This is topic um, Fred? in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.


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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 04, 2013, 05:34 PM:
 
Grapevine says you had an long range adventure recently.

Care to fill in the Peanut Gallery?
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 05, 2013, 09:02 AM:
 
Sure, Leonard.

Had a big buck @ 755yds, been watching him for over an hour.
Took the shot, and he took a step just as I fired.
Resultant impact was in right rear leg above the knee joint, he humped off.
Tracked him for an hour, following blood in the snow.
Neighbor hunter shot him from his treestand, as we pushed the buck past his position. Hunter knew we were in there tracking and finished the buck off with a neck shot.
Since my shot was not immediately fatal, I congratulated him on his fine deer and helped him dress it & get it loaded up.

Rifle: GAP 7WSM
Scope: Premier 5-25x56 Gen2XS
Load: 162 Amax @ 2960fps
Temp: 8degrees F, no wind

Dope: 4.6mils UP from 100yds zero

Questions/comments?
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 05, 2013, 12:03 PM:
 
Did he give you some venison, or at least some of that rear leg?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 05, 2013, 01:09 PM:
 
You are a good guy, Fred. No offense, okay?

What happened is exactly why I am not in favor of long range big game. While the bullet is in flight, it's unbelievable how much an animal can move. Personally, I limit my long range shooting to just beyond 400 yards, unless it involves a cripple, but I limit those shots to coyotes. Big game, (sorta) about 100 yards less.

I shot a coyote once that ducked off the two track just as I pulled the trigger and I knew I gut shot him. This was at night and I might never have found him if he had not snagged about 15 ft. of intestine wrapped around a bush. Actually, the whipping bush is what got my attention, but otherwise, he would still be running. And, dying somewhere. And, this wasn't even a long shot, probably 150ish? Clean miss at 200, maybe?

Okay, end of lecture, didn't mean to pick on you, but (you know) a couple of your friends brought it to my attention, too chickenshit to post it under their own name, probably not? Shit happens, I know.

But, what do you think? Now that you have that "death ray", are you going to consider consequences?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 05, 2013, 01:41 PM:
 
Wow! That's too bad that happened..

Stop to think about it though, that deer must have one hell of a step as the shot was off roughly 3' in windage and about 1 1/2' low, if it didn't move most likely a gut shot which could of turned out worse..
The guys that do that sort of stuff on TV end up wounding more than half of what they shoot at and kill..
Hope its a lesson learned.

I take long shots at coyotes all the time, the thing is if a shot is off they have no where to go or hide and finished off shortly. As for big game I don't even think about taking a long shot..

[ December 05, 2013, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 05, 2013, 03:27 PM:
 
Leonard, seeing as how I volunteered what happened via a thread on NPHA, I OBVIOUSLY don't care who knows what & who's whispering to each other about it. If I was in some way disgraced by what happened, do you think I'd be delusional enough to post about it online?
The reason I did so, was to maybe get some wheels turning about exactly when you mentioned. Time of flight of the shot was .96 seconds. And contrary to Tim's armchair fuck-stick analysis, an animal can indeed move enough during that timespan to alter point of impact. Especially when its quartering away slightly and moving uphill...

Did I learn something? Yep, sure did. Learned the same lesson that any hunter on Earth has ever learned about wounding an animal...it SUX. But, I tried my best to clean up my mess. And as fate would have it, it was finished in an expedited fashion.

I can take all the ridicule anyone wants to throw, with one stipulation. That the person throwing it has never wounded, or not recovered an animal they'd previously shot. Hypocrisy only goes so far...

BTW Tim?

uh....FUCK YOU

I now damn well you read every stinkin' post on every forum you're banned on. So, surely you hd to be frothing at the mouth when Leonard started this thread. Soon as I read it, knew you'd be true to form & try to take a shit on my head about it. Kudos for being you, DICK.

Tell ya what?
If you want to lecture me on shooting shit at distance, bring your best rifle & gear and a bag of hundreds to Leonard's Campout next year. Take me to school, show me how to shoot and take my money as a bonus while you're at it! We'll go shot for shot for cash, from as far away as you want until that bag you brought is EMPTY

Unless you accept, don't bother responding.

OK, so who's NEVER wounded an animal & wants to tell me again that what I've already admitted to was a mistake?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 05, 2013, 03:43 PM:
 
I didn't shit on your head Fred, you managed to do that all by yourself..

This thread kind of reminds me of the 17 HMR crap.. LOL

Those in the know say don't do it but there has to always be one apple that has to find out for himself and then comes back on the boards and cry about it.. Like I said in the other post too bad it had to happen......
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 05, 2013, 03:47 PM:
 
Fred, I already offered my opinion and my intention was not to embarass you, I am sure you are man enough to stand up for what and how it happened. As I said, my beef is not with you. I have been saying the same thing for many years about ethical shots on game. It's always a risk. I've killed a dozen coyotes in a row and then something happens? Everybody misses.

I know a guy that takes nothing but chip shots. And, he still misses a few. I know another that likes the challenge of long, difficult and running shots. Can't say I agree with that attitude either. If I have to choose, I pick something in between those two extremes.

I won't rat out Tim. But, good guess!

