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Author
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Topic: Coyote / Calf ???
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted November 23, 2010 01:42 PM
Was just watching 'Primal something' on one of the outdoor channels. The hero was trying to take a coyote with a crossbow, e-caller, decoys, and scent elimanator. Much product placement but not much success with the crossbow or the back up rifle.
What caught my attention was when one of the heros explained that a cow will stand close to a newborn calf to protect it from the coyote so the coyote will circle the cow & calf. The cow will keep turning to face the coyote as it continues to circle and eventually step on the calf, killing it accidently. The coyote then waits for the cow to move away from the dead calf and then moves in to eat. The hero said it happens all of the time to newborns.
I'm not saying that this couldn't happen, but does this guy have a clue as to what he's talking about???? I know a little bit about coyotes & a lot less about cows but this seems a wee bit over the top to me.
Anybody have any experience or insight into this???
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 8231 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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skoal
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1492
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posted November 23, 2010 03:18 PM
Come on cattle folks I'm dying to hear someone that knows cattle say sumthin! I know they are not real bright, but.......
Posts: 251 | From: desert s.w. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted November 23, 2010 03:24 PM
He's right, but he saw that clip the same place I did. Or from a hundred other sources.
It was a moose with a calf and a pack of wolves. The wolves circled the cow until they separated the cow from the calf, this particular cow did step on the calf, but didn't kill it. Its a natural trick all predators use.
The world is full of phonies, and a lot of them are tied to the predator hunting community. The disgusting bastards give us all a bad name.
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
Member # 884
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posted November 23, 2010 03:27 PM
Possible? Yes. Has it happened before? Would bet on it. Is that how it always goes down? No.
The amount of aggression shown by the cow is based on the temperment of the cow itself, and probably the aggression of the coyote/coyotes.
Here, they hang out around calving pastures for the merconium(yellow calf shit) and after birth.
Here is a pic I took of a coyote hanging around a newborn. The coyote was laying down the first two times I drove by. It finally stood up on my third pass when I stopped to take this pic. The red cow in the background was still stringing afterbirth. She showed no concern for the coyote, and he appeared to be patiently waiting.
[ November 23, 2010, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: CrossJ ]
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted November 23, 2010 03:51 PM
With some modified behavior, coyotes will learn to rapidly circle the cow, faster and faster, until the cow, overcome with diziness.....just tips over.
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted November 23, 2010 04:00 PM
Yeah, I saw that one time, I thought they were just dancing and the cow got tired. lol
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skoal
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1492
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posted November 23, 2010 04:27 PM
Hey Vic , brings new perspective to spinners!
Posts: 251 | From: desert s.w. | Registered: Jul 2007
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SD Howler
taught Huber everything he knows, but not everything HE knows!
Member # 3669
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posted November 23, 2010 06:52 PM
Yes this was one of the tricks of the trade for coyotes that I experienced, years ago when I was worked as a trapper for the SD GF&P Animal Damage Control Program with some of the calf and lamb kills. I remember one situation where a coyote was feeding on a freshly killed calf in an area that we were hunting with the airplane. The coyote was spotted and as the plane was making a pass for the kill, the coyote kept feeding on the calf as the plane approached. The coyote didn’t flush and was killed right over the calf. The coyote was attempting to get a belly full of meat that would be a regurgitated breakfast for her pups. I later opened up the coyotes stomach and she had consumed a volleyball sized mass of meat.
Coyotes hunt in pairs, we had another situation where we were aerial hunting and the pilot noticed the cows were looking off a different and they noticed a running deer that was being pursued by a coyote. The deer crossed a small creek and turned to look back at the coyote, only to find out that a second coyote was waiting for her once she had crossed the creek. Now the two coyotes put on the chase and one coyote grabbed the doe’s front leg and the other coyote had the tail. Fortunately, the airplane made a pass on the coyotes and killed both of them. The deer had bedded down and we later flushed it to check its condition. As the doe ran off, I noticed a broken front leg about 8 inches above the hoof and the once white-tailed doe now tailless, was shaking the exposed red vertebrae of her tail.
