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Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on December 15, 2015, 06:02 AM:
Ok guys here is were I am at. I need a rifle that will be used primarily for fur but will serve as a back up denning rifle. I am at a cross roads. The rifle will be built on a current Tikka T3 in 22-250. It will have a 20" barrel because of a suppressor. Cartridge is between a 22-250 AI to shoot either 62 TTSX or 65 Sierra or a 6 XC or .243 shooting Barnes 80 TTSX or 85 Partitions. Either rifle will have a 1-8 twist barrel. Ranges from 0 to 600. I want two holes and don't want to care about angles. Which would you build?
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 15, 2015, 06:23 AM:
I get the idea of the 22-250 AI. Its a souped up hot rod. I shoot a 22x47 Lapua with 60 grain Bergers. It's very similar. What I am confused about is the 6xc. Basically a slowed down .243. I'd rather have the .243 or .243 AI.
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on December 15, 2015, 07:08 AM:
Cal,
I had hoped you would reply we are in similar positions only you more so. Hows that 60 Berger on fur?
The 6 XC I have shot for several years and can be run pretty hard. I have only gave up 100-150 fps. to a .243 with the same bullet weight in the past. No preference between the two. Is the 22x47 used for both fur and denning? I am building a .260 for my primary denning rifle. Seems to always be windy then and looking for a good bc/ bullet weight combo.
Coyotes are pretty thick this year. Made my first outing this last weekend and called 10 in the first two stands. Killed 5 with the dog. Was running a 22-250 with 55 NBT. Not happy with that bullet loading up some Sierra 55 SBT. This one is a 14 twist.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2015, 10:24 AM:
So, Cal. I guess you ran out of the 62 Bergers? Chad in Utah has been using the 60 Berger. How do you rate the two bullets?
My volume is nowhere near your's so I still have a few hundred 62's and same amount of 60's, which I have never loaded. This is for my 22-243Middlested, which is almost identical to a straight 22-243Ackley, with a little better geometry and about a grain more capacity.
Brent. I know 5 or 6 people that shoot the 22-250AI with the 55 Nosler BT. They seem to love them? Is your concern accuracy or terminal performance? So, the chambering is a stock 22-250Remington? That could possibly be the difference because the Ackley is good for maybe +300fps in a long barrel.
The Sierra is not going to be a fur bullet, you know that?
I don't know anything about 260Remington but I know it is able to handle heavier bullets than a 243, and
with much better BC.
I'm not real sure and not current, but once upon a time Cal was restricted from recovering fur, so his mission was/is control and denning. And, besides, Brent. If you want two holes in a coyote, kinda seems like the Nosler will do that, without excessive expansion?
That's what I get from the 65 Starke HP, (what I have left) at over 3900fps, I get pass throughs with excellent hydrostatic shock. I use that bullet in 22-250AI.
With bullets, you just never know? I mean, (you know) "the plan". If it doesn't do what you hoped, it's time to look at PLAN B.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on December 15, 2015, 11:45 AM:
Lenard,
The rifle currently is a 22-250 22" barrel but at some point will be rebarreled and then will be either a 22-250 AI or .243. I shot 5 coyotes with the 55 NBT and all had major entrance holes, accuracy was good with them. No exits. Feel like I will give the #1365 sierras a try they can't do any worse. Looking for a 50 cent pc. hole or smaller on exit. If they don't work will try the 63 sierra next.
Barrel length is only going to be 20" in the rebarreled rifle with either chambering. A suppressor adds length and weight and 20" barrel length has worked out best so far for me.
For bullets in a 22-250 AI fast twist I think either the Barnes 62 TTSX or Sierra 65 SBT could serve double duty.
In a fast twist .243 either the Barnes 80 TTSX which I have used before and had good results, or the Nosler partition 85 gr. could work.
The rifles main purpose is fur.
Now if my 260 would go down for any reason I would just grab this rifle and go.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 15, 2015, 12:02 PM:
Leonard, the .22-243Middlestead has a milder shoulder & holds ~2grains less than the 40° AI version. Lapua .243 cases hold 55.1gr H2o when blown out in my Ackley.
Brent, would going another 2" kill ya on the barrel length? .224 caliber hotrods like 'em as long as you can tolerate, and I bet you'd gain 150fps with a 22" barrel. Just sayin', don't build a race car & put shitty tires on it ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Its that extra 'oomph' of velocity that makes the magic happen, so don't hamstring yourself too badly with a short tube...
I doubt a coyote will know the difference in speed, but you might if the shooting starts to get further on out.
[ December 15, 2015, 12:03 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2015, 12:28 PM:
Wow. A lot to chew on there.
As far as I am concerned, the difference in performance between a stock 243W and a 22-250AI terminally, you can't hardly wedge a piece of paper between, depending on the bullet.
A 22-250AI doesn't need a "fast" twist for 65 grain bullets. Maybe a 1X12" ? One of mine is 12 and the other, faster one is 1 in 14". The problem is, where to get a decent hunting bullet below 68 grains.
You mention #1365 and also write; SBT. That, to me means spitzer, boat tail. I could be mistaken but I thought the 1365 was a flatbase? I have tried both, various times and much prefer the flat base on game, but it's personal choice all the way.
Same thing with a 243. I think standard twist is 1X10 and that's plenty fast to stabilize either bullet you mention, Barnes 80 or Nosler partition? Don't know why you would want that one, I think (not sure) they make a 95gr. partition but if I was considering something in the 80/85 grain range, I would pick the 85 Nosler Ballistic Tip. But, you know what you want, I don't.
