This is topic Are you full of it or jest joshin'? in forum Member forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on May 26, 2005, 03:34 PM:
Leonard,
I could of sworn I read you post something about a coyote not able to raise its tail above its back?!?! I tried to find the post to reread it before posting, but I couldn't find it.
I watched a coyote and its mate one day running around in CRP and one of them was prancing about and flying around his tail like a flag. 2 weeks earlier we'd killed a coyote out of the exact same spot.
P.S. jest joshin about the being full of it part...
But fer real for real I saw it happen
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 26, 2005, 04:26 PM:
I was halfway serious. I knew as soon as I said anything, some body would dispute it. Never thought it would be you. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
No, I had heard that before, and watched for it, but actually never have seen a coyote with his tail in the air? Learn something new every day.
BTW can you prove it? LB
Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on May 26, 2005, 04:37 PM:
LOL @ prove it.
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on May 26, 2005, 05:12 PM:
Rich Higgins were are you?
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on May 26, 2005, 06:34 PM:
"Talk about your four door sedans...WOW!!!!!"
Nevermind. That's one of my kids' favorite lines from Scooby Doo. Anyway...WOW, it never occured to me to try to prove it. It's possible I have it on video, just not sure..I'll check ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
its been a couple of years since I've used the video camera, it had been about a year before AZ, but the sand there killed my camera and now its been almost 2 years. I really miss it!!!!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 26, 2005, 06:40 PM:
YOU ARE NOT SERIOUS, Danny? AZ has sand?
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on May 26, 2005, 06:51 PM:
For what's it worth, I suppose the tail posture is maybe in some way an indication of its mood. Maybe it's a communicative posture, I haven't a clue. (I've never seen a coyote come running to a call with its tail in the air.) I can say with certainty though, that the coyotes had "ZERO" idea I was in the area. (If that means anything) I happened upon them when I snuck into this area. I was more just observing.
They caught my wind rather quickly and split (tail down I might add) They didn't seem to be mousing around but rather just checking things out. Maybe they were hoping to find some new territri, Quien sabe?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 26, 2005, 06:55 PM:
quote:
an indication of its mood.
Yeah, like smelling buttholes, right?
Did you see a coyote with his tail over his back, or ¿no?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on May 26, 2005, 08:57 PM:
Maybe they are coydogs?...I don't see where there would be any difference than a coyote having his tail turned and pointed at his anal...This is comunication,telling the other coyote,the rabbit went down the hole!
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on May 27, 2005, 07:39 AM:
yeah, way above. His tail was curled up like a malamut, but it was more straight and flopping side to side in the wind. This conversation is silly. LOL
Of course it normal, you guys just havn't seen it happen yet. By the way, does a tree make a sound when it falls in the forest?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 27, 2005, 01:04 PM:
Tail position is an important communication source to the coyote. Generally the more submissive the behavior the more tucked the tail. Aggressive coyotes elevate their tail as a visual signal to enhance the aggressive display. In fact the black patch over the supracaudal gland is considered to be a target to aid in the sniffing ritual. The black tip also enhances tailwagging displays. Coyotes will elevate their tails during pre-copulatory behavior and scientists believe that is a reflection of the close relationship between courtship and aggression. That is also why coyotes will elevate the tail during play. Ronnie Robison sent me a video of coyotes killing a javelina and the two coyotes doing the work have their tails stuck almost straight up part of the time. I'm sure balance had a role but I'm also sure the aggressive behavior accounted for it as well.
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on May 27, 2005, 02:10 PM:
Well explained Rich ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on May 27, 2005, 03:07 PM:
Most times,if not always,aggression is shown with arched back,but then at times they will have tightly tucked tail,with arched back,this is showing submissive behavior, even though the back is arched...sometimes coyotes will raise there tail when,"group howling"...When calling coyotes in it would be very unatural for them to raise there tail...But in there natural realm of living,it happens as,"Rich just said"As a form of comunication...When a female turns her tail to the side... Thats another story ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ May 27, 2005, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Melvin ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 27, 2005, 06:31 PM:
Rich,
Why do some coyotes have black tips, but in other areas, they have white tips?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 27, 2005, 06:41 PM:
Tim, I've discussed this with several people in the past, with Mike Jaeger just last week. No one knows. I wonder, and I'm not afraid to look foolish and ask, but I've never seen an alpha with a white tip, and no one I've talked to has either. If the tail tips and patches enhance displays, perhaps the coyotes with a genetic predisposition to excess submission are aided by nature with a white tip? What do you think?