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 05, 2013, 03:55 PM:
 
Fred
You are no lite weight you understand your equipment and its capabilities. The fact that you are the one that brought this up over on the other board speaks volumes. You had a bad outcome and were willing to bring it to the light for discussion. You have my respect fwiw.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 05, 2013, 04:36 PM:
 
Me too, if it's not obvious. I'm not throwing rocks at Fred, this is a discussion about ethical hunting and exactly what it is, for everybody.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 05, 2013, 04:43 PM:
 
I think it was good of you to post the details of the hunt Fred. The outcome ended better than 99.9% of other hunters who have wounded animals. Let me know what you spend all of Timmy's money on after that shoot-out, should be interesting.
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 05, 2013, 05:02 PM:
 
wookie
we are expecting you to be there and see it for yourself.
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 05, 2013, 06:25 PM:
 
When is it and will snow camo and bunny boots work out down there? Are we allowed to place bets on the shooters?
 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 05, 2013, 06:53 PM:
 
I'm thinking mid October, side bets galore. doesn't matter what you wear one behind every bush. Actually Jeans and a tee shirt is good.

[ December 05, 2013, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 05, 2013, 07:09 PM:
 
Tim is the only one I ever saw wearing knee high boots, suitable for the north woods. In fact, he was sorta dressed like Paul, flannel shirt, full beard, etc.

Bunyon.
Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 05, 2013, 08:09 PM:
 
Yep and I'm sending you a pair of knee highs for Christmas, you won't be needing those sandals any longer...

Just guessing on the size but hey you can use the wrapping paper to fill in the toes..
 

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Posted by TundraWookie (Member # 1044) on December 05, 2013, 08:21 PM:
 
I'll probably feel comfortable in shorts and sandals...except you guys have those sharp needle-like things in the sand don't you?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 05, 2013, 08:49 PM:
 
Better stay out of the big dick contest, Tim. I wear a 13 boot.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: oh, and Tundra. Mid October at Ash Fork is not shorts and sandals weather.

[ December 05, 2013, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 05, 2013, 09:19 PM:
 
You shouldn't have any problems with the wind tipping you over.

Usually the guy with the longest skies has the shortest pole.


 

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Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on December 05, 2013, 10:25 PM:
 
Ash Fork : Mid October DATIME 70* NIGHTS 35*
Terrain: rolling prairie , juniper and pine breaks. You Know Gods country.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 06, 2013, 04:29 AM:
 

quote:

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Those in the know say don't do it but there has to always be one apple that has to find out for himself and then comes back on the boards and cry about it.. Like I said in the other post too bad it had to happen......

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Hey fuck-stick,
I didn't have to "find out for myself", I already knew better. My mistake was in making a bad judgement call. And that's what I admitted to...

Here's some logic for ya, f-stick. Maybe you can grasp a concept?

Consider encountering a STOP sign while driving. You already KNOW that the sign plainly means STOP, yet you kinda roll thru it, cuz you've been thru that intersection, many times. Even though you are fully cognizant of what that STOP sign means, a slight err in judgement justifies that you to roll thru it, rather than come to a complete STOP...

Problem is, you didn't see that other car rolling thru the same intersection. And, since you can't POSSIBLY control that vehicle, you are now involved in a fender bender!

And what was the reason?

Hint: it was NOT because you FORGOT what STOP meant, or didn't know better.

It was because you made a bad judgement call!
Nothing more, nothing less...

See the logic, fuck-stick?

That's what I did, and that's what I admitted to.

And just thinkin' that maybe YOU could learn something about being man enough to admit folly on occasion?

Then again, prolly not...

Thanks for the words, gents.

[ December 06, 2013, 04:32 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 06, 2013, 06:28 AM:
 
You were just feeling guilty for your fuck-up and had to confess to some one hoping they would forgive you for your actions. 10-15 yrs. ago they would of burned you at the stake over on P.M.. Funny how things change....
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 06, 2013, 07:28 AM:
 
Tim, knock it off! Everybody knows the situation and Fred called his own number, fer kristsake!

As far as I am concerned, BEST CASE SCENARIO: taking a shot at 755 yards would involved a bedded animal, no detectable wind.

But, the man had a new stick, I understand the motivation.

I want to see a shooting contest between Tim and Fred.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 06, 2013, 10:25 AM:
 
Leonard, that rifle is about six years old, but only has about 800 something rds. thru it. I baby it & don't shoot it just to shoot it, mainly from 400-1200yds shootin' steel & goofin' around.
Swapped the stock out last month on it & re-zeroed it for the season. Then shot this group @ 440yds, its an honest to goodness hammer...


That ain't braggin', that's how this rifle shoots. And that's why I feel comfortable even considering a 750yd shot on a game animal with it.

Shooting that rifle against any of fuck-stick's "custom BDC" turret rigs would NOT constitute a fair fight. But then again, any fighter will tell ya that if you're fighting fair, you're doing it wrong!
In truth, timmy would be a bigger moron that I ever could have dreamed if he accepts the challenge.

You don't bring a Kenton BDC turret to a gunfight...

BTW, tim. you're 100% correct!
I did feel guilty, that's the whole point, ya dipshit

Congrats on making that connection, Capt. Obvious...