On the other hand, for FUR, if it were me, I would look at a pass through bullet in a 243W. Right now, the only two bullets I use in 243 is a 70gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip and the 74 gr. Berger. The 70 BT is possibly the most destructive 24 cal. bullet I have ever used. The 74 Berger seems to work pretty good, based on less than 100 animals?
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on December 15, 2015, 01:22 PM:
KD and Leonard,
I think you have answered the question. Looks like a .243 it will be.
Leonard it has been my experience a faster twist kills better. It also gives you options to run heavier longer bullets.
Fred no it wouldn't kill me to run a 2" longer barrel but I can't think of one time were I took a shot and thought "Dam wish I had a 2" longer barrel." I killed coyotes out to 587 last year with a 20" .243.
Looks like I need to get a reamer and barrel ordered.
Thanks Brent
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2015, 03:02 PM:
I give up, Fred! Where did you get that information?
I said Ackley but didn't mean Ackley? I was thinking of the necked down 243 to .224" bullets and I have been looking at a lot of data and posts, 20deg versus 30deg versus 40 deg.? Apparently the Middlested has a slightly longer neck?
Anyway, where can I find case capacity for three different versions? What I am hearing is that in popular bullet weights there isn't much difference?
Brent, what I actually meant about the terminal performance of a 22-250Ackley and a 243Winchester....is that on a dead coyote the results are the same based on thousands of examples.
I use both of them. Of course, bullet selection will change results but day in, day out, it's pretty hard to beat a plain vanilla 243Winchester.... I also shoot the 6mmRemington and the 243Ackley.
A 243W makes a no fuss coyote cartridge and it's versatile. It will shoot light bullets and heavy bullets and anything in between. One thing about it, you will not regret your choice because it won't fail you. It's like a blank piece of paper, pick the twist, pick the bullet and you can do almost anything with it.
Good luck, El Bee
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 15, 2015, 05:57 PM:
I did run out of the 62's. So I bought several boxes of the 64's which didn't impress me in my rifle. So I tried the 60's and am happy. No noticeable difference between the 60 and 62. Brent, the 60s do ok on fur. Very few exits. LB, our county dropped out of the federal (USDA WS) program about 3 years ago, so I do skin and utilize alot of fur. We are a private county program now and I work for the county with the help of some state funding. I shot a plain jane .243 for years and killed a pretty big pile of coyotes with it. I have since tried several wildcats and in the grand scheme of things haven't really improved on what that .243 would do. I have spent a lot of money and had a lot of fun messing with other stuff, but a 243 win or 6mm rem is just hard to improve on. Light bullets or heavy.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on December 15, 2015, 06:06 PM:
Yeah like Leonard said I have been using the 60 grain Bergers in my .22-250 Ackley. It has been a great Coyote killer for sure. But I wouldn't say it is the most fur friendly gun I shoot. Usually quarter to silver dollar sized exit holes. Mine is 26" 1/12 twist. And the bullets are running about 3800fps.
Good Hunting Chad
[ March 23, 2016, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on December 15, 2015, 07:59 PM:
Everyone Thanks for the replies. I think I am going to try 80 TTSX to begin with. I am forced to use non-lead bullets for my Game and Fish contract so using the same bullet makes it simple. I killed roughly 50 coyotes with that bullet. Not alot but a good sample and all different angles. Most holes were quarter to 50 cent size and every now and then I would have a bigger one normally on bone. Almost always exited. I had just wondered if I could have done better with a hot .22. From the sounds of it its a wash. I do like how the six's carry the energy to a coyote at extended range.
Here is a video of the project I just finished up on. They don't list details but 259 coyotes removed over 4 years.
https://youtu.be/WfZmxDvBxUo
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on December 15, 2015, 08:50 PM:
I watched the video Brent and was wondering how big is the area (Seynoida Plain? SP?) that they talk about in the video?
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on December 15, 2015, 09:41 PM:
Roughly 10 miles x 8 miles give or take.
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on December 15, 2015, 09:55 PM:
Awsome vid. Love that kind of stuff.
Mark
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 16, 2015, 05:19 AM:
Fantastic video!!! Wonderful to see the emotion behind the project, kudos to all involved!!!
Brent, I hear ya. Practical experience trumps all & you've got that in spades! As a rifle junky, my default setting is to try to get the most out of whatever I'm building, hence my opinion. I do realize that eeeking out every last fps from a rifle/load is not at all a necessity, I just like to know how much pedal is left before it hits the floorboard...
Leonard, the Middie is a step up from the straight (neck down & shoot) .22-243Win. The improvement in shoulder angle (to 30 °) allows for a bit more internal volume and less case stretch that the parent case 20° shoulder angle might suffer from.
The .22-243AI is a full blown out version of the .22-243Win. Has little/no body taper left and a sharp 40° shoulder. Same as your Middie, neck down to create a false shoulder and fire away. The end result is a case that holds ~4-5gr more than a .22-243Win, and ~2gr more than a .22-243Middlested.
.22-243Win (fireforming load) left, .22-243AI right.
The Middlested falls somewhere in the 'middle'...
PS, not questioning anyone's credentials, but if you guys shot a .22-243( or AI) side by side with a 243( or AI) in the wind, from 3-500yds, you'd prolly raise an eyebrow at the difference. With same weight bullets, the b.c. improvement makes the .224 caliber a flatter shootin', wind cheatin' SOB...
[ December 16, 2015, 05:28 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 16, 2015, 06:36 AM:
Thanks, Fred. So, if I had not mistakenly said "Ackley" I would have been accurate...I think that's what it is boiled down to?
