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Posted by Redrider (Member # 79) on February 05, 2003, 01:38 AM:
 
Does anyone have any info, or comments about Mag IVs? I was looking at a 3x12x50AO on E-bay for around $50.00. Is it of the same quality as the "World Class" line? I have had decent performance from the one on my 30-06.
My other question is what in the world is a "30/30 reticle", and where is it derived from? Does it have some way of rangefinding?
 

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Posted by S.Frame (Member # 89) on February 06, 2003, 07:31 AM:
 
Red, Tasco went belly up last year so I would sure think twice about any new purchase. The mag IV’s are utter junk anyway as are most Tasco products, especially their crude out-of-round rings and useless bases.

The “World Class” series was Tasco’s attempt to enter into the mid-price market, and the first few production runs offered for sale in the U.S. were made by Hakko in Japan, an optics manufacturer that makes scopes according to a customers OEM specs (Tasco never actually manufactured ANYTHING themselves), and actually were pretty decent scopes for the price.

Soon after introduction, production was shifted; first to Taiwan, and then to China and the quality reverted to the same old Trashco crap that they have always been famous for, although the price remained the same.

That is the reason for the widely varying reports and opinions of “World Class” users. If you have a Japanese Hakko manufactured WC, it is at least decent quality. The Chinese made versions aren’t worth putting on a BB gun.

Few things in life are more frustrating than junk scopes. There are no bargains when it comes to optics.

BTW the 30/30 is a range finding reticle of sorts. If you are still interested, crunch up this link: the skinny on the 30/30
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 06, 2003, 08:45 AM:
 
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Shaun. Glad to have your insight. Your regard for Tasco closely resembles mine....worthless for serious applications.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 06, 2003, 11:37 AM:
 
Cool!
Red (my little brother) will be so glad the server had a back-up, as I am sure you are too Leonard!

I hope he's not too bummed to hear the scope he has now is junk. LOL
But he shoulnd't be it's on a gun some would consider junk now... he has a Sears 30-06, with a Tasco Mag IV.

Junk, some would say...

With it he regularly shoots groups he could cover with a quarter, so I guess it's all relative.

Red should have added to his original post, that he is a single father (here's where I add, a damn good one!) and he's dirt poor. So quality is important but price needs to be a big consideration... he's already way overextended himself financially to get more gear than we ever could need. (just the big bro' in me, lookin' out for him)

Jeff
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 06, 2003, 01:23 PM:
 
You are right to bring the subject down to dollars and cents. Some advice is geared to the sophisticated user, and some folks are at the other end of the spectrum. But, it still pays to know the situation, going in. Buy what you can afford, that's for sure.

Many times, young eyes do quite well with inexpensive optics, under optimum conditions. Drop it, and it's another story. Use it when it's dark, and it's another story. Reach the point where you start to wear corrective lenses, and it's another story. At that point, looking through superior glass is a revelation.

Good hnting. LB

edited for spelling

[ February 06, 2003, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 07, 2003, 11:26 AM:
 
Oh so that's how it is?

Now we're unsophisticated?!? LOL

An unsophisticated shooter, with a junk rifle, thrash for a scope (he actually has a WC now), still shoots groups you can cover with a pieplate at 300yds... you can't argue with results.

No really, it's all good, we can take it as good as we dish it out... an we can dish it out!

Jeff
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 07, 2003, 12:05 PM:
 
Okay, Krusty, my bad. He's dirt poor, but a crack shot.

I will never forget the first time I looked through a Leupold scope. At the time, I had what I thought was a top of the line Redfield. I also remember the first time I looked through premium european glass.

I think S Frame was assuming that the purchase had not been made, and Redrider didn't identify himself as dirt poor, to begin with. Nine times out of ten, I'm guilty of the assumption that people want opinion based on quality, and serviceability.

Don't be so sensitive, you got me on a guilt trip.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 07, 2003, 01:23 PM:
 
Leaving the relative quality and affordability aside - $50 for that scope is a bad deal. Seen them locally awhile back for $29, new. The Mag series was always one of Tasco's lowest, never sold for as much or considered as good as a World Class. You can get a brand new World Class for $50 - $60, just about anywhere. Save your pennies for another few weeks, step up to the $70 range, and you can get a Simmons Pro-hunter, which are nice and sturdy at least.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 07, 2003, 05:06 PM:
 
Leonard,

I wasn't being sensitive, I was being my usual smartass self...
I said it was "all good" and we can take it in the good humor it was meant to be.

