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Author
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Topic: Greensburg Gun Confiscation
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted May 29, 2008 07:14 PM
About a month ago, I received an e-mail from a longtime friend here in Kansas containing a lengthy report about guns being confiscated in Greensburg last May after their town was decimated by a tornado. At first, I opted to just make a not of what I'd read, but to be vigilant in listening or looking for any further mention of it. This link is the piece that was forwarded to me and was written by an Executive member of the Kansas Rifle Hunters Association. I was provided a copy of their actual newsletter this past week containing this exact same article.
http://cutim.com/greensburg-gun-confiscations/776
The gentleman that showed it to me and, in doing so, validated the article's legitimacy, was told by a regional big wheel with NRA whom he was guiding in a fishing tournament that NRA was investigating these claims and that, so far, everything appeared to be true as reported.
New Orleans was NOT the end of this.
Be alert!
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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skoal
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1492
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posted May 30, 2008 01:28 PM
If you could go to an (atf trailer) to get your guns back,where did you go for your jewelry and cameras ect. sounds like a plain old breaking and entering by theives of the official variety to me.
Posts: 251 | From: desert s.w. | Registered: Jul 2007
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted May 30, 2008 08:29 PM
This sounds like a case of blatent illegal search and seizure, violation of civil rights, and probable cause to believe that the police have abused their authority once again. As a retired cop myself, it pains me to the bone. I personally know an ex officer who lost his job and spent time in a federal pen for a civil rights violation. That was back in the 1970's however, back when the Policemen were expected to set good examples for the general public.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Steve C
Knows what it's all about
Member # 510
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posted May 30, 2008 09:19 PM
I can't believe this isn't front page news. Wait... I'm sorry that space is taken by fashion faux pas and Celebrity scandals.
TOTAL B S. I would like to see some heads roll.
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CSVCA http://www.csvca.com
Posts: 82 | From: El Monte, CA | Registered: Jan 2005
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted June 01, 2008 08:01 AM
Lance, why don't you report back on this when you get some first-hand info.
We went through a tornado here - literally in my back yard - a few years ago and the actions of the authorities couldn't have been any better than they were.
I find it surprising that Kansas local authorities would break down so completely.
The locals here were in charge, lead by the volunteer FD, if you can believe that. Outsiders were blocked from the little town flattened in the area, locals had free access, etc...
I even received a call from the FD less than hour after the T passed checking on my health and well being since I was almost directly in the path. Additionally, they were calling to warn of a second cell that I was not aware of due to lack of power.
The Fed.'s showed up and did their part. Nary a local standing around whining about where the president was - and I have little doubt that was the way things went in Ks., unless we're talkin a suburb of Kansas City....
There was major media coverage of the event, including pic's the next morning from inside the local town the storm is named after. I can search the 'net by storm name and find a few pictures of isolated farm houses but nothing from inside the town. If you didn't have a personal tie there or were not a part of the escorted legit media that got one pass through then you were kept out. Period.
The two lane state road that passes through that little town sees a fair amount of traffic but was diverted for a considerable amount of time to allow residents to literally get their shit picked up. After that you could freely travel through on the main drag and could stop to volunteer to help but you had to pass a sniff test by the locals before you were granted access to what amounted to their personal possessions plastered up against the few trees that remained.
I find it hard to believe that Ks., literally the backbone of America, handled it any differently. If they did then there needs to be hell raised to no end over the situation.
[ June 01, 2008, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: JoeF ]
Posts: 658 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted June 01, 2008 09:00 AM
This has not much to do with natural disaster response, but I just remembered it. Or, some of it?
I have a niece that was hooked up to a jerk, some time ago. There was a lot of domestic problems. Somehow, a shotgun of some type was entrusted to my Dad for safekeeping? More squabbles, police were called and charges and counter-charges resulting in police knocking on my father's door. They wanted a certain shotgun?
My dad told them to fuk off, but then they started talking about arresting him. Eventually, my mother was also badgering him and he caved in. I don't think anybody ever saw that shotgun again?
Yeah, I believe, and suspect that Greensburg can happen anywhere.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 01, 2008 11:54 AM
Joe,
When I first rec'd this piece, I was suspicious. Certain things simply didn't seem to make sense. And they still don't. I don't wanna be a black-helicopter-crowd kinda person, so I still have some questions. Having seen these types of things from both sides, there are certain things about what happened in Gburg that the layperson may not fully understand, and worse yet, would question... loudly.
