The New Huntmastersbbs!: Competitions

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 03, 2004, 02:26 PM:

Next weekend is the first of our clubs seven monthly competition hunts. Last weekend was the annual Arizona State Predator Callers championship. The two events made me recall the posts regarding competition last week and I wonder why so relatively few people do compete? Our club membership fluctuates between 300-500 yet seldom do more than sixty people participate in the hunts. There are four good sized clubs in the state and literally thousands of callers yet only 19 people signed up for the three catagories at the championship. Four in youth, nine in novice and six in expert. What happened to the good ol' American competitive spirit? The battle lust?

Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on September 03, 2004, 03:42 PM:

They probably saw yours and Tylers name and figured whats the use [Wink]

Posted by NVWalt (Member # 375) on September 03, 2004, 05:29 PM:

Rich,
For the most part the local clubs that have monthly contests just want way to much money for entry fees.I think 50-75 bucks just to enter a contest is just enough to keep me from partaking in the festivities. They are going to have the World Championships up in Elko this year and Ron Welsh and I are entering that one but its 250 a team or 125 apiece and for a world event I'll go along but they wanted the same amount for the state championships here and that's just too dang expensive for this brain dead coyote caller...NVWalt

Posted by keekee (Member # 367) on September 03, 2004, 06:08 PM:

I haft to travel if I want to get in a contest. I dont have anything local to compete in. We have a pool hunt were we all put up 50.00 each for the most kills, But its just a few local guys here. As far as I know they dont have anyting around here. But I have thought about geting some started! I just dont think there would be a very good turn out. I wish we had some though.

Kee

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 03, 2004, 06:25 PM:

Just nothing about a contest that appeals to me. Schedules, structure, having to talk to people, rules, yadda-yadda-yadda. I have absolutely nothing negative to say about the guys that get into it, but it's pretty much alien to my concept of an enjoyable hunt. I get all the competition and interaction with people I can stand during the week at work. Last thing I want to do is pollute my coyote calling with that stuff.

- DAA

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 03, 2004, 07:03 PM:

Walt, the state contest was a platform calling competition held at the Civic Plaza downtown, entry fee was only five bucks. Besides dandy trophies 1st place prize to expert was an 870 Express Magnum and a wooden presentation box of Modern Predator calls. 1st novice prize was a Bug Blaster Ghillie suit and the presentation box of calls. 1st Youth prize was a Ruger 1022. Thousands attended, you would think more would have competed. The club hunts are a $5 entry. Very affordable.
Dave, I don't believe the contests pollute my calling at all, no more so than my participation on this board. On the contrary, they add a dimension of camaraderie with like minded addicts that is more personal than the board. A competition instills an urgency to the hunt that is never present during a regular calling day. Check in on the last evening is a unique social event that is worth the cost of the hunt alone. Dirty, smelly camo'ed predator callers having their two days take checked, checking out what everyone else turned in, still pumped up, telling loud stories to an equally pumped up audience who in turn loudly relate their tales of win and woe. This the only way to get to observe so many different techniques and approaches in so short a time. I would call the comp hunts educational and entertaining but certainly not pollution.

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 03, 2004, 09:16 PM:

Rich, really, I mean no disrespect to contest hunters at all. But for me, what you describe, it's something I'd go out of my way to avoid. Just my nature, I guess. Anything even remotely resembling a "crowd", before during or after a hunt, I'd just dread that.

- DAA

Posted by brad h (Member # 57) on September 03, 2004, 10:19 PM:

To me it's good to hear someone with a positive attitude toward competitions. I've always had a good time in the ones I've entered. Since the "pilots" of previous years were banned, the playing field was level and everyone had a chance.

This year though, we had a ton of snow. Probably the first considerable amount of snow we've ever had during a calling competition since they're usually held in February. There was somewhere between 60 and 65 2-3 man teams at $20 per man. First place was something like $700 or $800.

These are 24 hour competitions. The previous two years were won with either 3 or 4 coyotes. This year two teams tied for first with 10 each, second 8, and third 6. All owned, had access to, or had previously talked about shooting coyotes off their snowmobiles. Some even admitted to using them during the tourney after the fact. This problem can't be fixed, and it won't change.

