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Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 19, 2012, 03:52 PM:
Well I finally sent my .22-250 Remington off for a rebarrel. It's going to wear a 25 inch Shilen Stainless matte finish barrel chambered in .22-250 Ackley Improved with a 1 in 12 twist.They said it should be done sometme in June.(worst case)
Bought some Lapua .22-250 brass to fireform and just ordered some Redding .22-250 Ackley Improved dies.
So things should soon start coming together....
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 19, 2012, 04:03 PM:
Good deal.. Are you getting the bushing neck dies????
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on February 19, 2012, 04:29 PM:
Completed by June is perfect for having most of the summer to work up a load and be ready for fall.
What bullet you planning on using?
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 19, 2012, 05:47 PM:
Tim, No I ordered the deluxe 3 die set.
Lonny, Yeah my thoughts exactly.
I'm thinking either the 55 grain Nosler Ballistic tip or the 55 grain Berger Match, And I have some 52 grain Berger Match bullets to fireform with....
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 19, 2012, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 19, 2012, 08:55 PM:
You sending it straight to Ennis, TX or to a smith?
I grabbed mine back out of the safe and thought real hard about having the factory tube punched, just to fire form, then sending it back for a real barrel. But I started hunting with it some and it's back to killing everything I point it at...
Maybe next year.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 19, 2012, 11:04 PM:
Tom,
I'm having Match Grade Machine out of St.George Utah do the work.They've done a .17 Ackley Hornet and a .17 Tactical for me and I've been pleased with both of them so might as well stick with them..Great people to work with and they do great work at a fast turn around....
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 23, 2012, 07:02 AM:
UTcaller, curious as to why you went with 1-12 and not 1-10 or 1-9 to better work with heavier bullets with the AI chambering? I thought most went to AI offerings to better push larger bullets in the caliber? Just wondering.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 23, 2012, 09:02 AM:
Coyote whacker,
I've thought alot about different barrel setups to rebarrel to.I really want to shoot the medium weight bullets with this setup(55-65 grain bullets).And shoot them at a fairly fast speed(3700-3800+ fps)if possible.That was my main reason for this setup. If I would have wanted to shoot the heavier bullets I probably would have went with the .243 win,.243 AI, or 6mm I guess.But I really like what Leonard has said about his 22-250 Ackley and I'm hoping I get the success he's had.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2012, 10:13 AM:
One thing I consider to be valid, the faster twists seem to shorten barrel life and if you don't need it, why get it?
The purpose of the twist is to stabilize the bullet. You can stabilize a heavy bullet in a .224" bore by increasing the twist and dealing with increased throat erosion. Or, in the case with increased capacity when you blow out the shoulder, by increasing the velocity which will increase the RPM, enough to stabilize the bullet.
The reason I get accuracy from a 1X14" twist and a 65 grain bullet is because of the speed; 3925fps from a 28½" barrel. And this is why it has lasted so long.
I think a 12 twist is a fair compromise.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 23, 2012, 12:31 PM:
Barrel wear is caused by a number of things, higher burn rate of powder, bullets with a longer bearing surface, abbrasive powders and heating up a barrel with a long period of shooting..
When you look at a barrel twist rate chart it will give you a few numbers for what weight of bullet you plan to use. A twist rate that falls in the middle of a list is usally your best choice incase you decide later to go to a little heavier or lighter bullet.. Another thing to take into account is the size of case you willbe useing in relationship to the cal. used.. With a case thats at the top end in size you can get by with a little slower twist than whats recondmended due to the larger case haveing a little extra horse power to get the bullet moveing and stablelized as it leaves the barrel..
Useing a smaller case like a 221 F.B. for example you have to stick with the twist that is reconmended for the bullet you plan to use with very little room to go up or down in bullet weight if the weight of bullet or type dose'nt do what you wanted it to do...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2012, 04:32 PM:
I had to read the above very carefully as I thought for sure I would disagree with something. Wonder of wonders, I think I can agree with most of it, without quibbling, although it is worded somewhat different than what I'm used to; I haven't been to Minneesota in a long time and there is a slight language barrier.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 23, 2012, 04:43 PM:
quote:
I haven't been to Minneesota in a long time and there is a slight language barrier.