I bought this rifle from Mercer Lawing and had just barely heard of the Middlested. He had one of those realizations that he was a confirmed 17 caliber fur hunter and had little use for some of the other stuff gathering dust in his safes. He had a 240 Page and this Middlested, but the Middlested came with a spare barrel in 22-250Ackley and a bunch of fireformed brass for both. He intended to just keep just one super accurate rifle in 22-284W for contests. So, that's how I got to where I am. And, I am very pleased with performance, without all the bullshit of building another rifle. That USED to excite me but anymore, with all the long lead time, etc., the thrill up my leg kind of evaporated.
I have the 62 Berger @3810fps and accuracy is as good as I can shoot. Other than blowing the hell out of a few gray fox, what I get from the 62's is dead coyotes without excessive damage. If accuracy holds up, I will probably never need another daylight coyote rifle? Shit, I have yet to screw on the Ackley barrel. I'm good. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
But, for those of you out there, still building that "Dream Rifle", good luck! I appreciate all the passion involved. And remember, it's YOUR dream, not mine or Fred's, so it will do everything! lol
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 16, 2015, 09:06 AM:
Fuckin' A right!
Please forgive my zeal for living vicariously thru your builds, guys. I just love this rifle shit, and thoroughly enjoy the topic...
22/284? I've been considering a 6SAUM for shits & giggles, wonder what a .224SAUM would do??? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 16, 2015, 09:24 AM:
There's MAGIC in the words, Fred.
For me, for years, it was 22Swift! Wow! Then, Ruger started chambering the Model 77V in 220Swift. I HAD to have it! I killed more predators with that rifle than anything since.
Ever since I shot my first bobcat with a borrowed Pre '64 Model 70 in 220Swift. Not exactly between the eyes, the bullet slipped into his left nostril. I was hooked.
Many words have MAGIC, like "Ackley", "Magnum" and "big tits"; stuff like that.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 16, 2015, 11:47 AM:
Leonard, this .22-243AI IS my "Swift", no doubt!
Reason I wanted a .22-243AI is actually Randy S' fault. At the time, I had my .22-243Win in Nebraska and compared one of my cases to one of his Improved cases. As evidenced in the pic above, its easy to see there's quite a bit more room for boom with the AI!
Although Randy didn't feel the increased capacity was worth it for the bullet weight range he likes to use, I just couldn't help from trying that big bastid with a fast twist & heavier boolits to see how much it could beat my (already badazz) .22-243Win.
Well, it does! And no trimming needed, minimal sizing & better brass life. My only concern was feeding, but happily and those no taper SOBs actually feed smooth as butta from a DBM!!! IMHO, can't beat that bitch on a short action, no way! Well, maybe a .22SAUM might...
All fun stuff!!! Figure somebody has gotta be an idiot and try crazy shit, may as well be someone like me who enjoys it!?!?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 16, 2015, 12:15 PM:
Have fun while it lasts, Amigo. Hope it doesn't wear off for you. As I said, It doesn't blow my skirt up like it once did.
Everybody has a dream. Nobody ever did it before! <shrug>
It is fun, I can't disagree.
I have long guns taking up space that I have lost interest in and should probably move it out, but it looks like I am more of a hoarder. Not like Vic, who really blows through an inventory.
Then there is the Okie boys and their short arms. A shelf for S&W, one for 1911 Colts, one for wheelgun Colts, two shelves for Glocks and another for Rugers and plastic bags full of Sigs and Desert Eagles.
(just kidding)
I think I am jealous? Whereas, I can easily put all handguns on one shelf with room to spare.
Truth is, I don't have the money for those goodies. I still have a mortgage!
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: I agree with what AR SHAW thinks, as far as in my application, any version of necking the 243 case to 22 caliber is good enough for my needs. Fred doesn't have problems chambering his Ackley version, which can be a real problem, for others. My Middlested is perfectly fine for what I use it for and as Shaw told me once, I stole it. I actually think I did!
[ December 16, 2015, 12:27 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on December 17, 2015, 12:51 PM:
Fred,
I have looked at the 22-243 AI and the wind drift and it is impressive. If I thought it perform in a 20" barrel I would probably go for it. I have a feeling it couldn't get it done in that short of a barrel. When your's is shot out cut it too 20 and let me know what you can get out of it with 80's.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 17, 2015, 02:43 PM:
No, you're right Brent.
To realize that level of performance, you need at least a 26" barrel. I have a few that go 28 and one is 30" but a 26" barrel does well.
The thing about a 243 is it does perform reasonably well in a short, let's say 22" barrel. You need to choose a slightly faster burning powder for a short barrel.
I had a 6mmRem once that had a 20" barrel. The initial powder I tried was interesting. When fired, it looked like a flamethrower, for at least ten feet from the end of the barrel. The solution was a slightly faster powder that burned completely, inside the barrel, not ten feet past the muzzle.
So, when you look for data, you need to remember that most of the loads you see published will be for average 24 inch barrels, unless noted. If the high velocities are with (for instance) IMR4350, you might be better served with H4064....something like that?
You will figure it out. A 243 is pretty easy to master.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 18, 2015, 04:26 AM:
Brent, mine's maybe only 1/2 way thru life, but I'll do that when it's toast!
Possibly of more expedient help, I have a friend in Utah who's waiting on a reamer to build a 'semi-short' .22-243AI for a can. Will follow up with #s when he's spooled up & runnin'...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 18, 2015, 10:09 AM:
Hey, some of us may not be around for as long as it takes to wear out a barrel exclusively, (or primarily) killing coyotes.
I can safely say it's only happened to me once. I shot a Ruger chambered in 220Swift for something like fifteen years before I gave up and realized the accuracy was gone and never coming back.
