This is topic Shotguns, Reddot sights vs Holo sights??? in forum Optics forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by MJM (Member # 270) on December 29, 2008, 11:08 AM:
This isn't necessarily a shotgun question, it's all about Red dot Sights vs Holo sights.
So here's the skinny. As mentioned on P-Masters I am building a shotgun specifically for predator hunting. With consideration of the odd angles and aquard positions we sometime find ourselves forsce to shoot predators in a red dot scope was added to the gun. The scope or optic seemed to work well on the occasional target or can or even a few non PC targets, but I knew the REAL test would be on predators. So, picture this if you will. I'm on my much abused ladder, the sun is falling like a hammer directly behind me and after a long dry spell I finally call a coyote. With the coyote in, as it turned out not quite killing position, the shot gun snapps to the shoulder. All seems perfect, the safety comes off, my tow open eyes search for the coytoe in the Optics ?????????? ALL I CAN SEE IS A SEA OF RED!!!!!!!! The falling sun had over powered something inthe scope and most of the field is a sea of red.
I am not pleased with my first Red dot sight experience. So here's my questions.
Is this common?
Is this common on the more expensive Red Dot sights?
If it is a common thing on a Red Dot sight, is it also common on a HOLO Sight, specifically a Bushnell HOLOsight?
Right now I am real clost to pulling the optical sight off and going with the deer sights on the barrel.
[ December 29, 2008, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: MJM ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 29, 2008, 12:47 PM:
Yeah, for that specific application, open sights is the answer.
But, there is more to it than that. You would have had a reflection problem with a scope or holograph same as the red dot.
Now that you know that you have a problem with a setting sun while sitting on a ladder with your back to the sun.....don't do that shit!
If you notice the troops, they usually have a rail system on top, on the side and underneath the barrel, with different sighting systems.
I am a little bit interested in dedicating a semi-auto shotgun, (maybe a Benelli?) to that concept and I think the first thing I want is an EOTech sight, and work up from there.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on December 29, 2008, 12:48 PM:
It's pretty hard to get the sun directly behind your head so the sun is reflected to your eye. I use a EOTech 512A65 and can tell you it won't happen with it.
Posted by MJM (Member # 270) on December 29, 2008, 01:07 PM:
I'm looking fairly hard at the Bushnell Holosight which is or has many components made by EOTech, but is a couple hundred dollars less. The EOTech is battle ready, but the chance of me going into battle is slim. The Bushnell is still enough money to not want to through it away on a failed product.
It was an odd thing. The reflection wasn't like a sunset reflection, it was like the sun was shinning through the scope and reflecting the red of the lazer ALL over the inside of the scope. More than likely it was a function of the dust on the lenses, but how are you going to hunt without dust in this neck of the woods. I was able to shade the lens with my head enough to get the shot off, but it was seriously distracting and made seeinth the coyote difficult at best.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 29, 2008, 03:55 PM:
For what it's worth;
I put slug sights on my pump, then eventually replaced the front bead with an oversized one.
Cheap, simple, not much to go wrong, and it works well.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 29, 2008, 05:33 PM:
I don't know what sight you were using or even what went wrong. I do know after owning 3 or 4 eo-techs and 3 Aimpoints, I have never had any problem like that. Setting up with the sun at your back is what we're supposed to do isn't it?
I have seen the dot on a bad eo-tech bloom into a blur when on high power.
Without bashing the eo-tech or bushnell, heavy recoil might induce problems to them. They lost a contract with the mil due to the batteries losing connection for an instant and of course shutting down the sight.
My Benelli M2 Tactical has the ghost ring sights and a tapped receiver. I may mount an aimpoint and try it but personaly I am almost as accurate and faster with my M1 Benelli with a regular barrel.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 29, 2008, 08:13 PM:
Why not just use a rifle with a low powered scope... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 30, 2008, 02:22 AM:
"Why not just use a rifle with a low powered scope......"
'Cause when the situation calls for a shotgun, nothing else works quite as well. (Insert happy face)
While I love watching a coyote run in from a half mile out, I also find myself hunting in brush so thick that visability is <45 yards. My kill box will be an opening about 30 to 40 yards around, if I can find an opening. A coyote weaving in thru the brush at a fast lope can do some very impressive footwork at close range when they see the gun being raised. I'm not good enough to regularly make this kind of shot with a rifle........or a shotgun with too tight of a choke.
Posted by MJM (Member # 270) on December 30, 2008, 07:41 AM:
Why use a shotgun ......
