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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 30, 2011, 08:34 PM:
 
posted May 30, 2011 01:39 PM
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Seasonal Protection for the Coyote

I’ll try to tie this up and finally put it to rest.
Each spring the subject of hunting coyotes during denning season arises on the boards and is the source of much entertainment.
They usually began with an innocent question or comment about calling when puppies are in the den. Some responded pro ,more responded nay. As the threads progressed and escalated in emotional content they would become personal and sometimes abusive.
Inevitably, some uncaring or unknowing person would post hero shots posing with puppies blown up like a prairie dog and really fan the flames.
Vic Carlson, Cal Taylor and I would participate in these flame wars and we became very good at pointing out the lack of logic and morality in some of the most abusive and emotional posts. We did not make many friends doing so.
To be clear, I do not understand how anyone can shoot puppies for fun. I do not understand how anyone can feel good about the hunt or themselves after killing nursing female coyotes knowing the suffering they just orchestrated..
After such statements it is inevitable that someone would call me Disney Delusional or some such that diverts attention from the real issue of basic decency.
It is my belief that granting coyotes a 3 or 4 month break from the pressure applied to them by callers during denning and pup rearing will benefit us greatly, especially near urban areas that unleash armies of callers each year, by gifting us with larger populations of coyotes with higher security levels than the previous spring.
Many callers agree with the preceding until the issue of hunting seasons for coyotes arises.
My position as an Az resident is that it would be more beneficial for callers than detrimental for the reasons I cited in the preceding paragraph.
Lions, bear, fox, bobcat, badger, raccoon, ringtails, and coati-mundi all are provided protection without any of the chickenlittle scenarios feared by most opponents of a season for the coyote. Naturally, and very importantly, depredation permits must be granted on demand for offending coyotes without red tape or delay.
I just do not buy the argument that providing a season on coyotes will erode our freedoms as many opponents proclaim. Every other animal in Az., with the exception of invasive species, has been provided that protection without robbing us of our rights and freedoms.
But those are only my opinions and personal beliefs and I have never made any effort to have a season enacted anywhere at any time. To each his own.

Alas, in the heat of a debate with a particularly obstreperous and unpleasant individual, who’s posts seemed to question my parentage and my right to breathe his air, I was told that my beliefs were anti American and anti all that was good and pure.
The blithering idiot annoyed me and in yanking his chain I made the major mistake of stating something that was not true just to piss him off.
I stated that I not only believed in the necessity of a season but that I would campaign tirelessly for one. Major mistake. That has followed me for years and bit me in the ass on several occasions.
Most notably Brent Rueb canceled my seminar at the World Event a couple of years ago when provided that info by a couple of my admirers.
Jay Nistetter sent two letters to the Board of Directors and to the general membership of PVCI in an attempt to have me impeached as president of PVCI before I even took office.
And my friend Leonard Bosinski raked me over the coals here:
http://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002314;p=1
 

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Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on May 30, 2011, 08:38 PM:
 
Didn't I just read this post abaove? Quote fail?

Getting old Rich?
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 30, 2011, 08:41 PM:
 
For those who are wondering why I copy and pasted the above, I wanted to save it just for my own reference. Mr. Higgins posted on another board that he had changed his opinion in regard to the need for coyote season after talking to a biologist. I knew in my heart that he was not being truthful. He was running for President of a large coyote hunting club at the time you see. He can not delete MY post, so he is stuck with the real truth now.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 30, 2011, 08:44 PM:
 
Lungbuster,
Yep, I got old, fat and slow but didn't get stupid enough to lose that good information.
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on May 31, 2011, 02:42 AM:
 
Damn Rich...

If you want to save it just click,"File", "Save as... Web Archive..."single file.mht" ....
do I need to type slower?

That way it will be yours forever. Administrators and mods can't delete it if it's on your computer!

I've never killed a puppy... how does that feel Sir?

Nikonut
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on May 31, 2011, 07:14 AM:
 
What would the Internet be without these two at one another's throats? All is right in the spirit world now.

[ May 31, 2011, 09:26 AM: Message edited by: smithers ]
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2011, 07:15 AM:
 
Good morning, Rich.
Knock Knock. What's it like in there, Rich?
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2011, 07:29 AM:
 
FWIW, I did post that a biologist (Ron Day, AZG&F predator biologist) asked me to encourage the large PVCI membership to concentrate springtime calling in the 3 GMU where fawn survival is zero due to to coyote predation.

That was AFTER I was elected president.

We support the AZG&F Dept. 100%
Many of their officers are members of the clubs. Many are dedicated callers and literally one of us.
There is no us against them mindset between G&F and the civilian sportsmen.
G&F hosts seminars, bootcamps, and Sportsman's Expositions throughout the year.
We support and try to attend all of them.
When I encounter a G&F officer in the field I stop and talk with them. They have been, without exception, pleasant, interesting and informative.
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on May 31, 2011, 09:32 AM:
 
People apparently don't understand that you can be selective. One can only be for or against an issue and non-flexible. Which, I don't see being the case here. They're trying to Zumbo you, again.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2011, 09:58 AM:
 
Not everyone Chris.
Those with triple digit IQs understand the difference.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 31, 2011, 11:32 AM:
 
"People apparently don't understand that you can be selective. One can only be for or against an issue and non-flexible."
----------------------------------
Smithers,
With Higgins, it depends on who he wants to impress. Sometimes for it, sometimes against. A Jekyl and Hyde personality ya see.
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on May 31, 2011, 01:55 PM:
 
I know this much, when you two are battling, one of you seems to be having more "fun" than the other.
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 31, 2011, 02:30 PM:
 
Set this to music.
I like it, I love it, I want some more of it.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2011, 03:38 PM:
 
C'mon Cronk... Nobody loves a hater. Let it go. Most ppl your age are well past the "life's too short" thing to waste what time they have left on being a curmudgeon. With all the bullshit going on in this country today, you pick this?

