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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 15, 2011, 08:54 AM:
Grand View Outdoors just posted a bunch of videos yesterday. Here is a link to Jason Groseclose in the Finals. The others are listed. One of the guys on here asked about them so, here's the link...
Predator Calling Championship Finals
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 15, 2011, 10:05 AM:
Thanks for the Link, that was pretty cool..
Question: How many coyotes do these guys call in every year? must be in the thousands!
do they also prance back and fourth when on stand????
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 15, 2011, 10:19 AM:
Yeah, I bet you liked that!
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 15, 2011, 10:31 AM:
The only one I KNOW calls them in is Al Morris. The others I don't know about.
I'm not a fan of the "strutting". I'd sit down in front of the table and "toot on a whistle" like I was on stand.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 15, 2011, 10:43 AM:
I'm wondering if the judges were under that blue stuff and the contestant was blowing notes directly at each one of them?
gh....lb
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 15, 2011, 12:24 PM:
Cool sounds indeed. Would love to see first hand how these sounds work in my area.
I just hope and I am sure Jason does not move around like that on stand. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Don't get butt hurt anyone just joking.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on June 15, 2011, 01:01 PM:
The moving around thing is irritating, but I have to admit, Ive caught myself doing it, practicing or tuning calls.
They all sounded fantastic, and I love these contests, especially in this era of e-call madness, seems like handcalling is becoming a lost art almost.
One of my favorite sounds is pup distress, they all sounded great, but I was partial to Fry's version of it.
Moody is a machine, loved his bird distress.
Mark
[ June 15, 2011, 01:02 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 15, 2011, 01:07 PM:
You know who is a very excellent caller? Gerald Stewart. I have hunted with him at night and he can do a lot with a Johnny Stewart production call. I would need 5 or 6 including a diaphragm to approximate what he can do with one bite call.
gh....lb
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 15, 2011, 01:28 PM:
Well, if Moody is in fact, "a machine", as you suggest, he should be disqualified. Are you accusing him of not being HUMAN!? I call for further investigation... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I heard a guy say Moody uses a machine. Don't tell anyone you heard it from me. Pass it along...
I heard Moody uses a robotic stand in. Some sorta machine. No wonders he wins. Geez...
[ June 15, 2011, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on June 15, 2011, 01:52 PM:
LB, I believe it.
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on June 15, 2011, 05:03 PM:
thats good stuff!!. something you don't hear much about is a diaphram??. anybody care to explain when/how to use one?? are they hard to master??. benifits??.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 15, 2011, 05:20 PM:
More life like sounding, but very poor volume..
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 15, 2011, 05:30 PM:
Bearhunter, it takes some practice to get it down. I'm not gonna lie and say you'll try it and be able to do howls and pup distress or prey distress right away. It may take you six minutes or six days.
I use a diaphragm made for calling elk to do howls and such. Out of all the different ones available, that are not predator specific, I have found them to make the best howls. I use them sparingly.
The Warden is supposedly a die hard diaphragm caller. I'm sure he'll check in.
[ June 15, 2011, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by jasonpredhunter (Member # 3843) on June 15, 2011, 06:36 PM:
I'm glad they finally put those videos up. To answer a few questions and comments....First, about the walking back and forth. The judges are seated under you under the cloth, so you try to direct the sound towards the judges. If you just stood there in one spot, in a building like that with NO acoustics, it would totally change the sound of the call. I want them to hear the sound as soon as it comes out of my mouth, not after it's reverberated all around a huge expo room. I hear people all the time criticizing the walking around part, but that's part of competition calling, if you wanna win, you do it!
About the diaphragm calls...I called the entire competition with diaphragm calls. Specifically, TC Custom Predator Diaphragms out of arkansas. He makes howlers and distress diaphragms, and I did every sound with one. I just got most of the diaphragms I used the day before the competition, so they don't take a whole lot to learn. I think on all the howls, I was using a 2 reed Hi-Pitch howler if I remember correctly.
Also, I don't kill thousands of coyotes, but I do kill my fair share. It's kind of like the guys that win the turkey contests, then you hear everyone saying, I bet they never kill a turkey or a real turkey doesn't sound that good so why do I need to?? I put down as much fur in my neck of the woods as most, and 95% only use mouthcalls. Maybe we all aren't the top killer's in the country, but this ain't no killing competition, it's a calling competition. They have the killing competition's too.
If you guys ever get the chance, you should come check out one of the calling contests. It's different and very cool to hear each contestants version of sounds and how they use their calls. No two people sound the same and it's great to learn from other people. I entered my first one last year, and enjoy doing it.
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on June 15, 2011, 07:58 PM:
Thanks for that link. I've been looking for those videos.
Hey Jason, some guy named "dickyoung100" hammered you with his comment. He posted it about 4 hours ago. Sounds like one of the PM jerk offs.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 15, 2011, 08:38 PM:
I judged a calling contest a couple years ago. The Professor was entered. He did okay, but he made a strategic mistake. He said he didn't have a couple sounds and did not even make an attempt. I told him that was probably why he didn't win because he got zero points in 50% of the categories.
He seemed surprised that I gave points to anybody that made an attempt at all the sounds but he thought that since he did an extra good job on some sounds, that the judges might award him bonus points.
Bottom line; it helps to have a good grasp of the format.
In that contest, the contestants performed their whole routine one time, they didn't break it up for each sound, but the one that Jason won was probably a better format. But, I wasn't there.
gh....lb
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 16, 2011, 05:34 AM:
Semp, I think dickyoung stalks him on YouTube.
