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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 05, 2025, 07:00 PM:
I’m confused. I used to think there was no difference besides the designation. But, for years I have been hearing from the chattering crowd that you are risking your very life to be using one type of ammo in your AR15!
What is the truth? Is there some kind of headspace or throating issue? Or what?
So, ‘sprain me? Thanks!
Good hunting. El Bee 🐝
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 05, 2025, 09:37 PM:
5.56 case is slightly bigger. puts out 60,000 psi.
223 puts out 55,000 psi.
5.56 also has little, longer throat, .125
You can fire a 223 round in a 5.56 chamber but cannot fire a 5.56 in a 223 chamber.
Since 5.56 is military round there will be very small selection as far as bullet choices unless someone reloads them for hunting. Not 100% but 5.56 may have a bourdon primer pocket as well, don't reload it so not sure.
Cheap ammo in 223 or 5.56 but only good for target shooting in my opinion.
I used the 5.56 in the military and accuracy wasn't that great and when base had shooting matches different ammo was used for that reason.
I had a T/C pistol at one time chambered in 223 but my xp-100's in 221 F.B. shot better.
Had 223 in Model 7 and also a Mini mark and mini 14 and in AR-15 custom. Nothing there to excite me and last time i owned any.
I'd rather shoot 221 f.b. or 17 centerfires for hunting purposes.
Posted by Semp (Member # 3074) on April 06, 2025, 02:41 AM:
To add a little to the discussion, you can fire both .223 and 5.56 in a rifle chambered for .223 Wylde. It will safely handle both cartridges.
Oddly, while the military 5.56 is higher pressured than .223, the same relationship doesn't hold true for the .308. The .308 is higher pressured at 62,000 psi than the military 7.62x51 at 50,000 psi. So a .308 rifle can fire both .308 and 7.62x51 but a 7.62x51 chambered rifle should not fire a .308. There are exceptions but that is the basic rule.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 06, 2025, 07:15 PM:
Okay, thanks.
I have a Colt AR15, I only shoot pick up range brass in it. I have my own determination of operating pressures. I’m well able to read pressure signs and know when to back off.
I also have a Model 700 chambered in 223Ackley Improved. It has Lapua 223 brass and fireformed. Again, I read my own pressure signs. I was a little disappointed to only see more or less a 50fps improvement over 223Remington data, with heavy bullets 55 and 60 grain. Which is the only bullets I ever plan on shooting coyotes.
I don’t like runners.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 07, 2025, 07:13 AM:
You got your reasons for what weight you want to shoot but you also defeating the purpose of the ackey version as well. Less trimming but to also shoot a bullet at little faster speed. Anything past 52 gr. is overweight for that cartridge and thus the vel. suffers.
50 gr. and 52 gr. is where it shines, and you will see a increase of 200-250 fps. gain over a 223 round.
52 gr. bullets been used for over 25 years to kill coyotes and still a top bullet IMO.
I guess you like to back your loads off a little as well from what i read which is fine but if you going to do that then do it with a bigger cartridge, so you still have some energy left.
I hate reduced loads and would rather move down in a cartridge size than to download it and just load to what a manual says for max. safe load.
Back when i was just shooting fox the 223 was just too much cartridge for their thin skin and reduced load was out of the question. Next cartridge in line was the 221 F.B. shooting 42 and 52 gr, H.P. at 3000 fps or just little more with 42 gr.. Turned out the 42 gr. was best for fox and 52 gr. was better choice if i came up against a few coyotes out to 300 yards max.
17 Rem. came along and took care of my problem with both Predators and 17 Pred. just made it that much better.
For little, longer shots the 22-250 with 52. did the job and an improvement when i went to ackley version.
If i felt the need to go to a heavier bullet in 22-250 or ackley then i would of just jumped up to a 243 or ackley version shooting 58 gr. bullet.
Match cartridge to the size of critter you plan to shoot and at what distance on average.
Most max. loads in a Manual are safe loads and many are just under max. for given cartridge and why they a safe load to start with, but you have to find out in each rifle and with what powder, bullet you plan to use.
Sierra has load info for a 223 bolt as well as for the 223 AR, AR cannot handle same pressure as a bolt gun so be aware of that. Another reason why i don't like a short, barreled AR, you lose too much in Vel.
Edit to add; Over the years i seen coyotes shot with most everything from 300 winchester on down and it don't matter what bullet you use on a coyote if you don't hit the right spot its going to run, simple as that. Seen many coyotes shot in the guts put some miles on as well..
[ April 07, 2025, 07:21 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 07, 2025, 07:50 AM:
You have good reasons and I have good reasons. I used 52 grain match bullets for years in my 220 Swift, when night hunting.
Complicated, but then we were starting to get beat by teams that were hunting south. So, that’s presented some new conditions and requirements, suddenly with my new 22-250Ackley, I was getting blown up bullets at extreme velocities, around 4300-4400fps.
Then, because of my twist, I couldn’t stabilize 70-75 grain bullets, so I settled on 65 grain and found great bullet performance, frozen rope velocities and 1/2 inch groups. It was a combo defined from on high by god himself.
What I found, parsing data to a fair thee well, was that 52-53 grain bullets really lacked anchoring and killing power at these velocities. Well placed hits resulted in a lot of fussing animals, which distracts when you have pairs and multiples. Anyway, everybody has a theory, and a lot of them won’t work. Basically, if you find something that works, stick with it until it doesn’t.
