This is topic Seems like a really stupid law in forum Member forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.


To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=001824

---

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 26, 2008, 11:18 AM:
 
Here in Colorado it is legal to kill bobcats using an electronic caller. It is not legal to use for mountain lions. I am licenced for both and both critters share the same habitat and hunting season.

So what would I do If a big cat walks in instead of a little one while using a Foxpro?

I was at the Sportman's Expo yesterday and I asked 2 different game wardens this question. The first one doubted me that you can use electronics for bobcats. I explained that you could and he believed me but refused to give me an answer. Who could blame him? The next was a retired federal game warden. He told me, the answer is simple. If there's a G.W. you're screwed, and if there isn't one, your okay! DUUUUH!

What would you do?

[ January 26, 2008, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 26, 2008, 11:46 AM:
 
Danny, you do the same thing as during a contest when the rule says all coyotes must be "called". Well, it is directed at trapping, but it can be a problem when you jump a coyote crossing the road, or kick one out while walking to a stand. What you do is: lipsqueak/bang! Ethics and such are one thing, but considering the enormous odds against calling a lion with anything, to do it with one hand tied behind your back, is assinine. What I mean is the difference between focusing the animals attention on yourself, versus the sound coming from a remote speaker. Then consider hunting them with dogs and you can begin to understand that the deck is stacked against you, and it's all bullshit.

I just have a problem with unenforceable and illogical regulations. All laws restricting electronic game calls are pretty stupid, in my opinion.

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on January 26, 2008, 12:30 PM:
 
Kill it.
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 26, 2008, 12:39 PM:
 
Yea,I agree with Leonard.It seems like stupid laws are meant to be broken.lol That law makes no sense to me.It's almost like they make those stupid laws so they have a "reason" to bust you for something.

There's a law in Nevada that says you don't need a license to kill Coyotes,you can kill as many as you like 1 or 1000 doesn't make any difference but skin one of them for the purpose of selling the green pelt and as a nonresident you better have a 175 dollar trappers license.So what if my intent is to tan it(them) and keep it in my collection of furs.lol STUPID B.S LAWS

Trapping License
Per NRS 503.454 every person who takes fur-bearing mammals by any legal method or unprotected mammals by trapping or ***** raw furs for profit shall procure a trapping license. It is unlawful to remove or disturb the trap of any holder of a trapping license while the trap is being legally used by him on public land or on land where he has permission to trap.

A hunting license or permit is not required to hunt unprotected mammals, including coyotes (Learn more about coyote hunting regulations. ) , skunks and weasels. However, remember, if you take fur-bearing mammals by any legal method or unprotected mammals by trapping or ***** raw furs for profit you will need a trapping license.

No wonder why F.G are not a welcome site....S.O.B's

Good Hunting Chad

[ January 26, 2008, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

---

Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on January 26, 2008, 02:33 PM:
 
Local, is the defintion of an electronic call defined in the law? If not then blast away. If it is I would be interested in seeing what their definition is.
I am all for law and order and against POACHING so I vould not shoot zat Lion if it came in to zee evectronics... I know nothing!
 

---

Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on January 26, 2008, 03:41 PM:
 
turn it on and call bobcats..... if you see a lion, turn it down and shoot... i think one would have to prove that you were purposely calling mt lions and not bobcats or coyotes.
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 26, 2008, 04:09 PM:
 
That's why I think it is a stupid law.I would bet my bottom dollar that even if you left your e-caller in the truck and called/killed the lion with hand calls that if you were checked at your vehicle,just the fact that you had the E-caller in your truck they would nail you.It's one of those one crime fits all laws.Pure B.S

Good Hunting Chad
 

---

Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on January 26, 2008, 04:22 PM:
 
I am willing to bet Chad is right.
Reasonable doubt exists. It's probably up to the CO's discretion. Maybe he/ she thinks it's a stupid law as well. It's too opened ended for my taste. The flip side of the coin is they could just ban the use of e-calls for everything, which would suck for the fine folks of Cholerarada-o.
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 26, 2008, 05:21 PM:
 
Yeah, well I have heard the same type of speculation about spotlighting in AZ. It is said by some that the mere posession of a spotlight is ipso facto poaching, and in point of fact, a warden or LE officer has to observe the hunting and there are other considerations like during deer season and do you have the means to take an animal, etc. etc.

