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Author
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Topic: An interesting theory
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted January 20, 2011 06:36 PM
I was on the road last night with a friend of mine taking him to area trapping supply dealer way out next to nowhere when we began talking on the subject of calling bobcats. He had an interesting theory as to how long he stays on stand, and prefaced disclosing it to me by saying I probably wouldn't agree with him, but I think it has some merit and thought I'd bounce it off the peanut gallery here.
He asked how long I sat on 'cats stands. Told him I usually get CADD - Coyote Attention Deficit Disorder - at about 20 minutes, so anything beyond that is really difficult for me to commit to. That, and the fact that no matter what I do, my back begins giving me problems at about the 20m mark. He said that his 'cat stands are roughly the same length, if that long. His reasons for not sitting the conventional 45 minutes is, in his own words, "Those old guys who tell you 45 minutes have always used hand calls. and, when you stopped calling to get your breath, the 'cat stopped, too. If you use a good sound that really gets them ramped up from an e-caller, and keep them moving, and set up to get them to an edge within shooting distance, there's no reason you should have to sit for 45 minutes to get most 'cats that are gonna respond."
So, what do you guys think? How long do most 'cats that come in take to make an initial appearance? For me, I've seen most of them within the first 8 minutes. Bringing them in close is another thing entirely, and the amount of time you wanted to commit was a matter of just how close you want them to be. But, as far as time to me first seeing them, if they're within responding distance at all, they usually appear along the edge pretty quickly, and using an e-caller, this guy's theory makes sense.
Comments?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Kelly Jackson
SECOND PLACE/GARTH BROOKS LOOK-A-LIKE CONTEST
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posted January 20, 2011 06:45 PM
I agree. I try and setup close to where I think a cat is. I should be seeing him within 5-10 minutes. About 15 is all I will sit, but I don't call loud when after cats.
They only time I sit longer is if it is the last stand of the day and I can't get to another spot.
I also agree on keeping the call going for cats. I have watch several cats stop whenever the sound stops.
I think the guys that sit real long cat stands are not seeing them till late, or a cat has wondered into the sound and showed up late.
Just my thought and worth what it cost you.
[ January 20, 2011, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posts: 997 | From: Comanche OK | Registered: Oct 2006
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CrossJ
SECOND PLACE: PAUL RYAN Look-a-like contest
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posted January 20, 2011 06:48 PM
Have to agree with KJ completely.
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted January 20, 2011 11:27 PM
Yeah, well I'm going to reread what he said again because I don't think I buy most of it? BRB
But, (WAG) if the gist of it is; you don't need to make 45 minute stands to kill bobcats, that's hardly new. I agree with what Kelly said about the last stand of of the day and if cutting it off too short just to make another short stand, I would just as soon extend a stand past my normal twelve minutes. But, that distinction is most noticed on dry stands. If you snag a slow poke cat and it takes him a while to get to where you can kill him, that's a different deal because it could easily be a 45 minute stand, start to finish. When timing stands, there are two different yardsticks, in other words. If I was making a stand and had a cat come in at the 25 minute mark, that would be an impossibility because I hardly ever stretch a stand to that length, except for the above stated exception, last stand. Anyway, I don't make "cat stands" but somehow, have managed to kill my share of cats.
It would help if Lance could be a little more concise. I don't want to get sidetracked by details. The thing is, cats are individuals and some occasionally run in like a coyote and others sneak from bush to bush. So, it is hard to classify that bush to bush attitude with pauses while hand calling, and seeing a cause and effect.
Other than that, I take exception to the idea that it's those feeble old guys spreading rumors on cat stands, AND making the generalization that they got their opinions while blowing hand calls. How old is this disrespectful little snot, (just kidding) and where does he get his half baked theories? Petroglyphs in caves, maybe?
The only thing I see merit in is that when setting up in fairly close proximity to cat cover, it is not al all unusual to detect a cat approaching within eight minutes or so. Like I said, hardly a revelation.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
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posted January 21, 2011 05:45 AM
Some of us bought into the idea that you need to spend at least 30 minutes on a cat stand. It was advice we were given or maybe just read some where and when put to use what do you know there's a cat sitting there...
Of course most of the time I think it just took me that long to see the cat.
I've called a few that came charging out at 300 yards and caused me to sit there till I was sure they died of old age or showed. My cousin drives me nuts when it's his turn to call cause he likes to sit a minimum of 30 minutes on every stand, if he"s targeting cats, you might as well get comfortable.
