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Author
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Topic: What am I doing wrong?????
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BigO
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1062
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posted January 15, 2007 05:02 PM
I've made several stands in the last month with no luck. I assumed it was the weather. Well we all know what they say about assuming.
We finally got the crappy weather I've been waiting for. For the last two days it's been sleeting and snowing off and on. We got about two inches on the ground.
I got up at o'dark-thirty this morning put on all my warm camo gear and headed out to a 1/4 section with a small creek running through it. Someone has thrown a dead calf and a few deer carcasses in this creek. I figured the critters would be going nuts over this place!!
I parked a 1/4 mile away behind a large stack of square bales to hide my vehicle and walked almost the whole 1/2 mile into the field along a tree row. The wind was out of the north, I set up facing the west. put my speaker about 60-70 feet back to the south at the bottom of a tree. If a coyote came out of the creek bottom, I could try to coax him in close or take about a 200 yrd. long shot at him.
I sat there for about twenty minutes (freezing) before I began calling. As soon as it got light enough for me to see, I started calling. I would play a series on the call then sit and wait about 4 or 5 minutes. Not seeing anything, I played another series. This went on for about 45 minutes. I finally gave up and went back to my vehicle.
The temperature was about 18 degrees this morning, wind was blowing 10-20 miles an hour, 20 minutes after sunrise. Is this a good time to call, or am I doing something wrong????
Please help!! I apparently need it!!
Posts: 64 | From: reno co. ks. | Registered: Dec 2006
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Cal Taylor
Knows what it's all about
Member # 199
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posted January 15, 2007 06:28 PM
Perfect time to call. But if it were me I would vote against sitting there for 20 minutes freezing before you started calling. Quietly hustle in, sit down and call. And after that just realize that not all stands are successful so there is power in numbers. I would have hustled around and tried to make 5 or ten stands before 10 am and hoped that a couple of them would work. I love that first stand as soon as it is light enough to barely see, but I like it better if something shows. If nothing does keep going!
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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
FoxPro Field Staff Member
Posts: 1069 | From: Wyoming | Registered: May 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted January 15, 2007 06:49 PM
Yeah, what Cal says, but I owuld also, nix the "series" stuff. Once you hit the go button, let it scream, without the stopping and starting, get them coming hot, and stay that way, without the stutter stop and go.
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 15, 2007 09:25 PM
Yes, you are doing something wrong, but if you listen to these guys they will get you headed in the right direction.
As Cal says, there is no need to wait that long before starting your caller. Some people like to wait a couple minutes, rarely 5, but twenty, is wasting daylight.
Also, as Vic mentioned, there is no need to start and stop your caller. Let it run the whole time you are on stand.
It is my opinion that a stand need not be longer than twenty minutes, total. I personally prefer twelve minutes, and that's another thing that Cal was trying to tell you. Forty-five minutes on one stand is like wasting three or four stands. It's a numbers game. The more stands you make, the more animals you will call and the more shot opportunities you will have.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Rich Higgins
unknown comic
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posted January 16, 2007 07:23 AM
Do you have permission to hunt additional land?
You can't make 20 10 minute stands on one or two small farms. In missouri 45 minute stands were the norm. Sometimes longer. It was rare for a coyote to show up in less than twenty minutes and I remember taking several past the one hour mark.
If your available calling land is restricted and the coyotes are not eager to respond quickly then you must spend the time neccessary to seduce the coyotes that you CAN call to.
You may want to consider experimenting with different sounds, volumes, and presentations on the same stands if you are confined to small areas and learn for yourself what works for you in your area with your coyotes at this particular time. I used to spend most of a morning on only 40 acre farms. I could get three stands in from three different angle/positions and I remember coyotes coming in on the last stand.
Lance Homman made something like 200 plus stands in Kansas without taking a coyote a couple of years ago. That is enough to discourage all but the most diehard.
Good luck.