And, even then, I still have my "loaner" shooting the long 63gr. Sierra semi pointed way out, to engage what's left of the rifling. So, it's still a long ways from a tomato stake. What a cheap ass!
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 18, 2015, 03:16 PM:
Brent, I always suspected it was you we lost that initial bid to. Sounds like it went to the right guy. Nice work!
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 19, 2015, 06:30 PM:
I wish there was a magical bullet that killed quick at any range and only poked a single caliber sized hole. My 243 AI was on its way to being just that with the 75 Vmax. No exits and dead at the shot. Then one day I shot a coyote about 140 yards and he looked like he swallowed a grenade, more followed.
Now I just use the 22-250AI and 55 NBT's at 38something in my 22" barrel. Just a rebarrelled Kimber Montana and I'm done building rifles. Well I have a 204 and a 223 AI in the same gun but no safes full of useless cannons. Gotta save room for the machine guns and pistols.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 05, 2016, 05:50 AM:
Brent, my buddy just built a straight .22-243Win.
Barrel is a Krieger 1:7.7twist @ 26". He settled on a Berger 75VLD @ 3640fps for his coyote load. Aleady thumped a few with it, and he's tickled pink!!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2016, 06:44 AM:
Need feedback on this Fred. I have no confidence in VLD bulletd on game. LB
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 05, 2016, 07:09 AM:
Leonard, what would make a Berger VLD kill any less well than the lighter weight Bergers you've found favor with?
I've only shot 75Amaxs outta my .22-243Win & AI, and the combined 15-20 coyotes have all died nicely. Dunno if the Berger 75VLD might be more frangible, but those 75Amaxs friggn' blow two holes thru shit, I know that...
KJ prefers 80Amaxs in 22-243AI, maybe he'll chime in? Also, there's another Okie in the fold out there rockin' 75VLDs from a .22-243AI and does a # on coyotes with 'em...
In .243 caliber & up, Berger now makes both a "hunting" and a "target" VLD. The latter having a thicker jacket to better handle sustained strings of fire for F-class/BR type rapid shooting, and whatnot...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 05, 2016, 02:35 PM:
100 makes a more informed sample. 😏
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 06, 2016, 11:59 AM:
Well don't hold your breath for me to satisfy that # (obviously)
BUT, if ya combined what KJ has whacked & seen whacked with my measly total, it'd very likely cover the minimum & then some.
One guy's rifle shot the 75VLDs better than the Amaxs, and they have less bearing surface, which = more speed potential.
KJ likes the 80Amaxs, less spinning and more immediate direct ground contact than the 75Amaxs.
Seems to me that the 75Amax is the 'toughest' of the bunch? They like to penetrate, and don't appear to be prone to blowing apart. Of the couple dozen woodchucks I've shot with the 75Amax, they pretty much just kill the shit outta'm, without overly making a mess.
Also, just poked three holes in 1/4" AR500 plate when shooting them @ 225yds. Too much speed, drilled holes right thru that shit!!! (that was my bad)
Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on January 06, 2016, 01:32 PM:
Will they kill yotes any better than my .22 long rifle? Cause I always take head shots.
Mark
Posted by www (Member # 3918) on January 07, 2016, 06:06 AM:
Will they kill yotes any better than my .22 long rifle? Cause I always take head shots.
I use a .17 HMR,anything under 300 yards is DRT
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on January 15, 2016, 05:50 AM:
Jimanaz,
It has been quite the experience, been some great dog work along the way, and I have learned some stuff along the way thats for sure. For the guys that do it for a living my hats off to them. Its alot of work.
The barrel and reamer are ordered and hopefully before season next year I'll have a new .243 with an 8 twist and 20" barrel ready to roll.
Fred that sounds like a heck of a rifle. My days of long barrels are over. Had a 26" 6XC and it shot great, the only issue was it wouldn't lay across the back seat of the truck with the suppressor on it.
Tom64 I have switched over to Sierra's #1365 bullet in my 22-250 and so far have been very happy with its performance.
I'll be gone for a few days hammering gear in the ground.
Brent
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 16, 2016, 06:00 AM:
And I'm on my way this morning to see my buddy Chad at Long Rifles Inc. I was rebarreling my old faithful .243 to another .243 but Chad tells me I need the .243 Competition Match. It's a hot rod on a blown out .243. I have
Barrel and action in hand and it will be done today! The nice thing about LRI is he'll do it while you're standing there. Thread, chamber, spiral flutes, threaded for suppressor. Kinda fun to watch.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 16, 2016, 07:01 AM:
I used to have a guy like that.... until he decided to breed horses, instead. Go figure?
Actually, it had something to do with avoiding a divorce. <snark>
Never did the fluting, just conventional precision machine work and the longest wait was ordering the barrel.
Those days are over, thankfully, and I have discovered that I don't actually need exotic chamberings to kill a friggin' coyote!
Can't believe I just said that?
That being said, it's amazing the (better mouse trap) possibilities based on 243 Lapua brass. Everybody has a dream.
One thing to consider. I have a couple rifles that also have Wilson dies chambered with the same reamer as the barrel. Wilson dies are not hardened and can be machined, so I buy a blank and bring barrel and the die to the gunsmith who also uses the same reamer to chamber a "loaner rifle" with a junk barrel.
Why? because I can now fireform a couple hundred cases in an hour or so, at the range, while not burning up my premium barrel to accomplish the chore. That, and saving a lot of time. A lot.
