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Author
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Topic: Glad they got this AR/.17/.223 thing all settled over there
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted January 12, 2010 07:24 PM
They are essentially a 25 pound dog, Ive always found that 25 grains of lead in the lungs or liver kill them quite easily? Maybe these Az coyotes are wussies?
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted January 12, 2010 07:36 PM
Yep the 223 is great on deer if you can get them to stand still long enough for the shot, but now throw a running deer or coyote into the picture if you miss the brain or spine its not going to stop..I guess thats why most have to use a AR and put as many rounds in the animal till it stops... I'm not saying a 17 cal. is a perfect round for coyotes but i'll tell you one thing i have'nt had to put a second bullet in too many of them either.. As far as deer go it could possably kill one but there are better choices for the job at hand...A animal all pumped up with adrenilen is a tough animal to put down weither it be a deer or a coyote...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted January 12, 2010 08:25 PM
Ive shot a lot of deer and an antelope with the .223, and I would never even think of aiming for the brain or spine. Just like a coyote, shoot them in the lungs-liver, and I can promise you they will not go very far, if at all.
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 12, 2010 09:54 PM
Well, look who answered the bell?
I'm going to error on the side of caution.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31454 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted January 12, 2010 10:03 PM
I shot this antelope with a 22-250 useing a 55 gr. Nosler, lung shot.. I tracked it for almost 2 miles...Second day i got another but i used my 6mm H.L.S. with a 85 gr. Nosler instead with no tracking required..I guess if i would of had a perfect shot where the antelope was level with me the bullet would of caught both lungs...Or maybe i should of had a 223.. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/House/antelope.jpg[/IMG]] 
[ January 12, 2010, 10:03 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Ridge Runner
Being a very careful person, I have always bagged my own groceries
Member # 3477
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posted January 13, 2010 02:48 AM
quote:
I shot this antelope with a 22-250 useing a 55 gr. Nosler, lung shot.. I tracked it for almost 2 miles...Second day i got another but i used my 6mm H.L.S. with a 85 gr. Nosler instead with no tracking required..I guess if i would of had a perfect shot where the antelope was level with me the bullet would of caught both lungs...Or maybe i should of had a 223..
You may not believe it tim, but with a regular cup/core bullet the 223 does better on deer sized game than the 22-250, the added velocity of the 250 expands the bullet to fast when it meats resistance the weight of deer. basicly rib shooting a deer at 100 yards with the 22-250 will give you the same results as the same bullet from a 223 that catches the shoulder at the same range.
RR
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Born To Hunt, Forced To Work
Posts: 31 | From: WV | Registered: Aug 2009
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
Member # 3530
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posted January 13, 2010 02:51 AM
I doubt AZ dogs are wussies. I am far from an expert but with the size difference of coyotes here in the northeast as compared to the south west I would feel more comfortable with a .243 for here. The discussion on the other thread did not seem to take into account the different weights and sizes of coyotes in the various parts of the country.
Posts: 2274 | From: New Jersey | Registered: Dec 2009
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted January 13, 2010 05:06 AM
Evidently; a piss poor lung shot? The lung shot deer I autopsied when using my .223, with the Sierra 52bthp match, all had a .223 entrance, and about a nickle sized hole on the other side.
For my predator hunting, the .223 is too much gun, in fact, I don't own a caliber that large, nor can I imagine needing one.
Posts: 1627 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted January 13, 2010 05:17 AM
Our coyotes here in Central Illinois range upward to 50lbs but often more in the 35-40lbs class. Yes, they can be a little tougher but a .223 is more than enough out to 300yds with the right bullet and a good hit. I often shoot a 22PPC with a velocity(loaded to 3650-3700fps)in between the .223 and .22-250. A 50gr V_max will jelly the insides of a big coyote at under 200yds at that velocity.
I've never shot or seen a coyote shot with the .17Rem but I think from what I've read and seen in the charts that it would do a good job most of the time as well and save fur. I would think bullet selection and shot placement would be more critical.
I really don't think for just killing a coyote you can beat the 6mm class of rounds. Most 7mm rounds are overkill but will definitely take them down! I'd love to have a 6BR or 6mm Dasher someday!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted January 13, 2010 06:20 AM
quote:
For my predator hunting, the .223 is too much gun, in fact, I don't own a caliber that large, nor can I imagine needing one.
