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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 17, 2011, 12:17 PM:
I guess we're not alone. Tom Grisham's Gun Talk radio program today has dedicated some time to the subject of overzealous LEO's. Even had two different LEO's call in and refer to their brethren in the cases they've discussed as "SS" types.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 17, 2011, 12:32 PM:
I would like to draw a distinction between members and Law Enforcement issues, as a whole. Our members are free to voice opinion, for or against, it matters not, to me.
However, I want to express my personal attitude and opinion. My stance is zero tolerance for misbehavior, and L.E. should theoretically be above reproach. In other words, don't do anything that calls their behavior into question and everything's kool.
If it comes down to offing an innocent citizen, versus a police officer; well they volunteered to serve and protect. Just a couple days ago, locally, a collision while responding to a call left an officer dead. I hope this is not due to overzealousness, the cowboy attitude where they crave ACTION.
gh....lb
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on July 17, 2011, 12:50 PM:
The tide is changing toward LEO's conduct and procedures, it has been for years. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
What part of what you did 10 or 20 years ago is no longer acceptable, do they not understand?
For the simple minds, WOULD you fight the Afghanistan and Iraq conflict like you did in WWII or Korea. How about Vietnam for you younger gentlemen?
Shit if what they did in WWII was cool, why not repeat it again and see what happened in the Gulf War?
TURDS do come in different shape,sizes and color, one should adapt to the situation at hand.
[ July 17, 2011, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 17, 2011, 12:57 PM:
I think Leonard is referring to this line of duty death, killed while responding to a robbery call:
http://www.glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1355071
http://www.odmp.org/officer/20893-police-officer-ryan-stringer
RIP, Brother.
[ July 17, 2011, 01:00 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on July 17, 2011, 12:59 PM:
Nick what link did I miss as to what Leonard was meaning? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 17, 2011, 01:03 PM:
Leonard made this statement Ken:
quote:
Just a couple days ago, locally, a collision while responding to a call left an officer dead. I hope this is not due to overzealousness, the cowboy attitude where they crave ACTION
The only CA officer recently killed in the line of duty was the officer mentioned on the two links I provided. He was killed responding to a robbery call. It sounds like he was more the hero, and less the cowboy craving action.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 17, 2011, 01:09 PM:
I don't have a link, nor any particular point, maybe the event was just one of those things? Should cops drive recklessly, responding to a robbery? These guys are trained in
USA scored!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 17, 2011, 01:11 PM:
....driving techniques. There shouldn't be an excuse for what happened. That's all I meant, and I am sorry that it happened, to be clear.
gh....lb
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 17, 2011, 01:52 PM:
Two points to offer, but first, sorry to hear about the officer's death.
First, I've driven more than my fair share of miles with lights and sirens on, whether that's in patrol cars, fire trucks, or ambuli. In every instance, and with each of the three departments I worked for, we had driving protocols that emphasized the fact that the lights and sirens were simply to alert others that we were in the area and to yield right of way, and not to grant us the right of way and a free pass to blow through intersections and stop lights. Many a time, I sat stopped at a red light with the yelp on my siren raging because cross traffic didn't know we were there. I hope that wasn't the case with this guy and, admittedly, I haven't had time to pursue the links Leonard provided.
Second, the times have definitely changed. If, for no other reason than the very fact that the public's perception of the government is changing with each day of this recession, joblessness, so on and so forth. Most Americans feel increasingly helpless against a federal government being led by a man many believe to be a socialist and who are barraging us with more and more in their attempts to take away our money, our assets and our rights. With the feds paying less, state, county and local governments are having to step in and stake claims to more of what we have to cover their expenses.
What's my point?
Simply, the public perception of governmental intrusion is growing at an alarming rate and, from where we stand, the government goes about doing this by using laws, enforced by law enforcement officials. If the government wants what you have, and you don't just hand it over, they'll send their people - police, sheriff, whatever - to do the arm twisting on their behalf. Pretty consistent with what the Nazis did in the 20th century, so to most people, the correlation isn't all that far fetched. As as LEO, you may not like where people's minds turn when they feel intruded upon by over reaching authority, but it's the nature of the beast and I think law enforcement would do well to measure their actions carefully against an increasingly riled proletariat. Again, this goes back to most people feeling sincerely that how we enforce the laws is a reflection of societal values, mores and norms, and when law enforcement engages in actions that we, as a society, feel is outside the realm of those acceptances, things will change, be that for good, or for bad.
Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on July 17, 2011, 03:15 PM:
Lance,
I have no beef with LEO's, but I do see your point.
In Russell County, the undersheriff is, let me say this nicely, a bit over-zealous in his duties. The sheriff even has told me that 'he likes his job just a bit too much'.
He just got back from a 16 week training program at the FBI Academy, and it seems that now Russell County, Kansas needs to be brought into the 21st Century.
He has written a grant to get a surplus assault vehicle from some SWAT team someplace to be housed in a county of 9,000 people---just nuts!! They have formed their own version of a SWAT team and it is ridiculous...guess they are living out their fantasies at the taxpayer's expense.
I could see this guy having no problem going house to house with his 'new vehicle' to disarm the folks...that is pretty scary!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 17, 2011, 03:30 PM:
Yes, 49. I did make that statement and stand by it. I see no reason , no justification for fatal crashes while responding to a robbery. Is there some sort of flaw in my reasoning?
gh....lb
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on July 17, 2011, 03:55 PM:
I do feel bad for young officer Stringer, I really do..
Sounds like reckless driving though..On the part of both officers involved.
(Edit) whats going on @ 2:30 am ? somebody robbing 7-eleven and stealing $200 bucks ?
[ July 17, 2011, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on July 17, 2011, 03:58 PM:
My county purchased a used APC about 10 years ago. Not sure what they use it for as most times I see it just sitting behind the county jail...
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 17, 2011, 04:05 PM:
quote:
Yes, 49. I did make that statement and stand by it. I see no reason , no justification for fatal crashes while responding to a robbery. Is there some sort of flaw in my reasoning?
There is no flaw in your reasoning that I can tell Leonard, when you state your case that way. I would agree there is no justification for fatal crashes while responding to a robbery or otherwise. However in your earlier post you mentioned a "cowboy attitude" and craving "ACTION." You are assuming the officer died due to his own recklessness. The man was doing his job, and lossed his life doing so. He isn't the first police officer to die in the line of duty while responding to a hot call, and he won't be the last. Accidents can and do happen while driving under high stress circumstances.
[ July 17, 2011, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 17, 2011, 04:35 PM:
booger,
Especially ridiculous when you consider that KHP offers the services of their TRAINED assault team to any other agency in the state. Was a guy in Chapman who insisted on wearing khaki ACU's all the time. After the tornado, he strutted around wearing his khakis, tucked into and bloused at his Hi-Tec boots, a vest to carry extra radios and mags and whatever he felt he needed in the event of a sudden outbreak of looting and what not. It was good to see all those people whose lives had been upended have something to laugh at.
Reminds me of the old joke where this guys shed catches on fire. Contained therein is a lot of stuff that's valuable to him. he calls the local volunteer fire department and here they come rounding the bend and down the hill in their only fire truck, sirens a wailing. Gung ho as hell, they drive the truck right up to the fire where they jump out and, more so a matter of self preservation, put everything they have into fighting that fire. Never before had they acted with such courage and shown such willingness to fight a fire. When the fire was out, the farmer goes up to the chief and tells him he's going to give the fire dept a hefty reward for their bravery and for putting the fire out so quickly. The crowd cheers and the farmer's wife asks the chief what he's gonna spend all that money on. Chief says, "Well, first thing I'm gonna do is get new brakes on that gawddamned fire truck!"
Moral to the story: they may buy it, but that don't mean any of them have sense enough to know how to use it.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on July 17, 2011, 05:09 PM:
quote:
Moral to the story: they may buy it, but that don't mean any of them have sense enough to know how to use it.
My years on the fire dept confirm that satement 100%........people seem to have this unquechable desire to have the biggest and best equip. available......I always contended that we should find sober volunteers with triple digit IQs before we spend hunderds of thousands on equipment.
Of course if you employ the intelligence and common of those people, whether they be FD or LE, you'll soon discover that new equip. wasn't needed at all, or at least very seldom.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 17, 2011, 05:17 PM:
quote:
However in your earlier post you mentioned a "cowboy attitude" and craving "ACTION."
I stand by that, as well. Nothing new. That's why they work graveyard, it's where all the action is.
gh....lb
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on July 17, 2011, 06:05 PM:
Gonna make an obvious comment that will be ignored. Leonard said, "I hope this is not due to overzealousness, the cowboy attitude..."
49's comments imply LB asserted that it WAS a cowboy attitude.
Big difference.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 17, 2011, 08:00 PM:
Quit confusing us with facts Okanagan.