In other words, searching a vehicle and finding an electronic caller doesn't prove anything, even in the People's Republik of Kalifornia. Imagine that you have a CD of game calls in your vehicle and a player in the dash. Cuff 'em and stuff 'em, right?

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 26, 2008, 05:23 PM:
 
I think you're right smithereens, that it is up to the individual game warden. I've thought about calling the game warden in that area and asking him how he would handle it. He might agree with me and say it's okay. If that's the case I would doument our conversation on paper then go calling. I was afraid though, I might be opening a can of worms in the event it did happen.

If your guilty, any game warden can chew you out, fine you and take away the animal, or throw you in jail. I suppose a 4th thing they could do is let you off the hook if they were so inclined.
 

---

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 26, 2008, 05:27 PM:
 
That's a dang fine point Leon', I mean just because they found that pound of weed in my glove-box doesn't mean I was gonna smoke it!!!

Jest joshin', we're on the same side, I just can't resist playing the devil's advocate sometimes!
 

---

Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on January 26, 2008, 05:48 PM:
 
Keep yer mouth shut, say NO when they ask if they can search, hand them yer ID.
Being a legal hunter does not mean you wont get a ticket. "It all depends". I grew up thinking seeing a cop of any kind was a good thing. Now I think 'most' of them are.
Dont take me wrong, hunt legal, poachers suck, but do not stupidly give up your rights either.
an american
Carl
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 26, 2008, 06:01 PM:
 
That's right too! Should have thought of that right at first. I would never allow a warantless search. They are smart though. I once had a game warden sneak around to the back of my camper and open the door as he asked me (while he was opening the door) if I minded if he took a look inside. He didn't find anything but some cased guns.

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 26, 2008, 06:50 PM:
 
How are mountain lions classified in CO? If they are classified as Big Game, then the prohibition of electronic callers in their pursuit may be not so much a conflict between one cat and another, but the distinction between using electronics to call Big Game versus using them to call furbearers. Are you allowed to use e-callers for elk deer or sheep?

for the record, I have seen very few Conservation Officers (aka Game Wardens, Conservation Agents, NRO's) that had decent recall of the laws and regulations they are charged with enforcing. Maybe it's the away the laws are written - ambiguous and shot full of loop holes. On the other hand, maybe it's a matter of no discipline and low expectations. I know a lot of Sheriff's Deputies, Police Officers, and State Troopers, and with very few exceptions, these guys can cite any law they enforce by its name, its wording and the statute number. Not the case in Conservation LE. If you can catch the GW in his confusion before the judge, a lot of the times, the case will be dismissed and the officer admonished by the judge to encourage him to take his or her job more seriously.

Just an observation.

[ January 26, 2008, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
 

---

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 26, 2008, 08:44 PM:
 
Lions are considered big-game and you're right there is no e-callers allowed for big-game. However, we have game brochures. Elk, deer, antelope, moose are all included in one set of regs. Mountain goats and bighorn sheep have there own set of regs. and small game has their own also. Mountain lion has it's own set of regulations.

So I would be very surprised if mountain lions automatically were subject to the big-game laws (meaning ungulates). In fact, the mountain lion season begins "the day after the last day of the last season for big-game". No kidding, thats how its worded.

Now that I think about it though, the minimum caliber for both is .243.
 

---

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 27, 2008, 07:02 AM:
 
Leonard; That Warden wasn't Warren Crooker by any chanch was it? That sounds like one of his moves.

Loco; What you need to do is to WRITE to the Game & Fish Dept, asking specific questions. Keep a copy of your letter(s) and copys of the replys. Keep at it until you get specific answers.
 