Ernie Wilson sounded good using his calls.
. I'm not sure anyone doing a jackrabbit distress sounded anything different than a cottontail. I would have thought they would have done it "throatier" and slower. But, I've never killed one with my own hands so... maybe they're right and I'm wrong.
Edit: John Paul Moody's jackrabbit was good.
[ June 16, 2011, 08:29 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by jasonpredhunter (Member # 3843) on June 16, 2011, 03:49 PM:
Yeah, the dickyoung guy is pretty much a "wannabe" that's jealous is all I can figure. Pretty much a stalker. I know who it is, it's a ole redneck by the name of (---- ----), and I get a laugh out of it anymore. Some guys I know did an IP address trace and traced it back to him. It's pretty comical I think. I guess he goes by the name "Dick Young" because he looks in the mirror everyday and see's at age 40, his dick still looks like it did when he was 10, therefore young dick. Oh well, I wouldn't be posting on the internet about that though.
He used to be a "big man" and moderator over on PM, but they kicked him off rather abruptly once they figured out what a piece of trash he was. I heard he just got out of jail here recently. He's pretty much a joke in everyone's eye's that know him around here. That kind of stuff just makes me laugh anymore though, I got a life and WAY too much other stuff to worry about....Hate me or not, I see he like's watching my video's ALOT! Must be trying to learn a thing or two, he needs it! LOL
[ June 16, 2011, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: jasonpredhunter ]
Posted by jasonpredhunter (Member # 3843) on June 16, 2011, 03:59 PM:
Hey guys, Here is a link to the 2011 East Coast Predator Showdown up in Pennsylvania at that big outdoor show they have up there. I was lucky enough to win this one. I used all TC diaphragms in this competition too...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry-g0qe__Ak&feature=share
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on June 16, 2011, 04:27 PM:
i'm not real computer savey and could prolly find a link if i tried hard, but would you show us how a diaphram works?? i've never seen how its done
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on June 16, 2011, 04:29 PM:
edied to add:. you" "HEARD" he just gotta outta jail?? tisk-tisk. could be a rumor and you know what that does?? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 16, 2011, 05:01 PM:
I feel sure Jason is talking about Torry Cooke who sells diaphragm predator calls. He makes several custom units and I've heard nothing but good about them. He advertised where most of you never go, but you can do a search for TC Custom Predator Calls and find a link.
A regular turkey diaphragm is good for rabbit distress, pup distress, and howling. If you use a megaphone type extension, it really reaches out there.
Kudos to you Jason on your success.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 16, 2011, 05:53 PM:
quote:
. If you use a megaphone type extension, it really reaches out there.
Farther than a open reed howler??????
I've heard a few being used and was'nt impressed with how loud they are, they do sound good though...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 16, 2011, 06:09 PM:
I don't know why some people claim a diaphragm isn't loud, and most of them have never heard one used properly?
As far as how to use it, well...
you put it in your mouth with the latex part tucked in behind your top front teeth and hold it against the roof of your mouth with your tongue.
For some, it triggers a gag reflex and some others, (like me) it kinda tickles. There is a lot you can do by pursing your lips and by moving your lower lip, and by moving it around a little with your tongue, forward and backwards. It's easy to blow and on the other hand, can require a lot of lung for volume. Definitely helps volume to blow harder and it's surprising the coaxing that can be done by very low pressure.
I don't use a horn as a megaphone, I just cup my hands. I do not see a more versatile type of call in existence? Not to mention the hands free, when shooting or more commonly, while working a light.
gh....lb
Posted by jasonpredhunter (Member # 3843) on June 16, 2011, 06:32 PM:
I agree 100% Leonard. I think the volume issue some guys have is probably operator error. It's all about the tongue pressure you put on the call, the reed thickness of the call, how many reeds, and the position of the diaphragm in your mouth that determines volume. They will get as loud as any call out there if you need them too. If you watch the link of the East Coast Predator Showdown, you can tell the volume I'm getting out of the diaphragms I'm using. I've tried about every call out there at some point and time, and honestly can say hands down, I'll never use another open reed call again. I can't see any situation I would. Like Leonard said, it's hands free, MORE than enough volume for any hunting situation I've ever been in, low volume for coaxing situations, and best of all, it's hands-free. They are what I use 90-95% of the time, the rest of the time I use an e-call because in certain situations, they just work better. My problem is I live in an area where predators have heard EVERY foxpro sound out there and are educated beyond belief. I can take a diaphragm out there and call those spots and have success where otherwise I would have come up short.
Possumal is right, the calls I use are made by Torry Cook out of Arkansas. He owns TC Custom Calls and only makes turkey and predator diaphragms. Some think that the turkey and predator diaphragms are the same, but Torry does his totally different. The types of latex, the cuts and the stretches are totally different. I can make predator sounds with a turkey call, but nowhere close to what I can with one voiced specifically for predators. We test calls continuosly looking for the right cuts for certain sounds, and it takes time but Torry has a line of calls out now that are hard to beat. I'm not sure how you're advertising products policy works, because I'm not in any way wanting or trying to do that or infringe on anything, but if any of ya'll are interested I could get you his number if that's ok with Leonard.
Bearhunter, as far as how it works, Leonard pretty much sum's it up. As to a demonstration, here's a link of what they sound like after following Leonard's instructions as posted before:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ry-g0qe__Ak&feature=share
[ June 16, 2011, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: jasonpredhunter ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 16, 2011, 07:19 PM:
quote:
I don't know why some people claim a diaphragm isn't loud, and most of them have never heard one used properly?