15-20 minutes is my routine anymore unless the birds start making a fuss, then I may sit and look harder.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
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posted January 21, 2011 07:44 AM
I'd agree with the shorter cat stands too. I give lynx 15 minutes tops and then I'm onto the next stand. I've watched two lynx on one stand before from a high hill overlooking a field. The two lynx would move when the caller was going and simply sit down when it stopped. I guess that's why I'd rather call cats at night too. They come in during the daylight, but seeing them is the tough part. Once they pinpoint that caller, they'll sometimes just sit down and stare at the thing, almost waiting for some movement. At night, there's no hiding those glowing orb eyes. Got a nice lynx last saturday at the 4 minute mark at 56 yards with the shotgun. No way I'm sitting over 15 minutes for a cat unless I see the thing coming in.
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted January 21, 2011 11:16 AM
This is interesting to me. I don't know how our population densities in Eastern Washington, stack up against the rest of the country. Bobcats are more prevailent on Krusty's side of the state, but most calling areas are so thick you need to sit a long time before you actually get a visual. I see validity on both sides of the debate so far. Set up to quality bobcat areas, or set up over fresh tracks in the snow like when calling cougars, then you can have shorter stands possibly. I just have never had a bobcat do anything but slowly approach a stand, with lots of pauses and looking around for the source. But then again, I have only called up two bobcats in my lifetime so that doesn't really count for nothing.
I'm just glad I got that big ol' Krakatoa like Leonard. Now I can just sit in one spot for an hour with that thing blasting at high volume, sip on a coke, and wait for all the animals to show up. You poor guys with your small speakers need to make 3 stands to my 1. Thats the way it works right, 30amp vs 10 amp = 3:1 ratio. Very scientifical figuring is going on here. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted January 21, 2011 11:41 AM
There you go, tl. A lifetime total is a lifetime total. I think that qualifies you into entry of the Opinion Club.
Now, if somebody can just tell me if the whippersnapper has killed at least two bobcats, we will consider his totally never before heard of theory. I'm still steaming over his put down of the old codgers, the pioneers that went before him, and without them, this young man wouldn't know where to start. Literally.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32361 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted January 21, 2011 05:39 PM
quote:
if somebody can just tell me if the whippersnapper has killed at least two bobcats, we will consider his totally never before heard of theory. I'm still steaming over his put down of the old codgers, the pioneers that went before him, and without them, this young man wouldn't know where to start. Literally.
Now, Elbee, don't go getting your knickers all in a twist. No disparagement was intended toward old codgers- your inference, not his. LOL
The point he made, in espousing his theory, was that the advice of staying on cat stands for 45-minutes and more is a hold over from the days before e-callers and the ability to play a sound continuously for that long without losing consciousness because you've been blowing on a hand call that long. His question to me, in our conversation, was more along the line of "do you think that e-callers change the equation enough, as far as stand length goes, that the right sound and the right setup with an e-caller means you can get a cat to come in without stopping and, thus, showing itself much sooner than you could twenty years ago when all most guys were using was tube calls and their lungs?
Like has been stated, I've called a bunch of cats and watched them start and stop to the caller as if the remote was hooked to them. With continuous sound, they made a direct approach without getting cat ADD like they do. At the same time, when it's been colder than hell or I set up really close to where they were to begin with, I've had cats come running in like their asses were on fire, like a young coyote.
As for his background, he's a helluva coyote caller and has won a lot of contests here in Kansas. Doesn't really subscribe to howling, and still does well despite that, but takes down ten or so 'cats a year when calling which is above average for a guy that works every day.
No intent on his part to disrespect the foundation layers in calling. Just asking about what I thought the influence of new tech was on calling cats and if that old set-in-stone rule still applied across the board.
To take his inquiry once step further, I'll add...
We've often had the debate about whether it's best to keep stands short and closer together on coyotes because anything beyond about fifteen minutes, most of the season, is eating up time that would be better spent moving to another stand further down the line and starting all over to supposedly fresh ears, or is it best to wait out a long stand in hopes of finally coaxing in a stubborn old coyote that won't commit early? With that in mind, en lieu of new technology and what e-callers allow us to do today, does the same thing apply to calling cats?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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Leonard
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posted January 21, 2011 08:23 PM
Okay, I won't. We Seniors get all the abuse we need.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
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posted January 22, 2011 12:19 PM
Not the world's greatest photos, but still going with the short stand cat theory and it's working.
3 Minute Lynx last weekend at 56 yards with the shotgun
4 minute Lynx last night with the machine gun
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted January 22, 2011 03:06 PM
Depends on the type country you call in.
Daytime calling only here.
A good hand rule, is the thicker the brush, the SHORTER the stand should be, and the closer to each other the stands can be made.
In more open, broken type terrain, the stands should be longer.
30 minutes at least for bobcats.
Looking at my overall records over the years, fully 1/3 of all open terrain cats showed up at the 27-30 minute or more mark. Another 1/3 came in at the 20-25 minute mark, and the rest from 5 to 15 minutes.
