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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 20, 2006, 09:04 AM:
*editorial*
You know, it seems to me there is something wrong with this PC world, when we are bending over backwards to cater to every bleeding heart liberal ACLU idiot what wants to prosecute GI's for mistakes within a context of the "Fog of War.
Now, we have these two soldiers that were found beheaded. I think this will lead to another round of (justifiably) trigger happy troops. That's what I'd do.
Then, as sure as night follows day, we will have more assholes calling for a troop pull out. More assholes concerned with terrorists welfare than American Servicemen. What kind of political philosophy cannot condemn brutal beheadings, but these same antiAmerican Americans scream torture when they read a bogus story about flushing the Koran down a toilet.
It's time to start revoking citizenships and sending these protesting assholes to France.
It's also time to take off the velvet gloves. War is war.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 20, 2006, 10:05 AM:
Leonard,
Although it is interesting to watch the news and see what is happening with the war, I believe that the news media should never be allowed in to military business while we are at war. It seems to me as though the news media does us more harm than good during these times of conflict.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 20, 2006, 10:41 AM:
Im with you LB.
I cant for the life of me figure out where the media, save FOX, gets their info. I have talked with many soldiers soon after getting back from Iraq and talk to some that are still there, via email. I get the same thing from every single one. Were doing very good things. The people as a whole love us and what we have done/doing. They are shocked and pissed the first time they turn on CNN. Just cant believe what they are seeing. I dont get it.
As far as some that eroding from wihtin, Im gettin pretty sick of that too. I know of several in particular that need to evacuate the country. They obviously are not happy here and need to go where they will be happier. One of which is my old buddy.
Im sick and friggin tired of the BS.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 20, 2006, 11:53 AM:
I had a bad feeling when i first heard about that kidnapping. I just knew the new guy was going to do something dramatic to draw attention to himself. Don't be surprised if a video of the beheadings comes to the surface soon.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 20, 2006, 12:35 PM:
I couldn't agree more Leonard.That's what gets me so pissed on the black board.Liberal thinking bastards.They really believe if we pull out of Iraq,then everything will return to normal(pre 9/11).Complete Idiot mentality if you ask me.The media and liberals are ready to crucify these soldiers before they even finish the investigation.But then the same S.O.B's will turn around and blame Bush and the War happy republicans for the two soldiers murdered and beheaded.Just retarded way of thinking from where I sit.Hunt those Al Qadea Bastards down and take care of business,Collateral damage or not. Bush said it along time ago.There exists an Axis of Evil (Iraq,Iran,and North Korea).And we're taking care of one of them and the other two are trying to get in the spotlite.But do you think the Liberals and the Bias media see's it.Hell no, and they won't until it's to late.That's what scares the hell out of me,getting a liberal Democrat back in the White house.FWIW Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 20, 2006, 01:44 PM:
Andy; you've been around long enough, to have encountered the kind of people that absolutely have to be the smartest person in the room at a party or whatever.
When your in the KHDs house, you have to remember; it's his party:)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 20, 2006, 01:55 PM:
oxymoron, dude. Andy can't forget, you can't forget, and I certainly never forgot. How can anyone forget that brilliance?
It's not so much how smart he is or how much he knows. It's like Reagan said; it's how much he knows that isn't so.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 20, 2006, 02:36 PM:
No, I havent forgot...
You know, this is really hard for me. Honestly. I have had alot of fun with JH. He has done some really nice things for me. I have enjoyed his company several times. He, and I guess you too Vic, created a place that I met some great people from all over the country (world?), via the board and rondys, that I would have never had the opportunity to meet otherwise. Made friends that I will most likely (hopefully) have from now on.
But, I am about at ropes end. JH has taken his hatred for George Bush and the Republican party so far that I just cannot stand it. I can live by his convictions when it comes to coyotes when in his house. Hell, I hold alot of the same convictions, dont impose them as hard as he does on others (not nearly as hard). But this political thing is out of control. Its to the point where there just arent any hunting related topics, other than a few pointed questions, anymore. Just one political statement after another. All about the same basic thing and all just hatred. No action or suggestions to make things better, just bitching and moaning. JH, and a couple of his liberal buddies are the culprits. Most of the arguments he makes arent even valid points. Bullshit topics with bullshit sources to back him up. Very sad.