So, I'm done with this local gang bang, which is too bad because I really enjoyed the hard core day of non stop calling when things were at least close to fair. I'll stick with the gatherings for now and look into other options when the kids are older.

Brad

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 03, 2004, 10:29 PM:

Dave, I understand where you are coming from, and it's fine. Some people like different things, and they generally know right away.

However, just because it sounds like something we may not like, you should understand that the check out and check in is not any great ordeal, and the rest of the hunt is anything you want to make of it. If you have an interest in winning, you hustle, or if you are just along for the ride, take it at a more leasurely pace.

But, Rich is right about the interesting things you see, ideas you get, and the conversations you might overhear. Checking out the rigs and the gear are worth the price of admission, alone.

There is no doubt that these type of hunts help you become a better hunter. If you define a better hunter as one who kills a few more animals, per hunt. You learn real quick what is of benefit, and what is a waste of time and effort.

No, it's not your easy going hunt, and it's hard work, rather than laid back and casual. Even on a personal level, there is success. You don't have to win the hunt to improve your skills and gain a higher level of satisfaction.

Dave, you sound like you know your mind, and that is your choice. But, maybe you have a concept that isn't altogether accurate? Some guys just hate contests and make them sound like they aren't worthwhile. I actually enjoy them, but not as a steady diet; they are a lot of hard work, and wear you out. Young guys have the stamina, but old guys do all right, too. And, they don't have to work as hard.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Bill (Member # 49) on September 03, 2004, 11:39 PM:

Rich,

There is a big difference in what sounds will sway the judges and win a calling contest as opposed to what sounds will bring in coyote to the gun in the field. Caller skills range from terrible to terrific. Even a terrible sounding calling will have some degree of success over time in bringing predators to the gun. But it will never win a calling contest. Judges in calling contests want absolute reproductions of whatever sounds the caller may be instructed to imitating in his series, weather it be a bark, growl, yip, kiyi, howling, jack rabbit, cotton tail moans, screams etc. Sour notes are deductions. If the caller is not very skilled to begin with chances are good they won’t place. Of the 300-500 members you referred to I would imaging that only 10 % would be skilled enough to have true expectations of winning a calling contest. I would also expect less than 50 % of your membership actively participates in the seven monthly hunts. At least those are the percentages that would be in the ball park for my club. I find myself with the majority here and therefore don’t compete in calling contest. However I can call coyotes and do enjoy the Three Club hunt. I’m looking forward to the next one and hope to see you there. And good luck on the club hunts.

Bill

Posted by NVWalt (Member # 375) on September 04, 2004, 04:38 AM:

Rich,
After reading your reply it makes me wonder why more of you area guys don't compete.Affordable entry fees and comradery are good things.Just here in Nevada the fees are just too much,If they were 20-25 a person for the local club hunts I would take part in more of them as I love cometitions of any sport.And to do well at a coyote hunting contest does indeed take more work than most people realize, it's hard and fast going but enjoyable to those that like it...NVWalt

Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on September 04, 2004, 07:11 AM:

I am one of those guys who wouldn't drive across town to enter a contest. While I have a ton of respect for the guys who do well at them, it just doesn't appeal to me as an enjoyable hunt. I get enough of the rush, competition, and being around people in my everyday life to keep me satisfied. I want to hunt hard and get away from people and schedules when I'm out. I wouldn't want to feel I was wasting precious contest time if I spent a few minutes glassing a nice buck or took the time to snap a few pics of a dead critter. For the most part I even avoid being active the small local hunting related clubs (Archery, rifle range, wildlife clubs, etc..) The ones I am a member of I just mail in my dues and pretty much avoid any type of meetings and such.

Like I said, I totally respect the guys who enjoy this type of thing. Its just not for me.

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 04, 2004, 07:34 AM:

Bill, you are absolutely correct right across the board. The platform callers were very well practiced and the veterans sounded very similar, conforming to the style and sounds that are proven winners. The winner of the expert division told me that he tries close to one hundred JC reeds before he selects one for the contest. The guy had the competition technique mastered. I hadn't been to a platform competition in 30 years and it certainly has changed since Jim Daugherty's style was winning them. Howling and other coyote vocalizations were not used back then. Everyone at this contest used howls during the freestyle series, including the little kids. You are correct also in as much as it isn't neccesary to call coyotes.

