them and yell "no". Most bigger dogs just downshift.

I know of carriers who have been bitten by dogs and suffered career ending injuries. In one instance, the bite severed a nerve in the man's upper leg and he can no longer walk without assistance.

Dogs are furniture to me in most cases. They're simply something you own. Not a child or family member, regardless of your feelings toward them. My first Postmaster started his career with USPS as a carrier and was well known for having killed a dog with his bare hands after his mace ran out and the dog insisted on continuing the fight. I have no reservations about doing the very same thing, except that I would very likely kill them "deader than necessary", as Gerry would say.

Hell, I even maced a big ol' tom cat one day who wouldn't let me off a customer's porch. he hissed. I pissed. I won.

Two weeks ago, I pulled into a driveway and there was a 4-foot long python that someone had obviously lost as a pet. I thought about macing it just to say I did, but I didn't. Called animal control and they hung up on me.

Moral of the story: Pits, rotties, shepards, dobermans, cocker spaniels, and dogs in general will get theier asses kicked or killed if they mess with the mailman. Either at the time, of shortly thereafter. When certain breeds show a definite trend toward being problem children, that breed becomes a target. It is what it is.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 11, 2012, 01:28 PM:
 
My parents used to own an apricot poodle, actually a beautiful dog but he was nervous and high strung. At the time, both me and my sister had toddlers and we would be over to mooch BBQ almost every weekend. But, that damned dog would bite a kid all the time and my mother would blame the kids. Even 2 or three years old, they knew enough to stay away from "Rebel" but that fucking dog would sneak up behind them and nip one in the ass or the calf. Used to make me so damned mad, we had a number of arguments about that dog but she defended it beyond reason. I'm writing this with something in mind, you figure it out, okay?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 11, 2012, 03:34 PM:
 
I'd be embarrassed to admit that I was bitten by an Apricot Poodle named Rebel. You need to forgive and forget LB, just let it go or go get some counseling.......BWAAAAAHAAAAAAA...an Apricot Poodle named Rebel HAAHAAHAAAAABWAAAHHH.....you poor bastard.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 11, 2012, 04:31 PM:
 
Well, I didn't choose a job that required daily interaction with animals that seemingly all want to kill me But there are about 8 million people living on Long Island and another 2.5 million in Queens where I work, so I see a few dogs on daily basis. There are plenty of dogs at the park I run mine at, after work, but they mainly stay in the fields and we go in the woods. So we only maybe interact with 15-30 per day there, coming & going...

<insert vicious pitbull pic>

Pokey playing 'tug-o-war' with a pitbull before heading home, today. Some dogs shouldn't be off leash at all, but that one pit is a friggin' wussbag

So does your postal route change daily, or are you dealing with the same "killer canines" on a daily basis?

If so, how many of these are 'pitbulls', and how many do you mace per day? Sounds like you need a friggin' fire extinguisher full of that shit!

You make it sound like you're runnin' the streets of Mogadishu in fear of your life every day to deliver the mail. Is it really THAT bad out there?

If your route is a constant daily endeavor, aren't you dealing with the same canines on a daily basis? Or, are the residents bringing in fresh meat for you to mace?

Don't you ever stop to get to know any of the dogs, or are they all instantly deemed enemies of the postal state?

quote:

---

Moral of the story: Pits, rotties, shepards, dobermans, cocker spaniels, and dogs in general will get theier asses kicked or killed if they mess with the mailman. Either at the time, of shortly thereafter. When certain breeds show a definite trend toward being problem children, that breed becomes a target. It is what it is.

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quote:

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IF the dog is loose and attempts to make contact with me in any way, I am required by law to make a report.

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I'm required by law to drive 55mph on the highway too...

[ May 11, 2012, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 11, 2012, 05:22 PM:
 

quote:

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I'd be embarrassed to admit that I was bitten by an Apricot Poodle named Rebel. You need to forgive and forget LB, just let it go or go get some counseling.......BWAAAAAHAAAAAAA...an Apricot Poodle named Rebel HAAHAAHAAAAABWAAAHHH.....you poor bastard.

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quote:

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It is absolutely against postal regulations for us to have any deliberate or intentional contact or interaction with any dog on the route.

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So, you can get written up for 'baby talking' or even going so far as to pet a pooch on route?