You hardly ever see a post anymore by Harter or Shawn or Ken. Three of what I consider the "backbone" of the board. Not only knowlegable, but fun to talk to. I suspect some of it is due to the bullshit, off the wall politics. There are several others that have gone into lurk only mode for the same reasons. They have told me either by phone or email.
I argued with him about it for a long time out of my convictions and beliefs. And, I had some fun with it for a while. But Im about done. I cant stand for slamming our veterens that have and are fighting for our country. Laughing about people dying on 9/11 and hardships brought about by natural disasters, ect... (all of which are Bushs fault) These things are inexcusible, IMO.
Im not saying I wont ever go back. I really hope to go to more rondys as that is the only time I get to see some of these guys and that would really suck to never share a fire with them again. But I have enough stress in my life to put up with that bullshit anymore. Im taking a break, at the least. Hell, I might not have a choice after one of the kiss asses (yeah, there are a few, not as many as some believe, but a few) copies and pastes this to an email to JH in an attempt to piss him off at me while gettin some brownie points.
I dont hate John Henry, actually, just the opposite. When he is off the politics, hes a great person. Overbearing at times, but a great, big hearted person. But hes not off the politics hardly at all anymore. Its consumed him.
Anyway, I got enough work related stress right now, not to mention I am going to bury my grandfather Thursday. I dont need that shit, not at the moment.
Sorry for rambling on.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 20, 2006, 02:50 PM:
Andy,
I totally agree with what your concerns are.I feel the same way.I have no problem going toe to toe with JH whether it be politics,or shooting coyotes,but NO good is coming of it,he is so bitter against both the "Publicans" LOL and Bush that he is totally blinded by his outrage.I have decided to give it a rest over there myself.Good Hunting Chad
[ June 20, 2006, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 20, 2006, 03:05 PM:
Andy, sorry to hear of your loss.
But don't worry about JH canciling out anyone's votes. I happend to be in line behind a fellow named Peters at the last election, and I couldn't help but peek at the book when they signed him in.
The only two Petrowski's registered to vote are his parents, And JH's Dad doesnt' much care for liberals. I'd bet you lunch we don't have three registered by the next election.
So what's with this big Memorial day post that he wrote? Everyone keeps asking me about it, and I thought I had ready it. But that we the weekend I was really sick, then I wen't on the pain pills and I can't recall what it was about. ( And I don't care to give the SOB the time of day long enough to go and look it up myself. )
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 20, 2006, 03:31 PM:
Thanks Tim.
You got email.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 20, 2006, 03:44 PM:
Andy...ya just got to let it go,and be more like the "backbone" boys. They usually never get involved in the political discussion if you notice,and for good reason.
Harter did make possibly the finest,most sincere,reasoned post that board has,or will ever see, regarding the M-day discourse.
[ June 20, 2006, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Az-Hunter ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 20, 2006, 04:11 PM:
Sorry to hear that you lost your Grandfather, Andy.
And I sure hope your stress level comes down, a lot, soon. I know how it (stress) can just eat you up.
- DAA
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 20, 2006, 04:20 PM:
Thanks Dave. Seems alot has piled up lately. Im in a high stress line of work anyway, but its really been gettin to me lately.
My grandfather has been really sick for quite a while. It doesnt make it much easier though. Thanks for the thought.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 20, 2006, 05:34 PM:
Sorry to hear about your grandfather, Andy. You have my condolences. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 20, 2006, 05:48 PM:
My condolences too. Andy.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 20, 2006, 05:55 PM:
Thanks LB and Rich. Means alot.
Posted by JD (Member # 768) on June 20, 2006, 07:02 PM:
I enjoyed talkin` with you today buddy, life is hard to swallow somedays & I understand completely what stress is all about but to have a loved one pass on top of everything else just seems cruel, you`re in our thoughts & prayers. Other things in life seem to work themselves out eventually but take the time to grieve your loss, it`s good for the soul.
