The New Huntmastersbbs!: Dial in or differ the load?

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Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 23, 2012, 03:06 PM:

Alright, I am starting to feel like I might be coming down with something. Have been trying my damnest to go by something Q told me a couple years ago - The best way to get comfortable with 3 and 400 yard shots is to start taking 3 and 400 yard shots. Pretty soon, they'll be no harder to hit than a 100 yarder is now. It's what you're used to. - and have been taking some coyotes at some impressive ranges, even with witnesses.

About a month ago, I was hunting a small local comp with a buddy of mine and I'd successfully f'd up on four different coyotes that day. Knowing I needed to redeem myself in a major way, we were hunting what appeared to be the last setup of the day when he motioned me forward to where he could see up a primo drainage. As I approached, a coyote bumped out at about 350 yard and began quartering away and to the right on the other side of the big valley we were overlooking. He asks me, "Can you hit him from here?" I honestly didn't know if I could or not as it was a fur stretch for me. But, I placed my sticks, sat down, and took a few moments to find the coyote in the scope. Even at 12 power, he looked purty small. He was running at about 1/2 speed up the stair step hillside, so I wagged the range, pulled windage out of my ass and led him about six feet with a good 4 foot holdover before letting one rip. The next few seconds went about like this...

BOOM
.
.
.
.
"Well, looks like you fucking missed hi..."
WHOP!

"Holy crap!!!"
I let Brooks gauge the range after it took us most of twenty minutes to walk from where we were to where the coyote had been standing and he agreed that it was easily all of 500+ yards, with a 22-250 Savage, factory barrel/ trigger.

Well, I bought me a relaoder. Nothing fancy and I'm fixing to work up a load that suits my rifle well. The stuff I've been shooting is grouping 1/2-inch groups at a hundred yards on a calm day, so with those POI's, it's been hard to convince myself to pull the trigger on the homegrown stuff. But, as I've been tumbling brass, measuring and sorting the good stuff from what won't work for me, decapping and learning how to use all the new toys I've got in the shop, I've been thinking. ACtually, I may be over thinking.

As I've said before, my neighbor is a former Army sniper. Between the talks we've had and reading a line of books like Lone Survivor and American Sniper (an excellent read, BTW), I've been over thinking some things.

For one, for now, I'll be hunting both the winter for fun, but always have some work to do in the hot months, as well. Knowing that my POA/ POI will differ due to burn rates, and that I'm using Reloader 15 behind Sierra Blitzkings in 55 grain, would it be easier to work up a good cold weather load now, and a warmer weather load later, and use the load that appropriate for the temps, or would it be easier to dial the scope in and out due to the temps? I'd rather have the loads than screwing with my scope all the time. It's dead on right now for the loads I'm using and I don't like messing with stuff that ain't "broke".My manual shows 3600 fps to be the max load, and I'm used to shooting a round that's chrono'd at 3500 fps at the muzzle. I'd like to keep that speed as I've come to gasped it real well as far as leads at range. Just wanted to hear y'all's thoughts on this.

Tear me apart....

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2012, 03:39 PM:

Just that maybe you are overthinking it, a bit? I know it is hard to read all the pros and cons and all the different reasons.

But, I have never felt a need for cold and warm weather loads. I have one load for each rifle I own.

However, I need to know how it performs in subzero and that it is SAFE in warm weather. In places where I hunt, I can easily see a temperature fluctuation of 85-90˚ during the middle of the day and in the teens in the middle of the night. Come on, do you really think I would change loads and zero twice a day?

