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Author
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Topic: What's typical when calling lions
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 13, 2003 07:02 PM
Some time back, I posted on one of these boards that a "student" of mine had managed to call a cougar to within thirty yards of his stand. Pretty good feat, considering that there have been no documented cats in Kansas for nearly a hundred years. We know that they're here, but the state authorities won't jump on board until someone can provide proof.
Well, just moments ago, I spoke with another guy in that same area who has also seen that cat in the past year. He recently invested in some high-end digital video equipment complete with zoom lenses and says he can get a clear shot of anything within a half-mile of his lens.
Sightings of the cat are relatively frequent with several being very recent. What we're doing right now is plotting the locations of where these sightings are taking place and correlating that with the type of cover we'd expect to find this big cat in. Both of my compadres hunt this area regularly and have permission to hunt nearly all the privately owned land thereabouts.
What we plan to do is identify several good locations that look promising, then identify what we feel will be good vantage points where cameras can be posted and well concealed. We hope to have every angle leading in to your's truly covered so that, if the cat responds to me, we can get some pictures.
Now, my question: What can I expect as far as behavior in a mountain lion's approach? Similar to a bobcat, faster, slower, what??? How do you best describe a typical cougar response to calling? Any assistance from you experienced cougar hunters will be very helpful as we develop our strategy.
If I survive the hunt, it ought to make for one heckuva story. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 13, 2003 08:03 PM
I've never called a lion on a daylight stand.
If it provides any help, at all I can offer my impressions of the approach, at night. They give you a real good, direct and fearless look. You usually see them way out there, because the eyes are brighter than most other animals.
They come in slow and deliberate, but not like a bobcat, which can involve a lot of pauses to study the situation. Even when they aren't looking at the light, they have a good reflective quality, and you can tell that the head is turned, when observing through the scope.
You can expect them to come quite close before losing interest, but they do not hang around when they have seen enough. Getting a decent shot at a lion is relatively easy, assuming they are visible, which can be a problem all by itself in heavy cover.
The odds are not in your favor. You could call for ten years and not see a lion, unless you were very lucky.
If there is anything I learned about my very infrequent encounters with lions, it is that you need to make stands in prime deer country, or the odds are so long as to be invisible. Out here, they are high, where the big bucks are.
In Kansas, I don't know what would constitute a mountain, but high vantage points are an attraction for them during the daytime....normally.
Summer months, I think they might be seen out on the flats, occasionally.
Of course, Steve Craig specializes in lions so I hope he sees this and has a few suggestions. Lonny also has some good knowledge of their habits.
Good luck, LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted July 14, 2003 06:53 AM
The typical approach ,USUALLY, is a very direct, slow, cautious,hunting, approach. This is how they come into a PREY distress sound. If you move an eyelash, they will spot you and be gone. They do not hang around like a bobcat either. When using lion vocalizations the approach is entirely different. Still direct, but much more casual or layed back if you will, depending on the type of vocalization. Any movement on your part WILL BE SPOTTED BY THE LION. He doesnt have the couriousity that a bobcat has. I really believe that this is one of the reasons hand callers do not call very many lions. Also, if you are going to call a lion,NEVER, let me say this again,NEVER call by yourself with a hand call. You will not hear a lion approach untill it is too late. Do lions get called in by hand callers, yes they do! But when you begin to see those approaches, and watch a few lions in the wild as they stalk and kill an animal, believe me, you will have a different respect for them .Immature lions are a completely different story, and approach the caller in any number of ways. I had one client shoot his lion with a 243 at 15 yards after 3 or 4 minutes of calling when that young male charged in to that stand. He would have made any coyote proud.Stuck his nose in that WT speaker and bang down he went. Dumb lion to say the least. Females are a different story too. As far as locations, get the coyote calling locations out of your head and think FELINE! Thick cover,lots of deer as Leonard said, high hills etc. I do know Kansas has hills as I have hunted it more than 25 years ago. Find a FRESH kill and your battle is half over. Thats about all I can offer yu at this time. You will have to wait for more in the book I am currently writing on this subject to come out sometime soon I hope.