Dan, I'm thinking that song by Taylor Swift that I dedicated to Tim a while back, "Why You Gotta Be So Mean?"
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 31, 2011, 04:51 PM:
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"C'mon Cronk... Nobody loves a hater. Let it go."
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Cdog,
I didn't start this train wreck, Higgins did. Tell your "Buddy" to let it go.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2011, 06:07 PM:
 
"I didn't start this train wreck, Higgins did. Tell your "Buddy" to let it go."

Unless you're wearing a cast on your arm from all the twisting, I don't know that anyone forced you to jump into this discussion, or any other. This issue has been so beat to death and the outcome often not much good for anyone involved that pretty much everyone knows that as long as it's legal in your area, let your conscience be your guide. Whether Rich is my friend or not is irrelevant. You're the one that came in bringing all the venom and seeing what you regard as an opportunity to do Rich harm and that pretty much defines all that is wrong with these boards the last few years. And BTW, whatever happened to "I'll tell you one thing, sir, this is the last time I will have words with you!" or something like that?

Like I said, is this really what you want to spend your time focusing on? Your choice, but speaking for myself, it's getting old. I've got enough drama in my real life to deal with right here. I come here to get away from that. But some people have a simple plan: Cruise, lurk, bitch, repeat. Hell, I've even gotten some good information from Tim's posts recently. Enough so that I'm giving him back his capital "T". Don't make me take your "R".
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 31, 2011, 06:21 PM:
 
I like both Rich's. Hey! Does that make me a rich man??? LOL

Not takeing sides but Rich H. did drag Rich C. into this thread by mentioning his name.. To keep the fighting to a minimum the names could of been left out. Right!!!!
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2011, 06:57 PM:
 

quote:

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I didn't start this train wreck, Higgins did. Tell your "Buddy" to let it go.

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cronk,
I really wish that I could let it go but you or your buddies keep dragging it up and beating me over the head with it. Leonard even did so here.
http://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=002314;p=1
The purpose of the threads I have posted in the last four days is to put an end to all of the nonsense.
The first post in my coyote season thread clearly stated my position on that issue however it was composed for the majority of the members here and not for the intellectually impaired.
In a good faith effort to finally put this issue to rest and to allow you peace of mind I will compose this statement without any polysyllabic words or complex phrases.
Sorry about that minor slip, cronk. To rephrase, I will use small words and short sentences so you can finally, after all these years, understand that:
I don't give a rats ass if you or anyone else hunts, shoots or copulates with coyotes in the spring or summer. That is your business not mine!!! I just think you're a putz if you do.

 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2011, 06:59 PM:
 

quote:

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Not takeing sides but Rich H. did drag Rich C. into this thread by mentioning his name..

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It would not have made a wit of difference.
I didn't mention your name.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 31, 2011, 07:07 PM:
 
What is "copulates"? Is that some kinda kinky Po-po thing?
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on May 31, 2011, 07:23 PM:
 
Some people just can't seem to make a point or give an answer without belittling someone first.

Putting the debate to rest doesn't mean bringing it up again.

Recounting events with false and partial information most often leads to false conclusions.
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 31, 2011, 07:41 PM:
 
"What is "copulates"? Is that some kinda kinky Po-po thing?"

I don't know, but he spelled it right.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 31, 2011, 08:12 PM:
 

quote:

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Some people just can't seem to make a point or give an answer without belittling someone first.

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quote:

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Putting the debate to rest doesn't mean bringing it up again.

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quote:

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Recounting events with false and partial information most often leads to false conclusions.

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quote:

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Not takeing sides but Rich H. did drag Rich C. into this thread by mentioning his name..

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quote:

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I'm hoping that Tim is right about the way this works

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Rich not sure on how anything works.. The thing is why go dig up a dead horse and beat it some more, its not going to solve anything or change the way some people feel or think..

Why not just burry the hachet and move on...
Tell you what, you have Gary C. send me a E-mail makeing a peace offering and I'll do the same and you do likewise with Leonard, Cronk and anyone else that comes to mind..
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 31, 2011, 09:06 PM:
 
Mr Nistetter, regarding the coyote behavior dvd.

Who pulled the trigger on the coyote pup, you or Mock ?
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on May 31, 2011, 09:15 PM:
 
Which pup? There were two.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 31, 2011, 09:26 PM:
 
I guess, that I missed the second one ? that may have been about the time I pushed the stop button.

So who did it, or to them ?

[ May 31, 2011, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on May 31, 2011, 09:34 PM:
 
Dave. Obviously you didn't like what you saw. Would it change your opinion of me if I told you that I shot the young coyote? It was late August when that film was shot.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 31, 2011, 09:44 PM:
 
It doesn't matter, I asked a very simple question. And would appreciate a simple response.
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on May 31, 2011, 09:49 PM:
 
Alright. Mock was the triggerman. Just curious where you are headed with this. Is that a fair question?
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 31, 2011, 09:59 PM:
 
I'm not headed anywhere with this, I just wanted to know. BTW shooting pups is bullshit, I don't care what time of year it is.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2011, 10:32 PM:
 
There's an enlightened opinion. I have shot a number of young coyotes. A simple question, why is that bullshit? Are we supposed to check I.D.?

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 31, 2011, 10:52 PM:
 
I'm referring to a coyote that would appear to be a few months old..And yeah I call that bullshit.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2011, 11:10 PM:
 
Here's my position on the slippery slope, since there are some people that question killing anything you don't intend to eat.

As long as the coyote is a non-protected animal, there are no rules governing which gender should be killed and when and if so, who is entitled to kill such animal, for what reason.

