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As the SWAT team forced its way into his home, Guerena, a former Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, armed himself with his AR-15 rifle and told his wife and son to hide in a closet

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If you're not actually a criminal and you wake up to the sound of armed men breaking into your home, your first thought isn't likely to be that you're being visited by the police. There may also have been something else on Guerena's mind: Last year, two of Vanessa Guerena's relatives were murdered by armed intruders. The intruders also shot the couple's children. What Guerena is alleged to have said -- "I've got something for you; I've gotten something for you guys" -- sounds damning if you assume he knew the men in his home were police, but there's nothing in that sentence indicating Guerena knew he was confronting cops. It also sounds like something a former soldier might shout out to intimidate armed intruders. And let's not forget, the same team of SWAT officers who reported hearing Guerena say those words also reported seeing a muzzle flash from Guerena's gun, which we now know couldn't have happened.

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When they entered the house, they meet up with a man who is pointing a gun at them. The Police were within their rights to shoot the man

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The Police had a search Warrant. When they entered the house, they meet up with a man who is pointing a gun at them. The Police were within their rights to shoot the man.

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yeah 49, that one still bothers me)

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Here's some flack. Years ago I had a disgruntled ex of I girl I was seeing kick in my front door armed with a .22 belt buckle deringer. Just as the door gave up I came down the hallway with a .44 magnum. Reality quickly set in for the intruder and he put his gun in his pocket and surrendered. When the cops showed up they were behind cover with weapons drawn and trained. I came out with 1 hand raised, the Dirty Harry special in the other at my side. I followed their instructions and didn't get shot. Guess I'm just lucky.

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I'm wondering if maybe the cops could have just waited until the guy left for work, and than pulled him over at the first stop sign, etc. ? Easy access to the house then also

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I was editing when you posted........have you stopped a murder by kicking a door........or a rapist? My guess is that 99.9 percent of those cases are dealt with after the fact.....I aint buying

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Though I don't think you are seeing my point. Considering the apprehension of a dangerous criminal, like a murderer or rapist after the fact, would you not concede that breaking down the door would be a safer option for the officers?

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Pack mentality rules the day in these situations.....just like it always does.

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"Dan, if a bunch of guys in hoods broke my door down, I would be inclined to fire on them myself. The question still remains, did the decedent know they were cops before he pointed a weapon at them?"

OK, show us your proof he pointed the AR at the cops.

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THEY WERE NOT JUSTIFIED. The whole operation stinks.

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THEY WERE NOT JUSTIFIED. The whole operation stinks.

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Concerning a SWAT team being called to administer a search warrant this is absolutely the whole in a nutshell. What happened inside the residence is what we will probably never know truthfully.

I have a great respect for most LEO's but there are times they do go overboard and become wild west Texas Ranger in some situations. The fact that one wrong door had already been knocked down and that multiple high level units were involved suggests a complete screw up on some very high levels.

This could easily have been any citizen, even you or I, or even a family member at the end of that hall simply raising a hand. The mentality of overpowering force is a sure indicator that intent was given by those in charge.

I'm with Leonard, put me on the jury!

Nikonut

edit for spelling...

[ May 28, 2011, 02:15 AM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 28, 2011, 02:18 AM:
 
Nikon I don't disagree with you at this point. A SWAT team seems to be overkill.

Though again, we don't yet have all the facts.
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on May 28, 2011, 02:28 AM:
 
I'll add here that I don't think any LEO goes into a situation like that thinking,"I'm going to kill anyone that moves."

Self preservation is a big part of any such scenario like this... both for the LEO's and citizen.

Just yelling,"Police" and then kicking in a door gives no time for a citizen to react responsibly in the presence of officers. This procedure should only be used in the most dire situations.

Nikonut
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on May 28, 2011, 02:32 AM:
 
I'll also agree we need more info and what was on the search warrants. How and what and who helped obtain them will be very telling.

Nick, you guys have a very tough and dangerous job... I feel for ya buddy!

Nikonut
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 28, 2011, 06:59 AM:
 
Thanks Nikon.

Well, more information is coming out:

http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/article_087950ff-b798-5fc2-baba-37c7c7d9fd6b.html

Also, this was my one glocktalk post on this so far:

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The helmet cams on the first two or three SWAT guys will be the determining factor on good / bad shoot.

Edit: Going on MLRoak's thought, I too would be interested to know if there were gang affiliations, or personal agenda on why the decedent would pick up a rifle at his wife's alarm. Was he suspecting someone other than cops

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why did the decedent pick up an AR if he thought cops were outside his house? From the wife's statements, she saw the commotion outside and woke him. The first things the decedent did were to hide his wife and child in the closet and grab a weapon.

Perhaps there was some post traumatic stress syndrome going on in his head? Maybe due to his wartime experiences he just reacted?

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what a tease. Who?

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Some of you guys need to go reed the articles

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I'm still not ready to pronounce the guy a "fucking turd", but the worm has started to turn

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You'll find any Dan Carey from Florence, AZ are me.....

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I am really starting to wonder...if the decedent's family had ties with crime, as the above article suggests, the decedent may have grabbed his rifle thinking he was protecting his family from rival gangs, or those that would do his family harm. This might explain the reason why he chose not to fire, in that instead of MS13 coming through his front door, there were cops dressed in SWAT gear.

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Good grief, I was thinking the same thing as you 49, and that is scaring the crap out of me.

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Now that is funny Dan.
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 28, 2011, 12:07 PM:
 
I just watched the video and was struck by two things.
1 the siren that was turned on after they arrived at the house sounded more like a car alarm than a police siren. They need a bigger, badder siren that gets attention.
2 After the initial barrage of 70 rounds there is an almost 2 second delay(I counted)before a single gunshot.
What was that? A coup de grace?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 28, 2011, 12:11 PM:
 
Ditto. Me too!

They appear to have some extenuating circumstances, but at this point, I'm beyond the kill. I want to know about these policies in place that serve search warrants by a whole team of SWAT. It appears they have not learned a thing by Ruby Ridge and Waco?

But, I guess we will find that the entry team was fully justified in hosing the guy down, mainly because we will never learn all the factors that triggered the shooting. It still seemed like a very compressed period of time between walking up to the door and hearing a bunch of shots.

gh/lb

ps

So, Dan, (the man) is the only Carey in Florence? There is great comfort in knowing that.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 28, 2011, 12:28 PM:
 
Some of you guys must be on crack Wheres all this "new info" about Jose? The guys brother was dirty but Jose Guerrena(sp) was as clean as a whistle and gainfully employed....they found NOTHING in his house.......if you read carefully there was anther Jose whos house was raided where they found almost all of the evidence in these raids..........Jose G was supposedly associated with this mess but I would beg to differ considering his lack of record and evidence......he was unfortunate enough to have a turd for a brother who was related through marriage to another turd also named Jose.....the death squad boys were not approaching a house where they suspected an armed drug dealer and human trafficker........that crap was all added to the mix later

49......are you trying to tell me that the death squad sat in front of that house for several minutes smoking and joking before they hit the siren.......not......they just pulled up and bailed out....they're a death squad not salesmen.
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 28, 2011, 12:32 PM:
 
"It appears they have not learned a thing by Ruby Ridge and Waco?"

Yes they did, they learned they can kill American citizens just because they don't do what some fuckin cop told them to do.

They killed Bonny and Clyde as they were driving down the road. They have been killing people from the beginning of them and us.

The use of deadly force needs to be revisited by the lawmakers and restricted to use on major felons only.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 28, 2011, 12:33 PM:
 

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After the initial barrage of 70 rounds there is an almost 2 second delay(I counted)before a single gunshot.
What was that? A coup de grace?

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2 After the initial barrage of 70 rounds there is an almost 2 second delay(I counted)before a single gunshot.
What was that? A coup de grace?

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49......are you trying to tell me that the death squad sat in front of that house for several minutes smoking and joking before they hit the siren.......not......they just pulled up and bailed out....they're a death squad not salesmen.

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I am telling you that the wife saw them and got her husband. At least that is how it is said in some of the articles I read.

Now, do me a favor and stop looking at me like I am the enemy. Have a little faith in your friends and acquaintances, as the case may be. I am trying to give the decedent the benefit of the doubt, though it is getting more and more difficult to do as information comes out. You talk about "us vs. them" but some of you guys are just as guilty in this respect as the cops you speak of.

It sounds like you need another therapy session with Dr. 49.

[ May 28, 2011, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 28, 2011, 02:46 PM:
 

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Jiminaz........that's the "new info".......that's the article that I referenced when I claimed that Jose is as clean as a whistle, you guys got your Jose's mixed up.....ALL the evidence was found in the house of Jose Celaya....our boy with no record and NOTHING in his house but his own dead body in the hallway is named Jose Guerena.

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They killed Bonny and Clyde as they were driving down the road.

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[QUOTE] Clearing the chamber.... [/QUOTE
Which resulted in bullet hole number 22.

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2 After the initial barrage of 70 rounds there is an almost 2 second delay(I counted)before a single gunshot.
What was that? A coup de grace?

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You can't say when the wife knew the cops were outside JD. She could have seen them setting up two or three minutes earlier. We just know when the LE sounded the alarm.

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49......are you trying to tell me that the death squad sat in front of that house for several minutes smoking and joking before they hit the siren.......not......they just pulled up and bailed out....they're a death squad not salesmen.

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I am telling you that the wife saw them and got her husband. At least that is how it is said in some of the articles I read.

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Exactly!! They pulled up, hit the siren, she looked out the window and saw people with guns and yelled at him to get up at which time he did and stumbled around the corner still asleep and was promptly murdered.

As far as the houses being associated or linked......it was his brother.....that one doesn't really require a PHD to figure out.

They found nothing in his house....that was their initial report....did they make a mistake? Was there something there after all that they mysteriously missed on the first pass through.

What would they find in your house that would make you a turd....?

I knew you would eventually make a decent detective if you listened to me.

It will be interesting to follow the smear campaign that will follow over the next few weeks.

BTW.....I don't think you're the enemy.

[ May 28, 2011, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 28, 2011, 05:35 PM:
 

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BTW.....I don't think you're the enemy.

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As far as the houses being associated or linked......it was his brother.....that one doesn't really require a PHD to figure out

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I heard that myself and wondered about it Rich. It could be an AD. A coup de grace would have been pretty stupid of them knowing they were on camera and all.

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How often do ADs occur in a SWAT operation?

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Jiminaz........that's the "new info".......that's the article that I referenced when I claimed that Jose is as clean as a whistle, you guys got your Jose's mixed up.....ALL the evidence was found in the house of Jose Celaya....our boy with no record and NOTHING in his house but his own dead body in the hallway is named Jose Guerena.

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evidence taken from 4 homes

Records show investigators took evidence from each of the four homes on the day of the raid:

• 9:33 a.m., Jose Guerena's house, 7100 block of South Redwater Drive. SWAT team members announce themselves, then knocked open the front door. Shots are fired and Jose is killed. His wife, Vanessa, and their 4-year-old son were not shot.

No drugs or large amounts of cash were found inside Jose Guerena's home, but detectives seized a Colt .38-caliber handgun, paperwork, tax returns including one with Jose and Graciela Celaya's name, insurance papers, bank statements and a bank card, reports show. Another report said detectives found body armor in a hallway closet and a U.S. Border Patrol hat in the garage.

• 9:33 a.m., Jose and Graciela Celaya's house, 6200 block of West Oklahoma Street. Most of the cash and drugs that detectives seized were found here, where Alejandro Guerena's wife, Pauline, and child were found, along with Graciela Celaya, two unidentified women and another child.

Pauline Guerena let detectives inside the home, where they found a large shoebox under a bed containing about $94,000, a bag of marijuana in the stove, ammunition, an AK-47 rifle, other guns and bulletproof vests. Seven vehicles were found at the residence and drug-sniffing dogs alerted officers to the smell of narcotics on most of the vehicles.

While investigators were searching the home, Alejandro Guerena arrived, records show. He was detained but not arrested.

• 12:57 p.m., Bertha Guerena's house, 5500 block of South Lemon Tree Drive. No one home. An officer wrote in his report that the front door of this house was "incredibly hardened" so SWAT officers had to break a glass door in the back to enter. He described the house as a "storage house" for furniture with no signs of occupancy. Dressers, couches and other furniture were wrapped in green plastic, according to records.

There were no drugs, cash or guns found in this house, according to reports, but an identification card for Pauline Celaya was found inside.

The listed owner for this property is Bertha Guerena.

• 1 p.m., Jose and Graciela Celaya's house, 7400 block of West Illinois Street. No one at home. Before the raid, surveillance officers saw two people carrying two suitcases, a black bag and a large-screen TV next door. Officers found a stolen vehicle, according to the records, and several two-way radios, chargers and a cellphone in a dump truck on the property.

Also in the dump truck, an officer detected the "distinct odor of decaying flesh," according to his report. He called a second officer to the area and they both agreed the smell was that of decaying flesh and was coming from the carpet in the trash, the report says. No body parts were found.

Three weeks before the raids, deputies were called to this address by a landscaper saying there were men with guns on the property. When deputies arrived, they found the doors to the home open and a puddle of blood on the floor, records show. Deputies did not find anyone inside, but they found traces of marijuana and a holster next to bloody footprints leading out of the home.

The registered owners of the house are Jose Celaya and Graciela Celaya.

No criminal record

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If that's the case, I'm moving to Mexico where all I have to deal with is drug cartels.

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that the information is not true, and there is the fact that I'm not current or former LE and may see the world through rose colored glasses.

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49, you are just about the only one that keeps harping about the wife seeing SWAT and telling her husband. Is this from direct interview with the wife, or more fluff from a L.E. source

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Once an officer decides to cover for his brother in uniform he is no longer doing his duty he swore too but rather he is no better than any other hood breaking the law. We do need to make the officers accountable in cases like this so in the future others will question there higher ups and info given. We held the Nuremburg trials after WW2 to hold individuals accountable for their actions, “just following orders was not a defense.”
I am sure there have been many, many American citizens murdered this way through the years but nothing was said because they had a criminal record or did have drugs in the house and there was no outcry.

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As we all know the facts are we all see things a little different, so in theory if they all have the same story then we know it is a lie. If none of the officers there come forward and tell the truth of what happened it will just prove there were all crooked cops there that day.

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I have 2 questions. (1) Have they said why they suspected the dead guy was involved in a home invasion crew? (2) Why would you serve a warrent on a suspects house if you do not plan on arresting the person on the spot?

I am just asking because reports say no arrest were planned.

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Here is what News 13 in Tucson wrote:

Vanessa Guerena was in her son's room, she says, when she saw a man outside pointing a gun at her.

"I was yelling 'Jose, Jose, somebody's here. Wake up, wake up!' so he can hear because the door was closed."

