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Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on May 17, 2011, 08:19 AM:
 
Dont know if this is posted already...
http://www.foxbusiness.com/on-air/stossel/blog/2011/05/1 6/philly-police-harass-threaten-shoot-man-legally-carrying-gun

[ May 17, 2011, 08:20 AM: Message edited by: Lone Howl ]
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 17, 2011, 08:49 AM:
 
I would wager they will keep their badges.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2011, 10:33 AM:
 
That's scary. And, it is part of the reason why I may never lift a finger to assist, in time of need. Exactly the type of personality that should be screened and weeded out of law enforcement.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 17, 2011, 10:41 AM:
 
Those officers should spend some time here in Arizona. Here in Safford people carry on their way to church.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 17, 2011, 01:07 PM:
 
Koko makes an excellent point. Open carry is common in Arizona. I saw it myself in a McDonalds when I was out there on one of my trips.

Open carry is not common in Philadelphia, hence the problem that Fiorino brought upon himself. This is the crux of the problem, along with inadequate training of the police officers. If open carry is legal in Philly, then the Philly cops should have been made aware of such by their department.

Before you guys jump all over my shit, realize that the cops were not aware of the open carry law. They handled the situation as a "man with gun" call. They obviously didn't know any better, but they probably don't hang out on hunting and handgun forums like some of us do.

I wasn't present, thus I won't comment on the way they handled the situation.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 17, 2011, 02:05 PM:
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-vUYeJXSrA

I listened to the audio on youtube. Sounds to me like the first officer was being fairly reasonable. It was hard to find the proffesionalism between all the f bombs from the following officers though.

The part I liked was when the one cop says he(open carry guy) wouldn't show his hands, and all the others jumped the band wagon and went along with his story. Fuckin' cops!!!(said with the utmost professionalism)
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 17, 2011, 02:47 PM:
 
Although it turned out bad for both the Police and the poor guy who was legally carrying a gun, I can see how easily this can happen. The carry law had recently changed, and the Policeman who stopped the guy was not aware of the new law. We have a new carry law here in Iowa also. I have a permit to carry, but I have been retired for so long that most of the local Policemen don't know me. I carry my .45 concealed because it doesn't make anyone nervous that way.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 17, 2011, 02:52 PM:
 
"If open carry is legal in Philly, then the Philly cops should have been made aware of such by their department."

Sorry to pick on this, Nick, but if I was that guy, I'd find me a lawyer with a big hard on for the Philly PD, own the place when the dust clears, make sure that if they even feign an attempt to defend their actions by stating that they were unaware that open carry was legal in their city, remind them just as they have very likely reminded those they've abused in the past that IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE.

Especially when you ARE the law.

I'd go after a huge sum of money for violating my rights, then offer to settle out half the amount in exchange for the immediate dismissal of every one of those clowns. There is NO excuse for any LEO to use that kind of language in uniform. Those officers contributed exponentially more to the volatility of that situation than the gun owner did and they need to be offered up as examples of how NOT to do your job.

Philly PD is truly a discredit to the profession as a result of this incident.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 17, 2011, 05:02 PM:
 
Lance I can understand your position, ignorance is not an excuse. However, ignorance IS a fact. It happens all the time in LE, they change the rules and it takes time for everyone to become aware of it. I personally wasn't aware this was a new law in Philadelphia (or PA?), a fact which Rich enlightened me of.

I don't disagree there will be a lawsuit, and I don't disagree the city of Philadelphia will pay out.

Edit: I just listened to CrossJ's link. This kid obviously had an axe to grind. He should have just listened to the officers' commands and the whole thing could have been straightened out later. Instead, he chose to challenge the officers, and tried to control the encounter. That's a big mistake. The officers see a weapon, they have every right to make the scene safe prior to sorting out the legalities of the situation. This was Philly, not Phoenix.

Other than that, there will be grounds for an attitude and demeanor complaint.

[ May 17, 2011, 05:43 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 17, 2011, 07:22 PM:
 
Can't say that I disagree, but the young man was very civil in his attempts to not ratchet the situation up any further. Again, the officers are the ones who took matters out of control.

Having said that, age and experience taught me a long time ago that you pick and choose your battles wisely. You can either argue with authority and deal with the issue and its consequences for hours, days, or the rest of your life, or you can just humor authority and the matter is resolved in minutes or less and you can go on about your business. Unfortunately, youth and a lack of life experience often leads young men (and more commonly, young women) to let their tempers and stubbornness get in the way of good old fashioned common sense. That, and being totally unaware that somewhere behind one of those badges is a digital recorder documenting the exchange.

But, a word of advice... civilians can carry concealed recorders, too. And from my own personal experience, they come in very handy. LOL
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 17, 2011, 07:28 PM:
 
If he was not breaking the law, why is this "bringing it on himself" to plainly exercise his rights?

Be it Philly or Timbucktoo. If it's legal, where's the problem. I'm a little surprised the the Sgt didn't know the law, being a supervisor and all.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 17, 2011, 07:35 PM:
 
Lance,

You brought up digital recorders. Wasn't there a guy out east that got busted for recording an LEO. I believe he was on a Motorcycle and the cop was in his personal vehicle. Seems to me there was an arrest for illegal recording, something about both parties not giving permission.

I don't remember all the details and won't pretend to know the laws, being that's not my occupation.

Maybe 4949 remembers this incident, I believe it was Jersey or such.

youtube link

[ May 17, 2011, 07:45 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 17, 2011, 08:10 PM:
 
Not familiar with that one, but in KS, every LEO carries a digital recorder in his/ her pocket, and I never saw them ask for permission from the poor bastard who was guilty until proven innocent.

The more I think about it, this Sgt. needs some retraining. Again, ignorance is no defense on his part. It's HIS JOB to know about changes in the law. Either he dropped the ball on that, or his department did and ended up sending their people into a civil action.

I'm expected to know changes in federal policies and laws that impact my job after the one time my bosses provide us with notice about the changes. It isn't like PA or Philly changed that law overnight. Those changes take weeks or months to take effect. Maybe the guy was too busy dropping F-bombs to pay attention in continuing education class? Again, no excuses. Just unprofessional.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 17, 2011, 08:43 PM:
 
Fuck that 49!!! You know gawdamned well if a citizen addressed an officer with that sort of language they would be arrested for some imaginary crime, forget ignorance, cops in general are out of control, I dont give a fuck if they treated it like "man with gun" they flat out LIED, you know, when cops don't want to get in trouble so they change a few facts....like the fuckhead that pulled up 2 minutes later and announced that he wouldn't show his hands and wouldn't get down or the original officer that you can hear on the radio saying that the guy wouldn't cooperate and was argueing when you can clearly tell from the audio that those things aren't true.....if the job is too much for you then take up baby sitting. I don't need cops to protect me but I do need protection from the cops.

And since when is it a fucking crime to speak in a level headed and calm manner and since when is it ok to yell SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! to a citizen who calmly asked if he was under arrest?

You can defend that bullshit on your copper forum but that shit wont fly in the real world!!

I take back what I said about not needing cops.....traffic control is a must.....but absolutely no badges, guns or hand cuffs!!

And where the fuck did you get the idea that this kid had an axe to grind....are we listening to the same audio......he was never a smartass, never raised his voice, never was he beligerant in the audio at all....very calm and cooperative in contrast to the methed up cops screaming profanities and telling him to shut the fuck up every time he tried to answer one of their questions.

THIS is why people are sick to death of smartasses with a badge and not only that.....take a look at how you defend these fucking morons even AFTER you heard the audio and read the story. Now he's being harrassed because of the audio.......what a surprise.

Sorry coppers but this shit don't fly anywhere but on the copper boards, nobody else is buying.

I'm sure most cops are good but dont defend this sort of shit.

[ May 17, 2011, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
 

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Posted by nd coyote killer (Member # 40) on May 17, 2011, 08:45 PM:
 
4949 if i was you i would be screaming at the top of my lungs to have those guys badges. That is the kind of abuse of authority and unprofessionalism that give cops a bad name.

I believe someone just hit the lotto. The DA can try to charge him with rape for all i care if he wants but nothing is going to stick and cover up just how bad that actually was.

Seriously it's now illegal to record yourself walking down the street?? how funny was that!!!LOL

"He's recording it....thats illegal too" WTF!!!
 

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Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on May 17, 2011, 09:02 PM:
 
yes, don't ever challenge authority.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 17, 2011, 09:07 PM:
 
That shit might fly in a communist country George but gawdammit we aint commies!! Close, but not yet.
We have the right to challenge any fucking thing we want to.....unless a cop decides we shouldn't.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 17, 2011, 10:02 PM:
 
I seem to remember that it is illegal to record anybody....in Maryland, I believe?

But look, out here a holstered handgun does not constitute a threat. Furthermore, since they officially agreed that it's legal in Philadelphia, there is no excuse for these morons not being aware of it. I mean why do they sell holsters, in that city and that state? To wear around the house? I'm kinda shocked that open carry is such a BFD, in that state and that city. I would think that little factoid would be big news down at the donut shop?

Out here, cops don't use that kind of language, either.

49, it's understandable to stick up for the brotherhood, but how did you arrive at the opinion that the citizen had an attitude? He seemed to be the calmest and in control of anybody involved, and that's totally backward. Those professionals need a little reeducation in proper command presence. <sheesh>

gh/lb

edit: did I hear that right? Don't ever challenge authority? It's our duty to challenge authority, Amigo.

[ May 17, 2011, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 18, 2011, 05:40 AM:
 
Power corrupts.
Absolute power corrupts, absolutely.

That was an utterly despicable display of authority gone waaaaay over the edge.

To protect & serve? MY ass!
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 18, 2011, 05:47 AM:
 

 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 18, 2011, 06:51 AM:
 

quote:

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It happens all the time in LE, they change the rules and it takes time for everyone to become aware of it.

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quote:

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So, a guy with a holstered handgun, changing a friggin' tire on the friggin' turnpike gets the " high risk stop concept to the extreme", with a shotgun, held by a nervous cop with an itchy trigger finger?

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quote:

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Anyway, what would be wrong with the cop approaching the kid with the holstered gun and asking a couple matter of fact questions?

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Absolutely nothing would be wrong with this Leonard. Like I tried to explain, other cops may feel differently, depending on their experiences. One of my above posts did say there were some training issues involved with the encounter.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2011, 03:02 PM:
 
Yes, I know, 49. I just didn't know how radically different it is back east.

It appears to me that some cops would be more than happy if they were the only one's packing heat? I just can't get over the level of paranoia. Do you know how many firearms are in private hands, in this country?

What is a citizen supposed to do, keep his handgun buried in the back yard and dig it up once a year (after dark) to admire it, spray a little Break Free on it and put it back before the neighbor calls the cops? Hmm? Would that be open carry, or better known in Philadelphia as reckless endangerment?

Yikes, I am not going there! They are a hell of a lot more tolerant in Canada, where you aren't even allowed to have handguns, but they have them anyway.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 18, 2011, 03:41 PM:
 
I don't have any problems with them securing the situation. The presence of the firearm constituted an unknown and a possible threat until more information was gathered. My problem lies with the unprofessional conduct of the officers involved. Bad enough that the first one began losing control of his emotions as the encounter evolved, but upon arrival of his backups, they immediately were "f" this, "F" that, and the intensity of the situation magnified exponentially, not because of the subject being checked, but because of the so-called professional officers. Who was going to diffuse the diffusers?

I see your example and offer one of my own. I was in college. Getting my degree to try to become a game warden. My brother was senior road deputy for the Dickinson County SO here in KS and offered to let me do a ride along. Long story less long, we rec'd a call about people looting a warehouse, then heading toward Abilene on US 40 highway. Bro tells me to hold on tight when we meet them on the highway - us going 70 westbound, them going 80 eastbound. Big bro holds just about every driving record at the KS Law Enforcement Training Center and, one year, beat the highway patrol's best driver's nose to nose on the EVOC and the next ten minutes were hair raising. He slammed on the brakes, jammed the patrol car into reverse, spun us around and in about fifteen seconds, we were well over the century mark according to the radar readout in front of me. We took a curve with a 50 mph limit at 106 catching up to these people, another deputy met us crossing the city limits into Abilene at 80 in a 35. Between the other deputy and us, we ran the car we were chasing into the ditch. Bro jumps out. Orders the driver out of the car at gun point. She ignores him as she and her male passenger rassle over something on the seat between them. He orders her again to show her hands and step from the vehicle - a tan Cougar. She looks at him and resumes her rassling. Bro tells the other officer to stay on the passenger and Bro uses the butt of his duty weapon to take out the driver's side window out which gets her attention. As does him reaching in, grabbing her by the hair on her head and dragging her out the window an onto the ground. He places the cuffs on her, picks her up and deposits her face first on the hood of our patrol car and tells me to keep an eye on her. He then walks around to the passenger side of that Cougar and orders the long hair sitting there to put his hands on the dash board where they can be seen. The guy says "Fuck you" and reaches for the middle of the seat. Bro reaches through the half-opened window and grabs this dirtbag by his hair and drags him out, too, breaking the other window. Throws him on the ground and sits on him with the muzzle of his weapon against the guy's head as he calls asks for ETA on his other backup.

Turns out these two upstanding citizens were fighting over the woman's purse, which we quickly found to contain a .22 semiauto.

My brother was excited, he was angry, he as flat out pissed and he was out of breath. He was also 6'4" and 285 pounds and at no time during that exchange did he lose his temper or use any words of phrases that would be considered as offensive in mixed company, so I know from personal experience that it can be done.

BTW, I had a whole new respect for my big brother starting right there and then. He was impressive and very good at what he did.

In December, I was attacked by a black lab/ shepard on my route. For most of two years, I'd been warning this lady that, given the chance, that dog would bite me. She repeatedly told me that he was "all bark". Yeah, sure. The dog blew out the door, saw me and in he came. Took a face full of pepper spray and on his fourth try, got hold of my left forearm. With his jaws clamped around my forearm, I literally stuick the nozzle of the pepper spray can in his nose and mouth and filled to overflowing before he backed off. Even at that, he made three more attempts at me as I switched to my back up spray can before the owner got him pulled off and secured into her car. She began to apologize to me and asking me what happened, "I can't believe he did that!", etc., etc., and she wanted to discuss it with me. I was pissed. Really pissed, and more than a little bit shook up. This was an 80# dog. But, the USPS does NOT tolerate us using profanity in the presence of customers, as much as I wanted to. I stepped back into my training in emergency stuff and gathered myself while she ranted in my face before telling her, "Be quiet. I do not and cannot discuss this with you at this point. Return to your front door and wait there for the police to get your statement. After that, you can apologize all you want."

What I wanted to say was, "SON OF A BITCH! How many times have I told you that your piece of s^$!t dog would bite me, you stupid b*%#h? Go get that piece of *&%$ and bring him her so I can f(*%#ng kill him with my bare f&*$#&g hands, which is exactly what I plan on doing right before I kick the living s&%#t out of you for being so f*%#$&!g stupid. Look at my f&%#* ARM!!!" (etc., etc.).

But, I didn't. It can be done when your job is on the line, even when you have every reason to want to and you have, by all rights, earned the right to do so. Now, if another letter carrier, facing similar circumstances, chose to conduct himself in a less flattering and less professional manner than I did, I sure as hell wouldn't be defending him simply because we both do the same kind of work. I'd be more than happy to point out what a dumbass he was and agree that he was due some serious disciplinary action. Like I said, I've seen quite a few encounters between Kansas LEO's and bad guys who were known to be bad guys and never did I see or hear language like those officers used. Crikey, this is where Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols built the OK City bomb, I was there the night DKSO escorted the FBI and Terry Nichols to our jail, and I was there the next morning when the FBI trotted him out to their car to transfer him to Wichita. That was a very disturbing fellow, but the LEO's treated him like a VIP because they were professional. Then again, we're just a bunch of hayseed Andy Taylor's hereabouts. LOL I will say that I did see a U.S. Marshall cuss at a guy once, This particular Marshall had just gotten back from four years in Colombia chasing druggies and he was rtough looking. He'd been in DK County trying to snag a posse commitatus guy who refused to payu his taxes. They got tyhis old farmer and brought him to the detention center while I was on duty at dispatch. This old guy starts cussing these two marshals so the one goes up to him, grabs him just beneath his jaw and squeezes real hard as he says, "I told you you had the right to shut the fuck up. I suggest you do it." LOL He did.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2011, 04:18 PM:
 
Damn, Lance! Were you ever the Librarian or the dog catcher or the trash collector? Meter reader? Dentist? If so, that would make it just about every single job in local government.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 18, 2011, 04:46 PM:
 
Leonard, I know your questions are rhetorical, and I wouldn't have answers to them anyway. Rest assured that anyone who knows me as a person knows that I love guns. Things are different here in the northeast though. I think that is part of the disconnect. I was just trying to get the guys to understand there is another side to the issue.

Lance, your brother sounds like my kind of cop. He, like my friend Steven are the kind of cops I want backing me up on a hot call. Trigger happy or not...Lol.

One thing though...I never defended the Philly cops for their unprofessional language. As I have stated, this is grounds for an attitude and demeanor complaint. My buddy Steve had to go to "Charm school" for his demeanor, BTW. Lol..

[ May 18, 2011, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 18, 2011, 05:00 PM:
 
LOL...Lance thats a great story, personally I think it would be hilarious to hear a mail person throw an F bomb every once in a while. However theres a big difference between swearing at someone over a dog bite and taking part in what we hear on that audio link.

49....I understand and appreciate your approach to this subject in the face of the ass chewin you've been gettin.....that is the kind of professionalism these guys need to be educated in, although I disagree with some of your points.

Controlling a situation doesnt mean screaming and taking someone to the ground....that's the sort of behavior that comes from someone who has never had a good ass whoopin.....but has one comin. Totally unacceptable!! A man changing a tire with a handgun is a threat.......fuck man.....you could imagine stuff about anybody on a public street and take them down too with that logic.....why are cops nervous around guns? How hard was it to tell that he had a flat tire? YOU WERE WRONG, of course WE all know that but go ahead and keep digging your hole deeper.

Just because you have 22 years as a cop doesnt mean you know any more about people than any one else.....sure you get to deal with some shit heads but if you cant differentiate any more than maybe it's time to find another career. That kid did nothing wrong, nothing illegal...unless it's illegal to talk calmly...and you know it. The guy changing the tire did nothing wrong, as you stated "he could be a hitman" well shit 49 theres a lot we dont know about people that doesnt give you the right to stick a shotgun in the guys face.....WTF?

You guys get a charge out of it plain and simple, just like you unintentionally mentioned when you stated....................... "I will say one thing though, I wouldn't want to be on the business end of a shotgun with Steven behind the trigger. That could have gotten ugly real quick....................see 49, you're not the only one that knows stuff about people,you get just as much of a kick out of it as those shit heads you just have a little better self control but as is made obvious by your posts....you get a rush just like these guys did. The general public isnt your typical meth head, we're educated and understand way more than you cops give us credit for, in fact it scares the shit out of me that cops would be afraid of guns......WOW!! And we're the ones that turn to YOU for protection.....OK
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2011, 05:39 PM:
 
Guys, he's all we got, and he didn't do it, but it is nice to look inside their head once in a while. The truth is, cops really don't trust armed citizens, they are a threat.

So, when we get this type of response, we need to learn from it. You know, what not to do, while still asserting our rights. I'm probably too assertive, but dammit, I want respect, I expect it.

We are fortunate to have 49, unscrew his head and see what makes him tick. I just wonder if our collective point of view makes a dent in his attitude? I would hope that everybody gets something from these discussions? Am I kidding myself, or no?

gh/lb

PS del 2
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 18, 2011, 05:50 PM:
 
You're just fooling yourself LB, if we were having this conversation face to face with 49 he would have called for backup by now and have his knee in the back of your head and his buddy would have a shotgun in my face and that would just be for saying that we have rights, God forbid he caught a glimpse of that .45 in your pocket.....could you imagine.....it would be a blur of elbows and assholes and F-bombs.....we'd spend the next 20 yrs in the PA pen. which I hear is worse than any Mexican prison.......I'm just sayin.....
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 18, 2011, 05:51 PM:
 
JD,

I think we have agreement that the language is counterproductive. As for the fear of guns, I guess you have to wear a badge for a while and see the "10 o'clock" crowd, which is what we used to call people who thought the world all went to bed when they did, at 10 o'clock. LOL When your experience with guns is pretty much 99.8% hunting, plinking and that kind of gun play, you're left to wonder why anyone would fear a gun. But, when you are dealing with the kind of folks and a culture none of us willingly invite into our lives on purpose, where guns are weapons of both offense and defense, things look a little bit different. I went from law enforcement to EMS because I didn't like the attitude I was developing toward people. I got cynical very quickly, judgmental of people who didn't always deserve it. I still wore a badge, but the uniform was different and I wore rescue shears and a stethoscope rather than a sidearm. People were literally dying to see me coming up the front steps - most times. I was much happier with people being glad to see me rather than the other way around. But, the risk and threat was always there. First priority upon arrival? Scene security, regardless of whether you're in a PD uni, EMS garb, or turnouts.

Nick, here's another story about Brad that I think about often and chuckle. It was the night I met my future boss in EMS. I had never even thought about going into rescue, other than the times I spent on accident scenes as a firefighter, but I was partnered with a regular deputy and we were called to a guy barricaded in a 6-plex apartment building - 2 in the basement, 2 on the ground floor and 2 upstairs. This guy was drunk, mouthy and threatening to bring the entire building down. Didn't have any weapons as far as we knew but had turned the gas on the stove on and was threatening to light her off. LOL Shaved head, no shirt, blue jeans. We were the third unit on scene and soon, a couple troopers and the Undersheriff showed up to take command. By this time, big bro was doing drug enforcement and he and his partner responded in their unmarked unit/ plainclothes, arriving about an hour after everyone else got there. I was still relatively new to the whole idea of being the po-po and was admittedly somewhat nervous and apprehensive when my supervisor assigned me to cover the back door by myself. I asked him before going to my post what to do if the guy came running out and he just smiled and said, "Guess you'll figure that out when it happens." That was a lot of help.

At one point, I was at the bottom of the back steps, kind crouched down staying comfortable with my portable turned down and shaking like a cat shittin' peach seeds about "what if?". LOL Then, the door opens and the guy starts out the screen door in a hurry. He takes one look at me and stops as he says, "Shit!" I was thinking the same thing and did the only thing I could think to do. I smiled at him, stood and squared my shoulders as I put my right hand on the .357 S&W on my hip. He reconsidered and I was damned glad he did.

Big bro arrives shortly after that and gets a report as to what is going on. I'd been recalled to the front of the building so the IC could hear what I'd seen back there and while I'm standing there, Brad walks up, tells the Undersheriff that "this is bullshit. We're going in and dragging him out." Boss says, "OK?"

The Fire Department was there because of the threat of a gas explosion and they still had some hoses strung out. Well, Brad and I were both firefighters on our hometown FD at the time, so hose play was something we were familiar with, too. Brad grabs a 1-3/4 inch attack line off the ground which is the size most department use to go after a house on fire and tells his partner from the drug task force to stay on his six and start pushing hose. He goes to the door and stands off to the side where the guy can't see him and calls him to come to the door so they can talk. The guy comes walking up to the door and starts talking all big as hell when Brad hits him square in the middle of his hairless little chest with a straight stream at attack pressure of about 140 pounds pressure right through the screen door. The screen door goes into the apartment and it and that poor bastard went skooching through the living room and clear into the kitchen before he was stopped by the kitchen cabinets with Brad and company right on top of him, hose and cuffs in hand. That was that.

