|
Author
|
Topic: what you think?
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted February 21, 2006 12:52 PM
I talked to a hunter, Yuma, Arizona guy, shoots birds and big game, mostly.
In a group, we were talking about Roadrunners, somebody had seem one, somewhere? What happened next was out of the Twilight Zone, as far as this kid is concerned.
Most in the group were probably younger than me, probably spent years watching Wiley E Coyote get pounded by the Roadrunner?
Now, it may be that a coyote will ignore a roadrunner, and maybe not?
I don't know? Now, I have only seen roadrunners in Arizona and California, but maybe they occur in southern Nevada and New Mexico, Texas? I don't know their distribution and some of us don't know much about them, at all.
But, what's the answer? I'm taking a poll. Is a roadrunner totally safe from a "stupid" coyote? Guesses welcome.
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
|
posted February 21, 2006 01:52 PM
I've only seen one type of roadrunner in person. And if that roadrunner has a six pack 440 or dual quad 426 hemi, a wing, and a good set of goodyears I don't think the coyote will catch it. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) Mopar.
later,
scruffy
[ February 21, 2006, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
--------------------
Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted February 21, 2006 02:08 PM
Since the roadrunner is another predator, a competitor, I doubt that the coyote considers it prey. I would bet that it would kill one at any opportunity as does other meso-predators.
Ray E from the club went calling with me a couple weeks ago and we stopped by his parents home for a short visit. They feed about 50 lbs of birdseed a month to the critters in their yard. A few days earlier a covey of quali came into the yard and as they kicked and scratched at the scattered seed a roadrunner sneaked into the yard and laid down next to the corner of a campershell. When a quail ventured too close the roadrunner darted out and grabbed it, killed it instantly and ran off with the quail in it's mouth " topknot hanging out one side and the feet hanging out the other".
Kinda surprised me. I didn't know they killed prey that big.
IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted February 21, 2006 03:02 PM
That's kind of interesting all by itself, Rich. I always assumed they ate small rodents and lizards, maybe a small snake? Never thought of birds?
We have some in the quarrys both sides of town. I wouldn't harm one even if they weren't protected.
Good hunting. LB
PS, I surely do not think a roadrunner would stand much of a chance, in a confrontation.
[ February 22, 2006, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
JeremyKS
Knows what it's all about
Member # 736
|
posted February 22, 2006 08:14 AM
Ive never been around too many roadrunners before but have seen them in Northern New Mexico along with a few in the Texas Panhandle. Rich thats an interesting story about the quail.
Posts: 369 | From: Texas panhandle | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Locohead
World Famous Smoke Dancer
Member # 15
|
posted February 22, 2006 11:13 PM
How would a coyote know that a roadrunner is prey Rich? Seriously, I'm not trying to be silly or anything. I suppose a young coyote would have to see a roadrunner killing something to know that. Seems like it would be a unique scenario where a coyote would recognize a roadrunner as a competitor.
My guess is that the coyote would make every effort to fill his tummy with that correcaminos.
P.S. That quail story is awesome!!!
[ February 22, 2006, 11:14 PM: Message edited by: Locohead ]
--------------------
I love my critters and chick!!!! :)
Posts: 2219 | From: CO | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
|
posted February 23, 2006 07:06 PM
We have a few roadrunners here in Oklahoma, seeing more and more of them in the last few years and fewer and fewer Quail but after the beatings ol Wiley E. took I think I'll leave them alone.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted February 23, 2006 08:14 PM
To me, the $64k question centers around whether or not a coyote perceives another animal of a different species as a competitor, verus simply a potential food source. I mean, do you think a coyote catches and eats a red fox in his territory becaue he thinks the little red bastard has it coming to him, or because he's simply easy to catch and tastes like chicken? Wouldn't the coyote simply see the roadrunner as a possible meal and may not prey upon them too often simply because they're harder to catch than, say, prickly pears? Aren't we maybe giving the coyote a wee bit too much cognitive credit here when, in the past, many have steadfastly refused to accord the coyote any ability to think in the first place?
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted February 23, 2006 08:32 PM
I dunno? A little bit shaky ground on the roadrunner, but I think it is generally accepted that coyotes perceive foxes as intelopers on their territory....in much the same way they view OTHER COYOTES!
So, they kill fox, and eat them. They probably can't articulate their motivation with regard to roadrunners, but as the ultimate survivor, I think they probably take whatever they can get....although I have this nagging feeling about coyotes and Gambels quail, as discussed by Higgins. If there is some symbiosis going on as relates to RRs, I'd be surprised?