26-year-old Jose Guerena, a Tucson native and former Marine, jumped up and asked what was wrong. When his wife told him, he grabbed an assault rifle and told her to stay in their son's room.

"The only thing he told me, the last thing he told me - Vani, go into the closet with the kid. Go!"

So that's what she did with their 4-year-old son.

It was the last time she saw her husband of nearly nine years alive.

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The story should relate to the facts as to what actually had occurred. They SHOULD be the same, or very close to being the same.

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“The helmet cams will be the deciding factor though. Are we all in agreement here?”

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They have already changed a few times. “Suspect was shooting” “Muzzle flashes” ETC..

They/some have already lied and retracted what happened already. Now let’s see if the brotherhood mentality stops anyone from coming forward with at least who lied and who followed along with said lie.

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49 keep in mind I aint against you as a person but question Cops as a whole

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Thank you. One of the guys at work loaned me one of your DVD's to watch a while back, by the way. Good stuff..

[ May 29, 2011, 07:16 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 29, 2011, 07:56 AM:
 
Let me be clear to our readers.

Many search warrants after being served LEAD to arrests. A search warrant is a LEGAL fishing license. WHEN you make the catch, YOU show everyone what you caught. YOU get to brag if you like. AND you don't wait 2 weeks to do it.

Better to start the "SPIN" immediately versus attempting to do it when folks start CALLING bullshit on YOU.

Hmmm, YA THINK anyone would have been arrested if they found DOPE in the houses? If the cops had found a ton of weed along with the money, cell phones,armor vests, guns, I THINK there would have been a photo ops for all despite the shooting.

An excellent opportunity for the PROPOGANDA freaks to PAINT a picture that ALL involved were TURDS. WE have all seen the photo ops after the BIG ARREST. NOT in this case.

We have seen LIMITED information released.

Mis-information, is that the same as Hillary Clinton mis-speaking when she once said after getting off the plane she was fired upon by snipers, then later it was CONFIRMED that never happened. I think that was one of her trips to Iraq awhile back. Guess she felt it important to tell everyone she understands the peril of combat,

WHEN a major piece of mis-information like we see in this case quoted from several news articles ie, "the Marine fired upon SWAT Officers", then later "the weapon was found to be on safe" is not mis-information, it appears to me more of a LIE than a mistake.

It was not members of the general public who made the comments about the shooting, it was the cops standing at the front door.

NO ONE has thus far explained that "mis-information"

Gee based on my experience in such issues, I must now wonder if the cops deciding to lawyer up happened to be around the time the "mis-information" was exposed?

It appears by the information NOW being released the cops want us to believe THEY were going after the BIG FISH and the Marine was part of the BIG OPERATION. OKAY!!!!

JUST ONE big problem. The SWAT guys serve the search warrant in a manner NOT CONSISTANT with going after a KNOWN dangerous wanted member of the CARTEL.

THOSE paying attention like I am to what is going on down in Mexico, YOU will know that the CARTEL DOES NOT hesitate to take on ANYONE!!! The CARTEL shoots Mexican Marines like we shoot quail.

So why would SWAT team members knock on the door and handle the Marines house like we CLEARLY saw in the brief video?

I wonder if the Mexican Marines who go after Cartel members go up to the front door and knock first after they turned their sirens on for a few seconds?
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 29, 2011, 08:05 AM:
 
After seeing and hearing the "he reached for his waistband", "made affirtive movements" for the last couple decades, I wonder if EVERY doper is now going to be linked to the CARTEL?
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 29, 2011, 08:17 AM:
 
It is my feeling that we should allow people to decide for themselves, based on the facts, as they trickle out.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 29, 2011, 08:58 AM:
 
Let me share a story on what ONE does when folks start screaming MURDER if possible!! LB might remember this incident since it took place in San Bernardino California in about 2002.

A San Bernardino County Deputy makes a car stop on a subject. Before the cop makes it up to the car he is shot in the leg by the crook. The crook takes off.

No less than a hundred cops,helicopters respond to the "officer needs help call". As you can well imagine it was an extensive manhunt. Thanks to alert citizens the crook is found hiding in a back yard nearby and is taken into custody.

The crook is taken to Sheriff's Headquarters and put into an interview room. THANK GOD this interview room has an excellent camera and audio set up.

Here is what happened.

This is what broke the news channels. The crook is shot and killed by the police while in custody. OH MY the shit hit the fan MUCH quicker than in the case we are talking about here. The public went nuts. But only for a short while.

There was absolute pandimonium going on at Sheriff's Headquarters. EVERYONE especially the brass was running around like chickens with their heads cut off. FUNNY to watch from what my Captain told me since he happened to be there when it happened.

What did the video show.

You can CLEARLY see in the interview room. YOU see the Deputy bring the suspect into the room, where the suspect is met by a Homicide Sergeant and Homcide Detective.

They take the cuffs off him. The Sergeant introduces himself to the suspect. NICE guy stuff. I think the suspect asks for some water and they get him a bottle of water.

The Sergeant says to go ahead and sit down they are going to leave and will come back shortly and talked with him.

All the cops leave. I can't recall if the crook sat down or stayed standing up. The suspect looks nervous,scared etc.

He takes a sip of water, looks around, reaches down into the front of his pants, PULLS out a full size Colt 1911 45 ACP and shoots himself in the head, blows his brains all over the wall. IT was VERY graphic.

The Homicide Sergeant comes running in, all you can hear him say repeatedly is, "oh my god", "oh shit", "oh fuck".

What happened on the street as we all found out later was, NOT one but TWO cops who searched this guy FAILED to reach up into the guys crouch and check for weapons. THAT simple.

The Sheriff at the time Gary Penrod who is a crook in real life not bright, but THIS TIME made a command decision to quell the kaos and told EVERYONE to shut up and relax.

The video could not be released to the public because it was just too graphic.

Penrod got a hold of 3 news reporters from the major stations, brought them into a conference room.

He told the reporters what happened, then showed them the video. Each reporter on TV reported what they had seen and told everyone it could not be released because it was to graphic.

They told the public that the cops DID NOT shoot the suspect he clearly killed himself because of a mistake made after he was taken into custody.

Of course some in the public did not let go of the STUPID neglegent issues on the matter of the search. BUT the murder accusations quickly went away. As I recall in about 12 hours from the actual incident.

The Sheriff decided not to play the WE ARE conducting an investigation at this time, I cannot comment at this time.

He grabbed the bull by the horn and stopped the madness in it's tracks.

SMART MOVE!!!

A few months later the video found it's way onto the internet by mysterious means. It may still be out there. I watched it several times, I'd have said exactly what the Homicide Sergeant said too!!

[ May 29, 2011, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 29, 2011, 08:59 AM:
 
YES 49 I agree, and I think they are.
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 29, 2011, 09:00 AM:
 
Here's a WAG, the siren was one one the cops fucking up and was not planned. The swat team serving the warrant was strictly for the news media's use after the raid on the cartel. What a bunch of fuckin liars and incompetent assholes they are.

All too often we are seeing the cops becoming the judge and jury. I have seen more than enough abuse of power even on the show "cops" where the cops chase some kid down the freeway until he finally stops and then they proceed to jerk him out of the car and stand on his neck for a while. That is nothing less than the cops dispensing street justice.
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 29, 2011, 09:07 AM:
 
You can take the bull by the horns when you have nothing to hide. You use the "we are conduction an investigation" when you do.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 29, 2011, 09:27 AM:
 
For the most part Dan your correct at least correct enough to make the statement.

It comes down to not only street cops, but their bosses being VERY transparent when things like this happen. FROM the get go.

Depending on where you work at, the pendulum has swung back the other way, and cops get thrown under the bus just so some politician wearing a badge can save his ass.

The cops have done nothing wrong, but some leaders just throw their guys to the wolfs in order to keep Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton off their ass.

But I won't sit here when red flags start popping up on some VERY bad initial statements made by the cops, and attempt to direct attention away by continuing to say "the wife saw the cops coming, the guy seems to be a turd etc etc.

Among the other very obvious information that I seen myself.

Time will tell if Sheriff Dupnik is either going to stand behind what his guys did, or will throw one or more cops under the bus because of the heat.

[ May 29, 2011, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 29, 2011, 09:39 AM:
 
I've watched that helmet cam video several times and have to note how rinky dink the operation seemed to be. Everything looked okay up to the point where they approached to pop the door. At that point, half the officers were in the field of fire, once the door opened, no one seemed to make any real effort to go secure their position. In fact, it appears that the door went open and everyone kind of stood up and milled around in front of the open door and right into the field of fire. Then, one of them sees the threat, opens fire and the line up, two rows high, and start dumping mags. Finally, one lone gunman fires a last, parting shot and everything stops.

Now, I'm not a SWAT tactician by any means, but I've watched our KHP entry team and our drug task force do that stuff and it goes nothing like these so-called "pros" did it. At least we country bumpkins perform the execution (of the plan) before the gunfire starts (of the turd).

I would think that the voters of Pima County would really want to look at recalling this Sheriff, or finding someone to replace him ASAP because he seems to be a huge liability exposure.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 29, 2011, 09:51 AM:
 
Dan I can tell you for a FACT that if I was one of those guys at the front door of that Marines house, told the Homicide Detectives he fired at us and they found his gun on safe, SHIT would happen when there was no other physical evidence to support my statement.

HOW the fuck do you have a "good faith belief" you got shot at, when the turds gun is on safe, no spent casings laying next to him, NO FREAKIN bullets holes near where your standing, with bullets to match the ballistics of the turds gun. OOPS!!!

Oh shit I know what we can do now, WE can say in addition to that fuck up, he pointed his gun at us, and he said "I got something for you". YES that will work.

I would have been confronted with the OBVIOUS lack of physical evidence, then they would see what else I had to say, and give me plenty of rope to hang myself.

But if my department is somewhat corrupt, or someone believes in the "brotherhood" I'd be allowed to re-think my initial statement.

If the bosses never liked me I'd hang just for those statements. If I was someone's fair haired boy or related to a high ranking official, the homicide investigator MIGHT just never write down my FIRST OFFICIAL statement.

I have personally seen every possible way of handling the problem at least ONCE in my career.

This situation may HONESTLY come out all in favor of the cops. BUT I don't think so at first glance.

That's why if Dupnik was a smart Sheriff he would have just asked for the FBI to come into the investigation and let the chips fall where they may.

Sheriff's won't do that if they are trying to protect one or more people in a potential scandal.

They know if the liability pay out is going to be to much, the Board of Supervisor's and other politician will want their head on a platter. Not always but in some cases.

And for any cop who is WORTH his salt, been there done that, would know when the red flags start popping up, it is time to lawyer up.

The intial statements by the Sheriff's Department may have been in good faith initially, but when they got caught in a perceived lie, they circle the wagons.

They are NOW doing what I have seen many times, BUT the guy we killed is a turd.

If ANY cop says that ain't so, THEY are liars or they worked for Mayberry RFD and should simply be quiet or be made to look the fool and naive idiots they are.

YOU can't side step shit if you have been a cop for a long time working for a big agency.

But one might be able to say they have been wearing BLINDERS all their career. Could be true, myself I think it is by design.

Of course you can only say that if you know what your talking about. I don't. I am just making this shit up as I go along.

I enjoy setting myself up so someone else with a badge who can come in here and do a TA17 on me.

Working on getting back at Predator Master to try and take Mock's job, bring in business for the organization and prove my salesmanship and obtain my Masters in BULLSHIT!!!

How am I doing so far??? Redfrog can I please come back???

[ May 29, 2011, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 29, 2011, 10:27 AM:
 
For those reading wishing to see for themselves about cover up, go check out Sheriff Joe in Phoenix.

READ all the articles. Seems his OWN are starting to talk.

Of course when Captains,Deputy Chiefs start speaking up YOU know things are real bad.

Of course they too will be labeled as disgruntled employees and they too don't know what the hell they are talking about.

Reading those articles YOU can clearly see how Sheriff Joe covered for a LONG time his 2nd in command who was nothing but a hatchet man.

Sheriff Joe spent and took $99 million bucks out of two seperate funds he LEGALLY could not touch to built his own secret police to go screw with folks the Sheriff didn't like.

TOO much evidence floating around to make ALL of it go away.

I liked Sheriff Joe too!!!

[ May 29, 2011, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 29, 2011, 10:29 AM:
 
This is fairly close and interesting to me.

Sheriff Joe's doing some cleaning up

Just arresting some other turds

[ May 29, 2011, 10:34 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2011, 10:29 AM:
 
You know what? I agree with Lance. That clusterfuck at the front door is almost laughable. If every SWAT team conducted a search warrant that way, most would not turn out well.

These guys look stupid. No wonder things went to hell in a hand cart. I also think it is possible the siren was an "OOPS".

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 29, 2011, 10:50 AM:
 
Yes DanS, I'd like to point out that Mob Boss John Gotti cleaned his house often.

They are sleeping with the FISH!!!!

Sheriff Joe like anyone else will throw a few to the wolfs to keep up appearances, ESPECIALLY if outside agencies are involved or watching.

Even crooks have friends, they can be cool to hang out with. Sometimes they do things legally too.

But if your a turd in a big way, some will say your ALWAYS a turd.

[ May 29, 2011, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 29, 2011, 11:42 AM:
 
49, I don't know how you and I can read the same exact thing and see it so differently. I think you're delusional

quote:

---

Vanessa Guerena was in her son's room, she says, when she saw a man outside pointing a gun at her.

"I was yelling 'Jose, Jose, somebody's here. Wake up, wake up!' so he can hear because the door was closed."

26-year-old Jose Guerena, a Tucson native and former Marine, jumped up and asked what was wrong. When his wife told him, he grabbed an assault rifle and told her to stay in their son's room.

"The only thing he told me, the last thing he told me - Vani, go into the closet with the kid. Go!"

So that's what she did with their 4-year-old son.

It was the last time she saw her husband of nearly nine years

---

quote:

---

If ANY cop says that ain't so, THEY are liars or they worked for Mayberry RFD and should simply be quiet or be made to look the fool and naive idiots they are.

YOU can't side step shit if you have been a cop for a long time working for a big agency.

---

quote:

---

JD, Leonard asked me for that information. I posted it for your benefit as well. Do as you like with it. As far as I am concerned, there is no proof of when the wife saw the cops outside and woke up her husband.

---

quote:

---

dont care what they say........that was NOT enough time for someone to answer the door.....totally unacceptable behavior on more than one level

---

He didn't answer the door. He crouched down the hallway with his rifle. That is what all accounts have said so far, if we can believe the media. Nothing ever mentioned him answering the door.

Have fun guys. I will remain objective.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2011, 02:50 PM:
 
49, he did not mean to infer that the guy answered the front door.

He is observing that the length of time made available for him to answer the door was totally inadequate.

