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Author
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Topic: Shotgun Scopes or Red Dot Sights?
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted January 02, 2008 05:21 PM
Anyone have good or bad things to say about their red dot sights or scopes that they have on top of their shotguns. I am looking to be a little more accurate when taking the 50 yard shots. This would also be used at night. Thanks in advance.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted January 02, 2008 06:53 PM
TLBradford,
While I'm not using them on a shotgun, I have some opinions on the subject of EER optics.
In the daylight, and many low light situations a scope will excel, it just plain has a finer POA.
In red-dot sights, quality is everything, in glass, and in projection of the dot(s).
A 5MOA "flare" is almost more harm than good, and not being able to dim the dot enough at night can be problematic too.
Look for a crisp projection on clear window.
I'm not happy with the 2x magnified red-dot at all (Tru-Glo), the optics are extremely poor, the view at edge of the scope is warped, and the magnification doesn't look uniform (getting bigger in the middle).
I looked at the Cabela's multi-dot, when I was down a while back, and liked it, but with the new Mauser the Mosin-Nagant project is on the way back burner.
When I get back to it, I'll be hard pressed not to put the Simons Pro Hunter pistol scope on it, but my 7.62x54R has a lot longer effective range than 50yds. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Krusty 
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted January 03, 2008 11:32 AM
Thanks Krusty, I am glad you mentioned the tru-glo, since that is one I was considering. I am looking at the holographic sights so I don't lose much on the running shots.
I just can't get my eyes to focus on the open sights and target on my standing shots anymore.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted January 03, 2008 12:42 PM
TLBradford,
I'm glad I could help, and that I have at least one opinion with some validity. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I never killed anything with either of them, but I can still recognize that the BSA and the Tru-Glo I own are junk.
I handled a pistol at the range the other day, with an Eotech holo, it was really nice, clean glass and a crisp projection, with a very wide field of view.
And yeah, while "waving it around" the dot stays on the POA AND in your view (way more so than a red-dot, which is easily "lost"), so a holosight would be very well suited to shooting at moving targets (or from a less than perfect cheek weld, on a rifle or shotgun).
A buckhorn and a blade might be a cheap alternative, the slug barreled Ithaca Deer Slayer I looked at the other day seemed like it was a lot better sight picture, and more rapid target acquisition, than a single or double bead.
It's hard to aim a shotgun, when they weren't designed to be aimed.
So if you are going to aim one, do so with one designed for it (or altered to do so), eh?
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 04, 2008 07:49 PM
I don't have one on a shotgun but I'll throw out some things I've learned about them on rifles.
If you have "Astigmatism" the dot will blur out some. The eo-tech is several small dots to me in a short line. Aimpoints aren't as bad for some reason.
They work best if your dominant eye is your shooting eye. You really don't focus on the dot but instead focus on the target.
One of the strangest things is to close the front cover on my Aimpoint and I can still hit my target just fine. My left eye concentrates on the target and my right eye superimposes the dot there. Other words, field of view is unlimited and moving targets are easier than trying to use a traditional scope, that's the greatest reason for red dots to me.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted January 05, 2008 09:33 AM
Krusty made the best point, shotguns were not meant to be aimed. I suppose if you have coyotes standing you could use it like the turkey hunters do, but for me a shotgun is for the coyotes running over you and running away after the first shot. If you have to take the time to find a sight and aim it I think you have lost the benefits of the shotgun. If you have shot one alot, it is more of an instictual thing. You don't really need a sight picture, you just focus on the target a pull the trigger and stuff dies. Fast, fast , fast. Thats just my experience, but if a sight helps you by all means have at it. Maybe it's me thats missing something!
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted January 05, 2008 10:05 AM
Cal, I think you are correct, in theory?
However, speaking as someone that has a dominate eye condition and has always been somewhat challenged with a shotgun, I can say that the combination of tight chokes and large diameter shot and fewer pellet count causes some people to get more deliberate in their shooting. This overrides the instinctual and they tend to get a little more "deliberate" which is where the "aiming" comes into play. Nobody is saying it's a universal solution to instinctual "pointing" but if it helps a few people, then who cares if the solution flies in the face of conventional wisdom?