In another instance, one of my best friends, who was a road deputy at the time, was on a routine stop at 2 in the morning, by himself about 6 miles from a small city in the SE corner of the county. As he approached the car, the driver gets out and starts toward him. J told the guy to get back into his car but before he could react, the guy jumped him and was trying to get his duty weapon out of his holster. J will tell you to this day that he thought he was good as dead. He recalls pushing the key on his collar mike and yelling that he was down and needed assistance. Then, by his accounting, what seemed like an hour fighting in the middle of the highway, his right hand pushing his .45 into the holster while this guy was trying to take him off his feet and pull it out. Then, he says he hears this engine racing as it approaches, followed by the squalling of tires. What that was, was Brad who was in the area in his unmarked Isuzu Rodeo on drug task force work and just thought he oughtta head that way. According to the radio and dashcam video, Brad got his car stopped and bailed out, charged J and this guy who were upright, rassling over J's gun just to the left of the patrol car's front driver's side corner and he performed this textbook perfect tackle, grabbing both of them up in his arms around their waists, lifting them up and taking them both through the air, landing with both him and J on top of the dirtbag on the pavement. Brad jumped up, J rolled off, and they waited for EMS to come haul that dumbass to the hospital for a broken arm, a broken clavicle, and a half dozen broken ribs from the tackle. The next day, I went to see how J was doing and he told me that he has always respected my brother, but damn, was he glad to see that big sumbitch. LOL

Glad to see all that beating on me as kids paid off.

Elbee,

Nope. Never dog catcher, nor librarian. I've lived an interesting life for a small town boy whose never traveled very far. Wore a badge and even had to pull my weapon on a couple people but never shot it anywhere but at the range (thank God), was a firefighter and have been in a bunch of burning houses which is, IMO, something every man should experience in their lives 'cause it is a RUSH, been inside cars treating victims while FD cuts the car off them around me with the JAWS in the middle of I-70 more than once, delivered a couple babies - one in a lady's bathroom shower, did CPR on more than one SIDS baby just to help the mama come out the other side of that tragedy knowing everything was done for her baby, cared for and transported people burned so badly from house fires that you wouldn't have known them if you were their kin, saved my brother in law's life once when he was overcome by engine fumes and found unconscious when I was on duty, sent other guys - husbands and daddies - into burning houses which is scary as shit - moreso than going in myself, been blown out of a barn door when the inside flashed over and exploded (oops), took my wife/ then-girlfriend to a helicopter crash when our dinner was interrupted by the crash of an OH-56 Scout helo escorting a trio of Apaches (fun for me, very traumatic for her), done CPR on a couple hundred people, including people with whom I was very close, held bald eagles, golden eagles, and hundreds of other animals in my hands that few people even get close to, when all were alive and very much kicking, made a name for myself doing what I like - writing - and became friends with some of the greatest predator men in the world. Even shook the hands of a few. All in all, it's been a good ride so far. Only thing I'm missing is a tour of duty on SEAL Team 6. Oh well. Do they recruit old, balding, fat guys?

(I usually get paid for writing this much.)
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2011, 06:17 PM:
 
I'd love to, Lance. But, retired, fixed income, clipping coupons, etc. I can barely keep the doors open here. You understand, don't you? I'm not ungrateful though. Thanks.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 18, 2011, 07:52 PM:
 
The problem is respect. Both sides want it and your side has the badge, DA and judge. We both have a gun, that's a given. I can see where you need to control the stop but doing so in a professional manner does not constitute pointing a gun at a pedestrian and calling him junior. Sounds like "make my day" and believe me someone will eventually.

Coming from Jersy, is it true that a few years ago, what 60% of your force was dirty and had charges filed on them? And you want us to respect your "orders"?

The dude may not have been very smart but he was smarter than the responding officers, at least he knew the law and he will get a check.

The old joke still holds true, "Be nice, be professional but have a plan to kill everyone you meet". They just forgot the Be nice and professional part.

A quick story that shows respect, A man was drinking and knew he was going to jail. The officer was doing the usual "I'm in control" part as this guy was an older man. Anyway this guy had enough and told him yep he was drunk and going to jail but he'd better not lay a finger on him... he wound up kicking the shit out of a few cops when our sheriff pulled up and took control. He simply called him by name and asked if he was ready to go to jail? The guy responded that yes he was but he wasn't riding in the back seat.

RESPECT goes both ways.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 18, 2011, 07:58 PM:
 

quote:

---

Nope. Never dog catcher, nor librarian. I've lived an interesting life for a small town boy whose never traveled very far. Wore a badge and even had to pull my weapon on a couple people but never shot it anywhere but at the range (thank God), was a firefighter and have been in a bunch of burning houses which is, IMO, something every man should experience in their lives 'cause it is a RUSH, been inside cars treating victims while FD cuts the car off them around me with the JAWS in the middle of I-70 more than once, delivered a couple babies - one in a lady's bathroom shower, did CPR on more than one SIDS baby just to help the mama come out the other side of that tragedy knowing everything was done for her baby, cared for and transported people burned so badly from house fires that you wouldn't have known them if you were their kin, saved my brother in law's life once when he was overcome by engine fumes and found unconscious when I was on duty, sent other guys - husbands and daddies - into burning houses which is scary as shit - moreso than going in myself, been blown out of a barn door when the inside flashed over and exploded (oops), took my wife/ then-girlfriend to a helicopter crash when our dinner was interrupted by the crash of an OH-56 Scout helo escorting a trio of Apaches (fun for me, very traumatic for her), done CPR on a couple hundred people, including people with whom I was very close, held bald eagles, golden eagles, and hundreds of other animals in my hands that few people even get close to, when all were alive and very much kicking, made a name for myself doing what I like - writing - and became friends with some of the greatest predator men in the world. Even shook the hands of a few. All in all, it's been a good ride so far. Only thing I'm missing is a tour of duty on SEAL Team 6. Oh well. Do they recruit old, balding, fat guys?

---

quote:

---

Controlling a situation doesnt mean screaming and taking someone to the ground....that's the sort of behavior that comes from someone who has never had a good ass whoopin.....but has one comin. Totally unacceptable!! A man changing a tire with a handgun is a threat.......fuck man.....you could imagine stuff about anybody on a public street and take them down too with that logic.....why are cops nervous around guns? How hard was it to tell that he had a flat tire? YOU WERE WRONG, of course WE all know that but go ahead and keep digging your hole deeper

---

quote:

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Just because you have 22 years as a cop doesnt mean you know any more about people than any one else.....sure you get to deal with some shit heads but if you cant differentiate any more than maybe it's time to find another career. That kid did nothing wrong, nothing illegal...unless it's illegal to talk calmly...and you know it. The guy changing the tire did nothing wrong, as you stated "he could be a hitman" well shit 49 theres a lot we dont know about people that doesnt give you the right to stick a shotgun in the guys face.....WTF?

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quote:

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You guys get a charge out of it plain and simple, just like you unintentionally mentioned when you stated....................... "I will say one thing though, I wouldn't want to be on the business end of a shotgun with Steven behind the trigger. That could have gotten ugly real quick....................see 49, you're not the only one that knows stuff about people,you get just as much of a kick out of it as those shit heads you just have a little better self control but as is made obvious by your posts....you get a rush just like these guys did. The general public isnt your typical meth head, we're educated and understand way more than you cops give us credit for, in fact it scares the shit out of me that cops would be afraid of guns......WOW!! And we're the ones that turn to YOU for protection.....OK

---

It seems like you are the only one getting an adrenaline rush off this thread, JD. You like to throw a lot of stones around here. If that's how you get your jollies then that's great. You aren't hurting anyone for the most part, and you liven up the place here a bit. Like I said, I do like you even though you take it too far sometimes. But I will tell you, I would have stepped in in defence of Tim had he not made the off color comments about Lance's family. You see, I could not stick up for Tim with that black cloud hanging over his head. Tim knows how I feel about this, by the way, because we corresponded on email. But I am starting to wonder why you like to cause trouble here, and you are starting to impress me as one of those guys that needs a "whipping boy" to pick on. There is often one like you in every group. But I hope I am wrong in my assessment this time. Really.

[ May 18, 2011, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 18, 2011, 08:16 PM:
 
Okay Tom, I was typing as you posted.

I don't know the stats for corrupt cops in the northeast, or NJ in particular. If the number is 60% as you say, then that is a disgrace. It doesn't mean much to me though, cuz I am honest.

Yeah I know, respect goes both ways. I can throw some stories about respect back at you, but I won't cuz it will sound like I am tooting my own horn. What I can tell you, is that I do treat people with dignity and respect. I will give you one story on that...
We were looking for a guy we had a warrant on. The guy beat feet on us before we could get to him in time. We had called a dog out to track him, but the dog lost the trail. We spent the better part of a ten hour day (we were on ten hour shifts back then) but we couldn't find him. Well, me being me , I had to keep looking. I passed a house where a guy looked like he was checking the crab grass in his lawn, but something didn't look right to me. I got out of my patrol car and approached him on foot. The guy looks at me and says, "You got me, sir." I said, "What??" He said, "You got me. I am the guy you are looking for." I took him into custody. Well let me tell you, aside from being a perp, he was the nicest guy I talked to all week. He told me he was starving, and asked if I would get him Burger King on the way to jail. I said okay. We went through the drive through, I got food for him and myself, I handcuffed him in front through the seatbelt so he could eat, and the two of us had a meal right there in the BK parking lot.

Moral to the story? I don't know...maybe it's that all cops aren't bad, or cops aren't all bad, or whatever.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 18, 2011, 08:29 PM:
 
Don't worry 49, I don't get offended as easy as you might think, nor do I need a whipping boy but I can appreciate your attempt at discrediting my character when you don't have any facts to present that are pertinent to the discussion, hey it was worth a shot right.

And, I don't need to justify my feelings or actions towards t-bag......I don't care what you and him do or talk about.

Now as for the actual matter at hand, first of all I don't think you're a bad cop and I'm sure that my contempt doesn't mix well with my sick sense of humor although the idea of you putting a knee in the back of LBs neck did make me chuckle.

Anyway, I don't argue the points you just made, you are trained to handle things a certain way, I get it.....my point is.....WHY did ANYTHING need to be done to the guy with the flat, couldn't you just kindly walk up with your gun pointed at him and calmly ask to see his permit? seems reasonable, you got the drop on him.

Why couldn't the same thing be done with the guy in the audio? Why didn't they look at his permit, and where did you get the idea that he didn't cooperate?

Sorry, I just dont buy into the logic of tackle everyone you see and control the situation first, ask questions later.

btw....some of my earlier comments are a little harsh, don't take this as an apology, I'm just admiting that they were a little harsh. I will also admit that you guys are good for more than just traffic control......thats all the warm fuzzy you're gonna get outta me on this one so take it while i'm offering.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 18, 2011, 08:45 PM:
 

quote:

---

Don't worry 49, I don't get offended as easy as you might think, nor do I need a whipping boy but I can appreciate your attempt at discrediting my character when you don't have any facts to present that are pertinent to the discussion, hey it was worth a shot right.

---

quote:

---

Anyway, I don't argue the points you just made, you are trained to handle things a certain way, I get it.....my point is.....WHY did ANYTHING need to be done to the guy with the flat, couldn't you just kindly walk up with your gun pointed at him and calmly ask to see his permit? seems reasonable, you got the drop on him

---

I explained to you why something needed to be done with the tire guy. The safety of my guys is my primary concern. Because I wasn't present to asses the situation, that's the answer I gave them. Here in NJ, they don't give out many handgun carry permits. Usually it is just to armed guards, or armored car drivers. And NJ doesn't honor carry permits from other states,so there was a good chance this guy was a felon. This is a chance I am not willing to take with my men.
If I were there, I WOULD have walked up to the guy and made inquiries, but I wasn't. End of story.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 18, 2011, 08:56 PM:
 
I got ya, didn't realize there was NO permits in NJ, guess I misunderstood that, why didn't you just shoot him and then figure out what he was doing later?

I'm just messin with ya, sorta.

I don't know if I'm ready to apologize just yet.....maybe tomorrow

Hey, I may be an asshole but I've never claimed to not be one... so at least I cant be called a liar.
 

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Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on May 18, 2011, 09:29 PM:
 

quote:

---

they don't give out many handgun carry permits. Usually it is just to armed guards, or armored car drivers.

---

In NJ you need a lic/ permit to buy a gun.

NJ is whacked is all i can say

NJ State police used to get me all the time with a truck full of all sorts of long gun and hand guns.
never gave me any trouble, they new the rout i was on was the roads to up state PA and they had the common sense to know i was a hunter not a outlaw.

old 75 Chevy pick up with a sloppy ass steering well will get you pulled over for drunk driving all the time in the middle of the night

[ May 18, 2011, 09:36 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2011, 09:43 PM:
 
(as I scratch my head)
Why would a felon be stupid enough to change a tire with an openly displayed and holstered handgun? He already is the center of attention because of the flat, so he doubles down, just incase the next patrolman is daydreaming about donuts.

Okay, okay! You see a man changing a tire and he has a handgun and you think to yourself: "NJ doesn't issue many permits so he must be a felon." I just can't comprehend the logic behind that thought process.

All I can say is; there are communist countries with more liberal attitudes towards firearms than New Jersey.

So, you are waiting in line at McDonalds in Phoenix. Everybody in there has a gun but you. Some you can see and some you can't see. How do you feel? Seriously. Anxiety attack? lol

gh/lb

edit: so just to make JD's day, you single me out and put your knee on my neck while you call for backup. I can't wait to hear your explanation and the Phoenix cop's reaction.

[ May 18, 2011, 09:47 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 18, 2011, 10:12 PM:
 
The one thing I want to know about police training is this:

1) You stated that you are trained to use a "Command Voice". Basically it is the "shock and awe" approach man,y military forces are trained to use which is proven to work on untrained or poorly trained individuals. So surely there must be an SOP for when you are in a situation where a citizen knows their rights, is calm and cooperative but does not back down on exercising those rights, and knows the law. What is that SOP?...because it sure seems that these are the divisive things that really piss off HM group which enjoys individual freedom, and cops who are trying to stay alive.

(edited for multiple spelling errors and incorrect quotation)

[ May 19, 2011, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: tlbradford ]
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 18, 2011, 10:19 PM:
 
I wil tell you that with two judges and two attorneys in my immediate family, I would be telling those officers to pound sand.

Don't you think that an open carry law is a pretty important piece of legislation and should be explained immediately and through several channels to the officers? It shouldn't have to trickle down through all the bullshit you talked about. Like others have stated ignorance of the law doesn't fly for a citizen's defense, and it shouldn't fly for these officers.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 18, 2011, 11:03 PM:
 
I'm with Mr Bradford, we had a change within the last year in our carry law that now allows coincidental concealed carry without a permit. If I'm strapped up and put a coat on, I don't need to constantly monitor the status of my weapon to make sure it is visible. It was all over the news, pretty hard to miss when it went into effect. Still, I didn't want to be the first guy who encountered a patrol officer while excersising my new freedom. BUT, how can anybody that makes their living behind a badge not be aware of a change in the laws like that? I would almost bet that every man and woman on the Philly force WAS aware. That's a BIG change in your job environment. I would not be surprised if the Philly LE opposed the new legislation and talk around the station house was that they would continue to do business as usual and demonstrate their displeasure and instill the idea in the public, that legal or not, don't carry. If that's the case, it appears to have backfired, except for making a point to the public.

Since we are in short supply of PPD officers here at HM, I'll offer my opinion of what would happen in Leonard's scenario. The cop would assume that those with nothing to hide, carrying in plain sight are the least of his concerns and most likely his best allies if the shit hits the fan. Then he would get his #6 combo and go eat. He'll probably get a chance to play with his handcuffs and practice his comand voice another time. Best part is, if a potential robber came in with the idea of cleaning out the lunchtime receipts, and was cognizant enough to asses the situation, he'd leave without lunch or robbery assets.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 18, 2011, 11:03 PM:
 
There is a phobia concerning firearms, in those states. You can't act rational when dealing with unreasonable fear. These guys are in the trenches and anything hinting of a weapon provokes a knee jerk reaction. Group Psychosis.

gh/lb

Hang in there 49, we lov ya!
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 19, 2011, 05:41 AM:
 
"You stated that you are trained to use a "Controlling Voice". Basically it is the "shock and awe" approach many miltary forces are trained to use which is proven to work on untrained or poorly trained individuals."

Then there are those who tune up to that and kick your ass because frankly, you started it.

Basicly you start out disrespecting everyone with your "I'm in control here" voice and then wonder why the cook in the back spits on your #6 combo meal?

I'm starting to see a pattern here but I'm just an okie...
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 19, 2011, 06:50 AM:
 
Damn, I missed some good stuff. 49, your comments affirm that there is very much an 'Us and Them' scenario. I think LB is right, there is a phobia towards fire arms among alot of LE, and heck, why let a small technicality like the 'law' get in the way. LB is also correct, why the fuck(explative added to convey professionalism) would someone want to visit jersey, philly, or the whole NE for that matter.

quote:

---

I'm starting to see a pattern here but I'm just an okie...

---

Remember Tom, things can seem a little more surreal here. I think it is because the earth spins faster at the center of the universe.

Maintain
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 19, 2011, 07:16 AM:
 
jiminaz, I have several friends in law enforcement, they remind me of the way Lance describes his brother....good at their job but certainly not fearful. But I would guess that your assumption of how the PD there handled it is fairly correct and that puts a good share of the blame on the politics within leadership.

LB, that's the thing that scares me most,the fear, I think I would have offered to help the guy with the flat and casually but cautiously ASKED NICELY about his gun.......same with the guy in question here, he offered his permit, I would have taken a look at it.

Also...How did the story turn out with the guy fixing the flat?

I"m going to start another kitchen remodel next week, I think I'll practice this command voice thing with my guy so when we go into the customers home we can control the situation, it'll be a blast....SHUT THE FUCK UP!!!! GET ON THE FLOOR BITCH!!!! WE'RE GONNA REMODEL THIS KITCHEN SO KEEP YOUR FUCKIN MOUTH SHUT!!!!

Oh man!!! I can hardly wait to see how this works!!
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 19, 2011, 07:41 AM:
 
The man with the Gun on his hip in Pa. clearly had an agenda with his recording device , He should have followed the commands of the officer it would have been cleared up quickly. The officer had no idea of what he is walking into.
it could have been a routine stop.I think he was much like the preacher on youtube at the border patrol checkpoint looking to press a point.
As for the remainning officers that showed up later , what a bunch of a holes seems the pack mentality kicked in and rather than control and de escallate the situation they made it much more volitile than it need be. They need some trainning.maybe at home depot I hear their hiring. And the' gunman' will be driving a porsche or some such shit with the proceeds of his lawsuit.All I got from this is that the gunman is some sort of dipshit and many of those cops are bullies.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 19, 2011, 09:13 AM:
 
As I think about it, the guy may have had an agenda? He walks into an auto parts store and hears the cop issuing orders, so he clicks on his recorder and turns around. Then, he doesn't get on his knees, as fucking ordered, he says he is just fine, standing there.

Okay, in a sense, he's an agent provocateur, jerking the sergeants' chain. Does that mean he's wrong? I don't think so, but when the city decides to settle, the cops will be wrong.

Yeah, I'm beginning to see why 49 thinks the perp was the trouble causer. Not that I agree with him, but I can understand why he thinks so.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 19, 2011, 10:16 AM:
 
So many questions, so little time. Folks, I will try to address your concerns one at a time. If I leave someone out, just give me a reminder.

quote:

---

Why would a felon be stupid enough to change a tire with an openly displayed and holstered handgun? He already is the center of attention because of the flat, so he doubles down, just incase the next patrolman is daydreaming about donuts.

---

quote:

---

Okay, okay! You see a man changing a tire and he has a handgun and you think to yourself: "NJ doesn't issue many permits so he must be a felon." I just can't comprehend the logic behind that thought process.

---

quote:

---

Then there are those who tune up to that and kick your ass because frankly, you started it

---

quote:

---

Damn, I missed some good stuff. 49, your comments affirm that there is very much an 'Us and Them' scenario. I think LB is right, there is a phobia towards fire arms among alot of LE, and heck, why let a small technicality like the 'law' get in the way. LB is also correct, why the fuck(explative added to convey professionalism) would someone want to visit jersey, philly, or the whole NE for that matter

---

Crossj, I don't usually hear anything positive from you , but this post wasn't too bad. You get my point that firearms in the northeast are perceived differently than they are in your part of the country. Now, I don't see those cops as purposely disallowing a legal act, at least when the dust settled and the law was verified. I am sure the word is out to PPD now though.
"Us vs. Them?" Well, you are entitled to your opinion. I am not going to sugar coat or try to deceive you guys. What you see is what you get with me. If you choose to dislike me for my attitudes then that's your business. But I ain't pulling any punches.

quote:

---

Also...How did the story turn out with the guy fixing the flat?

---

quote:

---

The man with the Gun on his hip in Pa. clearly had an agenda with his recording device , He should have followed the commands of the officer it would have been cleared up quickly. The officer had no idea of what he is walking into.
it could have been a routine stop.I think he was much like the preacher on youtube at the border patrol checkpoint looking to press a point.
As for the remainning officers that showed up later , what a bunch of a holes seems the pack mentality kicked in and rather than control and de escallate the situation they made it much more volitile than it need be. They need some trainning.maybe at home depot I hear their hiring. And the' gunman' will be driving a porsche or some such shit with the proceeds of his lawsuit.All I got from this is that the gunman is some sort of dipshit and many of those cops are bullies.

---

quote:

---

Yeah, I'm beginning to see why 49 thinks the perp was the trouble causer. Not that I agree with him, but I can understand why he thinks so

---

quote:

---

Crossj, I don't usually hear anything positive from you

---

Everyone is a 'perp' to you aren't they....lol. If you will read what I said in the beginning, I agreed that the first cop was reasonable, and I thoroughly agree that the guy had an agenda. I did a search when I found the youtube clip, and it revealed several boards that had what appeared to be this guy discussing the incident. I agree with Lb though, the fact that this guy did it intentionally, doesn't make what he did wrong. I live in a small community that is 'lucky' enough to have a Hipo barracks. I know many of them personally. I just see and hear too much for me to not have the opinion I do. The OHP commander is a friend, and he admits there is an 'us and them' mentality.

Anyway, carry on. I am on my way to Tx for my daughters graduation. 3.97 gpa; 15th out of 398 kids. Hope i don't get 'stopped' on the way down.

Maintain
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 19, 2011, 11:57 AM:
 
The "us vs. them" attitude is fostered & insulated by the "curtain of blue".

NO wonder at all why self proclaimed 'honest cops' either turn a blind eye to this kinda shit, or at best, (in 49's case) attempt to explain away this type of completely unprofessional & unacceptable behavior.

A novel idea would be if cops were to start policing their OWN ranks and hold themselves to a higher level of conduct across the board.

Be just as firm & unyielding to your fellow boys in blue as you would be to an average civilian.

like THAT will ever happen!!!

edit:typing as you were, crossj

[ May 19, 2011, 11:59 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 19, 2011, 12:08 PM:
 
Well gentlemen we are at an impasse. I am not going to change you and you are not going to change me.

I realize there is a strong anti authority/police sentiment here at Huntmasters. No issue here and I enjoy the challenge!

Stay safe.

49
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 19, 2011, 12:59 PM:
 
It's not JUST here at HM it's everywhere! We are just lucky enough to be able to voice our opinions on the subject without being banned....... or thrown to the ground and cuffed.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 19, 2011, 01:18 PM:
 
"I realize there is a strong anti authority/police sentiment here at Huntmasters"

You'll never get it.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 19, 2011, 02:13 PM:
 
Nope. You guys will never get it.

Yeah...so the cops, right or wrong, were pissed off.

The kid was immature and had an axe to grind.

Immature kid with gun + pissed off cops = bad scene.

No shit.
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 19, 2011, 02:16 PM:
 
"I realize there is a strong anti authority/police sentiment here at Huntmasters"

There is a stong anti authority sentiment among free people everywhere. nobody wants to feel subject to another.
Especially easy to understand when no crime or criminals are involved. its a difficult thing to balance.
We need to understand not all cops are pricks and all cops need to understand people need to be treated with dignity and respect until such time as they act unworthy of same.
the police clearly have a certain amout of power over jon q public. They can stop us detain us , hold us for questioning, keep us for 72 hours cuz they may think were crazy, I generally go along to get along and am quickly on my way. but if Im havin a bad day the same day the cops havin a bad day shit could go poorly. kinda scary for the average guy just mindin his own biz on his way home. None of us want to feel subject to another, the us vs. them will continue forever.

