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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on August 05, 2007, 03:00 PM:
 
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,292168,00.html

Oklahoma police officer, shooting at a snake in a tree, kills a little boy with a stray bullet.

Now, I'm sure the office feels appropriately bad about such a tragedy, but what kind of idiot shoots at a snake in a tree, just because the snake is in the tree and poses no other threat, because the property owner said to, "just go ahead"? For the most part, the law enforcement officers I know - and I know a bunch of them - set the benchmark and are fine role models for how to own and use a gun safely.

Whatever happened to just allaying the property owner's anxiety by assuring them that the snake will be down on its own in due time and that shooting it would probably pose a greater risk to public safety than the snake does to begin with? Then, using the sense the good Lord gave you to find a way to get the snake down without firing firearms in a residential area?

There's going to be a lot of damage control to do after something as boneheaded as this. His price for being stupid: involuntary manslaughter and restitution, not to mention the end of his career as an LEO.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 05, 2007, 04:15 PM:
 
Thats one less cop to worry about..
 

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Posted by BigO (Member # 1062) on August 06, 2007, 04:41 PM:
 
WITH AN INTELLIGENT STATEMENT LIKE THAT, IT'S NO WONDER YOU RUN HEAVY EQUIPMENT.
 

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Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on August 06, 2007, 05:38 PM:
 
TA I like your choice in cartridges but not too fond of your statement above.
My dad was the chief of police in my home town. Fontana Ca.
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on August 06, 2007, 06:40 PM:
 
BIG O, what does running heavy equipment have to do with intelligence? That statement shows your ignorance .
The fact that anyone's dad, uncle, brother or they themselves are officers of the law does not take away from the fact that this ignoramus' actions took the life of a child.
 

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Posted by furhvstr (Member # 1389) on August 06, 2007, 06:51 PM:
 
Wasn't defending the cop Smithers. It APPEARS that he is responsible and made a really bad mistake. Unfortunate on the highest level.
TA's comment I felt was uncalled for and not too classy.
Not sure I understand your ref. to operators.

[ August 06, 2007, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: furhvstr ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 06, 2007, 06:54 PM:
 
My dad was a city cop also no big deal. But to be honest i hate the S.O.B's
 

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Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on August 06, 2007, 07:07 PM:
 
BO~ WITH AN INTELLIGENT STATEMENT LIKE THAT, IT'S NO WONDER YOU RUN HEAVY EQUIPMENT.

It looks to me that BO was implying that it takes very litte intelligence to run equipment or if you do you are a slobbering imbecile.
I, as I sometimes do, was pointing out that countering a perceived "stupid" statement with an equally ignorant statement deserves mention.
I was not alluding to you in my post directly furhvstr, it was a general blanket statement.

[ August 06, 2007, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
 

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Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on August 06, 2007, 10:22 PM:
 
I hired a lot of heavy equipment operators over the years. It takes a lot of intelligence and finesse to be a good operator. You almost have to be born with the ability to predict the actions needed.
I also trained a lot of pilots and it is a lot easier to make somebody a decent pilot than a competent dozer operator.

Jack
 

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Posted by Rezgulator (Member # 1548) on August 06, 2007, 11:21 PM:
 
What a TRAGIC loss! How could one's parents cope and recover from such an outrageouse atrocity. May the Lord in some way or some how comfort them. My prayers do go out to that family.

It would be intresting to find out how long this officer was on the department. Departments with shallow budgets do not get a whole lot of options to chose from for officers. The pay may be lower which usually does not attrack quality applicants. Southern Cal. cops do fairly well.

T17Rem- I do have some what of an understanding why you hate cops. I was one for 7 years and loved almost every minute of it. I, to this day say, "What I won't do for the brothers in blue- unto death!" The same for Jar-heads. Although hanging around a bunch of jar-heads can be like hanging around a bunch of Rambo's- not very easy. But love'em none the less.

