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Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on December 30, 2006, 09:27 AM:
When a coyote comes in from downwind do you think it relates the distress sounds AND human scent to something to eat? I have in past years tended to hunt into the wind, and give away the downwind side when I'm hunting solo because I can't watch 360. I now think giving away the downwind side is a real mistake. Animals that come from that direction are dangerous.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2006, 10:07 AM:
Yeah, I suppose some of them could be?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 30, 2006, 01:57 PM:
I don't necessarily think that they relate the two as anything but food and occasionally danger, but I do agree that giving away the downwind as your default position is a mistake. After all, if there is one thing most of us can agree to here, it's that coyotes have the innate ability to get downwind of you. If you know that they're likely to go there, and it's the only variable in their behavior that you can predect and anticipate with some certainty, why ignore it rather than exploiting it to your advantage?
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on December 30, 2006, 05:47 PM:
I agree with Cdog, since they like to get downwind, why not set up so that you can see downwind. They will likely end up there anyways, so why not watch there?
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 30, 2006, 07:03 PM:
Yep, coyotes will try to get downwind where they can get a whiff of ya. Not always of course, but MOST of the time they will.
Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on December 31, 2006, 05:01 AM:
I think a coyote coming in from downwind has evil intent. Has anyone you know been attacked while calling and bitten by a coyote?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on December 31, 2006, 05:05 AM:
I've never had cause to be concerned about a coyote coming from any direction. They're simply not that confrontational, especially when they realize who or what you are. Pure cowardice.
On the other hand, coons are a hoot. From the moment they hear that caller going, they have one thing on their mind: kick your ass. Fire for effect.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on December 31, 2006, 06:28 AM:
I had one dive into the bush and hit my back once, scared the shit out of both of us. I've had them jump over my legs, and run up and stand beside me looking at the caller.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 31, 2006, 07:33 AM:
took some kids out and set them behind some bushes so thier movement wouldnt be detected and about 5 mins in Im looking out at the meadow in front of me the kids were back and to right. they sat and obsereved as two coyotes stood behind me watching me. a little creepy but i dont feel they were a threat. I often wonder how many critters see me that I never see.Lions are about the only thing in these parts that cause me concern.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 31, 2006, 08:04 AM:
The lion I called, came directly in from downwind.
Had my brother not seen it, and scared it away, I believe I'd have been doomed.
I give the downwind much respect, animals that come from that direction really are dangerous.
And I look there for opportunity too. Around here it's easy for a predator to end up downwind, and since I know that's part of (some of) thier plans, we make it part of our plans.
Hunting alone, I prefer a crosswind, so I can watch my side, and not leave my back un-guarded.
Krusty 
Posted by tooslow (Member # 1063) on December 31, 2006, 08:56 AM:
depends on the velocity of the wind, have you ever been sighting in your rifle while observing wind direction in your emediate area only to see a different direction of the flag or ribbon only a 100yds away--wind is not always predictable.
What you think is downwind may not be the case.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 31, 2006, 08:56 AM:
I wonder what would cause folks to believe a predator to be more dangerous when it comes in from down-wind side?
Posted by Dusty Hunter (Member # 1031) on December 31, 2006, 09:00 AM:
Good question. Last week, I was downwind of my caller and heard a coyote sneak up right along side me about three feet away adjacent to the bush I was using for cover. I didn't move at all. I was hoping he would not catch my scent and pop out in front of me, but !@%$#&* it didn't happen. Like the Teminator says "I'll be back". ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2006, 09:52 AM:
I'm getting the feeling that Gary has something specific on his mind. Normally, a coyote goes downwind, gets your scent, and runs off. I have heard that misting can delay this behavior, but it is not common that the animal will approach the hunter, or the source of the sound...coming from downwind.
Cats are a totally different situation, since they only wind up downwind by accident, in almost all cases. A lion sneaking up on you from downwind is your own fault, if you don't have sense enough to keep an eye on that direction. Not because of the lion, but because there are so many opportunities to shoot a coyote that sneaks in, unseen, downwind, from another direction.