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Crow Woman
Knows what it's all about
Member # 157
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posted January 16, 2007 08:04 AM
FWIW Higgins tactics are more on the guideline that I follow back here in Pennsylvania. I use a huge variaty of differant animal sounds. I try and find out what the coyotes main animal that they feed off of is and focus on that sound for whatever area I'm hunting. My style does take for a longer stand time unlike Cal, Vic's and Leonards, but it is what works for me in my area.
Have patience and you will find what works for you in your area.
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Sheri L Baity
Lord, Please give me peace, because if you give me strength, I might beat someone to death!
Posts: 720 | From: Covington | Registered: Mar 2003
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted January 16, 2007 08:45 AM
FWIW, the area I call most of the time is as much like Kansas as you can get, well, without going to Kansas.
I was taught to call intermittent. I always called intermittent. I have watched coyotes come from very long distance and its amazing how much adjusting volume can make a difference in the way they come and you can watch their reactions and know when to do what with the volume.
I started going to AZ a few times a year, a few years ago. Everyone I have hunted with out there, with the exception of Blaine Eddy, calls non stop. Blaine pretty much calls the same way I do, probably less. I came back and tried letting it run here as well. I have had success both ways. It all seems to depend on the mood of the coyote. And the terrain. In AZ it seemed to me that calling non stop was the way to go, til I hunted with Blaine and we had success with pauses.
I seem to evolve a little more each year. I know Im far from having it all figgered out because I seem to try different things and change my mind quite a bit. It seems here I have more success intermittent calling when I can see a distance. If Im calling heavy cover, I seem to have better luck lettin it run. And, like I said, its an advantage when you can see em coming. Its amazing to me how much small changes in volume and sometimes turning it off can make a difference in the way they come in.
I may have confused you more, but like I said, it seems every coyote I call something different happens and I end up changing something just a little.
As far as blank stands go. Get used to it. It can be very aggrivating. Ask my son. He goes with me when he can and we have done pretty well at times. But he remarked one day that alot of times, we will make 10 stands with nothing. He will come home from school the next day and I will have 2 or 3 in the back of the truck, sometimes just off 3 or 4 stands. Just the way it goes. Go figger.
Good luck.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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UTcaller
NEVADA NIGHT FIGHTER
Member # 8
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posted January 16, 2007 08:47 AM
Man I'm sure glad I live in the west.There is no way I could stay 45 minutes on a stand calling coyotes.I wouldn't have the patience.lol I have done it for bobcats but only for about 30 minutes,and that's probably why I don't get alot of cats while calling.I'm with Leonard,and Cal 15-20 minutes is max for me.I like to get in 10 stands between daylight and around eleven in the morning.Good Hunting Chad
Posts: 1708 | From: Utah | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 16, 2007 10:51 AM
KeeRyst! Do we have to customize every reply, these days?
I agree with Chad. Glad I live in coyote country. I doubt that I could keep my eyes open for 20+45 minutes, all the time operating, pausing and screwing with the volume? That's another subject we need to evaluate, one of these days.
Generally, I think messing with the sound produces results, allright....negative results.
If I wanted to sit against a tree and commune with Nature for an hour, I'd take up deer hunting.
Good hunting. LB
PS now, we have this man thouroughly confused.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted January 16, 2007 11:13 AM
I normally dont stay much over 15 minutes on stand. Unless I have walked a long way in, my next place to hunt is a long drive or I see one coming and Im messin with him.....
Cmon Leonard. When was the last time a subject was ever answered in just one or two paragraphs? You know this crew, this has potential for 10+ pages. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Rich
2,000th post PAKMAN
Member # 112
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posted January 16, 2007 11:50 AM
"Generally, I think messing with the sound produces results, allright....negative results."
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I can go along with that line of thinking. I don't like to change the prey distress sound too many times on same stand, because my coyotes are already too smart. No sense in me showing them my complete sound library on one stand. In the last several years, I have come to understand how pausing the screams can help. I believe this is mostly true in calling thick cover. I can also see the 30 minute plus advantage when calling limited access country.
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If you call the coyotes in close, you won't NEED a high dollar range finder.