Ho-lee-shit, batman!

Heaven forbid a dog would get a quick sniff of you, then pass you off as unthreatening? That could mean you'd likely have one less potential target for the pansy can to paint!

Well, I guess all I can say is:

happy mace-ing?

You seem to hold a real fondness for it, almost comes across as bragging? But that might be me taking it wrong?

Anyhoo, it must be an awesome feeling of power & authority to blast a dog in the face for barking at you.
And it's gotta be completely over the top phenomenal to know that you've masterminded a dog's death sentence for getting in the way of your lawful duties as a United States Postal Worker.

BRAVO!

Keep fighting the good fight, by the book of course...
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 11, 2012, 08:13 PM:
 
Sorry, Fred, the dog has to be attacking for me to mace it. As far as bragging, call it what you want. If you're dumb enough to let your dog run loose and it causes a problem, both you and your dog get what you have coming to you. Officially, your dog attacking the mailman is regarded under law as battery on an agent of the federal government, so if'n you wanna push it, things can get a whole lot hairier for ya down the road.

Let me explain it a different way... you're sitting at work, behind your desk, lost in thought of the task at hand when all of a sudden, a 95 pound dog comes charging around the corner, teeth bared, lined up to tear a piece out of your ass. You're just doing your job and it's fair to assume that the guy that owns you office wants you there. Well, that little spot beneath your mailbox is my "office" for about 8 seconds a day, six days a week. It's where I work and I need to be able to do my job. Not that hard to wrap your head around, unless of course, you're okay with being attacked by a vicious dog at your job. Granted, its part of the job for me, and be assured that I will do everything I can legally do to mitigate and minimize any risk to my safety in doing my job. I have that right.

Jim,

Don't you fret. We have the loose dog/ no leash thing covered quite well, as do most communities. Dog running loose and not causing anyone any problem, simple leash law violation and worth about $60 plus court costs, assuming the dog is registered and has had its shots. If not, more fines.

Dog off its owner's property and makes a threatening gesture toward the complainant or makes physical contact with the complainant - possession of a vicious animal. Couple hundred in fines + court costs + animal is put down. You pay the bill.

Dog on owner's property and attempts to attack someone with a legal and lawful reason for being there, i.e., mail man, meter reader, paper boy, etc.., at a minimum, possession of a nuisance animal. Can't recall off the top of my head what the fines are for that, but you only get one mulligan. Second count means the animal is gone.

You guys can get all bent out of shape if you want, but for the most part, nothing with the laws is any different concerning dogs today than they were a year or ten years ago. The breeds you're trying to protect and defend are the source of the problem. What you know is what you read in the media. People like myself and Cronk have seen the outcome of irresponsible people owning these breeds and creating volatile situations.

In my town, you can walk down the street in the evening and know that you don't have to be alert to stray dogs and the dangers they present. Our animal control staff is fulltime and they're doing a great job of responding to dogs at large. It's really very simple: keep your animal restrained. Take measures to ensure that your animal is not a threat to other people. We won't tolerate it. This town has decided that it doesn't want pit bulls within its city limits and that's the rule of law. If you don't like it, we won't miss ya. I don't lose sleep over it.

"the book of course"

As to this remark, I don't know you, what you do for a living or your personal background, but within the USPS, we are micromanaged, like it or not, and the rules we have to follow are specific, as are the consequences for stepping outside of those policies. You violate certain rules and you are gone. No warnings, no second chances. We don't get asked for our opinions and input as to the policies we get handed down to us.

Just so you know, I can't think of a single thing either of you can say that will change my opinion of pits and other breeds of that sort. I don't like 'em and don't see a rational reason for their existence. If you love 'e, bully for you. Just love 'em someplace else. We will have to agree to disagree.

[ May 11, 2012, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 11, 2012, 08:17 PM:
 
I don't get that at all Fred? I think he is trying to deliver mail and must deal with aggressive dogs. If a dog was trying to bite me, I would use the mace and I don't see how you can think he enjoys defending himself?

Make no mistake, I am a dog lover. I have zero sympathy for aggressive dogs, especially when there are people walking up to the door on a daily basis and the owner does not keep the dog from charging people in the yard.