[ December 06, 2013, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 06, 2013, 01:00 PM:
 

quote:

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I want to see a shooting contest between Tim and Fred.

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I don't get into it like Fred does shooting steel plates way out there so Fred wins. He does need to work on shooting live targets though.. Perhaps start at 100 yds and work your way out..

[ December 06, 2013, 01:04 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 06, 2013, 08:58 PM:
 
Fred don't get all pissy, just thinking out loud.
Anyway the report from your rifle must be reaching the deer at that range before the bullet so the deer is what we call jumping the string when bow hunting.. So if you try a similar shot in the future perhaps you have to compensate for this by aiming in front of shoulder or neck area rather than shoulder point or lungs.
Anytime I shoot at a coyote that's more than 300 yds I try to aim a little more to the high side and forward, maybe that's what you need to do as well.. later....
 

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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on December 07, 2013, 06:11 AM:
 
We are hunters. We occasionally wound shit. I have guided hundreds of hunters that were relatively ineffective at ranges less than a couple hundred yards. I would rather guide Fred to a 700 yard shot than some of the guys I get at 100. It is truly amazing sometimes how many people really can't shoot. At any distance. A guy screwing up a shot that he would normally make, 70 yards or 700, happens occasionally. So what. There are many more out there that can't normally make any kind of shot at all. I think they fully plan on missing and are used to it. Even with coyotes. I know some pretty well known coyote hunters that are really marginal shots. As for Fred, I'm guessing if you gave him the same shot 10 times, 8 or 9 of those he would make with no problem. As for the other one or two times, as the saying goes, shit happens. It happens to most hunters at way closer ranges. Most deer hunters probably wound or miss 50 % percent of the time. I've seen it first hand hundreds of times.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2013, 06:56 AM:
 
What Cal says is apparently, (and unfortunately) true.

Some years ago, my partner and I ventured up north and were successful. In the course of which, let's just say we were sorta lucky but the guide was so impressed that he took us to town and bought us drinks to celebrate, then took us out the following day on his dime! He said, at the time that it was unbelievable how many hunters are extremely poor shots and it gladdened his heart to see a coupe of competent marksmen.

My take on it was "dude hunters" might be poor shots, as a group; those that hire a guide. But the way it's getting now, with access, etc. Even those that can find their own game need the services of a guide, these days.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: PS Deer Hunters. Wow! Back in the days when I used to go to a public range just before "opening day" and eventually learned to avoid it. They are almost comical! They take a couple shots standing, make a gesture with their hands like they are holding a basketball and say: "That otter be good enough!" It's enough to keep a guy out of the woods on Opening Day, that's for sure!

[ December 07, 2013, 07:01 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on December 07, 2013, 07:59 AM:
 
Fred, curiosity got the best of me and I had to go over the NPHA board to read the details. Honestly, I gotta hand it to you for telling the story. You posted up the details and admitted your mistakes knowing full well you were probably going to take some heat.

We've all been there before and reading your comments about losing the buck took me right back to the times when I knew I'd hit, but finding the animal wasn't likely to happen.

As a side question, TA's comment about aiming high and forward for shots over 300 yards to compensate for critters jumping the bullet???

My pea-brain makes me think that at 755 yards and the bullet getting there in less than a second there was no way the sound got there first...

Thought on that from the ballistic experts and math wizzes?

[ December 07, 2013, 08:00 AM: Message edited by: Lonny ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 07, 2013, 08:19 AM:
 
Most definitely Lonny, ta17 was just pulling that out of his ass for damage control.

If we're gonna jump on shooters who take long shots, then let's jump on bow hunters too. In fact let's jump on the muzzle loaders as well. Don't they know there's better equipment available? I'd bet that bow hunters wound 3 for every deer they kill and muzzle loaders can't be far behind. And what about the gun hunters who shoot and give a half hearted attempt to find their deer, if at all.

Quite frankly after shooting a little long range and seeing the effort that is put into it just for steel, I don't have a problem with taking game as long as the guy knows his limit. Yes shit is gonna happen but it happens up close as well.

Now ta17 has once again shown his true colors and sucked Leonard down the toilet with him. I'm disappointed, Leonard you got used by "your project".

[ December 07, 2013, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2013, 08:58 AM:
 
Well Tom. You are entitled to your opinion even if it's stupid. Let's see? Fred posts but I didn't read his post. I ask him about it. He talks about it. I say I am not a fan of long distance. (like you, it's my opinion)

So, where did I fuck up? Leaving TA out of it, for the moment.

Damn! See what I mean? I can't do anything right! Opinions, like assholes, everybody's got one, and I'm down the toilet!

Oh well, have to pick myself up, dust myself off and try again.

Fucking Okies! LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 07, 2013, 09:01 AM:
 
Lonny just went over and read Fred.s post. From what I read the deer was moving when Fred pulled the trigger so it didn't jump the shot just poor judgment..