Well if thats the case I hope more callers switch over to useing them.. More coyotes for me..
Call makers that make short barrel calls always claim there call is super loud.. Why is that???
Like I said I've heard them before and I'm not buying it.. One of the callers that I heard use one goes by the name unknown, I think he is famous now , don't hear much about him...
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 16, 2011, 07:28 PM:
Bearhunter, here's a video on elk bugling. Very similar and should give you an idea on how to use one.
Diaphragm instruction
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 16, 2011, 07:52 PM:
I don't have any restrictions on links for products that our membership would be interested in, as long as it's hunting related or firearm related, stuff like that. We had a jerk last week that posted a porn link and that got him suspended. Other than that, I am pretty liberal. As long as it has some legit interest, you can post anything you want.
I'm not real fussy about reeds, I can make just about any of them work, in a pinch.
gh....lb
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 16, 2011, 07:59 PM:
Tim, you don't have to "buy" it. I could care less. I'm just trying to correct some bad info and if you choose not to believe me, you can kiss my ass.
gh....lb
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 16, 2011, 08:35 PM:
Sorry leonard, just saying is all..
I already have a few of them I won in a contest so I'm not looking to buy any..
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 16, 2011, 08:48 PM:
Let's just say that you don't know enough about the subject to be entitled to an opinion.
gh.lb
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on June 17, 2011, 02:54 AM:
thanks Jason/Smithers. looks like i got some learning to do. that elk guy was fabulous. after i get learned up, i'm gonna hit Tims area and clean up on the W/T educated dogs ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on June 17, 2011, 08:07 AM:
I never put the diaphragm behind my teeth.The line that someone wrote tucked in behind your front teeth has me a bit lost.But for me it's the roof of the mouth but I guess that's still be hind the teeth.The placement of the diaphragm might be more like to each his on.Or each person might find there on sweet spot as far as placement of the diaphragm go's.
The first person I ever saw and heard use a diaphragm is a guy by the name of Bill Bynum on an old Knight and Hale VHS tape.
He would make his rabbit sounds by saying the word we or we- weeee- weeeeeee. Not unlike saying chick chick chick to get a turkey sound.
I get my howl by saying hook-hook who wheeeeee.
Just a day or two ago as had a mind of laying down some new howls with some of my diaphragms. But ended up recording my nine year old gran son in stead.Coby ended up with two of my calls and a diaphragm's.He's been trying like heck to make some sounds. I told him to say words to get his sounds,so he just tries to talk,so it's not easy to explain that part I guess.
There are times I say words and other times I just make the sounds.
I can make a cat sound,howls rabbit,hurt pup,yips and howls or group howl.
Trust me a diaphragm is more than loud enough,or at least the coyotes will here it.
I my self do not use a horn,just never thought of it. I do use my hand in front of my mouth same as a hand call.
If there is someone out there that needs more volume just make some recordings then clean or fix them up and load them on to your e-caller.
As far as tips far the care of a diaphragm I like to keep a cup of water close by to rise them if I'm here at the house.Plus I like to rinse them and let them dry be fore I put them away.I try not to leave them in the truck or even get to hot.In other words if a guy thinks he can just toss a diaphragm up on the dashboard of his truck and let it rattle around there all summer. And then come fall use it for turkey season it won't happen.
I called my first coyote with a diaphragm.I did not kill it my rifle was in the truck I was just seeing if any thing would howl back is all.That was be for I knew coyotes would come into a lone howl.
Smithers thanks for getting this topic going.
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on June 17, 2011, 08:57 AM:
my opinion is this, only a couple guys there I think sounded good enough to be on the stage.
some of the callers there I don't think would have even been in the running if there were more contestants .
they all sounded good, but I also think they were 100 out classes by the other's
I do congratulate them for doing the contest but they need some work on there calling before they run with the likes of guys sounding like Jason.
but they did all put out the afford and congrats to them for that
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 17, 2011, 09:00 AM:
I know that Cayotaytalker, Mr. Cronk and myself like to record sounds and mess with them. I have probably 1000 different sounds on my computer that I have recorded, cleaned and mutated. Whether they are with hand calls, diaphragm's or voice, it's fun to make the sounds and then see what you can do with 'em using computer programs.
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on June 17, 2011, 09:38 AM:
Jason has some skill's for sure.How ever I had to listen hard to Jason because of the room they were in.There are a few guys out there that kick ass.This spelling might be wrong but Crinner is one E.Wilson and like him or not Rich Higgins and his son.
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on June 17, 2011, 11:41 AM:
I hate to pimp anything Primos, but their diaphragm's with the little plastic dome are pretty awesome. It is a lot easier to get a consistent spot for the call to sit in your mouth, it resists bending out of shape, and it is loud.
If diaphragm's weren't loud than elk hunters wouldn't use them as a locator.
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on June 17, 2011, 12:52 PM:
I have three primos calls. The hot dog howler which is the one that hangs around my neck.the kiyi call it's not so bad. And the cat nip it's makes a good rabbit.There are some guys that don't care for Randy Anderson or for Primos calls not sure why,and don't really give one.
I guess there OK for an off the shelf product.
I never have been much of a leg humper my self,But will toss a name out here and there.
I only have three custom made calls,one howler that came from the north west,one of my home made ones and one that works very well That I got from NV Walt.The NV Walt call makes one of the best rabbit sounds I have ever made with a hand call.I used that call to make my self a few recordings to use on my e-caller. They sound very life like.That is one of the calls that hangs around my neck.
