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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 21, 2006, 12:52 PM:
I talked to a hunter, Yuma, Arizona guy, shoots birds and big game, mostly.
In a group, we were talking about Roadrunners, somebody had seem one, somewhere? What happened next was out of the Twilight Zone, as far as this kid is concerned.
Most in the group were probably younger than me, probably spent years watching Wiley E Coyote get pounded by the Roadrunner?
Now, it may be that a coyote will ignore a roadrunner, and maybe not?
I don't know? Now, I have only seen roadrunners in Arizona and California, but maybe they occur in southern Nevada and New Mexico, Texas? I don't know their distribution and some of us don't know much about them, at all.
But, what's the answer? I'm taking a poll. Is a roadrunner totally safe from a "stupid" coyote? Guesses welcome.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on February 21, 2006, 01:52 PM:
I've only seen one type of roadrunner in person. And if that roadrunner has a six pack 440 or dual quad 426 hemi, a wing, and a good set of goodyears I don't think the coyote will catch it. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Mopar.
later,
scruffy
[ February 21, 2006, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 21, 2006, 02:08 PM:
Since the roadrunner is another predator, a competitor, I doubt that the coyote considers it prey. I would bet that it would kill one at any opportunity as does other meso-predators.
Ray E from the club went calling with me a couple weeks ago and we stopped by his parents home for a short visit. They feed about 50 lbs of birdseed a month to the critters in their yard. A few days earlier a covey of quali came into the yard and as they kicked and scratched at the scattered seed a roadrunner sneaked into the yard and laid down next to the corner of a campershell. When a quail ventured too close the roadrunner darted out and grabbed it, killed it instantly and ran off with the quail in it's mouth " topknot hanging out one side and the feet hanging out the other".
Kinda surprised me. I didn't know they killed prey that big.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 21, 2006, 03:02 PM:
That's kind of interesting all by itself, Rich. I always assumed they ate small rodents and lizards, maybe a small snake? Never thought of birds?
We have some in the quarrys both sides of town. I wouldn't harm one even if they weren't protected.
Good hunting. LB
PS, I surely do not think a roadrunner would stand much of a chance, in a confrontation.
[ February 22, 2006, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on February 22, 2006, 08:14 AM:
Ive never been around too many roadrunners before but have seen them in Northern New Mexico along with a few in the Texas Panhandle. Rich thats an interesting story about the quail.
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on February 22, 2006, 11:13 PM:
How would a coyote know that a roadrunner is prey Rich? Seriously, I'm not trying to be silly or anything. I suppose a young coyote would have to see a roadrunner killing something to know that. Seems like it would be a unique scenario where a coyote would recognize a roadrunner as a competitor.
My guess is that the coyote would make every effort to fill his tummy with that correcaminos.
P.S. That quail story is awesome!!!
[ February 22, 2006, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 23, 2006, 07:06 PM:
We have a few roadrunners here in Oklahoma, seeing more and more of them in the last few years and fewer and fewer Quail but after the beatings ol Wiley E. took I think I'll leave them alone.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 23, 2006, 08:14 PM:
To me, the $64k question centers around whether or not a coyote perceives another animal of a different species as a competitor, verus simply a potential food source. I mean, do you think a coyote catches and eats a red fox in his territory becaue he thinks the little red bastard has it coming to him, or because he's simply easy to catch and tastes like chicken? Wouldn't the coyote simply see the roadrunner as a possible meal and may not prey upon them too often simply because they're harder to catch than, say, prickly pears? Aren't we maybe giving the coyote a wee bit too much cognitive credit here when, in the past, many have steadfastly refused to accord the coyote any ability to think in the first place?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2006, 08:32 PM:
I dunno? A little bit shaky ground on the roadrunner, but I think it is generally accepted that coyotes perceive foxes as intelopers on their territory....in much the same way they view OTHER COYOTES!
So, they kill fox, and eat them. They probably can't articulate their motivation with regard to roadrunners, but as the ultimate survivor, I think they probably take whatever they can get....although I have this nagging feeling about coyotes and Gambels quail, as discussed by Higgins. If there is some symbiosis going on as relates to RRs, I'd be surprised?
Good hunting. LB
[ February 24, 2006, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on February 23, 2006, 08:34 PM:
I agree with Cdog, after all, a coyote will eat a snake in a heart beat, and snakes eat critters that a coyote eats, so isn't a snake also a competitor to the coyote, but I don't think the coyote cares! A coyote has to eat and what ever it catches first is what it eats!! If the coyote happens to catch a road runner that has a snake in it's mouth, which will it eat first, the bird or the snake?
I hear snake tastes like chicken too!!