However, my recovery is coming along nicely.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 16, 2016, 05:54 PM:
And I'm on my way this morning to see my buddy Chad at Long Rifles Inc. I was rebarreling my old faithful .243 to another .243 but Chad tells me I need the .243 Competition Match. It's a hot rod on a blown out .243. I have
Barrel and action in hand and it will be done today! The nice thing about LRI is he'll do it while you're standing there. Thread, chamber, spiral flutes, threaded for suppressor. Kinda fun to watch.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 17, 2016, 04:35 PM:
Kinda like Groundhog Day, all over again.
Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on January 17, 2016, 09:56 PM:
Yea, really Cal....saying it twice is rubbing it in.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 18, 2016, 04:29 AM:
Excellent, Cal!!!
Have a 1:8 6mm Bartlein sitting here & have been contemplating a 6CM, over doing a .243AI or walkin' the wild side with a 6SAUM.
The 6CM makes better sense than does a 6SLR, another interesting variant derived from the ol' .243Win.
Does Chad have dies for the 6CM?
What boolits ya gonna choot???
Leonard, I hear ya on forming brass from an old barrel. About to blast a bunch of new cases thru mine, set aside for a new tube...
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on January 18, 2016, 07:53 AM:
I keep thinking of sending a project to Chad. I keep hearing very good things about him.
I have a 1:8 6mm Bartlein 2b contour in 6XC. I have just stayed with it since I have a PTG reamer and dies for it.
[ January 18, 2016, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: DanS ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 18, 2016, 09:57 AM:
Fred, I have no concept of these nomenclatures?
What the hell are these things? 6mm Bartlein, 6CM, 6SAUM, and 6SLR.
However, I own a 243W and a 243AI. Are the above cartridges desperately needed, and vastly superior to what I already have? Really?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on January 18, 2016, 05:48 PM:
Sounds like a sweet deal Cal, I'll look at the case design, always fun to look and wish!
Made the luckiest shot I ever taken with my 22-250 saw a coyote while setting gear and decided to make a stand and while calling had a coyote come in and stop and just sit and watch. She stopped and sat for 20 minutes. I left my Geovids at the house so I guessed her at 400 or alittle farther, put the first dot on the BHR reticle on her head and pulled the trigger. Straight down she went. Went over to get her and hit her between the eyes about a 1/4" up and exited at the base of the skull. Bullet hole in and 2x diameter exit. Even a blind hog get lucky!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 18, 2016, 09:00 PM:
I got one like that.
We were totally lost, and stopped right in front of a tank, a terrain feature we thought we could find on the map. So, got out the Geo surv map and spread it out on the hood.
This worked like clockwork. One of us looked up and saw three coyotes standing on the berm surrounding the tank all watching us like they were very interested, but invisible.
So, we came up with a short plan. I have a hatch and my gun was up there, the other two guys had rifles in the back seat. We carefully and casually reached for firearms and some body started a countdown while the coyotes watched intently.
At the shots, they all dropped like rocks, it was beautiful!
That's not all. As we drove up to the tank; which was (I forget) maybe 150? but just driving forward to pick up the animals. Suddenly, another coyote that was down on the other side, by the water ran down the berm at an angle and took off across the flats.
My son started gunning it after the coyote, for some reason? But, those flats weren't very flat and he was tossing us all over the place in his youthful enthusiasm. After much yelling he finally stopped, and I got off a lucky shot that rolled #4.
Probably never forget that one, which was about 15 years ago?
Down memory lane.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 19, 2016, 04:45 AM:
Cool deal, Brent!
Leonard, Bartlein is a custom barrel maker. Along with Brux, Broughton, Krieger, Hart, Lilja, etc... they make good shit!
6CM is short for the 6mm Competition Match cartridge that Cal's having chambered.
(not to be confused with a 6mm Creedmore)
6SLR = 6mm "super long range". Stupid moniker, if you ask me. Another round off a standard .243Win, with a longer neck, from a set back & sharper shoulder...
6SAUM is a necked down 6.5 SAUM (short action ultra magnum) Basically would be a step up in capacity from a 6-284. Would be a a ridiculously overbore menace...
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 19, 2016, 06:52 AM:
KED, Chad makes a sizing die in house. It's pretty cool if you go under the right circumstances he will do it all while you're standing around gawking at all the cool shit there. In and out in about 4 hours. Chambered, threaded, fluted, threaded for suppressor, stock inletted to exact specs, put together and done! Mine is on a ten twist with plans to shoot around 80 grain bullets. It's a coyote rifle, so so long heavies for me. I still believe speed kills and am not banging steel at 1K so I barreled accordingly. For me, a long shot at a coyote maxes out at 500, and in reality 400 is as far as I really want to shoot one. I figure at 400 I'm still above the 90% kill ratio and I won't settle for anything less. Some guys are happy with less, but I'm not. By the time you figure in wind and all the other conditions, that's about my personal take on it. I know the long heavies do a little better in the wind but speed makes up for more slight elevation variances. If I know my yardage and hold I figure I have a little more room for slight error with a flatter trajectory. After all, coyotes broadside are wider than they are tall!
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 19, 2016, 06:54 AM:
BTW, I don't know where the hell the double post came from?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 19, 2016, 07:09 AM:
OK thanks, Fred. I knew they made barrels, but you had me thinking they developed a wildcat cartridge, as well.
We could outlaw new cartridge designs anytime now, and nobody would suffer in the slightest. And, they might save a buck or two on custom dies and case forming, always a drudgery.
How long ago did Ackley do all the groundwork, must be 50-60 years ago and Weatherby, much longer? Since then, not a whole lot, revolutionary, in my opinion. Like, except for the model year, is a '58 Impala vastly superior to the '57 Bel Air? Which one would you take?
Love to chatter about cartridges, such an interesting subject.
(hey, that's the answer, right there!)