I guess I could just say heres what I take with me. Hotdog howler, NV Walt hand call,primos cat nip bite'er.And sometimes I ditch the cat nip for a Sceery bite'er.
How ever I do like to here what brands or custom calls you other guys use.
I think almost any diaphragm can work. But of course some have got to be better than others.
The ones from Bass Pro Shop,the redhead pack of the red ones. They bill them as for turkeys.I got a shit load from one of the camp outs by Dutch Boy they were a bit of a hit and miss. But still some were good enough.
By far the best one to date that I have used is the Mini Mag it's green and has a real good all around pitch. It's made by Dutch Boy also. The Mini Mag will make some nice howls and a very good rabbit as well.
Not sure if you can put a diaphragm in upside down or not.I my self put them in make a few sounds and turn it over and make a few more sounds.And then pick a side if any of the my diaphragms strat to curve to the shape of the roof of my mouth well than good.
One more tip I have is for any one that thinks there to big or to odd to have in your mouth, just cut them down a little.
Do I think they were ment to replace a good hand call or howler no I do not. But they have there place.
Hey Jason if you have any tips I would like to hear them.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on June 17, 2011, 03:11 PM:
I agree on the NV Walt call, I have one he sent me years ago and it is one of, if not the, best sounding closed reeds Ive ever had.
Mark
[ June 17, 2011, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on June 17, 2011, 04:45 PM:
Yep, Steve C uses one. He sounds real good to my ears. I know he has called and killed coyotes using it, which I think is the point. More so than appeasing a panel of judges.(no offence Jason)
quote:
I'm not buying it.. One of the callers that I heard use one goes by the name unknown, I think he is famous now , don't hear much about him...
True Tim, he does not share the same internet notoriety you do!
Maintain
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 17, 2011, 05:55 PM:
Don't know why that "unknown" comment whizzed right over my head and I coined the term!
As I have said a gazillion times before, anybody, a rank amateur can call a coyote with a handcall. Hard to believe, but true.
No offense to Jason either, okay? But, sounding real good to human judges is not the purpose. It's fun and all that, but will a calling champion call a lot more coyotes than a little kid that just honks on it without any technique? Probably.
gh....lb
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on June 17, 2011, 08:31 PM:
To be a world class caller and be able to make the sound as realistic as some do you need to have a grasp on the critter your attempting to sound like.
To kill the critter in a hunting scenario you need also have a grasp on the sounds that will trick them into making a mistake that puts them in the cross hairs.
So yea a rank amateur can call a coyote with a hand call. but consistently I think not.
it may be done behind the locked gate of a privet ranch or in coyote rich country but, to be consistent in killing predators in most of the country you will need your calling to be top notch. along with all the other skills need to consistently kill predators were most cant.
In my opinion anyway .
PS
there is more then enough room in anyone of my camps in the northeast for anyone to come and show me different
[ June 17, 2011, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 17, 2011, 09:52 PM:
I seem to recall, that Ed Sceery said in his video that howling with his megaphone and a diaphram call sounded better to human ears.
But using the open reed call and megaphone got more results from the coyotes themselves.
I don't have a VHS machine to check if that is right, anyone care to comment?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 17, 2011, 10:55 PM:
When we are talking coyotes, it is very difficult to deal in absolutes.
Now, I certainly agree with what big George said, but I have seen a rank amateur call a coyote with a handcall by just honking on it like a blithering idiot. If the planets are aligned properly, calling a dumb coyote is fairly easy.
gh....lb
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 17, 2011, 11:15 PM:
Tom, are talking about Ed's howling for coyotes, video ? I have it, and still have a VHS player.
I'll try and check it out if you would like ?
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on June 18, 2011, 06:26 AM:
Well, I kinda disagree with George. Maybe its his use of "World Class". A for instance; based on Georges description of world class, the top five callers in these bigger contests will consistantly call in and kill more coyotes than the other callers? Has anyone heard Ed Wimberly use his hand calls? The sounds are good, but simplistic....no fancy crap. He calls and kills lots of coyotes using mostly hand calls(he does have a new e caller though). I mean seriously, world class status is being determined by human ears judging a sound intended for canine ears. Those canine ears will be hearing at levels much more sensitive than any humans, and those sounds will be triggering inate responses we can only try to understand. So, until a caller on stage drives a judge to run up on stage and hump his leg, rip out his throat, or cock his leg on the podium and do a series of kick scratches; its just a 'musical instrument' contest like 3toes said.
Maintain
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 18, 2011, 06:43 AM:
CrossJ, I hope the cameras are rolling when the leg humping begins. They can shut down when the judge decides to drop a double on stage from the excitement...
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on June 18, 2011, 07:06 AM:
Hey guys It turns out I do not use any diaphrams by Dutch Boy. The diaphrams I do have were made by Quaker Boy.
Dutch Boy is a brand of paint! I guess you guys knew what I meant.
for the ones that did not know can stop looking for dutch Boy Calling gear.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 18, 2011, 07:21 AM:
Dave, I think that's the one. I got it with a howler he was selling as a package deal years ago.
I'm almost certain he said everyone thought the diaphram call sounded better, especially up close but the coyotes answered the open reed better, or from off in a distance the open reed sounded better.
I don't have the video (or the howler) now to check for sure.
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on June 18, 2011, 08:00 AM:
I use the Sceery AP-6.I think it's just like having three calls with you just in one call.
I have never done it in the field,but I can howl with one. And have made my on recording of the howl. I have not ever put it to the test.I guess it would work just fine,it's a lone howl but soft and a bit faint.With out the sharp edge or harsh like most recorded howls.