That’s why I never saw the usefulness of the 17’s. The one we were using wasn’t mine, but we both used it at night, switching off shooters and light man. This was (I forget right now) either the Javalina or MkIV? That’s what happens when it’s not your gun, but it was just one season in which we decided it just didn’t kill good enough for our situation. End of experiment, and worth noting that this all happened when fur prices were trending upwards, but we were still hunting contests, and it’s difficult to reconcile those opposing conditions. I pretty much concluded that the 17, generally was a “boutique” chambering, and kinda impractical for our application. Also, I absolutely NEVER saw a contest hunter using any 17 chambering. That’s pretty conclusive.
I noted a couple of points I could argue but, WTF? Why bother?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 07, 2025, 09:21 AM:
"Basically, if you find something that works, stick with it until it doesn't."
THAT is a nugget that should be carved into stone. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 07, 2025, 01:58 PM:
You sort of right Koko.
I kept logbooks on everything I shot since 1985 I believe. Bullets tried, cartridges and how they performed on live game. (coyotes, red fox) Also I did all the skinning for the group at one time, each coyote marked as to who shot it and with what and how well his load or cartridge worked. It saved me a lot of time and money from buying different rifles with different chamberings to find out for myself.
I had all the numbers or averages you might say so I could figure out what was working and what wasn't.
Just an example would be my Rem. 788 in 22-250, every bullet weight and brand was tried from 40 gr. up to 60 gr. bullets. My choice was decided on what bullet had the best averages for one shot kills and what bullets to stay away from. Also found what bullet speed on avr. performed the best and came up with 3700 fps up to 4000 fps. Once I know what speed i needed for reliable kills made selecting a cartridge that much easier for what animal i was after. Keep in mind i was looking for bullet that also did less damage to the hide but destroyed the inside and stayed there. A through and through bullet is a waste of energy IMO.
The 17 Mach -4 is what i consider a fox cartridge and ok on coyotes at 100 yards or less on avrage., past 100 yards is where you get into trouble. I know my limits or cartridges limits, but others may not and thus take a shot anyway and then blame it on the cartridge for something it wasn't meant to do.
When i hunted I always had 2 or 3 rifles along in the truck, each had a purpose just like golfing.
Later on, when I had the 17 Pred. built i mostly just had that along and once in a while brought the 22-250 ackley with. My 17 Pred. had the best track record and why I kept using it.
I also use to set up a steel plate on the range and shoot it with varus cartridges to test penetration. What i looked for was a bullet strong enough and fast enough to bore a hole through the steel plate or leave the deepest crater.
I think it was R.Shaw that once said some guys go overboard on cartridge selection to make up for their poor shooting skills and believe he is right. Same applies with choice of action, bolt or semi auto.
[ April 07, 2025, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 07, 2025, 04:19 PM:
The heck of it is, I've seen this in aspects of archery and other things, is that the shit-hot set-up for one person might be only mediocre for someone else in the same application. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Some things just come down to Mojo & Confidence.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 07, 2025, 09:42 PM:
well not everyone holds a bow the exact same or has same straight back or calmness in the body as others . Big hand, small hands, short arms or long arms. Plus it might take years to get use to another's set up which was done for some reason to give confidence or make shoot better. More crap involved when shooting a bow vrs. a rifle, apples to oranges, i guess.
When i bow hunted i just used site pines and kisser button and carried arrows with two different weight of broad heads or a little stiffer shaft.
I used a Onieda screaming eagle bow, not everyone like them or could even shoot them well due to less let off pressure on string at full draw, many didn't have the strength or structure to use one. At the time it was made it was fastest shooting bow on market.
Back to rifles and one thing i noticed when i shot one of the bigger calibers is I held the rifle tighter when shooting and thus you start to get what i call wobble. Then when I switched to xp-100 pistols you held the pistol as little as possible and thus accuracy stepped up. Got into the postal BR matches and gunsmith showed me how they shoot their rifles from the bench with butt of stock just touching your shoulder and a very light hold if any with trigger hand and then just squeeze a round off. Less recoil the better I shoot. LOL
[ April 07, 2025, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 08, 2025, 02:53 AM:
Onieda Screaming Eagle. Now, there's a blast from the past. My wife & I each had one a long time ago. She liked her's and killed a deer in Utah with it. I could never get mine to shoot a clean flying arrow. Sold it and went with a TSS Quadraflex at 92 pounds shooting 2219s that I increased the spine on. Don't know what the FPS was but they were really fast and hit really hard. I was shooting Copperhead Magnum broadheads back then. A truly evil head that tore huge holes into deer. Memories. I was even shooting pins back then. 20-40-60, a dot on the pin guard for 80 and point on at 100. Killed a goat on Catalina Island on a bet by shooting a Judo Blunt thru it's lungs.
Good times. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 08, 2025, 03:03 AM:
I just Googled up Black Copperhead Magnum broadhead and was surprised to see that a totally different broadhead is now using that name. The ones that I was using had barbs facing forward, pulled flesh in and cut huge holes.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 08, 2025, 07:33 AM:
Getting back to a comment made by TA, sort of discounting bullets that pass through a coyote, and sounding as if it’s a negative. At least as I interpreted it.
My 22-250 Ackley has always used 65 grain HP’s, From Berger and then from Starke. Velocities are right at 3925fps. And on most side presentations, it’s a bang flop and a pass through, no runners, no fussing around. Just clean kills, hydrostatic shock/bak flop.