But, I always like to be sure where I am hitting and that involves sending a round through a piece of paper or a cracker box once in a while.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 23, 2012, 03:46 PM:

Work up your summer load so you know where your at as far as a safe load for your gun.. Then give it a try in the colder month's and see what it does as far as vel. loss if any and how the bullet performs.. As far as coyotes goes at 200 yds or less you may not have to change a thing as it willbe close enough..
Now if you plan to take some of the longer shots you may have to turn the dials sooner or later so start getting used to it and check your zero often so you can get a pattern of how the gun performs in different temps. and humidity.. I think the super snipers keep a log of this, I don't...
Another thing you could do is avr. out the temp.s you willbe hunting in and do the load work-up dureing the avr. temp for your area...
My avr. temp is around 25-30 degrees and thats when I work up my loads for.. I don't hunt or shoot much in the summer but I do check my loads to be sure they are safe at that time and may reduce it a few grains if I have to shoot a contest..
Running around with two different loads is'nt the safest way to go about it as a load could get misplaced and then found again and you maynot know what it is...
I have a little gun range in the county and just make a habit of stopping by when out hunting to double check my zero as you never know. Some of the guys I hunt with just carry a portable target along and check there zero at least once a week....
Another way to get around the temp. issue is just have two guns, one set up for summer use and the other for winter.. good luck....

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 23, 2012, 04:49 PM:

The good thing is you are already using RL15. I switched to it last year and my summer chrono readings ran 3833fps (10 shot avg) at 90 degress I think, at 50 degrees it was almost the same.

Of course I'm shooting the dreaded 50gr NBT but this year it's going in and leaving a quarter size exit on the few coyotes I've killed and one cat. I sent off for my custom CDS dial with this load info so it has to work now...

But I have noticed conditions other than temp makes a difference so I'm fixing to start playing with Ballistic FTE app for my I phone. It takes current conditions and feeds me numbers.

I know I had too much time on my hands when I was laid up.

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on February 25, 2012, 10:52 PM:

I think you are going to like that app, Tom. I've got something similar on my phone and have used it a bit. The first time you're out and dial in the corrections it gives you and then actually hit something waaaay out there, you're gonna smile. The elevation has been spot on so far, but windage corrections given from whatever source your app uses to determine speed and direction will probably be hit and miss. Might be better in the wide open spaces of OK than it is here with the geography effecting wind so much. The app I use can be coupled to a Kestrel via bluetooth and THAT would be the shit. There are wind meter apps for these damned smartphones too, but I'm not convinced of the accuracy. At any rate, all this technology just amazes me.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 26, 2012, 07:07 AM:

I am no expert by any stretch, but here are a couple of things I believe are needed by long range shooters. A chronograph is mandatory, because reloading manuals are only giving what amount to estimated velocity. I would consider a scope mounted level also.

[ February 26, 2012, 07:08 AM: Message edited by: Rich ]

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on February 27, 2012, 07:29 AM:

I've got levels on my big guns.
I like & use my chrono, but still have to prove/disprove drops at distance. Exbal program has a "Trajectory Validation" feature that will modify the muzzle velocity to match the drops you are actually seeing in the field. The steel plate don't lie... [Wink]

I also gots me a Kestrel 4500, but don't rely on it much for wind. I'd rather take in the conditions a while, then call it...
The 4500 does provide both DA and station pressure (when altitude set to "0 feet"), for data input to your preferred ballistic program. Mine is too old to have the 'bluetooth' upgrade...

Have one load using RL-25 that is safe in summer. Last I checked, I'm losing ~45fps with a 60degree drop in temp for winter shooting. Which shakes out to adding 0.1 mil (one click UP) @ 600yds. No big whoop...

Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on February 28, 2012, 03:39 PM:

Lance,
My Savage Predator likes 35 gr. of Varget under a 55 gr. Hornady softpoint. Shoots around 1/2" and velocity is around 3,550 over my Shooting Crony. I don't hot rod it, as I am more concerned with how well it shoots rather than how fast it is going.

Varget is one of Hodgdon's extreme powders and you will get consistent pressure and velocity when it is cold or really hot.

I usually do my load work up in the late spring and summer and have found that there is very little variance in the groups when I start shooting again in late October.

I have been in the load work up room at Hodgdon, and they actually have a freezer and some sort autoclave thing to heat up the loads to 140 degrees. They go from the freezer/heater to the pressure guns to record pressure and velocity...it is really pretty cool.