I guess my point is there is just so much you can do with hand calls.
And for you guys that have some old VHS tapes around that are good ones you might want to convert them over to disc. And for any old cassette tapes you have on hand convert them as well.because there will be a time when you cant buy them even off the net.
If you have room keep them indoors,not in some out building.
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on June 18, 2011, 10:07 AM:
I went to the first predator expo they had and entered the contest. It was fun and I would probably do it again if it was close to me. But I would say it’s not a true test of somebody’s ability to call in a coyote it’s strictly a test of who can accurately sound the best. For example I used a latex reed howler because in a building this sounds the best to the human ear. In the field I use my voice because this gives the best response but inside it sounds like crap.
Jeremy Gugelmeyer
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 18, 2011, 11:39 AM:
Yeah, but were the doors open? There may have been a whole pack circling the building?
Voice howling is extremely difficult for me to do. I get hoarse right away. Some people like Huber are unbelievable, and once you try it and can't do it, you can appreciate it even more.
I watched a contest once where the winner used a Dan Thompson howler and (to my ears) sounded very ordinary. And, simple. That day, the judges thought it was the most realistic.
I do think that is our one Ace in the hole. If the coyotes ever become "howl" shy, we'ze screwed.
gh....lb
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 18, 2011, 12:17 PM:
I'm sure all of us try and sound as realistic as possible, no one I know strives for mediocrity. But, if sounding "real" was the only thing that brought them in, we'd all be walking around with rabbits in our pockets and coyotes on leashes.
Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on June 19, 2011, 05:04 AM:
I was one of the judges for the calling event and I am glad someone put together these video clips. The video clips are the first time I got to see who was who while calling. Like Jason said the moving back and forth on stage is for the judges to all hear the same sound from the same directions.
I was impressed by some of the sounds and less than impressed with others. I was impressed enough with Jason’s cat sound I went and bought a TC diaphragm call to try. The impression being more of a cat sound with no hands than any other factor.
In my case setups are the most important thing in coyote hunting and sounds are 3rd, as far as a contest caller being the best coyote caller, they have no connection in my book. I still have better success with an open reed all around while coyote hunting but you want see many of those winning sound contest this days. I believe as time passes we will see 95% or more of the contest callers using diaphragm calls and we are almost there now.
Wish there had been more contestants but the ones that made it done a good job and I felt privileged to have been a part of it and look forward to seeing these guys’s compete next year.
Edited to add an old open reed calling demo I did. I use these sounds to kill coyotes and it works very well for me here but wont win any calling contest that is for sure.
Calliong demo
[ June 19, 2011, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: CCP ]
Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on June 19, 2011, 06:38 AM:
quote:
Yeah, but were the doors open? There may have been a whole pack circling the building?
Actually, there were coyotes outside in the parking lot at the KC Expo. I think Reeves or Nistetter posted pics of one at the hotel, too!
Nikonut
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 19, 2011, 10:42 AM:
Yeah, sure! Let me think? Reeves, I think he favors Black Velvet, and Uncle Jay will help him drink it without too much prompting.
By Saturday morning, I'd be surprised if they had not seen a couple packs?
gh....lb
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 19, 2011, 11:47 AM:
Like a lot of you, I saw the pics of Randy with that coyote, and that's something because that Convention Center was pretty well centrally located in a commercial area of Overland Park with lots of urban stuff around. I didn't get there until Saturday morning to hear about it, and recall laughing when a group of military people from here locally were overheard midweek after the Convention complaining about the din or God-awful noises that kept them up all night Saturday while at the same hotel on a couple's retreat. Turns out that was Reeves and Nistetter and a bevy of others in the parking lot until Oh-God-thirty in the a.m.. Those guys are damned lucky the OPPD didn't send in the SWAT Team with guns blazing to quell the riot. Bunch o' seedy lookin' sumbitches if there ever were such a bunch. LOL
As far as diaphragms go, although I've tried them, I've just never found a comfort level with them that suited me. They do sound good because, IMO, they most closely approximate the structure of a coyote's anatomy - the latex reeds are very similar to the coyote's vocal cords in build and thickness and, of course, you're using the shape of your mouth and lips and the placement of your tongue to manipulate the sound. But, for the diaphragm challenged amongst us, I submit the ELK Power Howler which is nothing more than a holder for the latex band reed. The sound produced is consistent with a diaphragm's sound without all the worry about aspirating or choking on the call in the heat of the moment.
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on June 19, 2011, 01:47 PM:
My how time flies and how actuality can be twisted with that flying time.
quote:
Like a lot of you, I saw the pics of Randy with that coyote, and that's something because that Convention Center was pretty well centrally located in a commercial area of Overland Park with lots of urban stuff around. I didn't get there until Saturday morning to hear about it, and recall laughing when a group of military people from here locally were overheard midweek after the Convention complaining about the din or God-awful noises that kept them up all night Saturday while at the same hotel on a couple's retreat. Turns out that was Reeves and Nistetter and a bevy of others in the parking lot until Oh-God-thirty in the a.m.. Those guys are damned lucky the OPPD didn't send in the SWAT Team with guns blazing to quell the riot. Bunch o' seedy lookin' sumbitches if there ever were such a bunch. LOL
Lance, about the only part of this entire comment that is correct is the part where Nistetter and I were participants.
quote:
Yeah, sure! Let me think? Reeves, I think he favors Black Velvet, and Uncle Jay will help him drink it without too much prompting.