Good hunting. El Bee
edit: just saw Cal's response. literally LOL ! Girl friend, over there on a different computer heard me and had to ask what I was laughing about. like I always say, this shit keeps us out of the Honky Tonks so it's all good.
[ January 19, 2016, 07:13 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 19, 2016, 07:29 AM:
Also, commenting on the above post before the puzzlement about doubleposting.
I decided, a long time ago, and I mean maybe mid seventies or so? Don't ask me specifics on exactly why I decided that I was going to dial in my 25'06 Ackley for dead nuts at 430 yards? Has to do with my BC using 100 gr. Noslers. But, that's my (more or less) battle setting, and 500 is a cutoff point, decision wise.
Two reasons, cripples running off, never to be found, and 2nd, dropping out of sight with no visual references, therefore the searching kills ya. If I don't have a good point of reference, at that range, (a landmark) I will not take the shot.
So, great minds think alike. lol
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 21, 2016, 06:42 AM:
For shits & giggles, I have an idea to have a 2nd .224 barrel with a 1:12 twist chambered alongside the 1:8 that's already on deck.
With my Surgeon 591 & action wrench, and a barrel vise, it would only take a couple minutes to swap between them...
Anyhoo, it'd be interesting to see firsthand what both are capable of! Gonna call Swampy today & see what he thinks about his 60gr JLK handling ~4200fps MV. Hoping that ~252,000 rpm shouldn't be too much for 'em? A .339 G1 bc is very decent for that weight bullet, wouldn't slow down in much 400yds, I reckon!
But then, there's that thing about establishing 'on game' performance, which would take me a while to accomplish! All in the interest of science, no doubt.
I agree with you guys on the drop vs. drift deal. And I know that Dave has long been a proponent of the same slow twist & warp speed bullet launch. Might be more a factor of finding a .224 caliber bullet that'll perform favorably?
Any suggestions, gents?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 21, 2016, 07:43 AM:
Not really? I mean, I'm not keeping up with all the trendy advances. I just bailed on the fast twist bandwagon a long time ago for my own reasons. My 22-250Ackleys are 12 and 14 twist and the velocity is right up there. Based on my self imposed limitations, I can get mid range 62-65 grain bullets to do what I want, very satisfactorily.
Personally, I don't have the time to consult a ballistic calculator when I have a coyote (not moving) at an undetermined range, therefore, a flat shooting rifle/cartridge/bullet combination is valuable. A little holdover is all it takes and cross my fingers on the unknowable wind at target distance. I don't think it too deeply past this point.
However, if you are talking about breaking out the action wrench, in the field....include me out. You can only take the "set of golf club" concept so far.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 21, 2016, 11:43 AM:
Just ran #s
Baseline is a 75Amax @ 3600fps.
If I could get a 60gr JLK ramped up to 4200 from a 1:12 twist barrel, it'd shoot 0.5" flatter @ 300yds and 2.2" flatter @ 400yds. Not ground breaking-ly flatter. But...
Comparing rpm, the fast twist & heavy 75Amax is rippin' @ 324,000
While the slow twist 60 JLK is spinnin' 252,000 rpm
That might translate more favorably to increased barrel life?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 21, 2016, 12:53 PM:
.339 @ ~4200 would be a flat shooting sumbitch by anyones standards. Hold on fur to 400, easy.
- DAA
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 22, 2016, 05:04 AM:
Wonder if a .22-243AI could push a 60gr that fast, in reality?
If it only nets 4000fps, a 60JLK at the speed is only beating a 75 @ 3600 in drop by a smidge over an inch @ 400yds.
Cal, how fast was your 22x47L launching a 60gr?
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 22, 2016, 05:35 AM:
Right around 3800 depending on the day. Your 3600 fps 75 grain load is smoking. I know a few 22-243 owners and most are around 3400 with a 75. Those are all non-Ackley.
[ January 22, 2016, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: 3 Toes ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 22, 2016, 05:46 AM:
I will say though, using the BC's off of Berger bullets the difference at 400 yards between a 75 @3600 and a 60 @4200 is 4 inches of drop on the Hornady ballistic calculator. From a hundred yard zero.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 22, 2016, 05:57 AM:
My 22-243Middlested employs a 62 Berger @ 3810fps. At least, during development. I seldom ran it through the screens after that so it's a good enough baseline.
However, (honestly) I was disappointed in those numbers. I could have explored a number of different powders rather than the three I did try, but my attitude became: It is what it is. Velocity is certainly adequate and accuracy is very satisfactory so, I have a barrel that's a little slower than I expected. And, it's not the end of the world. Damned sure, good enough.
Some people are speed freaks, and if they aren't the fastest on their block, they keep searching, trying different propellants, different bullets, dicking with the seating depth, endless tinkering b3ecause somebody bragged about 4200 (for instance) but if it's not in the cards, <shakes head>
You have to juggle all these parameters, BC drop, accuracy, terminal effect and other stuff in descending order of importance. For me, empirically, I have already established a few criteria that are more important than others.
I have a 22-250AI that blows the doors off this Middlested with less capacity, less powder and a heavier bullet. But, the barrel is two inches longer. Sometimes the planets are in alignment. I guess?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 22, 2016, 06:01 AM:
Yes, sorry!
Neglected to mention that I dial my turret up to get a 250yd "working zero" on my .22-243AI. Apex of trajectory is ~160yds, and it's only like 1.7" above line of sight at that distance. That gives me a good 'hold on fur' from 0-340yds.
Anyhoo, was using 250yds as "zero" as a baseline for comparison. See how a more usable zero negates much of the perceived advantage that the lighter bullets afford.