I'm all for holographic sights for those having trouble with target acquision if it improves their confidence and helps with the "harvest". Maybe a little of this and a little of that and at some point, they can take the training wheels off?
Good hunting. LB
edit: seems like everybody "aims" a shotgun when they attempt to pattern a load?
[ January 05, 2008, 11:20 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32370 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted January 05, 2008 10:54 AM
Cal, your desription of the standing coyote and using the sight like a turkey hunter is the exact situation I am thiking of. I am really worried putting a sight on my shotgun will be more of a hindrance than a help on the running shots. It just seems like I am having that first shot be a standing shot more often than not, so I am ending up aiming instead of pointing and letting instinct take over. Maybe the solution is a case of shells and clays where I just practice on stationary targets.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Krustyklimber
prefers the bunny hugger pronunciation: ky o tee
Member # 72
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posted January 05, 2008 12:44 PM
TLBradford,
I was with you, "I just can't get my eyes to focus on the open sights and target on my standing shots anymore."
Just like you and Cal, I thought turkey, too. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
But I also think of patterning.
You learn a lot about pointing a shotgun at a stationary object, and a lot about where it actually put the whole pattern (and what that pattern looks like), by patterning different loads.
Instead of blasting away at small targets like clays, get a stack of cardboard, all your choke tubes, and a variety from non-toxic goose loads through buckshot... and see what you, and your shotgun like.
Leonard stated it very well, "I can say that the combination of tight chokes and large diameter shot and fewer pellet count causes some people to get more deliberate in their shooting."
So why limit yourself with a lower pellet count than necessary?
Granted, an ounce and an eighth of shot isn't always equal in terms of penetration, but since shot with the penetration power of #2 lead shot is minimum (generally) acceptable baseline, why not find a happy medium between it and #4 buckshot?
Letting the longest shot you'd take fill in as part of the criteria, for making that choice.
Hot (heavier than lead, non-toxic) goose loads carry similar energy, to copper plated BBs, and should pattern as well or better than #4 and bigger buckshot, thereby delivering a higher percentage of it's energy to the target, and should drive that shot deep enough to do the job.
And these types of loads, while they might fall short of the distances Dead Coyote shooters are experiencing (and or claiming), are considerably more affordable.
The more I thought about this, the more I like the idea of a smoothbore, rifle sighted, "deer shotgun".
You'd have very good stationary target control, and wouldn't lose as much to moving shots as you would with a shotgun scope or either type of "electrics".
A coyote is bigger than a turkey neck, so even though you want you pattern just as tight, you don't need as much of a "pin point" point of aim.
The best money I ever spent on shotgunning, was one of those red plastic hand throwers for clay pigeons.
Only a pistol action shooter needs to be more accustomed to shooting without looking, than the scattergunner.
And you can only get that through practice.
Even for all the times it's bit me on the ass (limiting my range), I still feel most confident in my shooting ability when I have (one of) my shotgun(s).
Krusty
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Think about how stupid the average person is, then realize that half of them are stupider than that!
Posts: 1912 | From: Deep in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia | Registered: Jan 2003
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted January 05, 2008 08:57 PM
The shotgun is patterned and I stick with 3" #4 buck through it, because I am with you and gag at the cost of the hevishot, even though it is great stuff. I would rather buy a case of 250 shells for $90, than 30 for the same price.
I removed the back bead on my Benelli tonight. I have always hated two beads on a shotgun, and maybe this will eliminate the tendency to want to aim.
The more I think about it, the stationary practice is what I need the help on. I have shot thousands of rounds at sporting clays, and birds over the years, and consider myself a good shot. Other than patterning, and a few dozen shots on standing coyotes and turkeys, I have never practiced these types of shots. I have no "instinct" for making this shot. To me this might be comparable to instinctual shooting of a longbow. Focus on the target, release when hitting my anchor point.
Krusty your "deer-type" open sight shotgun might be great. Unfortunately my eyes just can't use these sights anymore. Did you mean cowboy action shooter, for not using sights? I shoot a lot of USPSA and ISPC with a pistol and you always have your front sight in perfect focus, with the target and rear sight slightly blurry.
Cal, Do you normally take a shotgun and a rifle to your stands?