When something like that happens, it is easy to understand why he barely made it to the hallway in time to get hosed.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 29, 2011, 03:04 PM:
 
Well okay then Leonard, I can understand that.

The problem was though, instead of walking down the hallway to the front door to answer it, he showed up in the hallway with a rifle.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2011, 03:08 PM:
 
49, you are still in the lock and load mindset. Holding a rifle in your own hallway is not signing your own death warrant.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 29, 2011, 03:17 PM:
 
You are correct Leonard. Pointing a rifle at a bunch of cops, unfortunately is, if that is in fact what happened.

Again, I am willing to be objective and wait for the helmet cams.

[ May 29, 2011, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 29, 2011, 03:27 PM:
 
LB just obey the commands, then complain later. YOU anti cops are going to get whacked.

YOU will be a turd either way because the cops are NOT going to thank you for bitching off one of their own even though they might be wrong.

And if you tape recorded the situation to show your telling the truth, then someone will find out you have traffic tickets or a drunk in public you will be labeled a trouble maker.

Don't think a Chief or Sheriff has ever posed with a citizen on the front page of any newspapers in recent memory honoring them for bringing forth an issue of misconduct on their officers. BUT I COULD have missed that Kodak moment.

As to to one Sheriff being SMART and releasing a tape versus another who chooses not too, YEA no kidding!!!!Glad you pointed that out 49.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 29, 2011, 03:40 PM:
 
So 49 I think I missed where you mentioned the name of your department and the number of coppers on that department some where early on? Sorry about that
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 29, 2011, 04:05 PM:
 
Is there something in cop school that makes it hard for you to understand how innocent citizens function in any given situation 49?

Follow me here.....Cops sound siren, while meandering to the house, a couple cops yell something that can't be heard very well, while this is happening the wife spots someone outside her window with a gun....15 seconds are gone.....she screams....JOSE!!! get up there's someone in the yard with a gun, Jose jumps up and yells "get in the closet", he then heads for his rifle......30 seconds are now gone.........Jose grabs the rifle as he hears the front door being kicked and someone yelling as he comes around into the hallway with rifle in hand.......only in a split second of confusion caused mostly by the fact that he was violently woke up from a slumber he swears that he sees cops standing in his hallway....so he hesitates.....doesn't even click the safety off.......poor bastard didn't stand a chance.

These things CAN be substantiated by watching the clock and reading the already released reports.

Here it is......watch the clock and see if you could even make it to your own hallway with a gun in your hand in 30 seconds from a sleep.

Murderous bastards gunning down an innocent citizen.

[ May 29, 2011, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 29, 2011, 04:06 PM:
 
I don't believe I did mention it Ken.

Some of the guys here are aware of what agency I work for, or at least I think they figured it out.

What does it matter though? If I worked for a small department, would that have made my contributions less valid?
 

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Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on May 29, 2011, 04:06 PM:
 

quote:

---

For me.......it would read very poorly in the public eye.... multiple semi auto ASSAULT RIFLES along with enough ammo to overthrow a third world govt. multiple hunting rifles, shotguns and several hand guns......that's in my closet....who knows what else they would dig up.....email addresses of radicals like LB......God forbid.

---

quote:

---

Follow me here.....Cops sound siren, while meandering to the house, a couple cops yell something that can't be heard very well, while this is happening the wife spots someone outside her window with a gun....15 seconds are gone.....she screams....JOSE!!! get up there's someone in the yard with a gun, Jose jumps up and yells "get in the closet", he then heads for his rifle......30 seconds are now gone.........Jose grabs the rifle as he hears the front door being kicked and someone yelling as he comes around into the hallway with rifle in hand.......only in a split second of confusion caused mostly by the fact that he was violently woke up from a slumber he swears that he sees cops standing in his hallway....so he hesitates.....doesn't even click the safety off.......poor bastard didn't stand a chance.

---

quote:

---

Like I said before a helmet cam will only show the guy may have had a gun pointed in there direction and given the circumstances he like most of us probably did. The true crime is in the Incompetence that created the chain of events and the way the warrant was executed.

---

quote:

---

This thread is a perfect example of a fact that I have known for many years. In a situation like the one we are talking about here, the Police had only a split second to make that decision to shoot. Now the citizens like us, the Lawyers and the Courts have MONTHS to decide whether or not the Police made the correct decision.

---

quote:

---

There are several criminals in this case, saying that you are staying objective wont change the CLOCK on the video....it only gives more time to paint Jose as a turd.

That's where I'm going with this.

---

quote:

---

In answer to your question about less valid NO!!

But I can tell you that with 24 plus patrol stations and a total of 45 stations in this County, covering populations from 200,000 people to 6,000 and everything in between it might effect ones experience if one is traversing from years at the 6,000 city population to the 200k.

One who's station handles 35 calls a day versus 450 calls a day, has difficulty adjusting to the volumn and work level.

Those who worked the busy stations become experienced much quicker in a broad spectrum of patrol, than those who choose to work the quieter stations.

The simple example is the bedroom community versus the ghetto. We have both in this county and our guys get a taste of it.

Kinda of like a homicide investigator who works maybe 3 or 4 murders a year versus the guy who does 35 or 40.

If I wanted to know about murder investigations I'd go to the guy who does the 40

---

quote:

---

This thread is a perfect example of a fact that I have known for many years. In a situation like the one we are talking about here, the Police had only a split second to make that decision to shoot. Now the citizens like us, the Lawyers and the Courts have MONTHS to decide whether or not the Police made the correct decision.

---

quote:

---

The only other question I can see was why was a SWAT team utilized in the first place.

---

That is THE question and the hinge point for the civil cases that will follow which will be the root of a smear campaign to turn Jose into an AR wielding turd.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 29, 2011, 06:23 PM:
 
BTW 49, the games that you accuse Ken of playing are the exact games that you played on myself and I believe Tom.......remember......"how many arrests have you made"........"how many people have you disarmed" as if our input had no bearing since we weren't cops......funny how that works both ways
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 29, 2011, 06:25 PM:
 
No JD. My questions to you guys were rhetorical.

Ken's questions are not. He presumed that since my agency does not have a large amount of corruption inherent to it that it was a smaller agency. He presumed wrong, and of course he should not be making presumptions toward someone he doesn't know. Where have we seen this before?
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 29, 2011, 06:29 PM:
 
I'm not hacking on you, really. Just takin a poke. I also didn't find your questions offensive at all. I don't know what Ken was getting at but I guess I didn't read that he was discrediting you. I could be wrong but I doubt it since I've never been wrong before.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 29, 2011, 06:35 PM:
 

quote:

---

I have an AR15 should they shoot me too? I have several assault rifles.....maybe they should go 2 blocks down the street and shoot my brother too. He has rifles also...hell shoot the whole fucking neighborhood up........see how ridiculous your reasoning sounds when played out. Having an assault rifle is just as legal as owning a lawnmower or a bicycle. Your thought process is scarey bro.

---

quote:

---

I think you answered my question on one issue. YOU work for a small department other wise you would have just PROUDLY stated who you worked for.

I am not going to spend my time trying to find out where you work, so I can research your department and then maybe you.

---

quote:

---

And yes 49, in the other thread you were questioning me and JD about our experience. In your mind since we weren't cops we couldn't know what we were talking about. I shared my experiences with the fuzz, how about you?

---

I thought I had given enough of my bio on the last thread LOL.

Here is a link to my agency's website.

http://www.njsp.org/

[ May 29, 2011, 11:44 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 29, 2011, 11:46 PM:
 
Here is a pic of me and my old squad.


 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 29, 2011, 11:49 PM:
 
Here are some pics of a scene I was the incident commander of. The incident was a driveby shooting in Dover, NJ. one of the suspects was believed to be hiding in one of these houses.






 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 29, 2011, 11:50 PM:
 
More pics:








 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 29, 2011, 11:51 PM:
 
Here is a pic of my dog in front of my patrol car. Since I made him sit there he thought he was in trouble Lol.


 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 29, 2011, 11:54 PM:
 
Here is a pic of one of my jack booted thugs (LOL) helping out a family on the side of I-80.






 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 29, 2011, 11:57 PM:
 
Here is a pic from our academy. The third guy in line was on my squad.


 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 30, 2011, 12:27 AM:
 
Now I think Lance was trying to make an off color joke in his post about the KHP not knowing anything once they got off asphalt, or whatever. Well, my agency would be more akin to the Kansas Bureau of Investigation and the Kansas Highway Patrol combined. We are a 'state police" and not a "highway patrol."

I have been present at, part of the investigation of, or directly investigating numerous shootings, stabbings, suicides, homicides, fatal accidents, serious motor vehicle accidents (death likely), rapes, arson, robbery, burglary, you name it.

I have been a supervisor since 2004. I no longer run a squad, because I was recruited to review tapes (now DIVR) of motor vehicle stops made by our guys in the north jersey troop. I look for among other things constitutional violations, law violations, safety issues, attitude and demeanor issues, and procedural violations. I didn't want this job because I preferred to stay with my squad. I turned it down the first time. The second time I was told it is never good to turn something down once, let alone twice, so I took the job. This job has put me at odds with some station commanders and the troops as well. It seems no one likes to be criticized. But on the whole, I still have friends and I am told that my reputation in this capacity is regarded me being fair with people in my actions. In the end, guys realize that is they who are responsible for their own actions, especially while on camera.

The above SWAT team has two guys on it who were trained by me as rookies. All the rookies I trained have gone on to specialist jobs like SWAT (here we call it TEAMS because it is a combined SWAT and dive team), and various detective positions. I am proud to say that all of the guys I trained have done well. I am even prouder to say that one of my trainees served in Iraq as a company commander, and was awarded a medal by General Petreaus.

Guys, I sincerely apologize if I come off as a braggart. This is not my intention, so please believe me. Being that my credibility has come into play here at Huntmasters, and my creds were asked for, this is my response.

There might be more, but I am not telling you guys anything else.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 30, 2011, 12:36 AM:
 
Cool pictures!!! Wish I had some I could post. Most of my memorable stuff is on video tape.

I will comment later on a number of issues.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 30, 2011, 01:15 AM:
 
OH NO, I don't think your a braggard. You should have posted this stuff a long time ago.

But because of where you work and the subject matter we talked about, the history of your department both the good and bad would set a better stage for understanding.

49 remember the questions I asked you about, regarding arresting and citing cops? My comments about the fact you work in New Jersey.

Read this website under the controversy section. A department under a Federal Decent Decree for 20 years is some heavy shit!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_State_Police

I am actually a little annoyed with some of your answers based on somethings contained on this website.

Remain opened minded as to why I might be. I am no dummy from Cow County either.

Did you think your integrity or credibility would go unchallenged on the internet? Seriously, this is 2011, everyone gets challenged.

TA17 started a little with me. I simply posted a link to a political blog that contains tons of information on the corruption within my former organization.

Challenge me, I can deal with it. Just go back and read my FIRST posting. I set the tone very clearly from Minute 1.

[ May 30, 2011, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 30, 2011, 01:50 AM:
 
Kodiak, good link dude. Someone sweating minor stuff and someone dies. Thanks for posting that.
 

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Posted by kodiak61 (Member # 3255) on May 30, 2011, 03:19 AM:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jUU3yCy3uI&feature=player_embedded

Here is another one.

Granted I think these guys are capital D douchebags. Yet it seems there biggest crime is "contempt of cop".

These protesters obviously present ZERO threat to any of the officers or their safety so why must they take out their anger on them? They were not Rodney King'd by any means but the hands on approach like present in that video is confusing to me. It seems that with and incident as petty as they are accused of committing common sense could have dictated a less physical approach to removing them.

I am making the stretch argument here that the above video example goes to show the general attitude that "many" law enforcement officers have nowadays when dealing with the public. This type of overreaction (in my humble opinion) goes to show how things can escalate when the perceived accused offense is much greater then dancing.

There are hundreds, if not thousands of these video's for your viewing pleasure (this is just one quick sampling I found)

http://www.youtube.com/user/CopsOutofControl

This is by no means a comparison of the millions of daily heroic and life saving positives stories of our good officers. So in the end what do we do?

I only know for sure that I don't have the answers.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 30, 2011, 04:53 AM:
 
I believe state police trump the sheriffs dept...

I think that explains a lot about you 49, thanks for clearing that up.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 30, 2011, 06:04 AM:
 

quote:

---

OH NO, I don't think your a braggard. You should have posted this stuff a long time ago.

But because of where you work and the subject matter we talked about, the history of your department both the good and bad would set a better stage for understanding.

49 remember the questions I asked you about, regarding arresting and citing cops? My comments about the fact you work in New Jersey.

Read this website under the controversy section. A department under a Federal Decent Decree for 20 years is some heavy shit!!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Jersey_State_Police

I am actually a little annoyed with some of your answers based on somethings contained on this website.

Remain opened minded as to why I might be. I am no dummy from Cow County either.

Did you think your integrity or credibility would go unchallenged on the internet? Seriously, this is 2011, everyone gets challenged.

TA17 started a little with me. I simply posted a link to a political blog that contains tons of information on the corruption within my former organization.

Challenge me, I can deal with it. Just go back and read my FIRST posting. I set the tone very clearly from Minute 1

---

Yes, we were in a consent decree but for 10 years, not 20, so your information source is already incorrect.

Due to hard work and due diligence we are now out of it. My agency's handling of its consent decree has served as a model for other agencies who have come under the same scrutiny. I was part of the solution.

One last thing..I stand by every post I made in this thread and the last.

[ May 30, 2011, 06:41 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 30, 2011, 08:15 AM:
 
Those videos are outrageous. Maybe they wouldn't have been manhandled by those fucking NAZI'S if they were black? OMG! That would happen to me because I would be mouthing off and the cops had ultimate power, and the inclination to abuse that power.

49, I hope you take this with a little humor, but? Those uniforms of the NJ State Police? My god, they are hopelessly outdated, Sam Brown, yellow stripe, contrasting epaulets, (I must have imagined them?) and a Buck Rogers shoulder patch. Weird patches on the lapels. 1925 time warp.

gh/lb

[ May 30, 2011, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 30, 2011, 08:39 AM:
 
49 I did a little reading. My comments about the decree were based on the date post, but ok 10 years. YES your department got after that stuff kudos.

I was going to say this crap hole down here should have been on one long before you guys were, and should still be on one. And the issues and label would be far uglier.

Yes I expect you to stand by whatever you said.

Just as I will, but I can modifie my position as infomation becomes available.

Bottom line, YOU know about corruption and the BULLSHIT things cops due and the sense of entitlement that some DUE and EXPECT because of the badge.

Since your area is far more densly populated and surrounded by densly populated states than me, I just do not believe YOU never came across corrupt cops. IF not from your own agency, others. YOU say what you want but the law of averages from that area will not convince me in 20 years you did not come across stupid stuff from your brothers in arms.