Now, I don't want to disagree with what "tooslow" said, but he knows very well that watching "mist" drift downwind gives as good a clue as to exactly where the "downwind" is, much like wind flags at the range, only better....especially at night.
It would require a very bold coyote to approach a hunter from downwind, and his intent would not (probably) be to attack a human?
I recall a newspaper article that said a pair of coyotes tried to pull a rider from a horse, in Orange County, I believe? But, there are many that will tell you that deer and other big game cannot distinguish a rider, and consider what they are looking at to be a funny shaped horse. This fits very well with Rich Higgins and Tyler's description of doing the "ugly cow" and walking in plain view, in front of a coyote, who, in turn, does not distinguish the separate forms of the two people bent over, under a poncho; from range cattle.
But, anyway. What's the story, Nahuatl?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 31, 2006, 01:46 PM:
"Has anyone you know been attacked while calling and bitten by a coyote?"
Yes. But, I'm sure it was mistaken identity. Really don't know whether that one came from downwind or not. I really do not believe that it had identified a human before biting though.
- DAA
Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on January 01, 2007, 06:44 AM:
I think we need WileyE and Ed Sceery here for this discussion! hehehe
Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on January 01, 2007, 07:44 AM:
Leonard was right. There is a punchline to this thread for sure.
I've written up a longer version of the events of last Thursday for the club's newsletter, but here's the short version.
While hunting into the wind, standing up full height (I'm 6' 3"), my back against a tree, I was panning my vision right into a cactus forest and then left across and up a wash while my Bandit caller was playing a goat bleat about from the ground 15 yards in front of me. At the extreme left of my turn, in the very left corner of my eye, I caught a flash fur just as a coyote came in behind me from directly downwind, and attacked. It leaped straight for my throat. I raised my left arm at the last possible instant defensively and as I looked down its throat, the fangs closed on my tricep, just missing my neck. We were nose to nose. The weight of the flying coyote swung us both around, and thanks apparently to three tough layers of clothing, it never got a good grip, slipped off, and fell into the wash. I still had my shotgun gripped in my right hand. I raised and fired both barrels.
I hustled back to the truck and stripped to the waist. Though the teeth never made it through the material of my shirt or underclothes, I was left with four puncture wounds and some long scratches. I soaked the wound for 15 minutes in a veterinary sterilant I carry in the truck, which I learned only later was the exact right thing to do for both the bite and possibly rabies. I actually hunted the rest of the day before returning home to figure out what to do next.
I've learned a few other things about animal bites and rabies in the last few days. LA County Health, CA Department of Health Services, and Lancaster Animal Control are to be thanked for their help and information, and they were able to run preliminary tests on the coyote before the long holiday weekend. Negative and No rabies. Even though the coyote never actually punctured the shirt, rabies is saliva borne, so if it had been rabid, the vaccine is reccommended.
I've got bruises around the bite mark today from being bitten so hard and it's still sore.
The coyote was a two-year old female and otherwise, in good health, except for her stopping two rounds of #4 buckshot.
I've been out hunting several times since Thursday, but I'm setting up a little more crosswind, keeping a better eye on my flank, and probably paying better attention. It is my contention that the coyote that attacked heard the sound of a distressed goat and responded hungrily all the time smelling me and thinking of food. When it attacked, it was not afraid of me at all.
[ January 01, 2007, 07:45 AM: Message edited by: Nahuatl ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 01, 2007, 09:04 AM:
That's an amazing story, Gary! Almost (too) hard to believe? I checked, and it's January 1st, not April 1st.
I was attacked by a coyote, once, but I was chasing him in deep snow and he turned and charged me. He definitely would have bitten me if not for the empty shotgun I was swinging, which broke it, (by the way), and it belonged to Pat. I probably owe him a cheap shotgun, but I was damned glad I had it.
You need to submit your story to a magazine, but (unfortunately) these days, if it didn't happen with someone videotaping it, it didn't happen.
Good hunting. LB
Lame joke follows: at least you didn't go wth the tourniquet?