---

Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on January 27, 2008, 11:11 AM:
 
I went and did some looking around Loco, It sure seems to me that you have more than just this one law that would fit this description? Why do you have to carry two documents when you are hunting lions? Your license AND your certificate for completing the identification course? Why don’t they just make it a requirement to present that certificate to get a license so you don’t have to pack a 3 ring binder around for all the documents you need to prove that you are obeying the law?

As I was reading the regulations it seemed to me that they were overly concerned with females being taken. The hound hunters would have more time to evaluate the animal in the tree than a caller would. That could be why they stack the deck against the caller?
 

---

Posted by JD (Member # 768) on January 27, 2008, 11:37 AM:
 
The game warden here told me I could shoot all the Mountain lions I want, the fee is $10,000 apiece plus court costs. If I were you Loco, I wouldn`t play games with a game warden, most don`t have a sense of humor & don`t count on a judge or anyone else admonishing a GW for anything.

Do what you must, but don`t count on your ability to reason to get you out of a jamb with these knuckleheads & NONE of this is worth risking your right to hunt, is it?

I don`t think I would have this conversation on the WWW either.
 

---

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 27, 2008, 11:47 AM:
 
Bryan,
In some areas, not all, they are asking for voluntarily take of males only. You won't be penalized for shooting a female, (I hope, the wording says voluntary). Anyway, its obviously for management. The test and certificate you mention is relatively simple deal that I found pretty interesting. I learned a bunch about lions. They teach about how to tell males from females by their strides (tracks in the snow) and size. Where to look for juevos on the animal etc. Some things were easier than others. The test had 20 multiple choice questions and you could miss 4 to pass. It was pretty simple actually. The certificate they give you can be printed out online and it is the size of a business card if you cut it out. Before you go hunting for lions you must call the 1-800 mountain lion number to check if the quotas are filled in your area. That's it. Pretty simple really but definatley more hoops to go thru than say - coyote hunting!

You are really thorough man, a guy from Utah checking the regs. for lions in CO. You must of gotten just as ticked off as I did!

P.S. Good advise Kok'

edit: for Kok'

[ January 27, 2008, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 27, 2008, 12:42 PM:
 
Actually Danny. Calling and asking these agents is not your guarantee. They are all quite willing to offer bogus advice, so getting it in writing does you no good, at all. You have to personally read and understand the regs. and be willing to defend yourself, on the spot, in the field. Getting some biologist's or game warden's interpretation of the Fish and Game Code is not always accurate information. It's all murky enough that two people can have three differing opinions. There is usually some conflict between State Law, and Game Codes. You need to remember that most of these guys are the hammer, and into enforcement, big time. Some of them are still sportsmen rather than bunny huggers and are on your side, for the most part. But, they are hiring PETA types more and more, and they have an agenda that is way different than yours.

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 27, 2008, 01:51 PM:
 
Leonard:But, they are hiring PETA types more and more, and they have an agenda that is way different than yours.

I couldn't agree more.It's all about money anymore.If you are willing to pay 10,000 dollars to kill an Animal I'm sure they won't push the reg's like some poor slob that is just paying the min. to kill an animal.They've made it almost uninviting to hunt $#%@ anymore.Then when people get sick of it and stop buying licenses then they change regs to boost more revenue in other areas.It seriously would not surprise me to see limits,licenses,and season dates on coyotes in the near future.Where in states like Utah,Nevada,and Wyoming that is unheard of.Got to get that money somewhere.lol

Oh well done venting.....

Good Hunting Chad
 

---

Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on January 27, 2008, 06:01 PM:
 
Danny, I don’t have a problem with the requirement of completing a class as long as it is available regularly or online and doesn’t limit hunter opportunities. The fact that you have to have BOTH on your person just seems like they are looking for ways to give you a ticket. (more things to keep track of kind of thing) I think it should be handled the same as the hunter safety course, the fact that you were able to get the license should be proof that you completed the identification course.