Posts: 2854 | From: Iowa | Registered: Feb 2003
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Crow Woman
Knows what it's all about
Member # 157
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posted January 16, 2007 12:33 PM
Awww... Confusion says Patience, or is that Confucius... I'm confused
Guess I'll go commune with the dead... a dead coyote preferably ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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Sheri L Baity
Lord, Please give me peace, because if you give me strength, I might beat someone to death!
Posts: 720 | From: Covington | Registered: Mar 2003
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted January 16, 2007 12:47 PM
I hand call so I will call with pauses and changes of sound. I normally think that if something hasn't came in to your call by 15 minutes it’s probably time to move on but will tend to stay till that 20 minute mark if I am not in a hurry. However on my Killer Call's first time out in December Nick and I were hunting in 15 mph winds with occasional gusts of 20 we called in 6-8 coyotes all of them coming in after 15 minutes. I usually think that with that kind of wind the sound is not going to travel as far thus your calling to closer coyotes and the response time should be quicker. By the way all of those coyotes were running to the call at or past the 15 minute mark.
But to answer the original question sounds like you found a good spot but now you need to find 10 more spots that look similar and play the odds. The more stands you get in a day of calling the greater your chances of seeing lots of coyotes.
[ January 16, 2007, 01:46 PM: Message edited by: JeremyKS ]
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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Melvin
Knows what it's all about
Member # 634
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posted January 16, 2007 01:06 PM
I have spent as much as an hour on a stand and have been known to have spent longer.I enjoy watching bobcats,even though,i usually don't have a tag or there out of season.As far as coyotes,i don't recall any that took over 15 minuites to come in.When i call,i may use two different sounds,but when i switch sounds,the second sound will be very close to the first.For instance,i may go from high pitch puppy whimpers for a while and then switch right over to high pitch cottontail.I don't change the calling sequence,i just change the animal distress,without a whole lot of difference in the pitch.I don't know why,but this has worked better for me than any other combination of sounds.
Posts: 661 | From: PA. | Registered: Apr 2005
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BigO
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1062
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posted January 16, 2007 01:44 PM
Thanks for the advice, I'll change some stuff and see if it works.
Posts: 64 | From: reno co. ks. | Registered: Dec 2006
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted January 16, 2007 04:22 PM
BigO,
We could write a book on this shit, but it probably wouldn't do much good until someone teaches the coyotes to read. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Don't be afraid to experiment, and try to stay out of ruts. Each coyote is it's own individual.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Wiley E
Knows what it's all about
Member # 108
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posted January 16, 2007 05:53 PM
Big O,
The first variable you have to eliminate is whether the coyotes are there or not. You may not be doing anything wrong but you can't know that unless you know that there is coyotes there and they are simply not responding. I seldom call without locating the coyotes first.
Go into the area the night before and listen to them howl about the time the yard lights are coming on. No, they don't howl in every situation but when they do, at least you know what you are dealing with.
There is no need to change your tune if you don't have an audience. At least look for fresh tracks and scat.
~SH~
[ January 16, 2007, 05:55 PM: Message edited by: Wiley E ]
Posts: 853 | From: Kadoka, S.D | Registered: Feb 2003
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Greenside
seems to know what he is talking about
Member # 10
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posted January 17, 2007 07:06 AM
quote:
I sat there for about twenty minutes (freezing) before I began calling. As soon as it got light enough for me to see, I started calling.
How do you know that you weren't busted walking in while it was still dark? Maybe the coyote was out in the middle of the hay where you parked your truck behind the bales. A half mile walk in the dark gives a coyote lots of chances to spot you and you wouldn't even know he was there.
Maybe a coyote was in the bottom when you walked in but in the twenty minutes you gave him he might have moved a mile or two away just in his normal travel routine of heading home?
quote:
But to answer the original question sounds like you found a good spot but now you need to find 10 more spots that look similar and play the odds
That's good advice. Good stands have common characteristics. And there's problaby another one just down the road, or with in 5-10 miles, that is very similar to the one you just walked out of with that coyote.