YOU may be clean as a whistle, but others are not. And especially if your big on traffic enforcement, one is going to be stopping fellow cops. And cops like to drive off the clock like they do on the clock.

IF you did not, then your were one of the luckiest badge carrying individual I ever met.

There are NO clean up efforts taking place down here at this time. So I am not nor will I attempt to bridge any gaps and try and explain the us vs. them stuff.

Maybe we should explain are definitions of corrupt to each other and bridge that?

TOM64, no argument from me.

Carry on!!!!!!!

[ May 30, 2011, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 30, 2011, 08:43 AM:
 
Nice pics, I enjoyed them..Hey Nick, regarding the pic of you're old squad, is that you all the way to the left ?

I agree with Toms post, I mentioned once I had dealings with LEO's in a previous job, the State Police were definately a "notch" above most others in my dealings, at least from my perspective.

Leonard, regarding those uniforms, ya gotta' remember these east coast guys also like "TreeBark" camo...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 30, 2011, 09:10 AM:
 
I think he's the portly one in the middle with the receding hairline. The older looking guy to the extreme right has buck sergeants stripes. Seems like a man with his squad, they would put him in the middle, but this is New Jersey we're talking about. 'Nuff said.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 30, 2011, 09:21 AM:
 
49,if you were part of the solution versus the problem as you state, GOOD for you. That would also tell me you pissed off some of your brothers too!!!

So your integrity or motives have been challenged by others long before I made reference to such. If not your brother coppers, at least the public.

So my comments are not your first RODEO on the topic at hand, or shouldn't be.

If we had met or worked together, and I said what I said, I'd expect you to be pissed and want a piece of my ass for my comments. If you still want some, come get some.

Any of your brothers ever get busy behind the barracks after work to resolve an issue in your day? OR do they just go have a beer and resolve it at the local bar and hug later or BOTH!!

These folks out here are cowboys and rednecks. You EAST coasters are hard headed and stubborn too, AND you talk funny!!!LOL!! Just a joke.

Unless I am again mistaken there is a stronger respect among coppers for each other back there than around here. Almost an immediate respect, I apologize if I am wrong.

Around here you may get a nod from the older ones, but until you have proven you can hold your MUD you keep your mouth shut!!! Play superman and talk shit, you get fucked with RIGHT NOW!!! ONE must pay his dues!!

If anyone thinks TA17 has gotten screwed with, trust me you ain't seen nothin,

Kudos though for your last few posts.

[ May 30, 2011, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 30, 2011, 09:30 AM:
 

quote:

---

49, I hope you take this with a little humor, but? Those uniforms of the NJ State Police? My god, they are hopelessly outdated, Sam Brown, yellow stripe, contrasting epaulets, (I must have imagined them?) and a Buck Rogers shoulder patch. Weird patches on the lapels. 1925 time warp.

---

quote:

---

Nice pics, I enjoyed them..Hey Nick, regarding the pic of you're old squad, is that you all the way to the left ?

---

quote:

---

Seems like a man with his squad, they would put him in the middle, but this is New Jersey we're talking about. 'Nuff said.

---

quote:

---

49,if you were part of the solution versus the problem as you state, GOOD for you. That would also tell me you pissed off some of your brothers too!!!

---

quote:

---

YOU may be clean as a whistle, but others are not. And especially if your big on traffic enforcement, one is going to be stopping fellow cops. And cops like to drive off the clock like they do on the clock.

---

Lets start with this. First of all, I thank you for acknowledging the fact that I at least "may" be as clean as a whistle. Yes, I am clean. I hold my own personal integrity in high regard. That is why I get so angry when it is questioned.

Yes, with 3000 officers, there have been some problems. Though, I think a few problems over the span of 10 or 20 years and spread over 3000 cops isn't too bad. It is definately not even close to the widespread corruption that you mention, or was present on NYPD in the Serpico days. I never said we were perfect, though. Most recently, our IAB has had to focus on drinking and driving with a couple of our guys (and one gal). It is pretty stupid to throw one's career away over alcohol, in my opinion.

So no, I have not seen the type of corruption you mention. I had no reason to turn my back on anything. If we mention the racial profiling issue, which was a political agenda brought upon us by black (African-American) ministers, which the governor ran with, then well yes, I saw some black and hispanic folks get arrested for possession of narcotics. Is this really corruption though? I mean, they had the drugs in their possession. I don't think it is profiling, or thus corrupt in ANY manner of speaking to arrest someone with narcotics. Do you think arresting someone of any race for drugs is corrupt? I don't think so. How about all the white guys I saw arrested? Does that not count for anything? You see, the ministers tried to paint a picture of us. I do admit though, we had two guys down in south jersey who admitted to racial profiling. They were fired, charged, and I believe if they admitted to the profiling they would have their sentences suspended. So yeah, there were problems in our less than perfect organization. But I am proud and happy to say that I never saw any real corruption. I don't think I could have worked where you worked Ken.
 

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Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on May 30, 2011, 10:23 AM:
 
That's an awesome mustache 49!!!!
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 30, 2011, 10:25 AM:
 
Disturbing. Thanks for getting my day off to a crappy start Kodiak.

What happened in many of those videos could easily happen to ANY/ALL of us depending on circumstances. I'm a guy who was raised to respect the badge. I want to believe that the guy behind it has my best interests at heart. I want to believe that they are really there to protect and serve. And I believe that the vast majority of them truly are. The contrast between the scenes in those videos and 49's pictures of the guy entertaining the little girl is stark.

I watch a cop show on TV and grimace every time I witness a beatdown administered by cops, who in between punches and kicks are shouting stop resisting. "Stop resisting" must be something taught at the academy as the carte blanche phrase to use as you and 4 other cops beat the shit out of someone because they didn't immediately comply. There are plenty of times a beating is warranted, but when the skell has obviously submitted, c'mon.

I was involved in an incident a while back that could easily have ended poorly for me. I was hunting in an area that I thought was legal but the city po-po thought was not. Honestly, I still think it's legal, but do not wish to be forced to prove it in a court of law, so I guess they win. Kinda like trespassing on a place that's not properly posted, not worth the effort to prove the point, to me anyway.

Anyhow, when I noticed the helicopter circling above me was marked as PD, they instructed me via PA to proceed to a nearby paved road. When I got there, 2 squad cars were waiting for me. As soon as I saw them I took my .45 out of the holster and put it on the dash. As I was stopping I reached for my wallet to get my ID. The cop closest to my window asked me to keep my hands where he could see them, so I did. There were 2 officers present at this time. One, who made first contact, was in his early 30s (#1), and the other, much younger, was a dweeby looking dork (#2). You know, the one who got his lunch money stolen and was pissed on in the shower after PE by the "cool" kids.

In my effort to appear cooperative I again reached for my wallet before being asked to and when I was about half way up with it I realized I was making a deadly sin, and made eye contact with #1 and slowly produced my wallet and handed him my ID. He explained his mission, I answered his questions and all was good...until #2 decided to get involved. #2 I believe, wanted me to be a "fucking turd" and I think nearly every word that came out of his mouth made me want to be one. #1 was clearly aware of this and kept coming up with things for #2 to do that removed him from the conversation, including telling #2 more than once, to let him handle this.

I had a loaded .45 on the dash, a loaded assault rifle and a loaded shotgun on the floor in the backseat area, clearly a very dangerous person if they chose to make me out one. By the time it was over, #1 and I had decided the issue of legality was indeed unclear, but he had to do as his supervisors had intructed him, and I agreed. As I said before, not worth arguing about in court to me when I could simply go across the road and do as I please unmolested. By this time a field training officer had showed up along with another unmarked unit. Niether of them ever offered to engage me and if I remember right, one of them even helped to distract #2 at one time.

It all ended on a happy note, but I easily could have been arrested, beaten while they shouted "stop resisting", or even shot. I thanked #1 before I drove away and in retrospect would like to thank him again for possibly saving my life. I hope #2 learned something that day and got over his "I'll show you" attitude before anything bad happens/happened as a result of it.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 30, 2011, 10:25 AM:
 
Go out behind the barracks, YEA take care of business I say. KUDOS!!!! YES I agree don't piss me off either.

NO you could not have worked down in this place for very long, even worse if you wore stripes, YOU would be in the middle of the fight. UGLY!!

My integrity was never challenged by the corrupt ones either. NOT ONCE. They knew I was brutally honest and stood my ground. That is why I had a target on my back. Guess if I would have lied and cheated once in awhile I'd be one of the fella's.

All you needed to do was sell your soul to the devil and you were part of the club. FUCK THAT I am not going to prison!!! Now you know why I am an asshole.

I noted one thing that stuck out in your comments is having to review video tape from car stops. Not a job I'd care to have for many reason's. That I am sure would get boring quickly.

NOW your talkin my lingo if your pissin off the powers to be by telling it like it is EVEN if is just once in awhile.

[ May 30, 2011, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on May 30, 2011, 10:32 AM:
 

quote:

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YOU may be clean as a whistle, but others are not. And especially if your big on traffic enforcement, one is going to be stopping fellow cops. And cops like to drive off the clock like they do on the clock.

---

I don't, I follow all the laws, all the time. I lead by example. I'm not going to write a ticket for a violation I commit. Most of the people in this county recognize me whem I'm off duty, so I try to be professional at all times.

I've always wondered what it would be like being an LEO in a big urban area where nobody knows who you are. My department patrols a County bigger than the state of Rhode Island with 32 Deputies.....

EDIT: Ken, post some pics of you in uniform please.

[ May 30, 2011, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Lungbuster ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 30, 2011, 10:34 AM:
 
I found Jims story interesting when he first told me about it.

I thought the WISER older cop was smart keeping a leash on the youngster.

To much to do and think about when wearing the badge these days.

Lungbuster ALWAYS a good idea not to be a hypocrite.

Like cops who here in California cite people for tinted windows when they have them too. PISSES some people off, what do they do, go park by the Police station with their camera taking picture of cops cars with tinted window.

Then they take their pictures to the media. Oh boy here comes another shit storm we have to waiver and deal with.

[ May 30, 2011, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 30, 2011, 10:36 AM:
 
Wow Doug, I didn't know you were in law enforcement ? not that I know you very well.

Cassia county, sheriff dept ?
 

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Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on May 30, 2011, 10:41 AM:
 
Yep.

Dave, what's your email? Or send me an email. I need to talk to someone about hunting Owyhee county. I was thinking about putting in a draw for unit 42.

[ May 30, 2011, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Lungbuster ]
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 30, 2011, 10:45 AM:
 
It's shugy01@msn.com I gotta' run an errand, I'll get with ya a little later.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 30, 2011, 10:46 AM:
 
So, can we have a group hug, ya big lug?

This conversation is not improving my attitude. Man! I hate bossy cows!

But, dogboy. I really didn't know that SB sheriff's Dept was so corrupt? You know, Upland sits on the boundary between Los Angeles and San Bernardino Counties. The road to Mt Baldy is the dividing line between jurisdictions, LA Sheriff's and SB County Sherrifs, from San Antonio Heights to beyond Baldy Village, which is cut in half, as far as responsibility for enforcement.

Anyway, both agencies occasionally drive through Upland but we have very little, to no contact.

I read this morning that some SB cop shot somebody yesterday?

gh/lb
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 30, 2011, 10:59 AM:
 

quote:

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That's an awesome mustache 49!!!!

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Thanks Bro.

Mrs. 49 has been after me for years to get rid of it. But I think I will keep it for a while longer.

Edit: Right around Halloween one year I realized the guys were all growing mustaches. I asked the other sergeant what was up and he told me they were being "me" for Halloween.

Bastards.

[ May 30, 2011, 11:13 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 30, 2011, 11:37 AM:
 
Yep Leonard SBSD is by far dirty as they can be. The are not only corrupt, but will destroy the lifes and reputations of those who do not play their game.

What happens are the honest ones are forced to work in fear and ALWAYS say yes in order to survive. I just pray the FBI will come in there and clean that house.

49's boys have cleaned up their house and continued on. NO ONE has touched SBSD in more than 30 years. Little issues that pop up get swept under the rug as quickly as possible.

The last 3 Sheriff's have ALL had a cloud of corruption over their heads. Former Sheriff Floyd Tidwell was indicted on 525 Counts of stealing guns from evidence over a period of years.

Because of the corruption in the District Attorney's office he was eventually allowed to plead out to some misdemeanors. NOTHING but a freakin joke at the end of the day.

Lungbuster for you. That's all I have in my photobucket, everything else is dead coyotes and critters.



That was 10 years ago when I was better looking. SHUT up Jim!!!

Hey 49 would you be pissed if I told you that not only is SBSD corrupt but so is the Union and their lawyers? Corrupt to the core
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 30, 2011, 11:50 AM:
 

quote:

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Because of the corruption in the District Attorney's office he was eventually allowed to plead out to some misdemeanors. NOTHING but a freakin joke at the end of the day.

---

SLPD's chief got to retire early and he got a bonus to do it. No charges were filed.

49 I think your shining us on a little. I think the guy in that picture is actually a younger Dennis Franz from hill street blues.

[ May 30, 2011, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 30, 2011, 01:15 PM:
 
LOl Dan I see the resemblance.

Ken...nah I wouldn't be pissed. Hey you got that western cop cowboy type stance. Sorta like the Duke himself.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 30, 2011, 01:20 PM:
 
LOL 49, the Duke is one of my heroes!!!
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 30, 2011, 04:02 PM:
 
No, I didn't word that exactly like I wanted.

1. He retired early

2. He got a cash bonus, and

3. No charges were filed.

I think his daughter and others got charges either dropped or reduced.

Kind of like the old joke, one knew where the bodies were buried and the others had it on film.
 

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Posted by kodiak61 (Member # 3255) on May 30, 2011, 04:11 PM:
 
The struggle for me is one of rights versus common sense.

In a traffic stop or other daily interaction with law enforcement I honestly always just be as respectful as possible and try to get on my way. Even if I know my "rights" state I do could otherwise.

I am a veteran, hold a current CCW in Arizona, Washington, Oregon and Utah. I have passed every background check there is I believe and once upon a time held a Top Secret clearance. I am a good law abiding citizen. Now with that said, as some of you know I look like a guy that was just profiled on National Geographic's "Hard Time". I have tattoo's on my neck, hands and well every else. So because of perceived stereo types which I fully understand I do my best to be as polite, cooperative and respectful as possible when dealing with law enforcement. Even though I want to be the guy broken recording "am I being detained? Am I free to go? Am I being detained, am I free to go? No you may not search my vehicle".

I have a clear, concise understanding of my rights and the game that can be played but it is just "easier" to take a pass on my rights and play the officers game. I hate that I just typed that because giving any ground on my rights and defined by the Constitution just bothers me to the core. As a father of four though I guess I have to make that concession so I can go about my business.