So, I don’t see any negative? Little to no fur damage and clean no worry kills I found something that worked and have stuck with it. That’s all I have to say about it.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS about the archery craze. I have always heard it lasts for about 5 years and fades away? Here we have a member that found his hobby and is content. That’s wonderful, I’d say. But, then we hear the accumulation of the tackle and discards and the oldie but goodies; by the dozen! Pretty soon you need to add a room on the house to store guitars and/or bows! Oh well, keeps him out of the Honky Tonks! Bless your heart!
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 08, 2025, 08:02 AM:
I’m with Leonard. I like more bullet with my .22-250 AI too. I have shot the 60 grain Bergers for the last 15 years or so. They have been a great bullet for both killing power and pretty minimal fur damage. Luckily I bought a bunch of them years ago. When I first rebarreled it (Remington 700) it was a 26” Shillen 1/12 twist. The 60’s were running a little over 3800 fps. I cut the barrel to 22” when I bought my suppressor and lost alittle over 100 fps. So it’s running really close to 3700 fps. I haven’t noticed ANY difference in killing power. But I really do love the 60’s.
Also side note. My safe doesn’t have a .223 of any kind in it and never will….
[ April 08, 2025, 08:05 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 08, 2025, 08:03 AM:
I was once told that we live in 1900 square foot homes with 900 square foot workshops when what we REALLY need is a 1900 square foot workshop with a 900 square foot house somewhere in back.
That man was wise.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 08, 2025, 08:06 AM:
To Leonards' original question on case dimensions, the. 223 and 5.56 are exactly the same size.
Difference is in loading and pressure limits.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 08, 2025, 11:27 AM:
Koko I had a book back then that showed how to tune the Screaming Eagle, and I also used a arrow rest that was kind of like flat piece of steel with a spring and it sort of like a flipper (up and down) and then had two guide wire type springs for each side of the arrow for support. I would hang up one sheet of newspaper and shoot through it and then look at how the arrow passed through and then make a correction. The goal was to have the arrow pass straight through with small hole and a straight cut with blades. I think I used Rocky Mountain broad heads in two different weights. at time was one of the strongest broad heads and designed to cut bone and penetrate. I killed around dozen deer with mine.
Only reason I took up a bow was so I could hunt deer if my work schedule didn't allow me to be home for shot gun slug season.
I hunted deer with a slug gun, rifle, Muzzle loader and also with Bow as season dates were different so I could make one of them due to work.
Bullets; when hunting big game, you wanted a solid bullet that could break bone and cut through flesh and deliver some sort of shock.
As for fox and coyotes you want a bullet that will dump all its energy on inside and have the bullet stay there if any of it was left. A bullet that hits so fucken hard that it puts the animal into shock even with a marginal hit and then it just lays there for you to walk up and finish with a pistol or a body slam.
A pass-through bullet is not dumping all of its energy inside a animal and you just hope shot was good and hit some vitals before it went out.
At one time I tried using FMJ as the claim was less fur damage. Actually, was just opposite as you had pass throughs with two holes to sew up and crippled coyotes as well. Why?? The FMJ did not dump enough energy inside, so you had to hope you got both lungs and some bone before it passed through. A bullet that expands and shatters inside a animal is dumping all of its energy right there on inside, be like a bomb going off.
After the shot the first good sign of a bullet dumping its energy is when the coyotes' front legs stiffen up and it just tips right over, that my friends is shock. Yeah, you will see same thing from time to time on a pass through as well if you do your part.
After i skinned my coyotes, I would then try to dig the bullet out and see how much of it was left. All i found was little pieces of the copper jacket and have a pill bottle full of the little pieces. But hey a guy wants pass throughs that fine with me and glad everyone happy about it but its something I don't want even on a worthless coyote.
I used a 22 mag. for a short time on red fox, sometimes a one shot kills and other times it took one more shot to finish them. I go and dig the bullets out and they were still in one piece with nose of bullet deformed just a little. This tells me the 22 mag. does not have enough energy for the bullet to do its job properly. I learned from that and stopped using the 22 mag. on fox and use it now just for coon.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 08, 2025, 12:14 PM:
Yeah, I paper tune and bare shaft tune with elect. tape wrap to replace the weight of the removed fletch. I think that the bow had a tiller problem.
It's long gone. Now nothing but retro recurves.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 08, 2025, 02:42 PM:
Kind of like stick shooting sticks!
Here is another thought. If the 60-65 gr. bullets doing so well why stop there? Why not jump up to 75, 77, and 80 grainers??
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 08, 2025, 04:53 PM:
For me it’s about balance of weight of bullet and speed for the Cartridge I’m shooting.
If I’m shooting my 17 Ackley Hornet I like 20 grain bullets at 3600-3700 fps.
If it’s .17 Remington,.17 Tactical,.17 Predator it’s 25-30 grain bullets at 3900-4100 fps.
.204 Ruger would be 35-39 grain bullets running 3700-3900 fps. .
.222, and .223 I would probably run 50-55 grain bullets at 3200-3400 fps.
For .220 Swift, .22-250,.22-250 Ackley would be 55-65grain bullets at 3600-3900 fps
And 6mm/.243 70-90 grain bullets at 3300-3500 fps, And so on.
Just my 2 cents
Good Hunting Chad
[ April 08, 2025, 05:59 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on April 08, 2025, 06:00 PM:
In my experience, 55 grain Nosler for the Ackley. But you have to push them around 3900 fps or better in order to get the desired effect on coyotes.