Please, don't feel bad, 'cause I sure don't!

I did say Red shoulda said he was poor, and that way he wouldn't get advise intended for Bill Gates and friends.

You have to try real hard to hurt my feelings (and I'll let you know if you actually have), and I don't think Red has any feelings to hurt.

It's all fun 'til somebody gets hurt...
Then it's hilarious!!!

Jeff

P.S. Rule #1 Everything Krusty says is in good fun...

Rule #2 Red is full of it... he's actually way smart about this stuff, he just likes to hear somebody confirm that his ideas are good ones.
 

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Posted by S.Frame (Member # 89) on February 07, 2003, 05:26 PM:
 
Asking for opinions/comments about gear and such is a lot like deep-sea fishing; you never quite know just what you will dredge up, but you sure better be ready for whatever takes the bait, eh?

I gave my honest opinion based on what I could infer from the information supplied and after all, Lil' Brother DID ask, didn’t he?

I can't help but wonder why someone would ask for “info and comments” if they have already formed such solid opinions?

In any event he needs no assistant apologist big Brother.

None of us intended to come off as “scope snobs.” Leonard, DAA, and I are just supplying Red with the best information we can based on our personal experience. Should we feel as guilty about that as you seem to?

I "made do" for a whole lot of years with a wide variety of inferior "junk" that in some cases was down-right embarrassing, but that sure didn't keep me out of the fields. Back when it was MY turn to be dirt poor, I felt a twinge or two of envy once in a while, and yes, I did feel embarrased a time or two.

Sometimes in the presence of certain company I did things like hold my old Stevens 311 so that the electrical tape that held the broken forend on wasn't so obvious, but the pheasants and cottontails didn't know or care, and when I had blood in my eye and was really focused on hunting, neither did I.

You probably wouldn’t believe the chucks I killed years ago with a cheap-o Savage 340 in .222 that had a gawdawful dark murky ¾ inch P.O.S. $7 scope attached with a homemade side mount. Was it a good rig?….Hell no, but all things are relative. Would I use it today?....Hell no; but I sure did then, and I was damn glad to have it as it was the best I could afford at that time, and I was never ashamed about that.

Pride of ownership means quite a bit to me, but not nearly as much as my obligations to my family.

I do believe I would live on beans and PB&Jelly sandwiches for however long it took to save up a bit more for some decent glass though.

If you have already bought the darn thing, good luck to you Red. Keep up the good work.

Thanks for the welcome LB; this looks like a first class operation. I see a lot of familiar faces.

Dave, good to see you here too.

S.Frame
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 07, 2003, 11:31 PM:
 

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Asking for opinions/comments about gear and such is a lot like deep-sea fishing; you never quite know just what you will dredge up, but you sure better be ready for whatever takes the bait, eh?

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I gave my honest opinion based on what I could infer from the information supplied and after all, Lil' Brother DID ask, didn’t he?

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I can't help but wonder why someone would ask for “info and comments” if they have already formed such solid opinions?

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In any event he needs no assistant apologist big Brother.

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None of us intended to come off as “scope snobs.”

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Should we feel as guilty about that as you seem to?

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Pride of ownership means quite a bit to me, but not nearly as much as my obligations to my family.

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On this you and Red agree. He is a hell of a guy, raising his son pretty much all on his own. It cuts into our hunting and playing time but I'd trade a million days of hunting to have a son, and I'm willing to trade at least half that many to be an uncle!

Red does already own a Tasco World Class (3x9x50) and it works good for him now. We have a couple more rifles around we could hunt with if they were scoped, so we are trying to get them up and running without cutting too deeply into our PB&J budget.

Thanks for all your replies, that is after all what this board is all about...

The exchange and debate of ideas and information.

And any good debate needs two sides, I just so happen to be on the side that has to pick up any slack created by Red's overspending... he eats me out of house and home. LOL

Jeff
 

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Posted by Woodworker (Member # 85) on February 08, 2003, 02:44 AM:
 
Oh by the way...(not that I would buy one) but tasco was bought by Bushnell not too long ago. Whether this is good or bad I could not tell you
 

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Posted by catskin (Member # 51) on February 08, 2003, 09:55 PM:
 
I’ve been on two hunts with Shaun, even roomed with him both times, yet I’ve been successful in never actually having to hunt with him for fear he may see my Tasco’s Of course, after skinning the results of his shooting this last time out, I understand why he needs a more upper class scope. LOL. Just kidding!