Lungbuster, Ken and 4949, what are you individual thoughts on people who stand fast by their rights and dont consent to searches, check points or other questionable SOP daily activities that you partake in? Are they just pains in the asses that you feel the need to make an example of? Or do you respect them taking a stand on their rights?

[ May 30, 2011, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: kodiak61 ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 30, 2011, 04:53 PM:
 
Kodiak, me personally I understand the concerns and why citizens make the challenge. I am not bothered when some one challenges my authority in MOST circumstances.

I must say it did not happen that often either way. I let people vent their concerns or frustations justified or not.

I was rolling video and everything we were saying was on tape. SO when I decided to say enough is enough, I was comfortable that no matter what the outcome was, I would win.

Myself early on I learned not to get excited about the small stuff. It was the small stuff the cops get anal about, that leads to many of the confrontations that make the papers.

Myself knowing there are asshole cops out there, I will kill them with kindness and give them all the rope they need to hang themselves.

I will obey the commands, and BITCH later. JUST safer that way.

But in the last 25 years, I've only been stopped once in my car, got a ticket for tinted windows violation. Stopped twice by Arizona Fish&Game, cited once. No plug in my shotgun. MY BAD, cleaned my shotgun the night before, got sidetracked, forgot to put the plug back in.

So 3 contacts in 25 years I am not going to give much thought to a lot of what has been said in here even though I have said more than my share of commentary. REAL world for me.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 30, 2011, 05:38 PM:
 
As far as consents go, now that I am older(and supposedly wiser) I realize some people are just standing up for their rights. When you have been doing this long enough, as Ken, Del, and Lungbuster will attest to, you can tell the difference between the people who are standing up for the rights from the people who are trying to hide something.

Consent denials do piss off our younger guys though, because then they have to go through the long ordeal of getting a search warrant. It's a long story here.

[ May 30, 2011, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 30, 2011, 07:00 PM:
 

quote:

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Consent denials do piss off our younger guys

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I suppose the reason might be due to their perceived. "entitlement"?
Screw that Bill of Rights, they want to look just for the hell of it....might find something.

It was a long time ago, but I'm still pissed at that asshole that said: "mind if I have a look back here" as he was opening the camper door, and as his partner distracted me.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on May 30, 2011, 07:07 PM:
 
I've been a little busy lately so excuse my absence. I would like to give you LEOs how this looks like to an Arizona citizen. First, Dipshit, I mean Dipnik, has no reputation with anyone from the moderates to the far right wing of the political spectrum. He lost all credibility the way he tried to spin the Giffords shooting being the fault of hate speech from Limbaugh, Beck, etc. Most citizens already don't trust the guy so the Marine gets 1 point just because Dipshit is an untrustworthy spin doctor. The PCSD uses a swat team for a search warrant. Marine gets another point. Sheriff's office initially says the Marine fired a shot at the Officers, but in fact the safety was still on. The Marine gets 1 point for the Sheriff's office lying about the shot being fired and the Marine gets another point for his safety being on. The Sheriff's office shuts down public access to the warants. Marine gets another point because it looks like a cover up by the PCSD. I'm not anti cop,but in this case the skeptical press and critical public opinion is well warranted. No evidence seized: marine one more point. Lets see: Marine six pts, sheriff dipshit zero. To me just looking at the known facts gives me the chill.

I also look at this as if what if this happened to me. I have no reason to believe the cops will be banging down my door because I'm not doing anything wrong. Therefore, anyone comes charging into my home is most likely a home invasion crew. That is the first thing that will pop into my head. But hey I'm not perfect. I have a few more guns and bullets than I can possibly carry. Therefore I just gave Sherrif Joe a spin angle. How many of you guys think they wouldn't do it to you? Say you only have bolt guns. Well they'll spin that into "this nut case had sniper rifles." Say you like to take your grandson shooting his 22 so you have a few bricks. They'll say you have several thousand rounds of ammo. They will also say you were ready for them even if the guns are in a safe and the ammo is in a different locked cabinet. I've seen on tv where they show the press all of the guns and ammo someone had. IMHO I thought the guys stash was a little low in most cases. Remember Randy Weaver? His collection was no bigger than most of our own collections. If you ever down loaded porn or visited adult sites you are a pervert even if it was done by your 14 year old without your knowledge. If you are a reloader you had explosives. They might even call the bomb disposal squad to dispose of you 3,000 primers and 30 pounds of gun powder. That really sells the story with a man dress up like gumbo carrying out the goods. In the final analysis, this Marine looks pretty clean at this point.

I would like to add that it is nice to see a couple of other members that don't like Sherrif Joe. I've been taken to task several times over my opinions of Joe on this board. I stopped voting for the guy two elections ago.
 

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Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on May 30, 2011, 08:39 PM:
 
Thanks Ken, was hoping you had a dumb uniform I could make fun of. But it kinda looks like mine...
 

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Posted by kodiak61 (Member # 3255) on May 30, 2011, 10:16 PM:
 
Thanks for answering that question, now on a more serious note, after searching a subject what do you feel inside when you find this?




 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 30, 2011, 11:10 PM:
 
LMAO Lungbuster WTF is a DUMB uniform?? I thought ugly was the word or phrase?

Nope green and tan. Pretty much standard up and down the state. Myself blue is cool!!!!

AzNative interesting analogy. I agree Dupnik made himself public spectacle when he made national news. I am sure if he had any REAL points he lost them after that.

Your score for the Marine, I think you might have cheated him out of a couple points just because he is a Marine.

RIGHT now as far as public support, I think our War Veterans are going to get more points than the local cops just because.

It will be interesting to see if his brother Marines circle the wagons too defend a fallen brother in arms.

But no one here has said this thing won't be ugly.

As to Sheriff Joe, well I liked him, but I also did not follow him in the local papers.

His problems are not going away anytime soon. A smart Sheriff who thought the Board of Supervisor's and a Judge was a crook, would have had the State Attorney general do the investigation, NOT his office.

This issue with the former District Attorney and two Deputy DA's who got fired and are awaiting a disciplinary hearing before the State bar are all part of the Sheriff's antics.

His own people within the command structure are talking. It does not look good.

But I hear from some, that no matter what Sheriff Joe does, he is a HERO too many who love him no matter what.

Wish I had that type of love.

[ May 30, 2011, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on May 31, 2011, 07:33 AM:
 
Ken: to me Dupnik is nothing more than a much more liberal and more stupid version of Sheriff Joe. They are both camera whores that cannot be trusted. I turned off to Joe when his lawsuits started costing up millions. The first big issue was when a choke hold killed an inmate and his reply was simply "I'll just increase the copay for medical care". The second big issue was when the family of female just detained went to the jail house and pleaded for the guards to give the woman her meds. She died a short while later because they refused. Not one word was mentioned by Joe about better training to prevent these wrongfull death lawsuits. I have heard from someone who has high connections that they believe Joe will be indicted if he ever loses his job. The new person on the job will see what he has been up to and it will be all over with for Joe. This person said this to me that last time there were rumors of Joe running for Govenor. He simply said Joe will never run because of the above reason. Joe sure did have a very loyal number two man. It looks like most of the dirty tricks were pulled by him. Joe's most loyal voter base is the various Sun Cities. He provides them with good police protection so they save on city property taxes and they all vote for joe. I must confess that I don't keep up with local news because I watch Fox National news 95 percent of the time.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 31, 2011, 11:22 AM:
 
AzNative interesting on your paying attention to the lawsuit payouts. No doubt Sheriff Joe loves the camera's. Even his supporters admit that.

Folks focus most of the time on the criminal aspects of police misconduct. If no charges are filed or someone is cleared of CRIMINAL misconduct, most folks forget about the issue.

FEW pay attention to the taxpayer money going out the back door for the civil misdeeds of public servants. That would involve everyone in government, not just the cops. But cops get a big chunk of the blame.

When a jury awards big bucks to folks who have been wronged, there is a message to be seen.

But I can tell you public servants and politicians generally say, "who cares, it's not my money".

I think it's safe to say if big counties and cities didn't have that attitude their individual budgets would not be hurting quite as bad.
 

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Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on May 31, 2011, 01:49 PM:
 
In this area most counties and cities are insured by a large state level group, assoc. of wash. cities. AWC.
Once a lawsuit is filed the city/county has no say in the out come, it is negotiated or goes to court at AWC's whim. They almost always settle rather than risk trial even if it is an easy case.
Carl
 

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Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on June 01, 2011, 08:34 AM:
 
As many of you know, I work on cars so I don't really care about fancy work clothes with my job being so tough on clothes. This morning I grabbed a shirt from the cabinet were my wife puts my work clothes, and the shirt was a new to me Phoenix PD shirt sans badging that she purchased from the goodwill. Now that would be evidence that could be used to paint me as a turd with the local media if I was in the same position as this Marine. Everyone of us should look around and look at all the stuff the police could use to paint us turd brown if they wanted to. We all score one point just being a member of this radical forum.
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on June 01, 2011, 10:56 AM:
 
I finally found some time to read the whole thread before replying, and here are my questions to the Leo's here and my opinion. First the questions:

1) Why wasn't surveillance of the premises done to determine who was occupying the house?
2) If surveillance was completed, why wouldn't the area be secured and a knock on the door be done by a single member of the SWAT team, asking for cooperation?
3) How tall is the guy standing next to the GMC in 49's pictures? He must be 4'-10" and the gear he is carrying weighs more than he does.

My opinion is that this is a total failure by the entire department from the top down, no matter what evidence comes out from this point forward. I don't care if that guy is a mass murderer, his wife and kids are not. They are innocent civilians and nothing was done to keep them out of the line of fire. Someone ordered a SWAT team to execute a search warrant, this is ridiculous. The SWAT leader is culpable because he is responsible for the tactical meeting and planning of the mission (not sure if this is correct terminology). The SWAT members are culpable because no one asked the proper questions prior to this mission being carried out. If they thought this man was dangerous than they should not announce their presence, enter from multiple points of entry and secure the house. If they thought it was a possible hostage situation they should have secured the area, announced their presence, and negotiate for a peaceful resolution. The procedure stinks, the planning stinks, and the execution of the plan stinks. The question of whether or not the guy had a gun and pointed it at the officers is secondary to me, because it should not have gotten to that point.

Everyone should lawyer up on the LE side, and should not comment on an ongoing investigation. They should not release any information about the suspect because that is a violation of his privacy and would open the door to a lawsuit. I don't fault the department at all for doing this, and don't believe it is a cover-up until all evidence is released.

It angers and scares me that this could be considered even remotely justifiable. If it takes busting everyone of these folks involved down to a janitorial job with the department, and a trial for civil violations I am all for it.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on June 01, 2011, 01:38 PM:
 

quote:

---

I finally found some time to read the whole thread before replying, and here are my questions to the Leo's here and my opinion. First the questions:

1) Why wasn't surveillance of the premises done to determine who was occupying the house?
2) If surveillance was completed, why wouldn't the area be secured and a knock on the door be done by a single member of the SWAT team, asking for cooperation?
3) How tall is the guy standing next to the GMC in 49's pictures? He must be 4'-10" and the gear he is carrying weighs more than he does

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quote:

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The search warrant is very well written. The detective layed out in detail not once but several times how each player was involved in this case.

The detective clearly showed these players did not work real jobs, but the property they were attached to or driving was probably purchased with drug money by someone at sometime.

The information on the Marine was MORE than sufficient to justifie issuing a search warrant for his house. His arrests from several years previous and LE's contacts with him during the car stops,surveilance, CLEARLY suggest he is a player in the game of moving dope.

Clear and reasonable facts to show a criminal enterprise in the works and those named might be involved.

The cops had an informant, but the cops went out on their own to confirm the facts contained in this search warrant. MORE than enough background data to support their beliefs.

It clearly appears many man hours went into getting enough information to establish a search warrant. A PAINSTAKING task for those who know.

As I said the true answers lay within the search warrant, NOT one issue to suspect ANY misconduct on the part of the detective.

EVERY reason for a judge to believe criminal activity was taking place and a search warrant may find additional evidence of a crime.

EVERY i was doted and t crossed in writing this search warrant as I know them to be written.

THERE will be no criminal issues leveled against these cops by anyone.

No doubt a civil suit may be filed, but that is another issue.

Since these are official documents, I must say the detective more than did his job in obtaining these warrants.

This detective had NO CONTROL on the unfortunate situation that unfolded at the Marine's house.

At this time it CLEARLY appears the Marine was wearing TWO hats. One of a United States Marine who served our country honorable during wartime.

The other hat that only couple might know was the one of a player of a mid-level drug ring.

In order to possibly catch these folks with dope ALL the locations and people involved WOULD have needed to be kept under surveilance 24/7.

I doubt the Sheriff's department had the manpower to accomplish that mission based on what I read in the search warrant.

Kudos to the detective for a job well done for his part.

When the detective refers to these people as mid-level players, the total circumstances suggest these folks are moving the dope to another drop off point versus selling it out of their house.

In order to catch a load of dope at ones house, TIMING is the key and the cat and mouse game can go on for months.

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quote:

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Anyways, lets roll with the theory that he was somehow involved in the smuggling. It would make sense to me that his safety was in the off position because of his military training. Many drug smugglers are robbed by other drug dealers and or people that make a living off robbing drug dealers. A very popular method is to get all Surplus stored up and pretend to be police doing a raid. So lets say the wife (who's family members were killed in a home invasion) wakes him up telling him there is someone kicking in the door, he may think at first at least that this is the scenario. So he grabs his rifle and heads to check it out. Once the door flie open and he see's that it is actual police and he never un-safe's his weapon because of that military training AND he, like many law abiding citizens (and more criminals) believes the police wont harm him. And since they found nothing at his house maybe he knew that he was ok to be searched and just never felt the threat to unsafe his firearm and return fire to the officers

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quote:

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The information on the Marine was MORE than sufficient to justifie issuing a search warrant for his house. His arrests from several years previous and LE's contacts with him during the car stops,surveilance, CLEARLY suggest he is a player in the game of moving dope

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quote:

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This is an unfortunate set of circumstances brought on by the decedent's life style.

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quote:

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You mean ....."brought on by the long arm of the law

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quote:

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$41,000.00 a year will easily make the payments on the vehicles

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Yes if he is still liveing with his mother..
If not then theres rent, food, gas, utility bills which will leave enough for a monthly payment on one vehicle and 7 yr. loan...
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on June 04, 2011, 02:08 PM:
 
I have a new Harley and drive a BMW Z3 Roadster... I don't have a job and my vehicles were paid for with cash, so...