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 24, 2006, 06:44 AM:
Why does it have to be one OR the other?
Coyote behavior is complex and varied. I don't believe there is any such thing as a hungry coyote in this part of the southwest, mesquite is everywhere and coyote scat is full of mesquite beans all year long. The coyote does not get dragged around by his stomach here. Just as he doesn't get dragged around by his penis as some suggest.
I see a territorial response to competitors, regardless whether they are meso or alpha to the coyote, that run or fly around scooping up munchies in HIS territory. The fact that most things are edible to a coyote is beside and part of the fact.
I've seen coyotes run ravens off of carrion and I have seen them tolerate ravens at carrion.
I've seen them steal rabbits from hawks. I wouldn't be surprised if they killed the hawk if they could catch it. I don't know if they would eat it.
I've seen them confront dogs and try to run them out of the area. I know that they eat small dogs.
Camanzind said that a rival pack of coyotes killed all but one of the puppies of an adjacent pack and a coyote ate one of the pups.
A coyote is the quintessential opportunist. If he can keep it down he will likely eat it. Regardless whether it is perceived as competitor, prey or a combination of both.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 24, 2006, 07:55 AM:
Rich,
I don't think it HAS to be one way OR the other. Our perception of those restrictions are of our own construct and I think it illustrates the way that researchers always seem to categorize things when, in truth, a lot of what we observe may just be random responses to ambient conditions. As with you, I've never seen a coyote I considered to be starving - even the mangey ones - and so I find it difficult to believe that the coyote would definitely consider a species other than his own as competition. That just requires a level of reasoning that I don't think a coyote approaches. Within his own species,... yeah. But I've never seen it with foxes and coyotes. I've always heard that a coyote will go out of his way to track down a red and kill it if the two meet in the coyote's territory. And I've seen the studies that show this phenomena when the two species' territories overlap. But I've also consistently caught a number of red foxes in areas heavily pop'd by coyotes and have never had one eaten while in the trap. Even there, I'm not convinced that the coyote eats the fox because his primary goal is to eliminate a major competitor as much as he sees an animal thrashing around in obvious distress and unable to get away. I personally believe that the relationship between the coyote and his various neighbors - thosehe eats and those he doesn't - just further illustrates the role the coyote plays as the consummate opportunist. His adaptability and variability are what set him aside from his larger cousins, the wolves, and explains his ability to survive, whereas the wolves' requirements are so strict and rigid that it results in increasing difficulty in adapting to changing conditions. This concept extands thru every aspect of the coyote's life, including his ability to survive alone or in a pack structure, urban versus the most remote rural regions, vegetarian or carnivore. The list goes on and on.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 24, 2006, 08:35 AM:
Lance, I believe it is two different things working, if we want to discuss fox, in particular. Just because a fox exists within coyote territory does not mean that a coyote will not kill it, if he has a chance.
On the other hand, as a food source, I can assure you that they eat gray fox. I have had fox stolen from me on stand, watched them do it and was not able to stop it, ...had I known what was going on?
You know, the coyote is on the top of the food chain almost everywhere. That's HIS territory and he controls it. I don't see why he would allow competitors, and I think maybe he can see what is and what isn't a competitor?
Good hunting. LB
[ February 24, 2006, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 24, 2006, 10:04 AM:
Point well taken, Leonard, and I don't doubt that the coyote eats greys (and reds, too). But again, the question is why. Is it because he regards the fox as a competitior for the same resource - a vengeance sort of thing? Or, is it because the fox is smaller and poses an opportunity, as would a jackrabbit, a snake, or mesquite beans
And yes, across much of his range, the coyote is top dog, but only because he's bigger than just about anything else out there. At least, around here, that's the case. Coyotes tackle anything they can overwhelm with brute force, but rarely go after something bigger in stature without the help of a lot of their friends. Coyotes are great economists. They seem to have an inutitive understanding of those prospective food sources that offer more to gain than the energy expended to catch it.
There are 35,000 acres of Kansas farm ground here where I am the apex predator. It's my territory and the coyotes there compete with me for air. Ergo, I compete with them as well. As their competitor, I've yet to have one try to take me out just because I had it coming to me. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 24, 2006, 10:49 AM:
Hmmm? Can't argue with that logic.
I guess?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 24, 2006, 10:59 AM:
I have had both red and grey foxes killed by coyotes in traps, but never eaten.They have also killed mink, muskrat, and rabbits. Only ate the rats and rabbits and never mess with the coons.
In my area,I have never found where a coyote has killed a free roaming fox. Lots of other animals, but never a fox. In my opinion, I doubt a coyote would give chase to a red if they both met out in the open pasture. Now fox pups around the den is a different story. In my opinion, the reduction of red fox numbers is due to the coyote killing the pups. Maybe for food or maybe for sport. I don't know.