To pass judgement on somebody, like Jeff Mock, a person I have no intention of supporting, is opening the door to a lot of conditions, non of which are enforceable, nor are they logical.

Is opposition because of an ethical position? Many of us, including me, voluntarily respect the denning season, which for me is usually sometime in February, until about August. At that time, any coyote any sex, any age is fair game.

If someone has a problem with the conduct of another hunter, I think the standard fall back position, is it legal, should prevail.

If not, I can see a point in time where a game warden might inspect a kill and maybe weigh a coyote and issue a citation for violating the minimum age.

There are regulators that are ready and willing to have you check in your coyotes and affix a tag. We have a certain amount of freedom with respect to bag limits and such. If those of us complain about what others do, the hammer could come down on what the complainer does, just as easily.

I do not like the specter of regulation for anything coyote. If the agreement with the Devil is allowing some regulated night hunting while, at the same time imposing a mandatory season on coyotes, that would be foolish and stupid, in my opinion.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2011, 11:16 PM:
 

quote:

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I'm referring to a coyote that would appear to be a few months old..And yeah I call that bullshit.

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I didn't have a dog in this fight until I see someone acting judgmental. That's what I call BULLSHIT.

If you want to start a quarrel over such a petty issue, take it somewhere else, Amigo.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 31, 2011, 11:23 PM:
 
Not a problem. It is your board run as you so desire.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 31, 2011, 11:27 PM:
 
YES, IT IS AND I INTEND TO DO JUST THAT. YOUR OPINION IS DULY NOTED. NOW DROP IT.
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 01, 2011, 01:37 AM:
 
The way I read RH's posts, they are a way to get some to bury THEIR hatchets.

Just my Dr. Phil analysis of the written word. Events may differ slightly from the other reader's POV.

Whether it's the coyote reg posts or the Leonard posts. They are written, I think, as part of a process. A process that leads to healing... healing... HEALING old wounds! People, open your hearts and let the sun shine IN!

Ah, whatever, be stubborn...
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on June 01, 2011, 02:39 AM:
 
I didn't really have a dog in this fight either but I think we are walking the same line just on other sides of it. I don't shoot baby rabbits, birds,kitties or even coyotes even if it is legal... if that makes me judgemental than I'll call bullshit also.

Leonard, it's ok to run this however you want and I would never expect less from you. I'm just trying to point out that you are being just as judgemental.

All of us should have more concern for how we look to non hunters than to bring possible attacks upon any of us by our actions.

If it's legal, it's legal... doesn't always make it right. I will respect your wishes now as well, I've said my piece. and am at peace.

Nikonut
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 01, 2011, 04:03 AM:
 
WOW! So when does a coyote become fair game?
What would be the telling characteristics?
Weight? Height? 4 months? 5 months?
I have seen pup-size coyotes in mid-November.
When is it OK to take down a coyote?
Does location have any bearing?
How about the shooters age or gender?
It’s not like anyone is out there trophy hunting.
Is it bullshit because I use a 450?

I’m not calling bullshit on my partner because he makes a shot on a small coyote and I wouldn’t call bullshit if he chose to not shoot either. I wouldn’t call bullshit on my partner for shooting a spike bull elk, first year dove, 60 pound lion or doe deer either.

I’ll tell you what bullshit is. Why is it OK for every swinging D recreational hunter to violate his self-imposed season to shoot coyotes and become Mister ADC Man when a rancher or farmer tells them to shoot coyotes? I shake my head every time I hear the justification… “I was doing ADC work. Otherwise I wouldn’t have gone out there to shoot coyotes.” Or how about… “Normally I don’t shoot coyotes during the summer but the rancher called and ….” We’ve all heard the fallback excuses for taking coyotes during those “offensive to others” times. These types aren’t doing ADC work. I have no friggin idea what it takes to do ADC work nor do these people. All they are doing is jumping at the chance to go shoot coyotes during times they normally don’t.

The other thing I have issues with are those that claim that they lay off the coyotes during the summer so that there’s more targets for them during the fall. That’s not an example of respect OR ethics. That’s self-serving. Why is a September coyote fair game and an August 31st coyote not? The chest-pumping proclamation by those that don’t start shooting coyotes until October baffles me. To them, that extra month must mean that the young coyotes have achieved all of their life experiences.

FWIW - Do I typically hunt during the summer? I would guess I shoot 2 or 3 coyotes during that time of the year. It basically boils down to opportunity aligned with energy and desire. I would much rather go bowfishing or cat fishing.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 01, 2011, 05:51 AM:
 
“Normally I don’t shoot coyotes during the summer but the rancher called and ….”

So Jay, what would you do if the guy who lets you hunt on his property comes by and says I want em gone?

I don't have any fantasies of doing ADC work, I know I'm a recreational caller. I quit around the end of Febuary for my own reasons. But like I asked what do you do when 2 landowners come in and one has a predation problem, which I told him wasn't after talking to an ADC man here, the other liked the way I kept em thinned out when I was hunting.

Self serving? Hell yes, the latter guy has another 5000 acre ranch I'm hoping to get on.
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 01, 2011, 06:18 AM:
 
Tom, if I'm asked, I'd try. He's the boss. I make sure that the owner or bossman knows that I am not an expert or ADC man but would shoot all the coyotes I could if that's what he wanted.
No guarantees. No promises. I usually throw in the comment that I am generally a 70+% shooter on coyotes I call in. I tell the guy the truth and they know if you're shining them on or not.

I would also explain that my distance from his property and opportunity to hunt it may not be timely or enough to be effective other than possibly one, two or three coyotes I could shoot if conditions are good. Trust me... One or two coyotes in the truck are golden no matter how good you are.