If a .22-243AI could break 4,000fps with a 60gr, the ballistics might be a wash to 400, and the lower rpm generated might help with throat/ barrel life? That might be cause enough to try it out...
Also, a zero freebore slow twist 6SAUM would be a badazz! Trying to replicate what Dave's getting in his 6-284 with 55-60s...would be fun to try, anyway!!! Got a bunch of new "6.5 GAP 4s" brass here, and the bushings to neck them down. Maybe spec'ing a tight neck 6SAUM reamer is in order?
[ January 22, 2016, 06:04 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 22, 2016, 07:11 AM:
Whatever, Fred. I appreciate the quest, but I'm not that militant.
The numbers I get from my 22-250Ackley are established. 65 grain bullet @ 3925fps. On a good day.
I feel that I could potentially push a 60 grain bullet at 4200, in that barrel. But why? I'm not looking to squeeze that last ounce of performance. I have a barrel vice and action wrench but scorching throats happens soon enough, as it is. I believe in moderation. which is why my standard load in that gun is ~1.5 grains under max.
I love to talk about these things, but restraint where the rubber meets the road.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 22, 2016, 08:03 AM:
"But why?"
That's my point.
Why would I opt to go slow twist & lighter bullets if a 75@3600 is so close in trajectory?
If your .22-250AI could rock a 60 to 4200, then a .22-243AI will do the same...but at a lower pressure. The "no free lunch" rule in effect, only way a smaller case beats a larger one is to run at a higher pressure...
In that regard, doesn't running a larger case at lower pressure to ent the same speed make decent enough sense?
Yep, love BS-ing about this stuff, too! If anything, it makes me wanna goof around & build shit for no other reason than for the heck of it!!! In the meatime, gonna try RL22 again my m .22-243AI to see if I can't get a 75 to 3700...
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 22, 2016, 08:24 AM:
Fred, I used to know a guy that had a .22-284 w/30" 14T. If I'm remembering right, he was getting 4K w/64's.
Just a random data point to add to the confusion .
I was getting 3500 with the 75 Amax in both of my 8T .22-250AI barrels, but they were long, too. Can't believe that I don't remember exactly how long, I really am starting to forget an awful lot of shit. But they were somewhere in the 28-30" range.
My current trajectory king is my .20 Dasher. Have hardly ever even shot it, really. Worked up a load and took it 'chuck hunting a couple times, been gathering dust since then. The load I ended up at was 39 BK's around 4400. The loads that barrel came with though (from the same guy that had the .22-284), were clocking almost 4600 fps! Can you say "stiff bolt lift", ha-ha! But, again, long barrel, and again, I can't remember exactly how long. At least 28" though. Blaine used it exclusively for lamping cats. He just didn't want to have to care how far the eyes on the canyon rim were.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 22, 2016, 08:30 AM:
That's close to what I was getting with a 75gr.TNT behind a load of R22 or #2700 in my 25'06Ackley. I'm not home right now and I don't remember the charge, but I'm sure it was a "fairly" moderate load pushing 3650fps. I do not shoot hot loads. I only remember killing one coyote with that load, and it was like he swallowed a hand grenade. But, I much prefer the 100 gr. Ballistic Tip in that rifle.
I used to be a lot more Gung Ho, Fred. Now, I'd rather talk about it than actually spend the money. You might mellow, too.
Like at the beginning of the thread, when you get right down to it, a plain vanilla 243 will kill a lot of coyotes.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 22, 2016, 08:36 AM:
Dave,
Yeah I think I remember Blaine saying he ran those 64 grain bullets like 4400 fps. Amazing........
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 22, 2016, 09:12 AM:
Yup. Blaine tried to give me that .22-284 a few days before he died. I wouldn't/didn't take it.
Have kind of regretted that, since. I think I'd have given it a good home and it would have made him a little bit happier to know I had it.
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on January 22, 2016, 09:16 AM:
Yeah you should of taken it. If nothing else for the sentimental value......
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 22, 2016, 11:09 AM:
Yes, I agree. And, I remember, at the time telling you the same thing. Also, what about a 14 caliber rifle? Just for what Fred would say is shits and giggles? Have not heard much about them lately?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 22, 2016, 12:54 PM:
I reckon a couple extra inches of barrel + higher ASL is good for nearly 100fps with your guys .22-250AIs. Still, that's plenty badazz for that powder burn!!!
And 4400 with 64s....SHEESH Dang!!! That is some ragged edge of crazy shit right there, makes me smile just to think of it...
Got 12-18" of white stuff on the way,with 50mph winds to spread it around. Hope we get the full monty! Love it when the shit hits the fan here...LMAO!
Stay safe, Nick. Looks like you're gonna get it real good in Joisey!
[ January 22, 2016, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 22, 2016, 04:18 PM:
At least you're happy to see the storm Fred! I'm about shit full of the news and weather channels spin on it. We have blizzards as bad here every winter and nobody gives a damn. Not even a blip on the news. But have one in the east and it's the end of the world as we know it.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 22, 2016, 07:01 PM:
That's funny Cal !! I hear ya man.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 22, 2016, 07:23 PM:
Yes, they have to hype stuff, it's in their DNA. And, not only the east coast. They always make a big deal out of mudslides and any rain that fills the gutters and makes puddles. Don't forget our fires and earthquakes, hype the hell out of that stuff. High tides, big surf, El Nino; and GLOBAL WARMING is responsible for all of it. Excuse me, I meant "climate change".
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on January 23, 2016, 08:11 AM:
Well we got 21" of snow in 15 hours, here.
They pre-salted the shit out of the roads, making driving conditions even worse (yesterday).
