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Author
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Topic: Tournament Questions
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted June 10, 2011 05:32 AM
Leonard and bearhunter were discussing tourneys and I had a question or two. Having never hunted one I wondered what the general rules could be. I know they would be specific to whoever hold the event but in general...
Do they skin the animals out to make sure there are no marks on the hides from snares or check them out in any way to kinda keep the hunters honest? This is for smaller tournaments and for larger ones. The larger ones, I would presume, have more riding on them so the checks would be more in-depth.
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the bearhunter
HM PROSTAFF & MIDWEST REGIONAL GURU VOTED MOST HANDSOME MINNESOTAN
Member # 3552
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posted June 10, 2011 06:03 AM
if an animal is in question than yes, they may skin it. there are quite a few ways to tell if an animal was taken illegally (rules). i'm heading out the door in a coupla minutes to hunt coyotes for the weekend so gotta go now. i'll chime in when i get back. hopefully others will also.
Posts: 1049 | From: minnifornia | Registered: Jan 2010
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Patterson
19.6 miles down the Yellow Brick Road from THE EMERALD CITY
Member # 3304
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posted June 10, 2011 06:42 AM
Usually the larger contests have a fur buyer lined up. No checks are sent out until word from the fur buyer come back ok. I think they just do a quick look at the unusable coyotes and then make note if anythings fishy when they skin the rest. They look for snare marks, trauma from being run over etc.
A lot of the smaller ones are just on the honor system. You would have to be a low life piece of shit to cheat 20-30 local guys just out to have a good time.
Posts: 236 | From: Kansas | Registered: Nov 2008
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 10, 2011 08:05 AM
As far as the Kansas Predator Challenge goes, we do a number of things. First, when you pull up at check in, the coyotes are to be tagged with kill blocks in the order killed and the date and time killed recorded on a check sheet that is provided to the check-in judges. We line them up on tables and temperature probe them with digital probes in the glutes at one hip or the other. Those temps are then recorded on the check in sheet alongside the entry for that coyote. The body temp of the coyotes will begin to produce a pattern of sorts, with all coyotes taken from 8-9 am, for instance, on the second day producing the same general temperature. If we find one that is way off the mark, we denote it and come back to it later so as not to slow check in.
When the coyotes are being checked in and 2-3 times more after they're all laid out, myself, my partner, and sometimes at least one other person go through them and look for evidence of foot traps, snares, dog kill tears, road rash and the like - coyotes that were taken by any means other than those allowed in the hunt. Those, if any, are denoted as well for review after all check in is completed.
At that point, all the judges get together and go back to any and all coyotes that raised flags and share their thoughts on what we're looking at. If it is decided that there might be a problem, we go find the guys on that team, separate them and ask them to explain what we're seeing, then compare what they said.
We have a furbuyer that comes to the hunt. The kill blocks are left on the coyotes until they are skinned. The buyer is instructed what to look for and he reports back to us after all the coyotes are skinned as to any discrepancies, which are then followed up on and investigated.
If you're in the money winning level - say top 15 teams, we randomly pull seven different winning teams, separate the members into two groups, and each group submits to the same series of questions, usually 10-15 questions. These questions are usually obscure and delve deeply into what happened on the stand. For instance, question number two might be, "On coyote number 5, were you sitting on your partner's left or right, and how far apart were you?" 5b might be "who was doing the calling?" 5c might be "how far was the coyote from the shooter when the kill shot was made?" You learn that, on every kill, you take notes as to as much detail as you can because you will be asked to recall those details. When you only kill a coyote or two during the weekend, that's no biggy, but when you do like Patterson did and kill double digits, note cards are a good idea and they are allowed.
The only thing we cannot police, as we see it, is the guy who shoots one he sees standing out in a field and which was not called.
To their credit, the KPC has been going for five years and we've fielded an average 95 two-man teams each year, with the past two year having two hunts rather than one. By my best guess, we've put about 1200 coyote hunters in the field in that time under competition pressure and only know of one instance where we found cheating to have occurred.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted June 10, 2011 08:19 AM
Cdog, that's pretty in-depth ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Especially the questions about stands and distance. That's good info. Thanks for the post.