Does that mean I should be waiting for a knock on my door immediately followed by the door being kicked in by a SWAT team? I live next door to our police station so if they kick in the wrong door here(as the SWAT team did before this tragic incident)they will be kicking in their own door!

Another thing. When they kicked in this families door, the door swung closed by itself from the impact and was then pushed open again with immediate gunfire from the SWAT team. There was no time for this guy to react at all... he was assassinated, plain and simple.

Nikonut

[ June 04, 2011, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on June 04, 2011, 02:59 PM:
 
That's fine guys. The judge signed a search warrant for the decedent's residence, not a death warrant.

Now there may be some factors that are being overlooked, like why did the decedent pick up an AR when his wife woke him? Did he expect a visit from the police? Did he expect a visit from rival drug dealers? Did he expect a visit from the same home invaders that murdered members of his family? Are the last two one in the same?

Why did he pick up a rifle? Why? If I knew the police were coming to my door, the first thing on my list to do wouldn't be to pick up a battle rifle. Don't forget, I wasn't ALWAYS an LEO.

Why did he feel it necessary to pick up that weapon?

Why?
 

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Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on June 04, 2011, 03:13 PM:
 

quote:

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Did he expect a visit from the police? Did he expect a visit from rival drug dealers? Did he expect a visit from the same home invaders that murdered members of his family? Are the last two one in the same?

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quote:

---

However, the incident in question differs slightly, because the wife woke the decedent and told him there were men outside with guns.

---

You are correct this does change things a lot of people may have opened fire Immediately. Maybe his training to identify his target first saved the life of an officer.

[ June 04, 2011, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: CCP ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 04, 2011, 04:27 PM:
 
MR.Carey I cannot believe you made the statement YOU did, about you not having a job and the stuff you have in comparison to this individual in this case.

You are 65 plus years old, had a business, I am sure you made investments over the years to have the money YOU do. SO NO fucking shit you don't have a job, but you have a business in addition to what you earned LONG AGO!!!

So where the fuck is your thought process going?

You wish to compare yourself with a 26 year old Marine and what he may or may not have as far as money?

I know a cop who lied once! AND???? So refer back to my orginal two postings by me.

YOU to Nikon, who just commented on your rental properties, gee I might have a Harley too if I had rental properties and retirement.

You focus on the money issue and think the search warrant is bogus?

Play with what you know Nikon.

YOU are single Carey, most of your stuff was paid off years ago or SHOULD have been.
Calling bullshit on that.

CCP is your experience from the 1980's and getting your ass kicked by some cops ALL you got to argue this case in 2011 here in Arizona?

HOW much did you collect from the cops who kicked your ass in the 80's??? Should have been worth a few thousand plus? IF so tell us the case and we can look it up?

CCP emotion charged comments? Did you read MY FIRST couple of comments when I showed up to discuss these issues after lurking for more than a couple years. LIKE my very first two postings would be posting 32 or 33?

I am calm and focused. If you hear my voice through the keyboard RECORD it. I will award you $500 dollars in US CURRENCY.

[ June 04, 2011, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on June 04, 2011, 05:06 PM:
 

quote:

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CCP is your experience from the 1980's and getting your ass kicked by some cops ALL you got to argue this case in 2011 here in Arizona

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quote:

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HOW much did you collect from the cops who kicked your ass in the 80's??? Should have been worth a few thousand plus? IF so tell us the case and we can look it up?

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quote:

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Play with what you know Nikon.

---

What I know is most any of us would have been dead if that was our front door. And I know that what I saw in that video was abuse of power and scares the hell out of me! With or without a search warrant.

That guy was convicted before he was even searched or cuffed! He was given no chance to drop his weapon and wasn't called out... they kicked in his door and shot him! If that doesn't scare the hell out of every citizen in the USA including you as an officer, then I don't know what to say.

Nikonut

Spelling edited for Smither's benefit.

[ June 04, 2011, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 04, 2011, 05:23 PM:
 
Yes Nikon I would agree with that analogy, but not the money issue.

I too would be scared of what we saw on the video as the SWAT team approached the front door.

But that is not what you commented on. You commented on issue in the search warrant and the money.

EVERYONE agrees on the approach of the SWAT team as the video shows. POOR training or planning, BUT not criminal. AND those who are NOT LEO's past or present have no freaking clue of what your talking about.

Nikon YOU ever killed someone? Looked into their eyes just before you dropped the hammer?
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 04, 2011, 05:31 PM:
 
Well CCP, if I was in your shoes, I'd of got some money from those motherfuckers, but when you don't know the corrupt system and how it works, YOU will be broke at the end of the day.

You seem to be broke?

All the more reason to listen a little more versus telling war stories from 30 years ago thinking YOU can talked the boys down who have done it everyday. STUPID!!! especially when talking smack from small town USA.

Just like those AWESOME ones who call coyotes and can run with the BIG DOGS. Problem is, when challenged on the expertise, ALL they have is their "good word" or "trust me". LMAO!!!!

[ June 04, 2011, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on June 04, 2011, 06:01 PM:
 

quote:

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Why didn’t during the 6 month investigation they find he was working at night?

Why during a 6 month investigation they ended up at the WRONG house to begin with?

If it was miscommunication then is there any miscommunication in that warrant?

Also why do retired people with money like Dan get a free pass selling drugs?

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quote:

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Nikon YOU ever killed someone? Looked into their eyes just before you dropped the hammer?

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quote:

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Okie Dokie, now I find that comment as being just a little wierd, just sayin'

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Me too!!

[ June 04, 2011, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: CCP ]
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on June 04, 2011, 06:50 PM:
 
"You are 65 plus years old, had a business, I am sure you made investments over the years to have the money YOU do. SO NO fucking shit you don't have a job, but you have a business in addition to what you earned LONG AGO!!!

So where the fuck is your thought process going?

You wish to compare yourself with a 26 year old Marine and what he may or may not have as far as money?

I know a cop who lied once! AND???? So refer back to my orginal two postings by me."
--------------------------------------------
First YOU misspelled original. See what anger does to you.

No he lied several times.

The comparison between me and the marine is justified by the fact the cop never said anything about his financial history, other than how much HE made last year. How about this, did his wife work? Had he received an insurance settlement or some other large lump sum of money? He had a nice pickup that probably cost $40,000. new. And he had some other vehicles worth $65,000. The question who appraised the vehicles? the cop? Now that's big fucking deal.
I don't intend to respond to this thread again, as I have made up my mind about this event.

My thought process comes from years and years and years of life's experiences, remember you said I was old. You are right about some things, I just can't remember what they were.

[ June 04, 2011, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Dan Carey ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 04, 2011, 07:31 PM:
 
CCP and Dave, you find the comment a little weird, because you have never experienced that unfortunate situation. Too deep for most who have not. I understand.

So I know what at least some of those guys in Arizona are thinking and may be feeling. Would hate to think their all high fivin each other.

Thanks Dan for the spelling lesson.

Now you folks with all your life drama about corrupt cops who have screwed with you, beat you up, stopped you for no cause, and screwed with you, cops who have lied several times. WHAT did you do about it?

How about your friends who were victims of such outrageous conduct?

Did you file formal complaints? Sue the shit out of the cops? Have them prosecuted? What was the outcome?

If nothing to the above questions, then it might be fair to say YOU were lying in your comments, didn't know what to do and still don't, or just plain talking smack and no balls to follow through.

If your saying we couldn't because everyone is corrupt, I say BULLSHIT.

Around here we call them whining bitches. I am sure some of you know what that is.

With all the commentary in the negative about cops, I was hopin to find at least one millionare who could tell us how he beat the corrupt system and won. People on welfare know how to do it.

Sorry CCP your incident from 30 years ago is a distant memory and far from making you any kind of expert to call bullshit on this warrant.

Some of you need to head to Arizona, they need you there to SEND the word.

Remember what Cal Taylor finally said to TA17 when he continued to interject into every conversation?

Simple advise, You didn't see me give an opinion on that. I wasn't about to go there.

Just like the LB,Higgins,Jay thread. NO thanks, ain't goin there.

[ June 04, 2011, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on June 04, 2011, 07:52 PM:
 
See Ken... You do have some redeeming qualities!

Nikonut
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 04, 2011, 08:14 PM:
 
"Did you file formal complaints? Sue the shit out of the cops? Have them prosecuted? What was the outcome?

If nothing to the above questions, then it might be fair to say YOU were lying in your comments, didn't know what to do and still don't, or just plain talking smack and no balls to follow through."

-----------------------------------------------

Ken, did you re-up for another tour as Barney?

You're the one who told of how corrupt the cops were.... now we're liars if we didn't sue? Screw you and the horse you rode in on.

For the record, I ain't never killed no one, nor looked in their eyes as they bled out on me. I ain't never arrested anyone nor have I shot the gun out of a "perps" hand saving the day.

But remember I have been on the other side of the badge.

As I stated from the beginning, the cops will be justified. But with no felony convictions or even charges, the swat team was not rightfully there to serve the warrant, no matter how well the trail was marked. It's called circumstantial evidence ain't it?

Now on the other side, the guy was a marine, does that give him a superman cape? If cops can be bad then so can marines or anybody else. Without knowing the whole situation, we can't say he was executed nor can we say he wasn't. He was asked to drop his weapon and didn't, bad move no matter how groggy he was.

The whole thing was a tragedy on both sides, we need to learn from it.

[ June 04, 2011, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 04, 2011, 08:14 PM:
 
"Now you folks with all your life drama about corrupt cops who have screwed with you, beat you up, stopped you for no cause, and screwed with you, cops who have lied several times. WHAT did you do about it? ........Did you file formal complaints? Sue the shit out of the cops? Have them prosecuted? What was the outcome?"

I'll answer that. Being a professional writer does have its up side in my real life. When the PD in our fair city decided that my son was an easy mark and began essentially harassing him for every move he made, I began to take notes. When he slid through a stop sign on a sheet of ice at less than half the speed limit with his brakes applied because the city chose to not treat the intersections, and the officer that wrote the ticket decided to be a self-serving, subjective prick, I took notes, and had my son request the dash cam video. I took the training that I received courtesy of the local taxpayers as well as a few things I learned in college-level 'rithmetic and I took more notes. And, when the crooked-assed judge harangued my son for ten minutes for something he did not do on the word of a rat bastard Assistant County Attorney with an agenda against my son, I recognized the prudence of waiting patiently for the one person who could have stepped in and exercised some common sense and dismissed the ticket - the Chief of Police - to make a mistake. It didn't take long.

Less than six months later, the high Chief stepped over the line by pulling a childish and sophomoric prank on a subordinate employee with connections. When I heard that the Chief's judgment had come to question, I immediately sat down and sent the City Manager a four page letter outlining my formal complaint against the Chief, including dates, times, and all the ridiculously shortsighted CRAP that was told to me and my son by both the Chief and his officers. In that letter, I provided them a second by second accounting if the incident involving my son as taken from THEIR dashcam video. I proved to the City Manager that my son was going 13.7 mph in a 30 mph zone, that his brakes were on from the initial point when the citing officer saw him, that he did in fact try to stop whereas the officer testified that he made no effort to do so and that his threat to write him an additional ticket for speed in excess of what was reasonable for existing conditions should consider also that I demonstrated that the officer was doing 37 in a 30 on a sheet of solid ice and asked the question... "who was driving carelessly?" That letter was immediately forwarded to every member of the local City Commission who, as I understand it, used the information I had provided them as the basis for their supporting the City Manager's actions in relieving the Chief of Police of his command, citing my complaint and the supporting documents as further supporting their contention that he failed to use good judgment in dealing with the public and that, because of other charges, his conduct was unbecoming a Police Chief. He's selling used cars now, and not doing very well at that. I, in turn, was commended by several city commissioners for my "well written and comprehensive letter of complaint".

So, to answer that question... what have I done to deal with this? I got the bastard fired. Then, I approached several of those guys who I used to respect and used to be friends with and asked them how it felt to know that their collective actions and behavior had cost their boss his career.

Next question.....

[ June 04, 2011, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by kodiak61 (Member # 3255) on June 04, 2011, 08:14 PM:
 
I'm Dan Carey and you're not.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on June 04, 2011, 08:33 PM:
 

quote:

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Maybe his training to identify his target first saved the life of an officer.

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quote:

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Now I have the utmost respect for our military. But just like the police have some bad apples, so does the military. That's my point.

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Youre right 4949 thats why the military has M.P. and L.E.'s.. What goes on in the cities also takes place on most bases, only difference is the military is much harser when dishing out convictions..
 

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Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on June 04, 2011, 09:05 PM:
 
Here is the truth of it:

Police want to make arrests.

Prosecutors want to make convictions.

Guilt or innocence has NOTHING to do with it.

If you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, kiss your ass goodbye. This Marine was in the wrong place at the wrong time, he was asleep in his home. There is no doubt in my mind he could have been arrested without killing him.

Anyone remember the jack boot BATFE thugs at Ruby Ridge or Waco? This sad story repeats itself all too often.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 04, 2011, 09:26 PM:
 
Ken I took exception to the "what did you do about it... and maybe you're lying part, might not have been directed at me but...

No I didn't sue the police, no I didn't make a big deal out of any of it, I took my chances and won in the end.

Call me a liar and I say screw you and the horse you rode in on. I don't care if you are 5'4".
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 04, 2011, 09:30 PM:
 
Ok Tom, I parked my horse.

Forgot to say thanks for the comment you made, that I added to my sig line.

[ June 04, 2011, 09:38 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 04, 2011, 09:49 PM:
 
Glad I could help!
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on June 04, 2011, 10:02 PM:
 
I wasn't going to reply to it again either, but what the hey...

What I have to add may provide a little food for thought if anyone chooses to engage the mechanism.

Guerena was a former marine who served 2 tours in the sand box. Charles Whitman was a former marine too. You know the guy who murdered his wife and mother and then climbed the administration building at UTA and killed another 14 folks and wounded 32. Seen any of the stuff on TV about gangs infiltrating the Armed Forces? They're tagging walls all over the middle east and using the training they receive to come home and apply it to their trade. Just saying...

His wife didn't know doodly squat about his job, read her interview. Not what his hours were, not how much he made, only that he worked at the mine, what time he came and went (sometimes), and that he was maybe a maintenance man. No mention of how long he'd had that job that I can remember. Seems odd to me, but that's no reason to doubt. Or is it?

In one of the interviews it makes mention that during some of the surveillance, the detective got busted and followed by someone for 10 miles. I'd might follow somebody too if I caught them scoping out my pad. I might also report the incident to the popo, unless I thought it may have been the popo. But I would definitely get anything (like drugs and/or money) I didn't want found or stolen out of my house.

The wife didn't work, but she was attending school off and on and trying to learn to speak better english. They bought the house 7 months ago, I think, dunno if they financed or paid cash.