FWIW
Steve
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 442 | From: Cottonwood,Az, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 14, 2003 11:25 AM
Thanks for the information, guys. Few remarks. First off, I just look stupid. I've spent my entire life calling coyotes and bobcats with the knowledge that I was the meanest and best armed sumbitch in the woods. I've handled captve cougars before and am very respectful to their power and stealth. There are three of us on this project at this time and I'm seeking a fourth so we can set up with teams of two and cover 360-degrees around each vantage point. Our goal is not so much to kill the cat as it is to just see it, video tape it, and hopefully, capture a footprint or any other form of tangible evidence that it is here. That's all the state wants, and in Kansas, under our current system of laws, shooting it under any circumstances other than self-defense would be very, very illegal. But, having said that, there is common sense to be drawn upon here and an unwillingness to go to a gun fight with a knife. We'll be attempting to cover all contingencies, as far as safety goes.
The area in which this cat has been seen is charactaristically undeveloped farmland. Relatively flat, but bordered by large tracts of rangeland used for cattle grazing. Relative to most of this region, this area is uninhabited, with (maybe) one house per square mile. He seems to be staying close in and along the Solomon River basin where the lowlands have a lot of dense riparian habitat, cottonwoods, willows, osageorange and locust trees. Extending out of his basin are fingerlike drainages thru rangeland habitat, tallgrass prairie with areas of dense stands of eastern redcedars. Some of these ravines are upwards of seventy feet deep and somewhat inaccessible, with exposed rock outcroppings and, occasionally, small caves, etc. These will likely be the areas we'll focus on.
Again, thanks for the assistance. In addition to our calling efforts, we'll be launching a second prong in other areas using trail cams if we can get them rounded up. I'll let you know if we find one.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 14, 2003 03:14 PM
Things have suddenly taken a turn for the better for us on this effort. Found number four for our crew today. He's a longtime trapping buddy of mine that does ADC work and he e-mailed me to report that within three miles of our initial sighting, a horse was mauled badly enough to be euthanized 2.5 weeks ago. The next night, the cat came back, attacked another horse, and was shot at by the owner. He drew blood but the blood trail was short. Nothing recovered.
I've got my buddy securing the blessing of our state wildlife authority for us to call this cat for purposes of killing it under his ADC permit, if they'll let us. Any comments from you guys on how big a circuit a cat this size would run? I know that it will differ from KS to AZ or NM, but just an educated guess would be a help for us.
Also, would it benefit us to focus around the area where he was shot at, set up a mile or two away on ravines and watercourse that create well concealed travelways, or work an entirely different area? How do these cats respond to bad encounters with ppl? Like coyotes and stay away, or do they just keep on keepin' on? I sound like a rookie asking these questions, but I've never had to deal with one of these cats and want to put my best foot forward the first time out.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 14, 2003 03:58 PM
It's anybody's guess if he will stay in the area or move on. I'd say he's a transient, so he's either got a purpose in establishing his own territory, or he's satisfied being a gypsy.
I know you're not stupid, Lance. And I know you intend to be careful. I know you want assistance, but that's going to work against you. I suggest no more than two guys, and use some sort of movement to get the focus away from the humans, if you intend to hand call. The odds that your lion won't spot at least one of four people is mightly slim. Get your back against something solid, make him come at you from the front. Locate sign.
This is going to be a difficult assignment, I hope you score.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lonny
PANTS ON THE GROUND
Member # 19
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posted July 14, 2003 04:36 PM
Cdog, Have there been any sightings since the lion was shot by the guy who owned the horses? I'm just wondering if its still alive?
How close in distance have the sightings been to one another? I'd guess that a lion in Kansas wouldn't need to cover as much ground as a lion in the Rocky Mountain states to find prey. It could still move several miles very easily in one night and could call this whole basin in question home. They can cover a bunch of ground in their travels. I'd check game trails in thick cover, crossing's in saddles, and where thick cover funnels them down. With your hunting experience, and knowledge of the area I'm sure you'll pick the best spots.
Do you get any snow in this part of KS? I'd just think that if you can't get any solid evidence now that with some tracking snow this winter it would make you efforts much easier. Have you thought of getting someone with some good coon or bobcat hounds and next time you have a sighting get the dogs out there as quickly as possible and see if they can do anything with it? Good luck, It sounds like it will be a challenging and fun project.
Posts: 1209 | From: Lewiston, Idaho USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Steve Craig
Lacks Opposable Thumbs/what's up with that?