By Saturday morning, I'd be surprised if they had not seen a couple packs? [Smile]
Et tu brute
Black Velvet? what is that?
Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on June 19, 2011, 02:39 PM:
What's funny about that "centrally located, commercial area"...is, they've had an ongoing problem with coyotes.
I recall something like 11 pets had been taken around there, right before that convention.
...and what I heard was...Randy actually got the coyote to drink Black Velvet...whatever that is...
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 19, 2011, 03:26 PM:
Black Velvet if you please. http://youtu.be/a5E2yx2cRlc
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 19, 2011, 11:52 PM:
I'm only an occasional whiskey drinker, I probably got the brand wrong? What ever it is, he has a brand that he favors and I have helped him drink it, a time or two. If not Black Velvet, maybe it's Jack Daniels? Royal Crown? That's it, I'm out of guesses?
gh....lb
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on June 20, 2011, 03:19 AM:
I was thinking of the black velvet posters of the 60's, had me confused.
The whiskey I prefer is Old Charter 101. I have shared it with some close friends over a campfire, you included.
I have never had the pleasure of drinking with Uncle Jay, but the more I think about it the more I like Lance's version of the events above. Sure sounds more exciting than what really happened.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 20, 2011, 05:23 AM:
Well, Randy, that's the story I got, along with the picture of you crouched down with that coyote leaning into you from less than what is the normal approach range. The military guys were neighbors of mine at the time and that happened Saturday night late after everyone left Hooters and I know that happened because I saw the origins of that group in the parking lot and I brought that up the week following and several different people took credit for that "disturbance". The only part I saw as patently false was my comment about the OPPD's SWAT Team, so beyond that.....
Either way, it was a fun weekend.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on June 20, 2011, 07:08 AM:
Yall should have made it to our parking lot. We had Miss Happy Feet sing for us and the Borlens about run everybody over while smokin tires.
Good times at the first one.
Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on June 20, 2011, 02:36 PM:
Randy Black, Berry and his wife, and I had rooms at the Convention Center motel. We had gone to dinner and met the Dillons and Jerry Blair. After dinner and way before Oh God thirty in the AM we were taking Jay back to his motel. We were following the Dillons and Blair. As we were passing a drainage and at the edge of a motel parking lot with no vehicles this young bat eared coyote ran across the road and into the empty parking lot. Berry stopped the vehicle and he and Jay pulled out their pocket cameras and were taking pictures.
The coyote was headed to a wooded area towards the back, Jay, Berry and I walked across the lot, I dropped down on one knee and began to lipsqueak. The coyote turned and headed back. Jay snapped this picture. You can see the lights of Berry's vehicle directly over the coyote and behind me. parked on the road shoulder.
I continued to lipsqueak and the coyote circled to my right. came up and sniffed my fingers. Berry snapped this picture.
The coyote lost interest and trotted off into the woods behind the lot. We got back in Berry's vehicle and took Jay to his motel on the other side of this lot. We got there as the Dillons were unloading Blair at the door. Said our good nights and went back to our motel at the convention center.
I had a restless night, concerned that I had desensitized an urban coyote and spent the next week reading the papers awaiting the story of a kid being dragged off and eaten by this coyote.
Edit to add: I don't remember if this was thursday or Friday night, but I went to Hooter's the next night?
I didn't have a camera the night we saw the coyote. I did the night I went to Hooter's.
[ June 20, 2011, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: RagnCajn ]
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 20, 2011, 03:55 PM:
There were several of us hiding in the dark trying to call that coyote but Randy's lips squeaks won out.
The dog finally left and we kept calling.
It Disappeared into a subdivision and then it came running back to an open drainage area with something in its mouth.
These photos were taken from 2 cameras.
Continued...
Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 20, 2011, 03:56 PM:
I missed getting the real close picture.
I thought Randy was going to reach out and pet it.
If Randy would have had some food, I think he could have.
Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on June 20, 2011, 05:30 PM:
quote:
I kinda disagree with George. Maybe its his use of "World Class". A for instance; based on Georges description of world class, the top five callers in these bigger contests will consistantly call in and kill more coyotes than the other callers?
Crossj
when did i say this?
quote:
the top five callers in these bigger contests will consistantly call in and kill more coyotes than the other callers?
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
read it again
To be a world class caller and be able to make the sound as realistic as some do you need to have a grasp on the critter your attempting to sound like.
To kill the critter in a hunting scenario you need also have a grasp on the sounds that will trick them into making a mistake that puts them in the cross hairs.
So yea a rank amateur can call a coyote with a hand call. but consistently I think not.
it may be done behind the locked gate of a privet ranch or in coyote rich country but, to be consistent in killing predators in most of the country you will need your calling to be top notch. along with all the other skills need to consistently kill predators were most cant.
In my opinion anyway .
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on June 21, 2011, 02:25 AM:
Damn George!
Just when everyone was getting all friendly and smiling about calling coyotes at the KC Expo...
Funny how we can sometimes be close as a group and then so far from each other when it comes to agreeing on the simple shit. By the time the next expo came around everyone was fighting and calling old friends enemies. Sad indeed...
Nikonut
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on June 21, 2011, 05:51 AM:
Good point, Niko.
Especially when one considers there is very little, if any, money involved. I think these things revolve around ego more than anything else.
In the grand scheme of things, none of it much matters. But, having said that, I still enjoy a good fight whether I'm in it or watching from the sidelines.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 21, 2011, 06:35 AM:
The main reason I started calling A LOT and trying to sound "as real as possible", is because I started off hunting using a bow only. I figured sounding "real" would put them in my lap when everything else was perfect.