I`ll call you in a couple days.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 20, 2006, 07:28 PM:
Thanks a bundle JD. Means alot. Great talkin with you too. Your good people.
Posted by NASA (Member # 177) on June 20, 2006, 07:54 PM:
Andy, grandparents are special people. We continue to see them thru a childs eyes, no matter how old we grow. My condolences.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 20, 2006, 08:32 PM:
Andy,
I'm down to just my wife, kids, a brother and sister and their familes. My folks and grandparents are all gone, and I'm only 41. Never thought I'd be making all the big calls on my own with no one to ask for advice by this time in my life, but here I am.
My condolences to you, and just know that things do get smoother over time.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 20, 2006, 09:00 PM:
Thanks Tom and Lance. Thanks to all of you.
Ive been lucky. I still have one grandmother and both my parents. I couldnt imagine Lance. Thats gotta be tough. Ill be 39 shortly. I couldnt imagine.
My grandfather was a good man. Yes Tom, I have been thinking for the last 24hrs just what you said. All the things we did when I was a kid. He was a rancher. County commissioner in the 70s. Worked hard his whole life, until the last ten years. He was 85. His kidneys shut down two years ago and has been taking dialysis three times a week. That was hard on him. He fell and hurt his back a month ago and has been in alot of pain. I saw him last friday and I could tell time was short. He was tired and ready to go home. Im sure hes in a much better place tonight.
He raised five kids and six grandkids. One thing a little different, his mother out lived him. Shes 97 and still going. She was 12 when she had him and raised six kids of her own.
Your never ready for it and its sad. But, at the same time, it really hurt me, and the rest of the family, to see that big, strong, proud man in the shape he has been in lately. Hes in a better place.
Thanks to you all.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 21, 2006, 08:28 PM:
Meanwhile:
The New York Times wants Gitmo closed. The San Jose Mercury News claims that Gitmo nurtures a culture of death. The Cleveland Plain Dealer wants Gitmo closed. Journalists and editorial staffs are up in arms that there might possibly be some kind of torture occurring.
So what do they say when torture OBVIOUSLY occurs? How do they react when two U.S. servicemen — in Geneva Convention-approved uniforms — have their hearts cut out, their testicles cut off, their penises cut off and stuffed in their mouths, arms contorted and eyes gouged? THIS is torture.
But WHERE is the outrage?
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 21, 2006, 09:05 PM:
Sorry LB, didnt mean to hijack the thread....
Did all those things take place? I havent seen much news the last couple of days.
You know the outrage puzzles me as well. For instance, the same folks that were pumping their fists in the air on 9-11, calling for Muslim heads to roll in rivers of blood are the same ones that are doing the loudest bitching about GW and the war. WTF?
I think the right side may still have a fighting chance this fall and in two years. Things are starting to come in line and hopefully folks will wake up and realize how bad these folks really are.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 21, 2006, 10:24 PM:
I cut and pasted that from FOXNEWS website.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,200419,00.html
(another little gem I found)
Leading the students was U.S. anti-war campaigner Cindy Sheehan, who lost her son in Iraq and energized the anti-war movement last summer with a protest outside Bush's Texas ranch. Demonstrators waved black flags, blew whistles, beat drums and shouted, "Hey, ho, Bush has got to go!" Others carried banners and signs that said "World's No. 1 Terrorist" and "Islam is not the enemy."
[ June 21, 2006, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 22, 2006, 12:50 PM:
Yea,
It really amazes me to.I can't for the life of me figure these people(American Liberals).The ACLU is willing to go to bat for all these Terrorist bastards in Cuba and Iraq,and in the same breathe wants the heads of our own servicemen for war crimes.Unfreakin believeable.It really is discusting to even call them Americans.These guys have a hell of a tough job to do and they should be allowed to do it without criticism from every nut job liberal in the world looking over there shoulder,looking for a reason to cry FOUL.Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 22, 2006, 04:15 PM:
Good one, Chad......sudden thought! Are you going to cross post on the darkside?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 23, 2006, 12:52 PM:
Leonard,
Nah,I've had my fill of politics over there for a little while.If you could have a quality debate about issues it might be worth it,but he starts pulling shit off some of these off the wall liberal blogs that are total B.S.And then as soon as you start making to much sense for JH He either stops posting on the subject or he starts with the personal slams,and the disscusion suffers(you know the one where he has to be the smartest Guy in the room syndrome).He Just hates Bush and the Republicans so bad,I really don't think he cares if he makes any sense,or is right or wrong,by damn he will let you know how evil and deceptive "The Administation" is.Pretty Lame.Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 23, 2006, 12:55 PM:
Damn Chad, Mom didnt mention any brothers.... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 23, 2006, 04:59 PM:
Andy,
It is nice to have someone over there with some of the same view points.
