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Author
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Topic: What do you think of the killflash device...
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 04, 2011 02:09 PM
...on the Nikon Coyote scope. It it worth it? Or is it just a gimmick?
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Kokopelli
SENIOR DISCOUNT & Dispenser of Sage Advice
Member # 633
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posted March 04, 2011 03:28 PM
Ok............How many coyotes did you spook last year with 'scope flash'?? If you set out to spook a coyote on purpose with nothing but scope flash, how hard would it be to do??
I tend to think that it's a gimmic, BUT, if it doesn't cause any problems with dust or raindrops or such stuff, it shouldn't hurt anything.
Every season, I start out with a handful of new gadgets, gizmos & geegaws...........and every season I re-learn that if simple is good, very simple is very good.
YMMV
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And lo, the Light of the Trump shown upon the Darkness and the Darkness could not comprehend it.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 04, 2011 03:39 PM
Yeah that makes sense Koko. It sure seems like a gimmick.
The instructions say to remove it for low light hunting, so I guess it darkens things up a bit.
[ March 04, 2011, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: 4949shooter ]
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 04, 2011 04:05 PM
Don't overthink this stuff. Those anti-flash devices are for war games and such, just like ghilli suits and face paint, etc. As the flyfisherman would say, "match the hatch". Conduct your stand with a focus on animals, such as a bobcat, fox or a coyote.
A coyote sees flashes every day. Well , maybe not every day, but theoretically he could see the flash of car windows, moving or parked and they do not spook into the next county because of it.
Now, a sentry may make a real big deal out of a momentary flash indicating enemy troop movements in his sector, but a coyote ignores it. That doesn't quite address the situation in which the flash is coming from the same location as the distress sound of a bunny rabbit, but then again, it is entirely possible that the bunny's dog tag might reflect some sunlight.
Now, we need to consider the exact location of the sun in the sky and triangulate the coyote with your scope's objective lens. Make a game of it some time and try to flash your neighbor's wife while she is shoveling the driveway. Might be easier said, than done, Amigo.
Yes, it will cause a reduction in apparent brightness so that should really come in handy. Right?
Conclusion: this gadget is perfect for posers. I bet they sell a ton.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 04, 2011 05:47 PM
Interesting points Leonard. I kinda figured it was a selling point more than anything else.
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted March 04, 2011 05:58 PM
If the sun is sending a flash off your lense, then you made a poor stand choice anyway.
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted March 04, 2011 06:48 PM
Like so many of the "gimmicks" introduced into hunting, it's yet another; perfect solution, to a nonexistent problem.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 04, 2011 07:07 PM
Understood.
And getting back to Leonard's analogy to the military, when I brought the scope and gun to the range at work 6 months ago the military guys liked the killflash.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted March 04, 2011 08:14 PM
I had a Nikon scope that came with the ARD. The scope did'nt cost anymore with it or without. It does reduce the amount of light about the same as a scope with a 4" sun-shade. Would I go out and buy one cause I think I need it? No!
If I bought a scope that came with one then I would leave it on the scope, can't hurt....
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 05, 2011 05:08 AM
I picked one up as we were looking at a possible article on sun shades. It was like looking through a window screen and it not only reduced the amount of light to the scope itself, it gave the image seen a definite haziness like the objective was smeared or something. A regular sunshade does the same thing as would a number of other things.
LOL, Tim. You just don't know how NOT to slam your little dink in a drawer, do you? Whereas any commentary I offer about you is aimed at your so-called hunting prowess - on a hunting forum - you are the first to go truly personal by dragging my son into this. Again. If you don't see the problem with that, and I pretty much guess you don't, then it pretty much clarifies and defines the problem for the rest of us. Character, son. Or the lack of. You don't have any idea of where the line might be. Just keep on keeping on. You say more about YOU than any of us could ever put into words everytime you get on a forum. LOL Looking at your recent posts, I'm beginning to think that we're getting to you a bit. Feeling insecure yet? Starting to see your place in the big scheme? Useful idiot.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
Member # 690
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posted March 05, 2011 06:52 AM
IMO, the whole scope is a gadget, from the circles to the killflash.
Scopes with cross hairs have worked for how many decades, without some screen blocking out sun. Hell, the "brightness" of a scope has been a selling point for how long? Then someone thinks it would be better to keep some of the light out, and then put circles for reticles because "our eye will center the target automatically". Really?