Shaun, I meant to ask you, I need to replace three of them Tascos, they lasted for quite a few years but these three are toast – what is the most bang for the buck scope keeping in mind that I’m also poor as Dirt – I need 2 3x9 +/- types for a 338/06 and 7/08 model seven and one target type for a Marlin 17 hummer. I wanted to email but it keeps bouncing back – you can email me at ******** if ya like.

Dog dang it Shaun, I came back to get your addy and it's gone -

[ February 12, 2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: catskin ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 08, 2003, 10:07 PM:
 
Catskin; I'm relieved to hear that you're having a problem e-mailing S Frame.

I tried it for a day and a half, once.

Conclusion: it can't be done.

I hope he checks back here, for you.

Good hunting. LB

edit: actually, he does in fact, have a valid e-mail, I peeked.

[ February 08, 2003, 10:18 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Redrider (Member # 79) on February 09, 2003, 01:15 AM:
 
Thank you all for your advice, most helpfull as usuall. I have had my eye on one scope in particular for a while, that is the Leo VX-I 4x12. That's the beauty of being poor is that it leaves plenty of time for research. Some say the Leo's are overpriced compared to what others offer. But it's hard to know for sure without trying them all, and if I could do that then I could just get one good scope and not experiment with many scopes trying to find a good one. That's why I ask advice in the first place, to hopefully learn from others experience.

P.S. S.Frame try some decaf and lighten up a little why don't ya. You should be so lucky to have a bro like Krusty.

Again thanks for your input. Happy shooting.
 

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Posted by S.Frame (Member # 89) on February 09, 2003, 09:28 AM:
 
Red, various plant alkaloids are all that keep me going sometimes.

You are truly a fortunate man to have such a brother. I had one like that once, but he got all used up by Uncle Sam in S.E Asia thirty one years ago.

But I divagate; scuse please.

Lueopolds ARE overpriced in my opinion, if you strictly compare optical quality only, but with a Leo you get pretty good service (at leat the two times I had to use it), good sturdy quality that will take a beating and still perform, and the highest re-sale value of any brand on the market.

What's the best bang for the buck? That's a tough question.

IOR Valdada comes quickly to mind. They are relatively unknown here for now, but given a year or two, most will know about them.

They are made in Buceresti Romania using lenses from Schott optics works in Germany, widely regarded as the best lenses in the world....period. They use the Carl Zeiss T-3 coating technology and the reticles are etched into the lenses. I picked up a fixed 6X40mm with the 4-A reticle a while back for $240 and the optical quality is simply amazing. As good as my Zeiss that cost 4 times as much. I am planning on sticking it atop my Armalite 180B that I used to butcher those coyotes that catskin skinned for me. Maybe then I'll do less damage IOR 6 power

Watch for them. Comming soon to a gun show near you.

I bought a B&L (oops...now Bushnell) Elite 3200 5X15 AO the other day and installed it on my Kimber 84m .22-250 yesterday. Very good glass for the price. At least the equal of the "Gold ring" for quite a bit less money. I'd take it over the VX-II any day. It even comes with a 6" sun shade and lense covers. A lot more usefull than the green hanky Leupold sticks in their box. Bear Basin has the 3x9x40 for $179 but I have seen them going for as little as $150 new on sale.

Hell, I'm not that hard to get a hold of.

If all else fails: phone #614-895-3562

Edited to remove e-mail addy stuff; hope whoever wanted it, got it.

[ February 11, 2003, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: S.Frame ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 09, 2003, 10:27 AM:
 
Shaun, what the shooting fraternity needs is an optics bargain. I hope you have discovered one!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 09, 2003, 01:06 PM:
 
See what I mean? Fulltime job.

Geez Red, lighten up a little yourself.

I said "we could take it", and this MR. Frame guy seems like a hella dude! If he didn't fully answer your queery now (and hook you up with the hot tip)... I don't know what!?!

Now thank the nice man, and go to your room! And no video games!