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 27, 2005, 07:03 PM:
I don't think I've ever thought about it in terms of dominance. Most coyotes I've observed, were either in a pen or a trap. Nearly all coyotes act submissive at that point. I've only seen a few trapped coyotes act aggressive once I walked up to the circle.
I've never had the patience to watch a called coyote like you do.
I thought it more might be a further subdivision of a species. Kind of like blondes, brunettes and redheads. Does color truly dispose them to act in a certain way, or do redheads have a more fiery temper, because they have been told about fiery tempered Redheads all of their lives?
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on May 27, 2005, 07:23 PM:
I don't think the white tip theory is correct.
I shot this male on 5/11/05. He came in very aggresively after returning my howls. He was on the ground dead at three minutes from the my howl. He came in from a low area over 500 yards out. He died at 175 yards when he stopped to pin point my location. As you can see he's got a white tip and a whole lot of other white.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 27, 2005, 07:49 PM:
Well, I've said this before, don't remember which board, or when?
It used to be, at one time, I could see a white tip and invariably, they all came from Arizona, most of them the southern half. I mean, it was almost diagnostic, if you were curious where others were hunting on any given weekend.
That started changing and it seemed that slowly, Iwas seeing white tips in most western states. Not many, they have always been the minority, but some were full adult males. As Tim said, I don't have the patience to watch them for indications of alpha behavior; it's shoot 'em and pick 'em up. Also, If I had an agressive coyote respond and killed him, I was not much on details....hey look at this white tip! No, that came later, at check in.
For some reason, I do like the white tips, they still seem unique, to me?
Good hunting. LB
PS, Danny and Rich. You guys will probably go blind, sorry. I just heard about it today.
[ May 27, 2005, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on May 27, 2005, 09:27 PM:
LOL
I could be reading into things...but are you refering the the superstition of spotting a dog go poop??? LOL
And what the heck does Mick Jagger know about coyotes anyway?!?!
oooops, Mike Jaeger, Dang that "Lysdexia"
Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on May 27, 2005, 10:15 PM:
Danny
That may have something to do with a perscription pill, if that's what you mean.
For your sake and mine, I hope they fix it soon.
Kinda ironic though.
Brad
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 27, 2005, 10:58 PM:
I agree Leonard, white tip tails, I thought, were merely a particular distinction of another sub-species? Thats all it takes to make a sub, or so my wildlife biologist buddy tells me, subtle color patterns, or body shape.
I have to make mention of the guys photo of that coyote, did you see the white "boots" on that thing....never seen a color pattern like that on any coyote Ive seen?
Posted by 2dogs (Member # 649) on May 28, 2005, 03:29 AM:
Of all the coyotes, I've seen. Personally I can't recall ever seeing one with a White tip. Seen some with a little "diry white" mixed in, but not all white.
Yellerdog,
Thats one pretty colored yote, ya got there.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on May 28, 2005, 07:06 AM:
Never seen a coyote that has a white tip up here. Pretty unique looking to me.
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on May 28, 2005, 08:42 AM:
Wierd Cal. We've got 'em down south too. Sometimes they are a black tipped tail except for the very very end that has a tiny bit of white. I can PROVE that.
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on May 28, 2005, 08:46 AM:
About 1 out of 10 or so around here has a white tip. I have noticed that on the younger coyotes with white it may only be a few hairs. I don't think however it has anything to do with whether or not they are more or less dominant as I have killed some I'm sure were the Alpha with white tips. Here is a picture of one such coyote. He was without doubt the boss dog.
Yellerdog,
That is a unique looking coyote.
Byron
[ May 28, 2005, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 28, 2005, 11:02 AM:
I agree with Byron. Sometimes, the white tip is only a few hairs, easy to miss.
I don't know what to think of Yellerdogs pic? I have never seen a coyote with a pattern like that, looks like some sort of hybred, but the color is not pure white, as most white tips are?
On the other hand, I have seen blond coyotes that were the same color. Heck, as I have hunted the perimeter of Death Valley enough, that is the only place where some of the coyotes, in July, are almost naked, like an elephant. What that has to do with the price of tea in China, I don't know?