I’m sure that the other trappers could tell similar stories about coyote complaints that they worked with.
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Steve
Predator Calling
rattler51@pie.midco.net
Posts: 51 | From: SD | Registered: Sep 2010
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted November 24, 2010 11:33 AM
I just had a chance to speak with a rancher that I know & he solemly assured me that yes, a coyote will do exactly what was described, causing loses up to 20%.
Good to know that there are still things to learn. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted November 25, 2010 08:08 AM
Koko, what whoever described is not that uncommon, you see it when you drop in undetected from the plane.
Pair of coyotes working a cow calf pair, one in front one in back. Calf tucked in behind mom's butt. Lots of times in snow you can see how these things play out etc also from the ground.
Their mere presence in a cow herd during calving can lead to losses and in other herds their presence does not. When you get a nasty SOB that just plain likes killin and eating them and you hunt for extended periods of time to get it shut down you look at everyone in a calving pasture a little different.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
Posts: 669 | From: Pierre SD | Registered: Mar 2007
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted November 25, 2010 08:09 AM
We tag our calves as they hit the ground, or as soon as we can find them after they hit the ground, and we do this because it's very easy to match the cows tag number with the new borns new tag number and this helps keep the pairs together when it comes time to seperate the herd to different pastures in the spring. BUT when we find a new born, and attempt to tag it, often times the cow will be some what aggressive even towards us, and will literally stand over, walk over, do circles around and over the calf just to keep us at bay.
It would be a safe assumption that the cows that do thier best to keep us at bay would do the very same with coyotes. SO, yes there's a chance that the cow could step on the calf while protecting it.
Some cows will stand back and give ya an ear full of snot and noise, but won't charge, others won't hardly let ya get near the calf. This makes tagging new borns exciting to say the least.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
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jimanaz
2nd Place RICHARD FARNSWORTH LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3689
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posted November 25, 2010 08:24 AM
Has nothing to do with cows, but interesting, none the less. If you look just above center and to the left, you'll see a coyote languishing in the middle of this herd of antelope. All parties seemed totally relaxed and not the least bit concerned. Seeing what happened when a doe was fawning would be the really interesting part of this equation. One buck, ~25 does, and not a single fawn in the bunch. Taken in July.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted November 25, 2010 08:31 AM
I think it depends on your location. This has been discussed to death. My great grandfather came to Missouri and put together quite a spread. Between him and his brother, it is pretty big for this part of the country and with the grass that grows here, the numbers per acre are much higher than most areas as far as being able to run cattle.
Although my great grandfather died before I was born, I discussed this a lot with my grandfather, great uncle, dad and several others. Im not sure we ever lost a calf to coyotes. They are always in the pastures during calving time to get the calf shit, it contains cholostrum (sp?), which they love for whatever reason. We have had numerous calves be still born and have the ass eat out of them, some think is a coyote kill, but its just a coyote being the opportunist it is.
I have seen some individual cows with my own eyes that are more aggressive towards coyotes than others and will chase them off, but the coyotes are normally pretty quick to surrender.
I know other parts of the country have predation problems, but its not here. I hear this bullshit locally all the time, different variations, and dont believe any of it. I dont know that it is the fact that we have enough natural food for the coyote so they dont have to mess with cattle or what, but its nonexistent. If there is a predation problem, its almost always chickens, ducks, geese and shit like that, not calves. And a big part of the time, if you talk around, somebody is braggin of killin the big bad coyote, which is reality was the male and now the female has to hunt the easy game and get back to the den.
Again, Im not arguing this doesnt happen. But I guarantee there are many more coyotes around here in the calving pastures licking up calf shit than there are killing calves. And ranchers are not good sources of information. They lose a calf, they are pissed because they just lost money on that cow for the year. If they can blame it on something, they will. Just human nature.
Take it for what its worth. This info and a couple bucks nowdays might get you a cup of coffee.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted November 25, 2010 08:36 AM
I forgot to add, our problem is with dogs. Especially if you have a pasture near a town or subdivision. If people leave their dogs out, they will pack up and run cattle literally to death or through fences or whatever.