Shaun, I am truly sorry to hear of the loss of your brother... mine obviously mean the world to me, and I to them.
I hope it didn't leave too big of a hole in your life... if you ever need a brother, Red would be glad to loan you his!

Catskin, what makes a scope "toast"?

Jeff
 

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Posted by catskin (Member # 51) on February 09, 2003, 01:43 PM:
 
Mostly them little wire thingy's start spinning, I don't know why, could be the Tasco rings <g>

Thanks Shaun - hopefully you can check out the new glass when the Rats are up.
 

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Posted by S.Frame (Member # 89) on February 10, 2003, 07:47 AM:
 
Catskin, I was cruising Natchez SS this morning and just happened to see that they have the Bushnell 3200 Elite 3X9X40 as a closeout special for $139 NIB. A good deal. Natchez Shooters supply
 

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Posted by Redrider (Member # 79) on February 10, 2003, 09:13 AM:
 
I like the 4x12 line of magnification, with that said here are some deals I have found:

Bushnell 3200 4x12x40 AO, Natchez for $246

Leupold VX-I 4x12x40, Sportsmanstop for $233

Burris compact 4x12PA, Midsouth $312 (I think the B-Plx is cool)

Weaver classic 4x16x42, The Optic Zone for $269

Simmons whitetail exp. 4x12x42, Midsouth $150
They all catch my eye for a different reason. The Bushnell because people say that they compare to the VX-III in quallity.Leupold because that's all my family has ever used, brand loyalty. Plus they have quality and service you can count on. Burris, good quality and a cool reticle. Also good service and quality reports. I like the Weaver because I have a 6x w/dot on my .222 and its seems good. And 16x is better than 12x. The Simmons I don't trust very much but some people have posted positive reports and it's the cheapest. Maybe the quality is too though.

What do you guy's think?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2003, 09:53 AM:
 
Red, could you restate the application? Sixteen is only a higher number than twelve, not necessarily better. Do you see youself as a live target shooter (ie:squirrels) or a dual purpose predator and big game hunter?

In my opinion, a predator hunter has no need for more than twelve power, and most actual shooting is probably done at a lower setting. Myself, I use 5X or 6X as a "pre" setting, and seldom have a reason to change it.

Where I'm going here is that I believe a very good all around scope for mainly predators is the 3.5X10 Leupold VX III 40mm. Other manufacturers make similiar, I'm sure, but the only justification for the high end X's is for load development. That's my opinion.

For the same reason as why a man would need to replace a Tasco, I'd be careful about Weavers because I have heard that they don't hold up under moderate recoil.

Picking one scope to fulfill all your needs is a challenge, as much as depending on one rifle to cover all the bases. One thing I'd like to point out is that with all the chatter about economical variable power scopes, the fixed power models can be had for a lot less money, once you decide on the exact mission and dedicate a rifle for that purpose. Some would say they aren't cool, but they would be wrong.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 10, 2003, 10:15 AM:
 
Ditto what Shaun said on the IOR Valdada. Superb glass, very reasonably priced (for now...).

I've got one of those B&L 3200 5x15's also, on my Marlin .17VS. I'd rate it as the best "bang for the buck" I've got in a scope of that type.

Also have had the Leupold 4x12, and I can honestly say, I think it's one of the worst scopes "for the money" I've ever had. I had no mechanical problems with it or anything, it "worked" perfectly. But for the money, the optics on it are just plain piss-poor. To the point of being a distraction to me. And the old-fashioned friction adjustments really just don't have any reason to exist anymore. Almost ANY other scope of similar price and magnification range is better, in my opinion. Seriously, I think that Leo 4x12 is just a dog.

Have used several Weaver V-16's. Serviceable, but I'd take one of the B&L's over it in a heart beat. Unless you really like the old style fine cross-wire. I know two guys that keep using the V-16 for that very reason. For anything except shooting prairie dogs, I actually prefer a fairly heavy reticle myself.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Redrider (Member # 79) on February 10, 2003, 11:31 AM:
 
O.K. let me state my rifle and application. I should have said so first, oh well...

J.C. Higgins 51-L in 30-06. (HVA action, made in Sweden, basicly a Husqvarna) I just started reloading a year ago, my family had all the gear, lucky me! I would like it to be a jack-of-all-trades kind of gun. Not to worried about fur damage, have to find a predator first before I worry about that. Also elk and deer are on the list of critters.