I've never been to Cali. and I believe your correct.... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 23, 2012, 04:57 PM:
I'm still contemplating a faster twist to shoot higher BC bullets. Range is a given but the wind can be a bugger.
But in a hunting gun, I like ElBees point and shoot method.
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 23, 2012, 05:17 PM:
i was gonna ask the same ? as coyotewhacker but don't have to now. i would personally go with a 1-10
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 23, 2012, 05:35 PM:
I didn't see the need to get a 1-10 twist for 55-65 grain bullets was my thinking. If I planned on shooting 75 grain and up bullets I would have got a .244 cal. Why shoot a .224 caliber at 3300-3400 fps when I could shoot the .244 at 3500-3600 fps.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 23, 2012, 06:03 PM:
"I didn't see the need to get a 1-10 twist for 55-65 grain bullets was my thinking. If I planned on shooting 75 grain and up bullets I would have got a .244 cal. Why shoot a .224 caliber at 3300-3400 fps when I could shoot the .244 at 3500-3600 fps."
----------------------------------------
My thoughts exactly! P.O. Ackley learned many years ago that you can only shoot a certain weight of bullet to a certain speed in any given caliber. If you wish to shoot that same weight of bullet faster, you must shoot it out of a larger bore diameter. There are a growing number of people who are still trying to prove science wrong. Minnesota has a few of those kind of folks, and I do believe that one of em hangs out here. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 23, 2012, 06:12 PM:
A .224 cal 75gr A-max has a BC of .435 the 75gr .244 V-max has a BC of .330
I like the 75 V-max in my 243AI but my 1/9.25 twist still shoots the 105 A-max with a BC of .500
For hunting it ain't gonna matter and I don't even know if it really matters to me but I like the opportunity to shoot the highest BC bullets I can when I'm shooting at range.
I just keep remembering DAA's post of a 1000 round 22-250 barrel that was 1/8 twisted. That's not very rounds for a gun that has to be fire formed as well.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2012, 06:44 PM:
My thoughts, exactly. And, I believe the VLD bullets and high pressures and fast twist are the cause of the short barrel life. I don't have Dan's money so my barrels need to last a few seasons. Another thing, those bullets do not kill well with coyote size animals, they tend to zip on through like a solid. So they tell me?
The trend to fast twists is a little baffling to me? I think it is perceived that fast is better, or something, but it is only a solution if you are driving those long bullets with short bearing surface. Otherwise, standard twists have been around a long time and there is nothing wrong with factory established twists, for the most part. My 25'06 has a 1 in 13 twist and is great for 75-100 grain bullets. The only other selections are 117 and 120 which are really deer bullets and still that twist is adequate.
I do not like 8 and 8.5 twists but that's what I have on the 243AI that Cary Rifle Works built for me. Of course, it's supposed to be a thousand yard target gun but actually, sees more use at night with lighter hunting type bullets. I kinda wish I had requested a 10 twist, to be quite truthful. But, it's okay from the truck, as is.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 23, 2012, 08:04 PM:
quote:
My thoughts exactly! P.O. Ackley learned many years ago that you can only shoot a certain weight of bullet to a certain speed in any given caliber. If you wish to shoot that same weight of bullet faster, you must shoot it out of a larger bore diameter. There are a growing number of people who are still trying to prove science wrong. Minnesota has a few of those kind of folks, and I do believe that one of em hangs out here.
There you go Rich talking about something you know nothing about again...
You can take most any large case and neck down to take a smaller dia. bullet and push it beyond any vel. listings in all reloading manuals.. Rick Jamison proved it many times and believe he holds a few bullet speed records... Most of the cartridge load combo's used is'nt practical for hunting as barrel life is pretty short but can be done none the less..
The bullet design and jacket thickness will determine what bullets will work and which won't at high vel.s and you also have to match the twist to the bullet as well..