I just went over to the Darkside to do some lurking.Boy,JH is sure trying to bait ol' Andy in on the Minimum wage thread. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 23, 2006, 06:56 PM:
Im full and not biting at the moment..... He can bait all he wants to.
Hell Chad, same political views and both call downwind.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 23, 2006, 08:43 PM:
Worry not Andy...the Dawg just grabbed him by his striped shirt collar,and shook him a bit. Between him and Harter, he is bound to soak up some sense:)
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 23, 2006, 10:10 PM:
How long have you known him Vic? And just how much sense has he soaked up in that time?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 24, 2006, 08:59 AM:
LOL!! Tim, you have a special talent that I really enjoy. Someone will put an arrow in the center of the bull, as Vic just did, and then you will "Robin Hood" it.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 24, 2006, 09:21 AM:
All I can say is ; Tim must be feeling better?
But, also brings to mind the title of another Ann Coulter book: "How to talk to a Liberal...If you must".
Seems they don't soak up sense like regular people? They lack the "soak" gene.
Mandatory remedial education might have some value, but it would take years? Come to think of it, they might even go for it. For a card carrying Liberal, there is always room for one more "entitlement" program; especially if they can force people with a job to pay for it by increasing their taxes!
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 24, 2006, 05:13 PM:
The wife just pulled that thread up on the Dark side and insisted that I sit here and read it.
So I did,
Then I read it again, and once more.
Is that idiot trying to make a point among all of those words? What the hell is it? If that man has an opinion, why in the hell can't he just spit it out, instead of quoting a bunch of people that most have A) never hear of or read and B) don't really give a rat's ass about.
As far as I am concerned, if an adult is making minimum wage, as his sole means of support. Then he or she is obviously making as much or more than they deserve to make. If you don't have the motivation to get off of you ass and find a better job, you don't have the motivation needed to deserve a raise either.
Here's a few questions for those f you inclined to waste your time posting over there.
[Edit: I'm sorry, There are a few things that I probably shouldn't speak of in public. I believe everything that I said to be true, but it does no good to post them and just stir the crap
I just got irritated when I read what he had been writing about our President and Military men. I feel that due to his chosen lifestyle, he has absolutely no room to talk bad about anyone.
I'm glad to see that he has finally listened to Harter. Mike is a hell of a great guy, and I'd welcome him into my home or camp at any time. I sure wish we could convince him to abandon his hopes of finding truth in the dark, and come post on the light side.
Congratulations Mike, you hold my sincere admiration!]
And yes Leonard, I'm feeling much better! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ June 24, 2006, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Tim Behle ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 24, 2006, 05:39 PM:
Hmmmmm, somebody once told me that nobody seemed to know what that guy does for a living. Sounds as though somebody around here knows.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 24, 2006, 05:45 PM:
Tim,
I know I said I was done over there for a while,but this time I mean it.KHD is talking like an idiot as far as politics goes.He Rants and Raves and makes no sense at all.If I thought it would do any good I would post the things you said but like I said before he will either not post back or go off on some personal pissing post attack that really has nothing to do with the topic at hand.I really think like Andy said,he's really lost his Marbles on this politics crap. Good Hunting Chad
Looks like ol' Andy let him have though.
[ June 24, 2006, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 24, 2006, 07:24 PM:
Curiosity makes me do strange things, on occasion. Thanks everybody for giving clues as to where I might find BS Central.
But, I did hear that JH had a job poisoning ravens, one summer; so you guys shouldn't be exaggerating the employment situation or the lack of visible means of support.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 24, 2006, 07:58 PM:
Boy, Andy now you went and done it.Looks like JH pulled the "General Discussion" off the Board.Now you can add that to a list of things he will do when confronted and no where to go.
1)refuse to respond to the post
2)avoid the issue in favor of personal attacks
3)Delete the whole problem away
I just noticed he created a new forum,and says NO more politics.
Boy,Tim you really know how to get to JH.I'm impressed.
Good Hunting Chad
[ June 24, 2006, 08:02 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 24, 2006, 08:01 PM:
Is that what happened? I read every damned post under current topics. Nothing? LB
edit: there is something down at the bottom called, Specific Discussion?
[ June 24, 2006, 08:05 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 24, 2006, 08:04 PM:
Leonard,
Remember Hitman243? He used to post a lot on the boards. The summer that JH Poisoned the Raven eggs, Hitman243 was either a coworker or a supervisor to JH.
If you ever talk to him, you should ask why JH was hired to trap coyotes, and use his dogs to flush coyotes out of the brush to be shot by the plane. Then moved over and told to set out poisoned eggs to kill ravens for the rest of the summer.
I don't care to have his whiny ass licker's accuse me of trying to start a board war, or hitting a man in a place he can't defend himself. But it's a hell of a good story, and I promise you will laugh when you hear it!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 24, 2006, 08:11 PM:
Tim, I remember the hitman, good guy. I have heard most of the stories, seems to be two general versions? As far as a board war where he cannot defend himself, I don't think that would happen? But, he can defend himself here, I never blocked him, or had any desire to block him. Liberals deserve our pity, not our scorn. Especially them that don't vote.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 25, 2006, 07:53 AM:
I didnt say anything I didnt believe to be true. I really do like the folks on that board as well as here. That being consumed with politics was ruining that board.
I know theres alot of hard feelings and some run deep, but for me personally, I really hate the fact that there is so much hostility, it comes down to a us or them mentality. Not for all, but for some. It would be cool to hang out both places.
There surely are some very knowlegable folks in both places. A hack like me can learn alot.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 25, 2006, 08:39 AM:
I have not gone over and read any of the stuff. JH never actually banned me, just made it crystal clear that "my kind" aren't welcome, so I've been off his board for years. Sounds like all the threads being talked about are gone now anyway.
But no doubt, Mike Harter is as solid as they come. Shawn Frame too.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 25, 2006, 09:27 AM:
Well, I hope the dust clears on the darkside and they work out some ground rules about expressing opinions, especially political opinions, without suffering the death penalty.
I do give Andy (and a few others) credit for deciding to hang around on Huntmasters as well as http://www.coyotegods.com/ubb/forum.shtml and any other hunting board that strikes their fancy, for that matter.
Those previously mentioned are certainly welcome to join in the conversation without fear of being called a traitor. I think we have grown out of the "board war" mentality, hope so anyway?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 25, 2006, 09:55 AM:
Like I said before, it would be a tragedy to never again share a campfire with those fellas. Frame, Harter, Cat and several others, including the KHD himself. I like those guys alot. And it would all be over politics. Ignorant, IMHO.
Just the same, I hope to share a campfire with the fellas here someday and get to know yall as well. I dont see any reason a guy cant get along with more than one group of people. Guilt by association is not a good thing.
Thanks LB, I appreciate the words.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 25, 2006, 11:05 AM:
Andy L,
I know exactly what you mean. I spent one whole day with John-Henry, and did some calling with him. We got along fine the whole time. No political talk or anything. Just plain old lie swapping and calling coyotes.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 25, 2006, 11:23 AM:
Rich,
I have spent a total of 30 days at his place since Jan of 04. Had alot of fun. Hope to again.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 25, 2006, 12:05 PM:
You know, there really is some merit to that old adage concerning the discussion of religion and politics amongst friends.
I can hang with a good arguement about calibers,cartridges,rifles,handguns,hunting,calling...any of that,without to much trouble. But; throw in a dose of politics or religion, and the debate usually turns from spirited discussion, to a blind passion,fueled with a dogmatic belief.
It's so strange, that a group of men, can join a forum, with so many other men, that have so many of the same interests and experiences to talk about, suddenly go south becasue of gawd damned politics.
