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Topic: Leonard...
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 13, 2010 03:04 AM
The other thread was the wrong forum for this in my opinion but I will give you my take on the video here.
Regarding the "Don't Talk to Police Video," you know that attorney is a pretty clever guy. He is a good speaker who definately puts on a good show.
His opinions are a bit clouded and paranoid though. Some of the examples he gives are extreme and off the wall.
The example I like the most is the attorney who gets convicted of assault for grabbing the other attorney by the throat in the hallway outside the court room. The accused attorney first stated it was a joke, then later recanted his statement and said it never happened. I have heard the excuse "it was a joke" many times in my career, as I am sure Rich Cronk could attest to as well. I heard it again just yesterday as a matter of fact. I think the bottom line is the attorney was guilty and subsequently convicted.
The two examples he gives of men who were freed from jail due to DNA evidence. The first guy was mentally ill anyway, and gave a confession. If someone is in the state of mind that they will confess to a crime they didn't commit then they have other issues and aren't in the right state of mind to "take the fifth" anyway. DNA conviction reversals are a seperate issue. This guy (the attorney) is obviously clever in clouding the issue. When you can't beat 'em with brawn you baffle 'em with bullshit.
It's all good stuff. I guess if someone really did commit a crime or have something to hide then they might be better off taking the fifth in many respects.
It was an entertaining video though, and I am not advocating this action one way or the other. By all means you guys should do what you feel is best for your own interests.
Post edited because it was toned down.
[ March 13, 2010, 06:10 AM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
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Okanagan
Budding Spin Doctor
Member # 870
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posted March 13, 2010 07:29 AM
4949, did you watch the second half of the same class session, where the detective takes over on the same subject? I'd be curious as to your comments on that. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE&feature=related
Meanwhile, I'll go with the defense lawyer/professor and the Supreme Court Justices he quoted.
[ March 13, 2010, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Okanagan ]
Posts: 269 | From: 49th Parrallel | Registered: Jun 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 13, 2010 08:43 AM
quote:
It's all good stuff. I guess if someone really did commit a crime or have something to hide then they might be better off taking the fifth in many respects.
See, here's what bothers me. I believe every word, about the guy that was in "Outer Banks" but some dippy chick claims that he was in town that night. His claim becomes distrusted after policeman testimony makes it two to one against him and he is convicted on the basis of an inaccurate eye witness testimony. Hey, she could have been wrong on the day, hell, it was last year?
On the other hand, our buddy Scott Peterson produced a parking receipt that placed him at the scene of the crime after Lacey and Connor broke loose of her concrete anchors. I'm sure he did it because he couldn't be sure that somebody wouldn't remember that he was fishing 90 miles away, on Christmas eve. Brilliant plan, perfect execution, w/catch 22.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted March 13, 2010 09:10 AM
Good points Leonard.
And I think your points are examples to the effect that solid evidence from a crime scene holds more weight in a court of law than does witness testimony.
If I remember correctly, Peterson was found with some of the materials used to make the anchors with his boat? As well as him growing a beard (disguise) and heading to the border loaded with Viagra. Actions speak louder than words sometimes.
Thankfully his plan didn't work.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted March 13, 2010 09:23 AM
I watched both videos. I will stick to my guns.
Dont consent to search. EVER.
Dont talk to police. EVER.
It cannont help you but it can hurt you.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 13, 2010 09:49 AM
Okanagan,
I just watched part II.
My impression is that the detective is a skilled investigator turned attorney/future defense attorney. He is up there promoting his new career.
Interesting, as he is still a police officer but refers to us as "them" a few times in his talk.
The one thing I did like is the fact that all his references involved subjects who are guilty of a crime. He never said nor inferred that the innocent should not speak with police as the professor did.
Andy, I said it before...do what you need to protect yourself. All I know is that if I were wrongly accused of a crime I would be proclaiming my innocence with a few "MF's" in there to boot.
As an aside, most people consent to search because if they are in fact hiding something they figure we will find it any way with a K-9 or search warrant. If they have nothing to hide they consent, well, because they have nothing to hide. Isee it every day.
But let's not forget that we have a public to protect. To remove too many tools the police can utilize in their job will unfortunately put too many child molesters and rapists back out on the streets.