Semi VLD or VLD bullets is were you will run into trouble, they are designed only to go so fast then they go poof. Been there many times..
Most VLD won't go much faster than 3500 fps. but in some case they have gone faster till the throat gets a little rough, usually after 200 rounds has been down the barrel..
As for your last remark I have never been a heavey bullet fan, I like to use a weight that falls some where in the middle and shoot it as fast as I can with good accuracy. Example: of the 17 cals they go from 20 gr. to 37 gr. and I use the 30 gr. bullets. They work well for me on fox and Mn.coyotes.. For the 22 cal. you have 35 gr. up to 77 gr., and I prefer the 52 gr A-Max or 52 gr. Sierra. A 243 has bullets from 55 gr. up past 100 gr.'s, I like the performance of the 58 or 60 gr. bullets...
IMO a good coyote killing bullet should be moveing along at a minimum of 3700-3800 FPS. and nothing slower unless you are shooting at 100 yd coyotes...
I have to admitt I would love to shoot one of the 22 cal. heavey weights on coyotes if I could get them to go faster than 3800 fps. and they would come apart inside of a coyote at 500 plus yards, but at the moument its not going to happen..
Bullet design, weight,speed, flight time is what kills more coyotes.............
[ February 23, 2012, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 23, 2012, 09:09 PM:
Those requirements are not difficult, Tim. Except for staying inside, which is not in the cards.
And, why would you need it? I mean, are you so adverse to having two holes in a hide? You know, with the time of flight involved, a coyote can move on you when using a 17 and a bad hit is real trouble with a 30 grain bullet.
I think you are better off limiting your 17 Predator to less than 350, max. Do you have some estimates on results beyond 250? No cripples, no exits, no shit?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 23, 2012, 09:46 PM:
I agree. It's been my experience with the hot 17's that they are an effective and consistent coyote Killer out to 250-300 yards max.
Good hunting Chad
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on February 23, 2012, 10:21 PM:
quote:
Another thing, those bullets do not kill well with coyote size animals, they tend to zip on through like a solid. So they tell me?
Simply not true in my limited experience. I have killed several coyotes this year with a 75 grain A-Max running 3330. All except one have dropped in their tracks and I guess I can't expect to kill one shot in the leg. A few in the 3-400 yard range. Get exits sometimes, some ugly, most not. Definately not anything like a FMJ.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 23, 2012, 10:57 PM:
quote:
Those requirements are not difficult, Tim. Except for staying inside, which is not in the cards.
And, why would you need it? I mean, are you so adverse to having two holes in a hide?
It depends on how big the hole is comeing out. More damage to the hide less money it will bring and more time involved to fix it when I could be doing other things.. A bullet going in and staying inside is putting all its energy there where it should be. A bullet going through and through is takeing some of the energy along with it when it comes outs which can equal some runners and lost coyotes...
Sure everyone gets a bad hit from time to time, it even happens to me. But from hunting with others here at home I see more coyotes run off from bad hits with the larger cal.s than I see from what cal.s and bullets I use and all of us roughly shoot the same number of coyotes from year to year and they just have a higher run off avr. than I do.. Not saying anything I use is better than anothers, just saying I have less problems is all.. Another thing you may not believe is I don't have very many bad hits from year to year, I've been pretty lucky when it comes to shooting coyotes. I don't get excited very much when I see one and I pick my shots when I feel its the right time to pull the trigger.. In a good year everyone here gets alot of practice, some get better at it and some just stay the same..
I agree with what Chad said if I'm useing a 17 rem. but I have taken coyotes with it a little farther out though.. The 17 Pred. I get a little more milage with it and with the 20x47 L I get about the same milage as my 22-250 ackley..
On most of my stands or when hunting I have never felt I was under gunned for most situations.. I guess it boils down to just haveing confidence in my shooting ability and the tools I use..
quote:
You know, with the time of flight involved, a coyote can move on you when using a 17 and a bad hit is real trouble with a 30 grain bullet.