Since I'm a skeet shooter I've probably shot more shot shells than more than most, but when hunting predators I'm more of a rifle guy. With that being said, Kokopelli is 100% correct, then add in the fact that we have "Spcial" weapons areas covering huge very productive predator hunting areas around and more importantly BETWEEN population centers here in Arizona. "Special" weapons mean generally short range critters like bows, rimfires and a shotgun shooting shot..... Basically, I use a shotgun because the law says I must....
What scope am I using? .... It's an inexpensive Tru-Glo Red Dot, it's holding up well, no problems there. I knew when I bought it that I'd be changing it out for something better, this was a test to prove a concept. If I stick with the scope or sight or what ever you's call a Holo type sight, it will be the Bushnell Holosight that stays on the gun. I'd like to go with the more expensive EO-Tech but that's just to much money for me.
[ December 30, 2008, 07:42 AM: Message edited by: MJM ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 30, 2008, 10:22 AM:
You know I hate to throw this out here because of all the hate for us "machinegunners" but www.ar15.com has some great deals in the equipment exchange from time to time. I don't reccomend reading some of the garbage on the forums but the EE or classified ads is worth a look.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2008, 11:41 AM:
Come on, Tom. It's not "HATE". It's more like kidding, ribbing, ridicule, dislike and occasionally scorn. Hate is not the right word.
Good hunting. LB
PS and to the guy that wrote and suggested that using a machinegun has something to do with penis inadequacy; I say, it's an interesting theory, but doubt there are that many short dicks in the whole country.
edit: and no, I have no information on what's going on in the padded room. How would I know?
edit: Hmmm? pulling a "Leonard", or what? Says site is "disabled".
[ December 30, 2008, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 30, 2008, 01:10 PM:
All in fun Leonard, guess I better be more careful though, people will beleive anything. Just look at who ya'll voted in for president.
Posted by MJM (Member # 270) on December 30, 2008, 01:36 PM:
Leonard - I must have been the last one to post on "The padded room". I hit the send button, it loaded just fine, then I clicked on something else and got the same message you did. I thought I'd been banned, but the message just didn't look right for a true banning.
By-the-way - I've spent some time over on ar-15.com it's a decent site, hard to maneuver around on, too much stuff and the search function is useless, but a decent site none-the-less.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2008, 01:50 PM:
Yeah, it may be gone, but being worthless, it won't be missed by very many. However, based on a few dropped hints, I think the truly disturbed have created something new and equally repugnant. Apparently, (if so), it is way too exclusive for the unwashed masses? Tickles my don't give a shitter.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on December 30, 2008, 02:34 PM:
"I thought I'd been banned"
If I only had the button, ha ha.
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on December 30, 2008, 02:45 PM:
"edit: Hmmm? pulling a "Leonard", or what? Says site is "disabled"."
I heard like some of the others, it was going to a bigger server/host. Just didn't think it was think it was going to be so soon. Whatever, it's not the 16th round.
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 30, 2008, 03:16 PM:
Originally posted 01/03/08, in this thread;
While I'm not using them on a shotgun, I have some opinions on the subject of EER optics.
In the daylight, and many low light situations a scope will excel, it just plain has a finer POA.
In red-dot sights, quality is everything, in glass, and in projection of the dot(s).
A 5MOA "flare" is almost more harm than good, and not being able to dim the dot enough at night can be problematic too.
Look for a crisp projection on clear window.
I'm not happy with the 2x magnified red-dot at all (Tru-Glo), the optics are extremely poor, the view at edge of the scope is warped, and the magnification doesn't look uniform (getting bigger in the middle).
I looked at the Cabela's multi-dot, when I was down a while back, and liked it, but with the new Mauser the Mosin-Nagant project is on the way back burner.
When I get back to it, I'll be hard pressed not to put the Simons Pro Hunter pistol scope on it, but my 7.62x54R has a lot longer effective range than 50yds.
And;
I never killed anything with either of them, but I can still recognize that the BSA and the Tru-Glo I own are junk.
I handled a pistol at the range the other day, with an Eotech holo, it was really nice, clean glass and a crisp projection, with a very wide field of view.
And yeah, while "waving it around" the dot stays on the POA AND in your view (way more so than a red-dot, which is easily "lost"), so a holosight would be very well suited to shooting at moving targets (or from a less than perfect cheek weld, on a rifle or shotgun).
A buckhorn and a blade might be a cheap alternative, the slug barreled Ithaca Deer Slayer I looked at the other day seemed like it was a lot better sight picture, and more rapid target acquisition, than a single or double bead.
It's hard to aim a shotgun, when they weren't designed to be aimed.
So if you are going to aim one, do so with one designed for it (or altered to do so), eh?