Same bullet around 3650 does not do the job I am looking for. I had to begin using the 53 gr. Vmax when I went from 26 inch barrel to 20. Still not super satisfied with it to be honest. I shot a lot of years holding on fur to 300 and now having to hold high takes some getting used to. Not to mention the performance is a little sucky. Next year, I may have to go back to a telephone slung over my back. LOL
I like exits.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 08, 2025, 06:16 PM:
I have to agree with that. When I was shooting 60 grain Bergers with my 26” barrel at 3800+ fps I really loved the way they put coyotes down and it was a very flat shooter. Now at 3650+ fps it’s not quite the same. I think if I dropped down to the 55’s I might be able to get to 3800 fps again but I really like how the 60’s shoot.
[ April 08, 2025, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 08, 2025, 08:16 PM:
quote:
For me it’s about balance of weight of bullet and speed for the Cartridge I’m shooting.
If I’m shooting my 17 Ackley Hornet I like 20 grain bullets at 3600-3700 fps.
If it’s .17 Remington,.17 Tactical,.17 Predator it’s 25-30 grain bullets at 3900-4100 fps.
.204 Ruger would be 35-39 grain bullets running 3700-3900 fps. .
.222, and .223 I would probably run 50-55 grain bullets at 3200-3400 fps.
For .220 Swift, .22-250,.22-250 Ackley would be 55-65grain bullets at 3600-3900 fps
And 6mm/.243 70-90 grain bullets at 3300-3500 fps, And so on.
Just my 2 cents
Yeah Chad that makes sense except for 22-250 ackley and 243. Around here the 58gr. does pretty good job in the 243 along with little more speed. And you look at bullet range for 22-250 which runs from 40 up to 60 with the 52 falling close to the middle and has been bullet of choice for many years. But what ever.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 08, 2025, 08:33 PM:
52. gr. Bergers and 52 gr. sierra are tack drivers but you best check see how they group past 300 yards.
been shooting the 52 gr. Bergers in the 22-250 Bargara and like them when you can find em.
The 52 gr. Hornady (A-max-Elc) are tack drivers in the 22-250 ackley and group well past 300 yards and it has a plastic tip but thicker jacket and bullet seldom comes out of a shot coyote.
Nephew bought a 224 Valkrie and then tossed the factory barrel and went custom and started out with like a 70-77 gr. bullet and now he is down to shooting the 52 gr. ELC in it. He only shot a few coyotes so far so can't really say if its ok or not. I do know the heavy bullets he used went through and through and left dam mess, perhaps tumbling all way through. You could see the hits with that heavy bullet through his thermal wasn't pretty.
I sent a few thermal vid.s to R. Shaw and he has seen what my load will do so far.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2025, 09:22 AM:
I did mention before that my rifling twist 1 in 12 would not stabilize 70 grain bullets, but 65 grain has great accuracy and I generally get pass throughs. It has killed fine for years but the advantage is for the longer shots 250 to 300. That’s a different kettle of fish because the coyote will be facing you rather than broadside, but still kills very well.
Everybody has it figured out and the other guy is only kidding himself. The thing about that is whatever floats your boat, yeah stick with it.
I will mention that while we discuss the various caliber bullet performance and talk about bullet weight and muzzle velocity….the Dude with the 243 really does have it figured out. I could make a small error on leading a running coyote and hit him in the hams and with the right bullet, they still die bang/flop with a 6mm or 243.
Everybody has a plan so don’t confuse him with data. Right?
Good hunting. El Bee
Edit: what I really mean is that arguing over ballistics is a sure fire way to get the conversation moving! lol
[ April 09, 2025, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 09, 2025, 09:38 AM:
6mm/243...."die, bang flop".
I don't know, I've seen my share of hits with those cannons, and the coyote still beat feet.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 09, 2025, 10:05 AM:
Yes Vic. I agree..
Sorry but disagree on the 243 bang flops on marginal hits. Bad hit is just that bad hit.
I think if i just wanted to kill them and nothing else i'd probably use a 25-06.
Back when i group hunted you had all kinds of shooting situations. Coyotes still laying in their bed when shot, coyotes just standing broad side or head on, or running from side to side at varus distances, coyotes running straight into a hidden shooter or running straight away.
Most situations made hitting the mark a little more difficult and thus a second or third shot needed to be followed up. 17 Rem all way up to 243 ackley were used and the worst coyotes to try skin was ones shot more than once by a 243 or the 223 with a 204 coming in third, but if you used the right bullet in the 204 to start with then it did a nice job. I hated trying to sew up a 40.00 coyote just so I could get 20.00 for it.
When i would sell the group furs some bitched cause they thought they should of gotten more for theirs or just as much. So one year I marked all the hides as to who shot what and had one of the guys rides to fur buyer with me so he could see first-hand how furs are graded.
That opened up his eyes so now all we had to do was fix the problem and got him to use a 58. gr. V-max in his 243 win., still ended up with few shot twice but alot less damage if any and his shooting improved since he was shooting a little faster bullet.
Another guy shooting a 223 switched over to a 204 and he started to get more kills cause his 204 was shooting faster and flatter than the 223 so less guess on hold over or lead. Anyway, I seen it all as far as what works and don't work and what is just so so or just lucky. But hey if something else works thats good as well.
[ April 09, 2025, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2025, 12:08 PM:
Hate to agree with TA but that’s exactly what I always used in Nevada, where some weekends, all kills were at least 250 yards and you need that 100 grainer. I started with my long range gun in Nevada and for 15 years, it was a 220Swift. Then I switched to 25’06Ackley. Right now, I have a 243Ackley but I haven’t killed anything with it, so your cautions are unfortunately a bit late.