I shoot at moveing coyotes all the time and even when they are comeing in to a call and time of flight is what saved my ass most of the time. Old habbits are tough to break..LOL
To be perfectly honest with you I;m just short of 200 coyotes under the 17 Pred. to date and have only lost one coyote so far and that was with a fireform load I used when in N.M.and Az. for the camp out..
quote:
I think you are better off limiting your 17 Predator to less than 350, max. Do you have some estimates on results beyond 250? No cripples, no exits, no shit?
I've only had two exits from useing the Pred., both shots behind the shoulder and through the ribcage and I had one coyote shot high on the front leg and went through the bone and into the chest, they all died right there.
I've had some run on a side shot at over 300 yds but they only ran a short distance and then bleed out, did'nt know they were dead...
Had a few spinners as well but I've seen the same happen from larger cal.s as well, only difference I noticed is mine did'nt go any farther....
Out of all the guns I've used I'm the happiest with the results I get with it and would'nt change a thing.. Everytime I kill a coyote when I'm with the group all they do is just shake there heads...LOL
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 24, 2012, 01:26 AM:
Wow Tim 200 coyotes with the 17 Predator and only 2 exits,AMAZING!!! I'm assuming that's with the 30 grain golds. I've only shot a few over 100 with my 17 Tactical and can't make that claim with them(the golds).I've had enough exit's and minor damage with them that I've gone back to the 25 grain Berger Match HP's They seem to be alot easier on the fur for me. Sure I have cut my effective killing range down abit, but I still feel very confident in it's killing ability out to around 250 yards.
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 24, 2012, 01:29 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 24, 2012, 06:17 AM:
I suppose I could of said I had 100 exits to make you feel better, but thats not the case..LOL
I've even taken little redfox with it and it works pretty good on them as well..
The 30's have worked out so well for me I never bothered to try the 25 gr. bullets in my latest 17's.. I did try another brand of 30 gr. bullets (Genco) that shot well but did'nt like how they performed on the coyotes and hides.. The Genco's might be a good bullet to use on a 17-204 if I ever have one built....
Other members here have seen some of my shot coyotes up close and can verify what I'm saying, plus I have a few pic.s as well...
Got some snow finally so I'm heading out the door to give the new dog a try... Later...
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 24, 2012, 08:14 AM:
Tim wrote: IMO a good coyote killing bullet should be moveing along at a minimum of 3700-3800 FPS. and nothing slower unless you are shooting at 100 yd coyotes...
What the heck are you talking about?
Your limiting that comment to a small area for sure.
I have shot coyotes with a 22-250 close to 3,700 fps with 52 grain A max's and have made a mess of them and also hit them at longer ranges and do the spin and shuffle with No recovery.
I have shot many with my .243 with 95 nolser bal tips out to 460 yrds and they don't do the spin and shuffle and fur damage for the most part is very minimal, I'm at 2,782 with that combo so your saying not a good coyote gun?
Bullet drop pretty much a constant and a good range finder takes care of that part, windage a differnt game and I will take my .243 over the 22-250 shooting thin skinned bullets any day.
Energy transfer into body mass is a great thing
As you increase range your window of error shrinks, I will take a well built bullet with more down range energy over a speed machine any day for longer range shots on coyotes. Not cats or fox or praire dogs, coyotes.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 24, 2012, 08:25 AM:
"There you go Rich talking about something you know nothing about again."
-------------------------------
Very funny Tim. You don't even realize that trying to shoot a 70 grain bullet out of a .224 barrel and shoot it just as fast as your buddy shoot a 70 grainer out of his 6mm Rem. causes dangerous pressure levels. I think you should listen to Utah caller a little bit before you screw around and blow your gun up.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 24, 2012, 10:03 AM:
Jimanez, I realize that I made a blanket statement and thus you replied: "simply not true". But, all AMax bullets I have seen are just a tipped HP with an insert, like the VMax and I don't think of them in the same category as VLD bullets.