I don't know about anywhere else but here I was told 10 mph over was the limit unless of course in a chase. Even then due to a kid wrecking and killing himself while being chased, chases are kinda frowned upon.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 17, 2011, 08:13 PM:
"Of course if you employ the intelligence and common (sense?) of those people, whether they be FD or LE, you'll soon discover that new equip. wasn't needed at all, or at least very seldom."
That's some funny chit right there, JD. LOL It has been my experience, with a few exceptions, that in most non-fulltime departments and reserve units, everyone wants the newest, bestest equipment, but the powers that be won't buy it because no one has the training to use it. At the same time, no one wants to subject themselves to the rigors of undertaking said training because the department lacks the gear necessary to make that learning of any use. A classic catch-22 that boils down to a bunch of guys with too much testosterone and free time wanting to look all cock of the walk as long as they don't have to break a sweat in training or actual application. In my last FD, we convinced and encouraged our members to undergo training to get everyone to a minimum Firefighter II levels, sent the old dogs through Engineer training, and all the higher ups through every level plus Fire Company Officer training. When that was all said and done, the bean counters saw the benefit and built a new station with all new apparatuses. I'm no longer affiliated with that bunch, but much of what we did back then is still the rule and I'd put that bunch of volunteers up against any fulltime crew any day. In fact, career FF's from Wichita were recently in their home town drilling on structure fire suppression and ventilation techniques. Those guys (and gals) can walk the talk and I'm proud of what they've done there.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on July 17, 2011, 10:45 PM:
Nick, neither link you provided says a whole lot as to what really happened. Sad for this young man indeed. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Seen that situation many times over the years.
Have been a traffic cop for many years, many questions get raised when two police cars collide at high speed at 2:30am. Someone was wrong both in policy and law when this happens.
Your thoughts?
[ July 17, 2011, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on July 18, 2011, 08:28 AM:
Lance forgot to say good analogy of one's expectations when driving with red lights and siren.
Your right it is not a pass to blow intersections or drive into opposing traffic lanes.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 18, 2011, 12:39 PM:
quote:
Your thoughts?
Respectfully Ken, my only thoughts are that a young man was responding to a robbery call and lost his life, and that some here are attempting to find fault with it.
[ July 18, 2011, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 18, 2011, 12:50 PM:
quote:
49's comments imply LB asserted that it WAS a cowboy attitude.
Whether Leonard implied or asserted it, he is finding fault with with the actions of a police officer who lost his life in a motor vehicle crash while responding to a robbery call.
quote:
That's why they work graveyard, it's where all the action is
Now he is asserting that cops work the graveyard shift because "they" crave action. He is completely discounting typical law enforcement issues, such as manpower considerations, rotating shift issues, scheduling issues due to vacation, off time, sick time, etc. Perhaps the officer worked night shift because he had family issues, like child care issues with a wife working full time? Of course these issues are discounted.
This site most definately has a "them vs. us" attitude when it comes to law enforcement.
[ July 18, 2011, 12:54 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on July 18, 2011, 02:16 PM:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your thoughts?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Respectfully Ken, my only thoughts are that a young man was responding to a robbery call and lost his life, and that some here are attempting to find fault with it.
Even though tragic on it's face, you wish to set aside other issue just because this officer was responding to a robbery call?
What would you say if this young officer had collided with a civilian motorist enroute to the call killing them? It could of happened and has happened MANY times over the years.
This tragic incident is clearly a preventable incident, and unfortunately raises questions.
WE both know that both units were probably hauling ass to the call as cops do. Someone blew an intersection, red light or stop sign and collided. When that happens at high speed someone generally dies.
There is unfortunate fault with this incident. Lack of training, lack of personal control, bad supervision, but preventable.
I am sorry to say there is fault with this situation on the mere fact two police cars collided at 2:30am.
Anyone paying attention to that would ask questions. SO that persons belief is not baseless. And that person asking questions is not wrong or trying to create a problem.
LB is not incorrect in his question. I worked graveyard for 80% of my career. WHY, that is where the action is.
Less BS calls for service, more patrol time to look for TURDS committing crimes, LESS report calls etc.
YES cowboys might work graveyard by choice or by order.
One can drive faster to calls on graveyard versus other shifts. But if you crash because your driving like a fool, then your ASS belongs to the boss.
[ July 18, 2011, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 18, 2011, 02:46 PM:
quote:
I am sorry to say there is fault with this situation on the mere fact two police cars collided at 2:30am
This is correct, Ken. However, you asked me my thoughts and I gave them to you. Here are some more thoughts:
The anti-LE people here will look for fault.