I am totally against dogs within a city limits that pull that shit, unless somebody enters the house. But, at the very least the dog deserves to get maced and the owner deserves to lose the animal. I think it is undeserved to accuse Lance of enjoying macing a dog and being responsible for the dog being destroyed.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on May 11, 2012, 08:35 PM:
 
Cdog i think the dogs on your rout must see and smell fear on you if you have that many encounters.
try not looking so fearful pal.

Also just because a dog looks mean don't make them mean .
My Sofia is on the list for dog with attitude and she really just a trickster

Sofia


she tricks the mail man and his can of fire into the yard.
then just when the mailman thinks it safe Peaches will show up .
and peaches lets just say she knows the game

Peaches


yep you wouldn't fair so well if you worked my rout

[ May 11, 2012, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 11, 2012, 09:32 PM:
 

quote:

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I think it is undeserved to accuse Lance of enjoying macing a dog and being responsible for the dog being destroyed.

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quote:

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I've personally been credited with sending four different dogs to the gas chamber, and only one of them actually got hold of me. After that one, the boss asked me if I was okay to keep carrying and I told him that I kill "dogs" for fun and recreation. Let me carry something with a bit more bite than the weak-assed pepper spray they give us and I could guaran-damned-tee him that once word got around, there wouldn't be so much as a hint of a dog problem in this town for some time.

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quote:

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I don't get that at all Fred? I think he is trying to deliver mail and must deal with aggressive dogs. If a dog was trying to bite me, I would use the mace and I don't see how you can think he enjoys defending himself?

---

No kidding, Leonard. But where's the friggin' suprise about a mailman having to deal with dogs on a daily basis? And barking dogs, no less?

I say again: ho-lee-shit batman!

Any dog that won't bark at the mailman is either:

1. dead
or...
2. a cat

And thanks, Jimzy, for quoting that. It was exactly that line which read as though he took pride in dealing with & getting rid of those problem dogs.

No matter, I'm about done with this point. I'm not dumb enough to think that I'll change anyone's mind. And especially so, the mind of a Federal postal employee with a "doggy racist" mentality who puts his life in danger on a daily basis, and thereby forced into the inalienable position of protecting against the bloodthirsty hoards of canine gladiators who seek to destroy him along his route.

Just maintaining that dogs will be dogs, and some of them will be bad ones. And ya can't blame a breed for the actions of an individual...

That is, unless koko has some compelling pitbull factoids he's learned to help us confirm/deny that they are nothing more than 95 lb. Kevlar impregnated,wanton infant killers with jaws that will snap a man's leg right in half?

Oh...and what was your point about the poodle, Leonard?
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 12, 2012, 05:43 AM:
 

 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 12, 2012, 05:53 AM:
 

 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 12, 2012, 05:56 AM:
 

quote:

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Nick,
Haven't we all seen coyotes take shots that should have put them down, yet they just kinda limp off, never to be found?
Do you really believe that a 'pitbull's' head/body is bulletproof? Or was it more likely that the 4 bullets it took were just not lethal hits?
(and I kinda wonder how many shots were actually fired in that messy situation, but I ain't going there!)
BTW, a skull deflecting a bullet isn't out of the realm of possibility if the angle of attack is not direct.

Didn't someone lose a lion on stand awhile back, for taking a head shot at close range when the bullet "bounced off" the skull???

And how many hooople deer hunters pulverize deer every season with crappy shot placement from .30-06s & 7mms, then claim how extradordinarily hard it is to kill one? We all know that is completely BULLSHIT.

One more thing.
That dog that bit you was a Lab, right?
Did that vicious and unprovoked 'attack' make the evening news? If not, why not?

What if the dog that bit you was a 'pitbull'? Any doubt in your mind THAT 'attack' would have made the news???

Why didn't you guys open fires on the Lab?

If it were a 'pitbull', would you have shot it?

Was the Lab put down for attacking you?
If not, why not???

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Geez Fred I'm not sure where you are going with all this. My main point about the pitbull was that it was one tuff sumbitch. That's it. I don't have anything against pitbulls (or any other breeds) that aren't taught improperly, eg. Michael Vick.

I didn't see the necropsy, but there was a hole in the pit's face, not a glancing shot off the skull, or so I was told.

The lab didn't run the gauntlet because I was the first one at the call, and was the only LEO present at the time. Backup arrived after I had been bitten.