There are more under Furbearer methods of take::

In addition to legal methods of take listed above, you can use the
following to hunt furbearers:
1. The only kind of traps legal for recreational take of furbearers
are live traps.

I take it from what I’m reading there, as a nonresident I can both call and cage (I will not call it trapping or hunting) bobcats with a nonresident small game license. So I decide to make a trip over and spend a week or so calling and try my hand at caging a few ‘cats. So I read on to find this:

5. It is illegal to use visual lures, fresh
meat baits, fish oil and anise oil lures to attract felids in lynx
recovery areas or where lynx are.

That one there is a catch all! I can comply in the recovery area because it is well defined, but outside of those boundaries until I see a lynx or signs of one how am I supposed to know? There are more flaws and potential loopholes (for your neck) in that one too!

I think Jay Leno would have fun with this one, it kind of speaks for itself.

4. You must check traps at least daily. In Canada lynx recovery
area or where lynx are, you must check traps every 24 hours.

In your situation Loco I wouldn’t have any mountain lion vocalizations on your FoxPro! I also wouldn’t have a FoxPro in the truck if I also had a lion.

Leonard and Chad are right! There is one CO that wouldn’t blink an eye about writing me up if my trap was 29 feet 10 inches from a carcass. The other might recommend that I nudge that skunk a little further away. To some we are all poachers and must prove ourselves innocent.

[ January 27, 2008, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Bryan J ]
 

---

Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on January 27, 2008, 08:26 PM:
 
Goode call Bryan!

I think I'll just have to learn how to use cat vocalizations with a handcall. Next call is to rainshadow to learn how. I road the roads last weekend up high in the forest hoping to cut fresh cat tracks where I could call for either bobcats or lions. I only had distress handcalls. I just got to thinking ... what if ...

Great advise Uncle Leon' and Bryan. I like the idea of writing a letter repeatedly until I get an answer too. I can pretty much guarantee that I won't, but I do like the idea!
 

---

Posted by BigO (Member # 1062) on January 31, 2008, 12:58 PM:
 
I can't argue with the fact that some officers are asses. One might write you a ticket for 66 in a 55, another might not write you until you hit 70. Im sure Game Wardens are the same way.

I agree with Lance, at least here most game wardens are more concerned about you having a license for what ever you are hunting, and don't really know the actual law. You may still get a ticket and lose your catch but you wil probably win in court.

I hate to say it, but I also agree with Leonard. If you are asked "Can I search your vehicle?" The correct answer is "NO!!!!" There are little tricks officers use to get into your vehicle, like being humorous about asking. "Do you have any handgrenades or bazookas in your car? No?? Can I look?" Think about how many people have been in your car. Is it possible that they may have dropped something in it? Are you willing to go to jail for what ever they dropped? Just say "NO".
 

---

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 31, 2008, 02:05 PM:
 
. You must check traps at least daily. In Canada lynx recovery
area or where lynx are, you must check traps every 24 hours.


Sounds convoluted at first reading, but there is a difference.

In Kansas, until several years ago, the law stated that you had to check traps every 24 hours. One of our state trapping association members became the target of a less than scrupulous game warden who knew he was on prime ground and wanted it for himself. So, one morning, he watched the guy go in to check his traps. The next day, he got a bit delayed and the game warden was waiting from him when he got there an hour later than usual, or in other words, 25 hours later. He got the ticket, and the game warden reported to the propery owner that the guy was breaking the law on his land. Before the matter was dismissed in court, the game warden was well established on his new property.

Later that year, I was on a cmmittee that was asked to review furbearer and trapping regs for revisions in response to our complaints about situations like this, and we requested that the law be changed to state that traps must be checked "at least once each calendar day" (as it is now worded). In other words, I could have checked my traps at 12:01 this morning, and am not legally required to check that same trap until 11:59 tomorrow night if I don't get to it any earlier.

Now, you might read this accounting and say to yourself, "What a bunch of &#$*", and you would be right, but, it's &#$* regs and &#$* game wardens that have brought us to this place.