The pro-LE people will see a line of duty death, understand the reasons of how or why this may have happened, and move on.
This, in effect, is the clash we have here at Huntmasters.
[ July 18, 2011, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on July 18, 2011, 03:36 PM:
Unfortunately Nick, You are missing the point.
I don't think, at least I would hope, there's not one of us here that doesn't feel remorse for the loss of the patrolman's life. That's just not the way anyone should look at this terrible incidence.
What is being said here is questioning how such an event could occur. The most likely and probable cause is excessive speed, that being a direct connection to the gungho cowboy versus bad guy attitude many officers have. Catching a robbery subject is a big feather in many caps. That in iself will often lead to bigger things. If nothing else, the team elation and pats on the back from fellow officers and the community in general.
This "Hero" mentality by some LEO fuels dangerous situations that should be avoided at all cost. Driving at high speeds on public streets in a 4000lb vehicle is a weapon with a hair trigger and the safety off... not something I want to think about meeting in the middle of an intersection as I'm heading home from work or the grocery store.
The attitude on this board isn't about them versus us, it's about "them" believing they control us and "we" should do exactly as "they" command. Truth is, I think most would agree it should be "Them and Us" against the criminals and bad guys. Unfortunately "WE"(all of us,LEO included)don't get that option.
The officer that lost his life may or may not have been to blame and I know the other officer is going through his own hell regardless... I will say a prayer for all and ask that the rest of you consider doing the same.
Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on July 18, 2011, 03:42 PM:
Nikon, you make some very valid points.
And as always, you conduct yourself respectfully.
I won't say I agree 100%, but I do appreciate your candor.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 18, 2011, 04:52 PM:
49, nothing I have said should be considered prejudicial, I'm just working with what I have and calling a spade a spade.
On the other hand.
gh....lb
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on July 18, 2011, 05:12 PM:
Tragic accident yes, avoidable maybe, cowboy/hero attitude possibly. I want them to respond as fast as possible. Do I want them to endanger motorist, or take unnecessary risk? No. If it is a home invasion, armed robbery, etc. I want them to haul ass. If it is at my house and I am home, then they will probably be responding to a dead robber, but if I am not at home and my family is hiding in a closet, I want them there quickly. I don't really care what there mental make-up is, as long as they make sound decisions and use caution to avoid making a situation more dangerous.
I have found that most law enforcement (that I know) work swing and graveyard because it works for their family, or they don't have seniority to get a day shift.
I also love our county sheriff. He is conservative, gets inmates out to shovel snow out of the bus stops in the winter, keeps crime low, and probably saves the county money by making sound decisions. The city police are on the other side of the aisle and our pretty poorly ran.
[ July 18, 2011, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: tlbradford ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 18, 2011, 05:28 PM:
49, your attitude is showing.
I have not said anything much different than what niko said above, and you complimented him and act like I'm completely anti police regardless of the facts.
Sum ting wong, Amigo.
gh....lb
edit: tl, Ken previously admitted the reason why a good percentage want to work the graveyard. Because that's where the action is, not because they lack seniority. I SAID, "A GOOD PERCENTAGE".
[ July 18, 2011, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on July 18, 2011, 07:54 PM:
Edited my post to state that is my personal experience with the 10 or so that I know.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 18, 2011, 08:15 PM:
TL, I'm far from the last word on the subject. Just a question to consider. Is it possible that the ten cops that you know are not being completely honest, since it's not PC to admit they crave the action and the recognition/promotions that go along with it?
I'm not particularly in the "know" on the issue, but I am pretty sure there is something to it. Especially when some of them stay way longer than seniority would allow them to get out.
gh....lb
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on July 18, 2011, 09:06 PM:
It is a poor sample size that I am pulling from. With the exception of a retired state trooper, the group as a whole is younger than 37, and many have been a part of law enforcement for less than 10 years. I haven't delved too deeply into the subject with all of them, but half worked graveyard until a day shift was available, a couple work the shift because they have spouses going to school and they need to watch kids during the day, and thats about all the polling I have done. I wouldn't doubt that all of them enjoyed the action as well, since it would make your shift go by more quickly, but I have not specifically asked them that. I do know several veterans that have experienced live combat, who have stated that they craved a job that gave them that same type of adrenaline rush, and had a hard time adjusting to a 9 to 5 job that was mundane.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on July 19, 2011, 07:07 AM:
I say a few guys worked graveyards because the wife worked or went to school during the day, so the kids needed to be watched.