I do agree with you on one point though, if it had been a pitbull that bit me, and this piece of information had been acquired by the newspapers, they would have plastered the story on the front page of the Newark Star Ledger.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 12, 2012, 08:01 AM:
 
Sorry LB I thought you said that YOU were bit by an Apricot Poodle......didn't mean to make light of your children being bitten. Too bad it wasn't you, I was kinda looking forward to mocking you some more, oh well.

I can see both sides of this debate but even as a dog lover I will stand behind Lances actions as being perfectly acceptable. I get the joy of working inside peoples homes while they are gone and my policy about dogs is made clear up front.....lock it up for however long the job takes or find another contractor.

I refuse to be in a position to be bitten again and I wont be responsible for an escaped pet. Pets are ALWAYS cuddly while your there with the owner but that same cuddly pet might rip your face off if you show up by yourself, we all know this from personal experience with our own pets and working dogs, why is it hard to understand that Lance would have that problem with most of the houses he visits that have dogs?
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 12, 2012, 08:06 AM:
 
Admittedly, I was just being a jerk there, Nick.
I sure don't wish dog bites on anyone, and I certainly wouldn't want to be in the position of having to shoot one to protect myself. If a big enough dog did get ahold of me, there'd be a Benchmade inserted somewhere between the first few ribs, without hesitation...

Wanna hear some ironic shit?

I just left for the woods with my the dog & mountain bike. Shortly upon commencing our ride/run to the woods, we were summarily ATTACKED by a pair of rogue dogs at large. Pokey was waay too fast to get bit and was just swatting & snapping at his combatant, but my attacker bit and got ahold on the side of my clip-in riding shoe, LOL! I just slid off the seat and shook it off. Darn thing almost tore off the Velcro strap, the nerve!!!

Both dogs looked like some type of generic Heinz 57 cockerpoodlepugashitz, about 20 lbs. each.

I shit you not, that really just happened! Guess I had that coming

Gonna swap out the water bottle on the bike for a 32 oz. can of bear spray and start paintin' some muzzles next time!!!

this aggression will not stand, man!!!
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 12, 2012, 09:30 AM:
 
Holy smokes that is ironic. I'm glad you and your dog weren't hurt, Fred.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 12, 2012, 09:58 AM:
 
To those noble warriors who have left the room. I kind of, it didn't register, the same for me, what Lance said. I agree, his own words sound like he enjoys macing an attacking dog. However, if the situation is Groundhog Day all over again, I can also understand how he might do a little end zone dance when the offender gets a mouthful of mace, even if it is completely mental.

Fred my post about that damned poodle included these words: "defended it beyond reason." meaning Mom.....in that particular case. That was and still is the point.

Maybe pit bulls are misunderstood lovable creatures, but as far as I'm concerned, they only get one strike. I never have seen an aggressive Lab, can't recall anyway?

By the way, I one emptied a .45 at a charging coyote from less than ten feet, more like 5 (all hits) and finished him off with a football sized rock.

Good hunting. LB

edit: PS all those labs are uniformly overfed, maybe that's why they are never aggressive? Maybe?

[ May 12, 2012, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 12, 2012, 11:13 AM:
 
I've seen aggressive labs, my neighbor has one that would routinely attack my wife while she was walking our dogs (hunting dogs) It was very difficult for her to hold on to our dogs while this went on....anyways I took em for a walk and when that bastard came screaming out into the road with his teeth bared and hair standing up on his back I simply reached down and unclipped my 65lb Terrier bitch and gave the command. It was an ugly scene for about 5 seconds. The next time I walked past the dumb bastard came screaming out from around the house made it halfway down the driveway and saw who it was and literally slid on all 4 paws, turned around and yelped all the way into the back yard. He's not the only lab that I've seen that is aggressive.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 12, 2012, 11:18 AM:
 
LOL, that's too funny Fred, did you break their teeth with the clip?
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 12, 2012, 11:29 AM:
 
Fred that is ironic!
JD you maybe should send your bitch to Lance for a week or so that'll clean up his route right quick.