In thick brush, my records show that 3/4 of all cats showed at the 8-10 minute mark.
This is over the last 25 years and several hundred bobcats called.
So for all you guys that call semi open terrain and are only staying on stand 15 minutes or less, you are missing 2/3 of your cats!
Lions are a whole nuther deal.
Try sitting like a statue for an hour or more!
There are ways to do it!
But heck.......this is only from an old guy with several hundred cats to his credit! But what do I know!
[ January 22, 2011, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: Steve Craig ]
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
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posted January 22, 2011 03:36 PM
TW, Sweet pics of those lynx. Wow, they sure have got some paws.
Steve interesting stats compiled over the years. Thanks for sharing.
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Leonard
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Member # 2
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posted January 22, 2011 04:01 PM
Those lynx don't look particularly large? I saw a pelt that my friend had and it did not look like it weighed more than 20 pounds? Maybe 25? They sure are cool looking.
BUT, WHAT IS THE THEORY? THAT CATS COME IN WITHIN 8 MINUTES?
That's hardly newsworthy?
IS IT, A CAT NEEDS OVER 30 MINUTES, IF YOU USE A HAND CALL?
What exactly is this new theory we are supposed to be pondering?
LANCE?
edit: I do not believe that ecallers change the equation. It has been said in several different ways, that it all depends on the terrain you are set up in and how close you are to a responder. Sometimes, I "think" we over-think this stuff. But, again. There is really nothing new, under the sun. Cats are cats and respond the same as they always have.
edit: one thing to keep in mind is that we sometimes pick up a cat as he is leaving. He may have been 50 yards away, at one time, down in the draw, but you suddenly spot him 100 yards away, moving laterally. This is quite common, actually.
[ January 22, 2011, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
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posted January 22, 2011 05:19 PM
Steve,
Those are some very interesting stats indeed, thanks for sharing them. Most of the area's I call are thick stuff with maybe a 75 yard view at most, surrounded by thick brush and woods.
Leonard,
If there's a new theory I want to hear it. Up here, I'm going with the 15 minute calling stand rule and then high tailing it to my next spot. 8 minutes might be pushing it for me, I've had too many fox show up around the 11-12 minute mark. Maybe 12 minutes is the standard in the dessert areas where the predators can lay rubber to the ground and come in quicker. Deep powdery snow will slow them down a bit, so I'm always trying to setup on an established trail or route if I can to utilize their path of least resistance preference. Those aren't real large lynx by any means. The top one weighed 24 pounds. I've heard of 40 pounders, but that's not very common.
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted January 23, 2011 06:46 AM
You also have to remember that cats are sight hunters first.
They HUNT their way to the call. This takes TIME.
And yes when you stop calling, they stop coming.
I believe this is far more important for lions than bobs.
Coyote calling cats will only give you so-so results.
I am talking consistent results here. UNLESS, you are in the brush as i said above.
I am convinced that most fellows trying to call bobs, never see fully half of what they call in, in the daytime.
All cats tend to hang up. This happens far more than you know.
Continued calling will finally make him come in to your viewing area most of the time.
You can be right on top of him at the start of the stand, and it will still take 20 minutes before you see him.
It is also amazing how many bobs are sitting right there looking at you for 20-30 minutes, and then leave without you seeing them.
Happens all the time.
This is not theory.
It is cat calling 101 and fact based on alot of called cats.
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
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Q-Wagoner
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posted January 23, 2011 09:09 PM
I think the length of a stand depends on the ground and density of cats. We really got into the cats on one ranch so due to numbers and incredibly thick brush we were making our stands about 7 minutes long and about 3 tenths of a mile apart. We killed 20 in two nights but made around 75 stands also. That puts a whole new meaning to "runnin & gunnin." We also shot over a dozen fox and some coons as well. I have always wondered if the cat count would have been higher had we passed on the other critters. No regretts but it has me thinking.
In the more open country, like Steve pointed out it does take longer in most cases for them to work into shooting range. That being said I have seen cats lope in for more than 300 yards and I have watched them walk in from that distance as well.
In the end, like every other aspect of calling, it really just depends on the factors. There is no cooky cutter aproach that will cover all the situations. Consistent success boils down to how well the caller can tailor his techniques to the ground he has to hunt and the densities he has to work with.
Good hunting.
Q,
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Leonard
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posted January 23, 2011 10:39 PM
Q, it's my opinion that you can take any other animal that shows up and ultimately, it doesn't affect called cats.
I remember an event that tends to illustrate what I mean. In this particular case we had picked up a flash while driving, not even working the light. We pulled over and my son had the light and I was on the gun, another guy was behind the wheel.