On the other hand, I've worked with some officers who did not belong and did not make the best choices, deeply scaring people for life. (As you see in this situation) The situations that take place between cops, especially in the larger cities, is unbelievable. They can get caught up in the crasziest situations, tearing their own families apart. They do, as you probably know, have a very high rate suicide. (If that makes you feel any better) If you can accept about yourself and others, "if you're breathing, you/we are going to screw something up." It's like bull riding, "It's not if your going to get hurt, but when and how bad."

One thing was for sure, I loved chasing and catching women beaten meth freaks. I mean these guy's didn't just beat their women, they pulverized them. Snapping bones, blasting out teeth with fist blows to the face while the remaining teeth cut through. They screamed in agony. Most of the time those guys would cower down like a wuss when you caught them. With things like this occurring where would we be w/o cops? Cops are not fixers, just stopper for the moment.

I know, as a cop, I never beat a guy who didn't know it was coming and to some degree received what he needed. (Some times it helped them and some times it just made them meaner) But I think we all needed to get our ass beat or at least chewed once in a while. Keeps us humble.

Don't get me wrong, about meth addicts (Or any addict in gen.). If a guy is hooked on something and wants help, thats another story. (I'd try and help him) It's the one's who want to keep raping and stealing who need the TLC of the ol' long arm.

When you work graveyards, you can get pretty clouded. I came up with a few sayings- "I NEVER had problem with people, just the ones that breath." And "One difference between cops and pastors is, at least cops get to beat people."

For those of you who are pro law enforcement, I just finished reading, "The Reapers Line", written by a retired customes agent who stood the line, battled hard and did not compermise. He is also a Veitnam SF veteran. One of the things I love to see, is these war toren veterans from the wars abroad and in our own country, come to a place of peace or at least some sort of rest. We as people are only designed to handle so much. From what I've heard, going to groups where only battle veterans gather and talk about what they went through helps a lot.

As for fathers, mine (Full Irish) had a very very hard life which he also placed on my mother (Native American) and us. I love and honor him with a sincerity. (Though by the world's standard, he don't deserve it) As I am commanded to honor him and my mother. I wish things were different, but they are the way they are and the sun keeps coming up.

Don't worry, this officer will pay in full, as we all will, one way or another. If not in this life, the next.

Oh-yeah, just remembered another saying I had to band from use, due to justified complaints. "We wouldn't even be here if your life wasn't such a pile of shit." Boy if that one didn't piss'em off nothing would.
 

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Posted by Crow Woman (Member # 157) on August 07, 2007, 04:03 AM:
 
wow... extremely well said rezgulator and refreshing to read!
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on August 07, 2007, 04:33 AM:
 
Rezgulator,

I read the book Reaper's line last summer. It sure gave me an odd feeling as I read it, I work in Douglas and spend a lot of my hunting time in some of the major drug areas that he talked about.

Everyone who likes to bitch about the migrants who come though here, need to read that book.

He does a great job of describing the culture of Mexican Law Enforcement and their Military. We will never get any help stopping the flow of drugs from the South side of the Border. And I honestly believe that the Politicians who make the decisions on the North side, don't want the flow of drugs to be stopped. Too much money to be made in the court systems and rehab businesses.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on August 07, 2007, 06:47 AM:
 
Jeeezus Rezgulator!! So from what I hear you saying I can come to the conclusion that there are good cops & bad cops....YOU were a good cop, yes? You think it`s O.K. to fore-go any legal proceedings & dish out the sentence that you feel fits the crime for that situation, yes? (i.e. beating the hell out of someone, only if they deserved it of course)

Hell man, you`re Billy the kid. I`m reminded of the line from "young guns"........"you`re all a bunch of little Billy bastards"

Tim may have come across a little harsh but I not only understand him but somewhat agree. There are few men on this earth that cause me any concern at all....but cops, they just scare the hell out of me & I personally know enough of them to arrive at that conclusion, they`re not all idiots but how many trigger happy idiots do we tolerate on the streets? I suppose as long as they`re jarheads & like to bash meth addicts for fun it`s O.K. to give em a gun & badge, yes?

