quote:

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His mother, concerned for his safety, called the police, and when the police located him, they searched his car and found two locked and unloaded handguns in the trunk.

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quote:

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I'm glad I'm an Okie, last night I had a machine gune and fully loaded mag on the seat of my truck along with my pistol

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quote:

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edit: you weren't the only one that missed the clues

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quote:

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.. Aitken's main problem was getting into an argument, causing a loved one to fear for his safety, and having guns in his car while doing so. Not exactly responsible gun ownership

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Why would you say that? To your knowledge, he never made any referance to the guns in his arguement or whatever disagreement he had with his family. Owning firearms and getting into a disagreement does not make one an automatic violent felon. I agree, none of us know the whole story, but the 'responsible gun ownership' comment is rather presumptive.
 

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Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on December 04, 2010, 05:50 AM:
 
No worries. I come on here to talk about predator hunting and guns and have fun talking to you guys. Y'all are a trip! I try to leave the cop stuff at work, although if something comes up and I can intelligently contribute, I will. It looks like my cover's blown now.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 04, 2010, 06:43 AM:
 
Del you are in the coptalk club now lol!

CrossJ,

Aitken drew unwanted attention to himself because of his actions. That is in all the articles I have read on this case. Gun laws aside, do you think an agitated, despondent / suicidal individual should be driving around with guns in his car? What if he was your relative, or better yet his ex wife were your sister? Do you see where I am going with this? Do you think this guy makes us responsible gun owners look good?

This case reminds me of a guy from my agency who was killed ten years ago. A despondent ex boyfriend grabbed his deer shotgun and was on his way to his ex girlfriend's work place. A relative called the police because he was concerned for the girl's safety, and maybe even thinking murder/suicide. Our guy intercepted the asshole before he could get to the girl at work. He took a shotgun blast to the side of his head for his heroic efforts, ending his life. Another one of our guys intercepted dirtbag after the killing. Dirtbag accidentally shot himself as he was trying to get his shotgun out of his truck to engage officer #2, killing himself. At least that's the official version.

I don't like the sound of the Aitken case guys. I don't like it one bit. Maybe Aitken is an innocent victim of gun laws which are too restrictive. Or maybe those police officers saved a life (or two) that day by arresting a despondent male, just having been involved in an argument, and seizing his guns. We will never know because we don't have a crystal ball.

All that having been said, I still don't agree with the gun laws here. I would like to move out of state some day, maybe to Arizona, but definately someplace warm, where the gun laws are more agreeable to me and my boys.

And if you guys don't believe my story, I will post the ODMP page to it, in order to verify.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 04, 2010, 10:06 AM:
 
Well, to me, we can just as easily ASSUME the police overreacted because of well, you know, their well known paranoia when guns are even mentioned.

If this guy intended to use his guns, they would have been in his lap or on the seat next to him, instead of locked and in the trunk.

Damn, NJ sounds more unattractive, (to me) by the minute.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 04, 2010, 12:14 PM:
 
49, there's a very distinct difference between you and DEL GUE, you should take note...

"Aitken drew unwanted attention to himself because of his actions. That is in all the articles I have read on this case. Gun laws aside, do you think an agitated, despondent / suicidal individual should be driving around with guns in his car? What if he was your relative, or better yet his ex wife were your sister? Do you see where I am going with this? Do you think this guy makes us responsible gun owners look good?"

Yes it's plain where your mind is drifting, yet anyone with a gun and made his momma worry should be detained? Reminds me of the guy with all the tools for a bank robbery in his trunk and being arrested for bank robbery.

Intent is not a convictable reason to arrest someone, nor search someone, nor detain someone.

That ought to get you going...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 04, 2010, 02:22 PM:
 
Well, I don't need to throw any more gasoline on the fire, BUT damned near anybody getting divorced or with an exwife COULD BE suspected of violence, and he better not even THINK about going to the range or hunting. That's how the Chuck Shumer types think, and how they write legislation to protect us all from the evil gun. And, the evil intent, as imagined.

You had better not miss a payment, either!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on December 04, 2010, 04:21 PM:
 
Guys,

49 didn't start this. He was asked to render his opinion, and he did. Some agree, some don't. It's America, and everybody is free to think whatever they like. He's already said he doesn't agree with the gun laws there, and that he would like to move elsewhere. He's there for the same reason that a lot of people are where they are: they were born there, have family there, and have a job there. The main thing is, he's one of us, a predator hunter, and he's pro-gun. He's on our side.