[ February 28, 2012, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: booger ]

Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 29, 2012, 10:13 AM:

booger,

I totally agree about the Varget powder.Very consistant regardless of Temp.'s. Seems like that's all I use anymore.It works great in my .17 Tactical and it worked extremely well in my .22-250.I really hope it will work as well in my .22-250 AI.

Good Hunting Chad

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 29, 2012, 10:46 AM:

H414 deserves (at least) a look.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 29, 2012, 06:21 PM:

N-550.

- DAA

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on February 29, 2012, 07:17 PM:

Okay, Varget, H414 and N550.

Why? And why is one better than the other two?

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 29, 2012, 09:59 PM:

22-250imp: N-540, Hybrid 100,, Ramshot big game, N-550..

N-550 canbe pressure sensative in some loadings...

Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on March 01, 2012, 08:51 AM:

Making routine kills at 300-400 yards,indeed takes practice. 300 yards is a good starting point, use the same setup you would use on a stand and see how accurate you and your rifle are. Most folks will find they have no fucking business attempting to shoot that far!
Unless you are shooting a "point and shoot" rifle, you need to know the distance.Otherwise, you are only guessing. Making a bad hit, only to have the animal run off wounded is unacceptable in my book. I see no one mentioned using a laser? And who has the time to range a moving Coyote? Unless you catch one standing out in a pasture or are stalking them etc, putting a laser on them and making elevation adjustments is not going to happen. If you are using a 22-250 with 55 grain bullets, you better know the distance out past 275 yards, if your at + 1" at 100 yards(better to be at +1-1/2"). 50 grain bullets, preferably Nosler Ballistic tips, will do what the 22-250 was intended for, flat trajectory. The 50 grn. NBT kills them just as good. One MUST know the velocity of their loads/BC of their bullets,etc.etc., to accurately use a ballistic program. Don't rely on book values for velocity.
Gary

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 01, 2012, 09:46 AM:

Gary, I use my Leica CRF before I start calling. I make a mental note of "my range limit" and go from there. The CDS dial marked out to 700 yards will be quicker than looking at a chart and dialing MOA when needed.

I've practiced a bit from 700 yards and am not ready for a shot on live targets but as in my running I'm not ready for a marathon either, it takes practice and training for sure.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 01, 2012, 11:09 AM:

All of which explains why some people seek a flat shooting rifle/cartridge/bullet combination. From experience, I limit my shots to what is possible for a couple reasons. But, I also like to hold on fur. This is why I have acquired a few Ackley's. I feel they give me a slight edge.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 01, 2012, 01:44 PM:

Most of the guys that competed in the Mr. coyote constest have no problem hitting a coyote out to 500 yds. I seen some pretty good shooters at both contests that I attended.

Ecept for Kelly, he pussed out on the 500 yd target... [Big Grin]

Edit to add.. Some guys don't realize there are a few short cuts a shooter can take to still be on target out past 300 yds and still make a clean kill....
For coyotes standing side ways you have roughly a 6x14" target to put the bullet in...
With my BDC dial I just take a rough guess with the distance and dial the drop in and then hold the cross-hair even with the top of shoulder or spine. There is plenty of room if you should be off with your bullet drop...

[ March 01, 2012, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on March 01, 2012, 05:42 PM:

quote:
Making routine kills at 300-400 yards,indeed takes practice. 300 yards is a good starting point, use the same setup you would use on a stand and see how accurate you and your rifle are. Most folks will find they have no fucking business attempting to shoot that far!

Isn't that the truth?

I've seen too many missed coyotes at under 100 yards, I don't think 1/2 the shooters can hold 1-2 MOA with factory rifles in hunting conditions at 300.

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on March 01, 2012, 07:31 PM:

You got that right Dan, except I'd up the ante a bit, more like 3-4moa, 3-400 yards is a hell of a long poke. I would guess I might have a shot presented at that range, maybe once or twice a season in Arizona. I see them way past that many times, but of course it's called coyote calling, so they come from out there, to the 40 yard mark, where my feeble eyes and boney elbows propped on my shakey knees are more likely to hit them, rather than just shooting at them:)

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 01, 2012, 10:05 PM:

As Q said, the only way to make long shots is to start taking long shots. That's why I have a few AR500 targets and am finding it a blast to hear it ring.