Ive shot way more dogs than I have coyotes for causing problems, when I still lived on one of the farms.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted November 25, 2010 04:25 PM
Andy I totally agree. I used to work a ranch that tagged calves as they hit the ground (and band the bull calves) yes it can get interesting. Ever seen a cow on a flat bed truck?
Anyway, we'd drive through and the neighbors dogs gave more trouble than any coyote and this place had the coyotes.
Ya I can see a cow stepping on a calf but I'd doubt that a coyote uses this technique knowing what will happen. A cow will just try and face the coyote, dog or cowboy and they try to get around behind. Sooner or later I guess it's bound to happen.
Andy I guess we missed you at the airport.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted November 25, 2010 05:25 PM
Tom, Ive seen cows about every way you can see a cow. LOL
One of the most interesting and crazy things is the way we doctored a few. If we found a sick one and had no horse, dad would have me get in the back of the truck with a rope and tie it to the 5th wheel ball and he would run the bitch down and I would rope her. Besides some serious rodeos from this, it was damn hard on the truck when a 900lb cow would hit the end of the rope with the truck going the other way. LOL The rodeo would come when he would keep enough tension on her she couldnt get up and I had to scramble to get a shot in her. Didnt have to do this many times, but enough for me. LOL
Dad used to rent small pastures that were near towns. There were, in those days, lots of 100 acre tracts or so that had good grass and were surrounded by houses that could be rented cheap. These are the places we had hard times with dogs.
One other place was our original home place, if you will. LB has seen it. From Route 66, all the way to Fort Leonard Wood. Back in the day, there were not but a handful of houses, except in the pasture that ran next to town. My family had more land, but the Gubberment took it away in the 40s when Ft Wood was established. Including the house and barn where my grandpa was born. But, it still left a big chunk along the Roubidoux River from the Fort boundtry to Waynesville city limits. Anyway, I dont know how many dogs I have shot out of that field. And not just for passing through. It wasnt a job I liked at all, but when a pack of town dogs are runnin your cattle to death, what the hell are you supposed to do?
Worst one was a German Shepard. Not the dog, per say, the circumstance. My great grandpa gave a couple acres and a big spring that layed by itself on the other side of the Roubidoux to the town of Waynesville for a 99 year lease for $1. Its now the Roy Laughlin Memorial Park. Anyway, the Dept of Conservation stocks it with trout. Sometimes, people wade over to fish from our side, which is no big deal, normally. One day after school, I was at my grandpas in town. He told me to take his truck and a gun, there was a dog runnin cattle. I did and I shot the damn dog and one of my buddies from school came up over the bank. I will never forget the look on his face or the feeling I got when I saw him. He was in the wrong, trespass and his dog runnin cattle. If he had only asked and kept the dog under control.... Anyway, that one really sucked, but what was I supposed to do?
Dogs are way worse than coyotes on cattle, at least around here.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Randy Roede
"It's Roede, like in Yotie
Member # 1273
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posted November 25, 2010 06:25 PM
You see the same scenario of events with deer and fawns and antelope with kids. Coyotes diving in and out while trying to avoid a good stompin. Difference being a doe deer or antelope is a little more graceful around it's young.
We were hunting with the plane and found a doe antelope facing off with a coyote and a kid behind her. The coyote bolted from the plane and the doe stomped it from head to toe, we pulled up laughing our butts off, came around and it happened again, beat the crap out of that coyote when he would turn to flee from the plane, third time he got shot but what a bad way to go!!
Just had a calf kill on the 11th of this month, newborn had three coyotes on it when the cowboys checked it with it's ass all tore up. Dies the next morning along with two adult males and a YOY female coyote in and very near the pasture.Super agressive and very territorial.
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The only person dumber than the village idiot is the person who argues with him!