Good hunting. LB
[ February 24, 2006, 08:37 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
|
posted February 23, 2006 08:34 PM
I agree with Cdog, after all, a coyote will eat a snake in a heart beat, and snakes eat critters that a coyote eats, so isn't a snake also a competitor to the coyote, but I don't think the coyote cares! A coyote has to eat and what ever it catches first is what it eats!! If the coyote happens to catch a road runner that has a snake in it's mouth, which will it eat first, the bird or the snake?
I hear snake tastes like chicken too!!
--------------------
Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
Posts: 996 | From: Elizabeth, CO | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted February 24, 2006 06:44 AM
Why does it have to be one OR the other?
Coyote behavior is complex and varied. I don't believe there is any such thing as a hungry coyote in this part of the southwest, mesquite is everywhere and coyote scat is full of mesquite beans all year long. The coyote does not get dragged around by his stomach here. Just as he doesn't get dragged around by his penis as some suggest.
I see a territorial response to competitors, regardless whether they are meso or alpha to the coyote, that run or fly around scooping up munchies in HIS territory. The fact that most things are edible to a coyote is beside and part of the fact.
I've seen coyotes run ravens off of carrion and I have seen them tolerate ravens at carrion.
I've seen them steal rabbits from hawks. I wouldn't be surprised if they killed the hawk if they could catch it. I don't know if they would eat it.
I've seen them confront dogs and try to run them out of the area. I know that they eat small dogs.
Camanzind said that a rival pack of coyotes killed all but one of the puppies of an adjacent pack and a coyote ate one of the pups.
A coyote is the quintessential opportunist. If he can keep it down he will likely eat it. Regardless whether it is perceived as competitor, prey or a combination of both.
IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted February 24, 2006 07:55 AM
Rich,
I don't think it HAS to be one way OR the other. Our perception of those restrictions are of our own construct and I think it illustrates the way that researchers always seem to categorize things when, in truth, a lot of what we observe may just be random responses to ambient conditions. As with you, I've never seen a coyote I considered to be starving - even the mangey ones - and so I find it difficult to believe that the coyote would definitely consider a species other than his own as competition. That just requires a level of reasoning that I don't think a coyote approaches. Within his own species,... yeah. But I've never seen it with foxes and coyotes. I've always heard that a coyote will go out of his way to track down a red and kill it if the two meet in the coyote's territory. And I've seen the studies that show this phenomena when the two species' territories overlap. But I've also consistently caught a number of red foxes in areas heavily pop'd by coyotes and have never had one eaten while in the trap. Even there, I'm not convinced that the coyote eats the fox because his primary goal is to eliminate a major competitor as much as he sees an animal thrashing around in obvious distress and unable to get away. I personally believe that the relationship between the coyote and his various neighbors - thosehe eats and those he doesn't - just further illustrates the role the coyote plays as the consummate opportunist. His adaptability and variability are what set him aside from his larger cousins, the wolves, and explains his ability to survive, whereas the wolves' requirements are so strict and rigid that it results in increasing difficulty in adapting to changing conditions. This concept extands thru every aspect of the coyote's life, including his ability to survive alone or in a pack structure, urban versus the most remote rural regions, vegetarian or carnivore. The list goes on and on.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted February 24, 2006 08:35 AM
Lance, I believe it is two different things working, if we want to discuss fox, in particular. Just because a fox exists within coyote territory does not mean that a coyote will not kill it, if he has a chance.
On the other hand, as a food source, I can assure you that they eat gray fox. I have had fox stolen from me on stand, watched them do it and was not able to stop it, ...had I known what was going on?
You know, the coyote is on the top of the food chain almost everywhere. That's HIS territory and he controls it. I don't see why he would allow competitors, and I think maybe he can see what is and what isn't a competitor?
Good hunting. LB
[ February 24, 2006, 08:36 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted February 24, 2006 10:04 AM
Point well taken, Leonard, and I don't doubt that the coyote eats greys (and reds, too). But again, the question is why. Is it because he regards the fox as a competitior for the same resource - a vengeance sort of thing? Or, is it because the fox is smaller and poses an opportunity, as would a jackrabbit, a snake, or mesquite beans
And yes, across much of his range, the coyote is top dog, but only because he's bigger than just about anything else out there. At least, around here, that's the case. Coyotes tackle anything they can overwhelm with brute force, but rarely go after something bigger in stature without the help of a lot of their friends. Coyotes are great economists. They seem to have an inutitive understanding of those prospective food sources that offer more to gain than the energy expended to catch it.