It can be done.

Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on March 03, 2012, 08:18 AM:

Most ball powders you will find to be more temp sensative than stick types. The extreme powders by hodgons does really work I have found them to have the lowest SD and not very much in temp swings versus other types of powders.

I would invest in a range finder and not go by Kentucky windage. I want more precision than guessing and guessing in more wide open country is far tougher not alot to gauge distance with, get a range finder, as you increase range the smaller your off with your "guessing" the more magnafied the end impact will be.

I want to properly place the bullet as much as I can and a good range finder I have found to be a must for consistant shooting. You can rnage objects prior to calling and know if they hang up at that rock, tree, hay bale etc what the range is or if they are butt sitters you should have ample time to rnage them.

Lastly get rid of the AR and get yourself a nice accurate bolt gun [Big Grin]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 03, 2012, 11:21 AM:

My coyotes won't cooperate! I have to guess at range or let them walk.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on March 04, 2012, 09:57 AM:

Mostly, I just rely on a rifle that lets me hold the same sight picture from 10 yards to 350 yards and hold on the back line if I think they are closer to 400 with no adjustments, no muss no fuss. Just point and shoot.

If they are far enough I have to think about holdover, I usually just don't bother. Especially when using the .17 since it doesn't have a lot of energy that far out. Every once in awhile though, it just feels right or whatever and I'll take a long shot. Usually when they are sitting on their butts facing me and I figure I have a lot of vertical target area to work with. Tipped over both of the ones I shot at like that this year, one over 500 and one over 600 yards. That was with the 6-284 though. Don't think I'd have taken either shot with the .17.

- DAA

Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on March 04, 2012, 11:31 AM:

quote:
Mostly, I just rely on a rifle that lets me hold the same sight picture from 10 yards to 350 yards and hold on the back line if I think they are closer to 400 with no adjustments, no muss no fuss. Just point and shoot.

That is exactly my way of doing things too.

Also, I keep my scope power set on 10 day or night. Never change for brush or wide open. After a while a person gets an idea of how big or how small the coyote looks in the scope in relationship to the range. Your brain gets a mental picture and this comes in handy during the heat of the moment.

One more thing concerning attempting shots at coyotes at 300 yards or more.If I am laying prone, a staionary coyote at 3 to 4 hundred is in deep shit. In my opinion, there is no such thing as minute of coyote.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 04, 2012, 11:33 AM:

cw,

My primary gun is a bolt gun. The AR is essentially a truck gun and what I use when the spot where I'm sitting offers 50-150 yard shots, and not beyond. Beyond 150 yards to "way the hell out there", I carry my big gun and for the record, I'm not new to the game. [Wink]

BTW, the AR is grouping <1-inch at a hundred and barely > 1-inch at 150 so its a solid shooter. Most days, I have the AR alongside the front seat and my .22-250 and 12 gauge in the carrier, grabbing whichever one the particular setup indicates. You've maybe noticed that I don't post as many pics with my guns in them anymore because I really don't want the cybercommunity knowing what I have for irons.

As for the range finder, I have one of those, too. My country very much allows me to sit down and range landmarks, whether it's a fence line, bush, drainage, whatever. I don't usually try to keep track of a bunch of landmarks as much as I range a 200- yard swath across in front of me and remember that and anything inside that line is hold on and anything beyond, adjust accordingly.