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on January 01, 2007, 12:50 PM:
Nahuatl - you are posting this for true?
With your ecaller 15 yards away, a coyote came in downwind and grabed you by the arm while you were standing up?
Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on January 01, 2007, 01:06 PM:
Gary,
I agree with Leonard. Great story and should be published. I'd get some good quality pictures of the wound to go with it and a few quotes from the doctor that looked at you.
By any chance did you get some pics of the coyote where it lay shot?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 01, 2007, 02:13 PM:
I've had coyotes jump on me four different times while calling. I was always sitting on the ground which placed them at my eye level and they were probably more shocked than I was. They never attempted to bite before they bailed.
I can't possibly imagine what would motivate a coyote to jump almost 6 feet off the ground at the throat of a tall man especially if the sounds were not originating from him. A puzzlement.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 01, 2007, 02:15 PM:
Tripp is right. Get photos and medical documentation and submit them to Ralph Lermayer. I'll bet he would run with them.
Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on January 02, 2007, 11:48 AM:
Rich, I figured there would be some similar experience out there somewhere. I've been runover twice before myself. After checking around here and there, I'm beginning to think this is a rather unique occurance because I was not hand calling and I was standing full-height. And replaying it over and over in my mind, the coyote leapt straight for my throat. I'm relatively convinced the coyote came in on my smell. It was a blatant attack.
If you've seen my posts, you know I always take pictures. As for having one of the coyote where it lay, sorry. I hustled back to the truck dragging everything with me as quick as possible to examine the damage and treat the wound with benzalkonium chloride. And I also figured some over-eager contract doctor at urgent care would be quick to pull the trigger with rabies post-exposure phophylaxis. I wasn't eager to submit to that kind of treatment without consulting some real experts, who I eventually found at County Health, Health Services, and Animal Control, first. They deal with dog bites on a regular basis and quarantine or test the brains of offending animals routinely. Postponing a knee-jerk trip to the doctor and immediate treatment 24-hours was actually the prudent thing to do and it gave DHS the time they needed to run the preliminary tests. There's even a flow sheet for rabies treatment, and when you get to step #5, the chart says no rabies - no treatment. I hate going to the doctor anyway. Treatment now consists of 5 high-potency shots in the arm over a period of a month. I even got to talk to someone who had the shots recently at Animal Control after a Chihuahua attack.
I think I'll pass on the publication exposure too. I'm a private person, and Leonard's BB is the only place you'll see this posted past the club's newsletter. I think I'd like to remind all of you who hunt a lot for coyotes to be careful out there and leave it at that.
Don J, my club's hunts chairman, and I just spent New Year's eve and day hunting here in So Cal. He got to check out the marks on my arm first hand and that's about all the witnessing I can stand. He was the one to remark on all the bruising which appeared only later. We even hunted the same road and he saw where it all occurred. I took this picture the evening of the attack.
And after taking care of my arm back at the truck, I snapped this one of the bitch that bit me.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on January 02, 2007, 12:27 PM:
glad you are alright......never even thought about a coyote attacking.....I have had bobcats get real close, under 10 steps, looking me over and they had thier little tail just ah-twiching...Regards Kelly
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on January 02, 2007, 04:47 PM:
That right there was one hungry coyote, and apparently dumb too!!
On two occasions I've shot/shot at coyotes that were coming so hard and close that I'm sure if I didn't pull the trigger when I did, they were going to be in/on my lap, although I've never worried about one actually taking a bite once it realized what it was actually landing on!
And to think that coyote you shot actually jumped up to bite and the distress sound was no where near the intended target?
Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on January 02, 2007, 09:37 PM:
HOLY CRAP! Thats weird!!
ya, I gotten rabies shots before, 4 in the arm and 4 in the ass. NOT fun!!!
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 03, 2007, 05:51 AM:
Nahuatl,
First of all, I want to say that I do not doubt your experience even one little bit. I have read stories of coyote attacks before, but yours is unique. I wonder if you would mind telling us how far you were from a city when this took place? My thoughts are that that city coyotes like those that Rich Higgins plays with, would be more likely to act vicious toward humans.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 03, 2007, 08:47 AM:
I think, more than that, we need grid coordinates.
Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on January 05, 2007, 09:25 PM:
Nahuatl, that is an amazing story. You are lucky on several counts, and also quick witted and quick reflexed enough to do the right thing.
Thanks for telling us. I have been thinking that I should set up more carefully to protect my back, and you just confirmed it big time.
As to hunting downwind, for canines, bears and deer, I usually give away everything except the downwind. Since I usually hunt alone, which also inclines me not to try to see 360, I try to sit or stand against something to protect my back, as you did with the tree.
I started calling with a bow. In order to get close shots, I learned to set up so that nearly all of my shots at coyotes are downwind. Most of them are also very close range. I had one within touching distance, many within 10 feet. I've used hand calls almost exclusively until very recently.
Diffrn't styles on our set ups and obviously they both work.
Thanks for the info! FWIW, that was excellent shooting under stress to get that critter!
Posted by stevecriner (Member # 892) on January 09, 2007, 05:52 PM:
Gary,
I would like to say first of all that i dont think your a liar, but i would like to give a scenario that might of actually happened and it scared you so bad you forgot. Seriously though i have an idea thats worth listening too that i thought up while i was in montana this last weekend.(just for fun) Here it goes.
Gary was hunting in the wind and the thick cover like he always does. Coyote comes in streaking by right to left and Gary unloads both barrels like ive seen him do. Coyote goes down.
Gary walks over to the coyote wich is DRT (he thinks) on its right with his head facing to his left.(now here it gets good so paint a picture)
Gary reaches down with his left hand and the over under in his right hand wich he is dominant with. He bends down grabs the hind left leg wich triggers a reaction from the less dispatched coyote. Kicking off with his right leg and pulling with his left leg he snaps back and bites Gary in the left upper arm.( as seen in fig.1)
Gary jumps back ,coyote still hanging from his arm.(this is how the coyote got to the height of subject in said story) Without much life left the coyote lets Gary go and dies a few feet later. Wich is shown in fig.2.
Thats about as close to CSI ill get so it was all in fun Gary. Stay tough you coyote hunter.
steve
edit: to get story straight
[ January 09, 2007, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: stevecriner ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on January 09, 2007, 06:57 PM:
Gary, I sent a link to this thread to Dr Jaeger.
Here is his reply.
Rich,
Season’s greetings. The account of the coyote attach was unusual to say the least. I have never heard of anything like it. It reminds me of a big-game hunter I knew in Ethiopia whose client wounded a lion one evening. They returned to their camp planning to search for it the next day, but it followed them back and jumped the hunter shortly after he had emerged from his tent in the morning. Fortunately it was driven off before doing irreparable damage. It would have been interesting to necropsy the coyote.
Regarding coyotes approaching from down wind, we have data showing radio-collared alphas responding to our calls by circling down wind before approaching. I assumed that this was common practice. We also have radio-tracking data with one lion showing that on three different occasions it was within several yards of a student that happened to check the frequency of it’s radio-collar. The student never saw it because of the vegetation. She was terrified the first time but remained calm. It was a 110 lb female cat that never showed itself. It made us realize that lions probably track human presence without our ever knowing (and without attacking).
Regards’
Mike
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on January 09, 2007, 09:37 PM:
quote:
It made us realize that lions probably track human presence without our ever knowing (and without attacking).
A few months ago, I was talking with a Special Agent for the Border Patrol. He drives the pick up with the big FLIR camera on the telescoping pole. I made the comment to him that the camera would be great for night hunting coyotes and we got to talking about animals that he has watched with it.
His last assignment before coming to Douglas, was in the Desert between Yuma and San Diego. He said while it was not a nightly occurrence, it was not uncommon for him to be directing Agents in to a hidden group of immigrants, to pick up a lion stalking the Agents. He said the lions would usually follow about 100 yards behind the Agents in the dark, and were never seen, except by the FLIR.