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on September 04, 2004, 08:20 AM:

I see contests like dirt biking... I could have entered an "off road" race nearly every weekend, but why would I pay to do something I could do for free, and with so many limiting rules?

I can now hunt as long as I want, 24 or 48 hrs if I felt like it (when and if legal).
And I have a good calling partner, and friend, in my brother. I don't need any more comaraderie than that, I actually started varmint hunting to spend time with my brother not to hunt.

I am like Keekee, and like Walt to an extent too.
We do not have a club, we have no local contests (calling or hunting), and of the contests I have heard of, I could not afford to travel to them or to enter.
It would be easier and cheaper for me just to send the Higgins' or Cal Taylor my $50 entry fee, and stay home hunting in my own area.

See that is the other part of why I chose not to contest hunt, I don't feel welcome in these other hunter's areas on a regular Saturday, and most certainly not for a "professional" hunt.
Like in my state we have a east/west rivalry thing going, but it is a one way deal... the guys who live on the eastside of the mountains (in the sage scablands) do not like us travelling to their side to hunt, and we on this side welcome the eastsiders with open arms (but they wouldn't come hunt here on a dare, right Curt?).

Also for me, I hate to lose, if I am going to enter a race, it's because I believe I could win.
I know I cannot win a contest now, so why bother?
The amount of "dismal failure" I have to swallow on a regular day is hard enough, I am not sure I could take a more concentrated form of failure iced with someone elses success.

Krusty

Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on September 05, 2004, 11:54 AM:

I've always liked competition, I'd sure like to try it sometime [Smile]

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 05, 2004, 12:09 PM:

Go for it Danny. It's not too late for you. Old dogs CAN learn new tricks. [Big Grin]

Posted by onecoyote (Member # 129) on September 05, 2004, 12:12 PM:

Nobody out here to compete with Rich. Old dog huh lol. [Wink]

Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on September 05, 2004, 04:15 PM:

I've competed in a few meaningless competitions whether it was coyote hunting, turkey shoots, NRA courses, etc.

The biggest difference in competing and shooting/hunting for fun and self satisfaction is pressure. The pressure is on. When I have someone from out of town in to whack a coyote or two, there is a pressure felt that you must place a coyote out in front of your visitor moreso than if you were just out diddling yourself. That single called coyote is a tad more exhilerating and the pressure is removed.

Same with competition hunting except that the pressure extends for as long as 2 days up until the time the horn sounds and the toll is counted.

I know some pretty darn good shooters that could outshoot me on any given day. Put a dollar bet on them and I'd bet against them every time. They can't handle the pressure and weren't built for it.

I may catch hell over this, but I lean towards the belief that those who were never very competitive at a young age are basically the Nay Sayers on anything competitive in the hunting arena.

Posted by Norm (Member # 240) on September 05, 2004, 04:39 PM:

Jay, you won't catch hell over your comment, but I don't think competing at a young age has much to do with it...

I played 4 sports all the way through high school..trapshoots on the weekends. played on sports teams in the military, played on a softball team that was ranked in the top 5 within the USA; shot 3d competition in ME and NH;

yet, have not participated in any of the monthly club hunts... my reason is more based on the fact that I can not use the hunting style that I prefer(e.g. electronic caller)... The other is that I also find it challenging to take both days of the weekend to hunt... So I choose to not participate... that doesn't mean I won't consider it some day...