There are 35,000 acres of Kansas farm ground here where I am the apex predator. It's my territory and the coyotes there compete with me for air. Ergo, I compete with them as well. As their competitor, I've yet to have one try to take me out just because I had it coming to me. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted February 24, 2006 10:49 AM
Hmmm? Can't argue with that logic.
I guess?
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
|
posted February 24, 2006 10:59 AM
I have had both red and grey foxes killed by coyotes in traps, but never eaten.They have also killed mink, muskrat, and rabbits. Only ate the rats and rabbits and never mess with the coons.
In my area,I have never found where a coyote has killed a free roaming fox. Lots of other animals, but never a fox. In my opinion, I doubt a coyote would give chase to a red if they both met out in the open pasture. Now fox pups around the den is a different story. In my opinion, the reduction of red fox numbers is due to the coyote killing the pups. Maybe for food or maybe for sport. I don't know.
R andy
[ February 24, 2006, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: R.Shaw ]
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted February 24, 2006 11:22 AM
I still disagree with you, Lance. How many times have you had coyotes in your face threat bark howling at you? Even after you have revealed your self as a human? I have them following me back to the truck ragging at me. Coyote vocalizations are classified into three catagories,
Agonistic
Greeting
Contact
Agonistic is defined as aggressive or defensive behavior between individuals of the same species. I believe it should be modified to include perceived competitors because coyotes will issue "agonistic" vocalizations at other coyotes, dogs, humans, and wolves. In other words alpha competitors. I have never heard them threat bark howl at a cow or a deer or a rabbit.
IP: Logged
|
|
scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
|
posted February 24, 2006 11:24 AM
To answer Lance's question of "why" coyotes kill foxes, my geuss/opinion/etc is that a coyote has a personality and therefore individuality. Just like all people are different so are all coyotes different as well. Some more aggressive than others, some hungrier, some more violent, others are more passive, some more curious, some are more or less intellegent than the average. Just like some people are predictable and some aren't, so to are coyotes. Some people like routines, some people dispise them. Some people have hot tempers, some seemingly have no temper at all. Some think through what they are doing, others fly into action without any thought to what is happening (the syndrome knows as "here, hold my beer." ).
With people you can make generalizations, like people sleep at night, people are usually in a hurry to be somewhere else, people are afraid of their mortality, etc. It's obvious with those generalizations that it's not true of all people. It's also obvious that it takes a very large "test group" to accurately make those generalizations. How many coyotes must be in the "test group" to make up generalizations about coyotes? Why they do what they do. And how accurate is it, meaning what percentage of the coyote pop. fit into the generalization and what percentage of the time.
To me a coyote does what he does because he or she, as an individual, made the decision to do or not to do it, often based on many circumstances and experiences unique to that coyote in that situation at that exact time.
I'm not saying there aren't any generalizations, I think we can agree that a generalization of coyotes could be that "coyotes respond to distress sounds" or "coyotes circle downwind", etc. But often I think we try to create other generalizations about the coyote population that really aren't generalizations or atleast accurate ones, and then we argue about them. Like why will a coyote kill a fox?
In many of these discussions it seems the coyote has lost it's individuality. Well, until someone tells a story about a coyote leaving the stand for some unknown reason. Then that coyote is looked at as an individual because he didn't fit the norm, he didn't act as "predicted" by the coyote generalizations.
Edit: To quote Rich in closing. quote:
Why does it have to be one OR the other?
Coyote behavior is complex and varied.
later,
scruffy
[ February 24, 2006, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
--------------------
Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rich Higgins
unknown comic
|
posted February 24, 2006 11:27 AM
Just as an aside, How many times have you had an unseen coyote that cannot have winded you begin barking or howling at your jackrabbit distress? Happens to us occasionally. Are they warning/threatening a dying jackrabbit or a possible predator/competitor?
IP: Logged
|
|
Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
|
posted February 24, 2006 12:27 PM
As far as killing a fox and not eating it, I don't know why that occurs? But, riddle me this, Batman?
Why would a coyote respond to my stand, wind a dead fox and circle me, against the wind direction, and steal my fox, if he had no intentions of eating it?