Cats love to stalk, The truest statement about cats would have to be "Curiosity killed the cat" Just ask any good cat trapper. Canines act more by sudden impulse. They don't have to watch something for a long time before committing. They come full steam ahead, or go full steam in retreat.
I have no trouble imagining a coyote rushing in to the call, seeing a bit of movement in the bush and mistaking it for a bird of prey, then deciding at the last second to add it to the menu. By the time it realized its mistake, it was in fight or flight mode, and too committed to make a clean run.
A trapper in Massachusetts last week was reporting of a person being bitten in his State, he said it was the fifth person bitten in the State in 2006. I think that the more human interaction we see with these animals, be it more predator hunters in the field, or more coyotes in urban environments, the more of these incidents we are going to hear of.
I'm just glad that Gary wasn't seriously injured.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on January 10, 2007, 04:23 AM:
Fist off, Gary, glad to hear the injuries were minimal. Could have been much worse.
Tim, you said, " I think that the more human interaction we see with these animals, be it more predator hunters in the field, or more coyotes in urban environments, the more of these incidents we are going to hear of."
Do you think this projected increase will come from an increasing familiarity and boldness on the part of coyotes, or just a matter of crunching the numbers? More people in the field equals more interactions whereas the percentage of hunters to hunters being mistaken for prey remains relatively stable. The former would add an interesting new dimension to predator hunting; leveling the playing field so both predators are hunting the hunters. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on January 10, 2007, 07:30 PM:
This season I've been hunting a lot in areas that are being developed and turned into housing, marginal land just outside the cities' limits where Joshua Tree / Creosote Bush forest is giving way to small ranchos. Most of the better hunting spots around here are unposted private properties near housing. This particular spot is within a mile of a half-dozen homes and surrounded by asphalt roads. These coyotes live all around inhabited dwellings. Remember, I live near LA.
Even if landowners are not feeding these critters directly (though I wouldn't be surprised if they were), in this country, there's always a garbage pile, animal feed, gardens, pets, and livestock, where human scent comingles with all these food sources. I'm guilty of it too when I throw garbage into my own backyard. It's probably even worse when there are dead farm animals. We've all hunted over the dead pit. Coyotes may be wary of human scent here, but they're used to it, and to count on them running from it every time would be a mistake.
I was back hunting in the same spot the attack occured yesterday and shot a 2yo male about a mile south of the location. It too approached from downwind but unlike the other coyote, after getting into my scent, was beating a hasty retreat when he got a load of BB's. I've shot a lot of coyotes this season and spent some really long hours in the field hunting. The more time I spend hunting, the more diverse the experiences. Every hunt is different.
All of us who hunt a lot have had a wounded animal or two attempt to bite them on approach. It's happened to me many times and I never touch one anymore that hasn't been poked in the eye with the muzzle of a loaded gun. But unlike Steve's fictional scenario, this attack was for real. I was very lucky to escape and not have been bitten on the neck or face. I never lost my cool. A better arm block might have even saved me from the bite I took. I held on to the shotgun. I closed the deal and killed the coyote after the attack. The fact that I had the dead carcass saved me from taking the rabies shots.
You say this attack was unusual? I agree. But one of the many criteria for rabies treatment is whether the attack was unprovoked. Unprovoked attacks are a sign of rabies. In my case I had to say no to that question. I was in prime coyote territory playing a really good distressed kid goat bleat, and the coyote that responded did so with a meal on its mind. It struck at the movement of my rotating head. When the Vet asked, I said of course I provoked the attack - I was hunting coyotes.
Hunting solo and sitting down on a stand is no longer an option.
Posted by Dsmith7136 (Member # 732) on January 10, 2007, 08:43 PM:
This has been an interesting and informative thread. From now on, the boys and I will carry a "bite kit" (a big bottle of antiseptic) with us when we call critters.