Krusty 
Posted by MJM (Member # 270) on December 30, 2008, 07:56 PM:
K-K - Nicely writen post.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 30, 2008, 08:00 PM:
I am very curious about the new SpeedBead sight from Burris. It is actually designed specifically for a shotgun.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 30, 2008, 08:09 PM:
Hey, have you ever used anything different from "de plain"?
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 30, 2008, 08:41 PM:
I have a Ithica 37 feather weight that had the barrel cut down.
I had the gunsmith thread it for a choke tube and also welded a short rib on end of barrel with a bead site. Then i mounted a HiViz sight on it..
Just point it and shoot..
So simple even Gary Cleaver can do it...
[ December 30, 2008, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 31, 2008, 06:18 AM:
Nope, never have Leonard. I'm pretty sure most of them wouldn't work real well, but where the new Burris one is mounted it may be ok. It is way closer to your eye so may give you a bigger field of view without the perception that you are looking through something. I may have to order one.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 31, 2008, 06:58 AM:
Cal, I've been looking at those too. The thing that has me shying away, is that I had basically the same sight on a different type of mount on a Ruger .22/45. That one was pretty fussy about eye placement. At least compared to one of the holo sights like the Eotech or Bushnell. Accurate as hell though. I was able to routinely knock prairie dogs down at 50 yards with that pistol (off the side view mirror). Also, the one I had was a bit flaky - sometimes it needed to be knocked around a bit to come awake. It was a "Tasco" brand though. But, then, I think they are all made by one company, because they all look basically identical...
Anyway... No experience with a shotgun, myself, let alone a sighting system on one. But, I found a new unfired 870 under the bed, I had forgot I had, and am going to get it setup for just in case I ever want to try a shotgun on a coyote. Leaning real heavy towards the Eotech or Bushnell, m'self.
- DAA
Posted by Joel Hughes (Member # 384) on December 31, 2008, 09:11 AM:
I had not heard about the speed bead. Thanks for mentioning it, Cal. It looks interesting and much better than other shotgun sites I have tried before. I had a bushnell holosight on my 10 gauge for about a week, using one of those saddle-type bases. Was too bulky for me.
For those google-challenged:
Specs:
http://www.burrisoptics.com/speedbead.html
Prices:
http://www.swfa.com/c-2178-burris-speed-bead-systems.aspx
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 31, 2008, 11:06 AM:
If either your or Cal tries one, please do let us know how you like it.
- DAA
Posted by MJM (Member # 270) on December 31, 2008, 11:13 AM:
After looking hard at the Speed Bead I rejected it, but honestly can't tell you why. IT sems perfect for a shotgun application. Light, close tot he eye and a truly different mounting system for shotguns. I.E. a small plate designed to go between the stock and the receiver. The plate looks lite to me but that means nothing, the idea has possibilities.
I took the advice to look on AR15.com for sights, I took the plunge(edit: for a Bushnell HOLOsight). There's a fellow that is selling them shipped for $200.00. He has several (edit: Bushnell HOLOsights') available and the man is quick. I sent him his money and before I got up this morning the scope was in the mail with a tracking number. If you've looked a the price of these scopes/sights lately you know this is a good deal. One thing I found interesting though. He posted that Bushnell is discontinuing this product in the future.....
[ December 31, 2008, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: MJM ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 31, 2008, 11:41 AM:
Michael, clarity is rather important around here. So, you rejected SpeedBead, but what did you buy? It is SpeedBead that is rumored to be discontinued in the future?
Good hunting. LB
edit: also, who's the fellow? I saw nothing?
[ December 31, 2008, 11:55 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by MJM (Member # 270) on December 31, 2008, 11:52 AM:
Leonard, good point. When posting on the other board I noticed my post was cloudy at best. I was still stuck on the Bushnell HOLOsight. Over on AR15.com there is a post saying that Bushnell is going to discontinue the HOLOsight.
The Speedbead is available many places for less than $200.00. You need to be careful though, someof them don't have mounts and you need to buy them seperately. The one I was looking at has a weaver type mount already on it.
edit: DAA - I saw your post over on P-Masters. I hope the information I gave on Shotgun barrels is helpful to you.
[ December 31, 2008, 11:57 AM: Message edited by: MJM ]
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on December 31, 2008, 05:22 PM:
I'm really interested in TRIJICON's adjustable shotgun night sights...
"Rugged, steel rear sight has quick-to-use, single screw adjustment for windage and elevation that won't work loose with recoil. Ghost ring aperture has two tritium inserts for fast, accurate, sight picture. Steel, post front sight has single, glowing tritium dot that puts you on target fast in daylight or darkness. Glass lamps are sealed within aluminum cylinders with polished sapphire windows that give a crisp outline of light."