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Possumal
HONORARY CALLS FORUM MODERATOR edit: AND TOKEN LIBERAL
Member # 823
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posted November 25, 2010 07:05 PM
Andy hit it square on the nail when he said he was sure it varied in different parts of the country. Hell, it even varies from one side of the road to the other. There is a road here in Jessamine County, Ky. where the farmers who live on the east side for about 5 miles tell me that to their knowledge, coyotes have not killed any calves on their farms. Across the road, there are 3 good sized farm, totaling about 750 acres, where all 3 farmers have experienced extensive loss of calves to coyotes. I have actually killed several big coyotes while in the act of trying to take a large calf down. It appears that the coyotes are gradually changing what they do as the food supply furnished by small game diminishes. I know they are bigger around here than they were ten to fifteen years ago, and I have to believe they are growing to match the task at hand. Interesting to me.
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Al Prather
Foxpro Field Staff
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted November 25, 2010 10:00 PM
Andy we "roped" a wild cow once with a chain out of the pickup once. Didn't have any horses, they stomped down too much grass so said my uncle. Besides he had me and cuzz to do all the running.
While tagging calves, we'd rope the calf on foot if we missed it the first few days. Momma would normaly get pissy but if the calf ever bawled, game on. We got to throwing them on the truck and had 2 mommas board ship with us. One of the wagons was a suburban, a buddy pulled one inside and momma kinda sprang the door and run him out the other side. Lot's of interesting times.
I walked across this same ranch a few weeks ago after killing a coyote out of this pasture full of cows. Dang things all had their calves hid out and I got between them. Had half the herd running for them and me right in the middle, sure brought back some memories.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted November 26, 2010 06:07 AM
We never did the whole workin calves as they hit the ground. My grandpa and dad would wait til they were pretty well all calved then we would run them all in the lot, seperate them, throw and work the calves and then, pair em back up.
See, they like as many steps as possible. LMAO
It would been much easier, especially as many head as we ran on places scattered everywhere, to just load a horse, put tags, shots, knife, ect... in the saddlebags and ride the cows workin calves as they hit the ground. But that would have been too easy. We needed a 100 or so pissed off mommas at once in a small lot to fuck with.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted November 26, 2010 06:10 AM
Oh, and Tom, if you aint never tried to stand in the back of a pickup, bouncin over rough terrain, duckin and dodgin to keep up with an old cow, swingin a rope tied to a ball, you aint lived. Not to mention, after you catch the bitch, you gotta dodge that rope cause it will cut your damn legs off. No, we didnt have but one flatbed, so it had sides and it would pin you against it. LOL Thats why I said it was rough on the truck with the rope pullin down on the sides. LOL
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted November 26, 2010 07:02 AM
Predation and methods of predation are generally learned behaviors. You can have generations of coyotes that never bother cattle, then one coyote or family group of coyotes figures out a trick (like killing calves) and teach following generations. All of the sudden you have calf killers. Same goes with tricks like running deer out on ice in some areas, they are not born knowing how to do that. The coyote is adept at learning new behaviors and also very good at teaching those behaviors to thier offsping.
Edited to say for Koko, If a rancher tells you he is losing 20% of his calf crop to coyotes, you need to tell him to disconnect the satelite TV and get his ass off of the couch.
[ November 26, 2010, 07:05 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted November 26, 2010 10:32 AM
That's a concept with which I am not familiar. A lazy rancher. But, what do I know?
Missouri must be some place? I can't imagine anywhere else where they bounce around in the back of a flatbed truck, roping cows, especially with the other end tied to a trailer hitch! I'm thinking Darwin. (just kidding) I don't know a damned thing about cattle, I've been charged a few times, scared the crap out of me! (I swear, mister rancher, it was self defense)
But, getting back to the gutpile question. Maybe it is because there are so damned many gutpiles in a given area? A coyote can only eat so much.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted November 26, 2010 04:06 PM
Ranchers are just like everybody else LB, some are considerably more energetic that others!
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
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nd coyote killer
HUNTMASTER PRO STAFF
Member # 40
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posted November 26, 2010 07:04 PM
It definetly happens.
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"Sure are cocky for a starving pilgrim" - Bear Claw
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