A bit off topic, Nahuatl - what load do you use in your shotty gun for coyotes? The last time I killed coyotes with a shot gun was years ago, and I think I was shooting copper-plated BBs in a 2-3/4 inch hull. An ounce and an eigth maybe? I'm not sure. It certainly wasn't anything like the potent 3, 3-1/2 inch loads of Dead Coyote or #4 buck a lot of guys use today but it was pretty effective at 40 yards and under.
Dennis
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on January 11, 2007, 03:29 AM:
Interesting story & discussion.
Many yrs ago, late January. I was hunting with a friend. It was around -20 degrees. Spotted a Red balled-up around 1/2 mile out. I stalked in.
I was useing a 12ga single shot with #4buck. I got to within 30yrds or so, then let him have it. He rolled, the shot put his hind end out of business.
The Red took off on his front legs, he was heading for a den hole. I quickly took off my glove[another shell stuck in there]. Shell dropped in the snow.
I quickly broke down the barrel & commenced to run him down[pelt were worth big money back then]. I'm gaining on him, closing the gap.
When I'm around 3' behind him. I swing back my barrel to whack him upside the head, as I'm running. Well, he'd had enough. He stopped right then, whips around mouth wide open & lunges for my leg.
A quick step to the side as we pass each other. I nailed him on the side of his head, game over.
Useing dogs, [most]Reds when they are about to die. When they get in one last bite. Won't let go, no matter how bad their getting crunched on by a dog. I call that a death grip.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on January 11, 2007, 06:50 AM:
Nahuat,
I believe that the city dwelling coyotes lose much of their fear of humans because they don't get shot at in town. I see it as the same thing that causes cougars to kill hikers in those parks out west. I am glad that you didn't have to go through those dang rabies shots. That would really suck. Thanks for sharing your story.
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on January 11, 2007, 10:53 AM:
I have had coyotes at 2 ft from me laying prone on the ground and never been attacked. Coyotes are as individual as it gets, some in traps have jaws popping on approach, the majority lay doscil and others just go wild from the moment they see the truck or you.
I would bet hunting in close proximity to alot of humans have something to do with it, as our Mt Lions have lost all fear as well and will kill deer right in peoples lawns inside the city limits of 60,000+ people. They go on their decks and look into the basement and patio windows. This makes all wild critters much more dangerous, as the human scent fear is not there and natural reactions take place in the minds of these critters, when it is time to eat or defend itself.
I'm betting if one researched most coyote and lion attacks it would be in areas in close proximity to more people than less. Areas of less hunting pressure as well?
As far in giving up the downwind side, in my area you can watch the downwind side alot and setup with the terrain to see the approach from down wind without getting caught until they reach a certain point. I try not and let the coyotes reach that point, if they do the majority kick it into overdrive to escape once they smell you. The beauty of an e-caller and a remote that can range 100yrds or so.
I never want the coyotes approach to be downwind from my calling stand I want them to come into the wind then make that circle at the end, I try and position myself and the caller for this to happen,the majority of my coyotes fall to a 22-250 and I can get most in that 100 yrd or less range. Shot gunning here is strictly in the cedar breaks or thick creek bottoms.
I would also recommmend the pre exsposure rabies shots, as if you get bit and can't retrieve the animal a simple booster is all that is needed and less costly in the end.
Posted by Nahuatl (Member # 708) on January 12, 2007, 01:52 PM:
Home Depot ***** Zep Pine Cleaner for about $6. a gallon. The active ingredient is 1.9% benzyl and alkonium chlorides. The Merck Index lists this component as a veterinary wound wash, burn wash, and operating room sterilant. It kills both bacteria and viruses. I keep a squeeze bottle of the stuff in the pickup whenever I hunt and it's killed some nasty puss-filled infections for me many times. It sure is better than a trip to the doctor and a cycle of antibiotics. It should be in every first aid kit.
The best shotgun ammo for the money is Winchester WX12L4, 3.5" #4 buck @ ~1.25 per round. Dead Coyote and Hevi-shot are good too, but ~$3. Federal makes a good 3" BB lead 12ga and 3.5" lead BB 10ga. PC Ammunition will load custom lead ammo in almost any configuration for $45 per 25 + shipping.
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