[ May 19, 2011, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 19, 2011, 02:29 PM:
 
So what's the answer? Get rid of all the police?

You are gonna have clashes in society between anti authority type personalities, and people in authority.

Pissed off cops + immature kid = BAD SCENE.

I AM a cop, but I know better than to piss off other cops when I am in their jurisdictions.

A little common sense goes a long way in society. Especially when guns are involved.
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 19, 2011, 02:51 PM:
 
i think you stated the answer a little common sense goes a long way!
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 19, 2011, 03:28 PM:
 
A follow-up to my last question if you are up for it 49...Why should he follow the commands of the first officer, when the officer has no right to stop him? I have been well versed on what a cop is allowed to request and what they are not, at least in Washington State. We had a similar incident in my area a short while ago, and it was handled to perfection by the responding officer. I know you are defending the human element and that leo's are no different than anyone else in that they can make mistakes. The kid had an agenda so what? He exposed a flaw in the police system that hopefully gets addressed. Agenda or not, his civil rights were infringed upon.

As to the East/West coast philosophies, regarding civil liberties...it is extremely different. We had a cousin that has lived in DC for the last 40 years visit us on several occasions. He is amazed at our views on gun ownership and personal liberties that we want to maintain. They have systematically replaced personal responsibility with governmental responsibility in his area. It is this reliance on the government that has led us to have a country on the brink of bankruptcy.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 19, 2011, 04:12 PM:
 
The difference is that the career criminal is going to fall down the stairs as soon as he is inside the precinct, and knows it's coming. And knows he shouldn't bother to file a complaint because they will just say he was resisting arrest.

Normally law abiding citizens don't like the attitude they see for some minor infraction in their infrequent brushes with law enforcement.

This is why a cop will lie on the witness stand, if he thinks he can get away with it and if he feels, in his own mind that it is justified. Because. The perp has probably been released several times because they can't locate a witness or he flushed the evidence, etc etc.

So, Officer Smith thinks it's okay to claim that he witnessed a violation when nobody can prove differently; IF they are reasonably sure the guy is guilty. The court will believe the officer 99 out of 100 times, maybe more? It's his word against the poor schmuck in the orange jump suit, judge and jury always side with the cop.

Don't tell me this doesn't happen. I have seen it with my own two eyes. A citizen doesn't stand a chance in a court of law if all he has is his word against a police officers word. Well, they think, a guy will say anything to get out of jail so they don't believe a damned word he says/case closed guilty as charged.

And, the cop is keeping score because he has seen many crooks get away with murder, figuratively speaking. They feel it's okay to fib, if it finally hangs a rap on a crook who richly deserves it, for past actions. That's a cop's version of tit for tat and Baby, they have the upper hand, especially like when you have a sassy asshole bitching about his rights. Those are the dinks that, all too frequently, fall down the stairs.

Here we go again, ganging up on 49. (poor guy!) You have to give him credit though. I think he feels that there is something in the water we drink, here on Huntmasters, average people are not so antiauthority as our members.

I think he is mistaken, in that regard. There are many ordinary people that do not feel inferior when dealing with Police, yet police are following every word said and the reason is they are wanting the citizen to trip up somewhere. It's like waiting patiently, this guy is going to incriminate himself very soon, maybe for something entirely different than where things started.

Hey, we really should quit picking on him! They say he's protected by those chickenshit HM moderators?

gh/lb
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 19, 2011, 04:51 PM:
 
Inferior? We're not the ones wearing a polyester leisure suit with a badge on it...

Nope it ain't never been about feeling inferior or all cops is evil. It's been about a cop (49) that has from the begining thrown out a bad scenerio like cops having to kill a kid and asking us what we thought about it. I told him what I've thought all along and he's tried to justify various things (things he's brought up by the way) with his police brotherhood.

Some I agree on and some I think he's dead wrong on. That's life. No ones picking on him and if we were, I think he likes it.

Back to the subject at hand, no matter the reason or agenda, the guy broke no law and the cop drew his weapon. Things have gone wrong when a crime was not committed and this is justified.

Look at it like this, a 16 YO kid is driving and an officer pulls him over at gun point to check his license. More people die everyday from a vehicle than a gun in a year. Make sense to justify it still?

The guy was leagl and the cop was wrong to draw his weapon. Now the guy was wrong for not cooperating afterwards but that's not the point. And I still don't believe for one second that open carry wasn't the most talked about issue in the PD.

You can fool the fans but not the players.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 19, 2011, 04:59 PM:
 
Leonard I am not going to lie to you, there is some accuracy in your post. It isn't a perfect world by any means. edit: Though, with all due respect, I do believe the members here at Huntmasters are an anti-authority type bunch. Independent thinkers for sure. Heck, if I wasn't a cop, I might fit right in here. Actually, I do tend to question authority myself sometimes. I do it all the time on the football board I serve on. I have a meeting tonight actually. And sometimes, in a the militaristic society of the agency I work for, I have to realize there is a point I can question to and then I have to stop.

Tlb, you also bring up a good point. If the stop was not legal to begin with, is the rest of the stop legal?

My answer is yes and no. Are you familiar with the Good Faith Doctrine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good-faith_exception

Basically, if the officers felt they had a legal right to stop the suspect, the subsequent actions can be considered to be legal.

It all boils down to the legal opinions of the presiding judges, or the attitudes of the jury members, as the case may be.

[ May 19, 2011, 05:05 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 19, 2011, 05:06 PM:
 
In recent years we approved a ccw law but some cities had their own "city ban" ours was one of them and let me tell you, this whole state was in an uproar on both sides of the fence while this was in the works and after it passed, and on the city level it was even worse.

Myself and about 50 other hunters attended the city council meeting at which this subject was planned to be settled on the city level, the city attorney stood up and said that this was a state law and if the city didn't want to run the risk of getting their asses sued off for anything that happened under the city ban they had better comply fully with the state law....end of the issue.........MY point......every body in the entire state was worked up about this issue for over a year before and after this event so the idea that these officers didn't know about it is insulting to say the least.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 19, 2011, 05:09 PM:
 

quote:

---

You can fool the fans but not the players

---

I am not trying to fool anyone tom. Not even you.

I give you real life scenerios, or reasons as to why these cops may have been unaware of the law. I still believe, in my heart and mind, that Philly PD has bigger fish to fry than open carry. Admittedly, that's just speculation on my part.

Okay...gotta get ready for my board meeting. You guys got me charged up, so there will be fireworks tonight.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 19, 2011, 05:10 PM:
 
Make sure to use your "command voice"
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 19, 2011, 05:11 PM:
 
JD, you can feel insulted if you like.

You don't know what goes on in Philly. I am just tellling you how information is disseminated.

It is what it is. But I think it is insulting to suggest that those cops went through all of that when they knew open carry was legal. That would be REALLY stupid on their part. Dontcha think?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 19, 2011, 05:15 PM:
 
So, we are aiding and abetting, he likes the abuse? That's a very interesting concept, Tom. wow, (small wow)

So, we are playing right into his hands? Why did you wait so long to spring this on us? Everything is starting to make sense.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 19, 2011, 05:24 PM:
 

quote:

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That would be REALLY stupid on their part. Dontcha think?

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quote:

---

This makes more sense of it and cast' a dimmer light on the cops that "didn't know", it's only been on the books since 1995.
http://www.philadelphiaweekly.com/news-and-opinion/Open-Carry-Experiment-Shows-Cops-Dont-Know-Their-Own-Gun-Laws-121989564.html

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quote:

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49, if I really felt like she was 17 would it be okay?

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quote:

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Either way, defending someone you don't know for poor judgment on their part because you and they do the same job is either extremely noble, or extremely misguided. The world is full of stupid people, in every vocation and profession, and the only person that should be defending stupid is the guy that dealt it out

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quote:

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Wow guys, I was trying to shed a little light on the situation. Maybe because I have been dealing with the public professionally for the past 22.5 years, I have a different perspective than some of you? Don't forget, all motor vehicle stops, motor vehicle accidents, motorist aids, and pedestrian contacts are recorded by my agency. A big part of my job as a supervisor is to critique these encounters. Like I said, I might have a little more experience and understanding than most of the membership here. If I can "bridge the gap" at least a little bit, perhaps we can find some commom ground. Not all cops are bad. But all cops can be nasty if you put them/us in the right (or wrong) frame of mind.

---

quote:

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That's an interesting article Tom, I noticed the point made several times that the general public was never concerned about people carrying guns, only the cops seem to be terrified by that.

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quote:

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Of course not, I'm comparing it to if the officers felt like it BS.

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quote:

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All those criminals...you know, the ones in the jails? Who put them there? A bunch of terrified cops?

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quote:

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You wrote this BS

"Basically, if the officers felt they had a legal right to stop the suspect, the subsequent actions can be considered to be legal."

So if the officers felt like it was legal then it was?

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quote:

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49er, you and your explanations won't change our zeal for freedom, sorry man, this country and our freedoms came about because of "tyrants" like us who refused to bend over and take it dry, these guys were wrong, some of your policies overstep into our freedoms and you will always be MFed because of it. Nobody wants to hear excuses or you "bridging" the gap.......we just want to be left the fuck alone and when we read this stuff, which is quite often, it pisses us off. Is it your fault....I dont care.....I just dont want to hear about law abiding citizens being fucked with because a cop is nervous about a gun.

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quote:

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Pissed off cops + immature kid = BAD SCENE.

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quote:

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When did I ever say I had any experience in law enforcement? When did I ever say you were terrified? Get your facts straight.

I will call BS when I hear it and that "law" you posted is BS. If an officer is wrong and gathers evidence illegaly then why yes it's still legal? You may put em in jail but there's people called lawyers who sort this crap out and somewhere I'm sure I've heard of illegal search and seizure throwing a case or two out.

Piss off.

---

quote:

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Those are interesting links to ODMP 49, I would suggest that everyone take a peek at them.

To answer your question, as if I need to, I haven't put anyone in prison but I have disarmed someone before........sooooo now what?

Maybe the word "terrified" is too strong a word but you yourself have used similar words, nervous, uneasy......whatever......I could add other words like smartass and arrogant to describe what I've seen with LE but I wont because I believe it's not the majority.

You posted those links to the Officer Down page as if to justify something, I have no idea if those guys were terrified or smartasses or treated those people in a way that escalated the situation.....make no mistake and dont twist what I'm saying here.....it's sad that they were killed but neither you nor I know the exact details of what happened on the scene so I cant see any of that being pertinent. Maybe some of them were dirty cops.....then what?.....we just dont know what happened.

Anyway 49......I don't have anything against you personally, we just see it differently, we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.......even though everyone knows I'm right.

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quote:

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49, you've only got part of the equation though.

IF the first step were:

(pissed off cop + not pissed off cop with knowledge of the LAWS he upholds) + immature kid = NON ISSUE

OR:

pissed off cop + not pissed off captain that don't take shit from pissed off cops = pissed off cop out on leave without badge.

Also:

Internal Affairs investigation/ pissed off cop = pissed off cop on leave without badge

therefore we can conclude, that:

pissed off cop on leave without badge = NON ISSUE

AND

IMMATURE KID = NON ISSUE

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quote:

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As Buker said, 4949 seems like a good guy too me also, and has handled things pretty well..IMO..He would be welcome in my coyote camp anytime.

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Absolutely!! I hope 49 realizes that. I got no beef with him personally.....he chose to get involved in this one and he's a big boy that has handled it well so far. we disagree but I don't think that makes him a bad guy.

The whole "command voice" thing was worth a couple laughs anyways.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 20, 2011, 02:47 PM:
 
4949 does in fact seem like a nice fellow. Unlike him, I don't see any anti-authority attitude by members here on Leonard's board. What I see is the dislike for Policemen who abuse their power, and/or their violation of civil rights. Back in the 1970's, we had a Policeman here who spent 3 years in a Federal prison for violating a man's rights. I also have a problem with Policemen who believe that a citizen must obey any order of a Police Officer. Here in Iowa, the law states that a citizen must obey any "Lawful" order of a Police Officer. It is my sincere belief that the Police have the right to stop someone that he sees packing a gun, but only for the purpose of asking to see the person's carry permit.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 20, 2011, 02:53 PM:
 

quote:

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Some of these guys were really cool, some were douche's for lack of a better word. It was difficult to figure out why, on that note I later moved into auto finance, they either had spotless credit, or never paid a bill on time in their life. Truly a mixed bag of folks from my limited experiences

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quote:

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4949 the fact that you took this situation to some of your cohorts and they said it was "good police work" is downright frightening. As far as their "right" to ask him even that's legally questionable considering he had not broken any law. Again, it goes back to them being ignorant of the law.

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R Buker,

I thank you for the vote of confidence. I think that what the mainstream here at Huntmasters (and probably elsewhere) doesn't get is that there are different perspectives from the different sides of the coin. The open carry rights people think this is all a bunch of "BS" (Tom's wording), and the guy did nothing wrong, had his rights violated, was mistreated, etc. The LE side (some but not all apparently), says you have a city where open carry had never been seen before, or has been seen on a very limited basis. They are ignorant of the law (we have already had that discussion here) and observe a potential threat, or at least a problem, and take action. The open carry advocate, who to my way of thinking has an agenda, is smart enough to be polite but is not smart enough to know he has to listen to commands, having put himself in an awkward position with the local LEO's.

A bad scene all around. Of course, my cop buddies are going to look at this from the cops' point of view. My Huntmasters buddies (term used loosely ) are gonna look at this from the open carry advocates's point of view. Here we have a clash of opinions.

Personally, I know I am looking at this from the LE point of view. However, I am old enough to know the cops made some mistakes, as I have stated numerous times on this thread. The open carry kid made some mistakes as well, at least in my book.

One more time, I am just trying to bridge the gap here. The cops are human. The open carry kid is human. Mistakes were made. Pretty much the end of story as far as I am concerned.

To my buddy Tom. You have been challenging me since I got here my friend. So don't get upset when I challenge you back. I gotta go to a friend's retirement party now. But since you have offered so much opinion on what the cops should have done, and on my responses to it, please set forth your credentials. Maybe you know more about LE than I think you do. So..how many people have you arrested, disarmed, and incarcerated?
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 20, 2011, 02:55 PM:
 
Rich, good points.

JD...thanks. okay gotta go!
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 20, 2011, 02:58 PM:
 
LOL, I'll get back to you I've got a dinner date.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 20, 2011, 03:08 PM:
 
I agree completely with what the three previous posters have said. Dave Allen and JD and I would be honored to hang out with 49 and hunt with him and Rich Cronk is right. He's a former police officer and understands both sides.

We need them. They feel isolated. What's the solution? I don't know but a discussion like this might be a positive thing. It could be a negative thing, on the other hand.

In a few responses, 49 has suggested that we should be grateful for what they do. I don't know if that was EXACTLY what he said; words to that effect, or I took it that way.

I am only as equally grateful as I am for the man that puts all the junk in my mailbox, and the guy that sweeps my pool, and all the others that perform a service. Beyond that, I am not particularly grateful to them for what they do, I'm more indifferent than grateful, sometimes more, sometimes less.

Maybe we should talk him into attending our next campout and jump his ass in his sleeping bag. Oh wait! He no doubt would be sleeping with his gun, maybe that wouldn't be such a good idea?

gh/lb

edit: three more posts since I started writing so my reference is to count up three additional and that is who I was talking about, if it is not obvious?

edit: 49, I don't understand why you ask how many arrests have been made by an automotive electrician? Obviously less than yourself, but how is that Germain to the discussion? Could Tom put you on the defensive by asking how many squad cars you had wired? Would that weaken your argument? Just because you are involved in the same line of work does not make your comments more worthy. IMHO

[ May 20, 2011, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 20, 2011, 03:16 PM:
 
The proper thing to do when you see someone has a gun in there sleeping bag is to scream profanities at them in the middle of the night.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 20, 2011, 03:21 PM:
 
HA HA, you misspelled "their" sleeping bag. No need to roll on this one, Dan, (the man). It's under control.

edit: wouldn't it be more fun than screaming profanities, to dump the ice melt from your cooler?

Was that hilarious or not, the night Vic buried a stinking coyote in the sand under where Higgins was sleeping? He even woke up and moved three other coyotes that were 25 yards away thinking they were the problem. Still cracks me up when I think about it.

[ May 20, 2011, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 20, 2011, 04:10 PM:
 

quote:

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It comes as no surprise that these seasoned men feel that the Philly cops had every right to approach the guy with the open holstered weapon. I explained that the guy had a permit for the city and all. One of the guys said that the cops would have a right to ask the guy for a permit, because how would they know otherwise?

They also agreed that the cops had every right to order the subject on the ground due to him not listening to their commands. They felt this aspect was good police work.

---

I suspect that train of thought would also apply to all people operating their vehicles on the roads. They should be stopped just to see if they have a valid operators license? Not just for visible offenses, then, once is has been established that they haven't broken any laws, they would be free to go.

I thought I read statistically more people are killed from autos than guns. So wouldn't that be more applicable?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 20, 2011, 04:26 PM:
 
Yes, of course. Order them out of their vehicle at gun point, they might be grandmothers and they might not be, "on the ground motherfucker, and let's see some I.D." 40 minutes is a small price to pay for assuring the police that each and every motorist has a license.

Okay, now we's getting silly. That kid with the short dick and something to prove sure has caused a lot of discord amongst the unwashed and unworthy, and those behind the shiny badges tasked with maintaining order and making sure those tail lights are working properly.

Whatever they make, it's obviously not enough.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 20, 2011, 04:41 PM:
 
As silly as the example was, I was just making a point.

I guess I forgot to add a smiley face or use that command voice I was taught.

Do people get tuned up or beat down for contempt of moderator?

I was just thinking how ignorant many LEO's are about firearms. I'm not calling them stupid, BTW. but since they reference them selves to the military, and referring to us as civilians, rank structure, and the chief has more stars on his shoulder than Gen Patten.

It is not unbelievable to hear how many of them have never held a gun much less shot one until going to the academy or boot camp. Considering them growing up in their restrictive state or area. So it might be natural for some to honestly believe that no one other than LEO's should possess firearms much less carry them.

[ May 20, 2011, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 20, 2011, 04:52 PM:
 
That lazy bastard doesn't do enough, he deserves whatever you think is appropriate, but he hates to be hung by his thumbs.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on May 20, 2011, 07:03 PM:
 
We keep talking about "opinions" and which side of the coin you are on. It's not about opinions at all. It's about civil rights. And those are not opinions, those are laws.

This guy carried a gun. He had a right to do so. He was protected under the law. The cops broke the law by detaining him when they had NO probable cause to do so. Without probable cause that he had broken a law or was about to break a law, the cops had no right to do what they did. Just because they didn't know the law does not give them the right to say, "oops."

So, we need to stop discussing the "opinions" of one another and discuss the law. Bottom line, the cops broke the law and denied the gun man his constitutional rights. No question about that.

Time to punish the cops, make it right and use the example to teach other cops to treat people lawfully.

Edit to add: They also do not have the right under law to ask for his ID or his gun license. He does not have to show it. Those cops messed up so many different ways.

The problem I see is that cops get so used to doing things their way that they don't know how to follow the law anymore.

[ May 20, 2011, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 20, 2011, 07:06 PM:
 

quote:

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edit: 49, I don't understand why you ask how many arrests have been made by an automotive electrician? Obviously less than yourself, but how is that Germain to the discussion? Could Tom put you on the defensive by asking how many squad cars you had wired? Would that weaken your argument? Just because you are involved in the same line of work does not make your comments more worthy. IMHO

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quote:

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I suspect that train of thought would also apply to all people operating their vehicles on the roads. They should be stopped just to see if they have a valid operators license?

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quote:

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They can always ask. He had the right to refuse and there was no way they could legally make him produce his carry permit of his ID.

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I disagree. The police have a valid reason to request, or compel the subject to produce his carry permit due to public welfare reasons. This is the reason Philly issues carry permits. In this instance it is even more compelling than a public sidewalk vendor permit. The police can ask for, or compel any sidewalk vendor to produce their permit.

Perspectives are not the same thing as opinions, by the way:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Perspectives
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 20, 2011, 07:38 PM:
 
"I disagree. The police have a valid reason to request, or compel the subject to produce his carry permit due to public welfare reasons. This is the reason Philly issues carry permits. In this instance it is even more compelling than a public sidewalk vendor permit. The police can ask for, or compel any sidewalk vendor to produce their permit."
--------------------
That is correct sir. 4949 gets an A on that little test.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 20, 2011, 07:41 PM:
 
Thank you sir.
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on May 20, 2011, 07:55 PM:
 
Not without probable cause.

This is exactly what the 4th ammendment is all about. I don't have the energy to look up case law for you. But, I'll let you look up case law to dispute this if you want.

If I'm walking down the street with or without a gun, a cop has no right to stop me and demand to see my ID unless he or she believes I've broken a law or am about to break a law. This is pretty simple stuff.

People don't realize it but if a police officer has made any kind of stop that you believe is unwarranted, the proper response is "I have nothing to say." That puts the burden on them to prove what their probable cause was. And that leaves them wide open to lawsuits if they don't follow the letter of the law.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 20, 2011, 08:01 PM:
 
"This is exactly what the 4th ammendment is all about. I don't have the energy to look up case law for you. But, I'll let you look up case law to dispute this if you want."
----------------------------------
That's OK Mr. Buker, you get to be wrong this time.
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on May 20, 2011, 08:05 PM:
 
Rich, I've been wrong before. Plenty of times. not this time though.

Give me some proof. Cite a law that supports your position.

I'm citing the 4th ammendment. Prove me wrong. Because I really believe what I'm saying here and if I'm not informed correctly, I want to know. All the research I've done, I've done on my own and I'm not a lawyer. I really want to know the truth.

So, don't just tell me I'm wrong. Prove it. Give me case law. Give me legislated laws. Give me something or I'll stand strong on the 4th amendment.
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 20, 2011, 08:18 PM:
 
Well now you guys are arguing "opinions"...Case law is the "opinion" of a judge. It is their "opinion" on how a law is meant to be interpeted. Different judges can issue different "opinions", and those "opinions" can be overturned by a different judge with a different "opinion."

The fact remains that the original officer showed disrespect to the suspect, they did not know the law, they did not ask him for his identification prior to ordering him to the ground, and they violated his rights. That is all fact.

I enjoy 49 and his participation here, and I enjoy his willingness to throw his perspective into this discussion. That perspective, and the perspective of his peers, shows that they feel a power trip and a violation of the suspects rights is warranted, anytime they feel their personal well being is at risk. That is what is most troubling to me.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 20, 2011, 08:18 PM:
 
Don't worry Randy, just refuse to show your drivers license next time you are stopped. You could also refuse to show your hunting license next time the Game Warden asks. I guarantee that you will be going to jail as you watch your car being towed. Walk down the street with a gun on your hip, refuse to show your permit to that Policeman when he asks. Don't forget to sue his ass when you get out of jail now.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 20, 2011, 08:21 PM:
 
tlbradford ,
No argument here. Buker is just wrong, and it is not unlawful to be wrong on this board.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 20, 2011, 09:11 PM:
 
Dodging the questions? Not at all my friend, I've answered every pertanant question you've ever asked me.

"So don't get upset when I challenge you back"

Not upset in the slightest but with all the pissed off comments in Freds post I felt it fitting to tell you to piss off.

LE credentials = zero, I've never alluded otherwise.

Arrests = zero, see above

Disarmed = I took a knife away from a guy one night, does that count?

Incarcerated = In okieland that's the same thing as arrested , see above.

I've edited out the personal info here, as 49 has read it and must be satisfied, I've earned my attitude. Sorry LB

Now my whole point has centered around cops thinking they can do as they please. No one can challenge their authority but once they cross the line and break the law or infer a law that doesn't exist with their command voice, who's there to uphold the law?

My question was how does your case law, that says if an officer thinks he's legal but is not, it's still okay to keep gathered evidence and charge the guy. Yet you also said in this thread that "ignorance is no excuse". That's where I think your case law is BS, it's on the books but that doesn't make it right.

I chose the 17 question for the shock value, the case law is just as absurd.