But, as far as quarreling about killing efficiency of the 243Winchester or the 6mmRem., there will always be quirky results. But, are we saying that the 243 ain’t no good, it just cripples coyotes? Come on, man! In my experience, I’ve seen a hell of a lot of dead animals killed with a 243, and I have no experience with a bunch of runners, using that cartridge? In fact, I never had many runners, with any cartridge except when I tried using an AR15 on coyotes. But I’m a quick learner.
Don’tcha just love arguing calibers!
Good hunting. El Bee
Edit: Caveats: I have not used my 243 a lot, it’s more or less a loaner. But I have used it with 70 grain HP it hasn’t probably had 200 rounds through the barrel. I do remember a couple bad hits on running coyotes and it killed them dead. Impressively dead. I won’t bet the farm, but I’ve seen some bang flops and that’s all I have to go by. If you guys think it’s only good for cripples, I have not seen that. Now, my 6mm is basically the same thing, right? In Africa, I killed a Kudu and a Wildebeast with my 6mm. One shot. But now you say, it will cripple coyotes, right?
[ April 09, 2025, 12:26 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 09, 2025, 02:19 PM:
I think we can all agree its on where to put the first bullet.
If a coyote just walks in and stands at 100 yards and the gun is zeroed in a dam 223 can kill em but we don't always get that perfect shot or exact 100 yards every time and that's when you have a problem.
Standing game vrs. running game is a whole another game and thoughts need to be put into what gun and cal., bullet you plan to use.
I said this before, but I saw a coyote shot like 6 times by a 300 mag. before it finally laid down and had to be finished with a pistol. The shooter was a nervous wreck and not much of a shooter to begin with. coyote was a mess and not one bullet hit the vitals.
Nephew was out other night and shot a coyote with his Valkrie using 52 gr. A-max. and said bullet wasn't worth a shit. I had him send me his vid. from his thermal and i saw in the vid. he shot dam coyote in the guts. so not bullets fault.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 09, 2025, 03:43 PM:
Say what you will but if I had to have a coyote dead with pelt damage not an issue. From 0-500 yards I would grab my 6mm Remington shooting 80 grain Bergers at 3400 fps Everytime!!!!!
And that’s from someone who shoots a .22-250 AI 90% of the time.
Good Hunting Chad
[ April 09, 2025, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 09, 2025, 04:03 PM:
Just to blast them a 22 or 6mm STW gets my vote. (8mm mag. necked down to 22 or 6mm)
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 09, 2025, 05:42 PM:
🙄
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2025, 07:41 PM:
Ditto, Chad!
And yes, from the first coyote I saw, in the flesh, I have had my Model 600 6mmRemington, ((it doesn’t look much like what came from the factory, but that’s what it is, a Model 600) just look at the dogleg bolt handle!….
and I have used a shitpot full of 85gr Sierra’s in that gun. I have a son and 2 grandson’s that will be fighting over that rifle when I’m gone! It’s the answer to those questions we sometimes hear about: What’s the last rifle you will ever get rid of , like if you were broke?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 09, 2025, 08:16 PM:
Some gun writer had a 22 STW built (Rick Jamison)to beat the bullet speed record or something like that.
Then a guy I met in S.D. had one built just for coyotes and used a 52 or 55 gr. bullet going at 4300 fps-4500 fps. The cartridge was as fast and flat as they come, and bad thing was there was not much left of a solid hit coyote after the smoke and fur cleared. His plan was to keep using it till barrel burned out.
My 20x47 Lapua is kind of in the same boat as far as damage on coyote goes, pretty destructive and don't have a big choice for bullets right now. Maybe just use what I got and back off on load a little of 4300 fps.
From what I've seen I think the avr. vel. for coyote cartridge should be from 3800- 4100 fps for best kill shots.
I'm going to try get 20x47 back in action come next season as well as my 17 Pred. both been sitting to long..
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 10, 2025, 06:29 AM:
Leonard, love those models (600,660) when my dad passed away I inherited some of his rifles. He left me a Remington 722 in .244 Remington (6mm) 1/12 twist, a Remington 660 in 6mm Remington 1/9 twist, a Remington 600 in .222 Remington and a Remington 700 Classic in .350 Remington Magnum. Just to name a few. All very nice rifles…..
[ April 10, 2025, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 10, 2025, 09:23 AM:
Yes, Chad. I really like those rifles. I had a Model 660 in 6mmRem but it was stolen same time as I lost a 25’06AI and my Combat Commander Colt 45ACP. The 45 was returned to me ten years later. The others, never heard from again. I also have a Charter Arms 38spl in the National Data base for at least 25 years or so. The city police detective told me at the time of the burglary that most firearms seem to wind up in Mexico. The 45 was retrieved from a Mexican male by the City of National City, CA. That city is right on the border but this guy was beating a woman in a domestic deal. And, it’s always kind of pissed me off that I didn’t get the magazine with it, the original Colt Mag.
Anyway
Good Hunting El Bee
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 10, 2025, 10:40 AM:
I got same thing but in XP-100 single shot, stiffer action and had the bolt sleeved on mine and the lug pinned.
[ April 10, 2025, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 10, 2025, 11:28 AM:
Oh I forgot to mention something about primers used and load work up ect. Chronograph"
Run your loads through a Chrono and change nothing but the primer, it will tell you which is better for your application and about the load as well weather its right or not.
I have not done load testing in long time as I know now what I need to use. But hey if you happen to have a chrony go check your best loads out and see what comes up for numbers as far as vel. avr. and what deviation is. Smaller the number the better the load.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 10, 2025, 01:42 PM:
Here is an example on varus primers.