And...just because someone has a job don't mean shit. There were 3 of Sheriff Joe's employees arrested here recently that had VERY CLOSE ties to one of the narco cartels. They are infiltrating and blending in, kinda like Jose Guerena. This narco shit is serious business in this part of the country, REAL serious. Do not, I repeat, DO NOT, believe Janet Laplicker, she LIES.

What happened was a shame. I don't think it was handled properly, but I'm just a civilian. Jose Guerena is smelling more and more like a "fucking turd" to me.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on June 04, 2011, 10:53 PM:
 
Oh man!!! You guys are a riot!!! He's guilty because he has money that he didn't make last year.........you fucking retards!!! I mean that in the nicest way possible but really...wtf?

My son in law has finished 2 tours in that gawd forsaken sand box and has over 70,000 dollars saved, he and my daughter drives nice vehicles....and if appraised by a fucking retard cop would prolly add up to an outrageous amount of money..........wonder if they'll kick HIS door and shoot HIM too.

I would like to say something nice and not resort to name calling but if the money issue is what you guys are hinging his guilt on........you're fucking retards!!

t-bag.........are you serious.......did you just give Lance a lecture on traffic laws and then follow it up with winter driving tips......It's getting to be like the special olympics around here lately..........don't worry......everyone will get a medal. Sheeeeesh!!!!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 05, 2011, 12:35 AM:
 
I just got home a while ago, and caught up on my reading. Several misspelled words, BTW.

My only comment is that like someone else mentioned earlier, I KNOW A COP WILL LIE, ON THE WITNESS STAND, OR PERHAPS (SPECULATING) IN SUBMITTING A SEARCH WARRANT?

The difference is, a cop is believed 99% of the time while a defendant is lucky if he is believed by 50% of the jury.

And, the worst liars in a court room are the prosecutor and the defendant's lawyer. I call it a draw.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by kodiak61 (Member # 3255) on June 05, 2011, 02:40 AM:
 
Additional info can be found here, caution its bias...

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B6Fh3F6hufhDMDQ0YTUxMWEtMzdkMy00NmFlLTk4ODUtZjRjM2FiNzUyODJk&hl=en_US&pli=1
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on June 05, 2011, 05:46 AM:
 
Guys,

In defense of Ken, he did say when he entered this fray that he would wait for the warrant to come out. The warrant is a very telling document. As was stated, it is the culmination of a six month long investigation initiated by information obtained by the affiant during a motor vehicle stop he conducted in January of 2009. There is a lot of detective work that went into the contents of same. ken, who has been anti-cop since his reappearance here at Huntmasters, has been open minded enough to realize there are two sides to this debacle. I give him credit for that. If some here choose not to believe the information contained in the warrant, then that is your business. It should be pointed out that the warrant contains more than financial records, or statements. The information is there if you wish to see it.

Now I realize and admit that this warrant doesn't tell us what happened in those few seconds inside the decedent's household. We have, or should have helmet cams for that.

The events remain to be seen.

[ June 05, 2011, 05:54 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on June 05, 2011, 06:20 AM:
 
The guys smokes some weed and gives some to his buddies(transports) takes advantage of the system as an hispanic( wow, that's rare, huh), owns 6 cars, that when new were worth a lot of money........what a turd!!!

I found the part of the warrant describing the officers training to be of special interest, I really liked the part where he says he recieved SPECIAL training in writing search warrants and in KNOCK and TALK techniques........WTF

Oh well..........at least he wrote a cool search warrant.........I'm not as easily impressed as you coppers.

He wrote a well worded search warrant, one that would for sure cover his ass when it all went south anyway........he did forget his KNOCK and TALK training apparantly, I find that part to be of special interest considering the video proof we have.

I dont care what the warrant says, it SHOULD be good what with the SPECIAL training it takes to write one (read....cover your ass)..........NONE of the stuff mentioned in that warrant was found in the murdered mans home or EXPENSIVE cars......NONE!

Sorry fellas.....it's bullshit through and through.......I suggest a remedial class in the KNOCK and TALK techniques.
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on June 05, 2011, 06:53 AM:
 
I dont know all the facts about this mess. but even if this guy was a mid level turd in some cartel,the swat team mshandled this entry ,there was absolutley no reason for any one to die or children to be indangered. This was definatley poor work by the entry team. We can talk for weeks about wether or not he was a dirt bag but there will be no trial and we will never know to what extent if any he was involved. There will be however a law suit.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 05, 2011, 07:11 AM:
 
While standing next to my horse, I'd like to say THANK YOU 49. I was hoping a couple of others would see what you just said.

Damn, it took a pro-copper to say it though. 49 If I had been pro-cop I'd of just got shot sooner than later.

Don't beat me Tom or JD....Barney out.

[ June 05, 2011, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on June 05, 2011, 07:21 AM:
 
Ken, your welcome. The facts are what they are.

JD,

Did you bother to read about all the surveillance these officers conducted? What about all the person to person transactions, and the irregular hours? The counter surveillance?These are all techniques used by drug dealers, in case you didn't know.

The bottom line is, we have JD saying the information in the warrant is "bullshit." And we have a Pima County Superior Court JUDGE who signed off on the warrant as VALID.

Let's see...who should I believe?
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on June 05, 2011, 07:49 AM:
 

quote:

---

The bottom line is, we have JD saying the information in the warrant is "bullshit." And we have a Pima County Superior Court JUDGE who signed off on the warrant as VALID.

Let's see...who should I believe?

---

Maybe this judge made an error in judgement?

After all, I heard a former President of the United states say, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman".

Clinton bold face lying

Then we had the Attorney General of the USA, Janet Reno "alias Chewbacca the Wookie" who signed off on Waco, and I'm sure somebody gave the Okie Dokie to Ruby Ridge. I don't know who signed off on the Police bombing Philly.

[ June 05, 2011, 07:52 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 05, 2011, 08:00 AM:
 
"Cdog; Not to start a pissing match but since you brought it up... According to the law here youre son is considered guilty of a moveing violation.. "The law here states a driver shall have control of his car at all times, day or night, ice, rain or snow".. If the roads are too bad to drive on then walk or stay at home.. When a driver goes out on say a icey road he is putting himself and others at risk and the cops are not going to stop everyone that does but when there is a wreck there are going to be tickets given..
I'm not saying the cops were'nt picking on youre kid since I was'nt there but he did loose control of his car and slid through a stop sign.. Right!!

Edit to add: Little driveing tip. When on icey roads and comeing to a stop if vehicle starts to slide push and release the brakes (short jabs) and put vehicle in neutral. And if all else fails and there are no cars behind you put trany in reverse and tap the throttle.."

Tim (and JD), no fight here. In a black and white world, that's the same law in Kansas. But, one must look at the testimony of the officer and the overall circumstances and what happened that morning with my son. Then, as is my main point, the officer must apply SOUND JUDGMENT.

In this case,the street upon which my son was driving was clean and dry except for the 92 feet leading up to the stop sign. It was 4:51 a.m., he was heading home from a friend's house. He approached the sign, applied his brakes, slid through the stop sign and was attempting to clear the intersection before getting hit by a car approaching from the driver's side. When his front tires contacted the right-hand set of tracks moving at a right angle to his direction of travel where the city had, in fact, cleared the ice for N-S traffic on the cross street, he stopped suddenly, saw the approaching car and immediately accelerated to get out of the other car's way, assuming that the other car had no better means of stopping than he did. That is when he was stopped. As for the driving tips, good information, Tim. In fact, so good that when he learned how to drive, I specifically took him out that first winter and showed him how to do that and made him do that. He tried all of that to no avail, so he was aware of that technique and is an overall good driver.

The officer, upon being advised of what happened - because he never asked my son to explain what had happened when he contacted him - refused to pull the ticket and actually told me that he "may even consider adding an excessive speed ticket, as well."

The Chief had been a friend of mine in the past. When I approached him about reviewing the ticket for validity, he puffed his chest out and told me that it's his policy that his officers write for everything they see. When I asked if they are allowed to use some discretion in the field, he said, "No, this is my department and I say write 'em and let the judge sort things out." I asked him then how he still managed to have a job with that attitude toward the public that paid his salary and he just laughed. How prophetic was I?

This Chief had a my-way-or-the-highway attitude toward everything - it's called "power poisoning" - and he had a long list of former friends and enemies because he failed to recognize that only about 10% of the public are true dirtbags and the other 90% are decent people with reasonable expectations, but who occasionally err and that a good law enforcement officer recognizes that law enforcement is, in large part, people management and that when your policies piss the people off to where they don't support you and refuse to contribute to your efforts because you're a dick, your job becomes very difficult. Good LEO's know that value of someone who is beholding to them because he or she let them off once in the past and calling in thsoe favors often times gleans a lot of good information. That's the difference between young offiers who know no better than to run down the hill and screw one of those cows and the old cop who sees the wisdom in awlking down the hill and screwing them all.

Case in point - a group of 14 year old kids did $5000 damage to fencing in one of our city parks, despite a security camera on a light pole nearby. PD investigators could not figure out who did the damage. I asked my son if he was aware of who it might have been and he said that he knew. Watched them do it. Told them to stop. They didn't. Asked him why he didn't report them or call to offer up what he saw when news got out that they were asking for help. His response was, "Fuck 'em." They treated him like dog crap, yet still expect people like him to just hop to and offer up what they know? It's about treating people right and managing the people in the community. Scratch my back and I'll scratch yours.

On the stand, the citing officer in the driving incident testified that he observed my son "blow through the stop sign, making no effort whatsoever to stop his car until after he'd seen me coming" and that "when he saw me, he initially tried to run by trying to speed away, but the ice on the street prevented that and I was able to stop him".

When asked by my son, he testified/ admitted that he was unaware of the condition of the street upon which my son was driving at the time of the stop. He didn't look. Things happened, the CA moved to amend additional charges to my son and my son got scared and basically caved in. Have seen that happen as a result of strategically strong arming young people all the time, which quickly trumps any truth coming out and innocent people are found guilty and are sentenced and fined.

It was after the Chief was relieved of duty that I provided the City Manager with the video evidence to support our claims and to demonstrate that the officer's testimony proved only that he was either lying, or was completely unaware of what actually happened that morning, and that he, in fact, was more in violation of the speeding law than my son was. As I stated above, the video clearly shows that my son had his brakes applied from the very moment he first came into view of the camera and the officer. Using the time stamp on the video, I was able to demonstrate that he was traveling 13.7 mph in a 30 mph zone. His brake lights remained activated until his front wheels hit the dry spot on the cross street, he is seen looking toward the approaching head lights, and then he accelerates to, by his testimony, get out of the way of the approaching car. From the same video, you can see that the cross street is a solid sheet of ice except for right where both it and the street my son was on meet. I have approximately three blocks of the officer's approach before he sees my son and using landmarks in the periphery of the dash camera video, I was able to demonstrate that he was traveling at speeds ranging from 37 when he saw my son first, to as much as 40 moments before, in a 30 mph zone, on ice.

I don't have a problem with them stopping my son at 4:50 a.m.. I don't have a problem with them stopping him for sliding through the intersection. His simply being there and that happening at that time of the day would make me suspicious that he might be DUI. Once the officer contacted him and, as happened, found to his satisfaction that he was not impaired, I would have considered the road surface, asked him what happened and why he didn't stop, and considered what he told me. I then would have considered giving him a written warning and a stern lecture on being more careful. But, in this case, the dumbass cop - the same guy who held my friend's son at gun point for five minutes a few weeks back with a Glock .40 for watching TV at 1 a.m. in his own home because he thought he was burglarizing the place - was too stupid to maintain spatial awareness and remain cognizant to his surroundings. The Chief's policy that no one gets a warning and everyone gets written makes a bad situation worse. That kinda bit him in the ass when he screwed up, pissed off the wrong person and found himself on the receiving end of "write 'em all and let the judge sort 'em out", when the judge, - the City Manager - judged him to be unfit for the job he held and fired him. Bear in mind that the Chief had this policy in all aspects of his department and because of this, his department no longer had a working relationship with any other agency (i.e., Sheriff's Department) and that the County Attorney had advised the City Commission that he would no longer prosecute felony cases from within the city because the Chief's way of investigating those crimes had resulted in 90+% of them being dismissed in pre-trial motions due to the incompetency of his investigative team, but that the Chief refused to make changes because he ran his department "his way".Once the shit hit the fan for "Chief", no one with a badge and credibility stood up to defend him. Very telling. My letter was simply my way of nudging them down that road in helping them to see that they guy was a bonehead and that they'd done the right thing, IMO. For the record, your Honor, I did ask two state troopers and four Sheriff's Deputies to look at the video and the pictures I took of the icy approach my son slid on that night and there was a 100% consensus that, since he was sober, and considering the speed he was driving, they all would have given a warning and told him to get his ass home.

My son didn't kidnap the Lindbergh baby. He isn't an ax murderer, and he isn't a one man drug cartel. You start screwing with people like that, especially kids, and pretty soon, your actions impact those kids and their parents and their friends begin to hear about it and before too long, the entire tax paying base is out for your head, just waiting for you to step off the line. That's when you find out who your friends are.

The last little bonehead to be hired by the former Chief is lining himself up for my attention now. He was new when all the above happened. He just recently completed his academy training and, two weeks ago, forced my son to submit to an illegal search of his car. He and a friend were sitting at the city park in his car just talking and killing time. The officer pulled up behind him, ordered both of them from the vehicle and began searching it without consent. When my son asked him why he was searching his car, he told them that they'd been having trouble with kids smoking in the park and causing damage to park facilities. My son asked him if they thought he'd done something like that and the officer said he didn't know, "now do I", then proceded to complete his search. Didn't find anything, but even if they had, a good attorney would have any charges dismissed because the search was non-consentual and there was no probable cause for initiating it. As was the case when the former Chief was in charge and another officer tried the same crap, I will go to my frinedly City Commissioners and remind them that, as a taxpayer, my tax money is used to maintain that park for the sole purpose of people - including my son and his friend - to have a place where they can hang out and visit with one another, and that as long as they are not doing anything illegal, they shouldn't be subjected to being searched by the Police. I just don't underastand how so many people don't get that until you spoon feed to to them.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on June 05, 2011, 08:22 AM:
 
Good posts Lance.

49 and Ken....you guys are alright, I'm glad you didn't get too worked up over being called retards... I do actually understand what you're saying about the warrant, it's legit, although executed in an extremely questionable manner which in my opinion is to blame for the whole train wreck......sorry....the shoot out falls squarely on LEs shoulders.........KNOCK and TALK would have been a lot easier and more acceptable to the public especially when ALL of the warranted items turned out to be imaginary, well written or not.

Dan makes some good points.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 05, 2011, 08:51 AM:
 
Lance, there are people that just should not be given the powers of arrest. I kinda thought they profiled candidates for a God complex? Something that would show if a potential police officer was more interested in a power trip than public service?