The purpose of my initial inquiry isn't because I'm new to calling or shooting. The purpose was because although I do 95% of my hunting in the cooler months, I will get calls when it is 110-degrees and humid as hell from landowners making good on my offer to show up any time of the year to help them with a coyote they want removed in exchange for land access. As a newbie to reloading, I'm reading material citing temperature variations of different powders, and from talking to experts in the field, I'm aware that there will be changes in pressures based on ambient temps and was just looking at whether or not I should have loads specific to summer versus winter conditions, whether that means loading different loads using the same components and varying the powder charge or working up a summer load which will result in a POI to match the zero on my rifle using a different powder/primer/volume combination. I would rather leave the rifle alone and vary loads than be screwing with the zero on my rifle all the time - personal preference only. I'm not concerned with the fluctuations I'll see on any given December day here, from 15- to 40-degrees, as much as I am concerned about variations from hunting in December (30-degrees) versus August (115-degrees), and if history is any indicator, I'll likely be out in both, and in between, ticks, skeeters and all of that. But, thanks for the good information.

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 04, 2012, 11:39 AM:

Good points, Randy. Funny thing that we all gear up with variable loads, variable power scopes, and the like, then as we get experience, we come to prefering everything fixed and tight. The only time I dial my scope down to <10 power is when I'm using my AR in close quarters and I need the wider field of view for target acquisition where, due to proximity, everything is "hold on fur". Otherwise, every scope I have sits on 10X for the same reasons you cited.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 04, 2012, 01:29 PM:

quote:
Mostly, I just rely on a rifle that lets me hold the same sight picture from 10 yards to 350 yards and hold on the back line if I think they are closer to 400 with no adjustments, no muss no fuss. Just point and shoot.

If they are far enough I have to think about holdover, I usually just don't bother. Especially when using the .17 since it doesn't have a lot of energy that far out. Every once in awhile though, it just feels right or whatever and I'll take a long shot. Usually when they are sitting on their butts facing me and I figure I have a lot of vertical target area to work with. Tipped over both of the ones I shot at like that this year, one over 500 and one over 600 yards. That was with the 6-284 though. Don't think I'd have taken either shot with the .17.

- DAA

That there, (and what Shaw says) is exactly how I think. Of course, I don't have to worry about the limitations of a seventeen....since Dave won't sell me his, but I have to have a pretty good reason and a good shot situation, like he says, a lot of vertical target to drop one in. If I don't feel comfortable with the shot, I don't take it. Well, you have to attempt on runners, but that's a different deal.

Good hunting. LB

edit: oh yeah. I do not agree with Shaw about keeping the scope at 10X. I much prefer 5/6 power and if I need more, it's available. If he can do it, great. I'll dance wit the girl what brought me.

edit: sudden thought: if ten power is what you use....why not just get a straight 10X, they are cheaper?

[ March 04, 2012, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on March 04, 2012, 03:38 PM:

Scope power stays low. Power up as needed.
kj

Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on March 04, 2012, 04:15 PM:

quote:
sudden thought: if ten power is what you use....why not just get a straight 10X, they are cheaper?

Not avaiable with the manufacturer I prefer.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 04, 2012, 04:54 PM:

No need to change anything then. I was just yanking your chain anyway. That Mfr you prefer? I forget, starts with an "S", right? Was it Simmons or Sightron, something like that?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 04, 2012, 10:43 PM:

When I spent alot of time stalking and snipeing fox I aways liked to use a var.power scope with a high number like 24x so I can zoom them in and hopefully do a good job of hitting the target. (There pretty small compared to a coyote)

I bought a fixed 10 X some years back and it seemed to be a happy medium for calling coyotes or picking up runners so I stuck with 10x and on some of my Var.scopes I just set them at 10x and leave them there for most of my hunting..
The thing with a var. is you have more power there incase you want or need it vrs. a fixed, your stuck with it.. [Smile]

I thought Shaw was a big user of Swift scopes....

[ March 04, 2012, 10:44 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 05, 2012, 06:14 AM:

quote:
One more thing concerning attempting shots at coyotes at 300 yards or more.If I am laying prone, a staionary coyote at 3 to 4 hundred is in deep shit. In my opinion, there is no such thing as minute of coyote.

WORD

Cdog,

quote:
I'm aware that there will be changes in pressures based on ambient temps and was just looking at whether or not I should have loads specific to summer versus winter conditions, whether that means loading different loads using the same components and varying the powder charge or working up a summer load which will result in a POI to match the zero on my rifle using a different powder/primer/volume combination.