R andy
[ February 24, 2006, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: R.Shaw ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 24, 2006, 11:22 AM:
I still disagree with you, Lance. How many times have you had coyotes in your face threat bark howling at you? Even after you have revealed your self as a human? I have them following me back to the truck ragging at me. Coyote vocalizations are classified into three catagories,
Agonistic
Greeting
Contact
Agonistic is defined as aggressive or defensive behavior between individuals of the same species. I believe it should be modified to include perceived competitors because coyotes will issue "agonistic" vocalizations at other coyotes, dogs, humans, and wolves. In other words alpha competitors. I have never heard them threat bark howl at a cow or a deer or a rabbit.
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on February 24, 2006, 11:24 AM:
To answer Lance's question of "why" coyotes kill foxes, my geuss/opinion/etc is that a coyote has a personality and therefore individuality. Just like all people are different so are all coyotes different as well. Some more aggressive than others, some hungrier, some more violent, others are more passive, some more curious, some are more or less intellegent than the average. Just like some people are predictable and some aren't, so to are coyotes. Some people like routines, some people dispise them. Some people have hot tempers, some seemingly have no temper at all. Some think through what they are doing, others fly into action without any thought to what is happening (the syndrome knows as "here, hold my beer." ).
With people you can make generalizations, like people sleep at night, people are usually in a hurry to be somewhere else, people are afraid of their mortality, etc. It's obvious with those generalizations that it's not true of all people. It's also obvious that it takes a very large "test group" to accurately make those generalizations. How many coyotes must be in the "test group" to make up generalizations about coyotes? Why they do what they do. And how accurate is it, meaning what percentage of the coyote pop. fit into the generalization and what percentage of the time.
To me a coyote does what he does because he or she, as an individual, made the decision to do or not to do it, often based on many circumstances and experiences unique to that coyote in that situation at that exact time.
I'm not saying there aren't any generalizations, I think we can agree that a generalization of coyotes could be that "coyotes respond to distress sounds" or "coyotes circle downwind", etc. But often I think we try to create other generalizations about the coyote population that really aren't generalizations or atleast accurate ones, and then we argue about them. Like why will a coyote kill a fox?
In many of these discussions it seems the coyote has lost it's individuality. Well, until someone tells a story about a coyote leaving the stand for some unknown reason. Then that coyote is looked at as an individual because he didn't fit the norm, he didn't act as "predicted" by the coyote generalizations.
Edit: To quote Rich in closing. quote:
Why does it have to be one OR the other?
Coyote behavior is complex and varied.
later,
scruffy
[ February 24, 2006, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 24, 2006, 11:27 AM:
Just as an aside, How many times have you had an unseen coyote that cannot have winded you begin barking or howling at your jackrabbit distress? Happens to us occasionally. Are they warning/threatening a dying jackrabbit or a possible predator/competitor?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 24, 2006, 12:27 PM:
As far as killing a fox and not eating it, I don't know why that occurs? But, riddle me this, Batman?
Why would a coyote respond to my stand, wind a dead fox and circle me, against the wind direction, and steal my fox, if he had no intentions of eating it?
This, and variations have happened to me before; a coyote runs off with a dead fox, no different than a jackrabbit.
I have seen this and am convinced they do it to eat the fox. Why do they eat the fox, maybe because it is a delicacy, or who knows? But, they do kill fox, and who knows why, for sure? But, in some cases, it's to eat the fox. Maybe in other cases, it's a competitive territorial thing?
Why would they kill, and NOT eat a fox in a trap, I have no idea? Just a guess, but perhaps they want to run off and eat it in a safe place, and they can't do it if it's chained to a stake?
But, will a coyote eat darn near anything? As Higgins mentioned, certain times of the year, all they seem to eat is mesquite beans, judging by scat. They also eat the most disgusting ripe cattle offal.
An antelope jack and a gray fox are similiar in size. I have seen a coyote swallow a jackrabbit in about four chunks, and the fox probably wouldn't require many more?
Okay, I have never actually witnessed a coyote eating a gray fox. But, I also think they eat other coyotes, so that's not a very large barrier?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on February 24, 2006, 12:42 PM:
Maybe the coyote wasn't hungery (or hungry enough)?
Or maybe that coyote didn't like the taste of fox?
I like chinese food, the wife doesn't. Maybe some coyotes like chinese food, some don't. Oh, I meant dog not chinese, well, same thing?