Every board seems to have that, some more than others. We are pretty fortunate here, there just haven't been all that many dustups.
I would rather have some one wave their arms wildly,rant and holler about what they thought was my piss poor choice of rifle or cartridge for hunting coyotes, than tell me why I should, or should not believe a particular political or religious philosophy, because invariably it shakes down to name calling.
I don't know about you, but I figure when it comes down to sonofabitchin' someone, the exchange of ideas has petered out? Thats the problem in a shift of conversation from ideas and opinions; to beliefs and convictions, the wiggle room narrows, opponents face off, and things get nasty.
Political discussions,or religious discussions, are probably best kicked around, in a political or religious specific forum. Then you know the deal, and are with a group of like minded people,ready to spit and cuss at each other jousting with the conflicting talking points of the week.
Im just here to talk hunting and shooting with you guys, I don't care what your religious beliefs are,and I don't mean that sarcastically, it's none of my business. As to your politics, luckily, Im pretty sure mine are consistent with most of the guys here, so that just hardly ever comes up, and Im all for keeping it that way.
..........Now, as for leonard finally getting away from those damned cannons he calls coyote rifles,and getting closer to nirvana. Whats the report on your .223 Ackley? You getting closer to maybe trying anything under the .20 mark. I thought you had mentioned once, a passing interest in the .19-.223 Calhoon?
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 25, 2006, 01:24 PM:
"You getting closer to maybe trying anything under the .20 mark. I thought you had mentioned once, a passing interest in the .19-.223 Calhoon?"
-------------
Vic,
That was probably gonna be for pigeons, ground squirrels and the like.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 25, 2006, 03:18 PM:
Vic, what a friggin' bomb thrower!
No, seriously. I am interested in 19/223, but what the hell for, at this point? I'm not a fur hunter, except on occasion, so why ratchet the foot pounds down to marginal? I really like a bullet to blast through and exit, something I required for night hunting. You know? Bang/flop?
That is the big thing, of course. All night hunters, except Blaine use serious calibers and cartridges. You have to wonder why there is such universal agreement.
Good hunting. LB
oh, and the 223 Ackley? I am screwing with the forend pressure, groups are not what I had hoped?
[ June 25, 2006, 03:26 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 25, 2006, 05:16 PM:
Leonard,
Don't forget, I'm a reformed night hunter. And the first night hunting rifle I bought for myself, was a 17 Remington.
I've never found a caliber that could kill a coyote quicker, or thread though the brush more accurately, but I'm still searching!
Those 22, 24 and 25 caliber rifles are nice "Fun guns" But if you want a serious coyote caliber, you need to pick up a 17.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 25, 2006, 06:58 PM:
The .17 for a serious coyote whacker? I give up. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 25, 2006, 07:49 PM:
That .17 Predator has really peaked my interest.
[ June 25, 2006, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 25, 2006, 09:19 PM:
Blaine has some exceedingly "serious" rifles for special applications. Night hunting being one such application.
- DAA
Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on June 25, 2006, 11:22 PM:
I'd like to hear more about the .14's and .11's
If we're gonna go small, let's go SMALL.
Brad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 26, 2006, 09:12 AM:
quote:
Blaine has some exceedingly "serious" rifles for special applications. Night hunting being one such application. DAA
There you have it folks. Night hunters (100%) use serious cartridges. Then we have contest hunters that are also in agreement. I have never seen, or talked to a serious contest hunter that uses a seventeen caliber of any description.
That's all I have to say on that subject; don't try to swim upstream, folks.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 26, 2006, 10:34 AM:
I have never seen a serious fur hunter or serious .17 cal shooter, who was involved with contest hunting,or had an interest in it.
I don't think one particular point of view is more valid than the other,except for their particular application. I get it;if you hunt coyotes at night, you don't want to trail one that is dead, but sprinted 30 yards. It's dark, you use lights, you want that coyote cut in half right where you pulled the trigger on it.
In your day time contests, time is of the essence,and you don't want to waste time trailing a dead coyote that sprinted off a ways, you want to pick up the bloddy mess,and get it in back of the truck, so you can scream off in the desert, to stack more bloody messes in the back of the truck.