I know y'all llke to mix it up and get all up in a furball from time to time, but mebbeso it's time to let this one die and move on to something else. Whaddya say?

[ December 04, 2010, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: DEL GUE ]
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 04, 2010, 04:26 PM:
 
You said it there Leonard!!!!

I know ALL too well.

I was arrested at my mother's funeral thanks to my ex calling the cops and telling them she was afraid I might hurt her... after she refused to allow my two daughters to go to the funeral with their Grandpa.

I'm thankful an off duty county officer who also happens to be a lifelong friend, got word of this and came to the church to find me. He buffered me from the other seven county and three city officers that arrived so I could walk outside with dignity and then be arrested. My ex claimed I had several loaded guns. Lucky for me I sold every gun I had about a month prior knowing she might pull something like this! I still lost my gun rights for five years!

Maybe that's why I can relate to your #1 rule.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 04, 2010, 05:23 PM:
 
Yeah, but Del's right. I have been feeling a little sheepish about dragging him into this because our opinions tend to be a tad strong about this sort of thing.

Say what you need to say, but give poor ol' 49 a little slack. I'm not telling anybody what to do, but the issue wasn't caused by 49 and he's as puzzled by it as the rest of us.

Tom, if you can find it in your heart, please don't take any more shots at him. Cripes, he only lives there.

Good hunting. LB

[ December 04, 2010, 05:26 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 04, 2010, 05:28 PM:
 
I'd like to hear how an exwife can cause a man to lose his gun rights for five years because she has concerns.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 04, 2010, 08:00 PM:
 
I think Nick knows I'm just giving him a hard time. He ain't gonna jump off the edge cause of me.

I was merely pointing out the thought process of them vs. us but I'll back off.
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 04, 2010, 08:11 PM:
 

quote:

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I'd like to hear how an exwife can cause a man to lose his gun rights for five years because she has concerns.

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Simple, she took out an order of protection on me during our divorce... after all, I like to kill animals and I was an angry person at that time.

That morning she had called her party friend(a female Assistant DA), and told her I always had guns in my truck and that I had threatened her.
Although I did have permission under the op to talk to her about our kids... she claimed I also talked to her about her new guy... her word against mine and she held the papers not me(violation of OP =5years loss of FOID card in Illinois). Poor innocent woman or coyote hunting, bambi killing wildman... who do you think the judge(a black female)believed?

The ex gave me a big hug yesterday and said she was sorry for all the grief she had caused me... imagine that! After almost seven years!!!

[ December 04, 2010, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 04, 2010, 08:35 PM:
 
Man! That must have been hard to take? You know, some women would benefit by getting pasted in the snotnose. I've never done such a thing, but whenever I see a chick getting slugged in the movies, I never fail to get a big kick out of it! I laugh my silly ass off. To me, there is just something ridiculous about a woman getting sucker punched. I must have a weird sense of humor?

A woman has never done me wrong, but I know damned well, it happens....and the one I'm thinking about, the guy stayed with her! She ain't that good looking, either. Must be something there that I have not had the pleasure of experiencing? Like, she positively must be sensational, in the sack? Even then, I wouldn't spit on the best part of her. He will wind up regretting it. She's an alki and something will happen, sooner or later.

Okay, anybody have a good divorce story? Geordie? Anybody?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 04, 2010, 09:26 PM:
 
Believe me Leonard, there were many times I wanted desperately to clock her!
In Illinois, and it's also Federal... bodily harm or spousal abuse warrants a permanent ban on gun ownership!

That got passed several years ago and signed as law by Pres.Clinton, it's called the "Violence against Women Act".

Here's an opening excerpt:

"In 1994, the Congress of the United States, as part of the Crime Bill, enacted legislation empowering the federal government to participate in the fight against domestic violence. This legislation, called the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA), recognized that "violence against women is a crime with far-reaching, harmful consequences for families, children and society" (Domestic and Sexual Violence Data Collection, A Report to Congress under the Violence Against Women Act, 1 [NIJ Research Report 1996]). To combat this violent crime problem, VAWA created federal domestic violence crimes to be prosecuted by the Department of Justice. Consistent with this federal initiative, the Crime Bill also amended the Gun Control Act to include domestic violence-related crimes. Congress reaffirmed its commitment to fight domestic violence crimes by the enactment in the fall of 1996 of additional federal domestic violence crimes in both VAWA and the Gun Control Act."

It was even made retroactive!!!!
Nikonut
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 05, 2010, 06:21 AM:
 
Wow, I go deer hunting for an afternoon, then watch a fight on pay per view, and you guys think I am ready to jump ship!