From what info Fred posted on his cartridge and the amount of correction I ran his load through my bullet drop calculator. I came up with a correction of 4.8 mil vrs. 4.6 mil that Fred dialed in. Not saying one calculator is any better than the other as both are pretty dam close from what I can see.
And since Fred mentioned his system is way better than a BDC dial I don't see how as far as bullet drop goes.
A BDC dial is made up from the info given from a ballistics calculator. In the field all you have to do is range distances and turn dial to what the range finder said vrs. putting info into a hand calculator. Its fine if the animal gives you the time to do so. But they don't always..
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 07, 2013, 09:17 AM:
 
No Tom not really. I just hate hunters that go around wounding shit, guys like Cal put up with it cause they are getting paid, I'm not and don't put up with it... Shooting steel plates is one thing, shooting at a live target is another..

As far as muzzle loaders go there are a few brands out there that shoot pretty dam good and a lot better using them vrs. a 12 gauge slug gun.
I find more dead deer wounded by a arrow more than any other weapon in these parts...

Leonard sorry you got put in the toilet, wasn't my intension...
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 07, 2013, 10:08 AM:
 
Let's see, Tim says hey look at what Fred did. You call him on it cause you don't like long shots yet you admit you've done the same at 150 yards.

Tim wanted to needle Fred and you obliged.

Damn kalifornians.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2013, 10:22 AM:
 
I'll quit when I'm ahead, because you can't fix stupid.

Tim, shut the fuck up! Look at all the trouble you are causing!

Good hunting. El Bee edit:

quote:

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you admit you've done the same at 150 yards.

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what, gut shot an animal because it moved at the last second? Of course, and that was my point! So why risk a shot at 3-4 times the distance? It's a personal opinion, and I don't like to do it unless forced. I tend to think it's unethical on big game especially.

[ December 07, 2013, 10:26 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2013, 10:28 AM:
 
Fucking Tim! Plays me like a damned violin!
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 07, 2013, 10:46 AM:
 
Oh sure blame me for your honesty that got a red flag...

I agree with you as far as big game goes.


 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 07, 2013, 12:12 PM:
 

quote:

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Anyway the report from your rifle must be reaching the deer at that range before the bullet so the deer is what we call jumping the string when bow hunting..

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That statement right there ought to sum up Tim's credentials for anyone who has any doubt. I wouldn't be surprised if the rifle/round in question is still supersonic at twice the range the shot was taken at.

Tom is right. Tim played you, Leonard. He can neither post, nor is he welcome where Fred submitted his tale, but he felt the need to demonstrate his profound understanding and superiority so he sucked you into bringing the discussion here. I'm not disparaging you. It's nice to see someone trying to help the helpless, and we all know you have a soft spot for Tim.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 07, 2013, 12:46 PM:
 
Yeah Jimmy its still moving along at 1800 fps. didn't know that till I looked up Freds load.

As for the other board you are wrong there, I'm still welcomed by many of the members just not the mod's who which happen to be members here.
Though I'm no longer a member there I enjoy reading the stupid shit people continue to do, actually the site is a clone to P.M.
Wonder how many groups or organization's the board has helped since it started or help get certain laws passed in other states...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2013, 01:13 PM:
 
I see the light, Jimbo. Okies can't 'splain shit! He suckered me plain and simple, which is what I am.

But hey, does dickweed deserve to be banned completely and totally from the Internet? Completely? Totally?

I thought I was doing a humanitarian service for the unfortunate dumb as a rock Minneesotans out there. Not you Bearhunter; you're normal.

What should I do with him, he plays me like a damned fiddle? We won't bother with a vote, I know how that would turn out.

Thanks, Tim. Thanks a bunch. And thanks to our loyal members for keeping my ass in line. What would I do without ya?

Good hunting. Aunt Bea
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on December 07, 2013, 01:25 PM:
 
If any fuckstick is wounding 3 deer for each killed he's not a bowhunter,he's a fucking incompetent moron who must not have a mirror.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 07, 2013, 01:45 PM:
 
Why is it that most have to resort to name calling, do you feel threatened or did I hurt your little feelings??? Don't worry I won't hurt you and your feelings will heal.

The members here reminds me of the shit that went down with Bill M. everyone wants to tell Bill how to run his business just like they are telling you Leonard how to run this board..

Some of you act like I'm the only one that's ever been banned from another board and if you look around its happen to most members here at one time or another, if not its cause you failed to stick to your guns and just gave up. There are some of you around as well..
Never in my life seen so many grown men whine and cry like a bunch of babies, you should of seen some over on the Biggame houndsmen board do that. And when they were done whining and got there way only one of them has posted there since...Funny..
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2013, 01:48 PM:
 
I still have time outs in my quiver!
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 07, 2013, 02:39 PM:
 
DIYI, you are correct, I just picked a number but I've yet to meet a bow hunter that hasn't lost a deer or two. No one can deny that bow hunters have a higher rate of loss than gun hunters.

Why does "big game" have a higher value than a coyote?

I'm so sick of "deer hunting" I wish they'd open it for the entire month of November and then get out of my way. Here you need a truck load of corn and a pocketful of money to lease a place to sit and shoot the one you "patterned" with your trail camera. All while I have to wait till season is over to go calling.

Leonard I didn't think I had to draw you a picture.

Ya I might be a little testy right now...
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 07, 2013, 02:49 PM:
 
The thing with bow hunting...and koko can correct me if I'm wrong.