I know they worry night and day that they will be killed by a scumbag and it reinforces the "us versus them" attitude.

I wish I was able to give a cop the benefit of doubt, but I can at best, remain neutral.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 05, 2011, 10:06 AM:
 
Officers from different places have different agendas, IMO. Cops from small towns have nothing better to do than harass the general public and pick and choose who they harass. Cops from larger cities are usually responding to threatening calls and don't have time to harass. They don't even blink at speeders or people that run red lights...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 05, 2011, 10:28 AM:
 
not bad, smithers!
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 05, 2011, 10:35 AM:
 
"They don't even blink at speeders or people that run red lights..."
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Wrong. The fines that are collected from those violators is called revenue. The poor guy who rolls through a stop sign on his way to work receives harsher punishment than the criminals caught breaking in to a building. It is called "cash register justice". Do you believe that seat belt checks are in the name of safety? Wrong. Cash register justice is at work again.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on June 05, 2011, 11:04 AM:
 
Remember, mandatory seat-belt laws are for our safety. Why don't most children's school buses have them then?
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on June 05, 2011, 11:12 AM:
 
Thanks Leonard...

Mr. Cronk esquire. Some larger municipalities receive federal funding for community policing and state funding due to population, more so than the small townships or villages which receive their funding from millages an taxpayer dollars. The small county sheriff or township cop is more likely to spend his time making revenue stops, as you call then, such as seatbelt, speeding, drunk driving and other traffic related violations.

The Detroit police, however, will watch you speed through a red light and shrug. Different agendas. The next time I see a Detroit cop sitting in a speed trap, I'll speed just to see if he's awake. They don't have time for that petty shit.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on June 05, 2011, 11:34 AM:
 
Careful Smitters, they'll spy on you for the next six months and probably find where you planned your crime spree right here on HM.......don't worry though...that stuff will be in the warrant for your wife and surviving family members to read later.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 05, 2011, 12:17 PM:
 
I have a question for Lance.

I remember reading some time ago about the issue involving your son. I'd be pissed too if ANYONE messed with my family.

You stepped up and told me how you dealt with it. YOU did good on your approach in my opinion.

The question is, at the end of this issue did you feel you ran into political roadblocks, or did things go pretty smooth in reality?

Smithers is spot on that the big city guys don't have time to deal with the small stuff.

So is Mr.Cronk on the "cash register justice".

[ June 05, 2011, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 05, 2011, 04:41 PM:
 
"at the end of this issue did you feel you ran into political roadblocks, or did things go pretty smooth in reality?"

In short, no. I've been involved with local government-type stuff for more than two decades, and my brother is County Administrator. He was cc'd a copy of the letter I sent to the City Manager and, two days after I sent it, complimented me on the way it was written. In his words, more or less, it's one thing to file a bitch against the police chief. It's entirely something different to include four pages of documentation supporting your complaint and explaining why you are upset.

How an issue gets dealt with depends in large part on how you approach it and who you take it to. In this case, I could have just sent it and bitched, but I knew the guy would screw up. I waited patiently and, when he did, struck. I knew the City Manager was under a lot of fire for dismissing the guy, so a lengthy comprehensive letter supporting his actions and giving him what he needed to further support his position was, at the very least, very welcome. The City Commissioners were wishy-washy at first about whether they should overrule, but the information I provided them gave them what they needed to form the opinions they had of the Chief's judgment, in general. I included my opinions on how they should go about hiring the replacement and they did as I suggested.

Related but different, was the way the high school Principal handled my son when he expelled him from high school due to academic problems associated to his injury. I spent many, many hours on the phone with state and federal investigators for their respective Dept.'s of Education and got my ducks in a row. The federal investigators determined that 18 different violations of the Americans with Disabilities Act had been committed by the Principal in how he treated us, but he was already being fired for moral turpitude, so I let it ride. Besides, we were outside the 6-month filing period, so I was, again, patient. When the new SUperintendent of School and new School Board members were sworn in, I sent them a three page letter outlining the civil crimes that had been committed, including references to federal laws and notations of the various clauses that were violated, and informed that that the school district was looking at possible as much as $180,000 if federal fines for the violations that had been discovered, but that I didn't hold the school or the board responsible. Culpability was with the Principal and our students should not have to suffer the punishment of his actions. I received a letter from the new Superintendent of School assuring me that all his administrators were reviewing state and federal guidelines pertaining to how students with medical conditions should be dealt with and his personal assurance that nothing like that which happened to my son would ever be tolerated in our school district again.

Identify your goals, collect information, confirm what you put together and forward it to people who are in the position to make decisions and state what will happen if those responsible are not held accountable. Again, and I think I posed this earlier, never pick a fight with a guy who buys ink by the barrel, and the internet makes anyone a journalist with a bully pulpit.

My son is no angel. He has made his share of mistakes like any young man. I don't expect him to be treated special just because of who I am or the fact that I'm willing to step up and stand up. But, I expect him to be treated fairly and in accordance with the law as it pertains to his civil rights, as well as any other young person out there. Most cops are good guys with good intentions. The ones I go after are those who screw with people because they have the means. The latest little young 'un was sniffing bicycle seats at the high school three years ago and he needs to learn the ways of the real world really fast, IMO.

In short, Ken, City Manager and City Commissioners took everything to heart, acted on it and have treated me with the utmost respect ever since. You can fight city hall when you're right. As Eisenhower once said, "Never engage an adversary except from a position of strength."
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 05, 2011, 04:53 PM:
 
I'll drink to that Lance. Yes I think I have a few barrels of ink left from back in the day.
 

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Posted by kodiak61 (Member # 3255) on June 06, 2011, 07:20 PM:
 
http://www.pixiq.com/article/MIami%20Beach%20Police%20Ordered%20Videographer%20At%20Gunpoint%20To%20Hand%20Over

This seems unusually harsh, thus why I linked it.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on March 08, 2012, 04:49 PM:
 
Saw this and just HAD to fire this topic up again. The plot thickens....

Related Arrests

Three people connected to Jose Guerena, the man shot and killed during a SWAT raid in May 2011, were arrested on drug and money laundering charges Thursday morning.

Pauline Guerena, Jose Guerena’s sister in law, is facing charges of illegal control of enterprise, marijuana possession for sale, fraudulent schemes and artifice and five counts of money laundering.

Pauline Guerena is married to Jose Guerena’s brother, Alejandro.

Jose Celaya, Pauline Guerena’s father, was booked on suspicion of illegal control of enterprise, marijuana possession for sale and two counts of money laundering.

Denise Ruiz, Pauline Guerena’s sister, was booked on suspicion of illegal control of enterprise, and two counts each of money laundering and marijuana possession for sale.

The three were booked into the Pima County Jail. Bond is set at $25,000 for Pauline Guerena and Ruiz and $50,000 for Jose Celaya.

The three were arrested at the corner of South Camino Verde and West Oklahoma Street as they were leaving their home, said Deputy Dawn Barkman, a Pima County Sheriff’s Department spokeswoman.

Deputies found more than $30,000 in the two vehicles the suspects were in, she said.

Deputies are waiting to execute a search warrant at the home in the 6200 block of West Oklahoma Street, she said.

Jose Guerena, 26, was shot on May 5 by members of the Pima County Regional SWAT team who were serving a search warrant as part of a drug-trafficking investigation in the 7100 block of South Redwater Drive.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 08, 2012, 05:10 PM:
 
This comes as no surprise, Jim.

Thanks for posting it.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 08, 2012, 11:15 PM:
 
I have no opinion, either way? Yes, sounds like some of the reporting was factual.

However, $30,000 and the relatives involved does not change my opinion of the raid last year. This seems to indicate that the dead guy might have been involved in drugs, or something, but the raid was fucked up then and I see no reason to change my opinion. Interesting, none the less.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by bucksnort (Member # 202) on March 09, 2012, 05:22 AM:
 
Here is an article from this morning's Tucson Liberal rag.
http://azstarnet.com/news/local/crime/arrested-in-drug-case-connected-to-man-killed-in-swat/article_40a58e56-7015-5e8d-9feb-340647b33121.html
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 09, 2012, 06:37 AM:
 
Of course this kills any wrongful death suits that could've been filed.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 09, 2012, 06:40 AM:
 
All of this stuff just makes my point clearer and clearer.......those cops murdered an innocent man and are still to this day trying to associate him with these other people and their crimes......FACT..they never hung a single criminal act on Jose G. but since he had family members who were criminals it MUST justify killing him in cold blood over a SEARCH warrant.

Pay atten. NOTHING has changed!! He is not a turd that needed shot just because he has questionable family members and quite frankly I'm insulted by this bullshit!!!
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 09, 2012, 02:34 PM:
 

quote:

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FACT..they never hung a single criminal act on Jose G.

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Of course this kills any wrongful death suits that could've been filed.

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Yea, so not only did they murder the poor guy now they try to smear him afterwards so as to make themselves look better in public view.

Even after several months of trying to fabricate wrong doing and justify their actions LE is still caught with their proverbial pants down....again.

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Hey you're entitled to your opinion JD.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on March 09, 2012, 04:28 PM:
 
Jason, did you write this?

The whole story!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 09, 2012, 05:33 PM:
 
So, Seal Team 6 was involved?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 09, 2012, 06:39 PM:
 
Lets say Jose the turd was still alive 49, what would he be charged with?

Jim, that's crazy talk in that story.....sounds like something LE would write.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on March 09, 2012, 08:30 PM:
 

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Lets say Jose the turd was still alive 49, what would he be charged with?

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Have there been any disciplinary actions against the cops that "murdered" him?

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Or would it be your duty to expose this wrong to keep this from happing to future citizens?

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Its been awhile but didn't the search warrant that was served only turn up a dead man?

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what is so difficult about this family tree that LE can't grasp the reality that they shot a drug dealers brother?

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49!!!!! What are you doing? Why are you quoting prt of the article OUT OF CONTEXT? You just made it sound like that stuff was found in the murder victims house

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Police need to be held accountable, even if they made a mistake, just like Joe Sixpack, the civilian, would be charged and held.
perhaps they would be more thorough before busting down doors and spraying lead.

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That's a good point Dan, and this same idea has had me thinking about this case. Why you you suppose the Feds haven't brought these SWAT officers up on civil rights violations?

[ March 10, 2012, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 10, 2012, 01:51 PM:
 
Well, it could be because there has been a lot of covering their ass going on?

It just seems to me that they should admit what they did was a huge mistake. Whoever "planned" the raid should be answering questions under the floodlight and demoted if not charged with incompetence.

Sorry all of this seems to get dumped in your lap, 49. I don't think you appreciate the depth of resentment toward heavy handed police procedures.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on March 10, 2012, 02:16 PM:
 
4949,
It is hard to say. Could be coverup, not wanting to make another LE agency look bad, professional courtesy, politics, endless options.

We do know one thing, one person has paid the ultimate price. He was judged, tried, convicted, and punished in a matter of seconds.

Again, I am not pointing a finger at you or all LEO's.

[ March 10, 2012, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on March 10, 2012, 05:13 PM:
 
yea , we do dump on 49, he's the only outlet we have for venting, none of this is meant as a personal slam against you 49.

I don't know what goes on internally in a case like this and I suppose it will be kept out of public view as much as possible.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 10, 2012, 09:56 PM:
 
So 49, should they go after great Grandma too? She's "connected" to them all. What happens when one member of a bad family sets off on the straight and narrow, joins the Marines and serves his country?

The cops find nothing "substantial" hell, they found nothing at all 49 but that's the way you cops twist everything around to cover your actions and it'll sound better in the papers.

Charges filed? How about the ATF fiasco where one of your own "brothers" was killed? Where are the charges? Who's head is rolling? Cops on cops? Just doesn't happen, remember ya'll stick up for your own.

Man I'm glad hunting season is out of the way so we can get back to important stuff like cop bashing.
 

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Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on March 11, 2012, 02:35 AM:
 

quote:

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Nearly $100,000 in cash, 30 cellphones, an AK-47 rifle, other guns, ammunition, bulletproof vests, lists with names and dollar amounts, a stolen vehicle and marijuana were seized from Celaya's homes during the May raid, according to Star archives.

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The cops find nothing "substantial" hell, they found nothing at all 49 but that's the way you cops twist everything around to cover your actions and it'll sound better in the papers.

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They found a few minor items, which may or may not have been integral to their investigation. You might want to go back and read some of the old threads, Tom.

Funny, I do pretty good in these threads until you come along and press my buttons. Then I start to lose my cool. I guess you know which buttons to press. But I'm not gonna let that happen again.

And don't think the Feds will cover for local law enforcement. They won't. Case in point, there was a state trooper from NJ who ended up killing a combative drunk driver in the back of a patrol car. This happened years ago, when we were still in high school. The state trooper was brought to trial for murder and acquitted. The Feds stepped in and prosecuted him for Federal Civil Rights violations and he was convicted. He did time in federal prison. You can google search Harry H. Messerlian for the details. On another note, law enforcement officers are the only people in this country who get tried for the same crime twice. The Federal Civil rights violations are the way they get around the double jeopardy issue.

This brings me back to this case, which has received national attention. My second point is, the Feds haven't brought these SWAT officers up on charges. I'm not privy to the inside details of this case, but the most likely explanation for this is lack of culpable evidence.

My own opinion of this mess? I think Guerena had some ties to his criminal family members. How deep these ties were, or how involved he was criminally (if at all) I am unsure of. But I think his family involvement in the drug dealing world caused him to fear for his own family's safety on the morning he got home from the mine and went to sleep. Now some of my coptalk buddies disagree with me vehemently on this part, but I think that Guerena in his half sleep stupor didn't realize there were actually cops at his door and aimed his weapon. This may have been part of the reason he held his fire when he did realize they were cops, other than the fact the weapon was still on "safe." Unfortunately, by the time he could stand down it was too late. I don't think he intended to shoot cops that morning, especially over a search warrant that would have revealed nothing more than a bullet proof vest and some illicit rings he had somehow acquired for his wife. If you recall the earlier threads, some relatives of his had been murdered and were thought to have been murdered by rival drug gang members. This, I believe was Guerena's concern.

Was Guerena a turd? I don't know. Was Guerena an innocent good guy? I don't know. Was he somewhere in between? I don't know but that's how I am rolling with this one for now.

To all the guys here who are being apologetic I do appreciate it, and there are no worries. I know I am not not the most open minded guy in the world, but I try to be and I can understand your frustration. I keep coming around here because I think you are a good bunch of guys at heart.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

[ March 11, 2012, 04:25 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by CCP (Member # 913) on March 11, 2012, 05:26 AM:
 

quote:

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What happens when one member of a bad family sets off on the straight and narrow, joins the Marines and serves his country?

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