BTW, Pawel Wolak, from Mount Arlington, NJ, TKO'd his opponent in the 7th round. Pawel is a personal friend of my family, and has mentored and trained both of my boys.

Anyhoo...

Tom, I thought we were somewhat of internet friends here? But you have taken a couple shots at me as of late. I don't know why? Leonard noticed it too. But it's okay my friend. We don't have to see eye to eye. Just as long as I haven't done something to offend you...

Nikon, kinda sucks what happened to you. But you are confusing domestic violence laws with this case. There is a big difference. Domestic violence laws are designed to protect the victim. They are a no win situation. Your ex wife calls and says she is in fear for her safety, and you have loaded guns in your possession, and the police have to act. That is the law. If we don't act upon domestic violence laws, then we are in violation of the law.

One more thing about domestic violence laws...they affect everyone, including LEO's. If you saw the painted rifle on my other thread, this gun was painted by a good friend of mine who I work with. He was on the "rubber gun squad" for a year because of a domestic issue with his wife. This incident has also destroyed his hopes for any type of promotion, though I don't think he knows this yet. I have other cop friends who were jammed up by ex wives and guns also.

But anyway, yeah, I look at this case a little differently than you guys. In somewhat agreeing with Leonard, the guy had the guns cased and unloaded. But where were the mags? Were the mags loaded but just not in the guns? That's why I wanted a copy of the police investigation report. With emotional, despondent people, you just never know. As cops we have to take these people seriously. Everyone is a threat until the situation has been made safe. This is basic police practice 101. I will agree I am a little more cynical than you guys are. But I still don't like this case at all, and I am still not convinced this guy Aitken is just an "innocent victim" of restrictive gun laws.

But I wouldn't feel welcome here if I didn't take a "blasting" from some of you fellars from time to time. Makes me feel wanted in an offhand sort of way. Del...yeah he is different than me. But he is as loyal as they come, if you hadn't noticed. He is the kind of guy I would want watching my back on a hot call, along with Andy, of course.

Edit for typos.

[ December 05, 2010, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 05, 2010, 07:31 AM:
 
Okay, good. You got the crying over with. Atta boy. You too, Tom. These guys can be very fragile and next thing you know, they ate the barrel of their 9mm.

Just kidding, just kidding. Glad to have you back.

Good hunting. LB

PS those god damned domestic violence laws are the biggest excuse for a collar there ever was. We should have hoped that Bernie Madoff slapped his wife, he would have got more than 150 years and much faster, too! We just don't need a distinction, assault, battery are enough offenses, the concept of preventive action REALLY RUBS ME THE WRONG WAY! Yeah, I think it is misused in many instances.
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on December 05, 2010, 08:45 AM:
 

quote:

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anybody have a good divorce story? Geordie? Anybody?

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No such thing as a 'good' divirce! Sometimes they are worth every dime though....LOL.

I agree the whole domestic violence thing is out of wack. It is definately slanted against men, and especially men who own firearms. Of course, that is if the ex is wicked enough to use the system that way. It seems all it takes is one unsubstantiated claim.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 05, 2010, 10:04 AM:
 
Yeah, but I didn't say good divorce, I said good divorce "story". I thought for sure we had quite a few lurking in the bushes.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on December 05, 2010, 10:09 AM:
 
oh hell.....sorry! Yeah, I have some pretty good ones. You have to kinda know the characters though.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 05, 2010, 10:21 AM:
 
You know, out here,hard core contest hunting was almost a sure thing to head to divorce court. I can only think of a handful that survived. About as rare as a mixed bag quadruple, cat, dog, fox and badger.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 05, 2010, 11:48 AM:
 
Hey Nick and Del,

Just so you both know... I wouldn't put on a uniform with a badge for ANYTHING! Those are big targets for street gang scum and anyone with a chip on their shoulder. I for one, certainly respect you and your right to self protection!!! By the way, I've lived next door to our police station for over 30years, so I know and have seen quite a few come and go.

I also agree there is probably more to the story but at the same time New Jersey's gun laws are absolutely ridiculous and very scary!

Nikonut

[ December 05, 2010, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 05, 2010, 11:52 AM:
 
Right, that's what I mean; don't sugarcoat it.

Good hunting. ElBee
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 05, 2010, 01:50 PM:
 
"Tom, I thought we were somewhat of internet friends here? But you have taken a couple shots at me as of late. I don't know why? Leonard noticed it too. But it's okay my friend. We don't have to see eye to eye. Just as long as I haven't done something to offend you..."