Sitting up in a tree with a bow and sounding good works great. Sitting on the ground and sounding real doesn't produce as much.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 21, 2011, 06:48 AM:
I suppose that in the big scheme of things, we should all just accept that we won't agree on everything and maybe focus more on those areas where we do find some semblance of commonality. Like our common conern that Cronk not be flooded out, or our mutual interest in being a part of these various websites. It was once said, when an elderly couple who'd been married for many, many years and who were asked what their secret was, that the old woman's reply was, "If we agreed about everything, one of us would be unnecessary." As ideological as things like the Expo and the NPHA might be, they won't trump human nature and the desire to be individuals who selfishly and strongly stand on what each of us sees as our own high ground. There many things that I may not agree with you on, but I avoid those issues unless and until I'm either looking for a fight, or looking to understand the issue from a different angle.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on June 21, 2011, 06:52 AM:
George..... I didn't say you 'said' that. What I said was.... "based on Georges description".
This very sentence fragment takes into context the implications of your statement.....not litteral translation.
So, at your request George, I read it again.
quote:
To be a world class caller and be able to make the sound as realistic as some do you need to have a grasp on the critter your attempting to sound like.
OK....a dying jackrabbit must sound like a dying jackrabbit!?!? So, how/why does that perfect replication of a dying jackrabbit work in an area that has no jackrabbits?
quote:
To kill the critter in a hunting scenario you need also have a grasp on the sounds that will trick them into making a mistake that puts them in the cross hairs.
Ok, if I substitute your words 'trick them into making a mistake' with my words 'triggering inate responces', we have said much the same thing.
So, if you read my comment again, in particular the last two sentences; you will see why I made the comment regarding leg humping, kick scratching and throat ripping. The individual human ear perseaves and translates those sounds differantly in the brain(as apposed to coyotes/other predators). In other words, five different individual judges, would more than likely produce different results in the winners circle. Since the desired results of a distress call is to trigger a responce from a predator, human judges make these contests nothing more than 'musical instrument' contests.
[ June 21, 2011, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: CrossJ ]
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 21, 2011, 07:03 AM:
I just watched the new Verminators video. Anyone who's watched them knows how craaazzzzeeeee Mr. Rick blows that 'tweety' call and can see how successful it is on stand.
Far as I know, that call doesn't sound remotely close to ANY animal, yet it calls in coyotes & cats like a magnet for those guys...
Not trying to take anything away from competition callers, as I admire their skill & dedication to reproducing 'lifelike' sounds. I know I can't call like that!!!
However, I think it's safe to say that illiciting the response & approach from a predator has much more to do with 'tripping a trigger' than it does with specifically mimicking a animal's distress sound.
I like to draw parallels between coyote hunting & big game fishing, since I'm after a predator in both in both instances.
I can fool a marlin or tuna to attack/eat a foot long piece of plastic because it stimulates a predatory response. Without drawing any conclusion regarding the intellect of either critter, I believe the same holds true for calling coyotes. They perceive something in distress and are hardwired as predators & opportunists to investigate...
Again, no disrespect intended to the competition callers. What you guys do to emulate 'real' sounds is very impressive!
edit: typing as CrossJ was!
[ June 21, 2011, 07:09 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on June 21, 2011, 07:16 AM:
Lance, two things about your post. The first quote I find very interesting
quote:
"If we agreed about everything, one of us would be unnecessary."
The second,
quote:
... looking for a fight, or looking to understand the issue from a different angle.
is very descriptive of what takes place on these boards(particularly this one). Although, I think alot of times, people mistake 'fight' for what is really debate. I think most of the regulars around these boards are independant, hard headed, competative individuals who like to defend their positions or 'dare' someone to try to change their mind. I personally like to see that characteristic in people, especially in this era of sheeple. The boards with controversy and dust ups are the most visited. We have all seen the boards with two pages of 'atta boys' 'good job' and '+1'; very boring and offer little insight in my opinion.
Maintain
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 21, 2011, 08:32 AM:
"We have all seen the boards with two pages of 'atta boys' 'good job' and '+1'; very boring and offer little insight in my opinion."
+1
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 21, 2011, 08:44 AM:
No swearing, no digging, no fighting, no sexual innuendo, no backstabbing, no threats of bodily harm, equals a board with 3 posts a week.
Great posts Cross J, Tom and Cdoo. You guys are geniuseserest. You all have the wisdom of the wise. (You can wipe off your legs, now)
Tom you get a free leg hump for jumping on the obvious first.
[ June 21, 2011, 08:45 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on June 21, 2011, 09:29 AM:
"Sheeple" is a great term
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on June 21, 2011, 10:00 AM:
I've noticed in the different predator hunting sites I frequent, there are always the same like minded individuals, with the same intellect talking to each other, the rest of them reading it in wonderment. These guys are on call and immediately upon reading a question from the peanut gallery, they hit the google search button in an effort to bolster their standing in the know-it-all community. They can draw out the description of the word shit into a twelve chapter novel.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 21, 2011, 10:39 AM:
The roar of the masses could be farts. I.e. You're ne'er as good as YOU think you are.
This is the church and this is the steeple. Turn it around and here's all the sheeple...
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on June 21, 2011, 10:46 AM:
quote:
They can draw out the description of the word shit into a twelve chapter novel.
Pretty sure I found my new signature line with this one.
I have a question. Lookig at the Hooters photo, is it required that I wear a camo hat if I ever go to one of these expos?