A deer does not bang/flop like usually happens with a rifle bullet. They run off, and bow hunters are not very good trackers, so they lose their animal, maybe within spitting distance of where he lays under some brush. They depend on a blood trail that sometimes does not materialize. And/or snow.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 07, 2013, 02:52 PM:
 
Tom most of us have to deal with deer hunters every season. Had to deal with it when I was in Mo. and now I'm still dealing with it at home. doesn't mean we have to get all testy.

Yesterday had a bunch of coyotes packed up in a section we normally hunt this time of year but the land owners son didn't get a deer over slug season so he wants to go sit in a tree stand with 9 degree temp.s and try to shoot one with a bow. The thing is there aren't any deer in the section, they are across the road. LOL
Coyotes will still be around so just have to wait..
 

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Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on December 07, 2013, 03:12 PM:
 

quote:

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My pea-brain makes me think that at 755 yards and the bullet getting there in less than a second there was no way the sound got there first...

Thought on that from the ballistic experts and math wizzes?

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Meant to include in the previous....

I'm far from either, Lonny, but your assumption is correct. Even the lowly .223 is supersonic to ~700 yards, the bullet will arrive prior to the report well beyond that range, since it takes a bit to catch up. Aiming forward on shots ~300 is only compensating for a bad zero, wind, or poor shooting discipline. A truly ignorant statement.
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on December 07, 2013, 04:15 PM:
 
Tom I hear ya on the 'sick' thing.Tough calling here in my home area til it's all over.Been going months.Tomorrow our rifle season ends-but then opens again at the end of the month for another week of 'road warriors' in their vehicles shooting at everything and going anyplace a vehicle can travel-legal or not.
If I want to call before January I pretty much have to go to NoDak or head west to near or beyond the Missouri River.
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on December 08, 2013, 08:17 AM:
 
"The thing with bowhunting................"

Ok, I'll disagree with the part about bowhunters not being very good trackers. Most `experienced` bowhunters get somewhat proficient at tracking thru trailing good hits and bad. For the record, yes, I've lost animals that I've hit. It's always a bitter pill to swallow.

Weather gun or bow hunters lose more animals, I don't know. I will throw this out for consideration; The ethics isn't in the shot. The ethics is in what you do after the shot. If a rifle hunter doesn't get a bang-flop and says "Don't know how I missed" he may be killing more deer than he knows. If a bowhunter doesn't make every effort to recover and says "It was probably a non-lethal hit & the animal will recover" he too may be killing more animals than he knows.
Sadly, reading sign, tracking and field craft skills in general seem to be declining.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 08, 2013, 08:37 AM:
 
Yeah, but not exactly what I meant. bow season, at least out here and I suspect elsewhere, is early. Lots of gravel, desert pavement and maybe fallen leaves, but stuff that is dark red and brown and blood doesn't stand out.

And, that makes poor trackers out of the best of us, especially with a arrow exit and maybe the animal bleeds internally without dropping a lot of blood for tracking. In any event, if those statistics are accurate, then that's a lot of deer that are never found, for one reason or another.

If a rifle hunter has a runner, that's not nearly as common as with a bow but the advantage is, he has (usually) more blood on the ground.

The only deer I ever almost lost was found by tracking in fresh snow a mile and a half. I would have never done it under most desert conditions.

Good hunting. El Bee

edit: remembering that buck. I saw a vehicle way up in front of me on a gravel road. They had seen us and were waving. They said our deer crossed the road in front of them, obviously injured and we were able to gain on him by just running to the vehicle instead of continuing to track cautiously, thinking we might jump him. LB

edit: but, I consider myself to be a far better than average desert tracker, know a few tricks.

[ December 08, 2013, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on December 08, 2013, 11:28 AM:
 
it happens fred, no matter what the distance, if it makes you feel any better I missed a coyote the other day at 150 off the sticks standing still, don't know what happened but it did, he stopped out at 5 and I killed him, go figure, but I promise you if you aint never missed one one then you aint shot at many

[ December 08, 2013, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: trapper2 ]
 

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Posted by DiYi (Member # 3785) on December 08, 2013, 11:32 AM:
 
[IMG]http:// [/IMG]

I get easy bloodtrails with a bow and rarely any with rifle.(few ever move at all though with the rifle.)This from a 10 pt buck a couple weeks ago.

[ December 08, 2013, 11:38 AM: Message edited by: DiYi ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 08, 2013, 11:58 AM:
 
It's obvious we are on different pages....
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 08, 2013, 01:31 PM:
 
Yep that's pretty much the norm that DiYi posted on a well placed shot with a bow/arrow. But just like Freds little adventure it can all turn south real quick if the arrow misses the vitals.
Most of the dead ones I find have a arrow sticking out of the stomach area (gut shot)and once in awhile I find one stuck in the rump either way they died slowly.
Seen a few deer that someone gut shot and most cases all you have is a greenish colored stomach fluid in a few spots on the ground and then its gone.. The thing about a gut shot deer if the temp.s are above freezing is you can walk a area a day later were deer was last seen and stay to the down wind and be able to smell it.. Whew!
 