No problem here Nick, don't realy know about those "shots" you are referring to though.

As for the above, you came on scene making it known you were a cop and sort of "tested" the waters here. What did you expect to happen? DEL GUE left it at the office, just an observation.

It's hard for me to keep my mouth shut, I'll admit that but just when did this place become all politicaly correct? But regardless, I'll put the stick away.

edited, because a man's gotta have a little fun.

[ December 05, 2010, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 05, 2010, 03:35 PM:
 
Does anyone have any more professional questions?


 

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Posted by George Ackley (Member # 898) on December 05, 2010, 05:38 PM:
 
Yes,
I have to use my wife's small SUV to go back up deer hunting Wednesday it kinds small and I fear I will not have enough room for everything , so my question is would it be illegal to remove the front seat and just sit on the cases of beer

 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 05, 2010, 10:40 PM:
 
Sounds okay, to me George. As long as you keep any loaded handguns within easy reach. Oh, will you be driving through New Jersey? In that case be sure to drive with your emergency flashers on, and honk and wave often. That should convince any observer that you don't have any evil intent.

Tom, I met 49 on a handgun forum and personally invited him to register and participate on HM. There are not more than about six members that I have personally invited. All the rest are here by word of mouth. I don't hustle membership, at all, never have. A very small number stumble in here by accident. Maybe less than 1%?

But, yeah, he's a cop and don't mind telling ya.

Good hunting. LB

I'll bet probably nobody here knows my profession?

Good hunting. LB

edit: don't misunderstand, I don't have any objection if you have a beef, bring it up. I can't see where I would be sticking up for him, just because. He gets it from me, too. In this case, it's not his fault that he lives in New Jersey, so that's a bit below the belt. Agree?

[ December 05, 2010, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 06, 2010, 04:15 AM:
 
El Bee;
Didn't you used to own the "Upland Calif. Heating, Air Conditioning, and Adult Video Emporium???

What'd I Win??
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 06, 2010, 05:05 AM:
 
mechanical engineer, mostly mfg and automated systems. do I get a new title now!
 

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Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on December 06, 2010, 05:49 AM:
 
LB's a shrempboat captain.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 06, 2010, 09:44 AM:
 
All good guesses!
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 06, 2010, 10:48 AM:
 
Great titles quick thinker!

[ December 06, 2010, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 06, 2010, 02:12 PM:
 
Thanks for the plug Leonard.

Tom has a right to dislike me for my "cop" attitude, if that's how I come off. I was just a little surprised by the change in his attitude, that's all. I thought maybe I did something to offend him.

But it's all good. What you see is what you get with me. I don't go around advertising my occupation everywhere I go either. I just figured, if I am gonna be posting around here, there was no sense in keeping it a secret. Sooner or later someone was bound to make an anti-cop statement, and it would all come out anyway. Isn't that he we met? LOL!

This reminds me of one time Mrs. 49 and I were at Home Depot, when little 49 was a toddler and we had him in the shopping cart, you know where the kids go on top. This big biker looking dude, covered in tattoos, walks down the aisle towards us. I didn't recognize hime at first, but he recognized me even though I wasn't in uniform, and said hello to me. I then reaalized it was a guy I had arrested some time prior. The guy looked for whatever he needed in the aisle, said goodbye and left. Well Mre. 49 was in shock. I explained to her how I had dealings with the man, and why I always carry a weapon or two with me. She finally understood. But anyway, It seems that even though this guy was in my custody, I treated him with dignity and respect, and he remembered it, returning the respect in kind.

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people who don't understand mutual respect, and prior arrestees wouldn't always be so kind to recognize us off duty.

I guess "us vs. them" isn't always an absolute.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 06, 2010, 03:34 PM:
 
Hmm? I have never experienced an arrest. Closest was because of a little mischief at the Huntington Sheraton when I was about 16 and we had to sit in the lobby of the San Marino Police Department until our parents came and picked us up. OMG! What a traumatic experience, like having to stay after school, what was it called? Detention?