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted January 17, 2007 08:15 AM
I don't think a blank stand means you did anything wrong. I didn't see that you did anything wrong. You got there early, got in under the cover of darkness, waited for the sun to rise enough you could see an approaching coyote (which happened to be 20 minutes), and then you began to call.
In regards to Wiley's comment, knowing if the coyotes are there or not before calling, are the calf and deer being eaten on, or been eaten? If not and the carcasses are pretty much untouched that might be an indication it's not a good spot. Last late winter/early spring an old cow died on a farm I call. It sat nearly untouched for 2 weeks. After that I stopped checking, concentrating my time on other farms. I killed 2 coyotes off that farm this past November. Sometimes they are there, sometimes they are not, it's very beneficial to know which it is.
And you didn't mention what type of calling you used. If I'm calling exclusively with distress calls I'll stay on stand 20 minutes, maybe 25, before picking up and moving on. The last 10 minutes or so is just silence, and then doing some final glassing before I get up. Most of my coyotes have come in the first 10 minutes.
If I use coyote vocals on the stand I stay on stand longer, atleast 30 if not 45. They just seem to slow down. I've had many come in around 30 minutes, a majority of those late ones came in after I was done calling and was just sitting in silence.
So if you used distress only or added coyote vocals that might make a difference on how long you want to stay on stand.
However I sometimes treat the first stand of the day different. If I'm on a known coyote travel corridor between hunting and bedding areas I'll nustle in and call longer, maybe an hour or more (then I have to get up because my legs are numb...). After 15 minutes of distress calling I know if a coyote was in ear shot of my call and wanted to respond, and after that I'm calling to coyotes walking along the travel corridor after a night of hunting. As the coyotes walk into my sound area they might respond and approach, so a coyote could show up at any time.
Last spring turkey season I setup for turkey near one of my favorite first light calling stands. An hour after first light I saw Mr Coyote coming along the route many before him had come. He heard my turkey calling and came to investigate, saw the decoys, was working into the #4 turkey load range when my partner saw him and squaked on his turkey call to scare the coyote away....
Anyway, If you have a really good corridor, one that has coyotes walk it nearly every day, you could call there a couple hours. Some will think your crazy, bring up "diminishing returns" for the time put in and the coyotes called, but in my area I can call 3, maybe 4, farms between first light and coyote bed time and the likelyhood of calling before the coyote passed through my sound area or called after he left it is pretty high. If I call one spot along a good corridor from first light to mid morning (mid morning for me being 10am in Nov, 8am in Jan, after the coyotes have been "roughed up" by deer hunters in December) I have a good likelyhood that a coyote will hear my calls that morning and don't have the driving, walking, and getting busted getting into calling position.
But like Leonard, if I wanted to sit in the same place all morning I'd be deer hunting. I have a hard enough time sitting in one spot in the spring turkey season, but it's easier in a blind in a lawn chair sipping a drink while hitting the box call every so often.
Good ways of finding corridors is looking for tracks in the snow, talking to farmers who have cattle and see coyote movement while doing their chores, school bus drivers, etc.
I've had good results this year dividing my farms into two catagories, corridor and bedding farms, and calling the corridors at first light to mid morning and the bedding farms mid-morning to the end of the day. No point in calling a bedroom when the coyote is out eating breakfast, and vise versa, LOL.
edit: I also avoid parking my truck anywhere but where the farmer would normally park his truck, to avoid putting the coyote on alert. So I usually park at the farmhouse or at a barn or out building. Especially on a cool morning sound travels very well, and no matter how quiet you are all the coyotes withen a mile probably heard you truck pull in and stop. A wary coyote will likely pick up on that and be on alert, it's not part of his typical day. A vehicle operating at the farmhouse, door closing, etc, is not untypical for the coyote therefor he's not put on alert by it. Means more walking often times, but in my checkerboard state it's not unmanagible. Your area might not be condusive to this.
