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Author
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Topic: Why no tractors?
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 16, 2006 04:23 AM
Been watching these huge wildfires in Texas - like all of you - and notice that there aren't any pics of them using tractors and disks/ plows to cut firelines. Anyone in the area tell me about the ground there? Is it all rangeland and there just aren't any farmers around with tractors to use? When I was in high school and on the local FD, we had a similar type fire in the Smoky Hills west of us. Ended up burning a swath 10X12.5 miles. Had 17 different fire departments on scene and the trucks were all but useless as primary attack and suppression vehicles. Instead, about five hours into things, the Incident Commander put out a call on local radio and TV stations for farmers willing to bring tractors and implements in to cut fire breaks. Ended up with a convoy of nearly a hundred John Deer, Case, and a rainbow of other colors escorted by law enforcement ahead of the fire where they set up about six staggered insertions. One tractor with a folding three-stage disc can break a 60-foot wide swath of grass in quick order. Once we had two fire breaks, we would back burn the grass between the two and it took no time to stop the head fires. Just curious, because my Range Management professor at KSU said that they had learned some invaluable lessons on that fire that would be used in future large-scale wildfires, but I haven't seen a single tractor in use on TV.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 16, 2006 07:49 AM
West Texas is totally different, desert. I've seen it. Just like AZ and NM.
But driving the length of Texas this past October, I wondered what the hell was the deal where they cut the highway through the rock to make it flat, instead of going up and over these little rolling swells. If you look at the strata as you drive, it's all rock. You aren't going to disc that stuff.
Then, the cover is all trees, brush and undergrowth. Even if the ground wasn't shale, or whatever it is(?) That stuff (looks) inpenetrable to a tractor? But it sure looks like good kindling.
Out here, they use bombers and helicopters, but they still rely on ground crews to get down in those canyons with hand tools. Tractors wouldn't work here, either.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted March 16, 2006 02:56 PM
Lance if you are talking about the fires in the panhandle east and west of Amarillo, the majority of this country is range land but with lots of farm ground also so there would be plenty of tractors in the area. I haven't seen any news clips of the fire your talking about but I would think they would be smart enough to be plowing where they could. There would be some of that area that would be rocky with canyons that you couldn't get a tractor over but lots of that is flat farm land
[ March 16, 2006, 03:15 PM: Message edited by: JeremyKS ]
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted March 16, 2006 03:12 PM
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/news/state/14103206.htm
Lance here is a link that talks about what the state is sending to them it includes 55 bulldozers.
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 16, 2006 03:56 PM
That was going to be my next question. There's enough fuel load to support combustion, so the proactive thing to do would be to remove that fuel. In our area, it's accomplished by either disking or dozing. If the ground there is as you say, then dozing would be the answer. Fact is, in the circumstances that currently exist, ground crews and water tenders just can't keep up with it. They need to examine topo maps, identify where the fire is going to go given current and projected winds and weather patterns, and get ahead of it. In our case, we found several large bluffs and ridges that we sent the tractors in on the downwind side of the ridges. The fire is going to race up the windward side, but traveling downhill, it'll go only as fast as the wind can push it. If you have a good firebreak that's wider than the wind can push, it'll slow it down a lot. This may be a hundred yards or more distance. As I said earlier, we would actually try to cut several consecutive fire breaks, about a hundred yards apart, going at a right angle across in front of the head fires and along the leading half of the flanks, then back burn between them. Position fire units along those fire breaks and when the fire hits them, they may still be able to cross by leap frogging thru the residue tilled under, but the momentum is seriously slowed down and water becomes much more effective. I've been on shortgrass pastures that were burning in 25-35 mph winds and you'd think there was nothing to burn. Then, a gust of wind comes up and everything for a hundred yards downwind from the fire lines erupts into flames at the same time. I actually got caught once when the wind changed, I was working a flank fire and was in full turnouts (thank God) with only a shovel for a tool when the winds swung around on me. I was about forty feet from a dry creek channel with long switch grass growing along it and draped out over the channel. The fire came down the hill at me faster than I could outrun it, so I pulled my nomex hood up over my face, dropped my face shield, ran to the dry creek bed and started digging. I got enough of a hole dug to get my head down in it before the fire got to where I was. Seconds later, all that switch grass above me exploded into flames and for a second ot two, it got real hot down there. I still had fresh air with my head down low, so I just waited it out. Less than a minute later, the head fires were past me and I raised my head to be greeted by two fire chiefs and a half-dozen of my guys giving me a rash of crap for scaring them. Melted all the decals off my helmet. (They got replaced pretty regularly.) They say we may get rain thru the weekend. Hoping so.