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 21, 2011, 10:48 AM:
I think alot of guys hang out at certain boards of their choice, because they feel a comfort zone. Knowing they will never be challenged on their posts.
They realize those who do challenge won't be around long, or a mod will bail them out. JMO of course..(Edit) I'm not talking about this board
The fact is none of us are ever 100% right 100% of the time.
(Edit) again. Maybe a better way to put that is, if everyone agree's with everything you say, It might be prudent to consider the crowd you run with.
[ June 21, 2011, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on June 21, 2011, 11:07 AM:
I wonder what it is about these boards that keep us hanging around? I guess it's a bit like a club or a fellow ship. For the most part we all tend to be on the same political page.
Most of the guys that hang around here are smart and seam to still have a good deal of independent thought.
For the most part I laugh my ass off when I read alot of the material on this site.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 21, 2011, 12:31 PM:
+1
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 21, 2011, 12:31 PM:
atta boy!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 21, 2011, 12:32 PM:
what he said....
edit: ditto
[ June 21, 2011, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on June 21, 2011, 12:51 PM:
quote:
These guys are on call and immediately upon reading a question from the peanut gallery, they hit the google search button in an effort to bolster their standing in the know-it-all community.
Isn't that why they invented Google to begin with?
Google is trading at almost $500 a share so someone likes it. (I had to Google that stock quote)
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 21, 2011, 01:01 PM:
Google:
Come on, you do it.
You love to do it.
We all do it.
You do it...
I do it, I love to do it.
I just did it and I'm ready to do it again, don't tell me you don't do it!
~Mel Brooks (googled it)
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 21, 2011, 01:14 PM:
I can't google anymore, my computer switched to bing. It sucks, I'm not near as smart as I was with google.
Oh and Good Job Leonard!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 21, 2011, 01:14 PM:
Dan, (the man) don't need no stinkin' GOOGLE!
Furthermore, he is a permanent card carrying member of the Peanut Gallery. BTW, I hear he is quiet well off?
gh....lb
edit: TY
[ June 21, 2011, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on June 21, 2011, 01:43 PM:
I tried Googling(is that a word?) Dan's financial records and all I can find is...
"rich beyond comprehension, compasionate, nurturing, and don't mess with Dan!", signed, "Pussgut".
Maybe I need to narrow my search terms?
Nikonut
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 21, 2011, 01:58 PM:
Howad Hill called the coyote the smartest animal he's ever encountered. He said that many believe the turkey is smarter.
Hunting the Hard Way by Howard Hill
Google it!!
Howard Hill "the King of Archery"
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on June 21, 2011, 02:23 PM:
quote:
+1
quote:
atta boy!
quote:
ditto
Bah bah bah!
Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on June 21, 2011, 02:39 PM:
Best memories of the KC Expo...
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Edit: That's all it was... a memory!
[ June 21, 2011, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on June 21, 2011, 03:24 PM:
"Furthermore, he is a permanent card carrying member of the Peanut Gallery."
Yep, I'm member number one and you are two.
[ June 21, 2011, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Dan Carey ]
Posted by jasonpredhunter (Member # 3843) on January 31, 2012, 07:54 PM:
I hate to re-hash such an old thread, but seeing as how my internet time is pretty limited due to hunting and work, I thought I'd let ya know we finally got our site up.
If you guys want, you can go check out our website at www.custompredatorcall.com
We have a products page, photo gallery, video's, etc...I know it's an amateur website, but that's all we are.
Also, our page will be updated frequently so I hope ya check it out....
Again, I know it's been a while but, I guess better late than never...
www.custompredatorcall.com
[ February 01, 2012, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: jasonpredhunter ]
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on January 31, 2012, 09:01 PM:
quote:
Cross J that think I'm only a stage caller and could never call in a coyote
Jason, I went back and read the whole thread again. Can't find were I associated you with being nothing more than a stage caller, let alone not being able to call in a coyote. My comments were on calling contests being judged by human ears with the intent on calling animals....period.
Hope you're having a good year.
Maintain
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on January 31, 2012, 09:07 PM:
Nice bunch of fox. You did good..
Not many coyotes for a coyote calling champ.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 31, 2012, 09:27 PM:
Like Geordie, I reread the whole thread and I too cannot see that a statement was made that disparages stage callers? Unless it was taken out of context, I don't think anybody bad mouthed those that win contests, or suggested that they probably could not call real coyotes.
Good hunting. LB
edit: whatever happened to ol' Dan, (the man) Since he's been gone the spelin has gone to $hit around here.
[ January 31, 2012, 09:30 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on February 02, 2012, 07:01 PM:
I'm being intimidated reading about you guys using diaphragm calls. I tried them several times and all I do is spit on whatever is in front of me. The first time I tried, I spit all over my dash. When I got home, I got a rag and some Windex and ended up with a clean dash.
I talked to a dentist and he confirmed that there are variations in the roof of everyone’s mouth.
I personally believe in the Wal-Mart philosophy of varmint calling: the three most important factors are location, location, location. Four is stand setup and fifth is calling. I use to hunt with a guy that claimed you needed to visualize the blood coming off the end of the call. I prefer to see the coyote come running in salivating.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 02, 2012, 07:26 PM:
If it makes you feel any better, I can't whistle with my fingers, total mystery how it's done?
As far as using the diaphragm, I think you just have to play around with it. Trust me, it's not that hard to do. How some people trigger the gag reflex with a diaphragm, I'm stumped? The idea is not to swallow it, you want it pushed up against the back of your upper front teeth. Hold it there with the back portion of your tongue.
Good hunting. LB
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