The way I see it is that you've got two options.

One: Develop your load with one of Hodgdon's 'Extreme' powders and don't worry about nuthin'... [Smile]

Two: Use the powder of your choice & develop a good safe load in the hot summer months.
And when I say "good load", not only do I mean an accurate load, I mean a tolerant load as well. If there is any noticeable POI shift or accuracy loss with minimal (0.1-0.3gr) charge wt. variation, then I wouldn't consider that a "good" (tolerant) load at all!

Once' you've got #2 squared away, don't sweat the little velocity loss you'll get during the colder months. At the ranges which the vast majority of called coyotes are shot , an even more vast number of shooters can't hold hard enough on target under field conditions to notice the difference. IE, any POI variation is lost in the white noise of that shooter's ability to hold a group under those conditions...

So then, if you ARE seeing a significant change in POI with nothing more than a temp swing, then shitcan it & start over! No need to tolerate an "intolerant" load...

If I develop a load with temp. sensitive powder my concern is primarily SAFETY & preventing ambient conditions from somehow making that load potentially dangerous. Don't sweat losing a couple fps of muzzle velocity, that is easily accounted for & more than likely not even necessary...
Have fun!

[ March 05, 2012, 06:16 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 05, 2012, 11:10 AM:

I agree with the above, however, have always adhered to solution number two.

I want a load that is safe and accurate in warm weather and in cold weather, like to see where it is hitting the target, wherever I am, under local conditions.

I think this temperature sensitivity issue is far overrated. I have been using temp sensitive loads for years without worry. Is there a performance issue in cold weather? Yes; deal with it, fer cripes sakes. I don't think we need to move to 8 or 10 approved propellants or everything is lost!

Good hunting. LB

Posted by buckhtr (Member # 2854) on March 09, 2012, 09:00 PM:

I believe that to get GOOD at 400 yards you need to shoot 500 not just at 400.AND Yes try H414.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 18, 2012, 10:39 AM:

Let me revive this discussion for a short time. Just to address the previous comment about shooting at 500 to become proficient at 400.

I'm all for practice, but not flinging lead at 500 yard coyotes, if that's the suggestion? If you want to kill gongs at 500 yards, that's good practice, although I'm a little more of a tightwad about ammo and barrel life to do that stuff regularly. If I need to sharpen my skills occasionally, that's fine.

As far as I am concerned, and this is only a personal attitude, I do not want to be shooting at coyotes beyond 400 yards for any reason, unless I just cannot help myself. The exception might be from a very solid rest at an animal that is stationary and can be well marked, if he drops out of sight at the shot.

I suppose everybody has guidelines they follow, or at least, I HOPE THEY DO? Yes, I have made a few shots at 500 yards or so, but I try to not do a heck of a lot of it. The reason is it can be irresponsible and wastes a lot of time retrieving lost animals.

Do we have people that never think twice at banging away at 500 yard coyotes? I'd like to hear what they have to say, and how successful they are?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 18, 2012, 11:13 AM:

Great point, ELbee, and I agree that the best way to get good at X yards is to shoot at X+. My best shot top date was this season at a coyote somewhere around 457-475. Took it only on a bet, basically, and the fact that we were in a comp hunt and empty-handed. I figured that it was an all or none proposition since at that range, a miss is usually well off the mark. As far as routine shots? 400 is about my limit simply because I don't know that my 22-250 has the kinetic energy at that range to do terminal damage to something as tough as a coyote. I doubt it. If the range alone negates the one shot-one kill ethic, I generally consider it a no-go.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 18, 2012, 11:21 AM:

quote:
I'm all for practice, but not flinging lead at 500 yard coyotes, if that's the suggestion? If you want to kill gongs at 500 yards, that's good practice, although I'm a little more of a tightwad about ammo and barrel life to do that stuff regularly. If I need to sharpen my skills occasionally, that's fine.

