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Topic: hey 49, can you explain this to me?
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted December 02, 2010 04:16 PM
This is the first I have heard of this case Leonard.
Not having the benefit of reading the trial briefs and/or police report, I can only say what I think happened.
This quote from the article tells me a lot:
quote:
His mother, concerned for his safety, called the police, and when the police located him, they searched his car and found two locked and unloaded handguns in the trunk.
It sounds like the arrested subject was a BOLO (be on the lookout) as called in to the police by his mother. Perhaps he was emotional, and/or suicidal, and the mother was concerned for his well being. She may have even have mentioned to the police that he owned guns, or may have had guns in his possession. This would have given the local popo a reason to look further, other than a standard variety well being check. But honestly, we get these types of calls often, and it usually involves a suicidal subject when they are driving, as opposed to maybe an 82 year old with alzheimers. It would thus be unusual for the police to check the arrested subject's trunk as a result of a well being check if there were no further information or suspicion to to do so, as I think there was in this case.
Anyhoo, it sounds like the police had enough suspicion to request a consent to search, which may have been granted by the driver. This would lead to the legal discovery of the weapons. I can't imagine the police discovered the guns in any manner against the fourth amendment, especially since the case held in court, and most especially with Evan Nappen as his attorney.
As per NJ law, in order to have guns in your vehicle you must be en route to or from a range, with no deviations in travel. Or you must have a hunting license on you and it must be during hunting season. In this case, it was neither. This is why Nappen was going for the "in the process of moving defense" which sounds like utter bullshit to me. Apparently the jury didn't by it either. If he had the guns packed away in a moving truck, and had just entered the state en route to his parents' house he would have been good to go legally. Also, hunters and out of state people traveling through NJ can legally transport firearms if they are cased and unloaded, with ammunition in a seperate area of the vehicle. I used to stop people like this all the time on the Turnpike and it was never a problem if the people were clean and just traveling through. The law is designed to keep the gang banger from driving around with a gun on a Friday night, or whatever. Unfortunately, making the laws restrictive for the criminals makes the laws more restrictive for the law abiding citizen. The criminals will do what they want regardless.
I don't mean to give a long dissertation, but hopefully this will answer your question.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Leonard
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posted December 02, 2010 04:45 PM
Yeah, your ideas help, but I was about to charge NJ with being a Gestapo police state! The state law you referred to seems unduly restrictive just to protect citizens from gang bangers apparently they had to surrender their constitutional rights? I don't like it. I know it's not your fault, and you shouldn't have to defend chickenshit laws, but WOW, it seems excessive to throw the guy in prison for 8 years!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted December 02, 2010 04:49 PM
Yeah I am not sure on the sentencing. Maybe there is more to the story?
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DEL GUE
SECOND PLACE: Mad Bomber lookalike contest
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posted December 02, 2010 05:47 PM
I didn't read the article, but the main difference in my state is that if it was a BOLO ref suicide threats and he had mentioned shooting himself or guns were found missing, we would have done what is called a Baker Act, which is an involuntary commitment for mental evaluation, instead of arresting him. His guns would have been put into property and evidence for safekeeping. And I'm thinking they asked if they could look in his car and he said yes. A lot of people go to jail for having contraband which would have never been found had they simply said 'no' when officers asked if they could look in the car, but they are afraid they will look guilty if they say no, so they say yes and then are proven guilty instead by the discovery of the contraband. But often they are acting real nervous while you are searching and are watching you real close to see where you are looking and if you found anything. Sometimes it's almost funny.
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"I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart." - Bear Claw
Posts: 588 | From: FL | Registered: Jul 2007
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted December 02, 2010 06:54 PM
Interesting point Del. I guess it could have been handled that way, depending on the situation, and the DA's office.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 03, 2010 05:21 AM
Great thing about our judicial system, if he wasn't suicidal before, the 8 years jail time might do it.
Of course the cops got their man and took 2 weapons of mass destruction off the streets...
I'm glad I'm an Okie, last night I had a machine gune and fully loaded mag on the seat of my truck along with my pistol. Trampling individual rights in the name of protecting the public is BS.
Sorry but you started it ElBee.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Alaskan Yoter
Knows what it's all about
Member # 169
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posted December 03, 2010 05:44 AM
Its not just the judicial system.....
How about this? Ya can always cut and tuck your shit and dominate a womens sport all in the name of fairness(Not to the other women golfers of course)
http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/news?slug=ap-lpga-transgender
[ December 03, 2010, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Alaskan Yoter ]
Posts: 235 | From: Wasilla, Alaska | Registered: Mar 2003
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted December 03, 2010 05:50 AM
Holy shit what next!
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted December 03, 2010 05:57 AM
Hey Leonard I just saw my new status tag glad to say Im back in Az. and this thread is one reason I love it here my gun goes where I go!
lost my password as I had to change computers but I recovered it from deep within the bowels of the email monster.