Well, San Marino might have more money than Beverly Hills and I guess they don't necessarily arrest little punks for being jerks? My minor "brush" with the law must be what gave me a lifelong attitude.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on December 06, 2010, 05:51 PM:
 
I my self have seen the in side of a drunk tank.It's not much to write home about.I have a shit load of storys I could share but I want.In the middle 70's the cops would cut us kids a shit load of breaks.A cop had me and the guy I used to run with plus afew chicks pulled over one night he must of been able to smell a hint of brew on us.He just told us to get those chicks home and he had better not see us out on the street again after that.I grew up in a town of 45,000,I guess that was about 1973.
LB,it does suck when mom and dad has to come get you.My dad only came and got me one time,and dad was not so bad he would just give us that dad look along with the dad talk.And it did work on us boys.Now mom I tell you what I would rather be shot in the ass with rock salt than get it from mom.
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 06, 2010, 06:17 PM:
 
"Tom has a right to dislike me for my "cop" attitude, if that's how I come off. I was just a little surprised by the change in his attitude, that's all. I thought maybe I did something to offend him."

Wait just one minute, first of all I don't dislike you because of your cop attitude. I dislike the cop attitude that infringes on my rights in the name of protecting others or for my own well being. I have enough personal experience in that crap to know the score.

Think back to when you first came here, am I really any different?

I'm the same today as I was yesterday and I'll be the same tomorrow. I'm too old and seen too much to change my mind now. You either like me or you don't and I'm okay either way.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 06, 2010, 07:25 PM:
 
Nobody is asking you to change my friend.

quote:

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Wait just one minute, first of all I don't dislike you because of your cop attitude. I dislike the cop attitude that infringes on my rights in the name of protecting others or for my own well being. I have enough personal experience in that crap to know the score.

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quote:

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"She may have even have mentioned to the police that he owned guns, or may have had guns in his possession. This would have given the local popo a reason to look further, other than a standard variety well being check."

---

Now recall Leonard asked a question, and I was tying to answer his question as best as I could based on limited information. This is the context of my answer. There may have been reasonable suspicion for the police to ask for consent to search Aitken's vehicle. In New Jersey, our state constitution does not allow us to ask for consent unless we have reasonable suspicion. This is another reason why I wanted the police report and trial briefs, in order to find out why the police did what they did. But with Evan Nappen as Aitken's attorney, being that Nappen did not attack the search itself, I am fairly confident that the search was legal. Nappen instead chose to use the "moving into state" clause to get his client off. This was a weak defense IMHO, but it may be all Nappen had to work with. Attorneys get paid to get their clients off the hook, and they will use whatever they can in court. Thus, I think the search was legitimate, in my opinion.

No worries Tom.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2010, 09:04 AM:
 
Tom, you have not "said" anything that I myself could not have said. I'm just as much suspicious of cop behavior as yourself.

All I asked was that we cut him a wee bit of slack, because in parsing his words, it becomes more about him than about a strange court case in New Jersey.

You guys need a beer summit in the rose garden with Berry and Goofy.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 07, 2010, 10:25 AM:
 
ElBee, I gave up beer for Lent and this whiskey is killing me...

No I realy need to go kill something, been stuck out of the woods for 3 weeks now with deer season going on and me regretting not leasing a place. It seems it's cheaper to pay the lease than to go Christmas shopping with my wife.

I even think she's ready to pitch in to get me out of the house.

I understand you asked him the question and he obliged with his legal opinion. Like I said, i have a hard time keeping my trap shut and will work on it. Besides I thought he liked this type of discussion.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2010, 12:23 PM:
 
You're right about that, he likes cop talk. My guess is, like almost every LEO I ever knew, almost all their friends are fellow cops after you throw in a few obligatory family members. I forget, did I make him a moderator of the Coptalk Forum, or not? Or, do you think he would be too rigid, no hijacking a thread, no off topic discusions, stand inspection, stuff like that? His qualifications look good and he probably knows the subject matter fairly well? But, can he emote, ya know; show, rather than hide his feelings and emotions.

It would be cool to learn a little of the lingo, 10-4, stuff like that.

Good hunting. LB

PS this is hilarious! Ran a spellcheck and it kicked up Coptalk........substituted Copulate Bwahahaha!

[ December 07, 2010, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 07, 2010, 02:24 PM:
 
You guys are hilarious.
 