But, on the other hand, I am talking out my ass because I don't use AMax or Berger VLD. Well, I tried some 70 grain Bergers, but it didn't work out too well, but essentially I have zero experience. I am going by what I have been told by people that have used them so is it okay if I just state a personal opinion that VLD bullets are a poor choice?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 24, 2012, 10:06 AM:
Tim the problem with your posting a comment on every thread as a so called expert is that sometimes you put your foot in your mouth because you can't keep all your bullshit straight. With all your running shot .17 kills and perfect shot placement with only one loss out of 200 coyotes killed,and only having two exits in that many kills too,no wonder it's hard for people to take you serious..
On another forum recently you said you get 1 exit in every 30 coyotes killed with the Predator,that equates to at least 6 exits in 200 coyotes. Right? I really don't care about your inconsistencies and claims ,because I have seen from my own experiences that most people are getting more exits than your claims. ,and I've talked to alot of people using this bullet that say the same thing.I know I know, we all just need to learn to shoot as well as you.I am not slamming the effectiveness of this bullet by any means,it is a great coyote killing bullet.Just calling bullshit on your claim that it never exits..
Good hunting Chad
[ February 24, 2012, 10:08 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on February 24, 2012, 10:27 AM:
Apparently I stepped on my dick Leonerd. I put Tom's and your statements together and had A-Max on the brain. You can say anything you please. It's your house. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on February 24, 2012, 11:14 AM:
Oh sure blame me...
Posted by Joel Hughes (Member # 384) on February 24, 2012, 11:26 AM:
Someone needs to start a new thread entitled...
"Things TA17Rem is an expert in"
Damnit Tim, I told you months ago that you need to end every post of yours with FWIW. How else are new readers going to know that YOU'RE ALWAYS FULL OF SHIT?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 24, 2012, 11:40 AM:
Hmm? I kind of like that? When questioned, blame an Okie. FWIW.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 24, 2012, 12:17 PM:
quote:
On another forum recently you said you get 1 exit in every 30 coyotes killed with the Predator,that equates to at least 6 exits in 200 coyotes.
That was just a number I threw out to comfort tha masses. If I would of been honest and said I had only 2 exits then I would of heard the same B.S. I'm getting here from you...
LOL
Did you stop to think that perhaps the guys getting the exits are shooting the bullet to slow and not causeing it to blow up on the inside...
With H.P. I've seen them do three different things. They blow up on the inside and not exit, on some just the tip of the bullet comes apart still leaveing the bullets base and with enough energy exit a coyote, and some just go straight through like a FMJ or maybe takeing bone along with it...
Most of this I've seen done with 52 gr, H.P. in 22 cal..
A 17 cal 25 gr. hornady at times will also do the same..
When I skin out my coyotes I try to recover the bullet or whats left of it to compare to others as far as performance goes and have a box of them around somewhere...
I'm not selling anything so take it anyway you wish... I also never said I was the greatest shot, its just that I don't loose many coyotes no matter what gun I'm useing, just the way it is...
[ February 24, 2012, 12:20 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 24, 2012, 12:27 PM:
quote:
Tim wrote: IMO a good coyote killing bullet should be moveing along at a minimum of 3700-3800 FPS. and nothing slower unless you are shooting at 100 yd coyotes...
What the heck are you talking about?
Your limiting that comment to a small area for sure.
I have shot coyotes with a 22-250 close to 3,700 fps with 52 grain A max's and have made a mess of them and also hit them at longer ranges and do the spin and shuffle with No recovery.
I have shot many with my .243 with 95 nolser bal tips out to 460 yrds and they don't do the spin and shuffle and fur damage for the most part is very minimal, I'm at 2,782 with that combo so your saying not a good coyote gun?
I was refering to varmint cartridges 17 cal, 22 cal.. The 243 is a deer cartridge.. I don't use one for coyotes but my friends do and its a hit and miss no matter what bullet you use in them as far as hide damage goes..
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 24, 2012, 12:34 PM:
Just for shits and giggles here are some coyotes taken with the 17 Pred., if you look closely you can see they are not all shot up in the ass or have any holes or blood all over... Got plenty more of the same.. LOL
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 24, 2012, 01:40 PM:
What the hell does that picture prove? they could have softball sized holes on the other side if all I know, Duh ...