& you were a "good one".........I feel so much safer.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 07, 2007, 07:19 AM:
 
Very sad deal indeed. It sounds like the Officer made a bad decision and an innocent little boy died. I wonder what kind of snake it was? A venomous snake that might have been a real danger? A harmless bullsnake? Do the Police there not carry shotguns in their cruiser? The Officer that fired that bullet is going to have very bad nightmares the rest of his life.
 

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Posted by rainshadow1 (Member # 899) on August 07, 2007, 08:41 AM:
 
Have to agree with Mr Cronk, very, very, VERY sad. Can't believe they didn't get a shotgun with bird shot. Must have been a city kid turned cop or something, no common sense, and it cost a child his life. If it were one of my sons in that boat, there would be some serious rage going on... very hard to forgive a man displaying such stupidity. (I'm a former LEO as well, lots of friends in uniform and respect for them and the job... but that was stupid. No other way to say it.)
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on August 07, 2007, 01:56 PM:
 
What I have to wonder is how it is that the training process didn't weed this guy out. Bad deal all the way around.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 07, 2007, 02:25 PM:
 
The Officer made a mistake. That doesn't necessarily mean that he is an all around bad cop. Doesn't make everything OK either. Just a very sad deal all the way around.
 

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Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on August 07, 2007, 04:51 PM:
 
That is my take too...Just a terrible tragedy. I don't think this guy is neccessarily a bad cop, it could just have been a temporarily lack of good judgment.

However, I do believe that police forces need to have a lot more extensive firearms training and testing than they currently have. I know far too many LEO's who are unfamiliar with their weapons.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on August 07, 2007, 05:32 PM:
 
Im not a cop, but I do work with cops daily. Cops are human. Some are good, some are bad. All make mistakes. Problem is when they make a mistake, it can be devestating for an innocent bystander.

Alot of the problem is pay scale, at least what I see. For instance, deputies in this county I live in start at approx 18k per year. It doesnt go up much from that. State Troopers get around 30k and go up from there. Plus the state has a great "80 and out" retirement plan. One of my best friends is a state trooper, exactly my age that started when he got out of college. Hes making about 45k now with great benifits. He will retire at 52yrs of age with 80% of what hes making then with the family benifits for life. Which is going to get better qualified people?

Im saying this to get to this. What I see alot of is the lower paid city and county cops are normally young with less education. Not saying all are, but if a guy goes to college to major in criminal justice, which job do you think hes going for? Most state cops are in it for the long haul til retirement or working up from there. Most of the locals are in it for a job. Some for a power trip. I know of a couple of locals that are in it because they want to make a difference in their home towns, damn the money. But not many. Also, besides college, the state has a tough acadamy. Locals dont have much training at all around here. I could go to work anytime for the county and do my training at night and be commissioned in a few months.

These are not the only reasons for good cop/bad cop, but they are definitely contributing factors.

The cop in question made a huge mistake and created a tragedy. I dont know of his training, but there is a good chance he didnt have as much. He definitely wasnt thinking clearly or he would have told the land owner that he didnt need to kill a snake, they needed to call a exterminator. On the surface, it sounds like a cop that was playing, with fire, in this case a kids life.

Its a sad story and makes me sick. But lumping cops all together is wrong. Being scared or hating cops is, forgive me for saying this, ignorant. Being afraid or hating certain cops is legit. I know if Im out of my home area or out of state, I feel much better if I am dealing with a state cop than a local cop, but that doesnt always hold true. I know a couple of rambo state dicks too.

Again, this is just my humble opinion and experience. And Im just a novice.
 

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Posted by claimbuster (Member # 904) on August 07, 2007, 05:42 PM:
 
No one group of people or profession has a captive market on stupidity. It seems to be well spread around.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on August 07, 2007, 05:46 PM:
 
One other thing I see as a good example, is when we have a runner go out of state. I have people all the time ask why we dont just call the local cops and have them arrested so they are for sure caught when we get there and all we have to do is transport.