17 rem. 25 gr. Hornady h.p. and only change in the load of N-135 22.5 was brand of primers with everything else being same and shot on same day.
Fed. match 3806 fps. Var. 117
cci BR-4 3836 fps. Var. .84
cci 450 3833 fps. Var. .56
W-W 3819 fps. Var. .56
Rem 7 1/2 3791 fps. Var. .126
The groups were not too bad except I had flyers with two primer brands, the 7 1/2 and fed. match, the groups were not round.
Next you can take that load and pick out two best primers and then work that load up in charge wt. and then go onto bullet seating depth. If you don't get the low numbers like you want, then change powders like one with closest burn rate to what you started with. Usually, I just start with a few powders and then pick out best two and then fine tune loads from there. Keep in mind most any load listed in a manual will shoot really good below max. But if you want all the speed, you can get then get them worked up close to max. and go from there.
Also try to match the powder burn rate to weight of bullet you plan to use for given cartridge. Faster powder will give good accuracy with a lighter bullet listed for that cartridge but may lack in Max. vel.. Slower powder can give better accuracy with a heavier bullet as well so I try to find a happy medium burn rate for a powder for size of cartridge I plan to load for.
Example a 221 F.B. H-322 and H-335 is two powders i use in it. I use H-322 for 50 gr. or lighter and use H-335 for 52 gr. and heavier. Best accuracy and vel. this way.
[ April 10, 2025, 01:47 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 10, 2025, 02:05 PM:
When I was testing primers years ago I found that both the CCI br2’s and br4’s were best in my rifles in consistency, accuracy, and velocity so that’s all I’ve bought ever since.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 10, 2025, 02:14 PM:
Yep agree. I use them as well. but also depends on what cartridge and powder i use with some. I just look how the groups are with a given primer powder comb. and go from there as well.
[ April 10, 2025, 02:16 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 10, 2025, 04:26 PM:
As far as primers, I really have not used anything except Federal 210 Match for at least 3 decades. When primers were really scarce a couple years ago, even though I still had 5,000 of the 210Match on hand, I panicked and bought 5,000 REmington 9 1/2 primers. For some reason, I have always used the Remington primers in my 6mm. I do very little small rifle primers. Generally, I don’t sweat primers. That’s another case of stick with what works.
I use Winchester primers in my 300WM. Large rifle, it’s a hot primer with IMR 4831. That’s a load I have not changed for more than 30 years, but the barrel isn’t threaded at the muzzle. Tough shit! It’s a beautiful rig, really classy; why change what works!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 10, 2025, 07:49 PM:
Yeah i agree for 100 yard shots don't change a thing. But then again why go anything custom and just buy factory all the way around and toss the brass. Heck you can even buy Savages for same price as a custom barrel, use it for a season and trade in on a new one come next season.
I had a few Savages, shot them for a while then gave them to nephews.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 11, 2025, 10:01 AM:
A generous man, you are. So far, I have not had the urge to give away guns. But all mine are ot even with threaded barrels, nephews whould scorn them.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 11, 2025, 12:08 PM:
Getting them threaded is a piece of cake.😉 I have 5 barrels threaded for a Suppressor and the guy who did it gave me caps with each barrel, and when the caps are on you can’t even tell they are threaded. They are even crowned at the end. I plan on doing 5 more of my guns.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 11, 2025, 01:18 PM:
Leonard its been a family tradition for very long time that's been passed down.
My great grandfather, my grandfather and then my father. And now me have passed guns down to my nephews and two brother in-laws. It helps keep shooting and hunting traditions alive.
I even have two sisters that like to shoot sporting clays. One of my nephews is learning to call coyotes and now does his own reloading and builds a few rifles as well.
When i returned home from military my father gave me a Rem. 788 in 22-250, its on its second barrel and i still have it. Grandfather gave me a German single shot 22 target rifle with a cobra carved in the stock plus a few other rifles. Some i have yet and some have been passed on to others in family.
[ April 11, 2025, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 12, 2025, 02:51 PM:
That’s wonderful, Legendary Tim! Really good to know!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on April 12, 2025, 04:38 PM:
Actually ....... It's smart. When you give a rifle away you get happy feelings and an empty spot in the gun cabinet.
And we all know what to do with an empty spot in the gun cabinet !!!!
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 12, 2025, 08:58 PM:
I've begun the process of gifting away the arsenal. Figured better to do it while I'm living rather than them picking thru the safe when I'm room temperature.
The few I still have suit me fine, with every category covered. Strangely, I've run out of desire for anything? I've mentioned before, I've been blessed to have played with any firearm I've had an interest in, and many more that by happenstance or trade passed thru my hands.
Happy now to simply try to remain proficient with what I have. Been a fun ride but no longer have the desire to acquire any more
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 13, 2025, 03:34 AM:
Always room here for a 17 cal. or .224 wildcat. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I got bored so i'm going through the Sierra reloading manual looking for next build if i decide.
I started looking closely at Ft. pounds of energy as well as vel. from one cartridge to the next.
First off, I found that going to heavier bullet is not automatically better and can have opposite
affect.
You can gain on some heavies, but you need to look at the bullet used and its weight not all are equal.
Also there are many cartridges for certain caliber you may gain little more vel. over another but you don't gain any ft. pounds of energy, if you do you just splitting hairs with most.
Examples:
22-250 ackley
50 gr. at 3900 fps. with 1688 ft. lbs.
52&55 at 3800 fps. 1667 ft. lbs.
60 gr. at 3600 fps. with 1726 ft. lbs.