I am interested in light loads for plinking on up to long distance target shooting. My idea of long is probably alot less than most. I have never really shot long ranges before, takes a real long drive to get to long, legal shooting. I am going to a "High Power Rifle" clinic on Feb. 23, in Machias, Wa. My hunting as I stated includes pretty much anything brown in color. No big bears.

I dont have the best vision, in fact it scares poor Krusty to death on the road sometimes. So a little higher power is inviting to my eyes. I looked on Natches and the Bushnell 3200 4-12 is $245, and 5-15 is $255, although I like the idea of a little more magnification I think 4x is about as high as I want the low end to go. Thick woods in some parts where deer hide.

I've been thinking of cast bullets but not sure about getting a whole bunch of gear to do it; lead melter, sizing dies, molds etc. But I like light loads, for now I've been loading 125g. Rem SP over 14g. of Unique. Nice and soft, or the same bullet over 31g. IMR 4198. Very accurate, sub MOA. Minute of Angle, not Middle of Animal Krusty LOL. No idea of FPS generated, any ideas???

My big game recipe is 56g. of IMR 4350, Sierra 165g. Gameking for deer and 180's for elk. But Hodgson's website list a "youth load" I would like to try for our little whitetails. 39g. H4895, 130g. Hornaday SSP, 2544 FPS.

I hope this gives you all a little more insight to who I am and what I want to do. While no single rifle or scope can do it all, a lot would agree that the good ol' 06 is as close as it gets.

Thanks, Happy shooting!!!!

[ February 10, 2003, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Redrider ]
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 10, 2003, 01:14 PM:
 
I'd put a fixed 6x on that rifle.

If a variable, I'd want 4x or lower on the low end, and wouldn't go higher than 14x on the high end.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Redrider (Member # 79) on February 10, 2003, 01:34 PM:
 
Our .222 (Rem 722) has a fixed Weaver 6x on it, but dont you think a 6x would be a little small for long shooting. The duece can only shoot to about 200 yds and carry enough punch, but the 06 should double that shouldn't it? And my eyes might let me down at that range. Stupid eyes.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 10, 2003, 02:27 PM:
 
Depends on what you mean by long range and what your intended target will be I guess. It didn't sound to me like you plan on shooting small targets at long range. I've shot a lot of prairie dogs at 300 yds with a 6x on a sporter weight .22-250.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2003, 03:05 PM:
 
I think you should forget cast bullets. LB
 

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Posted by Redrider (Member # 79) on February 10, 2003, 03:55 PM:
 
I love how threads change and evolve.

DAA, Me and Krusty saw a bobcat at a distance we are not quite sure of, we are the lamest human rangefinders!!! 350 to 450 yards, we want to go back and walk it off. We had two shotguns with us, stupid, stupid us. We thought we were bird hunting. Spotted it wiht 8x binos. Hmmmm.

Leonard, Why? A.Cost? B.Hassle? Both A and B?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2003, 04:49 PM:
 
You just can't get the level of performance, as with jacketed bullets, and cleaning is a bigger problem. Save that for your obsolete trap doors and lever actions; cowboy stuff. No expansion to speak of, and probably other things I can't remember?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by S.Frame (Member # 89) on February 11, 2003, 06:53 PM:
 
Red, your cast bullet conundrum just might be a good topic to post in the "firearms for varmints and predators" forum. It IS interesting how some some threads evolve, and this one seems to be heading in that direction just now.

I've fooled around a bit with that sort of stuff and can relate my personal experiences, and there is a good chance others may chime in too.

Got any IMR SR-4759 yet? Ever heard how Pope or Ballard rifling differs from todays barrels? Can a fellow shoot cast bullets out of Marlin's"Micro-Groove" barrels"? Gas checks:....how they ruin chronographs, etc.

Not a common topic, but that's all good as far as I can see.

Gawd, I get tired of answering the same old shit!

Start it up on the "FFVAP" forum, and let's see where that leads. What do you think?

I promise to go easy on the Java.

[ February 11, 2003, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: S.Frame ]
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on February 13, 2003, 05:02 PM:
 
Mr. Frame,

I put a bug in Red's ear about this... he's been swamped with Dad stuff, T-ball started.

He said "he'd be back as soon as possible and he'd love to just talk cast bullets"...

Jeff
 

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