SPECS: Steel, matte finish, black. Fits plain barrel Rem. 870, 1100 and 11-87. May be adapted to other models. Requires drilling and tapping receiver. Front sight epoxies over factory sight. Includes epoxy.
[ December 31, 2008, 05:22 PM: Message edited by: smithers ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 03, 2009, 02:58 PM:
Played with the Speed Bead at the local sporting goods store today and I am going to order one on Monday. I think it might be worthwhile, but will know more after I get it and shoot it for a while.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 03, 2009, 04:12 PM:
I'm thinking the same thing, 3toes. I like the concept, a lot, price is reasonable and Burris doesn't make junk, good reputation. The selection is a bit limited, but I have an 11-87 that would work. By the way, which Benelli is the best, I don't really know, they seem to have so many models now?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 04, 2009, 05:59 AM:
I'm not sure what you want in a shotgun Leonard. But as far as me personally I have the M2. It's only limitation is that it won't shoot the 3 1/2 inch shells. You have to get the Super Black Eagle for that. But I never have seen a need for the 3 1/2s for coyotes. As for the ones we shoot out of the air, they are all M1s or M2s.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 04, 2009, 09:28 AM:
Okay, I understand that you may not know exactly what I am looking for....but you have a pretty good idea, considering that we mere citizens aren't allowed to shoot anythng from an airplane. Close cover, washes, etc.
While there is no real advantage to 3½ inch shells, RIGHT AT THE MOMENT, you never know when the bureaucrats are going to decide that lead and heavy shot is out and plastic or aluminum is in, or something else, so I like the advantage of a 3½ inch chamber, in spite of the extra length.
Anyway, the M2 looks good, but what about the M4? Why all the hype about the inertia recoil system and then with this gun they use a gas operating system, or some sort of hybred? It appears to be the only model available with a shorter barrel and I could get it without the pistol grip. Thank God they only sell the skeletonized stock to law enforcement!!!!!!! Puts my mind at ease!!!!!!!
M2 looks like a decent compromise, if I could get it with a 24" barrel.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 04, 2009, 05:46 PM:
I actually have the 22 inch barrel on my personal M2. Nice and light. All the others I have shot are the 24 inch. I have zero experience with the M4.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on January 04, 2009, 05:56 PM:
I like the shorter barrels. Just out of curiosity, LB, why would you rather have the 24?
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 04, 2009, 08:55 PM:
The M2 can be had without the pistol grip, even in 24" barrel. But the SBE is still probably going to be your best bet if you need 3.5" shells.
(edit; The M4 has a softer felt recoil but had some problems being load sensitive. It is the M1/M2 that actualy has had problems mounting extra crap on them. sorry, it's been a while since I was comparing them.)
[ January 05, 2009, 05:33 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on January 04, 2009, 09:16 PM:
I don't use a shotgun on coyotes, but I do shoot one. In my opinion, the SBE is the way to go. Be advised that even with an extended magazine full of bullets and a mercury recoil reducer, the thing kills at both ends.
Randy
edited to add....talking 3.5 inchers here.
[ January 04, 2009, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: R.Shaw ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on January 04, 2009, 10:24 PM:
Im right behind Shaw, I don't use scatterguns for coyotes, but I have shot my fair share of them for several different types of shotgun competition.
I shot a few of the M1s,M2s etc, and they all had pretty stout recoil, versus the soft and very recoverable recoil of an 1100.
Ive never seen any of them in the winners circle at any speed type shooting event I ever participated in,and Im sure those guys wanted the most reliable shotgun they could use.
Just what is the draw to the M2/M4 shotgun platform? An 1100 can be fitted with any type choke, any other shotgun can have stuffed down the muzzle.
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on January 04, 2009, 10:38 PM:
The biggest draw to the m1 and m2's is a semi auto platform that is easy to add a tube extender which increases your shell capacity. I would have to do a little research, but I don't think the 1100 had that capability without customization when the m1's were introduced. I actually looked at them for doing 3-gun competitions before I ever thought of hunting with one.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 04, 2009, 11:44 PM:
Vic, ain't cha heard? Loony Tunes has kilt over 50 coyotes so far this season with a shotgun, on a ladder. To say nada about clever Gary and his OU.
I just thought I'd do a bit of it fer laughs; is all.
Good hunting. LB
But, I agree, I don't really feel right facing coyotes with just a shotgun but I have no prob with one of each, when indicated.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on January 05, 2009, 05:52 AM:
Tbrad, yeah, the 1100 has had the extended tube feature for ions. I have shot three gun,and IPSC associated shotgun and other speed events, using several different 1100s with mag tube extensions over 25 years ago. No smithing was ever required, just screw off the mag tube end cap,and screw on the extension,add the barrel/mag tube butterfly clamp and you had it.