Member # 12
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posted July 14, 2003 05:54 PM
Lance,
Here in Az. lion territories for males will run about 60 square miles on average. Females 12 to 20. I know for a fact that since 1994, the size has DROPPED! There are areas in this state where male territories are half that! I would be willing to guess that Calf is the same way as well. I know in Idaho and Montana some males territries are 150 square miles. Do what Lonny suggested and hunt those saddles, and other land features. It is too bad that guy shot that sucker, as if he didnt kill it, it may leave for a while. Rest assured, it will be back, but it is hard to judge just when without knowing the area and type of country,habitat, food source,etc. Good Luck!
FWIW
Steve
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Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction. - Thomas Jefferson
Posts: 442 | From: Cottonwood,Az, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 14, 2003 07:23 PM
Thanks, again guys. I'm just now in the process of talking with guys in the area and plotting out locations and dates of sightings. As of now, it's an area approximately six miles by four miles. And to the best of my knowledge, there have been no sightings of the cat since the horse incident.
Saddles are all but unheard of around here, at least in the sense that you're used to. I've got aerial photos of the entire county and will lay out that area so I can "look" at it from on high. Whereas a lot of your animals follow topographiocal features, i.e., saddles, our countryside is relatively flat and is small tracts of different types of habitat, i.e., milo field, wheat stubble, pasture, woodlot, river bottom, etc. Our critters establish travel routes following continuous cover. For example, they might come off a heavily wooded creek bottom and follow a hedgerow for a half-mile into a cedar choked half section of pasture ground, and never go up or down more than twenty feet in elevation. You get the idea.
The small size of their ranges really surprises me. I've had reports of big cats within days of one another, ten miles or more apart, and figured it was likely that it was the same cat. I guess I just figured that in a place like the Rockies, the habitat is continuous, whereas in a place like Kansas, a lot of the total area is poor habitat due to an absence of cover, i.e., winter wheat. A township of 36 square miles, in some areas, may only have a toal of two or three square miles max of usable habitat if you were to collect it all in one spot. None of these reports, with exception of one, have ever really said "cougar" to me. And that one was what appeared to be a scent post setup in wheat stubble where something had dragged a fresh deer carcass (roadkill) being used as a draw bait for coyotes thirty yards into the open, and a circle of scratched stubble and debris nearly eleven feet in diameter piled on top of the carcass in the middle of the circle. We deduced big cat simply because there is nothing else around here that demonstrates this type of behavior, at least not to this magnitude, and that there had been several reported sightings of a big cat in the area.
We do get snow, but this is Kansas. With the first flakes comes a pissed off Nebraska north wind (comes from us beating their Huskers on the football field. Right, Q?) blowing at thirty miles an hour to Oklahoma. A ten inch snowfall can leave the fields bare of snow and all the roads under twelve foot drifts. But, we occasionally get a good tracking snow and if the problem persist, we'll certainly be canvassing the area to see what we can find.
Also, several years ago, Kirk Woods of Winfield Kansas, a longtime NM lion hunter, offered to haul his lion dogs anywhere in Kansas to follow up on a firm sighting. He did get called out one time after a scout group reported seeing a cat. Two hours later, they'd treed a nice cougar with a short log chain around its neck. I'll probably be making contact with him soon to see if he's still available. Haven't talked to him in a long time anyway.
I don't have high hopes for this thing showing up. I've talked to untold numbers of fellas that saw a big cat while deer/ pheasant/ elephant / wombat hunting and half of them "got a piece of him". Yet, there are never any tracks, hair, droppings, blood. The state has offered ot DNA test anything we can produce, but nothing is ever found. Kansas cougars must walk three inches off the ground and can move thru solid objects without leaving a trace of evidence. Having said that, it'll be fun trying and hey, anything can happen. Right?
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Tim Behle
Administrator MacNeal Sector
Member # 209
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posted July 14, 2003 09:05 PM
Cdog911,
Not to throw a wrench in you plans, but here is another side to your "success" you might not have thought of.
What happens if you prove to the State that there is A Mountain Lion in Kansas? You'd better find a lot more real quick. Only one animal of a species in a State is a quick qualifier for that States Endangered Species list. How can you deny it? There is only the one.
How long would it take the Bunny huggers to jump on that bandwagon and take it to court? They could close down hunting, trapping, farming and many other activities in that area for years. Just to be sure that No one disturbed this single endangered animal.
Don't think it can happen there? Just look at what they did to the loggers in the Northwest for the Spotted Owl. The Electric Company I work for just spent $25K to move a powerline and a transformer feeding a stock tank in my area last month. All due to a Raven ( One of the most common birds in the area ) building a nest on top of the transformer.