(Edit: gets back to my point in my previous post, is a "coyote" an individual or a collective and do generalizations apply to this situation or is the coyote response in this situation to complex and varied for a generalization?).
later,
scruffy
[ February 24, 2006, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 24, 2006, 12:50 PM:
Leonard,
In my opinion, sometimes the coyotes just like to have something to play with. I have had visual attractors stolen by coyotes and taken some distance away to be wooled around. To remove the attractors took some effort too.
Never had it happen to me, but I know some trappers who have had coyotes rip a fox out of a trap leaving a leg and part of a shoulder behind. The fox is almost always found a short distance away. Intact minus the body parts. Some can be salvaged and some cannot. Just depends on the amount of wooling and the number of coyotes.
I do agree that some foxes are eaten, but I think some are played with. Like a cat killing a mouse and then swatting the dead body for a few minutes.
And after all this, I still can't answer your riddle.
R andy
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 24, 2006, 01:25 PM:
I recall an interesting event on the trapline that demonstrates the intimidation that coyotes put on reds. But, all it illustrates is that in this one instance, the fox was a-feared of the possibility of coyotes nearby.
I was checking traps west of Abilene in a sandy pasture where I typically could snag 4-6 coyotes a year. I found, in approaching one flat set, that I had cuffed a nice male red fox. Of interest was that I had caught it by the elbow on the front leg. Bend your arm at the elbow with your hand near your shoulder and imagine the jaws of the trap across the folded arm. That's how I had him.
In trying to figure out how I caught him like that, the closest we could come is to figure that he must have crawled into the set in a submissive, low-profile posture, eager to smell what the set had to offer, but not wanting to be seen by the coyote that left those odors. As he belly crawled across the trap, it fired. I used to have a picture of that catch, but I dion't know where it is.
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 24, 2006, 02:27 PM:
To follow up with what RandyS just said... I personally lost 3 red fox this winter to coyotes. All were found within 100 yards of the set (And shoulder) and only one of them appeared to have been eaten on at all (Possibly by other scavangers like possums). The other two had throat damage and the obvious missing shoulder... none were salvagable for fur.
All three murdered reds came from a field where I caught 14 coyotes in footholds and called/killed 7 others this winter (Nov15-Feb15). 100 acre corn field that adjoins an 80 acre bird preserve. Why a fox would even venture into that coyote haven is beyond me!
----------
EDIT TO ADD: I was not targeting fox & I ran traps at 4a.m.!
[ February 24, 2006, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Jrbhunter ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 24, 2006, 05:12 PM:
Damn, Jrbhunter,
That's a buttload of coyotes from one spot! I think the best I did from one tract was either 4 or 5 this season. Good job.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 24, 2006, 05:20 PM:
Mr. Higgins once mentioned a study, where they checked the stomaches of called coyotes, and a large percentage were considered "full".
Could it be they don't always eat a fox, or a rabbit, or whatever, but kill it just to kill it (because they're killers)?
They can only fill their bellies until they're full.
Krusty 
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 24, 2006, 05:24 PM:
Cdog- One set caught 4 coyotes in 5 straight days. My best day had three coyotes in the same field and a forth one across the highway. If it had been daylight I could've seen them all from one location!
(Okay now I'm just bragging.)
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 24, 2006, 07:38 PM:
Many good observations. Personally I've never came across a Red that appeared to be killed, let alone eaten by coyote[s]. Doesn't make it, not true LOL!
Seen a handfull of coon, that were caught out in the open by coyote[s] & killed...none eaten though. Caught a few skunks in traps. Coyotes eat, their belly's & ass's, is all.
I like Higgin's & Scruff's views.
Posted by keekee (Member # 465) on February 24, 2006, 08:03 PM:
Here I had major problems with coyotes killing trapped foxes, both Red and grey. Most of the time they did eat them, but sometimes they would just kill them and leave. But I would say 75% of the time they would eat them or part of them anyway.
I had some sets that were close to a road, so I was running the traps before first light. I had 6 sets in this one area, 4 of them could be seen from the road. I got up late one morning and was running behind, so I got there after first light. I had just started across the field when I heard this awful noise, I mean it sounded like one heck of a fight! It was coyotes killing a fox I had cought in a set. There was a small woodline between me and the set, so I couldnt see. By the time I got there the fox was dead and the coyotes were gone! It only took 3 min from start to finish.
I have had them kill just about everything but coons. Never had one kill a coon in a trap. I have seen were they walked around the set and checked things out but never botherd the coon?
I know here we have sure seen a drop in the foxes! I use to be able to go out on a good night and call and kill 5-12 Greys a night. Now Im lucky if I call and kill one a night!
I have also seen were the foxes are moving in real close to the houses, living right behind homes and right in town. Did not use to be that way here.