Moral being, in everything you do you want to be stay withen a coyote's normal mode of operation, being outside of it will possibly put him on alert.
later,
scruffy
[ January 17, 2007, 08:48 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 17, 2007 09:55 AM
That's a good post, Scruffy. I can agree with much of what you said.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32368 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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sdyote
Knows what it's all about
Member # 814
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posted January 17, 2007 10:27 AM
Wiley E,
Do you ever do any locating pre-dawn before you start calling an area or is that not as effective as locating in the evening?
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted January 17, 2007 12:52 PM
A couple years ago after a deer hunt, we had 6 carcasses and scraps to get rid of. I was gonna be smart and took them out to my favorite coyote area and strategicly placed them where I could pop over a ridge a hundred yards out the next morning. I did and sit there a while, nothing. Walked down and they were scattered over a quarter mile down the drainage. Damned things got em quick.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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BigO
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1062
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posted January 17, 2007 05:58 PM
I don't have a locator or howler. In fact I have a couple mouth calls. The Ki-Yi and a cheaper one that was given to me. I have only used distress calls, mainly cotton tail. I have tried jack rabbit and turkey. This area is crawling with turkeys. Jack rabbits are starting to make a come back but not quite plentifull yet.
I currently have over 1000 acres of what i would consider prime hunting ground. Everyone I've talked to (farmers) tell me they hear coyotes evry night. Plus I have seen the tracks and scat every where I go. Thats kinda why I figured I was doing something wrong. Lotta signs, no coyotes.
As for the carcasses in the creek. All but one of the deer are stripped almost to the bone. The other looks like who ever put it there took only the back straps, but it has been eatten on. The calf however hasn't been touched and has been there since November.
I'll pick up a howler. I'm off this Sunday, I'll go back out. I'll try the numbers game. I'll let the call run instead of the starting and stopping.
Thanks for the info. I'll let ya know if it all worked for me.
The Big "O"
Posts: 64 | From: reno co. ks. | Registered: Dec 2006
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BigO
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1062
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posted January 17, 2007 05:59 PM
I just realized I forgot to mention I use an E-caller.
Posts: 64 | From: reno co. ks. | Registered: Dec 2006
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scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
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posted January 18, 2007 07:47 AM
I'll throw one more point out.
When we get a blank stand or a series of blank stands it seems to be in our nature to second guess our calling.
Yet we all admit that we only see a percentage of the coyotes we call in (unless the area is very open and devoid of approach cover).
There may be nothing wrong with your calling, you might be calling in coyotes, alot of coyotes possibly. Yet the wary critters aren't walking out into the open where you can see them.
IMHO the stand location, setup, and working the wind is more important than calling. If I had a choice of being a champion caller and a average stand selector or a champion stand selector and average caller I'd choose the latter. If you call up a bunch of coyotes but only see 1 in 10 you have an opportunity to kill 1 and you've possibly educated up to 9, and if you miss, 10. If you call up 5 coyotes and see 3 of them you can kill 3, could educate 2, and if you miss 5.
So IMHO knowing where to call from, using the cover to break up your outline, sitting in the shadow, moving minimally, using the wind to direct the coyotes movement out into the open, using approach cover to funnel the coyote infront of your barrel and a possibly most importantly to seeing the coyotes you call, sitting where you can see through breaks in the approach cover so you can see an approaching (or leaving) coyote responding to your calls.
When we select calling spots where a coyote can sneak in and then sneak out without us seeing them, that's when we do more educating than killing, IMHO.
If that coyote can get downwind without us seeing him, we don't have a prayer.
I seem to struggle with always focusing calling but I have to keep reminding myself, if I want to kill more coyotes I need to see more and educate less, that doesn't mean better calling, that means better stand selection, using the wind to my advantage and not the coyotes, and finding spots where a coyote can't approach me without exposing himself hopefully multiple times briefly so I can see that he's there. Once you see a coyote you can start working him with squeaks, you know when you can move and can't, you can get your gun positioned, etc.
Just my couple of cents.
later,
scruffy
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Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
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