65 gr. at 3300 fps. 1571 ft. lbs.
243 win. 60 gr. at 3800 fps. 1923 ft. lbs.
6x47 Lapua 60 gr. at 3800 fps. 1923 ft. lbs.
6mm creedmoor with 60 gr. at 3800 fps. 1223 ft. lbs.
Keep in mind the ft. pounds can go up with a lighter/faster bullet or perhaps go up in bullet weight but not a guarantee.
A 22-6mm rem. would be a good choice for a fast flat shooter and the 6x47 Lapua in 6mm.
I also looked at some of the newer cartridges but not much of a gain if any if used in a bolt gun but some would be good choice if using a AR plate-form.
Some of the long-range heavy bullets may give you good accuracy at long range but do suffer in energy which has to also be considered.
A bullet that meets little resistance and passes through a animal is not dumping any of its energy, its just wasted energy. But if a bullet blows a hole size of a baseball its creating shock or if the bullet blows apart in inside thats also shock.
A coyote shot in guts and falls down is from energy, if it gets back up then the bullet lacked shock which is created by hitting muscle or organs.
[ April 13, 2025, 03:55 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 13, 2025, 07:51 AM:
One thing I noticed in the above post is the mention of a 22-250Ackley with a 50 grain bullet @ 3900fps.
I am not in favor of using 50 grain bullets in that cartridge, If you want to use 50 grain bullets, you can get that speed from a smaller capacity case, maybe even the 223Improved can drive a 50 grain bullet close to 3900fps. But, I have a 223AI and I never loaded 50 grain bullets, I used 55 grain, which is the smarter choice. Save the 50 grain bullets for ground squirrels, but I think loading 50 grain bullets in a 22-250AI is rather silly.
You have to use a little logic!
El Bee
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 13, 2025, 11:09 AM:
Yeah Leonard, that was just a sample of varis weights and amount of energy they produce.
But the 50 gr. would be a good choice if I was shooting at 200 yards or less all day long and if they don't splash. One other problem is the lighter bullets tend to get too short in length and don't fly well after 200 yards.
An example is a 52 gr. Sierra h.p. boat tail match bullet. At 100-200 yards very accurate but after 300 yards they tend to open up pretty good as far as group goes and at times all over the place. I still use this bullet from time to time but have to limit my shots.
The 52 gr. Hornady ELD has tougher jacket and is a little longer in length and good out to 500 yards and perhaps more but I never bothered to check it out past 500 yards.
Same problem with a 6mm 55 gr., bullet is too short for longer distance shooting.
In 17 center fire the 25 gr. not too bad but 30 gr. is a better choice and stay away from the 20 gr.
If i had a old rifle with a 223 bolt face and wanted to re-barrel it, then a 223 imp would be on the list along with a 204 ruger. 204 would probably win.
[ April 13, 2025, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 13, 2025, 12:16 PM:
I already told you that I rechambered a Model 700 in 223Remington, bought new, and before firing a shot, I rechambered it in Ackley Improved. I got about 50fps over published data for the stock 223Remington. So, hardly worth the effort, except much better case life, but with those cases being plentiful, the whole effort is kinda questionable, considering the $400 price of the gunsmith work.
I’m just kinda sold on the Ackley 40 degree shoulder concept, there are very few negatives, and yet the only popular cartridges are primarily the 280Ackley and the 22-250 which is just as worthy but it’s not factory offered, yet.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 13, 2025, 02:11 PM:
Yeah i know about your build, but i be looking at a different bullet or double check load if all you got was 50 fps. increase. Just saying..........
Maybe look at powder choice as well. I don't know..
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 13, 2025, 03:58 PM:
You do realize that some barrels are just slower than others. Equal length different makers. I have only used Hart barrels and Shilen.
There could be maybe 100/200fps difference between identical barrels from the same manufacturer. Same load.
I have two 22-250Ackley’s, one a Hart and the other is a Shilen. The Shilen is 2 inches shorter and my load is a 60 grain Berger. I only get 3750fps. The Hart barrel pushes a 65grain Starke @3925. That’s a tame load, no flattened primers, no pressure signs at all and I get ten loadings per case, never trim necks.
It’s difficult to try and compare different barrels but some just don’t get the velocity. You can’t demand or have expectations, what would you expect me to do sue the gunsmith because this factory barrel only gets 50fps more than max published loads for a stock 223? Maybe I should sue? Don’t be ridiculous!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 13, 2025, 04:22 PM:
I’ve never been impressed with the .223 Remington on coyotes had to many runners for my taste regardless of the bullet I used.
I did eventually upgrade to .223 Ackley improved. I did notice an improvement but not enough to justify hanging up the .22-250.
My .22-250 barrel was toast so I thought I could get very close to its ballistics with the 223AI. Never happened so I sold it and rebarreled my .22-250 to the Ackley version.Best decision I ever made, mostly on Leonard’s advice.
Now the .204 Ruger is a different deal altogether. I have shot and killed coyotes with that cartridge very consistently.
I know it shouldn’t kill like it does but I have shot coyotes with it just as if I were using my standard .22-250. And the bullets are light. My favorites are 35 grain Berger at 3800 fps and the 39 grain Sierra blitzking at 3700 fps and that’s with a 20” barrel.Kills coyotes very well out to 300 yards.
Good Hunting Chad
[ April 13, 2025, 04:27 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 13, 2025, 04:27 PM:
sure, maybe you got a sleeper, i don't know.
I've used many different brands of barrels as well and have not come across a sleeper but i also don't have any short or chopped barrels.