There is a delicate balance between ensuring peoples' rights and having the tools necessary to convict a criminal.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted March 13, 2010 10:07 AM
You see it everyday? 49, are you one of those fishing expedition cops that ask every car they pull over if they can search?
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 13, 2010 10:27 AM
Hasn't happened to me because I never allow a search, and it's on principle, not because I have something that could incriminate me.
But, there are these videos we see where the cop asks, very innocently, is there anything in the car that shouldn't be there? No? Can I take a look, then?
So, he finds a 9MM under the seat and a bag of weed in the glove box.
The idiot that gave permission for a search CLAIMS that that stuff wasn't his! Who's going to believe that? But, it is true that stuff in your vehicle might have been put there by a passenger and you didn't know it.
I was hunting with Scott Huber in South Dakota last year. After I left, he found my binoculars under the front seat. He mailed them to me.
Okay, but what if I had some weed in there? What if he was stopped? What if he had nothing to hide and allowed a search? Would it do any good to claim that asshole Leonard left that in my truck?
I didn't think so. Therefore, it has nothing to do with having nothing to hide and everything to do with knowing your rights and not allowing a warrantless search.
By the way, I generally don't give permission for Border Patrol to search my vehicle, but I'm not exactly sure how far I can go with the refusal? Anybody know? I did open the back of my camper once when it appeared that it was going to delay my trip. But, they coerced me with the delay and I caved.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted March 13, 2010 10:42 AM
I always search my car after we take somebody in to make sure they didnt stuff something in the seat. We always search them before putting them in the car too, but it doesnt hurt to make sure. But you could always miss something.
Im with you LB. Loco left his howler in my truck and I didnt find it til later and had to mail it back.
As for BP, I dont know how far you can push that. Ive never had but one ask and it was pretty easy to see that I had no Messicans hiding anywhere. I did have a deputy follow me from Mc Neil to the checkpoint all the way up by Sunizona on 191, with all my family in the truck. After being cleared by BP, they told me to pull over, the deputy wanted to talk to me. Chickenshit. He said my truck screamed stolen. After checkin my license, insurance and registration on the truck, I guess he was convinced it was my truck. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
So, just so you guys know, if you drive a F250 4 Door Diesel, with your wife and 2 kids in the truck with you, it screams stolen to Cochise County Deputies. Fucksticks didnt have anything to do and didnt even have the nuts to pull me over 60 miles or so earlier. Had to wait for backup at the checkpoint.
[ March 13, 2010, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Andy L ]
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Andy
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 13, 2010 10:56 AM
Yeah, and for 60 miles, you didn't go a mile over the speed limit, did you? Watching your instruments instead of the road, a swerve here and there, always checking your mirrors, etc. I think they love fucking with ya.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted March 13, 2010 01:43 PM
quote:
You see it everyday? 49, are you one of those fishing expedition cops that ask every car they pull over if they can search?
Noooo....I thought I had explained myself on the other thread. Maybe it was on a different forum? Anyway I don't feel like going back to check and since the weather here stinks and I am stuck inside I will elaborate.
Yes Andy, I have searched a few cars in my career. If I thought I had something as per the indicators I received (RAS)from the stop I would ask for consent, lacking any PC. Here in NJ we have always had to get a signed consent during the course of my career. We even have a specific form for it, so there are no incidences like what happened to Leonard back in October of 1980, I think. But to answer your question....no. I didn't ask to search every car I stopped. I only went further with those stops that gave me a reason to because it was my job.
The reason I see it "every day," is because I don't make road stops any more. I thought I mentioned on the other thread that my present duties involve me reviewing and overseeing stops with consent searches that other officers conduct here. I review the tapes from the dash cameras. My job is to review the stops to ensure the officers are not violating anyone's civil rights, making sure the guys follow proper procedure, making sure their safety practices are up to standard, and making sure the officers treat the public with dignity and respect. This is how I see it every day Andy. To be honest, it's a lousy job and I would much rather go back to shift work and running a squad, which I enjoyed. But I was recruited for this job, and here I will stay until I can't stand it any more or until a more prominent position offers itself.
I can tell you that the guys here are very good. I run into a few minor problems but nothing major so far.