I would'nt say its too much gun but unreliable in performance, you'll never know what the bullet is going to do comeing out of a 223.. Another thing to take in to account is temp., as the temp drops so does the vel., that 3600 fps screamer with -15 temps. is now a 3300 fps... Not much better than a 221 f.b. on a warm day...
The temp.s don't just affect the 223 its the same with any cal. and you will see that most guys prefer a bigger cartridge up in the colder climates. Problem is on a warmer day some of the larger cal.s canbe too much and on a cold day they are perfect and some not so perfect...
My 17 Pred. on a warm day is pushing a 30 gr. at 4000 fps and on a colder day its comeing out at around 3800 which is pretty close to a 17 rem. on a warm day. The bullet is still at the magic speed for killing coyotes...Another reason to keep a log on youre hunts, its a good way to find out what works and what don't and why...
17 pred. bullet damage;
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/SDDec-2009047.jpg[/IMG]]  http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/SDDec-2009048.jpg[/IMG]] 
Chest shot;
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/SDDec-2009049.jpg[/IMG]] 
[ January 13, 2010, 06:37 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5064 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted January 13, 2010 06:58 AM
quote:
Another thing to take in to account is temp., as the temp drops so does the vel., that 3600 fps screamer with -15 temps. is now a 3300 fps...
That's not necessarily true...
There are many powders availible today that are not nearly as temperature sensitive as others. I use H322 almost exclusively in my PPC's and have never had problems with lost velocity during cold weather. Even hot weather has little effect as long as you aren't riding your loads on the upper edge. H335 is my go to for .222 and .223 loads but it is slower than H322 and seems a little more sensitive. The hotter your loads are the more effect temps will generally have on them regardless of what powders you use and that's why I try to find the most accurate load that's not at the top of the ladder.
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted January 13, 2010 07:30 AM
Reguardless of anything else that we may or may not agree on................. That's a damn nice fur shed!!! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
Posts: 7578 | From: Under a wandering star | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 13, 2010 10:14 AM
Yeah, nice fur shed, Tim. The little woman keeps it homey, could use a few lace curtains? Can we see a shot of her tugging on the other end of those ropes?
......not owning anything but subcalibers, yet shooting big game with 223s? Som ting wong?
It helps to be an excellent shot on game. Has that been mentioned? We mere mortals need all the help we can get!
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 31454 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 13, 2010 10:17 AM
Tim just why is it that you never know what a bullet is going to do coming out of a .223?
I own a chronograph too and have killed deer, coyotes, bobcats, dogs and even a cow (intentionaly) with a .223 in temps ranging fron 100+ to well below freezing and I know what the bullet is going to do.
I've also killed critters with a 223 in a 14" contender pistol, bolt guns with 24" barrels and carbean AR's. I know the velocity difference and what the chosen bullets will do.
I've also owned a 17 Rem and cuzz owned one as well, we know what they'll do as well.
I will concede my 243AI is a quicker, more violent killer but the end result is the same.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 13, 2010 11:08 AM
Maybe you can enlighten us, Tom?
quote:
have killed deer, coyotes, bobcats, dogs and even a cow (intentionaly) with a .223 in temps ranging fron 100+ to well below freezing and I know what the bullet is going to do.
What is the bullet going to do and is it adequate for those applications listed above, in your estimation?
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 13, 2010 01:21 PM
Gladly Leonard.
First I've never lost 300 fps on temp changes or altitude or air density.
For coyotes and cats I want a bullet that will gell the insides of them and have found the 50 gr Nosler Ballistic tip to do exactly that with a muzzle velocity over 3000 fps and up to 4000 fps. Trick is to stay off the shoulder bone, which ain't that hard to do.
For deer and hogs I prefer the 60 gr Nosler Partition punched through the lungs and out the other side with a velocity over 3000 fps and I've never seen H322 be as temp sensitive as Tim suggests. My cousins ex-wife killed 12 or more deer with her 22-250 and a 55 gr Ballistic tip, never lost one but no blood trail. Good thing they never made it out of sight.
As for the cow, she was down and I had to shoot her. Had no ammo for anything but a 223 or 22-250 and figured the 55 gr FMJ in a 223 would do better than a 50 gr NBT out of the 250. It did. First shot to the head, she stiffened up and lost her faculties so I put a few more in her head. I didn't want her to suffer anymore but after the fact, I saw the first one did all that was needed.