As far as the speed goes i was shooting the 30 golds 3950+ fps i'm sure you're not running them much faster than that. Maybe 100 fps faster..And nobody else is making the NO exit claims that you are.
And bullshit that you aren't claiming to be a perfect shot.Whenever someone questions you on anything thats the first thing you say is it has to be they need more practice shooting...
Heaven forbid it's because you're full of shit......
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 24, 2012, 03:36 PM:
F.W.I.W.. i just recently had a 17-204 built which is abit faster than the 17 pred. shooting Chan Nagels 30's i have had TREMENDOUS luck with them.maybe 40+ coyotes killed and so far only 3 exits and only 1 was bad. i can honestly say it kills coyotes better than my 250's and 243 as long as they are solid chest shots. up the ass runners,not so good.
and what a pleasure to skin
edited to add:. tim, i see blood on the hind leg,2nd from right
[ February 24, 2012, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 24, 2012, 04:16 PM:
quote:
What the hell does that picture prove? they could have softball sized holes on the other side if all I know, Duh ...
Yeah and the snow around them would of been all bloody as well...You should get out more....
Yes Bear and its got alot of blood around its head as well. (head shot)
Pretty nice looking coyotes that are not all bloodied up from laying on top of each other in the back of the truck would'nt you say....
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 24, 2012, 04:37 PM:
Tim,
Don't worry about me getting out, I get out plenty. And do manage to get a few coyotes in the process. lol
Here's some perfectly placed shots with the .17 Tactical using 30 grain golds NO FUR damage and no exits......
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 24, 2012, 04:39 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 24, 2012, 07:52 PM:
Nice coyotes.. I knew you could do it...
What do you mean by perfectly placed shots????
Is your shot placement any different with another rifle or cal.?????
[ February 24, 2012, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 24, 2012, 08:16 PM:
Actually Tim, I just used that Photo to show you that a picture can be deceiving and it doesn't really prove anything.Those Coyotes were actually shot with a .22-250 and 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips and were pretty messy on the other side with exit wounds,but you can't tell that in the picture. lol ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Good Hunting Bud.... Chad
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 24, 2012, 08:40 PM:
If you had a little snow on the ground it would of given some away.. Hey!! Just for you I'm going to take pic.s of both sides of my coyotes, not that it would make any difference...
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 24, 2012, 08:52 PM:
I actually had a few.. How is this one???
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 24, 2012, 09:18 PM:
"I actually had a few.. How is this one???"
-------------------------------------------------
Perfect example of what happens when you choose light and frangible bullets for coyotes. I had that happen, and quickly learned to use a good strong bullet for coyotes.
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 25, 2012, 07:58 AM:
I was refering to varmint cartridges 17 cal, 22 cal
Tim and a coyote is not a varmint!!!!! When they built these bullets they where in place for prairie dogs, groundhogs, ground squirrels and the such not coyotes. People took them onto the coyote realm.
.243 hit and miss no matter what bullet you use in them as far as hide damage goes
Tim that is the key to any bullet!!!!! Called shot placement, doesn't matter your .17 predator or my .243 all about shot placement your off you get bad results I'm off the same, except for mine will result in more stone dead coyotes in the end at extended ranges.
Tim if I do my part with the .243 and my 95 noslers, it isn't hit and miss at all they are reliable coyote killing bullets with little damage. They might just leak a little more blood but they sure don't go anywhere and the damage results are minimal.
All about jacket design and energy transfer.
Your bullet splash photo is common of a frangiable bullet, I can gurantee you I have never seen this with a 95 grain nosler on a coyote because of jacket design. A max's out of a 22-250 do the same thing on dead center shoulder hits. 70 grain bal tips out of a .243 same thing, different jacket than the 95's.
[ February 25, 2012, 08:25 AM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 25, 2012, 08:17 AM:
Tim I have shown these before on another sight you can see the differance in jacket design and for Coyotes why I favor the hunting jacket more so than the varmint jacket.