Theres a couple of problems with this. One, we get paid to produce skips to the court. So I feel obligated to do it myself. The other is the luck of the draw when you call the cops. If you get a good cop, it normally works out good. They will do their job best they can and catch the guy. If you get a bad cop, doughnut eater, they may not do anything or alert our skip and make our job harder.

Example. I located a guy in Florida last year. My partner insisted that I get LE involved. I called the local cops down there about 3 that afternoon. The cop I got said no problem. He called back an hour later and said the addy I gave him didnt exist, sorry. I did some more research and found out he was full of it and called back about 9pm. I got the night shift seargent. A couple hours later I got a call from him and he said they were looking thru the window at our guy and wanted to verify the warrant before they kicked the door as he wouldnt open it. When we went to transport him, he told us they had 12 cop cars outside this addy that didnt exist.

The first cop most likely didnt even drive by. Im actually glad he didnt find it as he probably would have knocked on the door, drove off and the skip would have moved on to another location and I would have to start over.

Just another good example of the difference in cops. You cant lump them all together.
 

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Posted by Rezgulator (Member # 1548) on August 07, 2007, 06:46 PM:
 
JD No, no, no- When a suspect stops fighting or resisting, an officer MUST stop as well. An officer must remain within the law and the dept. policies! I believe that firmly! I discribe it as a switch. You just turn it (physical methods of arrest)off when the suspect begins to complies. How can one just turn off the switch? Good training, good supervisiors and don't take it personal. It's when it becomes personal, an officer is unable to stop. I believed the suspect would be reacting in an uncorporative/combative manner whether it was me or any other person. If law enforcement don't ruin you, it will make you stronger, give you a better understanding of people and maybe make you a little off plum.

Do you mean brush court? What's wrong with a little brush court? "O.k. scumbag, brush court is now in session and you have been found guilty in the 1st degree. Relax dude, just kidding. I have lost a number of cases to glitches in the system. You must learn to accept the situation's out come whether they got away with it or not. Whether they got what they deserved or not.

"Little Billy bastard", that's funny. I don't mind being called that. (I love that movie, as you might guess.) I know who I is. If I didn't know me and what I stood for, I'd be cast all around like a leaf in the wind.

To be honest with you, I do prefer to be called, "****** Redneck." (My mom shakes her head, but she'll be o.k.) "I can skin a buck- I can run a trout line- A county boy can survive."

Were you or are you in law enforcement? What type of law enforcement? What type of area? What type of department? And if you are/were, were you eating a min. of one shit sandwich a night with an average of 2 to 3? If you battle hard enough and long enough, you will change and never be the same. Further more, have you ever looked into the eyes of a serverely batterd woman the day after you took her man to jail. Very few other looks have had so much depth.

When I was with a PD, it was not in a cop friendly area. A community dictates how cops react. Beverly Hills and Palo Alto are area's aggressive type law enforcement is not needed. It's in oppressed communities and cultures where aggressive law enforcement comes to rise out of necessity. Many people, maybe your one, have ideals which do not agree with how things are done. Go out and try your ideals. Until you try out your ideals, I wouldn't say too much. My ideals went out the window in about in about 1.2 seconds.

As far as you being worried when you deal with cops, I can understand. Even with my past, I get nervous around some, telling myself I better get away from this ass. They become some what paranoid and squirrly eyed.

Beating all and any addicts. NO! If you can bear it, reread what I wrote. If an addict wants help, help him or her. There is a big difference between someone who wants help and someone who wants to keep drug'n.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 07, 2007, 07:51 PM:
 

quote:

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Further more, have you ever looked into the eyes of a serverely batterd woman the day after you took her man to jail. Very few other looks have had so much depth

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The guys I found myself respecting were the ones that kept it in perspective. They didn't derive some sort of perverse pleasure from the misfortunes of others, like it sounds like Rezgulator did and still does.