Practicing on gongs or live targets is part of the learning process if you want to get good at it...I don't like to wear out a barrel anymore than anyone else but most of my guns and cartridges used are very simular in performance so I can just take one of them out to practice with and be good to go with the others...

quote:
I suppose everybody has guidelines they follow, or at least, I HOPE THEY DO? Yes, I have made a few shots at 500 yards or so, but I try to not do a heck of a lot of it. The reason is it can be irresponsible and wastes a lot of time retrieving lost animals.

Do we have people that never think twice at banging away at 500 yard coyotes? I'd like to hear what they have to say, and how successful they are?

For me its how the land is layed out and whats there for available cover or a place a wounded coyote could go to get away if a bad hit should happen, I also look to see if there is enough room for a second or third shot if needed..
I don't lose very many coyotes but the ones I have where shot at 200 yds or less...
If I was hunting in the thick sage brush or what have you I proably would'nt take the long shot just for the sake of what if...
It dose'nt hurt to get out and practice at varis ranges and get a understanding of how your particular rifle performs or how you perform with no wind or a little wind.
If a shooter shooting at 500 yds can't get a consistant group then perhaps he should'nt be shooting that far as he has most likely exceded his limitations...

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 18, 2012, 11:27 AM:

Well, a lot depends on circumstances. Like, do you have a 55 grain bullet loaded in your 22-250? Lighter bullets tend to cause runners. And, is there snow cover for tracking, or is the ground bare and frozen? Do you have a spotter? Are you shooting off a solid and comfortable rest? I was doing some 500 yard screwing around a few weeks ago and the whole time, I was just not comfortable with my rifle resting in the open Vee of the door and a rolled up jacket. What it pointed out to me was that I DO need to do a little more work with the hash marks on the U.S. Optics scope. I'm just not real sure with bracketing the target somewhere between the second and third hash mark. I'm even less confident of dialing it in, so I guess I need to do some range work after all? Previously, I had never tried a shot beyond 250 yards so had no idea what would happen at 509 yards. But, again, a coyote would have been in some trouble since the target was a white rock about 6" in diameter.

And, that's what I mean. Shoot rocks or paper first before taking prayer shots at 500 yards.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 18, 2012, 11:30 AM:

Hmm? So you wait for a coyote to get into your 500 yard kill zone rather than risk wounding on a 200 yard shot? Well, at least you do make some evaluations before banging away, right?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 18, 2012, 12:19 PM:

quote:
I was just not comfortable with my rifle resting in the open Vee of the door and a rolled up jacket

I would'nt be comfortable with that type of rest either and most likely would'nt shoot past 300 yds.. For my long shots I'm laying prone with bi-pods and my left arm tucked up under the butt stock.. I may also use shooting sticks if I have a back rest and feel comfrtable shooting from a sitting position.. In my case most things have to feel right before I pull the trigger...

quote:
Hmm? So you wait for a coyote to get into your 500 yard kill zone rather than risk wounding on a 200 yard shot? Well, at least you do make some evaluations before banging away, right?

Nope.. It mostly depends on the coyote and where its at or where its going.. When calling I try to bring them in to the 200 yd mark, when hunting I just wait for them to stop if possable and when I have a safe shot.
One thing with calling coyotes if I have one that is real spooky I try to get it to come down off the top of a ridge about half way down before I take a shot, this gives me a chance at a second shot if needed.
I evaluate most everything I do in life, you heard the old saying "Look before you jump".. I try to weigh the good and the badd and make my decissions based on that..
As for banging away at a coyote I only take 2-3 shots in most cases and usually thats all I put in the mag...

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 18, 2012, 02:42 PM:

Maybe we agree with something after all? I routinely have three rounds in the magazine and after that, well...he likely is going to get away? But, I'd rather save those rounds for multiples rather than banging away at a coyote doing Mach II.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on March 18, 2012, 03:15 PM:

quote:
I evaluate most everything I do in life, you heard the old saying "Look before you jump".. I try to weigh the good and the badd and make my decissions based on that..

Tim, You either just made that shit up, or you actually do like having everyone on the web chasing you calling you on every post you make. LOL

I will say that as I've gotten more used to my 22-250 and the rounds I've been using, my ability to shoot within a minute of coyote has often exceeded the ability of the gun to "do it's job". With that, I often times find that decision to shoot or not to shoot to be more a matter of whether or not I feel the bullet can deliver enough of a punch to be fatal at that range. We so often hear talk of what bullet shoots best for killing coyotes at distance "X" and ultimately, that dialogue boils down to the physics of kinetic energy. A 40-grain bullet will kill a coyote at specific ranges and velocities, same as any bullet, given the right circumstances. The ethical hunter has to quickly (albeit intuitively) evaluate the combination of bullet size, construction, and its velocity at the range the coyote will be at impact before pulling the trigger, and more times than not, that decision is made before the hunt, and before the season, when you select the bullet and round you wish to use based upon your experience in that area. BTW, Tim says he decides on a shot depending upon the cover where he's hunting. In that vein, I'll take a long shot in fragmented heavy cover long before I'll take the long poke in open country since a wounded coyote seems to run forever where it has no cover to dive into and lay up.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 19, 2012, 12:16 AM:

quote:
Tim, You either just made that shit up, or you actually do like having everyone on the web chasing you calling you on every post you make. LOL

Lance I do evaluate everything before I act and how important it is to me.. The internet just happens to be one of the things thats not very important so I don't worry about it..
Family, hunting, and work is whats important..
Weather hunting , working, or makeing a big purchase I always think ahead of the good things to come and the bad things that may pop up, and being prepared if they do...
A good example is when hunting with the group tracking coyotes through one section to the other in deep snow could take its toll on a guy, someone could slip and break a leg or perhaps have a heart attack. No matter what we are still going to hunt but I plan ahead if a situation like mentioned does come up. I talked with a first responder about this and he gave me a list of names and numbers of other responders that have snowmachines so if someone goes down we have a way of getting to them and getting them out and to a hospital..
Even when I was at a few of Leonards camp-outs in AZ. I had names and phone numbers of people down there that I could call if anything came up..
Maybe thats why some say I'm so negative about things,when actually I'm just thinking them through and they are not..LOL

[ March 19, 2012, 12:40 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on March 19, 2012, 12:22 AM:

quote:
Tim says he decides on a shot depending upon the cover where he's hunting. In that vein, I'll take a long shot in fragmented heavy cover long before I'll take the long poke in open country since a wounded coyote seems to run forever where it has no cover to dive into and lay up.

Lance from my exsperiance I find it to be just the oppisite. A coyote shot with-in close range of the gun tends to take off where a coyote shot at a farther distance is'nt sure which way to go, and most just lay down right there and bleed out rather than run... The main thing is give them a little time just like you do with a deer shot with a arrow...

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 19, 2012, 10:30 AM:

LB, what reticle did you opt for in your USO?

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 19, 2012, 10:44 AM:

It has little marks on it. Some are bigger than others.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on March 19, 2012, 01:20 PM:

quote:
It has little marks on it. Some are bigger than others.

Hey, I have that same reticle in my NF! Thanks for the giggle. Laughing with though, not at. I have asked Fred on more than one occasion what reticle I have. He sold me the scope and does a much better job remembering the specifics than I do.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on March 19, 2012, 01:30 PM:

Yeah, I figured that would knot his eyebrows!

Good hunting. LB

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on March 19, 2012, 04:27 PM:

I have to admit I've done some shooting out to 700 yards on targets and was pretty confident out to 500.

A few weeks ago I had a coyote that just wouldn't come in so I took a shot after ranging him at 501 yards and came up short. He had moved off to 560 or so. I called what I assumed to be the same coyote last weekend and he kept his distance again. I tried him this weekend but instead of trying for a long poke, I came in from behind and used distress instead of vocals. Killed him at 150 yards as he was sneaking downwind. Who'd of thunk it?

It had to be the same one or the story wouldn't be interesting. And I'm gonna need more practice on the steel plates.

Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on March 20, 2012, 05:06 AM:

quote:
It has little marks on it. Some are bigger than others.

Good hunting. LB

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