Back to the idiot and the cop.
1. The cop had no right to draw his weapon when he did.
2. The cop didn't ask for his license, he wanted to know what "Junior" was doing.
3. Junior crossed the line when he didn't cooperate.
4. Cop didn't know about a 16 yo law but when he asked his super, neither did he. That's screwed up.
5. I assumed it was a newly enacted law and the idiot was exersizing his right, he was testing the law which is like pissing on an electric fence to see if it was on.

You keep holding cops above us mere citizens by stating ya'll are held to a higher standard like the officers who drank and drove. They may never get there jobs back but a CDL holder WILL NEVER get his job back in the same instance.

Well you've probably skipped most of this and won't comprehend what Im saying but here it is, now how about answering my question. And because I said so won't cut it.

[ May 21, 2011, 04:35 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 20, 2011, 09:24 PM:
 
I got this little tidbit off the net.

quote:

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The Fourth Amendment has been among the most heavily litigated of all the Bill of Rights, but the Supreme Court has considered the probable cause requirement in a relatively small number of cases. The Court measures probable cause by the test of reasonableness, a necessarily subjective standard that falls between mere suspicion and certain knowledge. Facts and circumstances leading to an arrest or seizure must be sufficient to persuade a reasonable person that an illegal act has been or is being committed. Always the test involves the consideration of a particular suspicion and a specific set of facts. Hunches or generalized suspicions are not reasonable grounds for concluding that probable cause exists. Judges, not law officers, must determine if probable cause exists, and thus if a warrant should be issued.

Read more: http://www.answers.com/topic/probable-cause#ixzz1MxNcbrGK

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quote:

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I enjoy 49 and his participation here, and I enjoy his willingness to throw his perspective into this discussion. That perspective, and the perspective of his peers, shows that they feel a power trip and a violation of the suspects rights is warranted, anytime they feel their personal well being is at risk. That is what is most troubling to me.

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quote:

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Disarmed = I took a knife away from a guy one night, does that count?

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quote:

---

My question was how does your case law, that says if an officer thinks he's legal but is not, it's still okay to keep gathered evidence and charge the guy. Yet you also said in this thread that "ignorance is no excuse". That's where I think your case law is BS, it's on the books but that doesn't make it right

---

quote:

---

Back to the idiot and the cop.
1. The cop had no right to draw his weapon when he did.
2. The cop didn't ask for his license, he wanted to know what "Junior" was doing.
3. Junior crossed the line when he didn't cooperate.
4. Cop didn't know about a 16 yo law but when he asked his super, neither did he. That's screwed up.
5. I assumed it was a newly enacted law and the idiot was exersizing his right, he was testing the law which is like pissing on an electric fence to see if it was on.

---

quote:

---

Anyone ever watch top-cops or highway patrol, they have some pretty good footage of what can happen or go wrong when dealing with people that appear to be friendly and non-threatening..
Buy watching both of these shows a viewer will notice there is a big difference in what langue is used from one area of the country to the next..

---

Tim's post sums things up well from a law enforcement perspective.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 21, 2011, 03:55 AM:
 
Ken,

Thank you.

I look forward to hearing your comments.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 21, 2011, 04:57 AM:
 
"It is not my position to reason why. I just have to know that the good faith doctrine defines the legal parameters in which I can operate as a cop. You don't like it Tom I understand. But it is law."

Talk about a cop out... J/K sort of. Yep it's the laws that are set to work with to play the game. Just like the open carry law, oh wait that didn't work out too well.

"This is pretty much the case in a nutshell. I agree and I don't know why you and I have been arguing."

Cause we enjoy it?

"All that having been said Tom, you do get a little pissy when you are challenged."

I prefer "passionate about my beliefs"

But ya, I'm an ass for the most part.
 

---

Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 21, 2011, 05:39 AM:
 
Not being Lt. Columbo or Perry Mason, I still don't understand how a LEO can stop you and ask for your license for walking down a street with a visable sidearm, or hunting, etc. If you haven't broken a law, under the 4th, what allows him/her to do this, if they can't do it for operating a vehicle as 4949 showed in "Proctor vs State" or whatever the case was.

I was indirectly stating/asking this in my earlier post, when Randy stepped up with his clearer views on this.

BTW Ken,
I am kind of glad you stated your experience with San Berdu law enforcement. I almost felt bad about being called a "winer" when I complained about what IMO was a criminal with a shield there.

But I did use some maybe uncalled for colorful language.

Back to the original post. I believe this young man could have done things differently, same for the cops actions. I know I have the right to walk down Crenshaw Blvd in LA with $100 bills sticking out of my pocket and yell "white power", but I wouldn't recommend it.

I don't know where we draw the line on police powers and infringements on our rights for the purpose of safety. Scanners at the airport and tsa touching our junk at the airports and bus stations could be used as an example.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 21, 2011, 06:02 AM:
 

quote:

---

But ya, I'm an ass for the most part.

---

quote:

---

Not being Lt. Columbo or Perry Mason, I still don't understand how a LEO can stop you and ask for your license for walking down a street with a visable sidearm, or hunting, etc. If you haven't broken a law, under the 4th, what allows him/her to do this, if they can't do it for operating a vehicle as 4949 showed in "Proctor vs State" or whatever the case was.

---

quote:

---

Though I think you are getting into something that is beyond the realm of this discussion. If you wish, you can challenge Philadelphia's authority to issue permits for handgun carry, if you feel the city is infringing upon second amendment rights. That would be a matter for the US Supreme Court to ultimately decide.

---

OK, Yes, I think I will put that at the top of my To-do list for tomorrow if the world survives today.

Let's see, gotta look up that Matlock fellow's business number?

I still tell you all, When I 'm King, I am going to correct all this crap.

Oh BTW here is a new twist to the orinal story.

Cops are planning on inconveniencing a few if they choose to open carry. They're going to show us who's boss.

Philly open carry

[ May 21, 2011, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on May 21, 2011, 08:21 AM:
 
Intermission

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=we9_CdNPuJg
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 21, 2011, 08:23 AM:
 
That is screwed up Tom, but I wouldn't be offended by an officer asking to see it as long as it wasn't done with a command voice.

I am really interested to see how this Philly case turns out.

Dan, so you're saying I should stop walking down Crenshaw and yelling "white power"......crap, a guy can't have any fun nowadays.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 21, 2011, 08:29 AM:
 
Jason, I would love to tape it.

I keep remembering a scene from the "Kentucky Fried movie" where the thrill seeker, kind of a pre-super Dave type puts on his crash helmet and Evil Knievil type suit, and, well watch the video below

Rex Kramer Danger seeker

[ May 21, 2011, 08:34 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 21, 2011, 08:35 AM:
 
Yes 49 I am very aware of Terry vs Ohio and how it relates to probable cause, reasonable suspicion when stopping a possible perp and searching him. In this case the firearm was in plain view, so that changes the scenario.

I am also aware of I believe the case is Gardener vs Tenn and the use of deadly force. A US Supreme Court case.

I am also aware on how many cops get killed in the line of duty EVERY year in this country. MANY of those deaths are preventable. Being stupid is some of that. Sorry to say, but true.

There is also plenty of case law now on the books that tells cops they cannot go stop a citizen and screw with them because the citizen flipped the cop off, or became a smart ass.

NOT a crime to be an asshole. BUT it will compound a problem on BOTH sides of the fence that is for sure.

I listened to the first 8 minutes of the audio tape that involve this young man, then shut it down after that. I hope I didn't miss some compelling information that would help the cops.

Once I heard the cop start saying you had your hands in your pockets when the kid didn't and continued to hear the "F bomb" AFTER the kid was in custody, was enough for me to say these cops are the assholes.

Good police work was not what I heard on that tape, that sent the situation down hill from the start.

I did not think the young man was a smart ass or trying to start trouble. He challenged the cop on the law and was RIGHT from the get go. The kid said he had a permit to carry, the cops FIRST clue the guy MIGHT be legit.

ONE must obey LAWFUL orders of the Police, not the order because I say so. Wise of course to do so sometimes. OBEY now, bitch later is sometimes a better course of action.

I'd be embarrased as hell to have started that encounter NOT KNOWING the law that had been on the books for several years and then conducted myself in the manner that several of those cops did. BAD no matter how you slice it.

ONE cannot blame the Police Department totally because cops are EXPECTED to keep informed on changes in the law.

I got paid $35.00 bucks an hour to know my job. Saying one did not know the law in attempting to downplay being stupid DOES NOT set well with members of the jury in civil cases.

Good, SMART cops ALWAYS keep that in mind. VERY humbling to be made to look the fool in a court of law. THE word spreads quickly on how STUPID you were.

Once you loose credibility with the courts, YOU might as well hang up your badge.

Especially if they only hear YOU saying, "shut the fuck up".

Since firearms are such a big part of our heritage and crime is out of control, YOU BET one carrying the badge should keep informed about their state's gun laws. PERIOD!!!

People like this young man and a few who have posted their comments about LEO's are becoming the norm in today's society. I hate to admit it, but most of it is warranted.

Cops should expect to be challenged on certain things and be prepared to explain it when asked. To argue and debate it till the cows come home is not a good idea while standing on the turnpike.

The challenge for cops today is to understand that and deal with that, accomplish the task at hand and leave the situation hopefully better for all. Many do that everyday.

If you use your belt recorder or video camera it will prove YOU tried your best before becoming an asshole with the citizen.

Telling someone to "shut the fuck up", and YOUR the one who doesn't have his DUCKS in a row is beyond my comprehension.

As a cop if you don't know the law, THEN don't go there with the citizen. BOW out of a situation before SHIT goes down hill. Of course as long as the situation is not life threatening.

But case law ALSO says these days that the Police may not create their own LIFE THREATENING situations without consequence. At least in this state.

You can save your ass and mitigate damages by "manning up" admit your mistake. NOT by lying when you discover YOUR the dummy. That definately happened in this case.

For those who posted here saying the kid was looking for trouble by tape recording the situation are WRONG!!! It is the norm for some and has been going on for at least the last 20 years.

All of us will remember Rodney King back in 1991.
I think after that incident that changed how LEO's conduct themselves FOREVER set the stage for citizens video taping cops on the job.

I worked 12 hour shifts with no days off during the Rodney King riots. WHAT an experience on human behavior.

The night the riots broke out, EVERY market was selling out of merchandise, and my local gun shop had a line out the door and around the corner.

In less than 8 hours that gun dealer had NO FIREARMS and NO AMMUNITION in stock. YA THINK the citizens were just a little fearful?

Yes citizens may fear equally as do the cops, that is why many member of the African American community went out and bought video camera's.

More specific commentary on this incident later.
 

---

Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 21, 2011, 09:01 AM:
 
It seems the cops are still trying to blame this guy......when your wrong your wrong.

Ken, thanks for your input, good posts.

quote:

---

The February incident wasn't the first time Philadelphia police officers have confronted Fiorino about his unconcealed gun. Since July, he has been stopped twice and he has had an audio recorder on him each time in case a cop is having a bad day or doesn't understand the law, he said.

His handgun was confiscated once for five months, but neither occasion escalated like the third encounter.

Fiorino said he studied Pennsylvania law for a year before he started openly carrying a gun. He said he carries the gun openly because some of his friends have been held up at gunpoint and he's not willing to allow himself to be helpless.

Police spokesman Evers said Fiorino appears to be inviting trouble from the law by "surreptitiously" recording his encounters with police.

"If you put everything together, it was more than him walking down the street to go to an auto parts store -- without a jacket in the middle of winter," Evers said.

But Fiorino denies that he was looking for trouble.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/05/21/altercation-philadelphia-police-say-wont-look-way-open-carry-gun-owners/#ixzz1N0D3c8fP

---

 

---

Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 21, 2011, 09:06 AM:
 
Dan.....that video is freakin hilarious, of course I'm ever so slightly demented but still....
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 21, 2011, 09:09 AM:
 
Yep but we let em do it, one freedom/right at a time.

I have no problem following the law which is telling an officer I have a CCL and am carrying when stopped but I've never had any problems carrying a gun, anywhere.

The idiot/s for open carry are just seeking attention. A visable gun does not deter violence, that gun can be dealt with. A criminal wondering where the gun is, does.

Dans link has some interesting things in it. One that jumped out at me is making the licensed gun toter lay down till they feel safe while checking their license. I'm sorry, I don't want to get my Carharts dirty.

I also understand that the human mind can only process one action at a time. Let's say the cop has gun drawn on suspect, the suspect, whos actually a cop killer, says I've got a license and throws his library card on the hood. As soon as the officer diverts his attention away from the suspect the following action will almost always be quicker than the officers reaction.

So we have an impass here, we all want to be treated with respect and stay lead free but we want our officers safe as well. Pushing from either side will be a disaster.

The other thing is this quote from the police
"Philadelphia, in certain areas, is very dangerous," he said. "There's a lot of gun violence." Several officers have been killed in the line of duty in the past three years, local authorities say.

I'd be willing to bet the farm not a single license holder was involved in any police killing. But they quickly dismiss the background checks and treat us like the enemy.

It's also legal to carry without a license outside of Philly, if all evil is inside the gates, nuke the place and we're GTG.

But the main item is it's also legal to conceal your weapon. Conceal it and become the gray man, life will be great for both sides.
 

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Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on May 21, 2011, 09:20 AM:
 
yo tunamayo
how have you been Ken
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 21, 2011, 09:52 AM:
 
Some of those heavy handed Eastern Cops need to read a couple of my books about Claude Dallas. Granted they were Game Wardens but they might just piss off the wrong Law abiding Citizen. lol

Good Hunting Chad
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 21, 2011, 09:58 AM:
 
I saw that too Tom....lay down while I check your license......Fuck that!!

Here's the common sense factor which is apparantly removed from cops when they are trained in Philly......when was the last time ANY criminal was exercising his right to open carry.......tell me ONE time. I would never stop an open carrier and ask for a permit....krist!! Think about it....probable cause...horse shit!

All these cops that were shot in the line of duty.....how many were perpetrated by someone carrying open.........? What about robberies? Any crime at all?

Common sense would tell me as an officer that these people aren't the ones to worry about and if you did check what would be wrong with casually asking the person..."you got a permit for that, right"...... "I sure do officer, want to see it"......."no that wont be neccesary, have a nice day"

This stuff isnt that hard to understand is it.

So..... Ken and 49 or Del.......why would a cop suspect someone who is open carrying?
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 21, 2011, 09:59 AM:
 
Chad, Claude Dallas is a hero in your neck of the woods isnt he?

I'll keep my opinions to myself as to keep myself off of anymore watch lists.
 

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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on May 21, 2011, 10:08 AM:
 
Depends on who you ask..lol

But yeah he is...
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on May 21, 2011, 10:18 AM:
 
On a larger scale, I think this Philly incident brings to light how pervasive the 'cop mentality' has become, and the resentment it precipitates from the average Joe 'civie'...

I see it every day, in one form, or another, as I'm sure many of you do as well.
Just a few examples:

Cops put run their sirens just to get through traffic, or blow a red light. NOT because they're 'en-route' to a call, simply because THEY DON'T FEEL LIKE WAITING like us pee-on 'civies'.

Cops just plainly disobeying traffic signals altogther, as if they don't apply?

Cops parking wherever the fukk they want, just cause it's a friggin' police car?

Cops getting 'free-bees' at any & all of the local restaurants, 'cause they're cops.

(DO AS I SAY, NOT AS I DO)

Cops expecting respect & instant compliance from us lowly 'civies', NO MATTER WHAT. The respect shown by the officer depends on what kind of day their having, or whatever.
Any form of non-compliance is deemed a challenge to their authority & they'll make you pay for it, one way or the other...

This is the crux of the problem, IMHO.

RESPECT.

If you don't offer it, you don't get it. Least not from me, ya don't. And I see it's same/same for pretty much everyone here.
And I don't feel that, in & of itself is being 'anti-cop' at all, IMHO.

That said, & given the fact of having close LEO ties in my personal life, I still go out of my way to show respect to police officers.

But the fact remains that (IMHO) the everyday 'little' things' that many, many cops feel entitled to and the liberties they take behind the badge has irreversibly affected how us 'civies' think of cops, as a whole.

Sad, but true.

That kid in Philly knew exactly what he was doing. His actions, by design, cast a spotlight on the rift between police officers & civilians that has been eroding for a looooong time.

For any cop to put the blame on that kid is to completely miss WHY he did what he did.

THAT's the really, really SAD part...

P.S., Nick 49, I think you've handled yourself well & appreciate your candor.

Also, I feel that 'good cops' (like you) are just as much victims of the 'US vs. them' rift.
But to explain away bad behavior of your peers does nothing but tarnish the 'good cop' image you've been defending all along.
Time to kick the garbage to the curb...

And on a side note to police corruption:

To ALL LEO in the house:

Speaking in terms of corruption within the ranks, do you just turn a blind eye???

Ever hear this quote?

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing" (ver batum)

[ May 21, 2011, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 21, 2011, 10:29 AM:
 
That Ver Batum has a ton of great quotes.

I do appreciate Ken and Rich Cronk for posting their LEO perspective on the issue at hand.

49 I do want to caution you on the type of case law you seem to be trying to apply to this situation. It seems like you are trying to say that he was suspectd of criminal activity, thus justifying a stop. Of course, in a different post you stated that they have a right to ask him to show his permit. While I agree with the latter, the former would never hold up in any court. My apologies in advance if you were just bringing a different case law into the conversation even if it didn't have a bearing on this particular conversation.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 21, 2011, 10:55 AM:
 
Well, dog my cats! For some reason, Ken Holtz did not register with me, but dogboy did, we have had a few phone conversations, I believe?

I can't fault any of your analysis. BTW, it sure is bs about the SB Sheriff's department and lately, you may have noticed, Upland city government. Embarrassing.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 21, 2011, 01:08 PM:
 
Tlb,

quote:

---

49 I do want to caution you on the type of case law you seem to be trying to apply to this situation. It seems like you are trying to say that he was suspectd of criminal activity, thus justifying a stop. Of course, in a different post you stated that they have a right to ask him to show his permit. While I agree with the latter, the former would never hold up in any court. My apologies in advance if you were just bringing a different case law into the conversation even if it didn't have a bearing on this particular conversation.

---

quote:

---

But the main item is it's also legal to conceal your weapon. Conceal it and become the gray man, life will be great for both sides.

---

quote:

---

The idiot/s for open carry are just seeking attention. A visable gun does not deter violence, that gun can be dealt with. A criminal wondering where the gun is, does

---

quote:

---

So..... Ken and 49 or Del.......why would a cop suspect someone who is open carrying?

---

quote:

---

That kid in Philly knew exactly what he was doing. His actions, by design, cast a spotlight on the rift between police officers & civilians that has been eroding for a looooong time.

---

quote:

---

But to explain away bad behavior of your peers does nothing but tarnish the 'good cop' image you've been defending all along.

---

quote:

---

To ALL LEO in the house:

Speaking in terms of corruption within the ranks, do you just turn a blind eye???

---

quote:

---

RESPECT.

If you don't offer it, you don't get it.

---

quote:

---

Right now I just don't know who the hell they are.

---

quote:

---

I was with Marc an hour ago when turned himself in to Detective Boyd. We went to the Northeast Detective Division at 2831 Levick Street. It is also the headquarters for the 2nd & 15th districts.

As far as the charges go at least two misdemeanors. Disorderly Conduct and Reckless Endangerment. One is an M2 and one is an M3 according to the detective. I asked him if he was the one who filed the charges or was it the officers from the incident.

He said someone from the DA's office reviewed the incident and filed the charges. He also mentioned something about a judge either approving or signing off on it. Marc will be held at the aforementioned location and have a video arraignment sometime today. Detective Boyd was pretty sure bail would be small, possibly ROR. I gave Marc $300 in case he needs bail money, if not he is putting it towards his fundraiser. He promised to call me when he is released. I will update when I have more information.

---

http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-14...ml#post1571585

[ May 21, 2011, 04:56 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 21, 2011, 05:05 PM:
 
This is from JD's post above from the brass at Philly PD.

Police spokesman Evers said Fiorino appears to be inviting trouble from the law by "surreptitiously" recording his encounters with police.

"If you put everything together, it was more than him walking down the street to go to an auto parts store -- without a jacket in the middle of winter," Evers said.

YOU see this crap often from those in power when their trying to cover their tracks and have NOTHING on someone.

The reality answer to this official comment would be "SO".

When the kid is seen walking down the street in the middle of winter packing his gun without a coat on, just freakin waive at him as you drive by.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 21, 2011, 05:07 PM:
 
Here is the court docket for the Philadephia charge:

http://ujsportal.pacourts.us/DocketSheets/CPReport.aspx?docketNumber=MC-51-CR-0017077-2011
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 21, 2011, 05:12 PM:
 
Public drunk.

Seen more drunk cops in public than I have people like this kid. LOL!!!!
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 21, 2011, 06:20 PM:
 
Been an interesting trip with this thread. Good to see things smoothing out. I had a long post typed out to say how I handled things with a heavy handed cop and his enabling police chief, but it got too long. Short version: I got the chief fired. End of story. (BTW, don't ever piss off a guy who buys his ink by the barrel, as the saying goes. The officers on the department who apparently thought my son was an easy target "un-targeted" him after coming to the collective realization that their combined attitudes and actions had cost their boss his job. He's selling used cars now. See? They can learn.)
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 21, 2011, 06:24 PM:
 
One other final comment here about a point my brother made after KS got concealed carry. We've always had open carry, to some extent. When concealed carry was passed, as he pointed out, every place in the state posted the "no guns" signs on their doors. Now, in an effort to get concealed carry, attention has been drawn to guns along with the unintended consequences of now being forbidden to carry a gun, concealed, open or otherwise just about anywhere. We're pretty gun friendly in these parts, but people still got kinda hinky when all that came down.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 21, 2011, 07:03 PM:
 

quote:

---

It looks like our hero plead guilty to public drunkenness charge.

---

Thank God he wasn't busted for being a litterbug too. Seems they're going after him worse than the democrats went after Sara Palin

Looks to me like it's past time for him to lawyer up with a big gun like Geoffrey Fieger and let him battle his attackers. Philly has lots of money and I'm sure they won't mind paying it out to show "junior" standing up for his rights, and putting him in his place.

[ May 21, 2011, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 21, 2011, 07:13 PM:
 
Well Dan, I have been saying since the beginning of this thread that our hero has exhibited poor judgement.

I think him having been arrested for public drunkenness during a seperate incident is relative.

So is him not showing up for court, hence the warrant.

It's all relative.

[ May 21, 2011, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 21, 2011, 07:16 PM:
 
Yeah, I'm promoting you moderator, Law Enforcement Forum. Congratulations. El Bee
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 21, 2011, 07:18 PM:
 
I didn't know about him not showing up for court. That isn't very smart either.

I sure hope it's not one of those "change the court dates" like I hear happened to that guy at Ruby ridge.

I'm just not too trusting anymore.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 21, 2011, 07:27 PM:
 
No problem.

BTW, the charging document for the public drunkenness charge is not from Philadelphia. It's out of the venue of LANSDALE BORO, POLICE DEPT.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 21, 2011, 07:30 PM:
 
Thanks Leonard.

Do I get two stars now? One for breaking 1000, and one for my new job?
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 21, 2011, 08:12 PM:
 
49, I thought there was hope for you but maybe I was wrong.

You've dug up a 2 yo case for public drunkeness of a what, 23yo? Other than doing the same thing as the city official did in trying to discredit him, How is it relative to the discussion at hand?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 21, 2011, 08:21 PM:
 
No, your promotion is for attaining the rarified height of 1,000 posts. That's all you get, moderator of an imaginary forum, and it's strictly an honorary title, with considerable prestige. It's what you make of it. And, before you ask, no, you don't get to play with any buttons.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on May 21, 2011, 09:02 PM:
 
Ruby Ridge was a case of the FBI gone wild!How dare you pull this shit on us were the FBI.That dude got 3 or was it 6 mill for that! Not enough!
And that BS that went down in Waco! The Waco massacre was uncalled for! Just another case of were the FBI/ATF gone wild!How dare you assholes pull this shit on us!
Sure David Koresh should of had his nuts cut off and killed! And sure most of the adults were assholes!
But just not sure why the twenty three children had to be killed!
The cops are out of control,they have the badge! They have the guns! And they have the numbers!
And then the legal system chews on your ass for awhile, before they spit you out!
While I'm not down with all laws. For the record I do like law and order.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 21, 2011, 09:19 PM:
 

quote:

---

49, I thought there was hope for you but maybe I was wrong.