If you do get pictures, I hope like hell it's wearing a collar.
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Personally, I carry a gun because I'm too young to die and too old to take
an ass kickin'.
Posts: 3160 | From: Five Miles East of Vic, AZ | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 15, 2003 03:59 AM
Don't get me started on those bunny huggers, Tim. You are right, they can cause all sorts of bonehead problems that has nothing to do with wildlife or ecology, including turning the whole area into a "sanctuary" for an imaginary lion. Or maybe the other darling of the PETA crowd, a wolf? Now that would make a little more sense, historically.
Looking at it logically, (something amimal rights activists are incapable of) Kansas never has been, or ever will be suitable lion habitat, so why make the effort?
Okay, enough editorializing.
I'm no expert, that's for sure. But.
That road killed deer doesn't sound like something a lion would be interested in, and dragging the carcass into the open , and then covering it with debris isn't lion behavior that I am familiar with?
By all indications, sounds like you're dealing with a black lion, for sure.....
(just for AZ's benefit)
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 15, 2003 11:08 AM
LB: "Kansas never has been, or ever will be suitable lion habitat, so why make the effort?"
Cougars are indigenous to Kansas with the last one being killed in the early 1900's. Land use has changed the view dramatically since that time and what we have now is probably non-conducive to lion habitation, but they were here originally, as were massive herds of elk and bison.
Tim, it's been my position that KDW&P refuses to acknowledge the presence of the big cats for political reasons, but not for the one you mention. Certainly the whackos would like their shot at it, but the bigger problem would be the agricultural lobby. With 98% of KS privately owned, and the fifth largest producer of beef in the country, the farmers and cattle producers are already up in arms about the deer "problem". It would almost be worth shooting one and hanging it in the town square just to see PeTA and the Farm Bureau folks fight to the death.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
Posts: 5440 | From: The gun-lovin', gun-friendly wild, wild west | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted July 15, 2003 02:34 PM
Okay, I errored. So Kansas has historically been host to an overflow population of lions. But, I believe I know what lion habitat looks like and it doesn't look much like Kansas, it looks like the Sierra's, the Cascades, the Rockies, etc.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted July 15, 2003 07:30 PM
Not to be argumentative or split hairs, but they were considered a resident population rather than an overflow population from CO or anywhere else.
The following information is taken from a website sponsored by K-State, the University of Kansas & Fort Hays State Universities where it says:
"Range and Habitat: Originally, mountain lions ranged throughout Kansas. They seem to have reached their greatest abundance in southern Kansas along timbered streams, and the adjacent hills and grasslands. They were reported to be uncommon on shortgrass prairie where shelter was absent. In other areas, mountain lions use both rocky, forested areas and the tall grass prairie and savannah. There were two subspecies of the mountain lion in Kansas: Felis concolor hippolestes Merriam in the western quarter of the state, and Felis concolor schorgeri Jackson throughout the rest of the state."
And later, : "The last confirmed mountain lion in Kansas was taken in 1904 in Ellis County. Early records show it was common in Harper, Barber, Comanche, Saline, Butler and Sumner counties."
I live in Dickinsion County which lies immediately east of Saline County. These attacks and sightings are in northern Saline County and Ottawa County, immediately to the north.
Now, I feel that what we're seeing now, if it is in fact a lion, is from overflow. Lions were extirpated from Kansas due in large part to the loss of large prey like elk and bison. At that time in history, deer were all but unheard of here. Of course, with the loss of wild prey, the lions becasme a problem for the growing cattle industry and they becamse actively pursued until they were gone. Today, due to Conservation Reserve and millions of acres of tallgrass prairie being re-established, our deer herd has grown in leaps and bounds and I think the cats are re-establishing their numbers by following this food source and as a result of increasing numbers in neighboring states where hunting has been reduced. Just my opinon and I may be way off base, but I'll be happy to dig up the pics I took of the scratch marks at that scent post site and post them. Someone ( I forgot who) down your way looked at them and said that if he found them in his back yard, they'd be lion, but in KS where there are "no lions ', he didn't know what they might be. Either way, I'm still gonna try to call it. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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MULE
Knows what it's all about
Member # 63
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posted September 26, 2003 08:38 AM
Steve,
I can definitely understand why you say a guy should not call lions by himself with handcalls but here is my dilemna.
We can't use electronics for lions in colorado and I'm usually all by my lonesome.
Any advice?