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 10, 2011 01:06 PM
You just have to keep details straight about the stand to prove that you and your partner were there together and saw the same thing. Two different stories means we have cheaters, and we try to pick the details that will be the least likely for cheaters to collaberate on. Hell, we might ask if coyote number 6 was taken with a rifle or shotgun, who shot, distance? Howe far were yuou from the truck, which direction were you looking when you shot, what color are your partner's socks, and how many pee stops did you have to take on Saturday? Stuff like that.
[ June 10, 2011, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 10, 2011 01:27 PM
We never did those type of inquiries, unless something looked suspicious. Believe me, the participants are the best detectives.
You have to remember that all of our hunts were events sanctioned by the CSVCA and all participants must be club members. There was very little chance of a ringer getting in and winning everything.
In fact, newcomers rarely faired well. A team had to be around a couple seasons before they learned the ropes.
One thing. Lance said something about a coyote standing in a field. This is something that is unenforceable and if it happens, since you cannot do anything about it, the rules state an animal must be called, meaning not trapped, or sandbagged and that's about all you can do.
Also, understand, we quit hunting for money in the 70's. It's amazing the effort for a trophy, but they don't cheat. Money corrupts, I believe that. When all is said and done, money spent, what do you have as a memento? I have a whole room full of mementos.
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32367 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted June 10, 2011 01:51 PM
Been to a few contests and sat around dureing check-in and looked over what coyotes were brought in. Seen a few teams bring in coyotes shot mostly in the ass with the wound channel going forward into the coyotes body. It could of been a coyote shot out of a double and it was trying to make a get away, but 6 times out of 6 coyotes.. You would think they could get one or two head on or shot from the side... Proably the two biggest things the judges can't keep a handle on is the team hunting together or have they split up on a ranch in order to make more stands and increase there percentage and the other is just going around jumping them with the truck or shooting them out of sloughs...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5619 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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CCP
Knows what it's all about
Member # 913
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posted June 10, 2011 02:01 PM
Several years back on a place I hunted there were some live cage traps. The owner told me they were some guys trapping for fox pens. I came back later so I could chat with them; they said they had 8 for a client, so I started asking questions. Come to find out they sold to fox pens BUT they also had a guy that buys them to re-sale to contest hunters.
These guys said the fox pens pay them 85 bucks ahead but the contest hunter guy pays much more. They had just sold 5 to him and said he was taking them to a contest hunter in Indiana but the guy has a few customers that hunt all over. Haven’t seen them in my hunting areas in the past few years but I am sure they still do it. They were from Flat Rock Alabama.
I thought it was funny as hell some poor ole Alabama coyote taken away to be blasted by the 22-250 while in a cage in the mid west just to win a contest.
Back in the 80’s I caught several and threw them in the old dog pen and feed them dog food and after a week you wouldn’t ever know they were caught in a trap. Back then I was just trying to learn more about them they were pretty rare and hard to come by then.
Posts: 117 | From: SouthEastern united states | Registered: Jul 2006
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted June 10, 2011 02:04 PM
In my entire 36 years on Earfth I've seen only ONE coyote around here, standing in a field and two road killed. They don't come out and play too often. If you wanna see coyotes, you have to be calling.
Edit: just read CCP's reply. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) Amazing! Lol...
[ June 10, 2011, 02:08 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 10, 2011 02:40 PM
Yeah, it's amazing, and hard to believe. Seems difficult, near impossible to get a coyote in a cage? And, hunters that would do it are pond scum.
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32367 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted June 10, 2011 03:51 PM
I don't know why I think this and I have nothing to back it up, but, I think it would be easier to catch an urban coyote in a cage than one in the desert, farmland or wooded area.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 10, 2011 04:35 PM
No, I don't think so? Urban coyotes aren't stupid, in fact, they might be smarter than average.
Besides that, Southern California has problems with urban coyotes, as does Phoenix.
Where else? That's all I know of? Probably wrong, but I doubt it's a source for caged animals to cheat on contests?
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32367 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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csmithers
unknown comic
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posted June 10, 2011 05:32 PM
I know urban coyotes are smart Leonard, very smart! I hunt suburban coyotes and they are stealthy as they come, and only hunt the late shift, for the most part.
I along with Rich H argued with some numbskulls, on PM, a few years ago, about how much smarter we figured the urban coyote was compared to "other" coyotes. IMO, they are smarter than country coyotes.
BUT! The reason I say they may be susceptible to cage traps is because a trap, a cage, a cage trap, as it were, would not look out of place in an urban setting, compared to, say, in the desert and a curious coyote may not mind investigating it.