[ May 12, 2012, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 12, 2012, 11:43 AM:
 
Yea I suppose I could loan her to Lance for a week, LOL, actually I didn't like doing that but it needed done, some people just can't understand what it takes to be responsible with dogs. That's just one dog in my neighborhood......I can't blame any mailman for macing a dog, even if it's only barking.
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 12, 2012, 11:53 AM:
 
I agree there are good dogs bad dogs good owners and bad owners. niether I feel is breed specfic.
That said there is a graet deal of gang related pitbull ownership and I m sure this has brought about much of the bad rap for pits. Bad owners with bad dogs.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 12, 2012, 12:39 PM:
 

quote:

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I can't blame any mailman for macing a dog, even if it's only barking.

--------------------
Jason

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He just can't enjoy it.

Good hunting. LB

PS how many scalps on your lodgepole, Lance?

edit: man, am I the agent provocateur today or what?

[ May 12, 2012, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 12, 2012, 01:11 PM:
 
I can just see Lance doing and end zone dance after a direct hit to the muzzle I know I would!
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 12, 2012, 01:17 PM:
 

 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 12, 2012, 01:38 PM:
 

quote:

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LOL, that's too funny Fred, did you break their teeth with the clip?

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Na, that little fawker had me in front of the clip, kind of around the left pinky toe. The clip in mechanism is more centered in the shoe.

I guess those shoes are built well enough to handle the torque of clip-in pedals, cause I didn't even feel teeth through the material. And it was a smallish sized mutt.
Prolly wouldn't have been as funny if it were bigger dogs! But then again, if it was, I'm pretty sure Poke would have gone 'full retard' on a more imposing threat...

The lady who owned the dogs was mortified, but I was already cracking up at the irony. I mean, what are the odds???

Maybe I need to go play Lotto, or sumthin'!?!
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 12, 2012, 02:08 PM:
 
Knockemaround;
That's proof that Gawd has a sense of humor!!!

I carry a nasal spray bottle with the hole slightly enlarged on my mountain bicycle. It's filled with Windex & skunk juice...............
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 12, 2012, 02:57 PM:
 
HEY kOkO
AFTER 7 PAGES OF OPINIONS HOWS YUR PUP.

[ May 12, 2012, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 12, 2012, 04:23 PM:
 
YEAH!!! We need a pupdate!!!

Here's an update on granny.
The hole in her leg has healed, and she's even been able to take her other granchild to the zoo...



Glad to see she's not too old to learn from her mistakes...

[ May 12, 2012, 04:24 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 12, 2012, 05:14 PM:
 
Fredrick. i very much enjoy your posts here and on other forums but am a bit taken aback on on your responces on this thread.
Cdog has given us an insight into his DAILY routine. i don't see him bullshitting.
i get out quite abit and visit LOTS of people in various bussneses. there is a REASON why i'm usually greeted by a lab/g-retreiver at the steps instead of a pitt.
Fred. in all honesty, lets say you pulled up to a remote ranchers yard in bumm-f--ked MT to ask permission to hunt coyotes. would YOU step out of the truck if 3-4 pitts were outside??.
how about 3-4 labs??.
apples to apples here??.i've personaly been around HUNDREDS of labs/retrievers in my life and have seen very few that have had any mean,crabby,growly,nippy tendisties. i have NOT been around many pitts and don't plan on it. bout the only time i see pitts is when i'm traveling through the various Rez's in the area. HHHMMMMMMMM?????????.

[ May 12, 2012, 05:20 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 12, 2012, 05:24 PM:
 
It's touching to know I have so many friends watching my back. Thanks. Been busy working all day NOT macing dogs.

I guess I should try and make one last attempt to explain this alleged end zone dance issue a bit better.

Dogs are a part of the job. It isn't a matter of if a dog is gonna try and get you. It's when, and how intent will they be. That's the facts. You just can't expect everyone to keep their dog restrained.

Now, in fourteen years, I don't know how many dogs I've maced. The first one was on my second day. Inside two weeks, I was up to about five.

It wasn't until this past December that a dog finally got hold of me. Up to then, I'd managed to apply my coyote hunting savvy every time and maintain my cool-hand Luke composure to secure my pepper spray, aim, and neutralize. It was a record I was quite proud of - not macing dogs, but protecting myself from actually getting bit.

Getting bit is a bitch. No matter who was at fault, USPS holds us 50% to blame. We always end up having the union fight our fight to avoid disciplinary action because, in their eyes, we let the dog bite us. That's bullshit, and most of our managers were one carriers, but they forget what it was like on the street once their asses fuse to that cushy chair they give them.