The most important part is to not promise more than you can deliver. If after listening to the owner it may be such that he really needs a pro or trapper to come in. Tell him so. Give a name if you can and follow up saying that once the problem is cleared up that you would still be interested in the possibility of hunting his place.

I mean you don't want to take a poorly running truck to the shop and pay someone NOT to fix it. You would much more respect a mechanic who tells you that he thinks it's over his head and you should probably take the truck to s0-and-so place.

And YES. It is self serving but Not measured in days or a few weeks. Your goal as is mine is to possibly keep hunting the property and even let the relationship grow to include other hunting opportunities.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 01, 2011, 06:52 AM:
 

quote:

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So Jay, what would you do if the guy who lets you hunt on his property comes by and says I want em gone?

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quote:

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I have spoken on the phone with Higgins, and allowed myself to forgive him at least twice. I feel that twice is enough. He is one of the biggest trouble makers on the net.

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quote:

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NEWS FLASH! i'm on a team working to develop a new line of e-callers that will hopefully be available by this fall, fcc rulings being waited on. foxpro quality, live sounds, very affordable price points and backed by some deep pockets. there will be no stinking gay field staff positions, sorry fellers.

the word "oracle" will be part of the e-caller lineup, hence my handle here.

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Let this post be the one that comes back to bite you in the ass "Oracle"! You must be an educated idiot to think doing what you have here will help sell calls... WOW, really lame!

Anyone wanting to spend a few dollars can find out what they want from public records searches. Even though probably legal, there is no reason to then post that info online. Very poor morals and judgement in my opinion.

Do a search on me... you'll find I'm broke and crazy, not much to lose, and definitely not the kind of person to piss off.

Nikonut

Edit to change wording...

[ June 01, 2011, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 01, 2011, 12:24 PM:
 
Good GAWD people!!!!

Somebody PLEASE send me some food stamps.

I'M DYIN' HERE!!!
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 01, 2011, 12:30 PM:
 
Leonard, I will consider this post to be Part IV and have done with it since you just declared once again that we are not friends.
So that some can keep abreast I will keep it short and linear.
You said:

quote:

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I suspended his account for about 30 minutes over something he said on monster, defending Fruit Loops and he went ape shit and showed his true colors. That little "joke" blew up in my face when I realized that he was not going to call or email and said it didn't matter anyway, he had other plans.

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Leonard, I defended you on monster, not Fruit Loops.
I defended Fruit Loops here when you attacked him.
I did not take sides against you. I simply listed his good qualities.
YOU went apeshit. You told me I was not your mother. I replied that if I were "I would wash your mouth out with soap and make you stand in the corner."
You banned me. You closed Huntmasters down for several days.
Search page 28 Member Forum Nov-Dec 2008

When you brought the board back up DAA posted on Dec. 18 ..Thank Goodness.

Three members said thanks for bringing it back.
You said:

Icon 1 posted December 17, 2008 09:28 AM Profile for Leonard
Yeah, I had to go stand in a corner....

You deleted everything that was posted from Dec. 4 to Dec. 16 12 full days deleted.
PMS has never equaled that.

On Jan 19 Locohead posted
Rich Higgins,

Where are you Proffessor?

Anybody seen or heard from the Jolly old sage???

You are missed bro'. Where are you?

--------------------
I love my critters and chick!!!!

DAA answered
Rich has been banned.

- DAA

You posted

Yeah, I'm taking it kinda hard, too. Worst divorce since the Coyote Gods. I'll miss him, we all will, but he will be fine.

Good hunting. LB

That was NOT a joke as you now claim.
In the last 2 years you have called me butthead, asshole, back-stabbing ex friend, deceitful, giggles, in post after post giving your revisionist version of what really happened. There are several members that remember exactly how it went down and have remarked about your distortion of the event.
I remained silent and waited for a call or email. None ever came.
I have never called you names. I have never posted a derogatory remark about you anywhere. If you claim otherwise SHOW ME. and I will publicly apologize. If you apologized to me for all the nastiness you have said about me it would take a full page of your forum. That makes you a lousy friend and definitely an ex-friend.

- This is bound to go the same route as 12 days of everyone's posts in Dec. 08. W
hen they are deleted I will post screen shots of all these threads on PredatorProfessionals in the Campfire forum. You cannot revise history there.

[ June 01, 2011, 12:38 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on June 01, 2011, 12:44 PM:
 
Just do like I do and have done since my days at PM...

Save the pages as .mht files! It even saves the formating.

I'll say here that I think you and Leonard should talk this out privately and decide if you can be friends again, anything is possible.

Nikonut
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 01, 2011, 12:56 PM:
 
Niko,
I knew when I hit the submit button that
I'm losing a long and very important part of my life.
I really am sad about this.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2011, 12:58 PM:
 
Higgins, you are not welcome here. I think you have far abuse my hospitality. You don't have the right to come in here and stir shit. I don't participate on your board and do not welcome your contributions here. Get lost.
 