I'm not saying you (Rezgulator) were or were not fully into the career, but I can usually tell a full-timer, ass deep in the job, because they tend to not be so gung ho about sharing hero stories. In fact, they tend to avoid sharing so much of themselves and their memories, especially to people outside the profession. From your words, you seemed to have enjoyed the beatings part too much and maybe it was a good thing you got out when you did. And, I'll just leave my .02 at that because you seem like an otherwise good guy.

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Lance, that is exactly what I wanted to say but I guess I don`t have your ability to clearly express myself on a keyboard. It`s THOSE kinds of cops that scare me, when they wear a badge, they`re God & they know it. The worst part is that when they`re still wearing a badge you can`t give them the asswhooping they need so I guess I`ll have to settle for harrassing them over the internet after they retire.

I also have some experience on a rescue squad & I have absolutly no desire to talk about those things in depth, I loved my time on the squad but not as much as I hated it, only a few will understand that.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 08, 2007, 10:59 AM:
 
"The worst part is that when they`re still wearing a badge you can`t give them the asswhooping they need so I guess I`ll have to settle for harrassing them over the internet after they retire."
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Wow JD, I believe that your Daddy brought you up right. I remember a few guys back in my time who had not learned that they couldn't try to whip my arse just because I wore a badge. I also often wished that I was a big tall tough looking Officer like my friend Ernie Gray.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on August 08, 2007, 02:48 PM:
 
JD and Rich,

There was a young cop in a nearby town that would go to bars and stir up crap. When he was about to get an ass beating, would pull out his badge. Then get backup and thump on some (people who needed it) heads with his posse in blue around.

To make the story a bit shorter, the posse in blue got tired of this guy, and didn't show up one time and dickhead has got a serious ass beating.

It's sad that there is a US vs THEM system. They aren't being held to the same accountability and the non LEO's.

Hell, just talk to some of the battered women who are married to cops.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 08, 2007, 08:22 PM:
 
DanS,
That young cop should have had his badge pinned to his ass, and ran out of Dodge. We don't need his kind in ANY town.
 

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Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on August 08, 2007, 08:27 PM:
 
"Hell, just talk to some of the battered women who are married to cops."
----------------------------
Those women should be filing criminal charges. Anyone convicted of domestic abuse is no longer allowed to carry a firearm.
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on August 09, 2007, 02:21 PM:
 
Rich,

I hope I'm not displaying contempt for LEO's. Because that isn't what I was trying to post. Having a few in the family, I get to hear some wild stuff. But this thin blue line, US vs THEM, and laws don't generally apply to us routine gets my goat, along with the "Civilian" remarks.

[ August 09, 2007, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by Rezgulator (Member # 1548) on August 10, 2007, 03:31 PM:
 
General responce

This will be my last responce to this topic. I didn't mean to rub any body wrong. For that I do apologize. I still believe in what I wrote, but should have taken into concideration not everyone takes the same stance.

Let me ask, "What started this topic in this direction?" I stand for cops, what they endure and will freely relay how I see things, if statements agaisnt them, such as these were and are made. If certain comments were not made, I would have kept my hole shut.

I never intended to show myself as a perfect cop or I would not have mentioned all that I did. I made mistakes, learned about people and myself.

I should have remembered all the past discussion I had with EMT's, Paramedic's and Firemen. In most cases, it did not come down to who was right or who was wrong, but what they believed.

The main issues that formed what they believed about this topic was, how they saw the person or situatuin at hand (even though they were uncontrollable), not having control of the situation to get the desired outcome, how they saw them selves, how they wanted to be seen, what they could and could not live with.

I know we are not to judge our fellow men and I guess it could be taken that way. I also know not to call what is good- evil and what is evil- good.

Never the less someone needs to deal with hard core drug addicts. There is no debaiting with them. No matter how much you hate seeing or hearing of the harsh method's, they will not change. I

I would like to say, "What's the ratio of good cops to bad cops and to good woman beat meth freaks to bad woman meth freaks?", but the issue is not with meth addicts, but my responces. For that all I can say is, I guess that's how it affected. Am I uncommon in these views? "No" Will my views change? Will yours change, "No."
Have you seen or been a part of communities that have meth problems on a large scale.