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
Posts: 4188 | From: The forest ! north of the dez. | Registered: Jul 2006
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knockemdown
Our staff photo editing Guru, par excellence
Member # 3588
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posted December 03, 2010 06:49 AM
I avoid driving through NJ like I would the plague. And I travel with my sticks legit (even as per NJ law), no matter what state I'm driving through...
Just that I don't wanna deal with any nonsense, heaven forbid I happen to sail through a speed trap a little pedal heavy. Heck, even when going to hunt in PA, I'll take the long way round up & over the Tappan Zee and back down, just to avoid "Joisey". And I don't miss the GW Bridge none, at all!
No offense, 49...
[ December 03, 2010, 06:53 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posts: 2202 | From: behind fascist lines | Registered: Mar 2010
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted December 03, 2010 06:55 AM
quote:
I'm glad I'm an Okie, last night I had a machine gune and fully loaded mag on the seat of my truck along with my pistol
I agree completely. Of course mine is a bolt gun, but hey, thats just semantics.
On another note, what is it with 'higher ups' in law enforcement and their opposition to open carry?
http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...1_CUTLIN475757
I've been to Az several times; afraid I missed the shotgun weildin' bikers.
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 03, 2010 09:52 AM
Geordie, your link didn't go anywhere, said the page doesn't exist?
Okay, about this dickless male. Why the half measures? I say it's time to quit the gender discrimination all together. No more female and male Olympics, just humans. Let the women compete fairly with the weaker sex.
Just an idea. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Paul Melching
Radical Operator Forum "You won't get past the front gate"
Member # 885
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posted December 03, 2010 10:19 AM
Now if sex was an olympic sport !
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Those who value security over liberty soon will have neither !
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted December 03, 2010 10:35 AM
Geordie, what I heard was most of us mere civilians couldn't retain our pistols if someone wanted them. At least concealed we might have a chance.
Utter BS but what do you expect them to say?
Personally, there's a time when showing a weapon could change someones mind but most of the time it's best left as a surprise.
I was raised to be self reliant and the older I get, the better I understand why.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted December 03, 2010 12:21 PM
Gentlemen,
I didn't start this one, but I will defend my position just the same.
Yep, Nappen's legal argument was utter bullshit. That's why it didn't hold water in court. Nappen didn't attack the search, I presume, because he knew it was a legal one. Any attorney of Nappen's caliber would have been all over the stop, or the search, if either one weren't legitimate.
I don't know the whole story here, but there aren't many people who go to prison for eight years for having two unloaded guns in the trunk. Not even gang bangers and not even in NJ. In my opinion there is more to this case than we are being told, and something tells me our "innocent victim" isn't so innocent. But that's just my opinion, so take it or leave it for what it's worth.
Now I will tell you I am an NRA lifetime member. I am as pro gun rights as they come. The only reasons I live in this craphole of a state is because I was born here, my family is here, and I am employed here.
Was this case a travesty of justice? I don't know with the current information we have. But if our hero's attorney is arguing exemption due to moving into the state with firearms, I don't buy it. Not in this case I don't. That's what I am saying...the attorney's argument was bullshit. I have heard enough BS arguments made by attorneys in my 22 years of court testimony, so I know BS when I see it.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted December 03, 2010 12:27 PM
Cross J,
Many law enforcement higher ups, or "brass" are anti gun because of politics, plain and simple. Many of these people wouldn't be in the positions they are if it weren't for their politics.
Fred,
I can't say I blame you for not wanting to drive through NJ. I would like to be able to tell you if you follow the rules, you will be okay, but I won't. Not all police officers are current and up to date on firearms laws, as they should be.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted December 03, 2010 01:43 PM
I apologize, 49, if me asking has compelled you to defend the case. I couldn't think of a better source, at the moment and I don't so much want to dump on NJ unnecessarily, as scratch my head and seek, (nay, demand) an explanation.
I know that you have nothing else to go on, but telling us, "we don't know the whole story" is sorta weak.
I have spent very little time in a court room, but I know beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the public and the jurors are kept in the dark about a lot of very material facts.
Case in point. My wife was on a murder case. Scant evidence, but what they had pointed to the defendant stabbing his wife with a screwdriver....because they found one laying in the street, two blocks away. My wife was not going to convict this man and in this particular murder, with malice case, a jury hung 10-2 for conviction was an automatic 2nd degree conviction and the poor schmuck got 14 years.
Afterwards. DA told them that the guy had a severe head injury from a motorcycle accident and he had been committed to a mental institution for the past 14 years. Didn't remember a thing about what happened, or if he did it. Therefore, he was released
for time served, but none of these facts were made known to the jury. (before the verdict) Maybe, if they were worried that he would sue the state on a not guilty verdict, they didn't want the jury to sympathize with the defendant.
Lots of important stuff is hidden from juries. That seems to be my belief.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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DEL GUE
SECOND PLACE: Mad Bomber lookalike contest
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posted December 03, 2010 02:52 PM
I usually don't go to states with highly restrictive firearms laws. I usually go to Montana, Wyoming, Utah, Arizona, New Mexico..those kinds of places, mainly cuz I like the Rockies and the National Parks. I only go to California if I am going to Tijuana for a few days, which doesn't happen very often.