Ever notice when you see a commercial on TV showing circle reticles that they are shooting round targets that fit right inside the circles? Great if I hunted circles, but I don't.
give me a good bright scope with a crisp sight picture with good 'ol cross hair and leave it at that.
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
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sak81
Knows what it's all about
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posted March 05, 2011 07:11 AM
Yep, ya can sell a coyote hunter anything.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted March 05, 2011 08:28 AM
quote:
Scopes with cross hairs have worked for how many decades, without some screen blocking out sun. Hell, the "brightness" of a scope has been a selling point for how long? Then someone thinks it would be better to keep some of the light out, and then put circles for reticles because "our eye will center the target automatically". Really?
If you would have been around any weapons used by the military you would of noticed most of them use a Peep site which have been in use for decades.. The circle plex works very simular to the peep site..
As for the ARD it dose'nt block out that much lite and you hardly know its there when looking through it when outside.. Like I mentioned before its about equal to useing a sun-shade.. BR shooters use sun-shades and I also use them when hunting on sunny days over snow and when you don't need it all you have to do is unscrew it and put it in youre pocket, no big deal..
The ballistic plex is'nt any better than a standard cross-hair but it works just as well...
When useing the ballistic plex you can use it two ways. You can look through the circle and bracket it around the animal which makes for a steadier shot or you can use it just like a scope that uses a dot in the center of the cross-hair and just put the dot on center to where you want the bullet to strike.. Its not that difficult to use.. The outter edge of the circles can also be used for windage adjustments or for leading a running target...
Its just another tool, some will like it some will not...
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 05, 2011 09:56 AM
A few of the comments and observations concerning brightness are valid on bluebird days. For night hunting, anti reflective devices and sun shades are really counter productive, it is a bit surprising how much they affect a scope's brightness, under low light conditions.
The one scope that I have with the killflash, I don't think it's removable, and guess what? It also has a lighted reticle.
Good hunting. LB
edit: I wondered what Tim said that offended Lance. The last thing I noticed was his sig line/duh! However, I don't get it?
Tim, that's particularly rude. What possesses you sometimes, I don't know. I think you should edit. Don't make me do it.
[ March 05, 2011, 10:00 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 05, 2011 10:00 AM
"As for the ARD it dose'nt block out that much lite and you hardly know its there when looking through it when outside.. "
Wrong again. t-t-t-t-timmy. The ARD does, in fact, look totally different when using it compared to a sunshade. There is a milky, almost hazy appearance, like looking through a screen. The sun shade, in comparison, puts nothing between the user and the target - just glass. The sun shade accomplishes the same function as the ARD without the haziness. The ARD I have is mil-spec and you can't use it in low light, whereas the sun shade on my scope works day or night. Thus, in hunting applications, the ARD really isn't necessary whereas the sun shade is useful. I've been told that you can accomplish the same purpose as either method by simply taking a Butler scope cap and drilling a quarter-inch hole dead center on the solid objective lens cover cap. It keeps the sun from shining on the objective lens but, from where you are sitting, you notice no difference in the view. Haven't tried it myself, but was given this idea by someone whose more well known for good information that t-t-t-timmy.
Question: How many scout sniper teams in today's military are using peep sights? Yes, we used peep sights back in "the day", but then we invented optics and found them much easier to use when pinpointing exactly where we want to shoot. Just because an idea worked once upon a time, doesn't (note the proper spelling) mean we have to use it moving forward. If that were the case, we'd be arguing over the best sized stone to put in our catapults for " 'pultin' yotes".
[ March 05, 2011, 10:05 AM: Message edited by: Cdog911 ]
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 05, 2011 10:41 AM
Well guys in my opinion the reticle isn't all that bad. Some of the guys at work were able to shoot tighter groups with it than me, but it isn't a target reticle. I shot this target off hand at 50 yards.
I forget how many rounds I fired, but they were all in the upper portion of the FBI "Q" target. The reticle seemed to make recovery after a shot quick and easy.
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TRnCO
FUTURE HALL OF FAMER
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posted March 05, 2011 10:49 AM
quote:
You can look through the circle and bracket it around the animal which makes for a steadier shot
Really? I always thought the guy holding the rifle is either steady or not, the scope doesn't make the rifle shooter more steady. That's what shooting sticks, bi-pods, and bench rests are for.
On edit, I've never bought one nor looked through one because it looked gimicky from the start, but I don't have a problem with cross-hairs, so I figure, why bother.