As far as "Jones'n" off of other's misfortunes- That not the case! I will admit I "Jones'd" off of locking horns with those that caused the misfortune.

As far as drugs go and this Nation*, * who soul is being sold to Mexico, I highly recommend, "The Repear's Line" by Lee Morgan a retired Customs Agaent, former Border Patrol Agent and S.F. veteran.

JD It's not that I thought I was God, but did stand on His word. Proverbs 28:1- "The wicked flee when no one pursue's and the upright are as bold as lions."

As for giving asswhooping's and harrassing over the internet. Get a clue, bro. If you had an understanding, you would not take it there. And why would some one want to go in that direction, but if your 12.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on August 10, 2007, 04:14 PM:
 
Wow, did you just take Gods word out of context to justify beating on people?

quote:

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If you had an understanding, you would not take it there.

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Why not? Are you & the bro`s in blue going to pay me a visit? Maybe pistol whip my wife & kids in the middle of the night. Just be cautious, they have more practice with a pistol than you guys do.

Seriously Billy, I`m just jerkin` your chain, I know that not all cops are bad & there is a time & place for putting a knot on someones head, but you know damn well how often the line is crossed & sometimes the line is just plain erased. I know a little more about this than you think, there is a dark side to law enforcement, no?

I`m just a concerned citizen who aint afraid to call bullshit, even at the risk of being pistol whipped.
 

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Posted by BigO (Member # 1062) on August 10, 2007, 05:51 PM:
 
TA17REM

I owe you an apology. I don't believe you're an idiot, and I don't think that someone that runs heavy equipment is any less intelligent than I or anyone else is.

I'M SORRY!!!

Having said that let me please explain my reason for saying what i said.

I am a Deputy, and have been for 11yrs. I have seen more death and dismemberment than I care to remember. I have actually pulled a man from a burning mobile home only for him to die 3 days later. I am very proud of what I do, and I take great offense in being lumpped into the same category as these "trigger happy" officers who shoot a man 39 times. I do my job and am very polite and respectable. Untill someone gives me a reason not to be. I have a saying that I have lived by for several years. "You wanna act like an animal, I'm gonna treat you like an animal." I took your comment about "one less cop" as you acting like an animal.

I'm sorry for your unfortunate dealings with my brother officers. It sounds like you have every right to be upset. But please be assured. Not all police are bad guys. Please dont take my comment to heart. When I wrote it I had been up all night working a child molestation and child pornography case.

Once again, I apologize!!
BigO
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on August 10, 2007, 07:27 PM:
 
No problem BigO. I just can't believe how they have their priorities mixed up. We had my neighber help with the search, he is the part time police cheif and county deputy sherriff. I asked him why the county sherriff in the county where accident was why he would'nt help and his reply was they don't care...Have a nice fall.... T.A.
 

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Posted by newbomb (Member # 888) on August 10, 2007, 07:40 PM:
 
Great post brother Lance, I couldnt have said it better myself.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on August 11, 2007, 12:00 PM:
 
I believe there is a culture in law enforcement. I would never want the job. Some people should be severely screened from the responsibility of the badge, and it should be an ongoing screening.

I believe there is an attitude that causes certain people to gravitate twoards law enforcement. Have I said everybody, or all individuals? No, but there is a fair number of men (especially) that are in it for all the wrong reasons.

Nothing I ever knew or thought I knew about the job was so discouraging as learning that a professional policeman is just as capable of lying on the witness stand as the average perp. I have seen them say things I know to be untrue, and (yet) the benefit of the doubt is always given to the man with the badge.

I have also seen where some cops believe themselves to be exempt from the laws, traffic laws, game laws, many catagories. In general, I would say they actually don't have respect for the rule of law.

Please note, I did not say all, and do not believe all cops to be in the wrong job. But, they can definately display a bunker mentality, and that is unfortunate. NOT ALL, okay?

Good hunting. LB
 

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