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Posted by Oracle (Member # 3839) on June 01, 2011, 01:17 PM:
 
niko-nimitz, no worries here my friend.

a couple of dozen po'boys on this site wouldn't have the means to buy our new e-caller lineup anyway.
some of you probably could, but the internet junkies aint out hunting anyway, so moot point

even when they start at $99 and go up to $319 for a model that will be the state of the art system, a bunch of guys mad at me or our co. ain't going to matter.

you are probably mad at your local piggly wiggly grocery store to, but since you exist on food stamps and govt cheese and aint going to shop there anyway, piggly wiggly don't care about you

ditto, baby

also would like to announce that we are developing a new predator hunting website and forum.

it will be much like the current world biggest yada yada yada but we will admit to being FOR PROFIT

will sell advertising, wont have scham "scholarships" nor a bunch of phonies claiming its all volunteer and nobody is compensated.

no moderators, the ownership will police the site plus let the members police themselves.

there will be some strict rules. no off topic, keep it fairly light hearted, banter and cordial disagreement is encouraged

teachers pet syndrome and site asskissers will be escorted to the door.

all will be invited in, including banned folks from other sites

the current phony regime at you know where wont be included. playing the field on both sides is a no no and we know who they (you) are

competing e-caller companies are invited to advertise and open discusssion and comparison is encouraged.

deep pockets backing this venture, also.

no backroom cowardly committee to decide your fate

sorry, probably no 15 minutes of fame/shooters services unlimited small time acts allowed

we already have some big industry names on board

again, admittedly FOR PROFIT

no weasely excuses, no reach around raffles

get together type hunts and luncheons encouraged

finally a viable website to bring predator hunters together

no behind the scenes divide and conquer schemes

no bb gun blogger or gay cowboys

its going to be good and is going to make a current group of douche bags sad

no power plays, no dirty fucking french canadian just predator hunters who share same goals

not meant to displace sites like huntmasters

links to site like huntmasters is encouraged

not sure if we'll host a hunt, if so, it will admittably be FOR PROFIT

some serious folks behind this, not some guy sitting in a cubicle at a car dealership wanting to fool the world about being a big timer in the predator hunting world

a good chance that we won't be extremely profitable but thats not the point

will update more about this later

good hunting, or internetting, whatever you do

do your passion

ken, your invited to attend to

niko, i think we'll need to think you over LOL

[ June 01, 2011, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: Oracle ]
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 01, 2011, 01:17 PM:
 

quote:

---

The threads were not meant to be dramatic.
They are intended to be a chronicle of events as they occurred to the present time.

---

quote:

---

April 15, 2009

Phoenix Varmint Callers
P. O. Box 87153
Phoenix AZ 85080-7153

PVCI, etal,

Today’s political atmosphere offers much to worry about (PVCI notwithstanding).

In light of quotes broadcast over the internet from PVCI’s newly elected president, it is with great concern that I pose the following question:

Will PVCI pursue, promote, endorse, lobby or campaign for any mandatory closed season in the hunting of coyotes on a statewide level apart from personal practices by individuals themselves?

The quotes I am referring to made by Rich Higgins are as follows:

"The argument that there is no closed season on the coyote does not make killing parents and puppies moral or ethical simply because it is not yet illegal. That will change. And I will campaign for it." [sic]

"Some states have offered some protection during whelping season, I am sure that more will follow. I will happily and fanatically work to that end." [sic]

“by campaigning for seasonal protection for the coyote, we demonstrate to our detractors and to the fence sitters that actually hold the future of our sport in their voters hands, that we value and take seriously the stewardship of game management that our destruction of habitat has made necessary.” [sic]

One of the many fine qualities of PVCI is the commitment to PROMOTE Predator Hunting by opening up more predator hunting opportunities rather than limit predator hunting opportunities based upon one’s personal emotions. Emotional injections, and lack of education have been the bane of firearms and hunting for years. Erosion of such liberties and freedoms historically come in small increments.

I for one do not want emotion-driven ideologies deciding when I can and cannot go hunting. Nine years ago I worked tirelessly to protect the hunting traditions of PVCI from nut-jobs who cried something very similar. Now it comes from within.

Since the current PVCI president is an outspoken advocate for limiting coyote hunting opportunities by establishing seasons based on emotions, I have a huge concern with hidden personal agenda. If a 5 month closed season is handed over free gratis, the animal rights advocates instantly become 42% closer to their ‘No-Hunting’ goal of 100%. This becomes a huge victory for their side. They have won.

Hunting is a management tool. Each and every member of PVCI is a management tool. Limiting the tools in the box makes management much more difficult. If we lived in a perfect world where nobody hunted, like the true bunny huggers and cross-over puppy huggers wish, everything would be simply wonderful. Simply wonderful, except that I don’t get it. Will PVCI become an advocate for closed seasons? If so, what will be the next step?

If the answer to the proposed question is yes, then I feel the unintended consequences would be far reaching. Long careful thought should be given before acting. I am against any proposal that would limit hunting opportunities and thrust someone else’s emotionally driven moralities on others. That is the very thing that happened in 1990 when nut-jobs wanted to force their misplaced moralities down PVCI’s throat in an attempt to eliminate contest hunting (scramble hunts). The current sitting president wasn’t around then to understand just how scary close PVCI and other clubs came to being shut down.

If the answer to the proposed question is no, then I feel it prudent that the PVCI Board and PVCI club body take necessary steps to ensure that any closed season remains a personal choice rather than a mandatory one.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Jay Nistetter
PVCI Life Member

---

quote:

---

Rich:
I have read some quotes that I questioned you about and you denied them to me. I have attached the statements that are in question.

I am saddened that you want and will support a closed season on coyotes. It also saddens me that you denied to me that you made these statements.

---

quote:

---

i am shocked to read that you in fact did do a cut-delete job on a series of posts

---

Don't get too excited. Higgins little buddy really started some offensive stuff and on impulse, I erased his contributions. I don't have to apologize for what I do to run this Board, but what Higgins has to say previously is a fucking lie. In my wildest dreams, did I ever think he was capable of stooping so low. But, he is a political animal so I shouldn't be surprised.

Higgins, do not think you have reason for the last word. You do not and if you do, you might force me to do what you have already falsely accused me of doing. Go away, now. You have already come back when I specifically asked you not to and I am insulted by your behavior. You can attack members somewhere else, I don't care if your name is brought up or not, I do not want you posting on my Board. I can't make it any plainer? LB
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2011, 02:22 PM:
 
People here can be friendly with Higgins as it pleases them. I will not form opinions, or get into disputes over it, which is completely different than some people. I am not going to use this board to denigrate him or anyone. Look at what he says. He will continue his (so called) peace overtures on his board and offer to beat up those he has had disagreements with. To me, it looks immature, but if it makes him happy, I don't care. Why did he exclude me from his list?