[ March 05, 2011, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: TRnCO ]
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Is it hunting season yet? I hate summer!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 05, 2011 12:21 PM
It just dawned on me, I think? We are talking about a Nikon scope model the name of which is "coyote"? If that is the case, an anti glare device is patently stupid. I will go a step further and say that this killflash thing has no place whatsoever, in a sporting application.
It's a ridiculous feature, unless you plan on going to Afghanistan in the near future.
However, I think your group is very good, offhand, etc. You might consider a Jewel trigger if you need to be more precise. Dan, (the man) wherever he is lately? would have good advice, I'm sure.
Good hunting. LB
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted March 05, 2011 02:01 PM
quote:
Question: How many scout sniper teams in today's military are using peep sights? Yes, we used peep sights back in "the day", but then we invented optics and found them much easier to use when pinpointing exactly where we want to shoot. Just because an idea worked once upon a time, doesn't (note the proper spelling) mean we have to use it moving forward. If that were the case, we'd be arguing over the best sized stone to put in our catapults for " 'pultin' yotes".
AR's with Peep sites is still standard issue.. Ask youre buddy thats in the Airforce what he use for sites when he qualified on the AR.
quote:
There is a milky, almost hazy appearance, like looking through a screen
Either you need new glasses or you don't have the focus ring adjusted properly.. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
quote:
I've been told that you can accomplish the same purpose as either method by simply taking a Butler scope cap and drilling a quarter-inch hole dead center on the solid objective lens cover cap. It keeps the sun from shining on the objective lens but, from where you are sitting, you notice no difference in the view.
By doing so also affects the amount of light getting in to the scope and also reduces youre field of view..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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Cdog911
"There are some ideas so absurd only an intellectual could believe them."--George Orwell.
Member # 7
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posted March 05, 2011 03:07 PM
For chrissakes, you illiterate dink, the word is "YOUR". Youre is an incorrectly punctuated variant of the contraction "You're" which is short for "you are" as in, "You're an illiterate dink!"
"AR's with Peep sites is still standard issue.. Ask youre buddy thats in the Airforce what he use for sites when he qualified on the AR."
Yes, they are, if you buy them with that set up. Not all come with peep sights. Many come as flat tops with rails ready to mount modern optics like those used in the type of application I presumed we were talking about here - civilians hunting, not qualifying on the small arms range at Lackland.
And yes, my buddy did qualify with an AR15 - actually an M4 - using peep sights. And yes, he is in the Air Force (two words, vet) which means he stands very little chance of using an M4 or an AR15 in his job. The gentleman I referred to above is a retired scout sniper from the Army (one word, so you can tell the difference), and he just retired so he isn't some washed up old fossil troll has been like you. The platforms he used in his work in Iraq were state of the art and well beyond anything you've ever shot. I trust that when Kyle tells me he made an X-hundred yard shot, he was telling the truth as opposed to your stories. LOL
"
Either you need new glasses or you don't have the focus ring adjusted properly.. "
Apparently, you've only used the ARD that came with that Nikon scope because the one I have is the same one used by US Forces and LEO's today and I've had several ppl look through the scope I had it affixed to and their comments were the same as mine - not worth the distortion they caused to the imagery seen. Had nothing to do with the focus ring. I've looked through a Nikon Coyote with the ARD affixed and theirs is the only one with that large of grid to it. Only one other on the market that I'm aware of - the one I have - and it's notably smaller in cell size. The one Coyote I looked through had similar issues, but not as pronounced. As for the round circles, I just don't see how you can improve on crosshairs when seeking to hit a specific spot at long range. I'm shooting for a specific spot on a coyote, not shooting at the entire coyote. Lot of wisdom to "aim small, shoot small".
" also affects the amount of light getting in to the scope and also reduces youre field of view..
For once, you are correct. As I clearly stated, this isn't something I tried myself, but was given this as an option for someone looking to deal with glare from their objective lens. Under normal daylight conditions, I presume it would work sufficiently to be able to see the target. But, then again, why not just attach a sun shade or set up without the sun in your face and be done with it?
I really need to stop cutting and pasting your comments, t-t-t-timmy. Every time I run my spellcheck, my computer locks up trying to figure out what you're (<--- see how that looks?) saying.
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I am only one. But still, I am one. I cannot do everything, but still, I can do something; and, because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted March 05, 2011 05:52 PM
quote:
Apparently, you've only used the ARD that came with that Nikon scope because the one I have is the same one used by US Forces and LEO's today and I've had several ppl look through the scope I had it affixed to and their comments were the same as mine - not worth the distortion they caused to the imagery seen.