But working graves requires some regular sleep otherwise your in a bad way before the sun comes up. It kicks your butt when you get older.
But graveyard does not have all those report calls to deal with from businesses that are open, the schools who can't deal with their problem students, all the public relations crap that needs to be done, the list is endless. The big bosses are not around unless something big happens, shit that alone is worth working graveyard. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
You had the senior guys who always picked day shift so they could have the weekends off or something close to that, God bless them for volunteering for that shift. They didn't mind the endless reports and whining by everyone under the sun. Except me.
And you had some bosses that would make you rotate your shifts no matter what, because they wanted you exposed to other elements of policing. I hated those guys, LOL!!!!
I was lucky and could go 5 years straight on graveyard without being bothered.
Of course graveyard crews are the smallest in numbers too. So working with a good crew of guys was important.
But the bottom line working the late shift is where the action was, but the other shifts like days shift had the bank robbery stuff and the big heists at the local stores that sometimes turned out to be news worthy.
Some of our biggest pursuits and shoot outs happened on day shift or early swing shift. Graveyards had some of the longest pursuits that could go from the high desert to LA or Vegas.
But one of the biggest dangers was the speeds one might travel heading to a call or chasing a bad guy down the street.
When one travels well above the speed limit for one reason or another everyday, one can become complacent and take things for granted that results in disaster for yourself or someone else.
A lot of police cars get crashed every year for a variety of reasons. Up keep on patrol units is one VERY expensive part of a budget. The bean counters hate to see new police cars destroyed because of someone being stupid.
[ July 19, 2011, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 19, 2011, 02:00 PM:
quote:
The anti-LE people here will look for fault.
The pro-LE people will see a line of duty death, understand the reasons of how or why this may have happened, and move on.
49
As to the first statement; it's obvious somebody was at fault, probably two people were at fault?
Now, as to the second, frankly, "understanding the reasons, and moving on" pretty much blows me away.
First of all, I understand the tragedy, a young man in the prime of life, possibly two? But, to write it off as sort of a "shit happens" is irresponsible. Even policemen are supposed to learn from mistakes, you can't just "move on".
This collision was 100% preventable, and they get a lot of training about high speed responding to a hot call, what to do and what not to do. I see overeager testosterone in play.
I'm not condemning those involved, I am looking at the results and with a cold eye, (yeah) finding fault.
gh....lb
edit: And look. The opinion stated above does not constitute a prevalent anti-cop attitude associated with this site.
[ July 19, 2011, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on July 19, 2011, 08:53 PM:
49 said, "It sounds like he was more the hero, and less the cowboy craving action."
Is it not possible an officer was in the wrong and caused his own death or the death of another?
49 said, "The anti-LE people here will look for fault."
I forgot about another officer I know, yes a friend even, we discuss machine guns quite often, they were training and a fellow officer shot him, putting him in a wheelchair for the rest of his life.
Do you not look for fault in a situation like that?
Yes, police work is a dangerous profession but until fault is found in a situation it will happen again.
That's not the reason why we clash here.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on July 19, 2011, 09:08 PM:
On local news today it was mentioned this officer who died was not wearing his seatbelt at the time of the collision.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 19, 2011, 10:55 PM:
That little factoid really clouds the issues. I wonder if that's intentional, so they can hop out a little quicker?
Or, maybe in the excitement, he just forgot?
If you ask me, (while we wait for the helmut cam footage) that appears to be a serious mistake on the part of the decedent.
gh....lb
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on July 20, 2011, 05:04 AM:
"The pro-LE people will see a line of duty death, understand the reasons of how or why this may have happened, and move on."
I hope that what you said in the middle - understand the reasons of how and why this happened - means that you do take the time to assign blame and fault for why this happened so that everyone else can (hopefully) learn from this tragedy so that it doesn't happen again. Yet, it does, so someone isn't paying attention and they'll hurt or kill themselves or someone else because of it. The offcier may be alive today had he taken the time to take all safety precautions. In fact, he would be alive today, had he followed proper driving SOP's, assuming they have them there.
LB,
Your assessemnt of getting out of the car faster is somewhat correct. I was trained to always unbuckle about a half-block prior to arrival on scene and before you come into view of the situation so that you can exit the car if you need to without taking your eyes off the situation you're driving into.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 20, 2011, 10:03 AM:
Figures. I do it myself, in country, when there is a good chance for a crosser, also serious business.
gh....lb
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