Thats not the goal of the 17 shooters and fur hunters. It's a refinement of your process,and not such an ugly game. I have absolute confidence my .17 will kill any coyote, just as dead as your 6mm or 25-06. The difference is, I can walk over to pick it up,and it's not sawed in half,or has big gaping holes blown in it. It looks for all the world like it had a heart attack.
If you would come spend two weeks with Tim and I this winter Leonard, and actually use a .17 for more than two hours, kill six or ten coyotes with it, possibly you might change your mind, at least for the application we use them for.
I want coyotes in the back of the truck too, If I had come to the conclusion the .17 couldn't do it, I wouldn't use one, instead, I keep going smaller in my cartridges. Shot correctly,a coyote is just not that hard to kill, Ive seen enough bad shots,even with big guns to verify that bigger is not necessarily better....its just uglier:)
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 26, 2006, 01:25 PM:
Very good post Vic.I have started coming around to the same conclusion.I have been using my .204 for the last year or so and with the 35 grain bergers it kills coyotes very efficiently and with little damage to boot.My brother uses a .17 Rem. and has had great success with it too.So I guess it comes down to your application.Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 26, 2006, 05:58 PM:
Who is the wise guy that sent me this and claims it's the Coyote Gods, JH and Vic?
Not funny!
[ June 26, 2006, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 26, 2006, 06:20 PM:
Thanks Leonard......that gave me a good chuckle, oh man.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 26, 2006, 07:04 PM:
If i had sponsers to help with the exspenses Leonard, you would be hearing about a 17 cal being used in calling contest. (Mine) Most contests are a days drive or better for me so i don't do them. Rshaw wants to come up calling and if the timeing is right we mite enter a contest, well have to wait and see.
See what you started Tim B.
[ June 26, 2006, 07:05 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on June 27, 2006, 09:11 PM:
I will pay $1000 if you and your partner can come in third or better with both of you shooting any 17. Here's your funding, if you can deliver??
Jack
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 28, 2006, 05:34 AM:
That offer apply retroactively Jack?
Actually, I'm not sure it was top 3, and I'm also not sure what the other half of the team was shooting. But I do know somebody that placed top 5 in the Elko world contest one year, shooting a .17.
- DAA
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 28, 2006, 05:42 AM:
I can think of a few folks just off the top of my head that I wouldnt mind backing on that challenge. (No, Im not one of em....)
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on June 28, 2006, 07:31 AM:
All right, who is responsible for a discussion of .17s in a thread titled Barbaric Killings?
I own 3 different .17s and have been shooting them for about 25 years. I know that a few callers take great pride in their calling success using the 17 and rightfully so. However their agenda is quite different from a caller that absolutely has to put a coyote on the ground regardless of condition. Hitman 243 told me that he uses 95 BT in his 243 because he wants "a hole big enough to stick my boot in."
I use a 6mm and Tyler uses a .243 for contests. I can think of two contests we would not have won if we used 17s. When more than one coyote responds to the call you usually are presented with only "Texas heart shots" after the first shot. That is a very poor, low confidence shot with a 17. A "cannon" as Vic calls them will put them right down. But as Vic also pointed out, they are not fur friendly. When we turned in 13 or 14 pelts for one contest a couple of years ago, the hunt co-ordinator asked us if we skinned them with a chainsaw.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 28, 2006, 07:43 AM:
Will Jack lose his $1000.00? I don't think so.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on June 28, 2006, 09:02 AM:
I might be the only guy around that puts up some fur, attends contests, and does some ADC work. And I have a use for several different guns because of it I guess. Depends on what I'm doing, and where I am. I haven't hunted the tight brush of Arizona and some places like that, but for the most part pretty open country. At the contests we set up for as many possibilities as we can, from 4 yards to 400 yards. One guy usually has an AR and a shotgun, one guy has a big boomer and a shotgun, and we may switch that from stand to stand. If it's pretty open and we are thinking a single we both pack big rifles and maybe one shotgun, if its a creek bottom and we have located and know we have the remnants of a litter and a good possibility of multiples we set them up for as much shotgun work as possible. In the winter on the trapline I pack my AR most of the time, I may want to skin something and the .223 makes that possible. For ADC stuff, its back to the .243 and I want it to rain coyote chunks. I want an audible report and to see a coyote crumple. That being said, I will say there is a limit on size due to the fact that I don't want so much recoil that I can't see the coyote fall in my scope, so the 6mms are max for me. The 25's have too much recoil. I'm personally biased against the centerfire 17's just due to accuracy and barrel problems, but I have never had a custom one built with a good barrel. I had a couple Rem 700's and they would foul fast and start tumbling bullets and all kinds of strange stuff. I have entertained seriously rebuilding my AR to .204 and I still might for a fur gun, especially if our coyotes stay around the 40 to 50 dollar mark that they brought last year.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 28, 2006, 09:14 AM:
When I hunt with a partner, which isnt that often, I like for one of us to have a shotgun with 4buck. Saved bacon more than once.