He didn't want friendship, I don't know why he created this controversy, but he knew for sure that it wouldn't solve anything? The only conclusion I can come up with is he wanted to stir shit and make me look bad. Thanks for that, Rich, but I do a good enough job of it without your help. LB
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 01, 2011, 02:24 PM:
 
I wanna fight everyone in here now!! Let's go!!
 

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Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on June 01, 2011, 03:36 PM:
 
smithers LOL YOUR THE BEST!
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 01, 2011, 03:41 PM:
 

quote:

---

TA, if the problem is immediate, most ranchers would expect an immediate response, or find someone else that could accommodate them.

---

Youre probaly right but if the problem is that serious then maybe they should be looking for a ADC trapper.. Not saying Tom is'nt up to the job but is he going to stay the course till the job is done and once he does kill a few coyotes is he going to cut there stomachs open and check to see if he got the right ones or not????
If there is a coyote problem why wait till summer to try and thin the herd? Why not go at them dureing the winter or late winter..

[ June 01, 2011, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 01, 2011, 04:52 PM:
 
Goddamnit TA! What the fuck is wrong with you!? You stupid, silly bastard!? Coyotes that are shot in the winter would quickly be replaced by others if it is good territory! Get your head out of your ass! I'm fighting you first, put down the whiskey jug. No weapons...

I didn't get the tingly feeling some of you must get when typing to TA. I think I'll keep being civil with him. That was written as a joke, TA. I still like you and your posts. BUT! There is no E in DURING!

[ June 01, 2011, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2011, 04:54 PM:
 
Don't worry. I know people have a tendency to choose sides over chickenshit stuff like what Higgins has brought over here without any warning and with questionable motives.

Go ahead and be friends with him, I could care less if everybody leaves over the shit. But, make no mistake, he had evil intent and a lot of ammo. Why I allowed him the soap box as long as I did, I can't answer, except I believe in everybody getting an opportunity to express themselves.

He far exceeded my patience days ago, but I let him go on and on and it was probably a mistake? When I finally had something to say about it, the knives came out immediately, as I knew they would, without any doubt.

Nothing I say is remotely correct, what little I said. He cited chapter and verse, and it was proofed and ready to go. it's a wonder he ever had anything to do with me, in the first place, since I'm such a jerk? Why would a smart fine fellow like Higgins even want to be my friend, after all the abuse he has suffered at my hand?

I bet he has already explained why he started this crap, on his board, in his mind, totally justified. His trip down memory lane did not pluck the strings of my heart in the slightest....and had he bothered to check ahead of time, I would have told him to save the effort.

This situation is beyond repair and he is an idiot to not know that. There I go calling names again, but who started this and why did he do it? None of it was friendly to me. Absolutely none of it. Typical vintage Higgins. He has his problems with a lot of people and it is familiar. Innocent Rich gets picked on, and everybody should feel sorry for him. Spare me the friggin' sob story.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 01, 2011, 05:23 PM:
 
I am just annoyed LB we were having a decent chat on the phone, you felt the need to man your battle stations...
 

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Posted by kodiak61 (Member # 3255) on June 01, 2011, 05:27 PM:
 

 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 01, 2011, 05:31 PM:
 
smithers and kodiak, what the hell can I say about your timing!!!!
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 01, 2011, 05:32 PM:
 

quote:

---

TA. I still like you and your posts. BUT! There is no E in DURING!

---

Yes there is if I put one there... dureing,dureing, dureing.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 01, 2011, 05:41 PM:
 
Ok smitters I agree, Tom needs to get in there and kill some pups to help save the deer..

Question: How many deer can this springs pups kill over the summer month's????

Tom nothing against you if you want to hunt coyotes this summer, just make sure you stay down there when you do...
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 01, 2011, 06:15 PM:
 
The pups can probably kill exactly zero. But mom and pop coyote and friends could kill a whole hell of a lot, if given the opportunity.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 01, 2011, 06:16 PM:
 
Quote,
YES, IT IS AND I INTEND TO DO JUST THAT. YOUR OPINION IS DULY NOTED. NOW DROP IT
-------------------------------------------------
Leonard, did you really think that, I'm going to drop it ? Last I checked I don't take shit from anyone, and that would include you..

I thought there was freedom of speech here ? I expressed my opinion, and you attacked me, I did not go after you..
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 01, 2011, 06:19 PM:
 
Question: How many deer can this springs pups kill over the summer month's????
-----------------------------------
Tim,
It isn't the pups that do the killing in spring, it is the parents of those pups. They can kill a lot of lambs or fawns in a very short time.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2011, 06:20 PM:
 

quote:

---

I am just annoyed LB we were having a decent chat on the phone, you felt the need to man your battle stations...

---

Actually, I am watching tennis.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on June 01, 2011, 06:20 PM:
 
Timmey. i won't go far as to say killing coyotes is easy, but it can be "fairly" so if they have pups in a den. coyote vocals and specially pup distress can work super good. i can't say i'm any expert on the subject as i only spent maybe 20-25 days EVER hunting summer coyotes but the time was well worth the learning expereance. i will personally kill every pup,juvie,adult in the area i live... anytime anywhere. and YES, i'll do it to save the little bit of game we have here. if you were here, you'de understand.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2011, 06:28 PM:
 
Okay, Dave Allen. I apologize, you can express yourself all you want but do you admit I have some authority to control anything?

I did not like the tone you took with Uncle Jay and I will tell you why. Actually, I already told you, so read it again and remember the only TOS on this board is; don't piss me off.