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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3 Toes
El Guapo
Member # 1327
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posted January 07, 2008 05:45 AM
tl,
Probably 50% of my stands or a little more I do have a shotgun along. More and more I notice myself looking at stands and thinking of ways to set up so that the shotgun has a chance of some work.
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Violence may not be the best option....
But it is still an option.
Posts: 1034 | From: out yonder | Registered: Apr 2007
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted January 08, 2008 03:24 AM
TL, if you shoulder your shotgun and you can see that it has two beads I suspect that your gun doesn't fit you very well, you have a dominate eye issue, a form issue, or a combination of the above. Or you didn't mount the shotgun to your shoulder rapidly - more than likely you "snuck" the gun to your shoulder and tried to aim it...
I know that you can miss real big when shooting with a shotgun where you have stealthily (read as "slowly") brought the gun to your shoulder, totally losing the advantage of throwing the gun (a good fitting one) to your shoulder and firing in a natural pointing motion. Your head is up and the gun not tucked in - you miss the target by yards.
I do better if I don't think about aiming and don't sneak the gun to my shoulder. Mount 'er up and fire, just like flushing quail.
Aiming a shotgun is the beginning of a recipe for disaster unless it does have sights, and I think that is unnecessary if you handle it like a shotgun and point and shoot.
I can shoot a pretty mean shotgun but can become a total embarrassment if I stop to think of how I'm shooting or aiming. I shoot three shotguns frequently - two have two beads and one has one. When I shoot at a target I'm not conscious of any of them having any beads.
One word on the red dots - they are next to useless on a bright day with snow cover. I have a 3 MOA Millet dot that I tried on a pistol for deer hunting and learned that lesson the hard way. I was a paper punching machine but failed miserably at hunting when we had a bit of snow cover.
I replaced it with a Nikon 2x - something like that might be a worthy remedy if you must aim that shotgun.
Posts: 658 | From: Midwest | Registered: Aug 2003
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tlbradford
Rimfires are MAGIC on COYOTES! If you do your part
Member # 1232
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posted January 08, 2008 04:14 AM
Joe, You are absolutely correct on your reasons for seeing two beads. This gun has a fiber optic front sight and a metal back bead. It was designed to hunt turkeys, and that is where I am making my mistake I think. I pulled the back bead off to help me try to eliminate the tendency to want to aim. It sounds like the red dots are great for target shooting, but not so great for hunting. Thanks for the heads up everyone. I bought a case of #8 and a case of clays. If this doesn't get me on the right track, then I will probably sell the shotgun, and get something that has a better fit and points a little more naturally.
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"Dan Carey ain't that special" - LB
Posts: 423 | From: Spokane Valley, WA | Registered: Mar 2007
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 08, 2008 05:42 AM
I've never used a "cheap" red dot but I can tell you Aimpoints and eo-techs are expensive for a reason. Never base performance of all on a cheap knock off.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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JoeF
resides "back east"
Member # 228
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posted January 08, 2008 05:58 PM
Tom, do the higher dollar systems overcome the failures in bright light like you would encounter on a bright day with snow cover?
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted January 08, 2008 09:04 PM
From my limited experience with snow, yes. Remember, I can close the front cover and have red on black and still make hits. Now if you've been staring into the sun and your pupils are the size of a pin head, I don't know. Snow blind is snow blind.
I've looked at some cheaper red dots and just don't think people should base their opinions of RDS on them.
They aren't for everyone (see reasons above) but if you can use one, nothing is faster.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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NASA
Knows what it's all about
Member # 177
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posted January 14, 2008 12:42 PM
quote:
Aimpoints and eo-techs are expensive for a reason.
At around $400 each, I would have to agree. I have one of each, on my AR's. They are great for fast acquisition under 50 yds.
Posts: 1168 | From: Typical White Person | Registered: Apr 2003
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Nahuatl
Knows what it's all about
Member # 708
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posted January 17, 2008 11:12 AM
I added a green Tru-Glo two bead rear to the stock front red fiber sight on an Xtrema I use and it still swings and shoots naturally like a shotgun with just an added bit of aim and adjustability.
Posts: 202 | From: Mount Gleason, Angeles NF | Registered: Sep 2005
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