Actually, the old fella that taught me to call insisted on it. He used a 270 and wanted me to carry a shotgun.
I havent got the chance to use it enough yet to know, but I really like my little 204 from what I have seen of it...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 28, 2006, 09:56 AM:
Dave, if there be one man using a 17 in a contest, as described, I'd like to talk to him about the details and reasons. I'm thinking "bag of golf clubs" approach; cherry picking?
Okay, somebody uses a seventeen caliber at one of the major contests and places in the top three. The odds say it's his first Rodeo, and he will never make that mistake again, or he's particularly hard headed? Again, no Crusader here, but you can do a lot with bullet selection in a 20 or 22 centerfire, if you want to limit damage.
There is a race in central Nevada, about a hundred miles down a closed section of highway. Most vehicles are sports cars, Corvettes, etc. Now who would enter the contest, drive hundreds of miles with the race car on a trailer, and run the race in a Honda Civic, because it gets good millage?
Get the picture? lol
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on June 28, 2006, 10:32 AM:
It's not how fast you go; it's what you see along the way:)
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on June 28, 2006, 12:00 PM:
I believe Blaine told me he placed near the top in Elko one year with a 17? Not positive, but pretty sure.
I would put him and Vic together with 17s and feel safe bettin on them. Both good callers and fantastic shots.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 28, 2006, 12:07 PM:
I was wondering if maybe one of them Gamo .17 caliber pellet rifles would make a decent coyote whacker.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 28, 2006, 12:56 PM:
I'd like to play poker with Blaine and Vic. They would probably insist that they not be delt any aces or face cards?
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 30, 2006, 09:02 PM:
Jack R. Thanks for the offer. Leonard can you keep a mental note on the offer made by Jack. There are two contests in Dec. in South Dakota if i can come up with a partner i will take you up on the offer Jack. Last year at one of the contests the winners shot 3 or 4 coyotes to win. I came out a week later and got six on my own with one of my 17 cal.s. Shooting them with a 17 cal is the easy part, its getting the weather to cooperate thats hard. Well have to see what happens. Well also make some phone calls and get the dates of contests. This could be really interesting. All take care and have a great 4 th of july week-end.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 30, 2006, 09:27 PM:
Cal T. you are right on as far as accuracy goes in a factory 17 rem. I have owned quite a few of them and they never did shoot very well. Most of them were taken to gunsmith and rebarreled with custom barrel. As i stated awhile back in one of my post i also carry along a 22-250 ackly, but so far i have not had a reason to use it much. I think i shot 2-3 coyotes with it last year. Like AZ-hunter said you non believers come hunting with someone that has a custom 17 cal and after shooting it for a few days i think you will see that it can be a very effective coyote getter.
Cal T. i also like to put up fur and i found that the less washing and stiching i have to do the quicker i can get them on the stretcher and make a few bucks to.
Rich C. you have to have faith in the 17 or any other gun as far as that goes. Just like i have faith in youre calls that i have'nt used yet, both of them sound real good and produce a number of sounds and i know i will have great results with them.
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on June 30, 2006, 10:34 PM:
TA17Rem,
The offer stands.
Just let us know what contests you are entering.
Jack
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