I think you have to have a certain amount of &#$* in you to fully understand the wildlife regs with any hopes of keeping yourself out of deep &$#*.
 

---

Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on January 31, 2008, 04:52 PM:
 
Thanks Lance, I can see the difference, just not the need for the difference unless they are looking to get into your pocket.

On a calling note: Do you think the right game warden would write a guy up for having a decoy while calling in a lynx area?

5. It is illegal to use visual lures , fresh meat baits, fish oil and anise oil lures to attract felids in lynx
recovery areas or where lynx are.
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 31, 2008, 05:39 PM:
 

quote:

---

5. It is illegal to use visual lures , fresh meat baits, fish oil and anise oil lures to attract felids in lynx
recovery areas or where lynx are.

---

quote:

---

Someday, when the statute of limitations expires, remind me to tell you a story.

---

I used to have a few stories like that, then I started hearing about them using DNA samples, and got to thinking what might happen if they ever doubled the time for the statute of limitations to expire?

So I decided to forget what shouldn't be remembered.
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 01, 2008, 08:03 AM:
 
Leonard:I would say they are losing their trust with sportsmen, and it's unfortunate.

For me the key word is "LOST" not "LOSING".lol

As far as telling stories go,I adhere to the "Speak no Evil,Hear no Evil,See no Evil" concept.That way I really don't worry to much about the statute of limitations.lol It's kept me out of trouble so far...

Good Hunting Chad
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 01, 2008, 12:07 PM:
 
See, that's the problem with respect. They lobby for laws, then change the laws and enforce them arbitrarily. Then, they (prosecutors) will do something like toss the statute of limitations. Well, everybody goes along with it, if it's a priest and involves young boys, but I'm not okay with it, as a general rule.

Self incrimination is sorta stupid, but I will admit to exceeding the speed limit on a few rare occasions when it was set at 55MPH. However. They will never take me alive!

Oh yeah. Respect for a guy doing his job in an honorable way, is one thing. But, I was involved(sorta) in something years ago, and had certain knowledge of events. It broke my naive little peapickin' heart to know that a law enforcement officer would be willing to lie on the witness stand. In one case, he later admitted that he didn't remember, and in another, it was a flat out lie, in fact, in two incidents, I am positive these professional policemen lied, and in a fourth situation, the story was so unbelievable to anyone except the jury as to be laughable.

Okay, they are human and can make mistakes, but everything is slanted in their direction with a jury. Who you going to believe? The nervous perpetrator or the smooth professional that has testified hundreds of times, in uniform. This has a huge effect on a jury or a judge.

To illuminate. A couple of night hunters were busted by wardens, observing in a fixed wing aircraft at 10,000ft at night, within a quarter mile of a county line that didn't allow night hunting, without any visual markers whatsoever, in a remote location. Well, with radios and all that, they were stopped at a different location, guns confiscated and spent a day in court. I don't even know the guys, but I knew people that knew them. The point being, out in the trackless desert, without a fenced and marked border, like they do on major highways, who can tell exactly where the border is, especially from that altitude, and how can they identify a license plate, or any of the people inside a vehicle? THey can't. And, was it legit?

I don't think the hunters knew, and I don't think the wardens could tell either? This was before GPS, by the way. But my point is, they were willing to stand up in court and claim this bullshit and the jury convicted them .....well, because, these officers were professionals, right? What reason would they have to lie, right? Why would they be hostile to sportsmen? Well, that's a good question.

As I recall, there was a $5,000 fine? Whatever?