When 49 says we probably don't know the whole story, he is probably right. Unless you get a copy of the original report and copies of the depo's and the transcripts from the trial, you're only guesstimating what happened. And just because that is what Fox or some other media outlet said happened, that doesn't mean that is either what really happened or that you got the whole story. I've dealt with the press enough, personally and professionally, to know that the stories they print are often convoluted and often inaccurate, and are sometimes accompanied by an agenda of some sort.
This is not to say that gun owners don't sometimes get screwed, because they do. I'm a Life Member of the N.R.A. and have been since I was a teenager, and my whole family is about as pro-gun as you can get, so yeah, while I'm a cop, I'm still pro-gun. I've had a Florida concealed carry permit since they became readily available in the 80's, and still have one, even though I'm the popo.
We don't live in a perfect world, and our legal system is far from perfect. Innocent people sometimes go to jail and/or prison, and guilty people sometimes go free. That's why I think the proper term for it is the 'legal' system, not necessarily the 'justice' system, because it isn't always just. But you can't expect perfection, because it is operated by people, and people aren't perfect. The rules don't help, they hurt, because a lot of important information never makes it to the juries because it is excluded for one reason or another. The bottom line is, it's a mess.
[ December 03, 2010, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: DEL GUE ]
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"I never could find no tracks on a woman's heart." - Bear Claw
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George Ackley
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posted December 03, 2010 03:11 PM
I hunt NJ on average 3 days week during deer season [Fort Dix] witch starts September 1 till well past new year.
the most confusing place in the world NJ is,
I also driving rt 80 though the gap for more then 25 years to get to my hunting grounds in northeast PA and been stopped more times then I like to say, and with truck loads of guns and never had a bad experience.
but when it comes to hunting NJ what a mess . you need a license for everything not another state like it.
every town on the way up to camp has its own cops and then you have the state police that run everywhere.
i guess its one of them places you have to grow to love much like Ca.
ps
you shore can harvest lots of deer
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted December 03, 2010 03:19 PM
...or my favorite: "if the glove don't fit, you must acquit."
What kind of idiot assistant DA would ask a defendant to put on gloves entered in evidence, while wearing latex rubber gloves? Chris Darden did. Or, a detective used the N word so he cannot be believed as to finding a matching glove behind OJ's house.
Yeah, the legal system is not always justice, but paybacks are hell, right, Orenthal?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted December 03, 2010 08:14 PM
Leonard, what I meant by not knowing the whole story is "us" not knowing the whole story, including myself. Like Del says, you don't always get the full story, or the correct story, from the media. Anyhoo, I will try to find the trial briefs on line, since we are discussing this mess. No need to apologize though Leonard. You asked an intelligent question, and I tried to give you the most professional answer I could, given the limited amount of information we had.
Del, how did I not make you as a cop before this thread? I got suspicious when you talked about the Baker Act. I guess Uncle Leonard is going to have to get busy on that coptalk forum after all. Lol.
George I went to the academy when we had it down at Fort Dix. We also do some rifle training down there. The ticks are bad. And that place is hot as hell in summer and as cold as a witch's tit in winter.
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Leonard
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posted December 03, 2010 08:53 PM
My one and only vision of New Jersey was the Christmas I spent at Fort Dix before being transported to the port of Brooklyn. Destination: Germany. Shit, that was fifty years ago! Man, time flies! But, it was damned cold, I remember that much.
Good hunting. LB
edit: you weren't the only one that missed the clues
[ December 03, 2010, 08:54 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted December 03, 2010 09:11 PM
I couldn't find the trial briefs or police report on line. Apparently to get those pieces of information there is a fee, which 49 isn't about to pay.
I did find this, which gives a little more information:
http://reason.com/archives/2010/11/15/brian-aitkens-mistake/
It seems Aitken's mother did call the police because she was concerned for his safety following an argument at the residence. Though there is confusion as to where he was going, he most definately wasn't coming form Colorado directly to his new apartment in Hoboken. I still don't buy his story either. It appears he was in violation of the letter of the law as the law stands.
That having been said, Aitken's main problem was getting into an argument, causing a loved one to fear for his safety, and having guns in his car while doing so. Not exactly responsible gun ownership. The article also says the judge did not think highly of Aitken going on Fox News in an interview with Judge Napolitano. This may have hurt him come sentencing time.
I do not agree with the law as it stands. Though unfortunately Aitken used poor judgement, and did so in a state that is not forgiving when guns are involved. If he were smart he would have gone into the pre trial intervention program. But of course, then the trial attorneys couldn't make big head lines and a lot of money.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted December 03, 2010 09:17 PM
quote:
edit: you weren't the only one that missed the clues
I think Del hides it pretty good.
Jeremiah Johnson is an excellent movie.
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posted December 02, 2010 01:20 PM
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