You've dug up a 2 yo case for public drunkeness of a what, 23yo? Other than doing the same thing as the city official did in trying to discredit him, How is it relative to the discussion at hand?

---

quote:

---

How dare you assholes pull this shit on us!

---

quote:

---

So why is it not okay for me to have an opinion regarding a KNOWN trouble maker with law enforcement?

---

quote:

---

The February incident wasn't the first time Philadelphia police officers have confronted Fiorino about his unconcealed gun. Since July, he has been stopped twice and he has had an audio recorder on him each time in case a cop is having a bad day or doesn't understand the law, he said.

---

quote:

---

49 you can be a convicted turd in this country, that does not give cops permission to set aside procedure and decorum with handling citizens

---

quote:

---

Let's be fair here 49.

YOU WANT to bet your pension that if the kids lawyers LOOKED inside the personnel file of any of those cops HE might find some prior issues of misconduct on the part of the cops?

Maybe a little more serious than a drunk in public?

49 you aware of the case of Brady vs. Maryland?

---

quote:

---

I will say it one more time . There is not a lack of OC training in PA. All municipal police officers had mandatory MPOETC training in 2009.This training delt with OC inside and outside of Philly.Either some Philly officers are willingly disregarding it or commanded to from above.

---

quote:

---

For our other readers.

This is LAW in the State of California. I cannot speak for the other states.

A person's prior arrest and convictions MAY NOT be part of the case that is before the court.

ONLY convictions may be used at the time of sentencing, or for purposes of impeeching the testimony or character of the defendant.

Which means, if the defendant gets up on the stand and trys to tell the Jury he is a good person, the District Attorney MAY then use the defendants CONVICTIONS to impeech or attack the credibility or character of the defendant.

If the defendant does not testify, THEN nothing he has done comes out in open court. ONLY if convicted will the Judge use the prior conviction as part of sentencing process.

The defendants PRIOR arrests with NO CONVICTIONS CANNOT ever be used or testified to by the police.

I as a cop, cannot get up on the stand OR include in my police report that the DEFENDANT is a turd and has a prior conviction or multiple arrest for ANYTHING.

We simply attached the defendants prior convictions to the police report. Copies of that is given to Defense council and the Judge. Probation will also get a copy if the defendant is convicted.

WE can ONLY paint the defendant as a TURD if the defendant gets on the stand and says he is not a turd.

ONLY the evidence in the matter before the court will be heard or discussed.

---

Nice try Ken. But I never said the defendant's prior history would have a bearing in court.

Now show me where in this thread I have said cops can set aside procedure and decorum with handling citizens.

SHOW ME KEN. I will be waiting. SHOW ME.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 09:10 AM:
 
I am waiting Ken.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 09:12 AM:
 
Ken,

Show me where in this thread I have said cops can set aside procedure and decorum with handling citizens.

Still waiting.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 09:15 AM:
 
Still waiting.
 

---

Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 09:19 AM:
 
So what I am saying 49, if the cops want to paint someone as a turd, THEY too may be painted as bad cops.

Of course that will only happen if the defense attorney makes the proper motions before the court.

That's why I came into this thread to paint a broad and bigger picture and LOOK at all the variables.

The reality of the good,bad and ugly aspect of police work.

And I must admit that MANY cops don't pay attention to such issues and find out the hard way.

This kid my be painted as a turd MANY times, a cop get's painted as a liar or badge heavy ONCE, it is pretty much open season on him or her from that time forward.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 09:21 AM:
 
49 my comment about setting aside procedure was not suggesting YOU said that. It was for the benefit of our other readers. A general comment.

NOW answer my question about BRADY vs Maryland PLEASE!!!!!!!!!!!

[ May 22, 2011, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 09:28 AM:
 
Then if the defendants prior history has NO bearing in Court, why would you try and make it an issue here?

Why would you continue to even discuss the issue after admitting the cops screwed up for the get go?

Your trying to do damage control as it appears to me. NOT doing a very good job at this point.

My comments on the more indepth issues are my prospective on the REALITY of what COULD happen and sometimes DOES happen.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 09:41 AM:
 
49 these are your words from earlier. PAY attention to item #1.

Ken,

What I see that the Philly cops did wrong is:

1. They mistreated the subject from minute #1.

2. They were ignorant of the law (their fault or Philly Pd's fault for not making them aware).

What else are you indicating they did wrong?

Edit: Wow 1000 posts. Do I get a prize Leonard?

[ May 21, 2011, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]

Item #1 CASED CLOSED, not a good idea to continue with the minusha of the kid is a turd.

I believe Item #2 seals the deal.

JD's posting on the history of the encounters between Philly and the kid is just nails in the coffin.

It's your way and that is what you have been doing on pretty much most of your other postings on LE issues is defending stuff.

Some of it I surely understand, this case I think I'd of just not said anything.

[ May 22, 2011, 09:43 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 22, 2011, 09:41 AM:
 
dogboy, thanks for reminding me, (and everybody else) that Rodney King once lived in my town! This was AFTER the big incident which is where (I suppose) he got the money.

49, I don't think everybody is jumping your ass while attributing things you didn't say? The fact that you have a certain perspective is noted.

Now, really, if you were the judge, do you see enough evidence to convict a known turd, or would you call it a draw? That's what I'm wondering? Did not the officers involved get a little of that shit splatter?

In the Broad Cosmic Scheme of things, does this turd deserve a conviction? If not, then let us move on to the actions of the police. From that point forward, no history.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 09:43 AM:
 
Don't try and dodge it Ken.

YOU tried to discredit ME with that statement.

Now show me where I said it.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 09:46 AM:
 
Leonard, with the limited facts we can glean from the audio, my answer is no, the turd apparently does not deserve a conviction for what he was charged with.

He is guilty, in my opinion from the audio, of obstruction of justice, which is a NJ charge. I don't know what Pennsylvania's equivalent is, and why he was not charged with it.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 09:48 AM:
 
I am still waiting for Ken to show me where I made that statement.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 09:50 AM:
 
No 49 I did not try to descredit you, if I did I'd type the specific words in the post.

Maybe some of the other readers can tell me if they thought I was trying to descredit you?

My apologizes if you still feel I did, remember this is the internet. WE ain't sitting around the campfire with a beer in hand.

LB yes old Rodney actually lived behind the Police Station on 13th street.

That was the first house he bought after his settlement.

Your welcome on the reminder. YOU and the city deserve celebrity statues whenever we can give it to you.LOL!!!!

[ May 22, 2011, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 10:00 AM:
 
This is what I said 49. If the other readers think this was an attempt to descredit you I WILL be happy to change or delete the entire sentence. I will again apologize too!!

"49 you can be a convicted turd in this country, that does not give cops permission to set aside procedure and decorum with handling citizens."
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 10:13 AM:
 
Right. And by doing so you are saying, or implying that I condone it.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth, which I don't appreciate.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 10:20 AM:
 
OKAY 49 if you say so. Thank you for the clarification on the issue.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 10:23 AM:
 
So Ken, we can agree it is something that YOU said, and not me? Correct?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 22, 2011, 10:57 AM:
 
Yes, certainly, Rodney was/is an okay sort, fairly legit, as they go. The new popo headquarters is on 14th and he lived real close, next block over on 13 about the same distance from mountain, so he could throw a rock through the window, any time he wanted to. And, I'm on 16th, which does make us (did make us) almost neighbors. Kinda cool, eh?

But we have a number of celebrities in residence, so the fact that he moved, we can compensate.

Obstruction of justice? I hear that phrase often enough, so there must be something in the Penn Penal Code that covers it? But, does it pass the sniff test? You really would cuff him and stuff him for an offense like that? Weak, IMHO. But, I'm not a lawyer.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 22, 2011, 10:58 AM:
 
OK, JD acts like a turd, talks like a turd, I say we waterboard him.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 22, 2011, 11:01 AM:
 
Rich, he's an Okie. He don't mean nothing by it. I hear them good old boys waterboard all their friends on weekends. We luv ya JD.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 22, 2011, 11:31 AM:
 
Well hell 49 if he wont say it I will.......this whole damn thread has been you justifying the cops actions because this guy is a turd......no specific words ....but that IS the overall and overwhelming feeling that I and many others get from all of this.

To answer your questions...

quote:

---

Why was it okay for you and others to call Tim Anderson names?

---

quote:

---

Why was it okay for people to develop negative opinions of cmiddleton?

---

quote:

---

So why is it not okay for me to have an opinion regarding a KNOWN trouble maker with law enforcement?

---

quote:

---

Do you have a double standard?

---

Damn right there is a different standard for those with a badge and as is evidenced by your 10 pages of drivel that standard doesn't mean SHIT anymore.

Sorry but this guy didn't do anything wrong, all your claims of not cooperating are pure bullshittery designed to protect the guilty cops......you talk about how we dont know if these cops have a record......Bullshit again.....listen to the audio these mother f ers have a record of lying and covering there asses from the beginning of the audio all the way to the end.....no proof of a record my ass!!!! See 49, I can turn this shit around on you all freakin week long if you want to, I'm not intimidated by your law lingo and bullshit case laws, we can run this bitch out to 50 pages if you want and you will still be WRONG!!!

Just let it go bro, we have all seen how the "brotherhood" works and most don't care for it, LE in general is losing ground with public opinion and you guys cant understand why.......you see everyone as a criminal and if your proven wrong you argue and twist facts and sling mud to try and save face......it's too late Nick.....talk is cheap and won't change peoples minds....especially when they read a thread like this one.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go waterboard myself.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2011, 11:52 AM:
 
The guy is a troublemaker because he was stopped 3 times for doing something that was legal???

PD and missing a court date are all you have. He's an advocate of what's legal in this case.

You don't like it anymore than the cop who stuck a gun in "Juniors" face. He set aside procedure and decorum with the handling of this law abiding citizen and you've justified it by stating the officers safety justified him pulling his gun.

If the guy has been picked up 3 times someone somewhere in that dept knows the law is on the books. They just don't like it and are jacking with anyone who lives by this law.

Yes I said and believe carrying concealed is a better idea but that does not mean he's breaking the law and deserves to be face down on the ground while some cop proves he's in charge.

BTW, I'm proud to be an OKIE!
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 12:28 PM:
 
YES 49 I said what I said in that statement, that is obvious.

A note to myself. Do NOT piss off JD, Tom64 or LB. I'll add names to that note as they become evident.

LB if when your stopped by the cops and their stop is unlawful, because you didn't violate any law and become uncooperative, THERE is no obstruction charges that can be filed.

Orders must be based on the cops lawful conduct as 49 would say at MINUTE 1.

FACT, if the cops had a case, then we would not be having this discussion about open carry, because we would be able to read the charges against the kid for ourselves.

Kinda of like the 2 or 3 year old drunk in public issue.

WE don't read any charges in 3 different attempts by the cops to screw with this kid cause he carries a gun on his hip and a tape recorder in his pocket.

LB as to Rodney he moved to Fontana I believe after running into some financial issues and a scrape or two with Upland PD.

Had a scrape or two with Fontana. Then he came to my jail for weekends, screwed that up and got locked down for a few months.

A certified turd for sure.

[ May 22, 2011, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 22, 2011, 12:30 PM:
 
"Rich, he's an Okie. He don't mean nothing by it. I hear them good old boys waterboard all their friends on weekends. We luv ya JD."
----------------------------------
An Okie huh? OK, he is forgiven.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 22, 2011, 12:42 PM:
 

quote:

---

A note to myself. Do NOT piss of JD, Tom64 or LB. I'll add names to that note as they become evident.

---

LOL.....Ken, Tom and I are just playin along but LB......you definitely don't want to piss him off or he'll give you one of those custom titles like mine.

btw ....when did I become an Okie? or more importantly....HOW?

Also.....how do I know if the waterboarding was successful, I'm soaking wet and pissed off.....it must've worked.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2011, 12:57 PM:
 
I went waterboarding yesterday while practicing open carry.

Note to self: Lay off the choclate chip cookies!
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 22, 2011, 01:32 PM:
 
He probably didn't want to be drunk in public...He wanted to be drunk in a bar.

Ron White - Drunk in Public
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 22, 2011, 02:04 PM:
 
Nice bass Tom, hey how do you like that open faced reel ? I haven't fished in years and gonna' get back into it. Anyway all my gear could use some upgrading.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2011, 02:18 PM:
 
This was my first fishing trip in 2 years I think, so I don't know what the latest and greatest is now but I love my Shimano Calcutta's. I had a hard time paying $150 for the first one but quickly had 4 more once I had some time on the first one.

I sold my boats and kinda got out of the mood to fish but have been thinking about getting another tube and start slowly again. Bass Tournaments about took all the fun out of it for me. And I was small time.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 22, 2011, 02:28 PM:
 
spinnerbait?
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2011, 02:50 PM:
 
Blue and chartruse buzzbait.

He'd go 3.5 to maybe 4 pounds, pretty thick, he filleted well.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 22, 2011, 03:00 PM:
 
Now I have to get my boat up and ready.

I've been wanting to go to Beaver Lake AR for a while and get some stripers. But Tablerock would be fun too for some largemouth.

Dern boat hasn't left my yard in a few years.
 

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Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on May 22, 2011, 03:37 PM:
 
"Obstruction of Justice." WTF? I'm outraged that it was even suggested that because he refused the cop's demands/commands when had had broken no laws that there'd even be a question that he had obstructed justice. So if a cop comes up to you and orders you to your knees you have to do it even if you've done nothing wrong? Otherwise it's obstruction of justice? No way in hell.

I guess if I ever run into an unstable cop like that I'll drop to my knees to avoid being shot. The bottom line is that I trust no one. Cops are no different than other folks. Some of them are just not stable and not to be trusted.

All of the talk here so far about opinions and such are interesting but what about the laws? Apparently no one here really knows if this guys rights were violated?

I know for certain that there is a video feature on my phone. If I'm ever confronted by cops about my activities, you can bet it'll be on recording as much as I can. Does that make me a TURD?

As some of you know, I'm an amateur photographer and was once confronted by police about taking pictures of people in a candid manner. The law is clear that I can take pictures of anyone in a place where there is no expectation of privacy and as long as I'm not profiting by their image in a commercial way. Two cops once confronted me about it and said I needed to stop. I told them about what the law said. They said if they found out I was posting pictures on the internet, they'd "Come after me." I again informed them about the law. One of them called in to a supervisor while the other one continued to insinuate that I was breaking the law.

Things were getting heated between me and the cop and I was ready to stop talking to him and leave when the other cop came up to me and said I was free to go. The cop questioning me looked at the other guy like he was nuts. The look the informed cop gave the other one was priceless.

But this situation pissed me off to no end. That's when I decided to learn exactly what my rights were and what i need to do or not do when confronted by cops.

I visited with a lawyer after this experience to be sure I was right in what I had researched. My lawyer told me I handled it correctly and is the one who advised me to record any time I was approached by a cop.

From here on out, if approached by cops I'll be sure to turn on my camera so I can at least record audio if not video.

I know that no one human can possibly be aware of all the laws on the books but my point is that before you come off acting the heavy, be aware of the laws.

So, all the opinions are interesting, especially from cops/former cops, but... what are the laws in the case we are discussing? Does anyone really know?
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 22, 2011, 04:19 PM:
 
Randy;
You're just lucky that you weren't 'Handcuffed for your own protection, sir'. LAPD used to do that pretty regularly in the San Fernando Valley. They may still do it.......it's been a while since I was there.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 04:21 PM:
 
I'm back.

quote:

---

Obstruction of justice? I hear that phrase often enough, so there must be something in the Penn Penal Code that covers it? But, does it pass the sniff test? You really would cuff him and stuff him for an offense like that? Weak, IMHO. But, I'm not a lawyer.

---

quote:

---

It's fine to have an opinion but you are not God and your opinion could ruin someones life all because you want to defend your buddies in blue.

---

quote:

---

Sorry but this guy didn't do anything wrong, all your claims of not cooperating are pure bullshittery designed to protect the guilty cops......you talk about how we dont know if these cops have a record......Bullshit again.....listen to the audio these mother f ers have a record of lying and covering there asses from the beginning of the audio all the way to the end.....no proof of a record my ass!!!! See 49, I can turn this shit around on you all freakin week long if you want to, I'm not intimidated by your law lingo and bullshit case laws, we can run this bitch out to 50 pages if you want and you will still be WRONG!!!

---

JD, face facts my friend. You offer opinions and no facts.
The guy did do something wrong. He used poor judgement, put himself AND the cops in a precarious situation, and then REFUSED TO LISTEN TO COMMANDS. Hell, I was at another retirement party this afternoon and was talking about this case. Even one of the cops' WIVES said this guy used poor judgement.

Yeah JD, we don't know if these cops have a record. Until their personnel files are made public, we won't know. So by you trying to say they do without facts is pure BULLSHIT (your word not mine ). The cops aren't covering anything unless they lie on reports or perjure themslves in court. By the way, the cops aren't GUILTY (your word again) of anything until they are found guilty in a court of law. More BULLSHIT on your part.

Just like I told Ken, come and talk to me when you get some FACTS.

And you wanna pull this thread out to 50 pages? Well I ain't backing down so bring it on my friend.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 04:48 PM:
 

quote:

---

e guy is a troublemaker because he was stopped 3 times for doing something that was legal???

---

quote:

---

LB if when your stopped by the cops and their stop is unlawful, because you didn't violate any law and become uncooperative, THERE is no obstruction charges that can be filed.

---

quote:

---

"Obstruction of Justice." WTF? I'm outraged that it was even suggested that because he refused the cop's demands/commands when had had broken no laws that there'd even be a question that he had obstructed justice. So if a cop comes up to you and orders you to your knees you have to do it even if you've done nothing wrong? Otherwise it's obstruction of justice? No way in hell.

---

quote:

---

All of the talk here so far about opinions and such are interesting but what about the laws? Apparently no one here really knows if this guys rights were violated?

---

quote:

---

I know for certain that there is a video feature on my phone. If I'm ever confronted by cops about my activities, you can bet it'll be on recording as much as I can. Does that make me a TURD?

---

quote:

---

So, all the opinions are interesting, especially from cops/former cops, but... what are the laws in the case we are discussing? Does anyone really know?

---

quote:

---

How is my opinion on this thread ruining someone's life?

You know, youguys really crack me up. You bad mouth other hunters all the time, some on this board, some not. You call them some of the worse things I have ever heard in my life, and it's all okay. But when I call some guy a "turd," it's a BIG DEAL and my evil "inner cop" is coming out. There are double standards here for certain.

---

quote:

---

The guy did do something wrong. He used poor judgement, put himself AND the cops in a precarious situation

---

quote:

---

and then REFUSED TO LISTEN TO COMMANDS.

---

quote:

---

Hell, I was at another retirement party this afternoon and was talking about this case. Even one of the cops' WIVES said this guy used poor judgement.

---

quote:

---

Yeah JD, we don't know if these cops have a record. Until their personnel files are made public, we won't know. So by you trying to say they do without facts is pure BULLSHIT

---

quote:

---

By the way, the cops aren't GUILTY (your word again) of anything until they are found guilty in a court of law. More BULLSHIT on your part.

---

quote:

---

Just like I told Ken, come and talk to me when you get some FACTS.

---

quote:

---

Your opinion represents the law in this case, no one has ever told you that you cant cuss me for the way I hunt coyotes or anything else. If all cops judge people and make arrests using your logic then we are all screwed, bunch of turds that we are.

---

quote:

---

He did NOT put the cops in ANY position....THEY can take responsibility for that....of course they wont, it's easier to drudge up make believe crimes from 2 years ago to dirty his reputation.....it's called damage control but you already know that.....thus the current 10 page debacle.

---

quote:

---

I think your preconcieved notions have clouded your ability to listen to the audio in an objective way......this just didn't happen

---

quote:

---

Of course she did!! Unless she was a total bitch she would back up her husband.........of course we all know that the wife of a cop is the be all end all of interpreting law and determining who should be pistol whipped on the curb.

---

quote:

---

Again....listen to the audio, we can hear everything we need to know about these lying sonsabitches. And that aint no Bullshit!!

---

quote:

---

No, not my word, they will be hung by there own words and lies on the audio

---

quote:

---

Plenty of facts for you to see but you wont because this "turd" embarrassed the fuck out of LE.

The only crime committed was that this guy got up your asses......good for him.....no crime.....just exposed idiots on the force.....too bad.

---

Yep the cops may have embarassed themselves. I will give you that, but that's got nothing to do with me. The guy very well may have committed the crime of obstruction, but we will never see a verdict on it because he wasn't charged
with that particular crime.

Is that all you got JD? I said to bring it on.

[ May 22, 2011, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2011, 06:41 PM:
 
"Because Tom he is doing it to prove some kind of point. He has an agenda."

Duh... The point is it's legal to open carry, he's an advocate, that's what advocates do.

"This kid is a troublemaker through and through"

So was the black gal on the bus...

We have rights and you yourself exclaimed you have laws to work by, whether you liked them or not it was the law. The Philly law says it's legal to open carry. Like it or not!
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 07:00 PM:
 
Very good Tom. I knew you were a man of common sense.

That same common sense told everyone here on the forum that the guy would be better off just carrying concealed.

I like the way you think.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 07:01 PM:
 
Now where is my friend JD?

Bring it on my friend.
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 22, 2011, 07:13 PM:
 
On a side note:

Tom, I'll certainly consider the "shimano" reel, I'm at a point in life where I like to buy things once and be done if possible.

As Del, would say thanks..Bro'..
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2011, 07:15 PM:
 
I don't think anyone here would disagree with that 49 but facts is facts and open carry is legal in Philly.

You can't fix stupid!

"Very good Tom. I knew you were a man of common sense"

You better edit that part out before LB see's it, remember I'm just an okie and he might ban your ass for that.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2011, 07:18 PM:
 
Dave some don't like the round shape of the Calcutta and I hear good things about the Curado as well.

Yo welcome!
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 07:19 PM:
 

quote:

---

I don't think anyone here would disagree with that 49 but facts is facts and open carry is legal in Philly.

---

Yes sir Tom the cops made some mistakes since minute 1.

The open carry advocate could have used better judgement from minute 1, and made the mistake of not heeding the officers' commands.

I have been saying this from pretty much the beginning of this thread. I don't know what all the hype is about.

Where is JD?
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 22, 2011, 07:21 PM:
 
4949,
JD is being waterboarded right now. Actually, a Warden pulled a boat over down in southern Missouri because some guys were dragging JD behind a boat while he clung wildly to a surf board. Turned out they were only trolling for gators, so the Warden said "OK then", and left.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 22, 2011, 07:23 PM:
 
LOL!
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2011, 07:26 PM:
 
Hey all I just heard Joplin MO was devistated tonight by a large tornado. I don't know where JD lives in MO but let's put this aside and hope he's alright.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 22, 2011, 08:03 PM:
 
I appreciate the concern but I don't live in MO. I was just reading about Joplin though and that sounds bad....from what I read they know that people died , just unsure of the number....I hope that's wrong!! One dead in Minneapolis also.

Anyway 49 I've already proved that you are wrong, the cops are criminals with extensive records and the guy in question is nothing more than an innocent choir boy who was randomly singled out by the cops and hassled because the sight of a free man TERRIFIED those cops, not to mention the sight of a gun.

I think this one is over and your just lucky you have a badge or those cops would be putting you on the ground for being able to think on your own (that's a compliment) so once again I've proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that my knowledge of the law and behavior as a human being is above reproach.

BTW....The whole waterboarding thing is over rated so is trolling for gators.....maybe I'll get my own TV show.

[ May 22, 2011, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 22, 2011, 08:14 PM:
 
You are too stubborn to see it. He put the cops, himself, and the surrounding public in a compromising position. He could have stuck the gun under his shirt tail.