Do I enjoy macing dogs? I don't know that I enjoy it, but I do revel in the fact that me getting the drop on them has kept me from shedding blood once again and, for that, I am always happy. Kinda like the bomb tech who celebrates every time he defuses an IED. Every one that leaves you with all ten fingers is a job well done.

Fred, I'm printing the Dos Eches beer guy to hang at my work station.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 12, 2012, 06:17 PM:
 
Lance, don't flatter yourself too much. My defense is complicated.

I absolutely love Man's best friend but when that close relationship turns into vicious unprovoked attacks, well, then I'm on the side of the human being attacked. A dog that can't distinguish between Treyvon, who doesn't belong in the neighborhood, and a 16 month old family member is a fucking menace that has to be dealt with before something bad happens. Severe culling seems the least we can do.

Mailmen? Soft cushy insulated government job, not so much. But, I can easily determine right from wrong and if some dumb son of a bitch wants his mail at his door every day, he better learn to control his dog.

If I was a mail man, I fucking guarantee ya, I would mace and then kick the shit out of any dog trying to get a piece of me. Fire me for overzealous defense if you want, but no fucking dog is going to get away with stroking his owner's ego on ME.....and that's what it is. An ego trip.

These assholes GET OFF on their dogs terrorizing everybody they can get at. People can usually get a dog to do what they want done and many of these guys want their dog to be aggressive. Period.

Even Jimbo would agree, had he not left the room.

Good hunting. LB

[ May 12, 2012, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 12, 2012, 08:52 PM:
 
Kay-Nine Update;
I've bought her some `toys` at yard sales. Some of them didn't last too long & my patio was a mess between the toys & a chewed up, shredded doggie bed. Got out the leaf-blower to put everything in a corner where I can broom it up.
This dog (that loves chasing a stream of water out of the hose) stands in front of the blower and bites at the air coming out of the end of it. When the air hits her face just right, it blows everything up & she looks like Louie Armstrong on the trumpet.
I'm not sure what Cesar Millan would do, but it cracks me up.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on June 03, 2012, 03:42 PM:
 
Koko. you still around??
http://www.keloland.com/NewsDetail6162.cfm/SD_Man_Injured_By_Two_Pit_Bulls/?Id=132519
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on June 03, 2012, 04:09 PM:
 
Still here with all of my body parts.

Had the hard headed one out in the back 40 the other day. I have a number of 2D silhouettes around the property. Kokopelli's, misc. rock art figures, & coyotes. Most of the coyotes are the standard issue sitting in the howling position with a bandanna around the neck. A couple of the coyotes, though, are from the N.F.A.A. archery animal round. Plywood cut-outs painted black.
Seems the wonder dog was approaching one of the coyote silhouettes from on end, where it probably just looked like a stick until she got even with it. When she turned her head & saw the `big dog` right next to her she did some pretty funny gyrations getting out of the way.

BTW; That archery coyote target makes a fine rifle target that one can also use for learning to judge distance thru the scope. I made a template that I lay on a piece of cardboard & spray paint with black around the edges. Quick, easy, & cheap.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on June 03, 2012, 04:54 PM:
 
neat on the target idea.
got TOTALLY bummed out yesterday. took a canoe trip up the river and found one of my (if not) the biggest buck on my land DEAD!!. no idea how he died but the coyotes had him eaten up. guessing him to be a 6-7 year old.
Denise and i canoe'd way back in to call early this a.m. but my damn Foxpro was dead (batteries Tim) . so i set some traps. fawns are hitting the ground now and with limeted cover their easy pickins. heres him last Nov with 1 side broken off and him now along with a scenic shot




watch out for them puzzy type Pitt's Koko.
their said to be the worst
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 03, 2012, 07:51 PM:
 
Was'nt that the buck your wife shot at and thought she missed?? Also thought you mentioned all the deer being wiped out in your area by wolves..

As for the F-P and dead batteries i here that happens alot maybe they could come up with a beeper or something to let you know you left it on..LOL
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on June 04, 2012, 03:25 AM:
 
no Tim. here's the one she missed. (she thinks).
.

14 yards. was very cold out and had to struggle pulling her bow back.

few wolves here. no real population.
 

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