But with your 223 shooting a 55 gr. bullet is like putting a small engine in a big car for it to push or trying to make a little dog into a big dog.
Thats one of the things with some of the new cartridges they trying to push too much bullet and i feel is a waste of time/money, trying to make a little dog into a big dog again. LOL What do they gain other than not having to turn the dial as much??
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 13, 2025, 04:36 PM:
Chad many of my die-hard friends shoot a 204 and with same two bullets you mentioned and also have great results.
I'm just shooting factory crap in mine till i get enough brass then i'll be switching over to same bullets. I also have some 40 and 45 gr. 20 cal. bullets but saving them for the 20x47 Lapua.
Using the 40 and 45 gr. bullets just too slow for the 204 to shine.
I think you got pretty good handle on things.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 13, 2025, 04:39 PM:
Leonard what powder are you using in that 223 imp. sleeper???
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 13, 2025, 05:35 PM:
52gr. Hornady HP 28gr. Varget
40gr. V Max 29.5gr. H335
That’s all I have right now. I only have 50 cases each.I fireformed 100 cases, that’s all I got. I don’t use that gun on coyotes any more, those are squirrel loads, and I can’t find velocity notes?
Good hunting. El Bee
[ April 13, 2025, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 13, 2025, 07:21 PM:
When I was shooting my .223 Ackley Improved I too was using H335. Shot 50 grain Nosler ballistic tips, and 52 grain Bergers at around 3400 fps if I remember right. Where almost all of my standard .22-250 loads were with 55 grain Bergers, 55 grain Sierra game kings, or 55 grain Nosler ballistic tips all running close to 3700 fps with my 24” barrel…..
When I first rebarreled my .22-250 Ackley Improved, I tried some 55 grain Bergers and they were running just shy of 3950 fps with a 26” barrel and RL-15 powder.
But I had better results with both accuracy and killing power with the 60 grain Bergers running 3800 fps. Now it shoots those same bullets at almost 3700 fps with a 22” barrel, accuracy and killing power haven’t changed.
Good Hunting Chad
[ April 13, 2025, 07:23 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 13, 2025, 11:24 PM:
Leonard from what i see your loads are pretty good and safe.
The 52 gr. hornady is a flat base bullet though so there might be little more drag to it verses a B.T. and ogive is a little different from B.T bullets as well. I tried the 52 & 53 gr. Hornadys years ago for fox hunting with 22-250 and never liked those bullets. I still have some laying around I might give them a try and see what develops as they shot pretty good but there was some reason why I didn't use them, just dont remember why.
In Sierra manual the only loads that use H-335 are 50 gr. bullets or less, I usually try to stay away from a limited powder and find one more versatile. Might be a pressure spike using that powder and why its not used much.
Pressure spikes I see with a certain powder for most any cartridge always seems to be one or two powders that's not very stable, but manuals list them anyway.
Also according to manual, you should see about 200 fps increase when going to a ackley.
Also in some loads you will see just one or two powders that will give you a little extra vel. I like to use these and then back off to next load down, so i know its safe no matter what time of year im hunting, you do that with other powders then you drop too much in vel.
Smaller cases like a 223 also seem to be a little sensitive when close to max. where a cartridge like 22-250 you can get away with being a tadd low or high in charge as they not that sensitive. You can get by with a powder dispenser and be few kernels off and it won't make a difference but in a 223-size case it can be trouble, so I weigh each load for smaller cases.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 15, 2025, 10:03 AM:
That’s a habit I have never been able to lose, I weigh all rifle charges. That’s something I do because my partner was pretty sloppy about the routine and yet his rifles shot accurately. So, I don’t know what to make of that? But, I have to know that I did what I could contribute to the finest accuracy me and my equipment could produce. I’m a pretty good shot on game, pull off some impressive now and then.
I’ve always considered coyote hunters to be among the best marksmen, across the board. I avoid going to a public range anywhere close to opening day of deer season. I’ve seen them show up with 3 or 4 partial boxes of ammo, not all the same bullet weight, and they try to balance out what’s left by sighting in different brands using some kind of logic whereby they only need to make the first round count anyway. So, don’t ask me to explain it! Some of them don’t bother with range day, at all. So, I think deer hunters are the most casual shooters and the least accomplished.
I guess I have to give credit to those that pursue ground squirrels and various ‘chucks. I listened to this guy one time telling me about the time he killed 700 critters in a morning.
(edit: I forgot to ask him how many he missed?)
Waterfowl hunters, not so much. It seems like it’s only predator hunters that argue all of it! Bullets, rifles, scopes and calls and sounds, ad infinitum! Yeah, I’m looking at you, Tim!
Good hunting. El Bee
[ April 15, 2025, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on April 15, 2025, 11:57 AM:
Had a old guy here that hunted with me and he had a 223 and he would buy loaded ammo in bulk zip-lock bags from someplace. one load was a H.P and another a soft point or ballistic tip and once in a while he comes up with some fmj ammo. He always struggled to get his scope zeroed in and had someone else do it for him and then one day he asked me to do it.
So he hands me a bag of soft point ammo and i get it sighted in and then he says here site this other ammo in as well. All i did was test it to see where it would hit and found it wasn't the same as the other so he just needed to stay with one type and then resight when he ready to use other stuff. Well he never bothered to re check zero with other ammo and just used it. Every now and then he would tell me he was shooting red fox in the eye and killing them every time.
Yeah ok I'd say. LOL His rifle was not even a tack driver with his choice of ammo. The guy was dam good with a shotty though and give credit for that.
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