If I'm not mistaken we where talking about the ARD on a Nikon.
49 Question below wrapped in quote tags.
quote:
...on the Nikon Coyote scope. It it worth it?
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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JD
HONORARY OKIE .... and Tim's at fault!
Member # 768
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posted March 05, 2011 07:37 PM
Good luck Lance. He`s clearly far more intelligent than any of us. Peep sights!!....what a hoot!! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Jason
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What do Obama & TA17Rem have in common........both are clueless asshats!!!
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted March 05, 2011 08:35 PM
Dan's still the spellin polece around these parts, and before he get's all upset, you better fix stuff so people know what you are trying to say.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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fgf4
unknown comic
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posted March 06, 2011 02:02 AM
WOW! I guess I've missed this one!
I'm not sure where to start... I sure like Lance's analogy of Tim's spelling and word usage!
quote:
For chrissakes, you illiterate dink, the word is "YOUR". Youre is an incorrectly punctuated variant of the contraction "You're" which is short for "you are" as in, "You're an illiterate dink!"
That one's a classic, Lance!
The new Nikon circle reticle might have merit for spray and pray shooting and as a sales gimmick, but it is in no way a precision reticle. If you want to quickly hit an animal and not necessarily kill it, by all means buy one!
The ARD device will reduce reflections but only at the cost of reduced light transmission to the user. The ARD works similar to looking through a screen wire or maybe a chainlink fence with a telescopic lens... the focal plane is sufficiently beyond the plane of the mesh to only cause loss of light and not be in focus to the viewer. As many have said it just isn't needed for normal hunting conditions.
Here is a good example...
I took this photo of a a close relative of TA from about 30yds using a 200mm F2.8 lens set at F2.8(wide open aperture)through a chainlink fence by holding the lens against the wire mesh. You can barely see the resulting checkerboard effect in the upper left hand corner of the picture. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
A sunshade will not in any way reduce the light gathered on a telescopic sight unless the optics are extreme wide angle... the opposite is actually true, a proper length sunshade allows the scope to gather more direct light from the targeted area by reducing light refraction on the primary lens.
The same applies for night hunting, a proper length shade will reduce any refracted light from the spotlight(whereas a properly shaded spotlight won't be a problem anyway).
Nick said,
quote:
Well guys in my opinion the reticle isn't all that bad. Some of the guys at work were able to shoot tighter groups with it than me, but it isn't a target reticule. I shot this target off hand at 50 yards.
Nick, I'd wager you could have shot that same group offhand at 100yds with a good low power scope and a crosshair reticle! ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Nikonut
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4949shooter
SECOND PLACE HIGGINS (MAGNUM P.I.) LOOK A LIKE CONTEST
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posted March 06, 2011 03:39 AM
quote:
However, I think your group is very good, offhand, etc. You might consider a Jewel trigger if you need to be more precise. Dan, (the man) wherever he is lately? would have good advice, I'm sure.
Thanks for the plug Leonard. A Jewell trigger might be in my future. I hear their triggers are among the best.
quote:
Nick, I'd wager you could have shot that same group offhand at 100yds with a good low power scope and a crosshair reticle!
You might be right Tom (well maybe I wouldn't be quite that good!). As I stated above, some of the guys at work shot the reticle better than I did, which was off a rest at the time. I shoot more than most of these guys, and I can only surmise that my eyes are used to a standard cross hair as opposed to the circle. Though one of the guys, my buddy Tom, who is an Iraq veteran and and avid shooter, didn't seem to be affected by the circles. But yes, I did have some trouble with it. I guess you can't teach an old dog new tricks...
I had originally toyed around with the idea of an Eotech or Aimpoint on this gun. But I decided to give the new Nikon a try, mostly for cost reasons. I am not sure if it was the best thing to go with. I would really like to try this scope on game to see what all the hullabaloo is about. Unfortunately, my plans for heading out west may have fallen through for the time being, and I can't use a rifle in NJ or a semi-auto in PA. So...I considered putting this scope on my model 700, but for now I think it will stay on the AR. I hunt mostly with a shotgun anyway...
During the development stage of this scope I had heard about the reticle design, and I took it upon myself to email Tom LaCorte from Nikon. I suggested putting an aiming dot in the center of the larger circle. Tom emailed me back and said they thought about this, but it would have required etched glass, and would have driven up the price of the scope more than they wanted. So...this is the end result. I don't think it is a bad scope for the money, but that is having been said without any experience killing anything with it.
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