I try a few times a year to get up in the hills and call a lion(so far no success)
I have to admit I have my back firmly against a tree and I'm probably moving to much as I'm a little concerned about my back door
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Kickin' it on the Steppes. Livin' in my Yurt
My Hockey Mom can beat up your Community Organizer
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MULE
Knows what it's all about
Member # 63
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posted September 27, 2003 01:28 PM
BTT
And given the fact that I'm alone and using a hand call would a fawn decoy be a good idea?
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Kickin' it on the Steppes. Livin' in my Yurt
My Hockey Mom can beat up your Community Organizer
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 27, 2003 02:38 PM
quote:
BTT
And given the fact that I'm alone and using a hand call would a fawn decoy be a good idea?
Excuse me for butting in, but I think you are going to do it the hard way, in the first place. This is fine, but you need to understand that the focus will be exactly on you, as the source of the distress sound, whatever it it. Therefore, you need complete concealment, and zero movement.
In this case, a decoy will be completely ignored, unless it moves, of course.
The best solution is an electronic machine with a remote, and probably lion sounds, with distressed deer or fawn being another possibility.
(edit) however, I understand the legal issue, and consider it to be completely bogus.
Bear in mind that every lion I've called, (damn few, he says, sheepishly ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) )
was with electronics, at night, so this advice can easily be taken with a grain of salt, as applied to daylight stands....which are a lot more difficult, for several reasons.
Good hunting. LB
[ September 27, 2003, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted September 27, 2003 02:45 PM
Hey, wait a minute! Aren't we good enough for the bouncing boobs? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32363 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Lone Howl
Free Trial Platinum Member & part-time language police
Member # 29
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posted September 27, 2003 03:54 PM
Yeah MULE, we want boobs! Bust out with it(no pun intended)
If it good enough for Moosies board its good enough for this one!
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When tyranny becomes law, rebellion becomes duty.
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Bob Mc
Knows what it's all about
Member # 237
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posted September 27, 2003 10:20 PM
Hey guys, I just found this thread, but I’ve got a good excuse. I lost the link to this site awhile back and just got it again a few days ago.
Anyway, I just read the whole thread, and I have to take exception to a few of the things that have been said here. Keep in mind that I can in no way compete with the number of lions that Steve has called in. Still, over the years I have managed to look at a few.
Is there any such thing as “typical” lion behavior? I’ve had one charge the call. I’ve had them slip in so stealthily that I never saw them come. They were just there when I next looked at a place where nothing had been before. I’ve had them lurk out in the brush, and would never have known they were there at all if the dog with me hadn’t told me so.
All of the cats I have called in have come in the daytime. I seldom hunt at night. So seldom that you could say I just don’t, so I’ve had a chance to observe some of the cats I’ve called in. Now here is something that a lot of people don’t know about me. I am afflicted with a sort of nervous system disorder. Simply put, I shake a lot. It is physically impossible for me to sit motionless! So if lions as a group are so sensitive to movement, why is it that I can call them in?
I am convinced that lions are one of the most curious animals on this earth. We’ve all heard the old saying “Curiosity killed the cat”. Contrary to the way some animals react, I think that a lion will come to a call out of shear curiosity, even if it isn’t hungry. I’ve had them come in and sit down on their butt like a dog, and watch me, while I watched them back. They never made a move to leave until I spoke. A simple “Boo” or “Hey cat” was enough to make them high tail it out of there.
I’ve called cats with mouth calls, and I’ve called them with electronics. What is meant by calling by yourself? The first few lions I called in, I was completely by myself; and they came to a mouth blown call. I still hunt mostly by myself, but these days when I call there are from 1 to 3 Airedales laying next to me; so I’m not completely alone. And I still use both kinds of calls.
I see that the majority of the posts on this thread were made back around the middle of July, so I have to guess that the particular cat in question was never called in or dogged. Are there still sightings in the area?
Posts: 15 | From: Northern California | Registered: Sep 2003
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MULE
Knows what it's all about
Member # 63
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posted September 28, 2003 09:55 AM
For some reason this won't work in my sig line
[ September 28, 2003, 09:56 AM: Message edited by: MULE ]
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Kickin' it on the Steppes. Livin' in my Yurt
My Hockey Mom can beat up your Community Organizer
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Bob Mc
Knows what it's all about
Member # 237
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posted September 28, 2003 11:58 AM
Ouch! That's gotta hurt. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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