For instance, the remarks that power had been shut off to the town before the storm hit and gas was shut down afterwards. Sounds to me like a misperception of facts. Likely, the power was shut off by the tornado as it approached the town, but not intentionally. Otherwise, how would they operate their storm sirens? I've been the guy that ordered sirens activated on a number of occasions and a Fire Officer during that time and we never would have thought of killing power to town for any reason.
Once the storm had passed, there was undoubtedly a lot of exposed gas connections spewing natural gas into the air. Even if those service lines had been shut down in the moments prior to impact, those lines normally take hours to purge. Therefore, the gas comment makes sense; the electrical shut down does not (at least, not as told by the reporting party).
The townsfolk were upset that everyone was ordered out of town. Again, I suspect this to be a misperception of operations. This storm hit just before 10 p.m.. I haven't spoken directly to folks that were there, but do know relatives of theirs that told me they were told that it was total chaos. When they came from their shelters, the town was gone. Unless you've been through that situation, you cannot fully appreciate what it's like. For as far as you can see, debris. No landmarks. No street lights. No street signs. Hell, no streets. Just splintered wood, insulation, personal belongings and everyone's "stuff" everywhere.
Law enforcement and Rescue have certain things they need to do, the biggest chore being protecting human life, then conserving property. Part of protecting lives is to immediately initiate rescue operations and attempt to account for every soul in town. Imagine trying to do that. In the dark, it's raining, no lights and hundreds of people around you are screaming and crying.
Ideally, you set up a check point through which every walking person is passed and their names recorded. And ideally, everyone complies with your first request to head that way. But, these people are shell shocked and disoriented and only want to look for one another. They don't give a rat's ass what YOU want to do. They have pressing concerns that, to them, are more important. Chaos.
Therefore, the best way to do things is to start herding people out of town. Get all their names. Get the names of people that were with them, and their neighbors. (Look at your own division or neighborhood. Can you say, with certainty, how many people live in each house? Do you know when they're home and when they're not, at any given moment? Whose looking out for you if something like this happened in your town?) When a name appears on one list and not on the other, you have to account for them. It can be a daunting task and there is no one way that is agreeable to everyone. You do the best you can.
When seeinspots' house got hit the next night, and Matt and I went up there the next morning, I didn't have a problem with the way the Sheriff managed things. Access roads had been blocked and were manned by State Troopers. During the night, residents had been herded to a nearby state park shelter house where names were collected and names of missing were identified. Phones were used to account for those that were out of town. During all this, Fire Department personnel made three trips through the damage zone, searching every house and building X3 for survivors or bodies. Utility companies were let in to shut down electrical service due to downed lines. Gas companies came in and shut down/ purged gas service lines. Only when all this was done did the sheriff let even the residents in. Matt and I had to have Kent tell the check point guards who we were. We had no problems. It was a mess.
Not to argue my own post, but there is (admittedly) a whole 'nother side to this story and I'm truly interested in it. I have a number of local buddies that served in G-burg for a week or two at a time as either guards or fire rescue because all their apparatus, stations, and cars had been destroyed. None of them have said a thing about any of this, so I'm still suspicious. Not so much that the story is a lie. Rather, it seems more like a misinterpretation.
And it isn't that Kansas would have anyone that wouldn't know how to manage this type of event. Every department in the state - regardless of size, volunteer or fulltime - knows how to handle this. We have far too many tornadoes in Kansas not to - we had 84 confirmed tornadoes in the state just last weekend according to the news. Therefore, I suspect something isn't being accurately included.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted June 01, 2008 02:52 PM
I'm with you, Lance.
The power claim was the first thing that caught my eye. Then the lack of names because people feared retribution?
I'm thinking we're hearing a tainted 1/2 of the story, after it has passed through dozens of ears.
I said first hand knowledge in my original post. What I really meant was a story passed on to you by someone who was actually there. Then we'll be getting to what should be believed and acted upon.
I know first hand what a tornado does to a town. It would not surprise me at all if there were a single collection point for firearms found among the debris. That some effort was made to identify proper owners does not surprise or distress me, either.
In this day and age, that someone would turn this in to a black helicopter landing zone wouldn't surprise me either.
Posts: 658 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted June 01, 2008 02:54 PM
Also, this happened last year, right?
If so, I'd think that would have heard about this from your buddies long ago.
Posts: 658 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 01, 2008 05:01 PM
You'd have thought, but I never heard a thing about it until this article was released.
Yeah, a year and three weeks ago - give or take.
And yes, like everything else, I'm sure there were firearms scattered all about as well, along with many other valuables. I would think it a prudent act to announce all firearms be brought to a centralized locale so owners could describe their guns to claim them. Otherwise, you could just come upon one, and tell the nearest badge that it is yours. You send it away and later, maybe months later, someone starts asking if anyone saw such-and-such gun that was theirs but which they haven't seen. Something like that, I would hope, would be secured inside the perimeter until ownership is proven either through the gun dealers, FFL purchase forms, or other docs found off site. Once you can prove it is yours by some means, you can take it away.