Again, I don't think the amount of competition as a youngster has an influence on participation... it may have an impact on the ability to concentrate when the pressure is on... [Big Grin]

Posted by Bofire (Member # 221) on September 05, 2004, 05:37 PM:

Krusty,
I considider every contest a "win". Seems to me I met you and Red at one.
It is not winning or losing, it the friendship, talk, learning.
Sharing things with people with like minds, but not too like.
I have only been to one it was great.
Rick and I sent in the entry to the Gem State contest in January, today. I am really looking forward to it.
Carl

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 05, 2004, 07:10 PM:

Justice William O. Douglas said that
"It is required of a man that he share the action and passion of his time, at peril of being judged not to have lived."
I have competed in all of my "passions" during my lifetime. Archery, Kenpo karate, power lifting, shooting sports,
swimming, and predator calling.
Competing, training or practicing with the best of any sport has always improved my knowledge and abilities in that sport far beyond what I managed by "diddling myself"(there's a visual that's going to be hard to shake. Thanks, Jay)
Competition is a guage of the status of your skills and abilities compared to your peers. A guage of your mettle under pressure. A guage of your commitment to your endeavor. And a conduit to information and techniques that would not be available to outsiders.
In the karate studio a saying was "everybody looks good until they get hit" and that is true of all competitions in which one must perform under pressure.
Competition brings out the best and the worst in people. Adrenaline rushes are never boring.

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on September 05, 2004, 07:35 PM:

Jay,

I feel pressure, the pressure to finally produce some kind of dead critter eats at me when I am not hunting. LOL

It's getting harder and harder to show my face around here anymore.
Being held up as the most shining example of "a big loser" didn't sit too well with me.

...can it even make Krusty an overnight expert?

I am a competetive person, and I do not like to lose.
I will compete, when I can be competetive.

Until then it's a battle against myself, and the yippers. (I got that battle lust y'ere asking about Rich)

Bofire,

I am glad for you, that you can see a loss as something other than losing.
I am not like that, when I was racing if I came in second I considered myself "the first loser to cross the finish", I did not consider it victory by any stretch.

Yes I did meet some friends at the Rendezvous/contest, and my brother got 2nd place and a trophy.
I did not participate in that contest, I did not even have a hunting license then, and had only been calling one time.

I have only been to the one, and I have mixed feelings about it.
It was free, local, less than a dozen "teams" were invovled.

BUT I'd rather spend the weekend at Bear Camp, or out just hunting with my old friends.

Guys,

The "dismal failure" line, was a tounge in cheek joke at LB's expense, not a negative comment.

Krusty

Posted by Jay Nistetter (Member # 140) on September 05, 2004, 08:50 PM:

Krusty,
Your problems in getting fur down sounds to me a flaw in your method or approach. I have read intermittant text of your plight (if I may call it that). It seems to me that you should seek out a mentor for some visual, hands on training. That, in my opinion, would make a world of difference and help you on your way to become a more successful caller.

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on September 05, 2004, 10:30 PM:

Jay,

If I thought that entering a contest would help me find a mentor I might consider it.
But it's not like racing, where I can just try to tail some fast guy, until I learn the fast line around the track.

LOL Can you imagine trying to follow some other team around trying to learn how they do it?

...hey wait, maybe that is a good idea?

Krusty

Posted by keekee (Member # 367) on September 07, 2004, 06:07 AM:

Competing is good, I think. I started calling in turkey calling contest when I was 10 years old. I moved up to adult calls when I was 16. It took a lot of practice and time. If you wanted to run with the big dogs you had to learn the ways and change with the contests. I started at a local level and went all the way to the grand nationals and us open, world, world all around. I won several state titles. I get tiered of just turkey calling so I got into elk, deer, duck, goose, predator, ect.

It tought me alot! It tought me to be humble, concentrate, practice, And alot of other things. I meet some great people, all over the country, I got to travel. Hell....It even got me started building calls, doing sport shows. It done alot for me! Nuthing beats the RUSH you get up on the stage with thousands of people there and you can hear a pin drop as you call. I got to meet people I would have never had the chance to meet, and would of never got the chance to set down to dinner and talk hunting with. I got to hunt with some of the best turkey hunters in the world.

Calling contests for predators would be awsome! I think contest can teach you alot! And open doors for people that would not of been open if they had not desided to compete! It would be just like any other contest though, it would be alot of work, but worth it I would think!

Kee

Posted by pup (Member # 90) on September 07, 2004, 09:38 AM:

I think that Byron hit it on the head. I would base my decision on whether or not to go on how much gas money Tyler and Robb could scrape up. The more stands those two make the harder it is to beat them. Tyler has sat around with enough coyotes in front of him, that it is like sitting in front of tv with a joystick in his hand. The "puppet master", is automatic.
Which brings up my next point on competitions, the team that can get some good techniques in hearing distances of some yotes, will win the show. That is too much luck to try and bet on, but is fun to do, at least once a year.