I don't know about that area, but the timing for these fires here is just a tad early to being really, really good for spring growth. Of course, down there in the desert, it will probably be years before the grasses recover fully.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 16, 2006 03:58 PM
Jeremy,
On another note, the new T&PC is out today and the St. Francis piece is in it. Hope you like.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted March 16, 2006 05:52 PM
Cdog911,
Sounds like you have some good ideas, but I don't think that you understand the concept of what an Environmentalist does.
You can't put a plow or disk into the ground out here with out a permit. That permit may take 6 months to get for use on private land. But two years ( If ever ) on public lands.
Those fires just don't wait.
But don't worry, these Environmentalists are making their way East. You will understand in another 10 years or so.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted March 16, 2006 05:58 PM
I just talked to my aunt that lives in Amarillo and she said that it is unbelievable the amount of damage that it has caused. The worst stories are about the lives it has taken but then there are the gruesome stories about the cattle and horses getting burned to death and then the ones that lived through it but no longer have hooves, tails, and their eyes and mouths sealed shut. A fire like this in our area with less than 18 inches of annual rainfall can take years and years for full recovery.
Thanks Lance I will check it out.
Jeremy
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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yuccabush
Knows what it's all about
Member # 582
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posted March 16, 2006 08:45 PM
I'm pretty sure the forest service requires an inspection of all equipment to be used in support of fire fighting. Once you pass the inspection your equipment may make a list for possible callout.
[ March 16, 2006, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: yuccabush ]
Posts: 67 | From: Bernalillo | Registered: Feb 2005
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quapaw9300
PAKMAN
Member # 819
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posted March 16, 2006 09:06 PM
I used to work for the Arizona State Land Department/Fire Supression. The enviro's give government a tough time about dozing and tractor work...creates issues/liabilities...you know the drill. North of Tucson I once ordered in several tractors and a grader. State fire dispatch declined to provide the order. I was the Incident Commander. Anyway, if it's BLM lands then the BLM will and does use dozers sometimes. ( BLM Winnamuca Ranger District does it a lot. )
Sorry, I can get carried away with this stuff
Posts: 1 | From: NW Tucson / Marana area. | Registered: Mar 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 16, 2006 09:33 PM
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, quapaw9300. Glad to have you on board.
There's the thing about Texas, to a non native. Every road you turn on to has locked gates...and BLM, what's that? I have been lead to believe public land doesn't exist in TX.
Yeah, north of Winnemucca had a real good burn about 3-4 years ago.
We have some issues around here with political decisions, like leasing Superscoopers for L.A. County and then letting all the San Bernardino Foothill communities burn up, until the fire crossed into Claremont, then they got right on it after several dozen homes burned. Of course, they could have prevented any Claremont homes from burning if they had bombed Upland, but that was across the line. <sheesh>
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 17, 2006 04:21 AM
Tim, I got to thinking about the land issues down there after my last post and recalled a fire in the Mesa Verde region of SW Colorado a few years back. My uncle witnessed the lightning strike that caused it and called the fire in. Because of the regulations about vehicles of any kind entering much of those areas, and the enviro. regs, much more of the countryside burned there than was necessary. And I understand about the fragility of the environment where that are can take decades to rebound. Here, burn today, green tomorrow.
At the other end of the spectrum was the Yellowstone fires of the '80's. Might have looked bad at the time, but it was the best thing to happen for those acres where bioproductivity was nearly zero. I'm still not convinced that some of those fires weren't actually controlled burns portrayed as wildfires. I know of at least one in Rocky Mountain Nat'l Park that was played that way on the news when it was, in fact, intentionally set.
Jeremy, sounds pretty gruesome. Lot of livestock perished this time around. Nothing deserves to die like that.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
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posted March 17, 2006 07:59 AM
I doubt there were too many farmers or ranchers stopping for an inspection. Like Leonard said there is no blm ground to worry about so usually anything goes, at least it does when there is a fire in my part of the world. We had a lightning fire last July that was in some country that fire trucks just could not get to because of the sandy conditions and terrain. The first thing I did was called the local crop duster(my neighbor) and had him filling up his plane for some aerial support luckily the wind switched and settled and it burned it self out while the local fire department was trying to get to the fire so there was no need for the plane. But that’s the way it is here, the neighbors were bringing their tractors to help out and they would expect the same from us.
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted March 17, 2006 08:20 AM
It looks like mother nature might bring some moisture to TX. by the end of the weekend. Let's all cross our fingers, and say a prayer that the fires are put down soon. Enough is enough already!!
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
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