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 01, 2008, 01:13 PM:
 
Yea that is a bunch of B.S...Or here's something else to think about,it might not be by jury or what not.But say you are from out of state and have traveled 300+ miles to get where you are hunting.Said F/G Man decides to give you a ticket for some B.S infraction,that he knows damn well will get tossed if it is brought before a judge,but he knows it's not worth the guys time to make the 600 mile round trip drive to fight it,after he sees where he's from.Just another chickenshit example of over stepping there authority.I'm sure we could make a 10 page thread about how many times it's happened to people.LOL

Good Hunting Chad

[ February 01, 2008, 01:14 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 01, 2008, 02:22 PM:
 
That's true, as well. I got a totally bogus radar ticket on a re$ervation; and I run radar all the time. I saw this cruiser from three quaters of a mile away, and was doing the speed limit; even before I saw him. He whipped around and stopped me. I questioned him emphatically to no avail, asked to see the readout. He said he reset it already. Except for an administrative error on the part of the county courthouse, I would have been screwed, but I won the case. The lawyer cost me over four times the amount of the bail, (which they refunded) but in terms of a conviction affecting my insurance rates for years to come, I was well ahead on the deal.

Good hunting. LB

(actually, it wasn't a "he" it was a fat squaw)

[ February 01, 2008, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

---

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 01, 2008, 03:49 PM:
 
Twenty some years ago, I was in a bad car wreck. They said if it hadn't been for my seatbelt, I'd have been killed or at least paralyzed. Dad had always been pretty good about his seatbelts up to that point, but I've never known him to fail to put one on, before putting a vehicle in gear since.

A couple of years ago, while visiting his brother, a few miles North of Tata in the land of Fruits and Nuts. He was pulled over and ticketed for not wearing one. Even though he and Mom both insisted that they were.

It's the only ticket he has ever had in his life.

His pickup now has the darkest tint allowed by law.

An LEO's word is gold when it gets to Court. Don't bet on a Judge or Jury to contradict what he says.
 

---

Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on February 01, 2008, 08:09 PM:
 
I have always maintained that if an officer of the law wants to pull me over all he has to do is follow me long enough and I will give him a reason. The last three times it has been because there is a trailer plug in place of one of my license plate lights. The last two times I asked them how many DWI’s he had picked up that night. The response was a laugh and “have a safe evening”. LOL That is not a big deal to me.

This gal that I know called me one afternoon crying so bad that I couldn’t understand her. Pretty quick the phone gets passed off and a man says this is Deputy so and so. I told him my name and asked what was going on. As it turns out the gal had gotten a speeding ticket and forgot about it. A warrant for her arrest had been issued and he had no choice but to take her to jail. LOL He gave me instructions on how to post bail and about how long it would take to get her processed. Usually in situations like this the criminal is hooked up and gets a ride in the patrol car. Not this time, she was allowed to drive herself to jail and didn’t get cuffed until she got out of the car. She found out later that the officer actually could have lost his job for doing that.

My last experience with a wildlife officer I was hunting out of state. Heather and I had just killed a coyote and were bringing it back to the truck. I think they just stopped to talk. After we had visited for a while they acted like they were getting ready to move on. I was the one who asked if they wanted to see our licenses. I paid good money for it and by gawd I was going to show it to them! LOL I guess they had already determined that we had nothing to hide, I don’t know?

My brother inlaw tells me all the time about the new guy on the force who is going to single handedly bring order to the community. He says they grow out of it eventually.

I’m lucky I guess, sorry to ramble on.

[ February 01, 2008, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Bryan J ]
 

---

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 01, 2008, 08:34 PM:
 
Body language, Bryan. You had nothing to hide and it was obvious. Border Patrol stands between lanes and watches hundreds of vehicles per hour. They know what to look for, and you don't fit the profile. Especially with a wife. They would never have pegged you as a poacher.

Yeah, I did that once too. We were talking guns and ammo with a BP, and I suddenly asked the guy if he thought I could be a "coyote" or a drug runner? He replied calmly; "if I'd a thought that, you'd be out in the dirt spread eagled, a long time ago"

Good hunting. LB
 

---

Posted by Bryan J (Member # 106) on February 03, 2008, 01:36 PM:
 
You’re probably right Leonard. I took a look at your bobcat laws.

I have been thinking about those in law enforcement with an agenda. How many B.S. tickets do they write before they get reigned in or lose their credibility? It HAS to catch up to them eventually doesn’t it?
 

---

UBB.classic^TM 6.3.0