If I want you to get off of the pup shit, because it furthers Higgin's agenda, then you should respect my wishes. Is that too much to ask? I don't think that it is.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 01, 2011, 06:43 PM:
 
Leonard, I realize the only TOS, is not to piss you off. That being said I can't read you're mind ? How the hell am I supposed to know what pisses you off ?

As far as the Higgins agenda goes, I really don't know what you're talking about.

I'll just say again, that I don't agree with shooting pups. Or obvious, young ones anyway.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 01, 2011, 06:44 PM:
 
Yes Bear I know they are easier at this time of year.. I've been out with a few ADC trappers in my time and have done a little calling in July also...

I hunt coyotes at home here for some of the same reasons as you. Too help out the pheasants but the coyotes are more important to me than any other animal, could care less about the deer, we have too many as it is.. Difference between us is I can turn it off, while some can't..

As for youre deer numbers being low stop hunting them for a year or two they'll come back....
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 01, 2011, 06:55 PM:
 
Tim a reading comprehension class would do wonders for you...

"Youre probaly right but if the problem is that serious then maybe they should be looking for a ADC trapper.. Not saying Tom is'nt up to the job but is he going to stay the course till the job is done and once he does kill a few coyotes is he going to cut there stomachs open and check to see if he got the right ones or not????
If there is a coyote problem why wait till summer to try and thin the herd? Why not go at them dureing the winter or late winter.."

The only problem is the landowner wants the numbers thinned. The foal incident on the other place, was most likely still born, no problem. He still wants them thinned.

Am I gonna stay the course and cut open the bellies of every coyote I kill? Why would I do that, I'm not WC and there is no problem other than more coyotes running around than either of these two guys would like to see.

I thinned the bigger place till I could get no response and he, nor his hands were seeing any coyotes, none. I hunted them from January through Febuary, maybe into March. I think I did a pretty good job as a recreational caller and evidently he thinks so too. He just wants me back out there to thin the numbers. That's it, no damage has been done, call it preventative maintanance if you like. I'm just gonna keep him happy so he lets me hunt. Selfish I know.

"Ok smitters I agree, Tom needs to get in there and kill some pups to help save the deer..

Question: How many deer can this springs pups kill over the summer month's????

Tom nothing against you if you want to hunt coyotes this summer, just make sure you stay down there when you do... "

Who cares about the deer?

Zero but do you think they drink milk until fall gets here?

Are you being selfish now Tim?

Don't worry Leonard, you've put up with me longer than any other place on the net, I ain't going nowhere.

(Made you feel better now didn't I?)

Beside we still have Tim and 49 to harass.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on June 01, 2011, 06:57 PM:
 
i'm only allowed 1 deer a year which SUCKS as i'm a meat eatin SOB. thank God for bear. simply put, i feel like i've become a better coyote hunter since learning/hunting them last summer. plus its a nice time to roam the prairies.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 01, 2011, 07:13 PM:
 
Quote from myself.
-------------------------------------------------
Not a problem. It is your board run as you so desire.
-------------------------------------------------
That wasn't me being a smart-ass, thats what I meant, thats all...

(Edit) thanks for the new custom title, Lol

[ June 01, 2011, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2011, 07:15 PM:
 
Yes, Tom, I do feel better. You sound and look more like JD every friggin' day. Tim is behaving himself and contributing, can you find it in your heart to quit being mean?

Good hunting. LB

Actually, I do feel better now that Higgins took the hint. I started reevaluating every single relationship that was influenced by me supporting Higgins, in his quarrels on the Internet over a multitude of subjects and issues. I found out that some of the attitudes I had were based on faith, just because Higgins was my friend. I do not feel that I have to dislike everybody that he has ever fought with to prove my loyalty. I am now friends with Byron and Uncle Jay and Brent Rueb and others too numerous to mention that Higgins has had trouble with, over the years. Maybe it's him, and not everybody else?

LB
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2011, 07:19 PM:
 
You are welcome, Dave. I know you want everybody to know how you feel about it. Just trying to help a friend.

GH/LB
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 01, 2011, 07:21 PM:
 
You're a fucker.. I'm laughing my ass off
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 01, 2011, 07:22 PM:
 
Yes Tom when it comes to coyotes I canbe selfish...

If the rancher wants you to thin out the coyotes have at it. As for the ranch you cleaned up on, did you go out at nite and howl to see or hear if any are around??? Pressured coyotes can go nocturnal on ya...

Bear: Does'nt youre wife hunt deer also???
My copy machine is broke but anyway there was a study done on coyotes down in the Rochester area a few years back. They cut open the stomachs of collared coyotes and also examined there scat and found that most if not all the coyotes collared only consumed deer that had been dead already and rabbits, mice and so on. There was no sign of them feeding on or killing fawns.. It can happen I know in other places but not around here so much... Over-hunting is the major problem and being hit by cars...
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 01, 2011, 07:34 PM:
 
Yes Leonard I can for you...

Tim, I did go out and locate, asked the guys who were feeding if they'd seen or heard any, nada.

I'm sure I didn't remove them all, I have hunted this place on and off for years, it fills in quick.

We had a place East of here (Noble Foundation) that was a wildlife study area used by Texas A&M. I worked with them on a trap. Anyway they did a study on coyotes vs. deer, didn't amount to much predation at all.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on June 01, 2011, 07:39 PM:
 

quote:

---

you sound and look more like JD every friggin' day. Tim is behaving himself and contributing, can you find it in your heart to quit being mean?

---

Now gawdammit!!! I've stayed out of this shit for a reason, a blind man could see this train wreck comin!!! And I have been very nice to t-bag lately! WTF!!