Seriously, WTF. He doesn't have to do this. He can carry it however he wants. Just because it makes the police officers uncomfortable doesn't mean he should have to conceal it. How about all Leo's conceal their weapons always. Wouldn't that make people feel better? No guns exposed at all. Maybe the cops should dress in floral tones and whistle Mayberry while walking down the street, that should make people more comfortable.

Open carry makes a weapon more easily accessible when needed. That is common sense. F*** those cops for not knowing the law, and if they did then f*** them for messing with a law-abiding citizens rights.

Obstruction of justice would have got those cops a wrongful arrest law suit in a heartbeat. Its best that the go quietly on their way, and hope this fades into history, because they messed up. Frankly, I am surprised you went there after all of your responses. Maybe some of us got under your skin, and you slipped.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 22, 2011, 08:17 PM:
 
Airing tomorrow night; JD's fast and furious gator show featureing TT and his famous decoy gator dogs.. You'll see lots of action after TT shoots the gators in the ass and then lets the dogs go to work..
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 22, 2011, 08:21 PM:
 
Who's TT ?
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2011, 08:25 PM:
 
Dang JD, I thought you and Andy was neighbors or something.

So NE doesn't stand for Missouri?
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 22, 2011, 08:44 PM:
 
I saw the news on that Joplin Tornado. Wrecked a hospitals roof and multiple other damage. It was bad enough when the damn tornado tore up our airport. That's at least three so far for us this season, two have been within 20 miles of my home.

I just got home from a job in KS the other day, I thought they were tornado central.

[ May 22, 2011, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 22, 2011, 08:51 PM:
 
Well.....no......NE doesn't stand for MO but LB called me an Okie earlier so who knows.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2011, 09:15 PM:
 
Well Missouri is NE of Okieland... all I'm saying. LOL
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 22, 2011, 09:19 PM:
 
Center of the universe and all...
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 10:18 PM:
 
49, I can't believe at this time based on your own comments about how these cops screwed up from minute 1, did not know the law, they have stopped this kid 3 times in as many months for the samething, and YOU are still trying to mitigate the situation in the cops favor.

You paint the kid as a turd and you do so by attempting to use an old drunk in public arrest and failure to appear that has no bearing on what happened in this case as to what the cops did.

If the kid had 5 prior arrests for drunk in public it is irrelevant to the actions of the police who were ignorant of their own laws. NOW if the kid was intoxicated at the time of the first contact that would be something to discuss.

Randy Buker, for you sir.

The specific law for open carry in the City of Philly. Their gun laws are pretty extensive. I did not read all of them but that State seems pretty cool if your LICENSED.

§ 6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.

No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:

1.such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
2.such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).

So I'm even more pissed than I was before after reading this specific law.

So how about the first words out of the cops mouth should have been, "hey junior, you got a license to carry that firearm"?

We know the kid would have said yes. The cop could have said can I see it please.

I would have surely hoped there would have been no more drama.

In addition 49, I guess the kids prior drunk in public didn't stop the kid from getting his permit to carry. SO his prior arrest is a NON-ISSUE in reality.

It only seems to be an issue for you at this point.

[ May 22, 2011, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 10:25 PM:
 
We should all remember the kid telling the first cop you can open carry in Philly and the cop shouted back NO YOU CAN'T.

The kid came back with I've got a license, I think that is when the "shut the fuck up's" started?

Wasn't the first cop a Sergeant I believe?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 22, 2011, 10:28 PM:
 
Question: Can you carry a firearm with a permitt while being drunk????
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 10:44 PM:
 
No Tim, no mention of being intoxicated while packing.

Just mentioned no license shall be issued to convicted or known drug users or a habitual drunkards. One arrest for drunk in public would not meet the definition of habitual.

It could be in another section of PA state law, but not under the firearms laws.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 10:48 PM:
 
Here is the link for PA gun laws.

http://paopencarry.org/uniform-firearms-act#6108
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 10:54 PM:
 
Interesting Buker asks about the specific law, it took me about 5 minutes to find it for his benefit, but a VETERAN cop and a Sergeant from Philly in all his years doesn't know it.

Pathetic when you see how EASY it is to read.

There is another term in the judicial world often used.

The term "should have known".
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 22, 2011, 11:23 PM:
 
Thanks for the link Ken.. It says in there that since there are so many laws in the books not all of the L.E are up to date on all of them and also states there are a select few that refuse to accept some of them for what ever reason..

Did a little reading on the place you worked at and see that some of the L.E there are not up to speed on some of the laws also..
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 22, 2011, 11:35 PM:
 
Tim as to my place, ABSOLUTELY there are many not up to speed. Some are and will pay for it dearly.

I guess a jury will have to decide if it's ok to refuse to accept written State law or your excused for not being up to speed on something as simple as this particular open carry law.

You might be able to make the argument for the first time they stopped the kid, but NOT the next two that followed.

Many veteran cops around here that DO NOT know much about the job when it comes down to it. They have cruised their entire career.

Of course that can be said about many professions.

Personal pride if you want to be on top of the game and know about what your getting paid to do.

Many a cop has been killed in the line of duty because the crook thought he was acting like Barney Fife and whacked him when he got the opportunity.

STUPID is expensive in 2011.

[ May 22, 2011, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 23, 2011, 02:37 AM:
 

quote:

---

Seriously, WTF. He doesn't have to do this. He can carry it however he wants. Just because it makes the police officers uncomfortable doesn't mean he should have to conceal it. How about all Leo's conceal their weapons always. Wouldn't that make people feel better? No guns exposed at all. Maybe the cops should dress in floral tones and whistle Mayberry while walking down the street, that should make people more comfortable.

---

quote:

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Open carry makes a weapon more easily accessible when needed. That is common sense. F*** those cops for not knowing the law, and if they did then f*** them for messing with a law-abiding citizens rights

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quote:

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Obstruction of justice would have got those cops a wrongful arrest law suit in a heartbeat. Its best that the go quietly on their way, and hope this fades into history, because they messed up. Frankly, I am surprised you went there after all of your responses. Maybe some of us got under your skin, and you slipped.

---

quote:

---

§ 6108. Carrying firearms on public streets or public property in Philadelphia.

No person shall carry a firearm, rifle or shotgun at any time upon the public streets or upon any public property in a city of the first class unless:

1.such person is licensed to carry a firearm; or
2.such person is exempt from licensing under section 6106(b) of this title (relating to firearms not to be carried without a license).

---

quote:

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In addition 49, I guess the kids prior drunk in public didn't stop the kid from getting his permit to carry. SO his prior arrest is a NON-ISSUE in reality.

It only seems to be an issue for you at this point

---

quote:

---

We should all remember the kid telling the first cop you can open carry in Philly and the cop shouted back NO YOU CAN'T.

---

quote:

---

I guess a jury will have to decide if it's ok to refuse to accept written State law or your excused for not being up to speed on something as simple as this particular open carry law.

---

quote:

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Big deal Fred.

The drunk charge is part of his history.

His open carry interactions with police are part of his history.

Now his skipping on court is part of his history.

These are FACTS and not opinions, and not made up stuff like the libtards do.

You can't dispute the facts. Shall I not post any more facts? Will that make everyone here happy?

I can sigh in disgust too my friend.

---

I'm not disputing those facts at all.
I was trying to illustrate that condemning a 21yr kid for a D&D charge is like comdemning the sky for being blue.

So, what if the kid WAS a 'turd'?
Does that mean police can infringe on his rights?

And even if we WAS a 'turd', in no way does that exhonorate the actions of those cops.
NO way, NO how...
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 23, 2011, 05:50 AM:
 
"just because it was legal doesn't make it the smartest thing to do.

The law says I can speed in order to catch law violators. But I don't always do it because it isn't always the smartest thing to do (considering road, traffic, weather conditions)."

So can they pull you over and arrest you for speeding? No they can't because it's legal and left up to your dicrepency. Same as Junior, it was left up to his discrepency to open carry or not, he broke no law and the cops were wrong from the start all the way to the end. The city will pay and I can on;y hope the individual officers can be named in the following law suit.

And you think we are proving your point? Wow!

Tim, in Oklahoma, we can't even have one drink while carrying, nor can we enter a bar while doing so.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 23, 2011, 07:31 AM:
 
No 49, not mitigating ANYTHING the cops did especially since they screwed with the kid 3 times in totality.

I won't mitigate STUPID because you can't. NEVER have.

YOU seem to side step that issue because THAT issue really compounds the problem.

The cops are pissed because the kid played hardball with them so after the first time of being made to look the fool, the cops retaliated 2 more times.

I can say that because I have seen it and lost count on the number of times it's happened.

A clear lack of professional conduct, but it appears such conduct is defended by their department. Those are departments that seem to still be operating in the dark age.

Sounds like police management might be just as stupid as the street cops. I sure hope Interal Affairs didn't just tell the kid to shut the fuck up.

I BET one or more of those cops do have some prior complaints for such conduct in their files. I DO NOT know for sure, but I bet they do.

What does the Department spokesman have to say to the press, they believe the kid is looking for trouble because he is carrying a tape recorder and not wearing a coat when he walks down the street carrying his gun. WOW that's a awesome argument. And I say SO to that.

ONLY a fool would fall into that trap of contacting a citizen who has made it obvious that is exactly what they are going to do. It does not matter whether cops like it or not, NO violations of the law.

Retaliating against ANYONE under the color of authority when a citizen has exercised their rights under the law, pays out big bucks in civil court.

But you seem to be under the impression that because the kid has a drunk in public and failure to appear that might be the cops saving grace. I can assure our readers it WON'T.

With the obvious mentality of the Philly cops I bet the City pays out more than their share of funds to make lawsuits for stupid go away.

I bet some of those open carry advocates will go out and buy tape recorders too. Sounds like Philly set the stage for a show down.

Not everyone is afraid to take the cops to task. Experienced and SMART cops ALWAYS keep that in mind in 2011 and should have learned by paying attention and learning from others mistakes long before 2011.

THERE is no good faith doctrine that will help one after being STUPID 3 times.

My posting of the carry law in Philly was done because Buker asked about it. Your comments that followed were unwarranted.

Even though it's the internet, I won't go there and say it sounds like your being a SMART ASS at this point. The thank you part for posting what we already know.

Regarding your comments on the wife of a cop who thought the kid was looking for a pay out from the city, YEA so? Looks like he might get something at this point.

Pay outs even if planned are the ONLY tool the common folks have in getting BAD COPS attention.

They get lucky from time to time when the FBI civil rights division steps in and indictes cops for their misconduct.

FACT in point would be the Rodney King case. Cops acquitted in the States criminal trial.

Federal Goverment says no, indicted on civil rights violations, 2 cops found guilty and sentenced to prison.

Should have been a wake up call for other cops to pay attention and quit beating everyone's ass after a pursuit.

Little did the public know that such a practice was done routinely and often after pursuits not only in California but every where else.

Little did the public know, but those cops were thrown under the bus so certain police managers could save their jobs in the face of public outrage.

At somepoint in Philly that could happen to these cops, get thrown under the bus so the Chief can keep the politicians happy.

Another UGLY part of police work MANY do not know about.

HERE is a question for you 49. HOW many cops have you arrested in your 22 year career? HOW many summons have you issued to fellow cops?
How many times have YOU reported misconduct to your Captain or Internal Affairs?

YOU said your an honest cop, what is your honest answer.

Why do I ask, based on your commentary in this thread thus far.

[ May 23, 2011, 07:38 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 23, 2011, 07:48 AM:
 
JD and others don't know how to ask the tuff questions because they were not cops.

I do know what to ask and where to look for dirt.

You can ask the Sheriff of my County. That is why I survived working with crooks for 20 years.

KNOWING the game and having the balls to play it all the way!!!! From busting knuckles to launching led. Better than the movie Serprico.

So let's run this thread like JD said for 50 pages and BRIDGE the gap for our citizen readers. Let's take this thread to a new level of REALLY talking about what goes on in cop work.

Of course only with LB's permission, it is his house?

[ May 23, 2011, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 23, 2011, 07:49 AM:
 
Tom......That's a nice Bass.....just noticed it.......Maybe LB will start a sister site called Bassmasters.....oh wait.......never mind.

I never could master a bait caster, I'm kinda fond of those damn high dollar Pflueger spinning reels.....kayak fishing small waters for bass has proven to be very productive for me........I like the magic hour on a warm June evening......sneak up and flip a topwater or a trick worm into the brush......BAMMM!!!! You know how it works!

Lots of fun, my youngest daughter enjoys bass fishing from a kayak too.......give it a try sometime.

Sorry for the hijack......I know we very seldom wander off subject around here.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 23, 2011, 08:21 AM:
 
Damn....12 pages since I left. Through the weekend several things have transpired....

First, my daughter graduated hs..


Second, Joplin did get devistated by a tornado...so far 89 dead, and I got caught in one in Grove.

Third, it is still an 'Us and Them' mentality. The fact that it would be more logical to carry concelled is mute. It was legal to carry open, and our 'hero' chose to do so, and was properly liscensed.
It is obvious that the PPD has a hard on for junior and his crusade. This is the part that bothers me most, and possibly many members here. Alot of LE demonstrate in their behavior their feeling of being 'more equal'.

Maintain
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 23, 2011, 08:28 AM:
 
Here JD...a little help hijacking the thread. Not a kayak, but still on the water. Just a simple old zebco Tom....lol.

 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 23, 2011, 08:41 AM:
 
Good looking bunch you have there G.
They are calling for more stong storms here this afternoon. Keep an eye on the sky.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 23, 2011, 08:54 AM:
 
Good times Geordie!

JD I have a few Pfleuger spinning reels too, like em pretty well. Kayaking down small rivers sounds fun. We used to float the Glover river here in tubes and fly rods, still my favorite of all. Small mouth fight!

Hi-jacking? Might as well, the issue will never be resolved (us vs them) and 49, even though he's a nice guy and all, is proof enough for me.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 23, 2011, 08:58 AM:
 
Bad ones going on here now Kelly. You all get any rain yesterday?

quote:

---

Hi-jacking? Might as well, the issue will never be resolved (us vs them) and 49, even though he's a nice guy and all, is proof enough for me

---

quote:

---

So, what if the kid WAS a 'turd'?
Does that mean police can infringe on his rights?

And even if we WAS a 'turd', in no way does that exhonorate the actions of those cops.
NO way, NO how...

---

quote:

---

So can they pull you over and arrest you for speeding? No they can't because it's legal and left up to your dicrepency. Same as Junior, it was left up to his discrepency to open carry or not, he broke no law and the cops were wrong from the start all the way to the end. The city will pay and I can on;y hope the individual officers can be named in the following law suit.

---

The cops' actions were wrong in some ways I agree. Though they were not wrong in all aspects.

[ May 23, 2011, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 23, 2011, 11:11 AM:
 
Since were sharing weekend photos. Here is what I ended photographing Saturday night.


 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 23, 2011, 11:21 AM:
 

quote:

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But you seem to be under the impression that because the kid has a drunk in public and failure to appear that might be the cops saving grace. I can assure our readers it WON'T.

---

quote:

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THERE is no good faith doctrine that will help one after being STUPID 3 times.

---

quote:

---

My posting of the carry law in Philly was done because Buker asked about it. Your comments that followed were unwarranted

---

quote:

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So I'm even more pissed than I was before after reading this specific law.

---

quote:

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Even though it's the internet, I won't go there and say it sounds like your being a SMART ASS at this point. The thank you part for posting what we already know

---

quote:

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HERE is a question for you 49. HOW many cops have you arrested in your 22 year career? HOW many summons have you issued to fellow cops?
How many times have YOU reported misconduct to your Captain or Internal Affairs?

YOU said your an honest cop, what is your honest answer.

---

quote:

---

KNOWING the game and having the balls to play it all the way!!!! From busting knuckles to launching led. Better than the movie Serprico.

---

quote:

---

Third, it is still an 'Us and Them' mentality. The fact that it would be more logical to carry concelled is mute. It was legal to carry open, and our 'hero' chose to do so, and was properly liscensed.
It is obvious that the PPD has a hard on for junior and his crusade. This is the part that bothers me most, and possibly many members here. Alot of LE demonstrate in their behavior their feeling of being 'more equal'

---

quote:

---

49, now look. We all love ya. But, could you firm up your position? Not so much about "advice for turds" or mother hen for Philadelphia PD.

The facts. Where do you stand on the facts of the case? This kid's prior is not an issue, and you know it.

Do you think the police department has a hard on for the kid? I'm baffled, because the tape seems to indicate that the officers had total ignorance of any prior knowledge. That would clear them of any harassment charges, so far as intentionally going after a guy that insists on rattling their cage with open carry.

Just how far can you support their (LE) actions? 90%, 10%, 50/50? Is the turd culpable, 90%, 10%, 50/50?

Your argument is getting a little murky for me to follow because I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

---

quote:

---

22 years as a cop in NEW JERSEY and you NEVER arrested another cop, NEVER wrote a ticket, and only twice had to go to Internal Affairs or your Captain to report misconduct????

WTF you been hiding behind a freakin desk or driving the Chief around all these years? Or do you really work in public relations?

FREAKIN NEW JERSEY one of the hot beds in our history for the MOB and Police Corruption and ONLY TWICE reporting misconduct.

BULLSHIT 49, YOU HAD your BLINDERS on for 22 years pal. THANK YOU for your honesty.

---

Not chooseing sides but the same canbe said for you Ken..

Look whats been going on in the county you worked in.. You got cops haveing sex with teenagers and one of the higher ups is in the habbit of spanking bare bottoms on women, not sure if its women prisoners or women that work on the force, not good either way..
The problems seem to go on and on and perhaps you could of done a little house cleaning while you where around or did you have blinders on also??...

[ May 23, 2011, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 23, 2011, 01:28 PM:
 
On second thought Leonard, I will answer that question for you.

Yes, I am a true believer.

I believe in loyalty, duty, and integrity.

I have been honest and forthcoming here, not only on this thread, but during my entire stay here. I have been honest even though I knew it was going to bring derision upon myself. I don't try and put words in other peoples' mouths in an attempt to discredit them either. Or didn't you take notice?

There a few people on this site who hear only what they want to hear. I know the type, having grown up around them.

You guys want to dogpile on the 49er? Go right ahead. I will take you all on.

Keep to coming Ken. You and JD can keep it coming. Others might not see through your bullshit but I certainly do.

Keep it coming.

You guys don't want to like me for my "cop" attitude well that's just fucking great. What you see is what you get with me.

I stand by every post I made in this thread.

If anybody doesn't like it well, tough shit.

Leonard, if you don't like it you can just ask me to leave. No problem here.

Yeah, I'm a true believer.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2011, 01:29 PM:
 
I mean that you appear to be a happy member of the brotherhood and identify with them. It looks like you give the benefit of doubt to police officers if there is any question of responsibility.

I didn't say that as a slur or an insult. I just think you are a loyal cop and as such you support police and department policy whenever you can.

I think it means that you are not a rebel, you are a team player, and it's is as expected for someone who has lived the life for 23 years.

Just like the wife that expressed an opinion very much like the rest of the cops at your social gathering. It would be unusual for a wife to identify with aggrieved citizens rather than a husband that lives in the trenches, 24/7.

Cops have an us versus them mentality, we have already established that. Is the term "true believer" not applicable, or you find it offensive? I didn't mean it that way, if so. I think like Tommy Lasorda, who bleeds Dodger blue, you are a cop and proud of it and that's all I mean. It seems very apparent that you are fully supportive of the police, as far as talking about good faith and benefit of the doubt, and it just looks like you are a team player.

I don't think using the expression, "true believer" is an insult, but maybe you think that means you have a closed mind to any misdeeds that come to light? I don't mean that you have blinders, but I think you try, (as you have mentioned several times) to "bridge the gap".

If you object to that portrayal, I will retract it and see if I can't come up with something a little more accurate and less offensive....because I am not attempting to tar and feather you for anything, much less for expressing a pro law enforcement point of view.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2011, 01:35 PM:
 
Hey Ken, was that case out in Barstow a few years ago something about unscrewing the barrel from a revolver involved in killing a female. Was that CHP or SB Sheriff Dept.?

gh/lb

edit: 49, I can count on one hand the number of times I have asked certain members to leave, and there is no mistaking my suggestion. No, I have no intention of asking you to leave. Rather, I encourage you to stay and contribute. That's all I ask of anybody. LB

[ May 23, 2011, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on May 23, 2011, 02:09 PM:
 
(Edit) Fuck it....

[ May 23, 2011, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2011, 02:27 PM:
 
....and yet, we have been promised 50 pages of dialogue? In order to define, (establish) a point of view without question, (ambiguity), it may take that many?

I'm ordering another barrel of ink, just in case.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 23, 2011, 02:28 PM:
 
I'm done.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 23, 2011, 02:34 PM:
 
Leonard that was a CHP officer in the Barstow case, who after killing the woman took the barrel off his revolver, he replaced it with a new one.

It was the Sheriff's Department who investigated the homicide. IT was the Fed's who finally prosecuted him and he was given 99 years for violating the victims civil rights. IE murder.

TA17 you are correct in your comments about San Bernardino.

First I have not worked for them since June 2006. These incidents you speak of just happened. Hard for me to clean up something when I am not working.

Two of the three incidents that have occurred, the cops have been ARRESTED for their crimes. What would you like me to do about that?

You don't see me in anyway attempting to EXPLAIN away such conduct do you? YOU don't read where I am attempting to say the victim is a TURD do you?

YOU might wish to go back and read my first couple postings. I think I set the tone.

49 I simply believe your a SPIN DOCTOR for corrupt cops. The polictically correct way to explain it was what Leonard just said.

I stand by my comments regarding your having never arrested or ticketed another cop. If your now a supervisor even more so.

If you wish to represent the "thin blue line" from the East Coast you may do so.

Just funny that with 22 years of service you haven't arrested a TURD wearing a badge or even ticketed one.

I might believe that if you worked in Mayberry RFD, but not New Jersey.

If you wish to say I don't know what I am talking about, full of shit, OKAY!!!

Like Bill O'Reilly says, "let the viewers decide".

I am done too!!! As someone said we are getting no where.

[ May 23, 2011, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 23, 2011, 02:40 PM:
 
LB is it possible for a group hug now?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 23, 2011, 02:53 PM:
 
Ken just saying if you policed youre own back when you did work there the county may not have the problems they are haveing today.. Just from the little bit of reading I did I'd say its been going on for sometime, you perhaps even new some of the bad cops that surfaced or should I say got caught recently.. Same could be said for 4949.. Just saying youre house is'nt any cleaner than 4949's....
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 23, 2011, 02:57 PM:
 
Hell 49, I have to commend you. You have maintained your position very well without getting hostile. Not bad for a back east copper lol. It was kinda nice to be able to speak your mind to a LEO, and not worry about being pulled on the way home.

13 pages.....and how many changed their first opinion? I would say this issue (us vs. them) will only continue to get worse with todays 'informed' society(ie youtube etc).

Maintain
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 23, 2011, 03:11 PM:
 

quote:

---

49 I simply believe your a SPIN DOCTOR for corrupt cops. The polictically correct way to explain it was what Leonard just said.

---

That is the biggest bunch of SHIT I have ever seen flow down my highway. Putting words in my mouth again, are you?

Spin doctor for corrupt cops my FUCKING ASS.

Show me some corrupt cops I defended? Go ahead. You have absolute PROOf those Philly cops are corrupt? They made mistakes which I have admitted to over and over again. You can't prove a damn thing about those guys, except for the fact that they made some derogatory remarks while under duress.

SPIN DOCTOR for CORRUPT COPS my fucking ass.

Stop putting words in my mouth.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 23, 2011, 03:16 PM:
 
The fact is, I had to give testimony in two internal affairs investigations against other cops, and I have started numerous internal investigations when I was presented with a problem. Sometimes it wasn't easy. Some of the guys I had to do this to were people I considered my friends. But it had to be done, and I admit I didn't like it.

I never had occasion to arrest another police officer. And you know what? I am damn glad I never had to.

Spin doctor for corrupt cops my fucking ass. You have no idea what I am all about.