Brent
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 24, 2006, 08:09 PM:
By God, Rich, if I was to ever be content with someone disagreeing with me it would probably be you. Anyone else, and I might have to doubt their credibilty. You argue from too strong a position, so I won't even try. (You know you're sitting there with your next response all typed and ready to "submit", and I ruined it by not putting up a fight. Bwahahahahaha!!!!!)
Is it possible that a coyote might kill a fox, or a coon, or anything else for that matter and "leave it lay" to come back later and eat? Along the same lines as scatterhoarding in sqirrels? After all, they don't mind much how rancid the buffet is as long as it's available.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 25, 2006, 07:05 AM:
CDog, the reason that your fox got caught like that is that he was rolling on a dirty trap.
As for the other I have seen some intersting eating habits. I had 3 or 4 coyote pups in a pen last year and one died. I had seen that he wasn't doing well, but the others were, and they were full and eating well. But anyway, they ate the one that died right up to the back of his ears, not one other scrap left. And a year or two ago I trapped a mangy coyote so I threw it down a bank and reset. A few days later I noticed it eaten and figured birds, but looked anyway and the ground was pounded with coyote tracks. About a day later I trapped a mangy, skinny, hungry coyote off of his compadre that he had been eating.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 25, 2006, 07:53 AM:
Cal,
I won't dispute that suggestion. Can't recall is that trap was fresh out of the wax or not. It was very early in the first week of trapping, so it could have been dirty, or not. Hadn't thought about that.
As far as that cannabalistic mangey coyote, holy crap! Just goes to show you how nasty a coyote can be when they'd eat somthing the rest of us don't even want to touch.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2006, 08:52 AM:
What does "dirty trap" mean?
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 25, 2006, 08:59 AM:
I mean not scent free, Leonard.
It could have got a little lure on it, or blood from a previous animal, or a spot of grease etc..
Fox are the worst for digging at, or rolling on a trap that they can smell. They may not know it's a trap, but they will really screw with you if you have a bad or dirty trap.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2006, 09:35 AM:
Okay, so how do you sanitize a trap, in the field, after you caught an animal and reset it? To render it "scent free"?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 25, 2006, 09:44 AM:
You don't. Instead, the trap is replaced with a clean, uncontaminated trap and the dirty trap is pulled to be taken back to the shop and cleaned. Usually involves a kettle, water, a nice crackling fire, a couple friends and some cold beer. It's an ongoing process.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2006, 09:59 AM:
Okay, got it. But, I know how they treat traps, just didn't consider that it would be necessary to switch. I know I don't change hooks when fishing....
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 25, 2006, 10:36 AM:
Or...You can reset the 'dirty' trap in the catch circle where everything smells and add a urine post set a short distance away with a clean trap.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 25, 2006, 10:40 AM:
I do that often enough, usually putting the new set upwind of the catch circle so when the next one along comes to inspect the trash, he gets a whiff of the new post set as he circles it to check it out. Boiling and prepping traps is fun in the early fall when the bug is just hitting, but later, when there's checking and skinning to do, it becomes a hassle in an otherwise very tight schedule. And to think they call trapping a lzay man's sport.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 25, 2006, 11:35 AM:
I don't know where anyone got the idea that trapping was a lazy man's sport. It had to be somebody who never seriously trapped before. Getting up before daylight every day, seven days a week no matter what the weather is like or how sick you feel, just to run a 100 mile trap line isn't what I would call being lazy.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 25, 2006, 03:56 PM:
Most of the time you can get away with a somewhat dirty trap, but every so often you will get a wise ass coyote or fox that will roll on anything that isn't pretty clean, then you need to set another trap for that particular animal. Most of the real serious trappers have several hundred traps for that reason. That way they always have clean traps all winter and don't have time to stop and boil a bunch mid season. For cats it don't matter in the least. I just reset and go. For them catch circles and blood and urine just attract more. I have caught as high as 5 cats in the same circle in the same trap over the course of the season.
[ February 25, 2006, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2006, 05:07 PM:
quote:
For cats it don't matter in the least. I just reset and go. For them catch circles and blood and urine just attract more. I have caught as high as 5 cats in the same circle in the same trap over the course of the season.
I may not know a damned thing about trapping, but I believe the above statement. It isn't that a cat doesn't have a nose, they sure do, but they rely way more on their visual and auditory senses.
You know how some guys say that a bobcat is just a big house cat? A lot of truth there. Again, relating to my wife's cat, that cat is real kean on smoked ham and (of all things) beef jerky, the hotter the better. Now, he knows when you have these things out, and makes a big fuss, and I know it isn't because he hears me opening the package. He smells it and that's a dinner bell for him....and he's spoiled rotten. You really can learn something about bobcat habits by watching your cat.