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Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on December 07, 2010, 03:46 PM:
 
I'd rather fornicate than fight...or talk, for that matter.
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 07, 2010, 06:12 PM:
 
FWIW, I've known a lot of law dogs in my life, from local popo to many, many sheriff's and their deupties, fire marshals, state bureau boys, FBI, U.S. Marshals, state troopers and game wardens. Even worked with more than a couple back when I wanted to do that kinda work, and for the most part, having just wrapped up the latest interaction between my son and the criminal justice system, I have come to a conclusion. I always got along with ol' school cops, regardless of whose patch they wore on their shoulder. Those guys were people managers and they knew how to get along with folks. Today's snot nosed little raggamuffins are nothing more than an extension of the ridiculous game we call our court systems and the scum of the earth we call lawyers that live there. To them, it's all a game of numbers. Arrest 'em all and run them thru the courtroom as quickly as you can with absolutely no regard whatsoever for allowing the facts to interfere with the outcome. While waiting for my son's hearings to come around, I've spent some time sitting and listening and often heard what, in my mind, was well beyond a shadow of a doubt, yet none of that seemed to matter to the judge. This past week, our local county commission signed off on a booking fee to be paid at the time of arrest. No mention of what happens to that $45 if it turns out you weren't guilty. Seems awfully tempting to make a lot of arrests and cut ppl loose with an apology and an empty wallet.

Anyway, I've seen prosecutors pull some devious chit on my son and, in one particularly egregious case, did so knowing that my son's medical condition made him extremely vulnerable to what the guy was doing to him in court. It worked. This last time, we had him evaluated by a counselor who then told the judge - again - about his medical condition and the judge actually took that into consideration and was much more lenient with him, choosing to help him to get his life straightened out by giving him the option to do the right thing and laying out the consequecnes of what would happen if he didn't rather than simply punishing him again.

Today's new cops are simply following the lead of stinking criminal lawyers and prosecutors which then just exacerbates the problems with our criminal justice system and puts it all onto the street. For example - my boy was caught drinking - minor in consumption, 18 but not 21. He, and about 50 other kids, have been arrested for the same charge in the past year yet not a single one of them has ever been asked about where they got the alcohol. Instead, charge 'em, run 'em through the court, convict 'em and fine 'em. Repeat. The city and county attorneys never even suggested that either the muni cops or the SO investigate how and where the kids were getting booze. I raised hell. Had my son's attorney raise the question to the judge. He put it to the prosecutor. Awkward silence. Apparently, no one else had thought of that. My son offered to testify against the buyer if it meant he could keep his d/l. They considered that to be a novel idea. Case closed. Geesh, sometimes you have to hit them upside the head with a 2X4 with the words "common sense" printed on the front.

Nope, it isn't so much the cops as it is the lawyers those cops are playing to. The cops on the road just do what the laws and lawyers tell them to do. Ol' school LEO's were hired for their common sense. New guys never had it, never will.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 07, 2010, 07:27 PM:
 

quote:

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My son offered to testify against the buyer if it meant he could keep his d/l. They considered that to be a novel idea.

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Could'nt man up to his own actions of wrong doings and then squeal's like a pig...

I guess someones got to take the rap..

[ December 07, 2010, 07:28 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2010, 10:30 PM:
 
Well, that's one way to look at it, Tim. And, a valid observation it is. But, inferring that the boy is a snitch, just to get out of a jamb doesn't consider the problem this town appears to have with somebody selling booze to minors.

Now, you know the ramifications of selling drinks to an obvious drunk, for an innkeeper? They can be held responsible, if he drives away and kills a carload of people on the way home.

It would be, (seems to me) a far worse offense to provide liquor to minors, and doing it intentionally. I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it, in this litigious age we have grown accustomed to. Goodbye entire net worth!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 07, 2010, 10:53 PM:
 
Did'nt you ever drink when in highschool??? Not sure about Lance's case but most times its a older brother or a friend thats old enough to buy or even someones Dad's fridge...
I got caught a few times myself, when asked where I got it I would say I stole it from dads fridge without permission or found it inside a road culvert. The copper was pretty good about it and just take the booze away from us and send us home for the nite..
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 07, 2010, 10:57 PM:
 
I do agree for the most part... but there are some good cops out there still.

"99% of all lawyers give the other 1% a bad name!" Author unknown

I also got the same treatment during my ordeal with lawyers and the court system. Traumatic Injury Syndrome(or something like that)they called it... not the case, sure I got hit hard in my accident but that wasn't why I was mad at my EX!!!!

Anyone selling alcohol to minors probably has very few assets to lose anyway! The court system is all about the money!
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2010, 11:24 PM:
 
Interesting question, Tim. One of my closest friends, his dad owned Cooper's Markets. We would go down there in the middle of the night, Rich had keys, go inside, lock the door behind us and shop. For teenagers, it was actually quite a thrill to conduct ourselves exactly like an adult. Bring the goods up to the register, Rich rang it up and we put the money in the till, bagged it and rolled. I don't know anybody that had a better deal than that. And, we had a way better set up than virtually anybody in school. I'm telling ya, it was pretty kool.