Now, after a time, looters are going to be gone and wannabe thieves are going to go by the wayside. The real owners will be insistent and persistent, and by then, they could release the gun to them if they still stand by the same make, model and description to match the firearm in question. I know my guns well enough that if I had to describe them today, or six months from now, I could still describe the scratches, scope, and design pattern well enough to show that is it really mine. Just my thoughts.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted June 01, 2008 07:32 PM
This reminds me - I need to refresh and re-e'mail my spread sheet of gun details to my off site storage locations for reasons just as this.
Posts: 658 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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BigO
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1062
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posted June 09, 2008 11:52 AM
I was in Greensburg 2 days after the tornado went through. I was only there for a 12 hour period (because of flooding that was occuring in my own county).
I was stationed at a rual entrance into the town. We were told to stop and identify people comming into town. Citizens were being allowed in to go through their things and clean up their property.
We as Law Enforcement from surrounding agencies we were there as security to keep out looters. Yes there were a couple bad apples in the barrel. A reserve officer from a county department and a few military gaurdsmen were arrested for looting, but thats a small number compared to the 500-600 that helped out in the few weeks after the tornado.
I did hear stories when I first arrived about guns that were found. Several of the guns were of the full auto variety. These were not taken out of a house they were found in a yard.
I saw several trailers and tents while I was there. Red-Cross, Salvation Army, an immpressive communications trailer, KDOT, Law Enforcement, Local Government, etc, etc. I was told what to do in case we found a body, or a body part. I even saw the KBI's set up that contained a freezer for storing the dead. I was never given an order on what to do if I found a gun, and I certainly never saw an ATF trailer that housed all the guns from Greensburg. We as Law Enforcement were not given any orders to kick in doors of the remaining 6 livable houses in town and take the guns.
I have several friends with families that live or lived in Greensburg. I have heard nothing but good things from these people. The only complaint I have heard has been about FEMA. Apparently there was a local farmer that was digging up a pasture, he was going to allow the town to put all the wood in the hole and he was going to burn it. Fema came in and said "NO!!" It must all be hauled away according to government standards. Which took about ten times longer that if they would have done it the other way.
I can't say that the accusations in the article are false. I can only say that I nor any of the Law Enforcement officer that I know where involved in any of the events that are accused. I do however find the accusations a little hard to believe.
I think the author may have had a biased source, or someone who really just wanted to be in some type of media. I have noticed that several times the people who want to talk the most are not always the most credible sources.
Posts: 64 | From: reno co. ks. | Registered: Dec 2006
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 09, 2008 05:40 PM
Thanks, BigO. I wish I'd thought of you earlier as someone who was likely there.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted June 10, 2008 01:13 PM
Thanks, BigO. That is about what I expected.
Posts: 658 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted June 12, 2008 08:40 PM
How ironic that I would have first hand experience in commenting on this subject tonight, and so soon.
Earlier today, in Chapman, Kansas, where an EF3 tornado destroyed nearly 70% of the town last night causing in excess of $70 million damage, authorities, the upper most being my brother, ordered the town locked down and that no one be allowed into or out of the town. Last night, as soon as was feasible, they tried to get all the citizens out and trucked to shelters because of gas leaks, and downed power lines.
Why?
Simply, earlier today, they brought in cadaver dogs for search and rescue operations and the presence of people only causes problems with their ability to identify possible victims.
A curfew has been placed into effect from 9p to 6a each day, and only local residents are allowed into town until Saturday. To the authorities' credit, residents have been advised that should they find a firearm, the weapon is to be left where found and law enforcement contacted to take possession of the gun until the owner can be found.
Pretty much sounds like a lot of the same stuff that was done in Greensburg, except with an explanation.
If anyone else is available, bring your gloves and water jug. We have a lot of clean up to do. The swath through town is a mile long and six blocks wide.
[ June 13, 2008, 06:35 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted July 06, 2008 09:34 AM
Lance, I hope you guys have gotten those people back on their feet and are on the road to recovery.
A similar topic has come up other places recently, here is a bit of what I've learned. Please note that maybe things aren't as FUBAR'ed as some would like us to think.
Also, just a little first-hand experience - I live smack in the middle of a long stretch of declared federal disaster area. No real complaints from anyone about the authorities, though there is a lot of irritation centered around restricted access to the directly effected areas. People have a hard time fessing up to the dangers of still energized power lines and submerged propane tanks.