This, and variations have happened to me before; a coyote runs off with a dead fox, no different than a jackrabbit.
I have seen this and am convinced they do it to eat the fox. Why do they eat the fox, maybe because it is a delicacy, or who knows? But, they do kill fox, and who knows why, for sure? But, in some cases, it's to eat the fox. Maybe in other cases, it's a competitive territorial thing?
Why would they kill, and NOT eat a fox in a trap, I have no idea? Just a guess, but perhaps they want to run off and eat it in a safe place, and they can't do it if it's chained to a stake?
But, will a coyote eat darn near anything? As Higgins mentioned, certain times of the year, all they seem to eat is mesquite beans, judging by scat. They also eat the most disgusting ripe cattle offal.
An antelope jack and a gray fox are similiar in size. I have seen a coyote swallow a jackrabbit in about four chunks, and the fox probably wouldn't require many more?
Okay, I have never actually witnessed a coyote eating a gray fox. But, I also think they eat other coyotes, so that's not a very large barrier?
Good hunting. LB
--------------------
EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
scruffy
Knows what it's all about
Member # 725
|
posted February 24, 2006 12:42 PM
Maybe the coyote wasn't hungery (or hungry enough)?
Or maybe that coyote didn't like the taste of fox?
I like chinese food, the wife doesn't. Maybe some coyotes like chinese food, some don't. Oh, I meant dog not chinese, well, same thing?
(Edit: gets back to my point in my previous post, is a "coyote" an individual or a collective and do generalizations apply to this situation or is the coyote response in this situation to complex and varied for a generalization?).
later,
scruffy
[ February 24, 2006, 12:47 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
--------------------
Git R Done
Posts: 361 | From: south central Iowa | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
R.Shaw
Peanut Butter Man, da da da da DAH!
Member # 73
|
posted February 24, 2006 12:50 PM
Leonard,
In my opinion, sometimes the coyotes just like to have something to play with. I have had visual attractors stolen by coyotes and taken some distance away to be wooled around. To remove the attractors took some effort too.
Never had it happen to me, but I know some trappers who have had coyotes rip a fox out of a trap leaving a leg and part of a shoulder behind. The fox is almost always found a short distance away. Intact minus the body parts. Some can be salvaged and some cannot. Just depends on the amount of wooling and the number of coyotes.
I do agree that some foxes are eaten, but I think some are played with. Like a cat killing a mouse and then swatting the dead body for a few minutes.
And after all this, I still can't answer your riddle.
R andy
Posts: 567 | From: Nebraska | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted February 24, 2006 01:25 PM
I recall an interesting event on the trapline that demonstrates the intimidation that coyotes put on reds. But, all it illustrates is that in this one instance, the fox was a-feared of the possibility of coyotes nearby.
I was checking traps west of Abilene in a sandy pasture where I typically could snag 4-6 coyotes a year. I found, in approaching one flat set, that I had cuffed a nice male red fox. Of interest was that I had caught it by the elbow on the front leg. Bend your arm at the elbow with your hand near your shoulder and imagine the jaws of the trap across the folded arm. That's how I had him.
In trying to figure out how I caught him like that, the closest we could come is to figure that he must have crawled into the set in a submissive, low-profile posture, eager to smell what the set had to offer, but not wanting to be seen by the coyote that left those odors. As he belly crawled across the trap, it fired. I used to have a picture of that catch, but I dion't know where it is.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jrbhunter
PAYS ATTENsION TO deTAIL
Member # 459
|
posted February 24, 2006 02:27 PM
To follow up with what RandyS just said... I personally lost 3 red fox this winter to coyotes. All were found within 100 yards of the set (And shoulder) and only one of them appeared to have been eaten on at all (Possibly by other scavangers like possums). The other two had throat damage and the obvious missing shoulder... none were salvagable for fur.
All three murdered reds came from a field where I caught 14 coyotes in footholds and called/killed 7 others this winter (Nov15-Feb15). 100 acre corn field that adjoins an 80 acre bird preserve. Why a fox would even venture into that coyote haven is beyond me!
----------
EDIT TO ADD: I was not targeting fox & I ran traps at 4a.m.!
[ February 24, 2006, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: Jrbhunter ]
Posts: 615 | From: Indiana | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
|
posted February 24, 2006 05:12 PM
Damn, Jrbhunter,
That's a buttload of coyotes from one spot! I think the best I did from one tract was either 4 or 5 this season. Good job.
--------------------
I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic