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Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on December 08, 2013, 03:41 PM:
 

quote:

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Rifle: GAP 7WSM
Scope: Premier 5-25x56 Gen2XS
Load: 162 Amax @ 2960fps
Temp: 8degrees F, no wind

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I am jealous, that is some fine equipment. My stuff doesn't shoot good enough for me to shoot more than a 300-400 yards, Besides, I'm too much a sissy to hunt in single digit temps anymore.

[ December 08, 2013, 03:43 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on December 08, 2013, 07:26 PM:
 
The speed of sound varies a bit with conditions. But 1,125 fps is a good enough number to work with. Round it up for an easy round number and call it 400 yards per second. Fred's bullet took just under a second to get there. The sound was only about halfway there when the bullet arrived...

- DAA
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 09, 2013, 06:55 AM:
 
Only in the bubble that tim has created for himself can 1125 fps be travelling faster than 2970fps.
And only in tim's bubble can he presume to have more accurate dope data than I do for MY rifle and MY load, shot under MY weather conditions at the time...

For the record, as soon as Leonard started this thread, I KNEW tim the SHILL was behind it. His hateful jealousy has become so transparent that its beyond pathetic...

Figured I could count on the level heads here to see it for what it was, and so thankful to read everyone's replies proved true! To everyone, I very much appreciate that! And that is a testament to you, Leonard, as you keep a fine bunch of dudes around here. Well, cept for one....maybe?

anyhoo, only a fuckstick like tim would turn something that NO hunter wants to have happen into a point of contention. Doubtful anyone here thinks that his motivation wasn't personal...

That said, I won't have anything nice to say about tim anymore. But I did take his advice and got some more practice on game this weekend. 330yd chipshot with the new 6.5 SAUM, dead in the scope behind the lower heavy post...


I'm sure tim will find something wrong to poke at, so let's hear it!

[ December 09, 2013, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 09, 2013, 07:09 AM:
 
Maybe I had reasons?
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 09, 2013, 07:46 AM:
 
giving tim a chance to fail yet another rehabilitation test?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 09, 2013, 09:05 AM:
 
Fred if you go back to my post after Lonny's you see I corrected myself after I ran your dope through the ballistic calculator.

As for your last deer pick I see nothing wrong with it, as that's the way it should be, one shot and a dead deer.

Like I said I ran your dope that you posted, missing a few details but still dam close to your little calculator.

Calculated Table

Range

Drop

Drop

Windage

Windage

Velocity

Mach

Energy

Time

Lead

Lead

(yd)

(mil)

(mil)

(mil)

(mil)

(ft/s)

(none)

(ft•lbs)

(s)

(mil)

(mil)

0 *** *** *** *** 2965.8 2.798 3163.5 0.000 *** ***
50 -0.1 -0.1 0.0 0.0 2879.4 2.716 2981.8 0.051 0.0 0.0
100 -0.0 -0.0 0.0 0.0 2794.8 2.636 2809.2 0.104 0.0 0.0
150 -0.2 -0.2 0.0 0.0 2711.9 2.558 2645.0 0.159 0.0 0.0
200 -0.4 -0.4 0.0 0.0 2630.6 2.481 2488.9 0.215 0.0 0.0
250 -0.7 -0.7 0.0 0.0 2551.0 2.406 2340.4 0.273 0.0 0.0
300 -1.0 -1.0 0.0 0.0 2472.8 2.333 2199.1 0.332 0.0 0.0
350 -1.4 -1.4 0.0 0.0 2396.0 2.260 2064.7 0.394 0.0 0.0
400 -1.7 -1.7 0.0 0.0 2320.6 2.189 1936.9 0.458 0.0 0.0
450 -2.1 -2.1 0.0 0.0 2246.6 2.119 1815.2 0.523 0.0 0.0
500 -2.5 -2.5 0.0 0.0 2173.9 2.051 1699.7 0.591 0.0 0.0
550 -2.9 -2.9 0.0 0.0 2102.5 1.983 1589.8 0.661 0.0 0.0
600 -3.3 -3.3 0.0 0.0 2032.4 1.917 1485.6 0.734 0.0 0.0
650 -3.8 -3.8 0.0 0.0 1963.6 1.852 1386.8 0.809 0.0 0.0
700 -4.3 -4.3 0.0 0.0 1896.2 1.789 1293.2 0.887 0.0 0.0
750 -4.8 -4.8 0.0 0.0 1830.3 1.726 1204.8 0.967 0.0 0.0
According to your post your drop was 4.6 at 750 yds.

By the way where do you think your ballistic calculator gets its information??
JBM calculations is the answer. Most of the soft ware comes from them..

quote:

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His hateful jealousy has become so transparent that its beyond pathetic...

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LOL. Jealous of what, you have nothing for me to be jealous of.

[ December 09, 2013, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 09, 2013, 10:00 AM:
 
Let's see, friends, morals, ethics, respect and acceptance.

That's things you'll never have and that's reason enough for you. Anyone can buy fancy guns and equipment...
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 09, 2013, 10:01 AM:
 
Uh...tim?

Hate to break it to ya, but I know my friggin' dope by proving it from actually SHOOTING the rifle. I didn't have Kenton Industries "custom build" me a BDC turret to wing coyotes off a truck hood with.

You are wrapped up around the axle about saving face now, after being exposed as a hateful SHILL. You're flailing to grab whatever you can to nitpick me about. So, keep proving my point...

More importantly, how bout we get back to explaining how the sound of a rifle blast, travelling @ ~1125 fps, covers ground faster than a bullet travelling ~3000fps?

That was some classicly solid 'TA17' logic!

Can you run JBM to prove that shit?!?!?!?

[ December 09, 2013, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 09, 2013, 10:02 AM:
 
Well, for one thing, he's a hell of a lot better looking.
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 09, 2013, 10:21 AM:
 
Oh, and by the way...

Here's a screenshot of Ballistic AE program running on my iPhone. Happens to use JBM calculations, as if I didn't know that already???



Questions?
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 09, 2013, 10:25 AM:
 
Are those numbers big enough for you to read, tim?

Have you ever bothered to 'prove' your data from JBM like I did?
Or do you take it as gospel truth straight from the computer, and use it to prove yourself an asshat?

You put your trust in taking the life of an animal to the numbers printed on your custom Kenton BDC turret, need I say more?
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 09, 2013, 10:36 AM:
 

quote:

---

Here's a screenshot of Ballistic AE program running on my iPhone. Happens to use JBM calculations, as if I didn't know that already???

---

quote:

---

You put your trust in taking the life of an animal to the numbers printed on your custom Kenton BDC turret, need I say more?

---

quote:

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Have you ever bothered to 'prove' your data from JBM like I did?

---

Yes that's how I had my done. When ordering a Kenton dial you can do it one of two ways just give them the info they need to calculate drop and windage or you can use the JBM program go out and shoot at varies distances using drop sheet and send them what info you have of any corrections made in the field.
The thing is I can use the same dial for another rifle just have to record the difference which isn't much since I use the dial for similar bullet speeds.
As for drop the difference is 1-2 clicks which is added or subtracted from number on dial for every 100 yds... If it didn't work I would be carrying one of those ipods as well or a drop sheet. I'm good to go out to 800 yds....

[ December 09, 2013, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 09, 2013, 10:45 AM:
 
WRONG AGAIN, tim.


See my little dope card taped to my stock?

I print one out for wherever I'll be shooting at. And seeing how that is my 'home turf', I already know exactly when/if to make changes.

I put that screenshot up to prove you wrong (again)
Ballistic AE runs on JBM, only difference is my data output is from PROVEN dope. Not the extrapolated crap you're basing a legless argument on...

Anything else?

[ December 09, 2013, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 09, 2013, 10:54 AM:
 
We could keep playing 'whack-a-mole' all day, if you like...
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 09, 2013, 10:59 AM:
 

quote:

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See my little dope card taped to my stock?

I print one out for wherever I'll be shooting at. And seeing how that is my 'home turf', I already know exactly when/if to make changes

---

Read last part I posted above. I travel to S.D. to hunt and at home, the Kenton dial works in both states and no need for a card..LOL
Its good to know you are all high tech and what not but you are over thinking it..
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 09, 2013, 11:02 AM:
 
"overthinking" as in, thinking the speed of sound is faster than 3000fps?

Or another kind of "overthinking"?


 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 09, 2013, 11:10 AM:
 
I'm just a primitive old fossil. I use a sharpie and write on the stock, (on the other side, Fred) where I can see it.

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 09, 2013, 11:17 AM:
 
Leonard, normally I would too . But the 'right' side of stock has a recessed flush cup installed for sling mounting in that area. Gotta work with what ya got...
 

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Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on December 09, 2013, 11:28 AM:
 
Fred, no argument from me on taking the shot. A few years ago I had a 6x7, 350"+ Rocky Mountain Elk in my x hairs at appx 600 yds. The only reason I didn't shoot was... I had a spike tag. I spoke to a game warden a day or so later and told him basically what I typed above, he chuckled and replied, "I would have done the same thing".
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 09, 2013, 11:52 AM:
 

quote:

---

I'm just a primitive old fossil. I use a sharpie and write on the stock, (on the other side, Fred) where I can see it.

---

That's about all I use the side of my stock for. To let others write on the side of it..
 

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Posted by trapper2 (Member # 3651) on December 09, 2013, 02:46 PM:
 
my guess is fred had more time in practicing that long shot then most guys have practicing 100 yd shots, I would bet on fred hitting a long shot before I would bet on most deer hunter hit one at 200 yds
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 09, 2013, 03:20 PM:
 
Yes, Tim is alluding to the fact that I autographed his stock a few years ago.

Good hunting. El Bee

PS but I didn't charge him!
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 09, 2013, 04:50 PM:
 

quote:

---

Anyway the report from your rifle must be reaching the deer at that range before the bullet so the deer is what we call jumping the string when bow hunting.. So if you try a similar shot in the future perhaps you have to compensate for this by aiming in front of shoulder or neck area rather than shoulder point or lungs.
Anytime I shoot at a coyote that's more than 300 yds I try to aim a little more to the high side and forward, maybe that's what you need to do as well.. later....

---

quote:

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If you can explain that rationally, I will fly out to Minnesota and personally hand you that GAP rifle for a Christmas present!