Now where is Tom? I am used to you two guys double teaming me on these threads. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Leonard, I guess it is possible that someone could leave a bag of "weed" in your car, but believe me it doesn't happen very often. Those people don't forget their narcotics. They might forget their kids in the bath tub, but they don't forget their narcotics. Anyhoo, you strike me as the conservative type and I don't think you hang around with pot heads. That's just my impression, so I think your scenerio is even farther removed than you make it out to be.
When I was on the road I stopped cars on highways and in remote areas by myself all the time. Does it make those guys fucksticks because they waited until they got to a safer area? Maybe and maybe not. Perhaps they didn't know who was in your truck? You too Andy...maybe they didn't know. That's all I am saying.
I get it...you guys don't like "us" cops. But we are a necessary "evil" you know? The only other alternative would be to fire all the police in the country and see what happens.
Edit for typo.
[ March 13, 2010, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted March 13, 2010 01:59 PM
Come on Andy, use your head.
Think about all of the right reasons why you were checked at the BP check point, and not before.
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 13, 2010 03:10 PM
Yeah, I'm a conservative type and believe in law and order. However, I have only seen mary jane once and wasn't positive that's what it was? And, guess what? It was left in my vehicle after giving a couple chicks a long ride down the mountain. Long story, some other time, but I believe it was a gift, in appreciation, in leu of money? No way it was a forgotten item. And, guess what? It happened October 1980, I shit you not! What I can't recall is if it was the day before, or the day after?
I could get along with law enforcement just fine, if they would lose the attitude. I very much resent being treated like I am a possible law breaker, and they can't help themselves. I know that.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted March 13, 2010 03:14 PM
Dont bet on LB not hangin with Pot Heads. He is from the Land of Fruits and Nuts where it is legal now.... ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
49, Im just yankin yer chain. Its rainin, Im bored and its fun. Nothin more or less....
Joe, I guess Im not sure what you mean? Family of four, two days after Christmas, nearly new 50k truck, MO plates, Southern AZ, I mean I dont think we looked like car theives. I guess maybe they thought drug runners, but never asked to search, although my camper shell wasnt tinted and there were at least a half dozen guns in plain sight back there. There were two deputies in the ride following us. I dont know exactly how far, it was from McNael, cant spell it right because of blocks on here, to the Kansas Settlement cutoff, where the checkpoint is. Just seemed kind of chickenshit to me. I guess I should add, when I turned north on 191, I was leaving Tim Behles house and they were across the intersection from me, so it wasnt like they couldnt see in the truck from the start.
Just kind of stupid in my opinion. And like LB said, it does kind of put you on high alert and apt to make a mistake. I guess I never gave them any probable cause to stop me, must have driven well, and they thought the BP place was their chance to nab us.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 13, 2010 03:26 PM
Where is Tom? Here I is!
Double teaming? Dude you need to wake up and see just why it is on every forum you visit, you have these issues. You definately have an "us vs. them" attitude. I figured out I can't change anything so why bother? You sure ain't gonna change my mind on anything.
Now this is not to say I won't debate any calling issue or maybe even a law issue but I don't hide around and wait for my chance to dogpile anyone. I speak my mind, right or wrong. Just ask anyone.
Moving right along,
I had an instructor tell us one time that if we are asked for permission to search, it's better to let them "inventory" your vehicle instead. That is if you don't want to just say no.
It seems our instructor was at the border in an airplane (don't know any details) and was asked for consent to search. They had no worries and said yes go ahead. That gave them promission to dismantle the airplane and of course they found nothing but the instructor and pilot had to wait till a certified mechanic could come and put it all back together. It wasn't cheap either but he won't let anyone "search" nothing if he has a choice.
Might be something to remember for the BP if they push the issue LB.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 13, 2010 03:30 PM
And while I'm at it, our hometown heros have been pulling cars over right and left lately. We found out they have a grant for overtime money and to keep putting in overtime hours, they must write so many tickets per shift. Seat belt tickets are keeping our finest in overtime. Makes me sick and probably gives me an "us vs. them" attitude.
This came from a senior officer who is just as sick of the BS as I am. They need to go back to rolling drunks for extra change.
I edited it because I wanted to.
[ March 13, 2010, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 13, 2010 04:18 PM
Please. Let's not run him off, folks. I appreciate the point of view. Remember, they ain't like us. He knows there is hostility, on some levels. I think he's mellow about it. Maybe it's part of the territory and part of the.....well, you know?