From what I have seen of bobcats that (unintentionally) and accidentally wind up down wind, they sure act like they smell me, but they don't seem to care, as long as there is some distance between us. I don't think they are stupid, they are kick ass brave, and they just don't understand what a threat that a human represents. A serious flaw, nonetheless.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 25, 2006, 05:15 PM:
I am betting that Cal Taylor would LOVE to have some of that used cat litter that Leonard is just throwing away. My old friend Monte Dodson has been using that stuff for lure at his bobcat sets for many years. It wasn't long before old Monte was catching coyotes in his cat sets. Oh-Oh, another trapping secret has just been given away.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on February 25, 2006, 06:40 PM:
Very true Rich, but it is almost impossible to find cat litter that isn't scented in some way anymore. I pick up cat droppings both domestic and bobcat wherever I find them. That with a good shot of urine is a great lure. I posted a picture of another big tom in the cat forum.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2006, 08:39 PM:
You telling me I'm sitting on a gold mine? Ebay!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 25, 2006, 11:44 PM:
With reguards to why coyotes kill fox and do they eat them.From what i've seen about the only animal that will eat a fox or coyote is a opposum or skunk , and sometimes crows. I've seen fox drag off a dead skunk and roll around on it but not eat it. I had a fox in trap one time and a coyote grabbed it by back of neck and killed it. Also while out hunting i found dead fox on snow bank, thought another hunter shot it and left it lay. Walked out and picked it up and could not find any bullet holes. Took it home and skun it out and found fang marks on both sides of rib cage,must of been killed by coyote. Have also found raccoons the same way. Reason coyote kills them is cause he is competeing agaist them for food. And claiming his terriory. Also seen hunting dogs roll around on decayed animals, from what i found out about that is the smell of another dead animal that they rolled on is like what perfume is to a women.
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 26, 2006, 05:54 AM:
This thread has taken so many turns, I don't mind jerking the wheel one more time.
Although Cal's solution to the reason for Lance's elbow caught fox may be the right one, there are a couple others. I have caught a few coyotes by both front feet and I believed it happened much the same way Lance described. Maybe not for that particular reason, but they bellied-in just the same. Or perhaps the coyote made one of those arching mouse-catching jumps.I don't know. I do know it would be pretty difficult to catch one by both feet if it simply rolled on the set.
R andy
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 26, 2006, 06:03 AM:
quote:
Reason coyote kills them is cause he is competeing agaist them for food. And claiming his terriory.
And so we come full circle. Again, this is a statement that anyone whose called or trapped coyotes and foxes has heard. But how do we know it for fact, except for the fact that we've heard it time and again? I've also heard that turkeys will eat quail, yet scientific studies fail to adequately prove that anything of the sort happens, and no study that I've seen has shown evidence to support such a claim.
I consistently have caught coyotes and reds in the same places, and do so from year to year. Maybe those coyotes weren't at the meeting.
I've never had a 'coon killed by a coyote in a trap, and I have plenty of both around here. Caught at least a whole bunch in dryland sets and maybe more, yet I've never lost one to coyotes. Again, maybe my coyotes got up and went to the bathroom when the subject was raised.
I have seen several instances where I had very pissed off bobcats in traps with lots of evidence in the snow surrounding the set that a pack of coyotes (or one very brazen and excited coyote) had wooled this 'cat over pretty good before giving up. A thousand bite marks proved that things got a bit hairy for the skinned 'cat, as well, but that doesn't happen all that often for me in my area, so - as it is with coyotes and foxes - what I've been told by old timers or book trappers and what I've seen with my own two eyes and in my own personal and subjective experience simply don't always agree.
Fact is, I've been told that "coyotes won't kill for fun". That "they kill only when they need something to eat or to feed their young". Somewhere, in both those claims, you read a silent "always", and we all know that they say about that. What if I were to say "couldn't it be possible that coyotes do take advantage of an opportunity to kill a red fox or a grey or a coon or a bobcat or a mesquite bean or ..." simply because it's there, and that there relly isn't much more to it than that? Again, as I said earlier, and as scruffy kind of agreed with, does all coyote behavior have to generalized into absolute specific categories, attributed to all coyotes, or could it be that they're individuals taking advantage of whatever good luck and mother nature throws at 'em, and that sometimes they enjoy just doing something because it feels like the right thing to do? (Kinda describes "opportunist" pretty well, huh?) If not, then I've got some red fox tails around here that would make surefire coyote attractants.
In my never to be humble opinion, I think a lot of guys - especially newcomers to calling and trappers - limit themselves to the "always-es" (is that a word? If not, it is now.) and "nevers" then quickly find themselves encountering situations that don't fit the absolute generalizations they've been fed by well-intenionted mentors about an extremely complex animal and fail to be able to otherwise interpret the evidence before them that doesn't neatly fit into the mold they've built regarding their particular coyote in that particular point in time, given the conditions and circumstances afforded that coyote. A perfect example is those guys that read commentary about how howling worked well in a particular instance then go afield and howl using the same strategy, not realizing that the conditions for them are different than cited in the written illustration, then call the both author and howling out as fakes and bullshit when things don't work out every time. They simply haven't been taught to evaluate their entire situation and adapt their methods accordingly because they're hung up on supposed absolutes like always and never. Or, as Leonard would say, they allow their (supposed) education to get in the way of what they (otherwise would be able to see and) know to (maybe) be true.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 26, 2006, 06:17 AM:
The word [sometimes] fills the bill pretty well. Insted of "always" & "never" ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Sometimes, I can't see the forest for the trees, LOL! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 26, 2006, 06:38 AM:
Cdog911,
I agree with most of what you just said in above post. I often wonder if Stanley Hawbaker actually believed some of that crap he wrote concerning coyotes, and how important it was to keep yourself and all of your trapping tools absolutely scent free. Advice like that has scared many a young man from even trying to catch coyotes. I don't believe that the faulty methods taught by some folks was taught with good intentions. I once paid a nationally known trapper 300.00 to teach me how to trap coyotes. He was very careful to point out which direction the slack in loop of the dog should be pushed when setting the trap. I started out setting my traps that way and it took me awhile to figure out why some of my traps were going off in their beds. Gravity was taking over. The slack in dog loop was allowing dog to slowly creep out of the pan notch, which caused trap to fire by itself.
Coyotes do in fact act differently from one part of the country to another. Monte Dodson tried my method of placing fiberglass insulation under the pan. The pack rats started digging in his trap beds. Monte has better luck with pan covers he makes from pieces of old denim.
For coyote and coon, I think the three most important things for successful trapping are
1. location
2. location
3. location
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 26, 2006, 07:48 AM:
Rich,
Aboslutely correct on all three points. But just as important is the ability to think for oneself, to actually see the evidence before you and accurately interpret what you are being shown, given the present circumstances for your situation, and not relying on only what you read. Makes me think of a phrase I'm sure you recall from your pre-retirement days: totality of circumstances. You've got to look at the big picture and, if you're serious about being good at this, you owe it to yourself and the prudent use of your own limited time to learn as much as you can about your passion.
It might sound funny, a writer encouraging prospective readers to only place a limited amount of faith in the written word. But it's important for the "consumer" to take what he or she reads into consideration, compare that with their own experiences and what they know to be true, and only then should they draw a firm conclusion.
I guess that we "easterners" - 2dogs, you, and me - are the only ones up this early on a Sunday morning. Then again, up to now, I figured that since I get up early on Sunday morning, and all the people I see getting their papers when I go out to get coffee are up, and no one offers me anything to refute my impression that since I and they are up, then all people must be up early on Sunday morning, that my generalization that humans get up early on Sunday morning, and all at the same time, might be flawed. (I'm such a smart ass. But, I couldn't resist.)
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 26, 2006, 07:50 AM:
Very good post Lance. And quite probably at one time or another most "sometimes" scenarios have or will be played out by a coyote.
The fact remains that "competition" is a driving force in the behavior and personality of the coyote.
They begin life competeing with their siblings for Mom's teat. They compete outside the den for regurgitated scraps from the adult. They compete for toys at the den and compete for the adult's attention. The puppies that emerge as dominant aren't neccessarily the most competitive, they are the strongest and most aggressive. They all appear to be equally competitive.
Danny's contribution to my video demonstrates that the Swift fox puppies that he taped appear to behave the same way.
The documentary on coyotes that Mike Jaeger was involved with is a primer on competition. They filmed an otter emerge with a very large fish from a 3 or 4 foot hole in the ice over a river in Yellowstone. A coyote charged in and the otter dropped into the water with the fish. The coyote circled the hole trying to take the fish. Two other coyotes joined in and eventually one stole the fish and ran off with it. The other two coyotes gave chase and for the next few minutes a serious game of keep away ensued until finally the fish was torn in half with two coyotes running off with a piece and the third was just SOL.
I believe that competition is one of the at least five reasons a coyote comes to the call and I believe that a coyotes recent experiences regarding competition influence a it's approach to the call.
Competition is a major influence on coyote behavior on all social levels with fellow group members, all other coyotes, and all other competitors regardless of species.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 26, 2006, 09:11 AM:
Okay, I'm going to get the paper.... Figure that one out?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 26, 2006, 10:04 AM:
OK Leonard,
if you were Brit you would wrap your fish in it.