We went for the first time last year, In SE Ok. Had a good time, won a little money, should of won more, but my pard and I looked like "Krusty and his first reader out there", We had six within one hundred yds and turned in one coyote and she was the seventh one we called and Onis shot her at 312. Oh well, she won the ugliest coyote so we got our fees back, hahaha..so much for good technique.

Anybody want to flip for lunch?

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 07, 2004, 11:01 AM:

Hiya Pup. Tyler won second place at the State contest using your Jack call that you made for him.

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on September 07, 2004, 11:50 AM:

Pup,

Interesting analogy... "looked like "Krusty and his first reader out there""

You guys musta been kicking some serious ass... I could read very well, at 4 yrs old. [Wink]

Pick out someone else to ridicule, huh, I don't find it funny, at all anymore. [Roll Eyes]

I have endured this "Krusty the big loser" shit as long as I can.
It has gotten to the point of being demoralizing, and I'd really appreciate a little slack. [Mad]

Just because I haven't killed a frickin coyote does not make me unintelligent. sheesh!

Krusty

Posted by pup (Member # 90) on September 07, 2004, 05:24 PM:

Krusty,

Just an analogy. We were struggling and that is what you have become infamous for. Lighten up, sheesh, if ya didn't want the attention, back away from the fire. When you shared every sad episode of "calling in Krusty-ville", we laughed, cried, and even shared a sad tail of our own, but when you take a jab we grin, that is what standing around the campfire is all about.

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on September 07, 2004, 05:40 PM:

Cripes Kristy,

You don't need advise, you sound so much like a soap opera, you need a theme song.

May I suggest one, from my favorite TV show while growing up? The words seem to reflect your needs so perfectly.

In 1969 Johnny Mandel and Michael Altman wrote and recorded a song for a movie. The instrumental version went on to become the theme song of the longest running sitcom of it's time.

It's starts off:

Through early morning fog I see
visions of the things to be
The pains that are withheld for me
I realize and I can see . . .

Maybe you can learn the entire song, then come down and sing for us at the hunt in October?

Posted by pup (Member # 90) on September 07, 2004, 05:45 PM:

Rich,
I am glad and honored that he used mine, but it is kinda like handing Stevie Ray Vaughn a guitar, no matter what make it was the music he played would be sweet.

Congrats Tyler!!!! I'd like to put my name in the hat, in case Ol' Robb drags his feet any on being your pard.

later

pup

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on September 07, 2004, 07:30 PM:

Pup,

Okay I lashed out more than I should have, I apologize.

Trust me while you've been "away" I have taken more than my fair share of jabs, all with a grin.

I laughed off your friend Byron calling me a moron (which was his answer to my poking fun at him), Q saying I am like herpes, being drug around the mud for what someone assumed my political stance was (which they couldn't have been more wrong), and a fair share more name calling.

So to say, I can dish it out but I can't take it, is a flat out lie. A'ight? [Mad]

I just asked for a little slack, not to stop poking fun at all, and just on this one matter.

Is that too much to ask? [Frown]

Tim,

The I and the U are right next to each other, so I am gonna assume that was a typo and not a childish attempt at humor.

I don't need any advice... you are finally getting it.
I stopped asking for it on these boards a looong time ago, when I realized there are no black and white answers, only grey areas.

Maybe I could learn the song, but I am pretty sure you guys' "private dealio" isn't open to me. Or to many other members of this site, who unlike me, wanted to participate.
And as long as it was not open to all who wished to join in, there is no way I could.

To know that I had more than a few friends at home, wishing they could be there (maybe more than I did), would sicken me.

I don't have my 300 coyote antee, and other than pity I doubt there's much reason for me to have gotten an invitation, if I ever did get one.

That I know of, I haven't gotten any notification from Huntmasters, regarding the Huntmasters Hunt. [Wink]

Krusty

Posted by pup (Member # 90) on September 07, 2004, 08:11 PM:

Krusty,

Didn't know that you had opened yourself up again to the onslaught, what happened to the initial knee-kick reaction to stop loading the guns of others. Better to be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and prove it.