So, we all agree, white tips can't raise their tails, right? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on May 28, 2005, 11:25 AM:
Tim, I have here 2 pictures of coyotes i caught in traps,one is almost pure white(Mange coyote)and the other is of an all red coyote which is bigger than most western male coyotes...Would you post these here for me?....Something different to look at...I will e mail them to you if you give me the ok
[ May 28, 2005, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Melvin ]
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 28, 2005, 11:45 AM:
Sure thing Melvin, just send them to me at tbehle@theriver.com
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 28, 2005, 12:17 PM:
Lee thanks for posting the pic and setting me straight.
I doubt that white tips are anything but a color phase, as opposed to a subspecies. I videoed three pups two years ago and one of them had the white tip. The other two were black. Besides subspecies are classified by taxonomists primarily by cranial features including dentition measurements. However there is so much intergradation among the subspecies that there is as much variation within subspecies as there is between them.
I have several whitetips on video, I need to go back and check them for white socks. Thanks alot Lee, now we have something else we don't know about.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 28, 2005, 03:15 PM:
Melvin's Pictures
I don't know if mange has anything to do with this coyote beeing almost white, maybe someone would have an answer to that?
Me, with the same coyote
This female probably is as large as the average western male. She is reder than any I have called or trapped so far.
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on May 28, 2005, 03:34 PM:
Thanks for taking the time to put the pictures up for me ,Tim
As you can see,this coyote is not fighting the chain..She is laying there as docile as can be,even though i am standing there taking the picture...I'm guessing this is the posture the coyote was in when Cal took the footage...Now for what reason would they want to remove footage like that?
Posted by Yellerdog (Member # 356) on May 28, 2005, 03:45 PM:
Rich,
Me setting you Straight? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
That's a good one.
I just thought I'd put that picture up to further stimulate the conversation.
BTW, that coyote did not have his tail up.
Not until he was on the ground dieing that is.
Then it's tail did a couple of twirls. And that was the only movement out of him. It was the first one I shot with my new .204.
Posted by Locohead (Member # 15) on May 28, 2005, 05:50 PM:
I know all that red fur isn't worth a dang but I think they are absolutely gorgeous!!! We get a lot of red coyotes out here too. I'd really love a nice red pelt like that one hanging on my wall!
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on May 28, 2005, 07:05 PM:
We get a lot of variations in color in East Texas. Most are a little darker though than the coyotes I kill out in West Texas and other Western states. I tend to believe the "Eastern coyotes" tend to have larger color variations than the different subspecies of the West.
Here is a picture of an almost white coyoite that a guy sent me from back East. I believe it was shot in Tenn.
Here is a picture of one we killed here in East Texas that was almost orange.
Same coyote after meeting a 60 grain V-Max.
This was a young male and he also had a white tip.
Byron
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on May 28, 2005, 07:15 PM:
Melvin,
It has been my experiece that mange will make their fur turn dull before it falls out then they look a blue color (skin/no hair).I will often start around the legs, tail, and back portion and then it works up over the intire body. We have had it bad here in a few areas for a few years. Hope it is better next year.
Byron
Posted by The Outdoor Tripp (Member # 619) on May 28, 2005, 09:06 PM:
Byron,
Let me be the first to congratulate you in advance on your next post. Senior membership is yours.
Yee-haw.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 28, 2005, 09:39 PM:
I shot a border coyote a couple years ago. I would have bet money that it was a red fox, died right at the base of a giant saguaro. Talk about out of place. Actually, I knew it was a coyote, as I squeezed the trigger, but running like he was, he did not look like a coyote. He was a bright rusty red desert dog.
Melvin's last pic is colored kinda like a red wolf.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Melvin (Member # 634) on May 28, 2005, 10:12 PM:
Byron, I don't think i have taken 2 coyotes that had the same color.They will run from almost black, to almost white and like the one above, and every color in between.
locohead you'r right, there fur are not worth much...even in prime condition...Maybe $12-$17 dollars for a good one.
I was in the Dotsero area in Colorado,up around the blue lake, observing coyotes.They all seemed to have the same color fur pattern"very beautifull coyotes"I would like to hunt up there someday and get a couple nice,good furs.
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