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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 10, 2011, 05:32 AM:
Leonard and bearhunter were discussing tourneys and I had a question or two. Having never hunted one I wondered what the general rules could be. I know they would be specific to whoever hold the event but in general...
Do they skin the animals out to make sure there are no marks on the hides from snares or check them out in any way to kinda keep the hunters honest? This is for smaller tournaments and for larger ones. The larger ones, I would presume, have more riding on them so the checks would be more in-depth.
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on June 10, 2011, 06:03 AM:
if an animal is in question than yes, they may skin it. there are quite a few ways to tell if an animal was taken illegally (rules). i'm heading out the door in a coupla minutes to hunt coyotes for the weekend so gotta go now. i'll chime in when i get back. hopefully others will also.
Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on June 10, 2011, 06:42 AM:
Usually the larger contests have a fur buyer lined up. No checks are sent out until word from the fur buyer come back ok. I think they just do a quick look at the unusable coyotes and then make note if anythings fishy when they skin the rest. They look for snare marks, trauma from being run over etc.
A lot of the smaller ones are just on the honor system. You would have to be a low life piece of shit to cheat 20-30 local guys just out to have a good time.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 10, 2011, 08:05 AM:
As far as the Kansas Predator Challenge goes, we do a number of things. First, when you pull up at check in, the coyotes are to be tagged with kill blocks in the order killed and the date and time killed recorded on a check sheet that is provided to the check-in judges. We line them up on tables and temperature probe them with digital probes in the glutes at one hip or the other. Those temps are then recorded on the check in sheet alongside the entry for that coyote. The body temp of the coyotes will begin to produce a pattern of sorts, with all coyotes taken from 8-9 am, for instance, on the second day producing the same general temperature. If we find one that is way off the mark, we denote it and come back to it later so as not to slow check in.
When the coyotes are being checked in and 2-3 times more after they're all laid out, myself, my partner, and sometimes at least one other person go through them and look for evidence of foot traps, snares, dog kill tears, road rash and the like - coyotes that were taken by any means other than those allowed in the hunt. Those, if any, are denoted as well for review after all check in is completed.
At that point, all the judges get together and go back to any and all coyotes that raised flags and share their thoughts on what we're looking at. If it is decided that there might be a problem, we go find the guys on that team, separate them and ask them to explain what we're seeing, then compare what they said.
We have a furbuyer that comes to the hunt. The kill blocks are left on the coyotes until they are skinned. The buyer is instructed what to look for and he reports back to us after all the coyotes are skinned as to any discrepancies, which are then followed up on and investigated.
If you're in the money winning level - say top 15 teams, we randomly pull seven different winning teams, separate the members into two groups, and each group submits to the same series of questions, usually 10-15 questions. These questions are usually obscure and delve deeply into what happened on the stand. For instance, question number two might be, "On coyote number 5, were you sitting on your partner's left or right, and how far apart were you?" 5b might be "who was doing the calling?" 5c might be "how far was the coyote from the shooter when the kill shot was made?" You learn that, on every kill, you take notes as to as much detail as you can because you will be asked to recall those details. When you only kill a coyote or two during the weekend, that's no biggy, but when you do like Patterson did and kill double digits, note cards are a good idea and they are allowed.
The only thing we cannot police, as we see it, is the guy who shoots one he sees standing out in a field and which was not called.
To their credit, the KPC has been going for five years and we've fielded an average 95 two-man teams each year, with the past two year having two hunts rather than one. By my best guess, we've put about 1200 coyote hunters in the field in that time under competition pressure and only know of one instance where we found cheating to have occurred.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 10, 2011, 08:19 AM:
Cdog, that's pretty in-depth ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Especially the questions about stands and distance. That's good info. Thanks for the post.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 10, 2011, 01:06 PM:
You just have to keep details straight about the stand to prove that you and your partner were there together and saw the same thing. Two different stories means we have cheaters, and we try to pick the details that will be the least likely for cheaters to collaberate on. Hell, we might ask if coyote number 6 was taken with a rifle or shotgun, who shot, distance? Howe far were yuou from the truck, which direction were you looking when you shot, what color are your partner's socks, and how many pee stops did you have to take on Saturday? Stuff like that.
[ June 10, 2011, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 01:27 PM:
We never did those type of inquiries, unless something looked suspicious. Believe me, the participants are the best detectives.
You have to remember that all of our hunts were events sanctioned by the CSVCA and all participants must be club members. There was very little chance of a ringer getting in and winning everything.
In fact, newcomers rarely faired well. A team had to be around a couple seasons before they learned the ropes.
One thing. Lance said something about a coyote standing in a field. This is something that is unenforceable and if it happens, since you cannot do anything about it, the rules state an animal must be called, meaning not trapped, or sandbagged and that's about all you can do.
Also, understand, we quit hunting for money in the 70's. It's amazing the effort for a trophy, but they don't cheat. Money corrupts, I believe that. When all is said and done, money spent, what do you have as a memento? I have a whole room full of mementos.
gh/lb
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 10, 2011, 01:51 PM:
Been to a few contests and sat around dureing check-in and looked over what coyotes were brought in. Seen a few teams bring in coyotes shot mostly in the ass with the wound channel going forward into the coyotes body. It could of been a coyote shot out of a double and it was trying to make a get away, but 6 times out of 6 coyotes.. You would think they could get one or two head on or shot from the side... Proably the two biggest things the judges can't keep a handle on is the team hunting together or have they split up on a ranch in order to make more stands and increase there percentage and the other is just going around jumping them with the truck or shooting them out of sloughs...
Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on June 10, 2011, 02:01 PM:
Several years back on a place I hunted there were some live cage traps. The owner told me they were some guys trapping for fox pens. I came back later so I could chat with them; they said they had 8 for a client, so I started asking questions. Come to find out they sold to fox pens BUT they also had a guy that buys them to re-sale to contest hunters.
These guys said the fox pens pay them 85 bucks ahead but the contest hunter guy pays much more. They had just sold 5 to him and said he was taking them to a contest hunter in Indiana but the guy has a few customers that hunt all over. Haven’t seen them in my hunting areas in the past few years but I am sure they still do it. They were from Flat Rock Alabama.
I thought it was funny as hell some poor ole Alabama coyote taken away to be blasted by the 22-250 while in a cage in the mid west just to win a contest.
Back in the 80’s I caught several and threw them in the old dog pen and feed them dog food and after a week you wouldn’t ever know they were caught in a trap. Back then I was just trying to learn more about them they were pretty rare and hard to come by then.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 10, 2011, 02:04 PM:
In my entire 36 years on Earfth I've seen only ONE coyote around here, standing in a field and two road killed. They don't come out and play too often. If you wanna see coyotes, you have to be calling.
Edit: just read CCP's reply. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Amazing! Lol...
[ June 10, 2011, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 02:40 PM:
Yeah, it's amazing, and hard to believe. Seems difficult, near impossible to get a coyote in a cage? And, hunters that would do it are pond scum.
gh/lb
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 10, 2011, 03:51 PM:
I don't know why I think this and I have nothing to back it up, but, I think it would be easier to catch an urban coyote in a cage than one in the desert, farmland or wooded area.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 04:35 PM:
No, I don't think so? Urban coyotes aren't stupid, in fact, they might be smarter than average.
Besides that, Southern California has problems with urban coyotes, as does Phoenix.
Where else? That's all I know of? Probably wrong, but I doubt it's a source for caged animals to cheat on contests?
gh/lb
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 10, 2011, 05:32 PM:
I know urban coyotes are smart Leonard, very smart! I hunt suburban coyotes and they are stealthy as they come, and only hunt the late shift, for the most part.
I along with Rich H argued with some numbskulls, on PM, a few years ago, about how much smarter we figured the urban coyote was compared to "other" coyotes. IMO, they are smarter than country coyotes.
BUT! The reason I say they may be susceptible to cage traps is because a trap, a cage, a cage trap, as it were, would not look out of place in an urban setting, compared to, say, in the desert and a curious coyote may not mind investigating it.
Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on June 10, 2011, 05:53 PM:
The cages these guys had were out in the open pretty much and looked out of place. They were however much larger than any I have encountered in the past.
The ones I have seen worked(my uncle) they were smaller than the ones these guys had and set in hay corrals and cow lots. The ones in hay lots were set up between bales and covered very well with hay and was unrecognizable as a cage. The two set in the cow lot were easily seen by me and basically set in the path of travel through the lots were they made there way out the other side.I seen both of these and the hay lot ones work.
That said it is a hell of allot easier and success is 10 fold just using steal or snares.
I think your screwed up in the head to cheat at hunting coyotes but when money are chest thumping is involved the screw balls tend to come out.
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on June 10, 2011, 06:21 PM:
Went to two contests in OK last year that asked similar questions as Cdog mentioned but while you were hooked up to a polygraph machine.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 06:22 PM:
ditto that. edit: what CCP said.
Good hunting. LB
edit: I think the polygraph stuff is also getting a little overboard. Why not just waterboard the winners?
[ June 10, 2011, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on June 10, 2011, 06:38 PM:
If it keeps everybody honest then I'm all for it. Nobody wants to get beat by a cheater!
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 10, 2011, 07:05 PM:
We used to hunt a few but while talking with this one or that one, someone would eventually say, ya we spotted that one pulling into the gate...
On another occasion, I don't know all the details but some guys were sitting on dead piles at chicken ranches. Since it was a calling contest, they started cutting them open and if white feathers were found, you were out.
Money can make some do stupid things. I agree, the polygraph is the way.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 10, 2011, 08:04 PM:
The only problems with polys and the technician to administer the test so that they're done right are expensive to use and incorporating one into the setup would make most hunts cost prohibitive, and they're somewhat inaccurate. If I was to do anything, I'd ask my buddies with the SO trained in interrogation to interview the winning teams since they're trained in recognizing deception through non-verbal clues. They could start the questioning off with, "So, you know you cheated. We know you cheated. Do you really wanna carry that with you the rest of your life? Let's talk about it and maybe I can help you with a way out of this." I'm pretty sure everyone will, roll over.
Maybe Leonard has it right on that other thread... top five teams get waterboarded, cheaters or not.
[ June 10, 2011, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 09:11 PM:
Look, waterboarding is not torture, where hooking you up with electric wires is, actually.
Maybe a Priest should be there for confessions? You're not going to lie to God, right? Even smithers wouldn't try it.
I really don't know the solution for cheating. I just have to feel disgust that certain hunters are tempted to cheat.
Locked gates kinda puts me on tilt. We don't have that problem out here with all the available public land.
I know Jeremy is an honorable man and I have no intention of offending him. Peace, brother.
I'm just stating my opinion that the playing field is not even when some have the luxury of virgin coyotes that nobody else has. I can't compete without connections.
gh/lb
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on June 11, 2011, 06:01 AM:
Send a Rep with each team. This is how Geoff Nemnich handles it for the Coyote Craze Classic. Very fair for each team. Patterson knows how this works.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 11, 2011, 06:16 AM:
I brought that up years ago, before I ever had seen how a comp hunt was run. That's how competition hound events are run - a judge with each cast who either makes the call on site when there are questions, or contacts the Master of Hounds afterwards to get a ruling. The only difference between a Nite Hunt and a Comp Coyote Hunt is that in the former, the guys in the cast are competing against each other, whereas, of course, the team in a coyote hunt would have the judge just to make sure they abide by the rules. We considered it, but coming up with 100 volunteers was the deal breaker on that idea.
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on June 11, 2011, 11:05 AM:
Randy that would ideal but as Cdog pointed out it would be hard to do in a bigger contest.
The guy that did these contests in OK also does a bunch of Bass tournaments. Im not sure what he charges but I know lots of TX contests just include the cost of the poly guy into the entry fee.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 11, 2011, 11:29 AM:
The idea of haveing rep.s for each team is a good idea but like mentioned it would be difficult to find enough of them to go around for each team.. What they could do is take the number of Rep.s they do have and put them with teams that have done the contest before or with teams that have placed in the top 20 spots previous years or they could just assign each one a number and then draw the numbers from a hat and assign to each team drawn random.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 11, 2011, 01:28 PM:
Those are good ideas TA.
I'm gonna go all black helicopter and tinfoil on ya but as far as reps go. Do I want some random character trailing with me to MY spots? Maybe the dude has tourettes and is gonna be blurtin' shit out mid-stand? What if he's going through withdrawal and is shaking all about? Has a rep ever been accused of screwing up stands because their buddy is in the contest?
Yea, it's the Crazies...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 11, 2011, 01:45 PM:
Yeah, before I would want a ride along, I'd just quit. That's not a solution. That's actually why we quit hunting Mexico. New rules. Hooking up with a dumbshit guide down there just didn't coincide with our purpose and seriousness, and investment, not to mention the danger around every bend in the road. Good guys and bad guys, both of them were always a threat. Besides that, they would be in the way, that's obvious.
gh/lb
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 11, 2011, 02:09 PM:
From what contests I've read about that use a Rep. The Rep usually stays in or near the truck and dose'nt come on the stand itself. But like Leonard said would just as soon not hunt a contest that requires one to tag along.
The contest that I do thats put on by the V.H. dose'nt give out real big prizes or money so the cheating is'nt real serious but there are always a few that cheat just for the little bit they do give out. I had a gamewarden for a partner dureing one contest and we spotted two of his buddies running a coyote down a fence-line with there truck, he did'nt say one word about it.. LOL..
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on June 11, 2011, 02:17 PM:
I'd say it is easier to round up reps than most of you think. Now quality reps would be a different matter. Reps can sit in truck, shoot or call...it is up to the contestants. I killed over half the coyotes and called 80% of the stands so I would think that would be considered more than a tag-along. Two questions in the checkin line. How many did you kill....and how was your Rep. Not neccisarily in that order
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 11, 2011, 03:06 PM:
There's no version of that, that would work for me.
If the threat or the reality of cheating is that great, I'm just amazed!
We removed the money from the equation and that has a large impact on motivation.
The problem is that the rules seem designed by Democrats? There are some rules that don't make sense, to me. I really don't care if you shoot a coyote in a field without benefit of calling. They usually run and stopping them for a shot usually requires some sound.
Main thing is some rules are unenforceable, so you have a lie detector. I personally see absolutely no problem with one team member walking out one way and another walking out the other way. I just don't get it? Why should these guys have to sit within so many feet of each other?
We have had rules on flying and use of one vehicle and staying out of Arizona and a few others that cannot be policed so they were eventually discontinued. On the vehicle rule, we had one member ride a bike along a levy and another that had a skateboard with a motor on it hunting along blacktop, at night.
That's another thing, all our contests were designed so that if it was a daylight hunt, the hours were sun up to sundown. If it was a weekend hunt, night and day hunting was to be expected.
We invented this stuff. I don't see where these big hunts have improved on anything. I really like the attempt by the Mesa club to restrict hunting behind closed gates, for the World, in an attempt to level the playing field.
I'm not liking anything about what contest hunting has morphed into. We are still doing like we always have, with very few problems.
gh/lb
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 11, 2011, 03:19 PM:
I killed over half the coyotes and called 80% of the stands so I would think that would be considered more than a tag-along.
That's crazy! Did you pick the spots too?
Contests...
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on June 11, 2011, 09:22 PM:
No. I didn't pick stand locations. I was in country I had never seen before, but those locations were easy to see. I was not bragging, only saying a Rep is not always a hinderance to a team.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 11, 2011, 09:29 PM:
Along the same line as Randy points out, in talking with Quinton, he's judged for Geoff's contest and if it weren't for his calling and shooting skills, more times than not, the team to which he was assigned would have had no reason to go to check in. LOL
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 12, 2011, 08:50 AM:
I didn't think it was a braggadocio, I thought it was interesting. That's great if you can help a team out.
Another set of eyes and another gun is always good. I didn't realize reps could shoot, call or were even involved. That's why I brougt this thread up. I'm learning some great info on contests.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 12, 2011, 09:07 AM:
I don't do contest hunts (and hold them in generally poor regard, overall...), so my perspective is purely recreational calling, but...
quote:
Another set of eyes and another gun is always good.
Not "always"! It totally depends on whose eyes and whose gun. If they can't shoot worth a crap or keep themselves from being detected and identified by coyotes while on the way in to, or while on stand, or recognize high percentage plays for multiples and react accordingly, I'd just as soon not have them along. Again, speaking purely from my own experiences with recreational calling, I would say the majority of callers at large, are more likely to have an adverse effect on my success than to bolster it. Simply put, most of the callers I know around here, are going to cost me coyotes, not help me get more...
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 12, 2011, 10:10 AM:
I guess I know where I stand. I'll tell Scott.
I will say this. The more I see and understand about contests as they are being run most places, the more I dislike them myself, and that's saying a lot, since I cut my teeth on contest hunting well over 40 years ago.
gh/lb
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 12, 2011, 01:24 PM:
I don't think I'll be hunting any contests any time soon.
Reps: Never knew they had them, let alone that they could call and shoot on stand, (I don't like that idea) even having them ride along would be uncomfortable for me.
Polygraph: Wow! Craziness.
Skinning: Good idea.
Questioning: Good idea.
LB, did you hunt contests where you had to bring in tails only?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 12, 2011, 02:10 PM:
No, not exactly? Because of the numbers we had to move away from full body, and because of decomposition on a hunt running from Friday to Sunday. Also, the mess 40 whole bodies can make in a truck is impressive. Almost nobody hunted out of an open pickup, they all use some type of camper or shell and bagging coyotes they can still get underfoot and spill contents. Many times I have tried to get a nap sleeping on a bunch of dead coyotes.
So, we used a system where the clubs reps would submit various proof if kill and they would be put in a hat and drawn by someone in attendance. Two proofs required, like 1) tail with bone in and 6" of backstrap, and 2) both ears, scalp attached. Sometimes it could be both front paws or one whole leg, things like that. Sometimes proof of kill was whole body and this was usually submitted by someone that never killed more than 5 or 6 on a weekend and intended as punishment for those hauling back big numbers.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 12, 2011, 02:14 PM:
Unless I'm mistaken, the bigger contests Jeremie was talking about in Okieland pay out about $10,000 to win. That changes the dynamics and makes the polygraph not quite so crazy.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 12, 2011, 03:45 PM:
It's crazy for that reason alone. Just like the bass tournaments a few years ago where they were salting caged bass. That problem has been addressed and "I thinK" they have gotten away from teams so an observer is tolerable.
But, ten grand in a coyote contest is begging for cheating of some variation. And, I'm not suggesting Jeremy is doing anything like that but somebody might resort to cheating in an attempt to beat him.
This gets back to the closed gates issue. I have not seen much public land in Oklahoma, so it becomes a matter of who has the best access. That's a foreign issue, to me? I never hunted behind locked gates in any contest and never paid for the privilege or offered to split the prize money with the land owner.
gh/lb
edit: I did hunt behind closed gates on the St Francis hunt, one year with permission, so what I said above is not completely accurate.
[ June 12, 2011, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 12, 2011, 06:10 PM:
Not unbleieveable in Kansas, Elbee. Last week, I saw a notice that Kansas now has less public land than any other state in the union - it's official. And, if there's the remotest chance a deer might be on there, it's locked and leased.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 12, 2011, 07:14 PM:
I've heard Texas had only 2% public land.
We don't have much but I no longer hunt it anyway.
Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on June 12, 2011, 07:26 PM:
Isn't that figure a little misleading with the WIHA program?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 12, 2011, 07:33 PM:
Actually, I drove the Berlin Transit Autobahn through East Germany before they reunited. Reminded me of Texas, a little bit. You couldn't even take an offramp because there weren't any? Imagine that 400kilometers, no exits. The Intertanks (gas stations) were right on the Autobahn. It's kinda like that in Texas. Lots of blacktop and gates to ranches and oil fields. But, you won't see any dirt roads, unless you know somebody. It's disturbing, compared to all the wide open spaces in other western States.
gh....lb
edit: what misleading figures? what is WIHA?
[ June 12, 2011, 07:35 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 12, 2011, 07:39 PM:
Walk in hunter access, the state of KS leases land for public hunting from land owners.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 13, 2011, 05:27 AM:
They have something similar to WIHA here. But, with all the available public land, I dont take advantage of it.
Cdog, with the size of the whitetails and the lower numbers of resident hunters, compared to some eastern states, I'm not surprised that the land is leased if there are a few deer on it. A few guys I know travel to Ohio and Illinois.
[ June 13, 2011, 05:28 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on June 13, 2011, 10:12 AM:
As Randy mentioned, some contests have reps that tag along. Kind of a referee of sorts. The contest he is referring to does not have a 10K purse attached to it. Geoff pays out enough spots that cheating to get first is not worth it. He started using Reps because he did not like how contests were ran.
Here is my take on the reps.......you have a 50/50 shot at drawing a rep that will actually be of help. Geoff tells all teams and all reps that the teams have direct control over the situation. The rep does what you want him to as far as the hunt goes. In my mind its up to you to take control of the situation. Its a contest and there is no reason to mess it up and blame the rep later for something that you yourself could have prevented. If you dont want him moving around or messing up long shots, make him take the shotgun, if you dont trust him make him sit next to you so you can tell him to not move, tell him where to sit, tell him what to do, hide him behind a bush. Point is you have ultimate control and every rep I have met has been a great guy, understanding, and willing to listen. Our rep last year was a younger kid that didnt have much experience coyote hunting. He did great.
As far as locked gates.....Its just homework and everyone in a contest has the same amount of time to line stuff up. There is more than enough ground that you dont have to pay for or "lock up" that will win a contest.
Lance, you guys do a great job with the contest here.
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 13, 2011, 10:24 AM:
hide him behind a bush
Lol! I found that funny. Good post Patterson.
[ June 13, 2011, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on June 13, 2011, 11:29 AM:
good answers everyone. i hunt the coyotehunter.net tourny's and for the most part have faith in everyone with a few exceptions. good group of guys and i've made some great new hunting buds. . and now that the fur prices are up i'm thinking my tournament days are done. i ai'nt a rich man and had little time to spend last year recreatiolal hunting as i had to save up for the next contest.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 13, 2011, 11:48 AM:
We've fished in shark tournamnents where the biggest mako netted over $100K & billfish tournaments where the right marlin could land over $700,000 (with calcutta money).
Needless to say, polygraphs are mandatory & some tournaments require 'observers' on board to substantiate the catch.
Although I've never hunted in a coyote contest, I don't think I'd want an 'observer' riding along all day, just because...
[ June 13, 2011, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 13, 2011, 12:10 PM:
The Bisbee tournament in Cabo pays over a million dollars but at the highest level, I think it's more than a $10,000 entry fee? One big marlin can win it all. But, that's serious walking around money.
I know a guy that enters the Bisbee, he bought his wife a Bentley for her birthday. His racket is "POLITICAL AND CHARITABLE FUND RAISING"! Never knew it was so profitable? Uses his own boat, I think it's a 78 footer? (at least to get there) I have hinted around for an invite but it hasn't happened.
Those people make me sick.
gh....lb
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 13, 2011, 12:44 PM:
Bisbees Black & Blue is an uber rich showcase. It's hardly about fishing, more of a show off event & gambling expedition.
One dude pulled a custom jeweled lure valued at $1million behind his rig, just because he could.
million dollar lure
That is rather disgusting, if you ask me...
We're just a bunch of regular schmoes seeing how we fare against the best boats/crews on the east coast. The one big money toruney we fish is the Mid Atlantic $500,000
Wanna talk about a butt puckering moment? Waiting to see what your whitey weighs on the MA 500 scales!!!
Even a nice bull dolphin will win you a couple grand, as a consolation. Not enough to pay the fuel bill though...
IF we'd have boated this 800+ lb. beast on a tournament day, we'd have shared over 1/2 a mil.
This was just a fun trip, so she got a tag & swam off to fight another day...
[ June 13, 2011, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 13, 2011, 12:54 PM:
Hey Fred. Are you trolling with a Zuckor and throwing out a rigged mackerel when you get a follower, or are baitfish not allowed in that tournament.
gh....lb
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 15, 2011, 11:42 AM:
Sorry Leonard, I must've gotten preoccupied with 'cop bashing' & missed your question.
Dead bait is legit in the MA 5, but NO live baits allowed. Circle hooks are now mandatory for billfish, as well.
As for what we troll, it depends on what I'm seeing out there.
If we're 'hunting', I've got a spread of all plastic out to cover ground @ 8-9 knots. Mostly Pakulas in various head shapes & sizes, enough to give a windowshopper something to smash. In conjunction with a couple hookless teasers run off short rigger/bridge teaser reels, for effect...
If we're marking good bait, or there are tuna around, we'll slow down to 5.5-7 knots and I'll run small/medium ballyhoo pin rigged behind mini jets/chuggers with spreader bar teasers. Also, we'll have naked pitch baits ready for a hot marlin that comes a lookin'...
If we're REALLY on the bait, Capt. kicks in the trolling valves to get us down to 4-5 knots, nice enough to swim naked ballys on circle hooks. Then, out come the dredge teaser(s), run from downriggers in the transom corner(s)
I'll swim a spread of 4-6 naked ballys, with a horse mackeral skipping down the pipe, in case Mrs. Blue wants to eat.
Whiteys are like coyotes, where there's one, there's more! So I'll literally carpet bomb an area in a grid pattern once we get one raised.
For the naked baits, its finesse fishing where it pays dividends to see the marlin before it bites! That reel needs to be in freespool at the pick-up, or that sucka will spit it & booger.
That means, one dude in the flybridge calling the shots to the anglers in the pit...so they have rod in hand to freespool to the bite...
It really is a team effort and VERY exciting!
[ June 15, 2011, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 15, 2011, 12:28 PM:
Thanks. We don't have white marlin, mostly blues and striped, I hear of an occasional black. When is the season in full swing?
I like a lure with big eyes, whatever else it has. But it's mostly yellowfin and Dorado that take a lure, the billfish just play with it and look at it real good. I am unfamiliar with freespooling, in fact we set the drag fairly tight.
I actually think Dorado is the funnest fish in the ocean to catch. I love to see them streaking across the surface from any angle, like a big rat. I have seen bigger than the one you posted, but most of them down in Baja run less than 50 pounds. I wasn't on the rod, but I saw a huge Dorado boated out of Manzanillo, in the 75/80 pound range.
Do you look for dolphins when fishing yellowfin? That's almost a guaranteed hookup to get right in with dolphins, because as you probably know, marlin are seasonal and sometimes you go for what's there, at the time.
Whatever, I love offshore fishing. I think George is into it, too?
gh....lb
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 15, 2011, 01:27 PM:
Fred, I've fished all my life but I didn't understand a single thing you said.
Must be the accent. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 16, 2011, 05:54 AM:
might could be
Grab you a couple Okies & come see for ya-selves, if ya like!
Leonard,
When fishing offshore canyons during the summer, we primarily target tuna. 40-100 lb. yellows & 30-60lb. longfin albacore are the predominant catch in the deep, with a wolfpack of 150-300 lb. bigeyes always a possibility. Once we've got a couple in the boat, we can switch over to target billfish, for catch & release...
Our canyon season is very dependant on the Gulf Stream, and any warm core eddys that may spin off from the main current. When a warm core eddy (or the Gulf Stream proper) pushes up toward the 100 fathom edge of the canyons, that is a recipe for red hot action. The warm water influx into the nutrient rich, coastal shelf waters creates massive blooms of life that baitfish/squid thrive on. And the predators we seek to catch are never too far away...
Dolphins are usually a good indicator of bait being in the area, so yes we do get excited when they are around. & will troll around a school as they 'surf' the pressure curve off the bow...
Also, that warm water influx will create a sharp temperature break, or 'edge' that bait will stack up on. Predatory tuna & billfish will hunt these edges, much like a coyote does a creek bottom, or the edge of a corn field...
Dorado are VERY fun to catch! I'm sure you know they LOVE to hang around any flotsam, or floating structure. Oftentimes, on a canyon trip, we'll back up against a lobster pot buoy & bale chicken dorado until the cows come home. And they make a GREAT skip bait for a big blue!!!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 16, 2011, 11:56 AM:
It's amazing how you will see nothing for MILES, in any direction, and come to a tree branch, or a styrofoam cup, and there could be dozens of dorado under it. A buoy or plastic jug is even better. One word, kelp beds.
gh....lb
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 17, 2011, 07:11 AM:
Being that the Hudson Canyon is so close to a main shipping lane to/from New York Harbor, there is all kinds of crap floating out there. So much so that we've REALLY gotta keep our eyes open when running at 30 knots! Coming off a 4 footer onto a pitchpoling telephone pole will ruin your day in a hurry!
Couple years back, we came across a floating refrigerator out in the deep. It had been adrift for quite quite some time, as it was covering in growth and had a metric shot ton of life under it! We baled chicken mahis on cut bait & and jigged longfins for a good two hours next to that old 'frig. Then got up on troll, circled & took a nice bull mahi & 50lb wahoo, for good measure...
[ June 17, 2011, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
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