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And what would I want with that!

[ December 09, 2013, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on December 10, 2013, 05:14 AM:
 
Boy, must be nice to make up reality as you go, and conveniently draw conclusions that are tailor made to fit that dream world...
Usually people who draw conclusions do so based on what THEY WOULD DO in that situation. Makes perfect sense, and easy to see when one is outside the TA17 bubble, lookin' back in...

I'm done with this, and will leave the option open for ya, again.

If you honestly think I'm a loose nut behind the trigger, then put your $$$ where your mouth is and SHOW ME.
Bring whatever ya got to Leonard's Campout, and we'll set up some gallon milk jugs @ 700+ and we'll got shot for shot.
Say, $100 per round?
Every miss puts $100 in the pot, first to hit takes the pot.
If you want me to shoot first, and guess my wind call, that's fine.
Otherwise, you can miss first, then I will take your $$$

Say, ten targets, total?
Got a cool Grand burnin' a hole in your pocket to bet your ever-eroding internet reputation on?

OR, would you rather continue proving yourself a moron on the internet, for the cost of a dial up connection?

Heck, I'd mop the floor with you for free again, but Mr. Coyote already happened. So, this time, your gonna hafta pay to play. And I will need compensated to embarrass you in front of everyone who decides to show up & watch.

So, lets' cut to the chase.

Everyone has enjoyed our back&forth, I'm sure. And certainly, Leonard knew this thread would make for fireworks, can't deny him his entertainment, cuz he pays the bills

But I actually work this time of year, and frankly, I'm tired of arguing with an idiot.

You don't work all winter & all you have to do is snuggle up behind your keyboard and be a dickwad on the internet, til Spring.

That said, I'm done with this thread, tim.

Either PUT UP, or SHUT UP

You can't bullshit a bullshitter, tim. Remember, I'm born & raised in the land of BULLSHIT. Wade knee deep in it, all day long...

So, put your money where your mouth is, or stuff it with a sock.
 

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Posted by Eddie (Member # 4324) on December 10, 2013, 05:21 AM:
 
Been gone awhile I see Tim is still messing with Fred. Fred everyone has had one of them kind of shots where the hit was bad. If they say they haven't then they ain't been hunting. To me that's all apart of hunting, it is hunting not shooting just got to roll with it and learn another lesson from it.
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 14, 2013, 05:57 PM:
 
another TFU: I don't get into it like Fred does shooting steel plates way out there so Fred wins. He does need to work on shooting live targets though.. Perhaps start at 100 yds and work your way out..
but a gem i found on another site:.
by Tim Anderson » Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:34 pm

Thanks.. I got tired of having to drive the ATV down range each time I shot to see if I hit the paper, the gong should save a little time and lower the gas bill. LOL

I have a few of those RxR plates also that I use for water trapping. Will give you a heads up on them though, they are not legal to have or sell as scrap so don't get caught...

looks like meth is really fucking up your memory boy blunder

so Fred is a slob hunter but you admit you have illegal stell plates!!.
oh the discrepencies
spin away Tim

[ December 14, 2013, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 14, 2013, 10:03 PM:
 
Yes I have some of the RxR steel plates with worn out holes and can't be used again. You also forgot to add I got mine directly from the Rail-road foreman as we do work for them all the time..
Nice try dickhead...

And I have some of these as well of which I think I posted here also.



[ December 14, 2013, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on December 15, 2013, 03:07 AM:
 
I don't get into it like Fred does shooting steel plates.
those appear to be steel plates too me

they are not legal to
HAVE or sell as scrap so don't get caught...

spin it anyway you want.
you are a special kind of stupid
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2013, 10:32 AM:
 
This goes over my head? What is illegal, some kind of plate/weight that is meant to drown beaver, or what? Why couldn't you have them? Why are they against the law? Why are they "dangerous"? Must be some kind of Minneesota thing, I never heard of?

could I google RXR plate for an answer?

Good hunting. El Bee
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 15, 2013, 11:14 AM:
 
Leonard its the square steel plate used to hold the rails in place on the ties. People use to go out and steel them and then sell to a scrap dealer so the RXR had some law passed its illegal to have or sell them. Unless you have some sort of paper work to go with them like a receipt of purchase from the RxR or if they was salvage by another company with proper paper work they could be sold by that company as scrap. If someone had some with out proper documentation they could end up paying a pretty good fine. The RxR even goes so far as stamping the plates with a serial number or name of the rail-road... Now you know.. LOL

I have about two dozen plates, all legal like and I use them for drowning sets when water trapping.

Another hot item that's protected by law is underground telephone lines, people would steal them for the copper inside of them.
I did a job up by St Cloud this year and tore out a couple of miles of 200 pr. cable and just placed it off to one side so our dozer operator could pick it up at night and load onto his trailer. He made around 1800.00 bucks on the stuff and it was all legal as the company had the salvage rights to it..

[ December 15, 2013, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on December 15, 2013, 12:52 PM:
 
Try this link: www.treasurenet.com/forums/scrap-metals/243037-railroad-spikes-tie-plates.html

code:

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http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/scrap-metals/243037-railroad-spikes-tie-plates.html  

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