The restrictions are simple:
a.) you have to live there or are accompanied by someone who does. No tourists or looters allowed.
b.) The hours are limited to 6:00AM thru 9:00PM.
c.) You have to sign in and out so the authorities know whether they need to come rescue your ass or not.
Sounds reasonable to me.
Read section 706 in the document linked below. From what I have been told this was amended in 2006 in response to the Katrina abuses, other states and municipalities have enacted similar laws.
http://www.iaem.com/committees/governmentaffairs/documents/stafford020807.pdf
Posts: 658 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 06, 2008 12:50 PM
Hey Joe, actually, the state and federal authorities have asked us nicely to take a few days off and just slow down. Our recovery effort was too fast for them to keep up. The damage area is, for the most part, cleaned up with exception of a number of structures still waiting to be razed. There are a number of backhoes and bulldozers on site and people have their names on lists. The one main problem they're dealing with is that the entire damage zone is in the flood plain and, under federal law, if the house took >50% damage, they cannot rebuild with a basement. If <50%, they can rebuild and the home is still considered grandfathered under old laws. People are really agitated because the federal government and FEMA have come in and told them they can't have a basement when the last thing they would want, given the circumstances, is a house without a basement now. From what I've found out, they won't even let them build a below-ground storm shelter that would be used for nothing but during a tornado.
As far as guns go, the CERT - Certified Emergency Response Technician - people established a large, centrally located tent and trailer where all valuables found were to be turned in. All volunteers, at sign in, were told to leave any found firearms in place and to have their CERT team leader call for a law enforcement officer to come, secure the weapon and transport it to the L&F tent. I have heard of NO complaints in Chapman about missing valuables or guns, due in large part to the high level of security from the get go. I know they arrested three looters one day early on, but those guys were rolling up downed power lines that the power people had cut and left lying on the right of way. Copper and metals are at a premium, ya know, and there was a LOT of it laying around for the taking.
I do want to offer props to the CERT program. This is an offshoot of 9-11 and I first heard about it from Bryan Ward who took the training in his home area there in Utah. It's just regular people who take the time to get the training on how to manage a community disaster in their own neighborhood by knowing what order to prioritize things. Their training teaches them how to manage resources like people, tools and the like that can be found in neighborhood garages so you can help yourselves until the calvary arrives to help more. With this training, it is intended that how you manage your neighborhood can integrate seamlessly with local emergency officials under the National Incident Management System - a new version of Incident Command System - so that when local fire, police and emergency preparedness arrive on scene, your operation just fits right into what they're doing to get you back on your feet as soon as possible. None of these people are trained in triage or emergency medicine beyond basic first aid, but they do get some basic training in shoring and rescue, search grids, and the like.
I've known about this program for several years but had never seen it in place until this past December during our ice storm when local CERTS were called to duty and manned shelters throughout the state in their home towns. In that instance, they never got much beyond serving hot coffee and setting up cots.
In this disaster, they really shined. CERT units from all over Kansas came to volunteer for days at a time, leading crews of volunteers out into the damage area to clear and sort debris and help property owners that can't help themselves. They were outfitted with portable radios and were able to set up a local communications system so their command post could communicate between people in the field and the Incident Command Post.
The lady I was assigned to was a buck rookie and had never been on scene of a major incident before, let alone managed people as a resource. It was hard not to let my background in Incident Command get in the way, but I quietly helped her here and there to make a few decisions and get people routed the right way and she did a very good job. We worked first as a a group of seven, then joined several other groups of nearly forty total to clean a large area and sort debris into the different piles they wanted for hauling off. Many hands make light work.
As you watch these disasters on local and national news, look for the regular folks in fluorescent green vests and dark green helmets. Those are the CERTS. If you have a chance to get the training, do it. During the ice storm, our neighborhood was lucky to have several of us trained in fireground control and incident management, plus my neighbor's a sergeant in the Army and is used to telling guys what to do. We aren't CERTs, but we managed our neighborhood intelligently, accounted for all the residents and elderly folks, made sure they had warm places to secure in place and made sure everyone had plenty of warm food and cold beer as we waited for the power companies. After a week without power and freezing temps, no one got hurt. No one lost food or went hungry. No one was left to feel like no one else knew how they were doing or that they were alright, should they have chosen to stay in their home. And our neighborhood is so much closer than what it was before the storm. As the mailman for this 'hood, I used to be the only guy around that knew everyone else's names. You might get a wave from someone but that was about it. Today, you can go out any evening and see neighbors crossing the street to visit, sharing a beer or iced tea, whatever. What more does a good neighborhood need? LOL
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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