Also....it wouldn't hurt you guys to learn how to spell....Tim is spelled.....
t-bag
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 01, 2011, 07:47 PM:
 
Byron??????????????
Are you shittin me?????????
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2011, 07:54 PM:
 
JD, I could see it coming, minute 1. I really felt hornswoggled by and taken advantage of, by my own stupid policy, but I really try to be true to my convictions. And fair, which is a joke on me. How much self control do you think it took to refrain from commenting on his bullshit? A LOT.

I got an email from Fruit Loops telling me the whole thing was my fault for not agreeing to a little chit chat at his cabin along with, you know who.

gh/lb

edit: fer christsake, Jay! Can't you tell when I'm joking? edit: sorta

PS did you catch my use of cop lingo? Pretty dog gone kool, eh?

[ June 01, 2011, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 01, 2011, 08:00 PM:
 
Well then Tom youre getting it done then.. I believe I read that study awhile back..
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on June 01, 2011, 08:01 PM:
 
Cop lingo? I missed it.....did you use your command voice or call someone a motherfucker? You didn't shoot anybody...did you?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2011, 08:07 PM:
 
Nope, and I thought you were pretty sharp for a contractor? I said: "minute 1" which, ( have reason to believe, is cop lingo? Yes, no?

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 01, 2011, 08:13 PM:
 
I thought JD was one of the sharper tools in the drawer. "minute 1' my god JD??

You should be t-bagged!!

[ June 01, 2011, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on June 01, 2011, 08:16 PM:
 
I knew that. But Byron?????
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on June 01, 2011, 08:30 PM:
 
Ohhh Damn, it was too obvious, "minute 1" of course.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2011, 08:58 PM:
 
Yes, siree, I knew it would not turn out well, minute 1.

It took quite a bit of nerve, on his part to invade this hallowed ground.

I have never given him any indication that I would be receptive to overtures, half hearted, blatant, sincere or, as in this case, transparently obvious self serving.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on June 01, 2011, 09:15 PM:
 
I was wondering aloud why you were so quiet over the weekend. I thought you may have gone on a holiday excursion to some remote, internet-less region.

I'd like to take this opportunity to invoke Rodney King's famous quote.

Is it OK if I remain friends (assuming) with both parties?
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on June 01, 2011, 09:45 PM:
 

quote:

---

There was no sign of them feeding on or killing fawns..

---

I really hope that you're trying to be funny right?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2011, 09:46 PM:
 
I already SAID, TWICE that it is okay, Jim.

Yes, you can be friends with Higgins, but, of course you will never hear the end of it, here.

gh/lb

Jimanez/a Higgins camp follower

Hey, that reminds me! I just learned the other day that Higgins invented the campout and Boy am I grateful! I owe him so much, I don't know how I will ever repay him? Then I mistreat him by rejecting his peace offering.

[ June 01, 2011, 09:52 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on June 01, 2011, 10:26 PM:
 
OK OK OK OK OK i got it here's the solution Higgins agrees to make me a howler, Leonard agrees to pay my way to come to next years campout as long as i bring Cal everyones happy and we can move on....DEAL?.....no seriously..DEAL?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 01, 2011, 11:23 PM:
 
You are asking the wrong person, Dude.

Dan, (the man) has more money than brains and is always looking for worthy projects to advance his reputation as the Daddy Warbucks of the predator hunting community. Just ask our friend Higgins.

I'm sure he will pay your expenses and I'm surprised that you don't already have a Higgins Howler! You don't need to ask, good old Rich always lurks here and will probably call you tomorrow. He's like Johnny Appleseed, makes howlers for everybody.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on June 02, 2011, 12:48 AM:
 
UUUHHHHMMMM Dan any comment?.....no seriously what do you think?....LOL! OK if "everyone is getting howlers" by god mine better be in the mail.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 02, 2011, 01:02 AM:
 
Be sure to ask for 14k gold, no crummy chromium cobalt, which mine is and shows you what he thinks of me.

gh/lb

cadmium cobalt? I forget?

edit: I halfway expect him to ask for mine back.

[ June 02, 2011, 01:03 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on June 02, 2011, 06:41 AM:
 
Higgins knows more about coyotes than the entire membership of some forums.

I don't know him, never met him nor spoke to him. But I've read some of what he has written. If you look past the soap opera squabbles, the man knows coyotes extremely well.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 02, 2011, 08:13 AM:
 
"I don't know him, never met him nor spoke to him. But I've read some of what he has written. If you look past the soap opera squabbles, the man knows coyotes extremely well."
----------------------------------------
Semp,
If you mean he is good at reciting words from various "scientific" studies, I guess maybe you are correct.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 02, 2011, 09:46 AM:
 
Yeah, nobody ever disputed his knowledge, but he is such a Drama Queen!

Priorities. He has tremendous knowledge of coyotes, but knows next to nothing about automobiles.

What he needs is a hunting rig. Hint, hint, Dan! (the man)

I don't get it?

gh/lb

Is that friggin' Bronco with the blown head gasket still sitting behind the shop? I hope not?
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on June 02, 2011, 10:10 AM:
 
"Dan, (the man) has more money than brains and is always looking for worthy projects to advance his reputation as the Daddy Warbucks of the predator hunting community. Just ask our friend Higgins.

I'm sure he will pay your expenses and I'm surprised that you don't already have a Higgins Howler! You don't need to ask, good old Rich always lurks here and will probably call you tomorrow. He's like Johnny Appleseed, makes howlers for everybody.

gh/lb"

Now Leonard, you know I just barely have enough money to support my habits. Absolutely none to spare. I would pay everyone way the the campout if I could.

GH/DC
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 02, 2011, 11:43 AM:
 
Modest, as usual. Everybody knows, Dan. Trump comes to you when he is a little short on payroll, that's a fact.

gh/lb
 

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