This animal came towards us across a hillside, about 10:00 from where the vehicle was facing and stopped, offering a very good shot, which I took, and he rolled down the hill out of sight about 150 yards away.
So, I started towards the base of the hill and about two thirds of the way I was sloshing through ankle deep water and getting deeper as I went along. There was some conversation with the light man back at the truck trying to guide me to where I could get across and I spent quite a bit of time wandering around out there but it looked a lot deeper closer to the base of the hill and while I timidly tried the jump from rock to rock technique, I heard a shot behind me.
I'm sure I was out there over a half an hour, and the distress was still playing, back at the vehicle, which is normal. In this case Junior had a feeling and waved the light behind and uphill over at the 2:00 direction and there was a bobcat sitting on top and watching the whole situation.
This animal wasn't there before, but during my retrieval he was called in in perfect position to see the vehicle and the light shining on me and apparently didn't feel threatened, at all, even when they put the light in his direction. A nice bonus since I never did cross that creek and never found the animal, a gray fox.
I have done so many things, repairs stuff like that in the middle of the night and we always play some sort of distress and it is not uncommon, at all to have a curious cat come in, so we try to do two things at once, and one of them is always hunting.
Bobcats seem to come in regardless of the gunshots and regardless of shagging other down animals, they just keep responding and then hang around until they are spotted.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted January 24, 2011 01:50 PM
So what is he best course of action for a cat that hangs up, say, just out of shotgun range?
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Q-Wagoner
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posted January 24, 2011 03:14 PM
Shoot him with a rifle. LOL
At night we use shotguns with 180 lumin lights mounted on them. The caller keeps the cats atention "and a light in his eyes." The shooter swings out wide and walks to within shotgun range, lights up the cat if he needs to and shoots. We also comunucate with radios equiped with ear buds. This is a real asset at times as the caller can keep track of the shooter and the cat.
Good hunting.
Q,
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4949shooter
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posted January 24, 2011 04:01 PM
Gotcha. I hunt alone at night, and use a shotgun. A rifle isn't out of the question though, but I prefer the shotgun cuz I hunt the thick stuff.
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Leonard
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posted January 24, 2011 06:13 PM
What Quinton is trying to say is, go get him.
A bobcat does not ever consider the possibility that something is hunting him. Conversely, For some reason, humans hardly ever think they can approach an animal, and that he will stay put. They all run away. That applies to almost any animal, except bobcats. They are not afraid of you, believe it or not.
I have not tried what he suggested, approaching obliquely, but the other part is very important, you need to keep the light on the animal from the starting location. All we try to do, and I suspect the actual reason for his method, is to keep from being lit up while climbing the hill. Don't create shadows, as much as possible and the light needs to be held high, keeping the eyes in the halo right under the beam.
Another thing that is important is the cat should be, (hopefully) above you. A bobcat will hold it's position a lot better, in spite of talking and scuffling noises as you walk towards him, due to the fact that you have to keep an eye on him, and not so much on the footing, which means that you might slip and knock a couple rocks downhill, and chances are he will still be there. Don't get too excited about that comment, it's much better to be as quiet as possible, but it is also surprising how forgiving a cat can be, if you happen to snap a twig, etc.
Over a lifetime, this information will gain you a bunch of cats that you would normally walk away from. It's an amazing thing, but resist the attitude, thinking that cats are stupid. They are cats, and as such, they know that they are superior to humans. What they don't know is what guns can do.
A fight to the death with a bobcat is not something anyone should try, even though they are giving away 150 pounds, on average.
But, they are cats and that's cat nature. Take advantage if you can, 'cause it's worth it.
Good hunting. LB
edited to make a little better sense of clumsy grammar.
[ January 24, 2011, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
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posted January 25, 2011 01:45 PM
Thanks guys.
For someone that hunts alone, is there anything else that can be done?
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TundraWookie
Knows what it's all about
Member # 1044
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posted January 25, 2011 03:14 PM
4949,
A good LED headlamp and good LED rifle mounted light. No wires to mess with, waterproof, light weight, bright (enough), long runtimes, and they work great in the cold.
Headlamp: Predator Light with homemade shroud and petzl headlamp mounts.
Rifle: XLR250
No more big lighforce, stiff wired, dying 12 volt SLA batteries to mess with.
I'm curious what the solo guys are using too.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted January 25, 2011 07:02 PM
Tundra,
I am running a Petzl Taktikka plus, and a Surefire 6P mounted to my Mossberg 835.
I guess I was more or less wondering how to handle cats that hang up out of range, when there is no partner to work the light as Leonard and Q suggest. Maybe you guys are right, and I will have to switch to a rifle when out of NJ. In NJ we are limited to shotguns.
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