Good hunting. LB

Niko, are you sure about that 1%? Seems a rather high estimate?
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 08, 2010, 04:36 AM:
 
I think I finally figured you out, Tim. You have the mind of a fourteen year old. Ass clown.

Let me share a little something with you and the rest of your ten o'clock crowd... After you go to sleep, there's a really shitty world out there that just keeps keeping on. Meth, crack, shrooms, prostitution, even the low level stuff like skittlin' with ephedrine. Kids today are still kids, and they're acting much the same way that you and I did at that age, except that in many cases, the temptations are worse, and more potent. Combine that with a communications network second to none with the advent of cellular phones and texting, and it's increasingly difficult for a parent to stay ahead of the curve. I would like, more than anything, to have to deal only with what I had to deal with as a kid, especially for my son, but that isn't so and it wasn't until I owned up to that fact and opened my eyes to what was going on around me that I really came to terms with the depth of the problem. There isn't enough room on this or any other forum to fully explain the complexity of the social problems facing our youth today, especially to someone as flat out ignorant and stupid as you, and what would be the use, Tim. You can't fix stupid.

The drug problem in this country is rampant. Add in alcohol and it's far worse than ppl like you realize. Ask yourself - if it was as easy as him simply owning up to his actions, don't you think things would be fixed? Dumbass. My brother made a living of investigating drugs, their users, and the networks by which they get trafficked in this country. To this day, he has contracts out on his life for the arrests he made. In the case of my son and his friends, they, like us, got alcohol and drank. I did it, too, and more than once, I got escorted home by the local Barnie and turned over to my dad. That isn't how it works today. They - the cops, judges and prosecutors - have no sense of humor about this. You'd think they all bathed in holy water during high school. He drank one drink, laid down to go to sleep on his buddy's sofa and was wakened to being cuffed at 1 in the morning. Dozens of kids have had the same thing happen to them and no one has investigated where they are getting the booze, so the problem kept on keeping on. IMO, irresponsible by the cops, and negligent on the part of the courts. He told me after I bonded him out of jail that he was "tired of this crap. If I can keep my driver's license, I'll tell them where I got it." Well, ass clown, this is the real world. Not the 14 year old world where you live where you and your ilk apparently believe that "they'll never take me alive" is the rule of the day. People get into trouble and they'll say and do most anything to save their own ass. I guess you'd be the martyr and the local hero while other responsible adults just laugh at you. Dumbass. You are a minority - thank God. If you knew what my boy and my family have been through because of short-sighted cocksuckers like you, you'd think differently.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 08, 2010, 07:04 AM:
 
Yep things are different today. Back in the old days the parents would teach there kids from what is right and what is wrong and what can happen if we did anything in the wrong.
We had some of the drugs around, most came from the bigger towns close by and we delt with this problem ourselves. We had enough sense to stay away from the stuff and anyone that messed with the shit. We also had our own little gangs and we all agreed on one thing no drugs anyone caught doing so would get a hell of a beating from our little gangs...

quote:

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The drug problem in this country is rampant. Add in alcohol and it's far worse than ppl like you realize. Ask yourself - if it was as easy as him simply owning up to his actions, don't you think things would be fixed?

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Its a start and by turning in the other guy did'nt help or solve the problem one bit, just added to the problem.. Youre son just learned a good lesson just turn someone else in for his mistakes and get off the hook..
Should of had his license pulled, a little walking around for a few month's may have gotten his attension and wise him up abit..
You said youre son is 18 right! Time for him to learn to man up and be a man....
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 08, 2010, 08:58 AM:
 
I see where my feeble attempt to deflect most of the verbal rock throwing worked perfectly. For a minute there, I was afraid this was going to turn into a real snotty exchange, what a relief!

Good hunting. ElBee
 

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 08, 2010, 03:55 PM:
 
"Yep things are different today. Back in the old days the parents would teach there kids from what is right and what is wrong and what can happen if we did anything in the wrong."

Ya know, Tim, my wife and I had 17 good years of teaching our son right from wrong. To this day, I firmly believe that he has all of that in his head and in his heart, but things changed - a lot - three years ago when he sustained his head injury. We saw our so - a B honor role student with near perfect attendance - become a violent, depressed and withdrawn shadow of who he used to be. Unless you have seen firsthand what a traumatic brain injury can do to a person, you don't know a damned thing about what you're talking about. The only solice I've found in the past three years is the friendship of a number of people whose spouses are active duty military and who have themselves sustained the same type of injury from IED's in Iraq. In the past month, we have been advised that his injury and the problems it causes are permanent. Since you apparantly don't have much a of a brain, it stands to reason that you can't understand the way your brain controls your emotions, your thoughts, and how you react and respond to the world around you. You just open your flapping mouth hole and run away with your "I'm a self-appointed expert on everything as long as I can parrot the words of other people all over the internet - just ask me".