Then, they gave up on plowing, altogether, about 2am this morning, pretty obvious they were fighting a losing battle.
The real BIG difference between a snowstorm in Wyoming and here... 12+ million idiots, not prepared to drive in it, driving in it anyways! ...are there even 12 million people in Wyoming?
Top that off with *I think they said "4 million miles of power transmission lines at risk" **I dunno WHY they don't bury all this shit after a hurricane or some other natural disaster? *It's like they want it to fail. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
And we get our ass kicked, take Hurricane Sandy for instance, often enough and bad enough, that it's hard not to take it seriously, even if the weatherman is Chicken Little.
Keep your powder dry!
Krusty
P.S. I have many thoughts on the whole east vs west coyote hunting thing, but I'll keep them to myself and say Dave's got a pretty good grasp on how things work (or don't work) here.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 23, 2016, 09:59 AM:
We got 15" here already and only halfway thru. 24" now expected, and it's howling from the NE.
GOV dickweed just issued a travel ban by 2:30pm. and can't say I disagree. Even with a small % of morons, the population is large enough to insure some disastrously stupid shit will happen. "SUV overconfidence" and whatnot...
All good with me! I get a kick out of the panic that sets in. Aside from the coastal areas that flood, a couple feet of snow and 50mph+ winds aint a big deal. Good fun, actually!!!
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 23, 2016, 04:51 PM:
According to Siri, the population of Wyoming is 586,000. Which is still a few hundred thousand too many.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on January 23, 2016, 07:47 PM:
Interesting were up to 1.65 million now. 39th among the 50 states. 7th in least densely populated.
Translation if you take the Boise area out of the equation it's a pretty decent place.
Being an hour away from Boise now, helps a lot..
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 24, 2016, 06:54 AM:
Siri, eh? Wyoming must be a lot more cosmopolitain than I ever suspected?
Mu son-in-law has that hooked up in the greatroom. The purpose escapes me? It's always interjecting puzzling comments. His excuse is, he has worked for Apple 25 years, what's yours? (just kidding) Whatever, I get some very decent discounts through him.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on January 24, 2016, 06:56 AM:
I spend most days alone Leonard. Gotta have someone to visit with!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 24, 2016, 07:11 AM:
Yeah, and I forgot what it's like being snowed in, all winter.
That's one thing that cracked me up about the Navajo Res. All those remote hogans behind every hill; but they all had a DirectTV dish and an ice chest for the beer.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on January 24, 2016, 03:37 PM:
Cal,
I am surprised you cut it off at 500. I'll go a little farther but it requires that I have time to dial and know the exact yardage. I try to split the difference between speed and the heavies. I don't deal with the wind you do,but I deal with enough to know I need all the help I can get.
Brent
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on January 25, 2016, 05:23 AM:
Brent, my friend Kerry built a 20" .243AI to use with his can. He's running a 58Vmax @ 3650fps and like how it shoots & handles. Surely he'll be whackin' coyotes with it, soon...
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 26, 2016, 11:41 AM:
I'm going to neuter one of my hot rods. Haven't decided which one yet, but now leaning towards the .20-250. Might still be close to .204R performance (yawn...) at 19". Or not. But I'm thinking I'm going to find out.
Just can't handle a 30"+ barrel including suppressor. Getting something like that in and out of the Jeep ten times a day would be just more PITA than I can stand.
So... 18", 19", is where I'll have to be for a barrel that's getting suppressed. Just thinking about the velocity loss gives me kind of empty feeling though...
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on January 26, 2016, 12:19 PM:
Yeah, but.
Friends don't let friends neuter perfectly good - stuff.
Should we call for an intervention?
This will cost you (what) $1,400, minimum?
OK I will shut up.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on January 26, 2016, 01:27 PM:
Once you own a suppressor it all becomes more clear about barrel length though I never was one for long barrels. My current .223 has a 12.5" barrel and is pretty dam handy. My preference is around 20" though with the bigger stuff. I just haven't seen a need for a longer barrel with what I do and don't plan to shoot anything unsuppressed.
Posted by 92soggy (Member # 4362) on January 26, 2016, 08:51 PM:
My 21" 17-204 w/ a gemtech trek-t is the same overall length as it was with a 26" barrel.
I did drop from 4050fps to about 3900, but it seems to kill them just as good. I've had a few kills in the 3-350 range this year. That said I think I will go with a 22" barrel next time.
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on March 16, 2016, 05:17 AM:
Hey Cal,
Hows that new rifle doing?
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on March 16, 2016, 06:15 AM:
Brent, It shoots really well. The problems I'm having are the same as most others I suppose. I can't find the powder and bullets I want. The bullets I found a good supply of are 87 grain V-max and they shoot well, but are a bit hard on stuff. I have went through every slow burning powder I can find and most are too slow. The perfect one would probably be RL-22. I can't find any.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 16, 2016, 07:35 AM:
Cal, I just got a bunch of 87VLDs from Brownells the other day, they are the "Hunting" version. Better b.c. than the Vmax and less bearing surface, should allow for a couple inches of ballistic cheating...
As for powder, ya got any H4350 to push 'em?
H-100v looks real good, too. And R-17 looks like the speed king of the lot.
(using Quickload with a 243AI baseline data & slightly adjusted capacity for your CompMatch)
Posted by Brent Parker (Member # 4354) on March 17, 2016, 05:32 AM:
Thanks Cal,
I ran those 87 v-max for a season and saw the same thing. They are a good compromise between bc. and weight. I ended up going with Barnes 80 TTSX bc not near as good but for a fur bullet I like them. Even shot a couple of cats with them and damage was 50 cent pc. exit.
UBB.classicTM
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