This is topic What rifle-bullet combo would you choose if forced into battle? in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by Frank (Member # 6) on March 11, 2014, 09:31 PM:
Just for the sake of argument: pick your rifle, pick your caliber, pick your bullet, pick your velocity......what combination would be the best if you were forced into a war zone and your neck was on the line? What would you like to see in a rifle and cartridge combination that your life depended upon? What would be the best killer?
I'm just curious what most people here would choose to use for a bullet and rifle combination if they were forced into battle?
In short, what would you choose if you were limited to an M-16.....what barrel twist, what bullet weight, what bullet construction, what velocity would you choose, etc?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 11, 2014, 10:32 PM:
Maybe an AR10 in 308? I dunno?
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 12, 2014, 03:56 AM:
Accuracy International AXMC switch-barrel platform, shooting standard military .308 ammo.
Google it...
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on March 12, 2014, 05:00 AM:
I'd probably just grab the first AR15 .223 that I could find. Figure if I run out of ammo., someone around me will have more of it. Feed it what ever ammo. I can find that goes BANG when I pull the trigger.
Posted by Frank (Member # 6) on March 12, 2014, 07:38 AM:
What I’m trying to do is come to some kind of conclusion or settle a discussion as what would be better at killing people if you were called up to go to war. Let’s say you were stuck with the M-16 but you could choose bullet weight, construction, speed, rifle twist, and barrel length.
What combination of the above factors do you think would make the most efficient killer given the limitations of the .223 round?
In my opinion, slowing down twist, lightening the bullet to, say, 52gr, and cranking up the speed would make for a better killer than using a 77gr bullet with a 1:7 twist going allot slower. I'm talking the use of FMJ bullets here.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 12, 2014, 02:43 PM:
The best killer in my 223Ackley is the 55gr. VMax. I do not use, haven't in many years, a regular 223 because I think the round is inadequate to kill coyotes, much less adult humans. And, when I was working on the failed project, I used every bullet I had on hand that had always worked well in my 220Swift. The results were surprisingly similar. Spinners, yelps and runners requiring a second and third shot.
So, I have little confidence in 223 as a Parabellum. If forced to use it, I guess your suggesting has some merit. I would rather use the hydrostatic shock of the faster 52 gr bullet in a twelve twist than opt for the long range advantage of a 69-77 grain FMJ. Since the 223 isn't a long range item and never will be, I don't understand exactly what the military is trying to do. If that's your angle, I tend to agree.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 12, 2014, 08:22 PM:
The guys who get to choose, choose MK262 ammo loaded by Black Hills. The 77 gr OTM bullet does very well at 2800 fps with kills in excess of 800 yards in Iraq and Afghanastan.
It does suffer poor barrier penetration but it extends the range on human tissue. The 55 gr M193 was very limited in range when used in a 14.5" barrel. The 62 gr M855 was better but both need to yaw and break in half to do more than punch a .224" hole.
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm
Give me a 16" RECCE and MK262. I have used my own version on coyotes enough to know it works well. Shot this one in the butt this weekend at 175 yards while he was running away from me. Flipped him end over end while I watched in the scope, he never moved after that. Of course maybe he tripped and broke his neck?
My version of the RECCE too wearing a VX6 1-6 scope, it's as good as it gets.
Of course if you throw away the FMJ bullets, the Barnes TSX will punch through a deer and actually kill it too, like my daughter did on 2 does this year with another gun I wouldn't be afraid to grab.
But you're probably right ElBee, the 223 might be too small for coyotes.
The 55 Vmax? That bullet has a lighter jacket than the 50 gr NBT you scolded me about...
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on March 12, 2014, 10:07 PM:
An original Colt Commando w/M193 would suit me just fine or the modern equivalent, the H&K 416 w/a can & 55gr "Holler Points".
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 13, 2014, 07:27 AM:
Save your breath, Tom. I'm never admitting a 223 with any bullet you care to mention is a bang/flop coyote rig. It just ain't.
It's not all that different, but my comments concerning the 55VMax is in my 223 ACKLEY with it's far superior performance. lol Or, put another way, not worth the effort, truth be told. Not when a plain vanilla 22-250 blows it out of the water without even trying.
Good hunting. El Bee
PS and BTW, I got three separate emails from our favorite nonmember concerning your comments. To summarize, he thinks you are full of shit. lol (don't take it too hard)
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 13, 2014, 09:29 AM:
Well you know old theories never die just old theorists. I don't put any stock in the old VN war rumors that the nonmember believes about purposely tumbling bullets and wounding vs killing.
I believe in results and have brought same in the form of dead shit and ballistic data from Dr. Roberts. There are guys who make their living by killing and they stake their lives on MK262. Is it the best? Not by a long shot based soley on ballistics but throw it into the overall package and it's still king of the hill.
The US govt has spent almost 50 years working the bugs out and no one has come up with a better solution. Even the soviets quit their 7.62x39 and switched to a 5.45x39.
So the fact that timmy doesn't agree with me tells me I've no need to worry, I'll do that if we ever agree on anything.
Again it's results that interest me not theories. I even had a coyote shrug off a 55 gr NBT from my 22-250ai so nothing is a bang flop caliber, you just have to know your limits.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 13, 2014, 04:04 PM:
quote:
I even had a coyote shrug off a 55 gr NBT from my 22-250ai so nothing is a bang flop caliber, you just have to know your limits.
Yeah, and you still need to do your part. Know what I mean? ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 13, 2014, 05:31 PM:
Ya I know what you mean. No fault of the caliber, I made a bad shot but that point goes both ways.