Choose your bullets, your shots and all is well. The 243AI is more of a speacialty thing I'm playing with for long range and maybe a contest or two but I never felt I "needed" more gun than my little ol carbeans in .223/5.56.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 13, 2010 01:30 PM
Oh and for my 50 gr loads I use Benchmark and TAC with TAC begining to be my favorite. Neither are that temp sensitive.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted January 13, 2010 02:19 PM
I work up most of my loads in the fall and also dureing winter months and i use my chrony when testing loads and also use it later to double check loads when the temp.s change. There is a diffrence in the vel. of a cartridge if it is out in the cold like in youre rifles chamber when walking. Comeing straight out of youre pocket and into the chamber and then being fired i see no change.. Every year i see coyotes shot with all kinds of bullets and cal.. One day a guys rifle is doing real good one hole in and nothing comeing out and then a few days or a week later the bullet is blowing up on the surface or just makeing a big hole...
Last year one of the members of the group was noticeing this also so we went over to my place and ran his loads through the Chrony and found his 243 was shooting slower than what it was doing earlier in the year (warmer temps) useing the same load he has used all season.
What i mean by a bullet being unpredictable is just that, one day it works well and next day not so good.. It seems the ballistic tips in the 243 work better if run a little slower and a ballistic tip shot from another cal. works better if its going faster...
Tom i did'nt know youre temp.s get below freezeing where you live.. As for the H-322 i did'nt say it was temp. sensitive Nikonut said that..
speaking of temp. sensitive i thought that only applied to warm and warmer weather shooting..
I've never giveing it much thought since i only shoot in the winter and i use more than one brand of powder..
Can someone list some powders in the med. to med. slow range that are not temp. sensitive????
[ January 13, 2010, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted January 13, 2010 03:42 PM
quote:
As for the H-322 i did'nt say it was temp. sensitive Nikonut said that..
No... I said I've never had problems with temperature sensitivity using H322. It is a very stable, easily metered powder. One of the most accurate in the world when used in small cases like the BR and PPC's. Many, many benchrest records will attest to that fact.
If my reloads were jumping around velocity wise due to temps(high or low temps)I would be looking for new loads! Something is wrong there or the reloader doesn't understand the relationship of speed and accuracy, and finding the best sweet spot and not necessarily the fastest.
How is it that your buddies can even hit a coyote if their loads are dropping that much speed? Seems to me accuracy would be out the window...
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted January 13, 2010 04:26 PM
Most shots are out aways so either they use there bullet drop in their scope or just aim a little higher till they hit it..
I have'nt looked at any charts to see what the drop wouldbe but i don't think it would be a whole lot. As for accuracy alot of good loads that are close to max. actually shoot better with a reduced charge a gr. or so. For my loads i go for the powder that gives highest vel. and accuracy..
I've seen there groups shot from my bench and accuracy wise they are shooting really well..
edit to add: I checked the zero on my walking rifle the other day and it was about a 1" low so i dialed it in for 200 yds. To allow for the temp. changes..
I'll just have to get my chrony out and shoot two groups on different days with different temps and record it on my cam and maybe you'll understand..
[ January 13, 2010, 04:36 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 13, 2010 05:10 PM
LOL Tim, it was 4 degrees Saturday morning when I left to go calling.
As for drop, air conditions play a big part in that, maybe temp falls in there too, dunno.
My point is I've been shooting the 50 gr NBT's at a low velocity of just over 3000 fps to a high velocity of 4000 fps and the results are the same. One just works at longer ranges.
I work my max loads up in the summer with a chronograph and once max is found then I can work on tuning them in milder weather. I have seen velocity gains by letting a round "cook" in a hot chamber but still not 300 fps.
Interesting discussion if nothing else.
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jwelk
Knows what it's all about
Member # 2051
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posted January 13, 2010 05:32 PM
Tim, with all of your wisdom you should be a legend in practically no time at all!
Posts: 51 | From: oklahoma | Registered: Nov 2007
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Field Marshall, Southern Minneesota Sector
Member # 794
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posted January 13, 2010 05:50 PM
quote:
Tim, with all of your wisdom you should be a legend in practically no time at all!
Why would I want to..
Does you mother know you are playing around on the comp. when you shouldbe doing youre home work?????
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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jwelk
Knows what it's all about
Member # 2051
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posted January 13, 2010 06:33 PM
Always good for a laugh Tim.
Posts: 51 | From: oklahoma | Registered: Nov 2007
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Dan Carey
unknown comic
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posted January 13, 2010 07:27 PM
What was the subject again?
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