We have seen our son do things that I would never have imagined him being capable of doing.
Had you told me even four years ago that our lives would be turned upside down by an injury of this sort, that our bank accounts would be drained, and that any semblance of hopes and dreams we had for our son to go to college and enjoy a career of his choosing would be taken away from us, I'd have laughed at you.

If you had any sense at all, you might have considered that lecturing him and reiterating to him what is right and what is wrong maybe just doesn't work. Again, if it is that easy, do you think for a minute that his mother or I wouldn't have done that? Then again, do you actually think?

"Its a start and by turning in the other guy did'nt help or solve the problem one bit, just added to the problem."

How did it add to the problem, dumbass? You're damned straight the other guy got turned in. This guy has been the enabler for at least 2 dozen kids whose parents now face the fines and extra costs of having their children dragged through the system. We turned him in, but only because the law won't allow me to just kill him outright. D was taught right and wrong, and on his own, he came to the decision - the right decision - to do what is right and provide testimony against the guy so that he can enjoy his fair share of the punishments, too. In exchange for that, D gets to keep his driver's license. Other than that, the fine he'll pay is higher, he's on probation for a year and a host of other court ordered mandates that he is required to fulfill. Walking around without a car for three months would have been the a easy way out, but then again, that's okay for a loser like you who would rather watch people commit crimes than step up and do the right thing because you don't wanna be a snitch. Juvenile.

My son is now coming to terms with what the counselor who ecently evaluated him told him - he has a permanent injury to his brain. Depression, anxiety, and difficulty coping with stress will be a permanent fixture in his life from here forward. It's unlikely he'll be able to return to school and go to college. Most people with his condition find that very, very difficult. He won't be able to manage a job that involves a lot of stress, as in "most jobs" because people with his condition struggle with that. His life has been taken from him and you can't think of anything more constructive than " man up"? On October 28, a young man playing football here in KS died of a bleed in his brain from playing football. D saw that and realized that he could have just as easily died. It shook him up. "Man up!" Again, ass clown.

The only good thing that has happened for us is two wars, if you can call them that, where literally tens of thousands of U.S. servicement are coming home with post-concussive syndrome, and the fact that the Army just opened the first hospital of its kind at Ft. Riley 30 miles away where they treat nothing but traumatic brain injuries.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 08, 2010, 04:48 PM:
 
I'd appreciate it if you fellas could refrain on the name calling, a little bit. I just hung up the phone with someone that I called a "dick" a week ago, or so. I sorta had to apologize, but as names go, that particular one is on the mild side. I didn't realize Victor could be such a dick about being called a dick. Go figure.

Anyway, if you boys can control it, excuse me. I just would like it to eventually blow over where you don't have to jump each other's ass every time they post.....like Dan and all those other guys.

It sounds like you have your hands full, Lance. Good luck. There is hope. I assume you have retained council.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 08, 2010, 08:34 PM:
 
Sorry Leonard for useing all the cus words, I'll try to cut back a little..

I was just helping Lance with his venting..

We are here to help...
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 08, 2010, 09:22 PM:
 
Today was a reminder of my little brothers death 10 years ago..Still looking up at you and miss you. Good brother and best friend.
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 09, 2010, 10:27 AM:
 
I am sorry for your loss Tim.
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 24, 2010, 03:11 PM:
 
Got an interesting email today, had this in it...

Sentence commuted!

I think this is good news!
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 24, 2010, 07:09 PM:
 
Hallelujah.

There is hope after all.

Although this guy violated the letter of the law, the sentencing was ridiculous.

Edit: Just curious Nikon...who sent you the email? NASA?

[ December 24, 2010, 07:18 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
 

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Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on December 24, 2010, 07:33 PM:
 
Nope!

I'm almost ashamed to say it was from a fella that still posts at PM. Imagine that... something creditable from the worst predator site on the web. I'm amazed!!!
 

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Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on December 24, 2010, 08:33 PM:
 
Someone I know of? Email if you are so inclined...
 

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Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on December 25, 2010, 06:08 AM:
 
He still has a felony conviction.
 

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