There must be a certain "cache" about the Benelli, but I have never quite seen what it is?
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on January 05, 2009, 05:55 AM:
For What It's Worth;
You guys loading up with extended tubes or removing plugs for coyotes may want to be sure you're on firm legal ground with the local L.E. I've ran into wardens in a couple of states who didn't care what was being hunted; if the shotgun held the fourth round, a ticket was going to be written.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 05, 2009, 06:18 AM:
I guess everybody has thier own experiences with reliability, but I do know that every agency that I am familiar with shoots Bennelli. It's kind of hard to mechanic on one in an airplane or chopper. When I was working privately I tried a Remington 550 for a while. I had hell with that thing.
It was actually an 1100, but I called it my 550 because it only worked about half the time!
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on January 05, 2009, 10:01 AM:
Like Cal said, it is reliability. At least for me. Shot 1100/1187 for years and with the rubber o rings and multiple moving parts, it was simply a matter of time before one would quit cycling. Clean or no clean.If a gun was broke- down at a shoot, you could bet it was an 1100 or a Perazzi. LOL.
The Berreta/Benelli has one moving part and really doesnt require much cleaning at all. Think I have cleaned mine once in 10 years. Just shoot it and forget it.
Most of the time if there is an issue with the SBE cycling low pressure loads, it has to do with the spring in the butt of the stock. One time mine had been subjected to water for a several day span and that spring rusted. Removed the stock and cleaned the spring and all was good. There is a stainless steel spring available now that solves that problem.
Randy
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2009, 10:10 AM:
I'm sure you guys are right, but I have never had a malfunction with my 11-87, and doubt it has been cleaned more than three times in the last ten years? Anyway, I buy the reliability arguement (cache') just makes sense; mechanical versus gas operated.
I had an old Remington that worked the same way years ago; wish I had never gotten rid of it! 11-47 11-48, something like that?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 18, 2009, 08:35 AM:
Well, this isn't relavent to MJM because he already bought a sight, but this speedbead is a really really good shotgun sight. I am very impressed and never thought I would like a sight of any kind on a shotgun. It sits closer to the eye so you can shoot both eyes open and just like shooting without a sight. The only difference is you see the bright red dot. The other thing that is really cool about the way this sight is set up is that if you run the battery dead or forget to turn it on, you can still see your normal bead. You don't even really notice that you are looking through anything. That is a huge plus to me because invariably someday I will forget to turn it on.
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 18, 2009, 08:52 AM:
So has anybody shot a stoeger and compared it to the benelli?
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 20, 2009, 07:03 PM:
Ok answered my own questions about the stoeger. Im leaning towards the M2.
Does anybody use the steady grip(pistol grip), do you like?
The shotgun that I was shooting was a 24in barrel and liked it because it was short and light but do you think a longer barrel will help a guy aim and shoot better though?
[ January 20, 2009, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: JeremyKS ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on January 20, 2009, 07:40 PM:
Jeremy I have a M1 with a 21" barrel and regular stock. For wing shooting it gets the nod.
I also have a M2 with 18" barrel, ghost ring sights and the pistol grip stock. For sitting on a stand with the gun resting on sticks and for aiming, it works well.
While I like the M2 and the SBE, the M1 is still my favorite shotgun. And I prefer the shorter barrels, dove hunted with the 28" SBE and missed just as many.
550... I like that.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 20, 2009, 08:01 PM:
Jeremy, I think it depends on how much of a natural shotgun pointer you are? The theory is that a longer sighting plane is better than a short one. The theory also says that the longer barrel, makes the gun muzzle heavy and is better for follow through. The instinctive shooters don't need the advantage, but the rest of us do. I do not believe a pistol grip is any advantage (at all) in swinging a shotgun on a moving animal. Looks cool, but I'm skeptical? 24" seems like a good compromise, to me but shotguns and people are all different.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on January 20, 2009, 08:48 PM:
I agree with the longer sighting plane that Leonard suggested. Works for me and I dont use a sight. Most competion shooters start with a 30 inch barrel and go up from there.
One thing to add. The receiver of the Benelli is about 2 inches longer than other shotguns. Meaning a Benelli with a 28 inch barrel will have the same sighting plane as another equipped with a 30 and the total length will be the same.
Randy
Posted by smithers (Member # 646) on January 21, 2009, 05:04 PM:
I have a Remington SPS Max Gobbler that has the Knoxx Spec ops stock with the pistol grip. I love it. I am a fan of thumbhole stocks and pistol grips though.
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