If you were in Abilene you would roll it up and whack Lance across the nose with it.
If Nancy weren't around you would peruse the personals looking for "Hot young Asian chick seeking older Sugar Daddy"
OR
You may just cut financial corners and line your Depends with it. LOL
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 26, 2006, 10:05 AM:
And then again, you just might want to read the damn thing.
Kinda like discussing coyotes, Huh?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 26, 2006, 12:47 PM:
I was alluding to the fact that I posted at 9:11 A.M. west coast time. Hardly early anywhere, except Hawaiian time zones? Due to the Olympics running to 11:30 every night and getting to bed a little too late.
Still have not figured out the difference between "Ice Dancing" and "Pairs Figure Skating"? Nor have I been able to understand why we paid Bode Miller's way to Italy so he could party, instead of winning medals? But, that's just me.
You know of course, that the Sunday LA Times is about a three pounder, right? Keeps me busy.....and that's just dragging in the house; in stages, of course.
Lance. Thanks for validating my preconceived notion that so called: "mid westerners" are actually "easterners".
.... then I wrap my fish. Or, line the Iguana cage, whichever comes first? LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 26, 2006, 12:55 PM:
Ha! Every example you gave was intraspecific - coyote versus coyote. I'd never argue that for obvious and well documented reasons. But, interspecifically speaking, I'm just not convinced that the coyote views the fox as a competitor that needs killing for only that reason, versus opportunism or recreation.
Oh, and glad to see you guys finally got up. Hated to be talking about you while you were away.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 26, 2006, 12:58 PM:
quote:
Thanks for validating my preconceived notion that so called: "mid westerners" are actually "easterners".
Leonard,
Uhhhh,... BULLSHIT!!!
We're not westerners. And we're damned sure not easterners. Some call us midwesterners, but if you live here, you consider yourself a cut above. Stand alone classification. Your confusion is understood, and your apology is accepted.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 26, 2006, 02:12 PM:
"I was alluding to the fact that I posted at 9:11 A.M. west coast time. Hardly early anywhere, except Hawaiian time zones? Due to the Olympics running to 11:30 every night and getting to bed a little too late."
-------------
Congratulations Leonard, I had no idea that you competed in the special olympics.
Lord, I apologize for saying that right up there.
Please be with the starving pygmy's-Amen
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 26, 2006, 02:20 PM:
Higgy,
competion huh? I'm glad you cleared that up for me. And to think that all of these years I have believed that coyotes killed fox for same reason as they kill cats-----They taste kinda like chicken.
Posted by Jrbhunter (Member # 459) on February 26, 2006, 02:56 PM:
Here's an example of a double-front catch like Shaw described... this was probably one of my fox-killers.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 26, 2006, 03:06 PM:
Ya know, if he keeps his eyes shut reeeaaall tight so he can't see you, you ain't there. Them coyotes is smart!!!
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on February 26, 2006, 03:09 PM:
Rich, although I'm not sure what competion is I'm nevertheless happy that I was able to edify you to some degree.lol
Lance, Ha, what examples were only intraspecific? Coyote, wolf, dog and human? You're confusing me as much as Rich.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 26, 2006, 03:14 PM:
Nice looking coyote, Jason. What did he weigh, 35lbs?
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 26, 2006, 04:42 PM:
Rich,
All those coyote pups scarmbling for scraps are competing with one another - intraspecific competition.
The swift kits Danny provided you were competing with one another. Intraspecific.
The three coyotes taking the fish from the otter. At first, interspecific competition, but once the fish was liberated from the odd man out, there's no mention of the coyotes turning their aggression on the otter to eliminate it as a future competitor. Once they had the fish, the coyotes competed against one another for the free meal. Intraspecific.
The only mention you make of competition with anything other than their own species is in your last sentence, and I just haven't been convinced that it's as big a deal to the coyotes as it is a way for us to explain something we feel needs explaining. Some would say that the foxes die because of encroachment by the coyotes. Probably so. Coyotes come in. Fox numbers drop. The question remains: Is it because the coyotes are eating all the foxes, or is it because they both are attempting to occupy the same niche? And if the former were strictly true, how can I have coyotes and foxes both occupying this area without the coyotes completely wiping out the foxes?
Either that, or I'm just yanking your chain.
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on February 26, 2006, 05:03 PM:
Lance,
Perhaps those coyotes were nomads, tresspassing. So weren't concerned with killing the otter. Just wanted the fish.
Seen a documentary some yrs back. Shown a large nomad coyote, run[tucked tail & haulling mail] from another[much smaller]coyote. Who's territory it was on.
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