And you're forgetting, I started killing coyotes with a 22 magnum and moved up to a 222 Remington for a few years before getting my first 22-250. So I still find your dislike of the 223 odd and your failure with the Ackley version even odder.
But that's what keeps campfires burning, discussing the "best" calibers and bullets.
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on March 13, 2014, 08:06 PM:
Osamaasswipe was probably killed by a 77gr Sierra MatchKing hollow point, that alone makes it cool! And for what its worth the 77gr "Open Tip" is at least 100% better than the projectile it replaced, the 62gr Green Tip FMJ, maybe more! As for the 5.56/.223 cartridge it is what our soldiers use and it does work. As a varmint round for me, it works fine in Southeastern Okla. If I was hunting out west I would change to a 22-250 or (for me my 6mmAI) something similar with increased power/range. But for the most part a .223 Rem w/the right bullet is all most anyone needs when hunting east of I35 in Okla.
Tom and I both had a good laugh the other morning, he sent me a message just as I came in from hunting. He was headed out as I was just finishing up, hunting the coming cold front. We both killed coyotes, me using the puny 22mag and him using the whimpy .223 ,I used the rimfire because it or a shottie is whats legal at night.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 13, 2014, 08:30 PM:
I got my first .223 in 1976, a Ruger #3 carbine, then other makes and models to follow. I did most all my hunting with a .223, many, many deer, an antelope, javelinas and a feral hog down in Texas, as well as hundreds of coyotes and many fox and bobcats.
I wouldn't hesitate to pick up a good accurate .223 and shoot anything that walks in the western US. I have gone the other way in the last 20 years, to my mind, the .223 is to hard on coyotes and small predators like fox and bobcats,so I prefer calibers in the "teens".
Posted by MClark (Member # 4087) on March 14, 2014, 07:39 AM:
IIRC the Geneva Convention requires real militaries to use FMJ to be "humane".
However when the chips are down I would use a 308 (or larger) softpoint, any decent torso shot and they are not getting up.
Hunting small deer, about the size as a person, with 224 FMJs would result in a lot of lost game unless good head shots.
Mark
Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on March 15, 2014, 04:13 AM:
I'm currently reading a great book titled 'Trigger Men' by Hans Halberstadt and last nite a section got my attention when discussing this issue.Quoting one of the sniper greats on why at times they have to use their M4s instead of M24s 0r M40s as follows:
"My rack grade M4 was modified with a suppressor,a match grade trigger,and an ACOG sight,and it was making first round hits at 730 meters!The MK262 77 gr Black Hills ammo is by far the preferred ammo for the M4-it is deadly!It provides reliable first hit incapacitation.We've had incidents where enemy insurgents have been shot and hit in the same place at the same distance with the 77 gr round and the standard army 62 gr bullet; the guy hit with the lighter bullet was patched up and lived.....
After that second engagement in Ramadi where we saw how well it performed,every one of the team got rid of the old 'green tip' rounds and loaded up our mags with the new ammo.It was so much more effective and accurate.With our modified rack-gradeM4 carbines,we were able to shoot sub-MOA.This combo did everything we wanted a rifle to do."
For what it's worth.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 15, 2014, 07:49 PM:
I've been using the 77's for a few years now and they work on coyotes. I've also paid attention to those who've used them over yonder and have yet to hear anything different.
The only ones who doubt them are those who haven't tried them. Funny how that works...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 15, 2014, 09:07 PM:
Don't misunderstand me, Tom. I could care less about 77gr. 223 bullets, life is too short to use a cartridge you have no confidence in. I always believed a coyote rifle should be (at least) chambered in 22-250 Remington.
Yes, I tried a few 223's strictly for close range Arizona cover. I used the 223Ackley in South Dakota and Texas which was never my intentions but whatever? Reinforced my conviction.
Anyway, use what you want and so will I. K?
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 16, 2014, 11:28 AM:
Sorry Leonard, just trying to help Frank out with some facts and experience.
By all means, use a cannon if you need one.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 16, 2014, 01:22 PM:
Okay, now I know where you're at. That's what John henry always accused me of; using a canon. And, he didn't mean the camera. As you, he didn't exactly say it was illegal and morally wrong to use a 22-250 to cover all aspects of the possibilities dealing with a coyote coming to a call, because after all was said and done, if shaming me didn't work, control freaks have nothing left in the tool box, other than their "permission". I'm quite sure you are far more bothered by my "canon" than I am about your wimpy 223.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 16, 2014, 01:48 PM:
Not even close Leonard, I mean use a real freaking canon if you want to, just quit speculating.
I use a 243ai too so don't think I'm that easy to peg.
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on March 16, 2014, 02:12 PM:
You fellers crack me up. LB, is it possible you were jinxing the 223 by using the V (for vapor) Max bullets? I know lots of coyote hunters like and use the plastic tip "blowup tip" bullets but half of the You Tube videos I watch include multiple spinners. I always thought a spinner was the result of a too far back hit, or a poor choice of bullet, not from being under gunned. I've said it before and will repeat it, as far as I'm concerned Coyote hunting starts by using a 22-250. If there is a better cartridge available (excluding fur collection) I want one
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 16, 2014, 05:05 PM:
To repeat. I used every bullet I had on hand that worked well in my 220Swift and this was before anybody ever heard of plastic tipped bullets. I really do know the difference between what works and what doesn't, and not cherry picking specific areas where a 223 could "work". I have seen a vast range of terrains and faunas and night and day situations where a 22-250 seems extremely adequate. A 223 seems, well, limited.
Good hunting. El Bee
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