My fucking ass.

[ May 23, 2011, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2011, 03:21 PM:
 
Yeah, okay.

I just don't want to convey the impression we are out to crucify 49 for loyalty. This is, In my opinion) not personal, we are talking about a situation where nobody has a dog in the fight.

49, you deserve credit for your candid comments and willingness to let us peek under the covers.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 23, 2011, 03:22 PM:
 
TA how do you know I didn't?

SBSD has over 45 Stations within a 36,000 square mile area with over 2,500 cops and that many support employees.

Click in this website. You might enjoy some of the reading.

http://iepolitics.com/tag/post/

Keep in mind the FBI,US Department of Justice and other government entities read this site EVERYDAY.

[ May 23, 2011, 03:25 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2011, 03:26 PM:
 
Is Rancho Cucamonga included in that 2500 personnel? I always thought it was a little strange that the squad cars say "POLICE" on the side but those are SB Sheriff's Deputies driving them.

gh/lb

edit: Ranch is about 3 miles east of me, I see more of them than Upland PD. They, (Upland) only have one unit asigned to the entire beat north of Foothill Blvd.

[ May 23, 2011, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 23, 2011, 03:38 PM:
 
Well after catching up on this thread for a few hours I have came to the conclusion that 49 is brain washed by the brother hood to a certain extent. AKA loyal. But this also creates a us vs you separation.

Im a turd....

I have a few misdimeanors(sp)on my record and I open carried while mushroom hunting.

 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 23, 2011, 03:39 PM:
 
I agree, Geordie, if for no other reason than the willingness of the NRA's legal wing to get behind someone on a gun-related suit, i.e., Heller. As I said earlier, the Obama administration has brought gun rights advocates' sensitivities to the forefront and they're ready for a fight. Most, if not ALL the gun rights cases being fought today are being won by the pro-gunners. And these are the folks that understand as I believe that the best time to gain momentum is when you're headed downhill. Now that we have some speed built up, LEO's are going to have to be extra vigilant for those instances where a stop, detention, or arrest challenges any aspect of any law and creates issues about which lawyers looking to make a name for themselves on the national stage will eagerly go after.

Again, I commend Nick for his persistence. But, at the same time, we have to separate and differentiate between the behavior of LEO's in general and of individuals within the profession. The incident in Philly seems to have been a failure, in large part, on the PPD to properly educate and keep their personnel apprised of the laws as they change. In Kansas, new laws take effect on January and July 1, and at other times when the law is especially critical and needs immediate implementation. New laws are covered to death in the media and there is no good reason that anyone, especially LEO's, can rightfully claim ignorance as their defense.

I know that in my job for the federal gov't, we have a job talk every week about changes in postal regulations and policies often coming down as nothing more than a memorandum from higher ups in Minn./ St. Paul, or D.C.. I'm not a cop and our policy changes don't pose the same threat of doing harm to those we serve as do those in law enforcement, but once the information is provided to us, we are expected to know it and abide by it in the performance of our jobs. "I forgot" or "I didn't hear you say that" will get you a reprimand in most cases.

The incident George told us about was over the top. Hope that guy gets charged with attempted first-degree manslaughter or the equivalent and spends some time at the hilton because he deserves it, but we all recognize that the incident was a failure of the individual not a departmental or law enforcement issue.

And it isn't just the big city.

A few weeks ago, a friend's son, who had just moved into a house with his buddy, was up late playing his music loud at 1 am. The neighbor lady called PD and asked for an officer to stop by and have them turn it down. The officer that responded was the same bonehead that gave my son the ticket for the icy stop sign incident.

He goes to the front screen door (inside door was open) where he can see this kid in plain view watching TV. He knocks on the door and announces himself, "Abilene PD". Immediately, one of the kid's friends runs out the back door. No reason, not wanted for anything. Just ran out the back screen door. The nice policeman immediately draws his .40 Glock, throws the screen door open and sticks the barrel of it in this kid's face and tells him not to move, and asks him what he's doing there. The kid's about to shit his pants and tells the officer that he lives there and asks him "What the f*** are you doing here?" The officer holds him AT GUN POINT until his patrol partner gets there - a much senior officer - who then asks the officer to step outside where he asks him "What the F**K are you doing?!?" He told his senior officer that the second occupant was "fleeing and eluding" and that he thought his noise complaint was a residential burglary in process. The older guy asked him, "From what?", and, "When was the last time you saw someone burglarize a house with all the lights on and the stereo blasting at 1 in the morning?" The officer just got this blank look on his face when he realized that, in Kansas, it isn't at all illegal to suddenly run out your back door at 1 in the morning. Duh!!!

This is a small town - 7k people - and you just don't do this shit. Like I pointed out earlier, the last chief got his butt fired because his officers were, collectively, dangerous to the public.

This dumbass isn't an example of law enforcement in general. He's an example of someone who is terrified while on duty, lacks any semblance of good judgment and people skills, and needs to be disarmed and pointed toward McDonalds where, we hope, he won't endanger others at the fryolator, despite 8 years on the force.

My friend's son asked him not to do anything about it because he doesn't want to be targeted by the PD, the way they do that shit. But, I told him he and his wife need to take their son down and request a meeting with the new Chief, the Officer and the City Manager, and demand disciplinary action for the actions of this officer who could have easily killed that young man. The PD works for the city. The city is comprised of its citizens and their operation is funded by our tax dollars, thus the PD works for me. As a taxpayer and property owner, I have a vested interest in how my city is run and when law enforcement or any other city agency is running amok, I have the right to step up and speak my mind without fear of persecution, or in this case, unfounded prosecution. If they don't like it, they maybe need to go to work in the private sector. Otherwise, I believe in accountability.

Responsibility for the incident in Philly lies with the officers involved, and neither Nick nor the profession in general have any obligation to defend them, nor should they. Doing so only brings the profession, as a whole, down a notch, in my opinion. Admit that those cops are dumbasses, state to clarify how it should have been done, and move on.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 23, 2011, 03:39 PM:
 
Awesome pics Geordie and Tom.

Ill throw in my latest kick...gar

 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 23, 2011, 03:48 PM:
 
Yes LB, Rancho is part of all that. The words Police are on the sides of those cars so the City feels they own us. LOL!!!!

You will see slight deviations in the units from city to city, some different colored markings in certain things.

This is a City of Victorville unit.


 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 23, 2011, 04:14 PM:
 
Patterson, those shrooms are delicious!!

Are you catching those gar on a line or bow fishing?

First gar I ever shot with my bow was about 4 1/2 ft long.....that's a good time.

LB......Is it OK for me to call t-bag names now?
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 23, 2011, 04:21 PM:
 
Patterson, you hit a gold mine there
bring up some and we'll fry some up with bear chops
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on May 23, 2011, 04:22 PM:
 
Victorville, good grief, I remember that place a little, been to the old RR museum many years ago.

Happy trails to you.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 23, 2011, 04:25 PM:
 
JD, they are good!! I mostly just sell the shrooms though. I cleared 120 lbs of them this year.

That gar was rod and reel. On rope lures. You never actually hook them. Its pretty neat. Pretty good fights!!! Found em one day while out trying to find white bass runnin the river. Came home and googled what the hell they were and read up on how to catch them. I had never seen/caught one before. That was about two weeks ago.

I had never been after mushrooms before either. Lots of new things like gar and morels that this Colorado boy had not experienced before. Keeps me busy after work though.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 23, 2011, 04:30 PM:
 
Bearhunter im in!!

For anyone curious about wtf a rope lure is.....and to further derail....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S79DFtd2hYw&sns=em

[ May 23, 2011, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Patterson ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 23, 2011, 04:50 PM:
 
Just make sure you know the difference between a morel and a false morel. One is good. The other? Not so much. LOL
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 23, 2011, 05:00 PM:
 
Patterson, did you get into any whitebass(sandies)? Never did get into them this year. The damn rain had the runs all screwed up.

Maintain
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 23, 2011, 05:12 PM:
 
Lance, no clue if i have or not. Nobodies called saying they got sick.

CrossJ nope!! I ran into the exact same thing. The rivers were to low and the mouths at the reservoirs were to shallow for them to get in. Heard a few reports but it was minimal. Around 5 here and there. I've been catching them good off dams on the reservoirs already. All little though. Just a few keepers. Got into the channel cats a little on saturday. One went 7 pounds. Few walleye here and there but spotty. Now that I sold my side business im out almost every evening and weekend. Was wanting to get into those whites runnin the rivers but rain was to late as you mentioned. Have it now though! Figures.. do they run this late??
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 23, 2011, 05:13 PM:
 
Hey Cross, looks like you're getting wet. Any severe stuff down there? The cell that took out Reading, KS got started somewhere over me. I watched a bunch of scud-like SLC's (scary looking clouds) form over Abilene before moving on east toward Emporia and Topeka. They were about forty miles east of us before they had enough balls to drop rain, then all hell broke loose. They say that tomorrow, we're sitting on the bubble, along with a lot of other people. Keep yourselves safe, guys.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 23, 2011, 05:15 PM:
 
Dustin,

Everything I saw in your pile looked good. Didn't get a chance to go out,... again. Love morels. Battered with flour and egg, fried up to crispy. Damn!

BTW, did you hear? 49 pissed off everybody by shooting some guy for public drunkenness in Philadelphia! Everybody's talking 'bout it!

[ May 23, 2011, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2011, 05:17 PM:
 
JD, you earned the right, but use it with discretion, only when mightily provoked. And, not more than once a week. If you need more than that, we will talk about it at that time.

dogboy, Rancho's cars are a lot more attractive, those gold stripes are pretty sharp, I must admit.

Funny, I only pass through Victorville on the freeway, I don't know if I have ever seen their police cars? Who's that ugly guy?

49 is okay, even if he is a dickhead popo. I like having him around.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2011, 05:35 PM:
 
There is a fish that looks a lot like those gar, but in the ocean and I have never seen one as big as what's shown by Patterson. I always called them needlefish, they take a feathered jig like you would use for mackerel.

I don't know what is meant by "you don't hook them"? Is it because the rope strands snag in the teeth, or what? Looks like good sport.

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 23, 2011, 05:40 PM:
 
Yes LB the Rancho units and similiar are pretty sharp.

The ugly guy is just a turd I know.LOL!!!

I bet you drive by Victorville on the way to those secret hunting spots?
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 23, 2011, 05:52 PM:
 
Yes Leonard, gar have hundreds of small teeth, they bite but never get hooked.

Patterson we used to bow fish them things, pretty fun. Have to try the rope lures.

A buddy of mine took this pic Saturday while I was cleaning fish.

Guess the wife and kid was right about "one on the ground". We've been lucky for the most part the last few years but these things have came back with a vengance this year.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 23, 2011, 05:54 PM:
 
LB, yes you are correct. Teeth get tangle in the rope strands. PIA to remove. Good sport for sure. Some locals take them from me to eat. I have not tried one yet.
 

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Posted by G.T. (Member # 3827) on May 23, 2011, 07:07 PM:
 
It's high time for another >>>>>>>G.T.<<<<<<<< observation.

Ken - Dogboy. If I recall, you were a dirty moderator in the day at Predatormasters so................you tryin' to fake us into believing that you were a clean cop? Shit, I think you even made the likes of Redfrog blush with your backroom charades. Sounds like you also yourself got canned at the San Bernie deputy dawg department. I ain't buying your righteous indignation, Mr. Lawdog and have always had a bad feeling about you. I hope to hell that you ain't a cop anymore.

Randy Buker. If memory serves me correctly, you had booked a hunting trip with non other then Mr. Redfrog, only to find out that this frenchie was NOT a legally licensed guide-outfitter in the Prov of Alberta. You didn't get refunded on your 2,000 USD deposit. Moral of the story: True Albertans HATE frenchie Quebec'ers, no way in hell was a frog going to be on the up and up in that Prov, you should of known some kind of scam was in the works when Redfrog was blowing about being legit. BTW, the frog still has a "Redfrog Outfitters" banner flashing at Predatormasters. Then, Mr. Buker, you helped form the NPHA to get away from the heavy handed tactics practiced at Predatormasters. Lo and behold, the staff at NPHA was just has devious and heavy handed as the PM backroom boys. The NPHA is dying a slow death with only about 3 hits a day. the current PredatorMasters backroom boys are laughing it up

4949 has tried to remain positive and honest throughout this debacle. I'm not saying he's 100% in the right, but at least he's making one hell of an effort to put his best foot forward.

There, finally I've left the long awaited opinion from G.T.

[ May 23, 2011, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: G.T. ]
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 23, 2011, 07:27 PM:
 
That ought stir up a bunch of shit.

On another note, I've never eaten gar either, but was watching Swamp People or something the other day and they were making gar balls. News to me.

Elbee, we have three kinds of gar in KS - alligator gar, long-nosed gar and short-nosed gar. Each and everyone is a swimming dinosaur, honest to God. You can't hook 'em because that snout is just plain solid bone with a bajillion razor sharp teeth. Nasty bastards but they fight like a sumbitch when you snag 'em. On hot summer days, you can look out across an impoundment that has them - often undesirable leftovers from the river flooding into a lake or pond - and they'll be sunning on the surface looking like sticks. I've seen them as much as 6 feet long.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 23, 2011, 07:43 PM:
 
The okie record alligator gar is 184 pounds and 7'8" taken on the red river. They do get big.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 23, 2011, 07:56 PM:
 
Lance, I should have called you up. I was solo pickin those shrooms just like most my fishing...and predator hunting lol.

I agree they are dinosaurs! I like them. That one pictured was only 51" I want to catch a 70"er.

Sometime this summer im hoping to go noodling with some okie friends I have. Always wanted to try it.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 23, 2011, 08:13 PM:
 
Those damn Gar are fun to shoot with a bow for sure but when i was in Jr. High we do like Lance said and find a shitty little runoff hole on a hot afternoon and snag em by using treble hooks with a treble for a stinger too.....those big ones fight like hell when you snag em in the side like that.

I just got back from Bass fishing a local pit.....caught about a dozen.....1 to 2 pounds.....nothing big but still fun.

I've been watching the news about Joplin MO. ....man that's rough....I feel bad for those people. I've lived at the end of tornado alley most of my life and have seen many twisters first hand but I never get used to seeing the devastating effects of such an awesome force. Think what you would feel like when you walk down the street in your neighborhood and feel like you're lost because everything is unrecognizable.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 23, 2011, 08:23 PM:
 
Patterson, I never had much luck with the sandies this late. Can usually catch a few below the dams, but not the big runs like april.

Lance, it has rained here all day. The news said we got around 7 inches by 6pm.Another round came through this evening that probably dumped another inch. water everywhere.

This is the bridge going down the lane to my house. Normally, I can walk standing upright under the bridge. The highway was closed down for a few hours due to high water also. Fortunatly, no rotation this go round, but there is always tomorrow.

Maintain
 

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Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on May 23, 2011, 08:27 PM:
 
Philly cops , got to love them

Off-Duty Philly Cop Charged With Murder Over Super Soaker

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/Family-Says-Off-Duty -Officer-Killed-Man-Over-a-Water-Gun-92666574.html

and again

http://www.philly2philly.com/politics_communi ty/politics_community_articles/2010/1/6/42851/philadelphia_police_department_needs_f

[ May 23, 2011, 08:28 PM: Message edited by: George Ackley ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2011, 08:29 PM:
 
I often wonder why they seem to build a lot of mobile homes in tornado country. Is that true, or am I mistaken?

Another thing. They always have something to say about our earthquakes, which we take in stride. But those twisters, I mean they stomp the shit out of everything in their path.

And, you heard what happened to Dorothy.

gh/lb

edit: "sandies" meaning white bass? They are not very popular, at all, out here. We have a couple lakes in central CA that are sort of infested, and I think they poison the whole lake to get rid of them.

[ May 23, 2011, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 23, 2011, 09:01 PM:
 
Tornadoes are an acquired taste I guess. But they do pound the crap out of everything.

You guys hate white bass......WTF....really.

I think the reason you see so many mobile homes in tornado alley is because there used to be real homes there until the last tornado went through it's just quicker to tow in a new home every couple years compared to framing one up from scratch.

[ May 23, 2011, 09:04 PM: Message edited by: JD ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 23, 2011, 09:44 PM:
 
Having lived in a trailer once I will never again but not due to the twisters. You get a decent twister and even a brick home will be leveled to the slab.

I went up and looked at the damage of the May 3rd twister in Moore. Pulled the dang grass out of the ground. Nothing survived above ground and it was over a mile wide at times. Eerie!

This one at Joplin will likely turn out to be the worst yet. The guy who took the picture I posted talked to a friend of his who lives in Joplin. Said well over 100 dead, he just left his daughters apt complex and it was destroyed. He found her alive. Told a few other stories... it was bad.

Death toll now at 116

[ May 23, 2011, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 23, 2011, 09:47 PM:
 
Forgot, they hadn't got to Walmart or Home depot and both of them were pancaked. No telling how many folks were inside but I hope they got out.
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on May 23, 2011, 10:11 PM:
 
Joplin From the Air

I'll take 115 for 3 months straight over 30 minutes of what causes this. Bless their hearts.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 23, 2011, 10:39 PM:
 
More like 3 minutes.......bad shit!
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 23, 2011, 10:40 PM:
 
Brothers brick house just to the left in pic. It was still in tact after a F-4 or f-5 passed by about a block away. Remaining houses in the area destroy or damaged too much to salvage..



Church in front center with school on the left, twister passed between them. Half of school was saved but the church had to be torn down..



Grain elavator. There was two but only one left standing along with the bins, minus there tops.


It was kinda interesting walking through town afterwards seeing what homes where still standing and salvagable and seeing the ones that could not be repaired and the ones missing except for the basement and first floor..
It seemed that any of the houses built from the 70's on did'nt stand much of a chance. Had one couple that lived in a trailor house and they survived by hanging onto the front cement steps and railing, after the twister passed both of them looked like they tangled with one of those african porky's.. A class mate of mine was in his camaro when the twister hit and was found alive and just shooken up, The twister moved him and his car roughly 3 blocks before it rested aganst a tree and what was left of a house..

I was out at the farm when the twister passed by my place which was headed straight for town..
After it passed I jumped in the truck and headed for town watching it up in front of me as I drove.. I got to the edge of town and could'nt drive any farther due to all the big trees laying across the road so I had to go in on foot.. I got about two blocks from my mothers house and met one of my sisters wandering recless down the street. I did'nt reconize her at first due to being all covered in mud and debree. I got her to calm down some and asked about the rest of the famaly which she said was still inside the house in the basement.. Had to pry a old door loose so they could get out and everyone was shooken up but ok health wise...
Its been about 12 years now since it happened and one thing that sticks is the reaction from anyone that was there is anytime a gust of wind blows or a dark cloud passes over head or a crack of thunder everyone stops what they are doing and looks to the sky..

One more thing I have to say and thats about FEMA and the RED-cross, both where there the very next day and they did everything possable to help from provideing food and water and places for people to stay that lost there homes and provideing material for temparary patch jobs on some of the houses, I have no complaints what so ever..
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 23, 2011, 11:06 PM:
 
True Tim, people are always just a little jumpy after that. The other thing you will never forget if you are close to a big one is the sound......hard to describe accurately, some say its like the sound of a freight train.....I would say a BIG LOUD freakin freight train might be similar.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2011, 12:21 AM:
 
OMG! Did somebody steal JD's password?

Gee! That was the nicest, sweetest post by JD to TA that I can ever remember?

Tim and Jason, sitting in a tree......
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on May 24, 2011, 02:43 AM:
 
Tim. where was that at?? the Red Cross is one organization that i do donate to. the've been here for the big floods and have really helped those in need out.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 24, 2011, 04:06 AM:
 

quote:

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OMG! Did somebody steal JD's password?

Gee! That was the nicest, sweetest post by JD to TA that I can ever remember?

Tim and Jason, sitting in a tree......

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quote:

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Can't remember the exact name, but I think it was close to Mankato if it's the on I'm thinking of. Church does look familiar.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 24, 2011, 05:59 AM:
 
49, I know I said I was done but I have to answer a few items in your last post and maybe explain a little about myself and our situation.

First of all I was calling BS on you long before it was the cool thing to do. So much so that LB asked me to back off. For that I apologise. Not for calling BS or that it got out of hand but the fact that I didn't think it was that bad.

You popped up on my radar on the other forum about the gun control issue, we've talked about this, no need to rehash it. I told you I am passionate about my beliefs and gun control is on my list. I will uphold the constitutional right to keep and bear arms to the end.

I have never let my beliefs go by the curb just to fit into the pack. In fact, I've never really fit in much anywhere and have chosen to do my own thing.

I never tried to put words in your mouth either, I tried to quote you word for word. Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying but unless I missed something or you misunderstood what I said, I replied only to what you said.

You see I don't have an anti-authority attitude like you assumed, but I do take issue when that authority is abused. I also think you're a good guy or I wouldn't have went through the trouble trying to show you where we disagreed and why.

"She stood up for her rights without trying to use someone else to do it."

She used everyone on the bus and the police, same as the OC dude. That's what advocates do... and again we drew different conclusions to the same instance. That's ok though, it's what challenges our minds to think for ourselves.

No hard feelings on my part and I will take you to task if you spout anymore BS
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 24, 2011, 06:02 AM:
 
You guys who live in tornado country or have family that does, I don't see how you deal with the unknowing that may decend upon you.

I mean you all work hard for what you have and when Mr.Tornado comes, it generally takes everything you have away.

We have earthquakes here and those can sure pucker you up, but not like those who deal with tornados.
 

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Posted by 32below (Member # 2075) on May 24, 2011, 06:33 AM:
 
One thing about a tornado, move over a mile or so and it goes by. Earth quakes and hurricanes may require a move of several hundred miles to get out of the way. I'll take the tornado. Besides it gives me and the neighbors something to watch while gathered in the front yard. Not so bright? Maybe, but the basement is a few steps away and momma and the kids are already there. Have lived in Oklahoma and Kansas for nearly 54 years. Have seen the aftermath numerous times. By the same token concrete trucks and bull racks run up down the highway through town. Could just as easily get run over.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 24, 2011, 07:35 AM:
 
Yep I know I said I was out of the OC issue to, but let me conclude with some thoughts on perspectives in general.

I'll echo just a little of what Tom says.

49 I have seen many guys in LE who are passionate in their arguments on a given issue. NOTHING wrong with that. Everyone read mine. I stand by my beliefs as you do. NO ONE will change my perspective of LE anytime soon.

I would have never came into this particular thread if there had been no AUDIO tape to work with. To difficult without one.

I will step up on LE issues whenever I feel the need or just because I CAN and slug it out with whoever I choose too. It's my right.

My perspectives and 49's differed without question. Two perspectives from opposite ends of the Country.

Based on 49's last posting, I would simply conclude his unblemished record, not coming across corruption, not having to arrest a fellow cop and limited exposure to Internal Affairs issues, tells me he works for a department that doesn't have too many issues. THAT is a good thing. Wish I could of worked at a place like that.

I can tell you 49 if this posting took place say 15 years ago and BOTH of us were on this website, I WOULD of been standing RIGHT next to you, JD and some others would be hammering me too. I guarantee that.

There was a time I would defend LE to the death, almost to a fault. NOT anymore.

My record is not unblemished. My record is tainted as a result of retaliation for arresting some with badges or connected to the political world who had money and influence. Some of them are just as evil and dirty as the gang bangers I arrested. OH WELL!!!

Were my fellow cops the line dogs the crooks, I am speaking with those I worked side by side with, NO it was the brass who were the true crooks at the end of the day.

My posting of that link at iepolitics was for anyone to read and see for themselves on that issue. Just the tip of a large iceberg too!

Anyways I was so loyal to the line troops and focused on my job, I wasn't paying close attention to much of the corruption because it was above me. I worked graveyard most of my career, so I wasn't around the brass to often.

In some respects I was stupid and naive. In other aspects, I was just plain refusing to admit there was a DEEP rooted problem. My bad.

LIKE I was stupid and naive when I became a moderator at Predator Masters. Lesson learned on that one too. My ass is still growing back.

So if one is not experienced on certain issues even though he is part of the system, they might walk into an ambush at some point in time.

We have soldiers who have served, but never been in actual combat. ARE they in a position to talk about combat operations? Many say they are.

We have many coyote hunters on this website. Are they really experienced coyote hunters? Many say they are.

I worked with cops who NEVER worked the streets. Are they really able to talk about corruption and how to deal with people like the kid who was OC carrying and the situation that unfolded? Many will tell you they are.

The real answer is YES to all. But the reality is someone out there at some point MIGHT take them to task and call BULLSHIT on what they are saying. They might be right, they might be wrong in their comments.

Feelings will be hurt, folks will be pissed. SUCH is life. Guess you can shake hands at the end of the discussion or continue to hate the topic or the poster.

ONE thing that in reality is cool about this website is, you can slug it out if you choose too.

We know this thread would have been locked down and some banned at other locations. A PERFECT example of why political correctness is destroying our great Country.

The YEA we know it's wrong and things are going bad but we CAN'T say it out loud because it will UPSET someone. FUCK that!!!

I lurked here since I registered in 2008. When I registered here for the most part, it was to fuck with Redfrog when he came over playing his silly little games.

Since that time I spent my time reading some pretty good stuff and picking up some pretty good information on coyote hunting.

Many topics I simply refused to read for too long. THIS one got my attention.

I make no apologies AT THIS time to 49. I don't dislike him in anyway. I respect his passion on the subject matter.

For those who don't like what I said or how I said it, you can tell me about it if you ever meet me.

I know one thing. If I had ever gone to a Huntmasters get together early on, I'd have been sitting around the campfire listening to the old hats tell their war stories and had little to say unless asked.

Good luck 49 till you get to retire. Stay safe, keep doing what your doing. STAY PROUD!!!
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 24, 2011, 09:15 AM:
 
Hey, you guys leave me alone, t-bag made a post and I responded the same way I would if anyone else would've made that post. Sheeesh! Quit pickin on me, you mean bastards.

49........WTF...are you my therapists now or something?

Anyway 49.....quit your damn whining, nobody thinks your a crooked cop and nobody hates you because you're LE and nobody hates LE just for the sake of hating LE (well maybe LB)

You have your opinions and we have ours.....so....are you saying that you're so much better than us lowly ignorant civies that you would be insulted to have to hang out here with us in our ignorance and unfounded opinions?

I think YOU should look in the mirror and realize that just because we choose to look objectively at LE without feeling the need to stick up for anyone it doesn't make us idiots, you aren't the only one with an education and integrity, I feel as though you have insinuated that the rest of us here have no integrity, and arent smart enough to have an opinion, maybe you don't like what I've said to t-bag in the past....too bad.....but you are NOT the only person in the world who sticks up for their buddies or conducts themselves with integrity or has an education or is qualified to have an opinion and share that opinion in public.

Personally, I hope you stay but if you choose to go because of ANY of the bullshit reasons you just posted then I would say that I misjudged you.

49, I think your view is jaded but I also believe you ARE indeed a man of integrity and a good cop and the kind of friend that would always be there in a pinch.........but you're not my thereapist .....my therapist committed suicide years ago
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 24, 2011, 10:11 AM:
 
"But I understand there are strong feelings regarding law enforcement here, and it is easy to get people to jump on the anti- BAD LE bandwagon."

Fixed it for you, maybe one day you'll understand.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 24, 2011, 10:53 AM:
 
Damn Jason YOU are a hard man, HARDER than WOODPECKER lips. LOL!!!!

I'll only screw with you when I am behind the keyboard. NEVER in person. To afraid of the ass whoopin I'd recieve.

YEA 49 I gotta agree with JD at least once.

NO reason to leave!!!! Besides I am wrong and don't know what I am talking about. WERE even.

If I thought you were a crook I'd tell you here in this open forum, tell you to FO and then say I'll see you at the campout and we can knuckle down.

Then when I get into trouble with everyone I could claim "post tramatic stress". YEA that's what I'd say.

Don't leave because of me for sure. I'll be happy to leave before you do.

[ May 24, 2011, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2011, 11:18 AM:
 
It's the same old story. Because of policy, what you say is yours to defend, management can stick it's nose in, on one side of the issue or another, but at the end of the day, you have to own your words, MANO E MANO.

Now, I hate to see things get personal. I have always believed in discussing issues with vigor and I guess my hot blooded heritage occasionally offends. I am a strong believer in "devil's advocate" since I like a good debate for the stimulation it offers. Memo to smithers; I get a half chub from it.

I'm going to be pissed if 49 sneaks off, so be warned. You represent an institution and seem willing to do it.

Are we really THAT hostile toward law enforcement? Unusually hostile? Maybe those you are in contact with are sugar coating the particulars of the "US VERSUS THEM" situations? I see unvarnished honest opinion.

Nobody likes a bossy cow, and especially somebody with the authority to toss your ass in jail, if they are in a bad mood. We thought you could handle it and let it roll off your back. It's not personal, at risk of repeating myself.

Have we beat this issue to death, or what?

gh/lb

and solved nothing, but everybody got to say their piece, nobody was banned and no deletes, no moderating bullshit, and we took no prisoners. Good job.

[ May 24, 2011, 11:22 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 24, 2011, 11:34 AM:
 
LB I must be honest. I am trying in a desperate way to get a special title below my name.

Maybe something along the lines of BALL BUSTER vs FUZZ BUSTER. But's it's true I have busted the FUZZ.

On a serious note, AMEN to what you said.

[ May 24, 2011, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Ken ]
 

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Posted by G.T. (Member # 3827) on May 24, 2011, 12:10 PM:
 
re: my comments on this post directed at Ken.

I would like to apologize. I'm sure that one of the prerequisites of being a PMS backroom boy is that you turn deviant.......at least temporarily.

I know you've apologized or at least tried to make things right over that issue and have admitted to mistakes and made an attempt to mend fences and move on.

That PMS backroom shithole can really fuck up some otherwise good people. I know that Nikonut had to muster up the courage to get the hell out of there then face the music to all the victims of PMS shenanigisms.

FUCK YOU PMS, how that cess pool of non talent still can pay for bandwidth is beyond me. Oh yea, I know you "non profit" boys have advertising revenue coming in to pay the bills, probably enough to stick some $$$ in your pockets, too, right, fellows?

LB, I just noticed my moniker. I would prefer that you change it to "highly opinionated do gooder"

Thank You in advance

[ May 24, 2011, 12:14 PM: Message edited by: G.T. ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2011, 12:28 PM:
 
Geeze, I wish I could remember that little episode, 10 years ago in PMS? Somebody did something that the braintrust didn't like and you were like; man, let me at him, LB is gonna get his just desserts, if he did this foul deed I will take care of him!

But, I didn't do what was suspected, so I hid in the closet until I got hungry, but you never showed up. Later, two separate cases of amnesia, and we don't even remember anything about it, except I, your willingness to perhaps teach me a lesson. We talked about it, remember?

I thought you were the "enforcer"? Like in hockey? The one designated to even things up and so what if he sits in the penalty box for a while, others were better at offense and defense. You were the muscle.

Something like that, I think? I might fall down the stairs. BWAHAHAHA. What you got to say to that, eh?

gh/lb
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2011, 12:49 PM:
 
GT, let me think about it.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 24, 2011, 01:14 PM:
 
GT no apology needed my friend. If you had taken away money from me, or harmed my family as a result of ANYTHING that happened, then I'd simply kill you upon finding you.

THAT did not happen, so no harm no foul even though you are posting under a screen name.

No application was filled out or "I swear to alligance" when I signed up at PM. Randy Reeves called me the night I signed on. There was a message in his words, I DID NOT pick up on them at the time. Again MY mistake.

YES I toot my horn, but YES I will admit I screwed up too!!!

I just did not know the bigger "picture" and the history of certain situations that involved certain people.

BLIND LOYALTY to ANY organization at sometime in your life MIGHT bite you in the ass. It did me, not only at PM but in law enforcement.

But I must put on my "big boy" pants and deal with it the best I can. That is what most REAL men do.

MAKE NO MISTAKE, there are just a couple from PM former STAFF, that if WE EVER cross paths, I will be in their face and hope to GOD they show their BALLS and talk smack as they did behind the keyboard.

The ONLY thing I could think of at the time was to apologize publicly and privately to a few who was victimized by my "new sheriff in town" attitude.

Thank you for the words none the less.

I have seen your recent postings here. I will not say they are unjustified or without merit.

I will not comment on those posting one way or another.

All I will say is I believe you are preaching to the choir.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 24, 2011, 02:35 PM:
 
Hey Ken, along with what 32 said, when you're raised in this country, you just accept them as a way of life. The ones that do a lot of damage should get a name, like a hurricane, because when you look at one, or the aftermath, you begin to think of them almost as if they have a mind of their own - like thy were a nafarious, evil living thing while they were here.

But, even at that, I'll take a twister over an earthquake, landslide, wildfires, or hurricanes any day. For us natives, tornadoes are a spectator sport, thus the line in that song a couple years ago, "grab a six pack and a lawn chair, there's a tornado comin'"

It's a redneck thing. As far as losiong everything? Yep, if your windows go, the microshards of glass ruin all your clothes, your funiture, your everything. We keep our good stuff in the basement, the best stuff in plastic totes and fire safes, and pay the State Farm guy every month.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 24, 2011, 02:49 PM:
 
Well Cdog, those who sit on a lawn chair with a 6 pack and say a tornado's coming NO BIGGY, have my respect.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 24, 2011, 02:50 PM:
 
Hope all you Oklahoma guys are safe. Bunch of tornadoes already on the ground in the last few hours.

Our turn tonight. I still have yet to see a tornado so they still facinate me and I want to see one. I dont want to see people get hurt or lives taken away but i like to witness the awesome forces in nature and tornadoes have eluded me.

If one is close enough for me to catch and take pictures of I will go after it. So far in 3 years no such luck.

Again hoping everyone is safe down there.
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 24, 2011, 02:55 PM:
 

quote:

---

Yep, I don't like it when people intentionally cause trouble with police officers, not even to fulfill their own agenda.

---

This is my last post and then I am done, since it is basically a rehash of my previous stuff, but I can't get my arms around this one to see it from 49's perspective.

How is conducting yourself in a legal manner, following the laws of your city and state, and not doing anything criminal, considered to be "intentionally causing trouble with police officers?"

It just doesn't compute with me and you have never offered an intelligent arguement on this question.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 24, 2011, 02:56 PM:
 
I guess it's the aftershock of Joplin but my banker called and canceled our appointment, closing early due to storms?

They are predicting a bad night, better go get the lawn chairs out.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 24, 2011, 02:57 PM:
 
Dustin,

Just make sure you get to the south or west of it, preferably to the south from the looks of things today, and make sure you see it moving laterally. If it isn't moving left or right, it's coming at you and anywhere within about five miles of an existing vortex, secondary vortices can drop down and kick your ass before you know it. Also, tornadoes rotate counterclockwise so they may take a right-hand turn. So, if behind them, stay off the right hand side unless you want more fun than you opted for. I've had two instances where I got so close to rain-wrapped tornadoes that I could not see that the wind I was feeling went from blowing away from the vortex at, oh, a comfy 10-20 mph to suddenly ( and I mean in the time span of a second at most)reversing itself and pulling stuff INTO the cell at about 70 mph. That's called the inflow, or updraft and when that happens, you're in deep shit. FYI!

I check the NOAA board every day this time of the year for probabilities of severe weather. What they have on there today is the most intense set up I've ever seen, far worse even than the day Chapman, KS was hit four years ago. My house is right under the right hand circle in the % on the "10%". Dustin would be just to the right and north of me.


 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 24, 2011, 03:31 PM:
 
LOL...Ken, I aint no badass nor would I give out an asswhoopin, shoot you...yes........asswhoopin...naw, I'm too old for that. I called TA a few names a while back and it upset a few people.....obviously 49 was deeply moved by my need for a therapist. I would more than likely tell a dirty joke and offer you a beer before I would pick a fight.

Lance, I've experience an updraft once, damn near took the back door off my house(was standing there with the door open) and all the lawn furniture lifted up and over the railing of the deck.....scared the shit outta me, thought for sure I had pushed my luck a little too far that day. We were watching a large cell and little did we know nor could we see the tails dropping directly above us and sweeping lower as they headed for town.

You guys keep an eye on the skies.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 24, 2011, 05:15 PM:
 
JD, I don't know what to think about you Missouri ruffians...

We've had a few twisters on the ground today and have one storm 30 miles away headed for us. I'm headed out to the deck so I can get a real good look.

Along the original theme, my SIL came by today and when he left the shop he got pulled over for no seat belt. The cop was coming off the midnight crew and tuned up. He asked 50 questions, wanted to do a search and seizure sounds like but couldn't find anything.

SIL went down and paid the fine ($20) and wondered if he still had to show up in court. My daughter called another cop, one we know and asked him how it worked cause they are supposed to be in Jamaica on his court date.

He thought for a minute and said yes he had to be there but not to worry he'd take the tickets so they wouldn't go to waste...

Moral of the story, you can't paint em all with the same brush.
 

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Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on May 24, 2011, 05:29 PM:
 
Wow I am watching the news. You folks in the mid-west battin down the hatches.

Just called my buddy at work and told him about Oklahmoma City and surrounding areas. Most of his kin live around there.

He was off the phone quick to make some calls.

YOU all be safe. Kelly Jackson you still with us?

LOL JD. Good to know. I can dodge a bullet.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 24, 2011, 05:57 PM:
 
Thanks for the heads up Lance!! Hoping to see one soon.

Here's a little peak into my mind.....I've often wondered/wanted to drive/watch a truck go 90-100 mph into a smaller tornado that is coming at me just to see if you'd come out the otherside still on all 4. I think it would make neat video. A helmet with a visor and a 5 point harness may be needed though....I mean there has to be a point where your going fast enough with enough momentum to only have the winds momentarily push you side to side for a second or two. And they are opposing wind forces. Would be neat.

But im just a countryboy turd that likes adrenaline
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on May 24, 2011, 06:10 PM:
 
Yep, another line coming in tonight. Been on the porch watching the show. Heard it was bad by OKC.

Biggest problem here has been the flooding yesterday. Couldn't get in or out of town till around 11 a.m.

Patterson, I'd bet on the twister.

Finding out more and more people from here were in Joplin sunday. Some are safe, some haven't been heard from. A couple I know lost their son in the pizza hut.

Maintain
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 24, 2011, 06:12 PM:
 
It's mostly East of us now (Ada), we got some sideways rain but that was it. Ya'll really need to see some of the video though, lots better than the OJ Simpson chase. Those helos with HD cameras are cool!

One was a semi pulled over on I40 that a small twister hit. Pushed it backwards and destroyed the trailer all on HD television. Driver was alright but they said it looked like a mail truck, it's air mail now.

Another one was what looked like a home with a basement, inside the basement was a safe room and it is all that is left.

Quite a few bare slabs and piles of debris that once were peoples homes. Sadly a 3 YO boy is missing and 4 people have died.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 24, 2011, 06:28 PM:
 
Patterson;
Be careful what you wish for...............

There's a reason that EF-5's are called 'The Finger of God'

Stay safe.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on May 24, 2011, 06:37 PM:
 
That's the point I was going to make, Koko. You cannot judge the power of a tornado by the size of the vortex. With twisters, size doesn't always matter. The Perry, TX tornado was a rope for its entire life span and it was so powerful that it peeled the asphalt off the ground. The only way to gauge a tornado's true rating and strength is in the post-game wrap up by assessing the damage. Beyond that, you assume that they'll kill you and go from there.

Sorry to hear about that, Geordie. My wife banks with Great Plains Credit Union and hasn't been able to make a withdrawal from the ATM since Sunday because they're based out of Joplin. Hoping their file servers, especially those off-site, were waaaayyyyy off site.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 24, 2011, 06:45 PM:
 
sak81 youre pretty close..

Here is some info on the twisters from Wikipedia.

quote:

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The 1998 Comfrey – St. Peter tornado outbreak was an unseasonably-strong tornado outbreak which affected the Upper Midwest region of the United States on March 29, 1998. A strong area of low pressure combined with a warm front and favorable upper-level dynamics to produce 16 tornadoes across the region—14 in Minnesota and two in Wisconsin. Thirteen of the tornadoes in Minnesota were spawned by a single supercell thunderstorm. This supercell remained intact for approximately 150 miles (240 km) as it moved across the southern part of the state during the late-afternoon hours.

Over $235 million in damage (1998 USD) was recorded from the tornadoes, two people were killed, and 21 others were injured. Most of the damage was caused by three tornadoes—one rated F4 on the Fujita scale that hit the town of Comfrey, Minnesota, an F3 that hit St. Peter, Minnesota, and an F2 that hit Le Center, Minnesota. Gustavus Adolphus College in St. Peter was especially hard-hit, with several buildings damaged or destroyed, 2,000 trees lost, and nearly 80% of the windows on the campus shattered. In Comfrey, 75% of the structures in the town were damaged or destroyed, including the local K–12 school. Seven counties in southern Minnesota were later declared federal disaster areas.

The outbreak broke many early-season tornado records for the state of Minnesota. The 14 total tornadoes in the state were the most to ever touch down on a single day in March. The F4 tornado was the strongest ever recorded in the state in March, and its 67-mile (108 km) path the longest tornado path ever recorded in Minnesota. In December 1998, the United States Department of Commerce awarded a bronze medal to the Twin Cities office of the National Weather Service (NWS) for providing excellent service to the public during the outbreak event.

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quote:

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quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yep, I don't like it when people intentionally cause trouble with police officers, not even to fulfill their own agenda.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is my last post and then I am done, since it is basically a rehash of my previous stuff, but I can't get my arms around this one to see it from 49's perspective.

How is conducting yourself in a legal manner, following the laws of your city and state, and not doing anything criminal, considered to be "intentionally causing trouble with police officers?"

It just doesn't compute with me and you have never offered an intelligent arguement on this question.

---

Tlb, I will try to explain my feelings on this. Lets start with open carry in Philadelphia. I think we can all agree it is not a common occurence there. Our hero wants to make a statement on open carry in Philadephia. That's fair enough in some respects, and as Tom pointed out is similar to Rosa Parks on the bus (I looked that one up). Now, to my way of thinking, our hero must also understand that by making his statement, he is going to put himself in precarious position with the police, just as Rosa Parks did (she was arrested for her action in not giving up her seat). Now the police, who aren't accustomed to seeing open carry in the City of Brotherly Love, tend to get a bit excited. This to me is human nature, but to others here they say it is heresy. Not to argue that point, but I think we can all pretty much be in agreement up until now.

Now for the nitty gritty. The police, whether through overreaction, lack of experience, knowledge, leadership, or whatever, deal with the open carry guy in a harsh manner. I think we are still in agreement. Someone (a cop) then makes the decision to tell the OC subject to go to his knees, which is a common practice for handcuffing suspects. The subject then REFUSES to comply, thus creating an even bigger scene. My whole point with all this "drivel," as JD would say, is that the guy knowingly did something he KNEW would cause a ruckus with the police, and when he did so, he FAILED to listen to commands. The cops were trying to make the scene safe in their minds. Yeah I know, they didn't have a right to do it and all the other arguments I have already heard. But the guy knew he was going to arouse the suspicions of the cops. He should have just listened to them and sorted it all out later when the scene was calm. Right or wrong, this is how I see it.

Now for one last admission on my part, and I have thought long and hard about this one. Having been in situations where there was chaos present, and myself having had to deal with subjects who would not listen to my commands under these circumstances, it really irked me when I heard the guy refusing the cops' commands on the audio. So...I admit that due to previous experiences I am a little biased on this aspect. Now you know why I think the guy was a turd. This is the main reason, in my mind intentionally causing trouble, along with his other exploits which don't exactly help his image.

So there you have it. My own personal bias in dealing with uncooperative subjects. I still think this makes the guy a turd by the way.
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 24, 2011, 06:54 PM:
 
Geordie, sorry to hear about that. My parents just moved out of that area of MO to AZ back in November.

My tornado theory is just a day dream. I can't afford the fuel to go 100mph.

Our reservoirs are all tied up with the new water. I suspect the water levels will be jumping big time. At least some better catfishing will be had in the creeks.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 24, 2011, 06:58 PM:
 
Let's see if you still wanna play chicken
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43159213/ns/weather/?GT1=43001
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 24, 2011, 07:03 PM:
 
I'd show you a pic of my Moms car but we have'nt found it yet...LOL
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 24, 2011, 07:08 PM:
 
Sorry, I'm gonna frame this one

"Now for one last admission on my part, and I have thought long and hard about this one. Having been in situations where there was chaos present, and myself having had to deal with subjects who would not listen to my commands under these circumstances, it really irked me when I heard the guy refusing the cops' commands on the audio. So...I admit that due to previous experiences I am a little biased on this aspect. Now you know why I think the guy was a turd. This is the main reason, in my mind intentionally causing trouble, along with his other exploits which don't exactly help his image."

You just admitted you're human like the rest of us.

Nothing infuriates someone "in charge" more than someone defying them, be it cop, teacher, parent or boss. It's human nature 49.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 24, 2011, 07:15 PM:
 
I don't disagree Tom. It pisses me off big time.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 24, 2011, 07:24 PM:
 
If you can imagine, I used to love the old cartoon picture of the mouse flipping the hawk off as it swoops in... kinda reminds me of someone.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 24, 2011, 07:33 PM:
 
here's the truck
http://www.wxii12.com/r/28009388/detail.html
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 24, 2011, 07:36 PM:
 
Well 49, I'm glad your not leaving, ya goofy bastard.

It's been raining like hell for about 2 hours now, river was flooding before it started, oh well, I live on a hill.

Koko....you aint lying bro....."finger of God" is right!

Patterson....don't do it!!
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on May 24, 2011, 08:45 PM:
 
Thanks 49 for clearing that up. To me this is a cop problem, not the turd's problem. They escalated the situation. I do agree that he should have obeyed the commands, because it is not worth getting shot by a scared cop. As soon as the situation was sorted out would be a more appropriate time to prove his point, and take a pound of flesh from the officers.

However, at no point should anyone, especially the police, in any part of the country, expect him to carry concealed just because it would make them more comfortable.
 

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Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on May 25, 2011, 07:08 AM:
 
Had one touch down a few miles north of me yesterday afternoon just after I got off work. Had golf ball size hail at the house. Hit Chicken City pretty hard about 30 miles north.

At 7:00 PM I was at a softball game of the north side of Duncan and it had not even rained there.

I don't like the twisters. I stay in Okie land for the chiggers.
 

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Posted by 32below (Member # 2075) on May 25, 2011, 07:14 AM:
 
Well Kelley you can have them damned things. Every time I go back to visit during chigger season I cover myself with bugspray. They always seem to target the manhood and scratching where it itches in an office filled with women is not a good thing. Now to keep the skeeters off. Wonder if any of the pharmaceitical companies make an ear tag that works on skeeters, I would wear one.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on May 25, 2011, 08:54 AM:
 
Chiggers!!...No thanks, I'll dodge tornadoes and hailstones but you can keep those miserable little suckers.

Patterson....take a look at this.....notice what happens to the 18 wheeler when it gets close. You don't stand a chance in a small truck...

Patterson playing chicken with a tornado
 

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Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on May 25, 2011, 09:24 AM:
 
Oh come on. Think about it. Smaller size vehicle than a semi, 3/4 ton pick up doing 100 mph not standing still. Worse case scenario is that you come out the back side and doing around 15-20 barrel rolls... Thats what the helmet and 5 point harness are for. Ok maybe a roll cage would be needed as well.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 25, 2011, 10:06 AM:
 
Obviously due to GLOBAL WARMING. Obama is the only one that can do something about it. Then, he will work on chiggers. I wonder if they also bother the women parts?

gh/lb
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on May 25, 2011, 01:30 PM:
 

quote:

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Well 49, I'm glad your not leaving, ya goofy bastard.

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Nah. If I leave completely then who is gonna be your therapist.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 25, 2011, 01:58 PM:
 

quote:

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Then, he will work on chiggers. I wonder if they also bother the women parts?

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