You want to go to a hunt, load the wagon and hit the trail. If I wanted to learn as bad as you say you do, I would be openly begging for the dates and the camp location, instead of downtalking for an invitation. You will learn more shutting up and listening to some of these guys talk around a fire , than you will with all these hypothetical scenerios you have posed from behind a board.
Heck, maybe in person that "moron" filter will lift, and one of 'em might even ask ya to sit a stand.

As far as you needing to appologize, thanks but no need in it, you didn't do anything wrong as far as I am concerned. I can't change the fact that your board name "Krusty" has become likened to the " Calling Challenged." The fact that you make predator calls furthers the legend. I didn't start or originally point out the phenom, but I do recognise it.

I don't know that if I was you I wouldn't bask in the title that has been bestowed. It seems that in this little weird family way you have been accepted.

later
pup

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on September 07, 2004, 09:23 PM:

Pup,

See it just goes to show you're not paying attention, or not up to speed.

I am not making calls anymore.

Hassles from guys like you, who think woodworking and hunting are somehow related, got to be more than I could take (among other hassles).

Feel better now? You can put the "legend" to rest, and unbunch you panties.
Don't worry, I won't be your competition anymore.

And for my calls effectiveness and quality, they stand on their own merits, and many coyotes, cats, and bears have responded to them.
I do not know of a single dissatisfied owner.

Basking in the title of "loser" is not something I relish, accepted or not. Rookie of the Year, Grand Champion, Master Class Racer... these are titles I could get behind, and some I have had in the past.

I am better than "a loser", I know it.

I coulda kept my mouth shut and never said how long or hard I have tried, but I hoped that I could lnspire others to keep trying, not to be ridiculed.
If I have inspired one guy to keep at it, it's worth all the bull**** I have gone through over it.

Sorry Rich, it was not my intent to sidetrack this thread.

Krusty

[ September 07, 2004, 09:25 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]

Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 07, 2004, 09:26 PM:

Pup, I don't mean the field competition with Robb. I mean he used your call to win at the state calling championship. Platform calling in front of an audience and judges. Competitors spend a great deal of time tuning reeds and tweaking their calls. Tyler used yours just as you made it for him. This is getting trampled by Krusty's bullshit. I'll call you tomorrow.

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on September 07, 2004, 11:13 PM:

Rich,

I have made several attempts to keep this thread about competitions, and even started a thread where those who felt like, could poke some fun at me.

Besides curb my anger (which is sometimes impossible) I dunno what more I could have done.

I guess Pup, and I, both have a problem with having to get in that last dig... and it's gotten both of us banned from sites in the past.
Probably will again in the future, eh Pup? (*near future if we keep this up, just bury the hatchet in me (joke) and let's move on huh)

The last post I had made in this thread (before the bs started again) was in regards to following another team around.
I have to wonder if anyone ever really did try that?

Congratulation's to Tyler and to Pup, that's a nice feather in the cap for both of you.
I wish you many more successes in the future.

Tyler,

What kind of booty did you recieve for getting second place? What was the entry fee? And where do you find out about those platform contests?
How similar is the technique you use in a contest, to that you use in the field?
Care to give us a play by play, of your set?

Didja get to "lay some lips" on the trophy girl?!? [Razz]

(my wife was usually around I never got to... that's my story and I'm stickin to it)

Krusty

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 08, 2004, 08:23 AM:

Krusty, you know, this thread, it's almost like Deja Vu all over again. I'm no one to talk, but this is approaching teeny bopper babble. Give us a break, okay? LB

Posted by Tackdriver (Member # 203) on September 13, 2004, 06:22 PM:

Well fellas, I dont know if I would enjoy a competition hunt per se' but I would-will join a club, once I get a little more "fine tuning" done with regard to my scheudle. This year has been so hectic at work that I could not give a club the attention it would deserve, so I am going to hold tight for the next little while and see how things shake out.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 13, 2004, 06:29 PM:

You're lucky, Tack. Some very good clubs are near you.

Good hunting. LB

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