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CCP
Knows what it's all about
Member # 913
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posted June 10, 2011 05:53 PM
The cages these guys had were out in the open pretty much and looked out of place. They were however much larger than any I have encountered in the past.
The ones I have seen worked(my uncle) they were smaller than the ones these guys had and set in hay corrals and cow lots. The ones in hay lots were set up between bales and covered very well with hay and was unrecognizable as a cage. The two set in the cow lot were easily seen by me and basically set in the path of travel through the lots were they made there way out the other side.I seen both of these and the hay lot ones work.
That said it is a hell of allot easier and success is 10 fold just using steal or snares.
I think your screwed up in the head to cheat at hunting coyotes but when money are chest thumping is involved the screw balls tend to come out.
Posts: 117 | From: SouthEastern united states | Registered: Jul 2006
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted June 10, 2011 06:21 PM
Went to two contests in OK last year that asked similar questions as Cdog mentioned but while you were hooked up to a polygraph machine.
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 10, 2011 06:22 PM
ditto that. edit: what CCP said.
Good hunting. LB
edit: I think the polygraph stuff is also getting a little overboard. Why not just waterboard the winners?
[ June 10, 2011, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32367 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted June 10, 2011 06:38 PM
If it keeps everybody honest then I'm all for it. Nobody wants to get beat by a cheater!
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted June 10, 2011 07:05 PM
We used to hunt a few but while talking with this one or that one, someone would eventually say, ya we spotted that one pulling into the gate...
On another occasion, I don't know all the details but some guys were sitting on dead piles at chicken ranches. Since it was a calling contest, they started cutting them open and if white feathers were found, you were out.
Money can make some do stupid things. I agree, the polygraph is the way.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 10, 2011 08:04 PM
The only problems with polys and the technician to administer the test so that they're done right are expensive to use and incorporating one into the setup would make most hunts cost prohibitive, and they're somewhat inaccurate. If I was to do anything, I'd ask my buddies with the SO trained in interrogation to interview the winning teams since they're trained in recognizing deception through non-verbal clues. They could start the questioning off with, "So, you know you cheated. We know you cheated. Do you really wanna carry that with you the rest of your life? Let's talk about it and maybe I can help you with a way out of this." I'm pretty sure everyone will, roll over.
Maybe Leonard has it right on that other thread... top five teams get waterboarded, cheaters or not.
[ June 10, 2011, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 10, 2011 09:11 PM
Look, waterboarding is not torture, where hooking you up with electric wires is, actually.
Maybe a Priest should be there for confessions? You're not going to lie to God, right? Even smithers wouldn't try it.
I really don't know the solution for cheating. I just have to feel disgust that certain hunters are tempted to cheat.
Locked gates kinda puts me on tilt. We don't have that problem out here with all the available public land.
I know Jeremy is an honorable man and I have no intention of offending him. Peace, brother.
I'm just stating my opinion that the playing field is not even when some have the luxury of virgin coyotes that nobody else has. I can't compete without connections.
gh/lb
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32367 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
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posted June 11, 2011 06:01 AM
Send a Rep with each team. This is how Geoff Nemnich handles it for the Coyote Craze Classic. Very fair for each team. Patterson knows how this works.
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 11, 2011 06:16 AM
I brought that up years ago, before I ever had seen how a comp hunt was run. That's how competition hound events are run - a judge with each cast who either makes the call on site when there are questions, or contacts the Master of Hounds afterwards to get a ruling. The only difference between a Nite Hunt and a Comp Coyote Hunt is that in the former, the guys in the cast are competing against each other, whereas, of course, the team in a coyote hunt would have the judge just to make sure they abide by the rules. We considered it, but coming up with 100 volunteers was the deal breaker on that idea.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted June 11, 2011 11:05 AM
Randy that would ideal but as Cdog pointed out it would be hard to do in a bigger contest.
The guy that did these contests in OK also does a bunch of Bass tournaments. Im not sure what he charges but I know lots of TX contests just include the cost of the poly guy into the entry fee.
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted June 11, 2011 11:29 AM
The idea of haveing rep.s for each team is a good idea but like mentioned it would be difficult to find enough of them to go around for each team.. What they could do is take the number of Rep.s they do have and put them with teams that have done the contest before or with teams that have placed in the top 20 spots previous years or they could just assign each one a number and then draw the numbers from a hat and assign to each team drawn random.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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