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 13, 2010 04:30 PM
Not my intent to run him off, heck I almost like the guy. He does offer a different perspective but I sure didn't think I was tagging out with Andy.
Maybe he can teach us to be better civilians and we can make him a better law man?
Just foolin.
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted March 13, 2010 05:25 PM
quote:
Please. Let's not run him off, folks
I don't think we'll run him off. I didn't even tell my 'Johnny Law' story.....didn't want him to think he was being dogpiled.
Tom, That explains all the law on the road last night. I drove from Antlers to home, and every town I went through had at least one traffic stop taking place.
Maintain
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A friend will help you move. A good friend will help you move a body.
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted March 13, 2010 05:43 PM
Keep up the good front Tom. We dont want him to know what we talk about in the back room... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Andy
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 13, 2010 05:49 PM
Grant money and serious declines in revenue from sales tax., etc. All those fines go into the general fund and are dispersed accordingly. SO's, PD's and HP's are now key revenue generators!
4949 seems to me to be a good guy. I wish that every agency in the country went to the trouble to assure quality and compliance as is his apparently does. Sadly, this just isn't true. Couple over zealous officers with a justice syustem and court/ judge who values efficiancy and revenue over empathy and objectivity and you have a very volatile situation developing.
How much of this devolving attitude could we attribute to the growing angst nationwide about government's increased intrusions into our lives? Are we just taking our frustrations out on the police? After all, isn't everyone talking about what we regard to be "chickenshit, bullshit stops" where the officer finds probable cause to stop you then exploits the opportunity to find something else to hang on you?
Arrests made after investigating? From my experience, around here, is if they investigate and show up on your door with a warrant, you're toast and you deserve it. Happenstance encounters where the guys around here have to call it at the time? Iffy at best.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted March 13, 2010 06:09 PM
Tom,
I was just razzing you (and Andy) a bit.
Despite our disagreements I actually think you are a good sort. I respect a man who stands by his beliefs, even though his beliefs may differ from my own.
Us vs. Them attitude? I don't know, maybe when I was younger I had that attitude. I don't think I have it now, though I can see why you might think that. This goes back to you not knowing me personally again, remember?
I can tell you this much...people in my community who know me and know what I do for a living don't think that about me, for whatever it's worth to some of you guys. We have a lot of LEO's living in our neighborhood here. Our kids all play sports together, and the non LEO's who know my LEO friends consider me to be a lot different than they are. I am told I am not "high" on being a cop, like they say my friends are. I don't know really, but it's just what I am told. I like to think that I act like myself, and have nothing to prove to anyone else.
I always treated people like human beings at work. When people came to our station looking for accident reports or whatever, I went out of my way to help them. I charmed the old ladies, and made small talk with the guys if they were decent folk. The young cops at work were surprised at how cordial I gould be to the public considering how tough I was on them. But you know, men don't respect a pushover as a leader.
There was a line though, which was not to be crossed. I treated everyone with respect until they disrespected me or my men. When that happened all bets were off, and the nasty 49 came out.
I digress but I just think it's funny that you guys all think one thing about me, and the people who know me in person think the opposite. But like I said, I have nothing to prove...not even to you guys.
Leonard, I guess you got me with your example. So it happened to you once. It probably hasn't happened to many others but okay. These are the hazards of giving people of unknown character rides in your vehicle. But I was correct in my assessment of you. 21 years in LE and I have gotten to be a fair judge of character.
I still don't know what you guys want of law enforcement, really. Last time we argued about this very subject I told you all that there is bound to be conflict when you have twenty something year old symbols of authority out there stopping, detaining, and arresting people. Conflict is bound to happen and people are going to be offended.
It is the nature of the beast.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 13, 2010 06:30 PM
Oh yeah....
CDog I appreciate the kind words.
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 13, 2010 07:37 PM
Nick, I know.
And don't think you'll get a search warrant for the back room either, the judge is a good friend of mine...
and don't be so sure about Elbee, you know he's from Kalifornia and even the little ol ladies smoke dope out there.
For medicinal purposes ya know.
beacuse I wanted to again.
[ March 13, 2010, 07:39 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 13, 2010 08:14 PM
If you want to hear the story of the two chicks walking in the woods with suitcases, I guess I can remember most of it? LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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