Varmint jacket:
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 25, 2012, 08:30 AM:
"Your bullet splash photo is common of a frangiable bullet, I can gurantee you I have never seen this with a 95 grain nosler on a coyote because of jacket design."
---------------------------------------
Elbee,
Give Coyote Whacker an A for that statement. It is all about the bullet, and placement of same. I have not yet figure out the answer for red fox or bobcats except maybe moving down to a .223 with a good strong bullet, but for coyotes, if you choose the right bullet even the mighty .25-06 can be fur friendly. I seem to have found the perfect coyote bullet for coyotes with my .257 Roberts Improved, which shoots very close to same velocity as a .25-06. Several years back, I couldn't readily find my favorite 100 grain Sierra "Game King" bullets, so I bought some 100 grain Sierra "Pro Hunter" bullets, which my .257 Improved was shooting at 3250 FPS. I have killed quite a few coyotes with that bullet, and absolutely zero fur damage.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 25, 2012, 10:20 AM:
quote:
Perfect example of what happens when you choose light and frangible bullets for coyotes. I had that happen, and quickly learned to use a good strong bullet for coyotes
Rich both coyotes in the pic. where shot with a 20 cal. 40 gr. Hornady V-max at 4000 fps... The other coyote just had a little 20 cal. hole going in and nothing comeing out.. With this bullet its pretty much 50/50 on fur damage.. I don't have much of a choice for bullets for the cartridge I'm useing them in at the moument so I don't use this gun as often....
My primary rifle is the 17 Pred. with 30 gr. golds, strong enough to penatrate yet fragile enough to stay inside the animal..
quote:
Tim that is the key to any bullet!!!!! Called shot placement, doesn't matter your .17 predator or my .243 all about shot placement your off you get bad results I'm off the same, except for mine will result in more stone dead coyotes in the end at extended ranges.
Yes I agree about shot placement and I have been off a bit with my 17 and still get a dead coyote and hide damage is pretty much zero.... Thats why I still use it....
If I get a coyote that is beyond what I think the range is for my 17, I either pass on it, call it closer, or get a bigger gun. Usually have 2-3 of them in the truck and use them according to what the conditions are from one area to the next and also how the coyotes are responding to a call... I have some areas that get called alot and usually have a few coyotes that are still around and will respond to a call but will only sneak in so far and I usually have a larger cal. rifle along for those...
quote:
Your bullet splash photo is common of a frangiable bullet, I can gurantee you I have never seen this with a 95 grain nosler on a coyote because of jacket design. A max's out of a 22-250 do the same thing on dead center shoulder hits. 70 grain bal tips out of a .243 same thing, different jacket than the 95's.
Yep I agree. Your right except its the other way around with them, just a bigger hole comeing out..
Roede mentioned to me once that he also gets splashes with his 22-250 useing the the 52 gr. A-max on head on chest shots.. I use the same bullet in my 22-250 ackley at a faster speed and the only time I see or get damage is if I hit them high along the spine or in the shoulder ball/socket. Chest shots or behind the shoulder they work well for me.. (shot placement)
quote:
I have not yet figure out the answer for red fox or bobcats except maybe moving down to a .223 with a good strong bullet
For best results you need to get the vel. below 3200 fps in a 22 cal.
or use a 17 cal. with 20 gr. h.p. up to a 30 gr., and no plastic tip bullets....
quote:
if you choose the right bullet even the mighty .25-06 can be fur friendly.
quote:
.257 Improved was shooting at 3250 FPS
Can be said about most cal. used..
Yep shoot them slow enough to stay inside and you will have minimum to none for fur damage.
IMO though any hole comeing out of the fur that is larger than a quarter is fur damage..
Most of you are just out looking to kill something Vrs. I'm after the hide and a dead animal so I have to be more selective in what cal. or bullets I use...
coyote whacker thanks for being cival, I new you could do it if you tried..
I agree with most of what you said, and makes good sense if I was just out to kill coyotes, but as I said I'm into it for more that that.... Good hunting....
Leonard you get that check sent off yet??????
[ February 25, 2012, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2012, 11:10 AM:
I did, but it came back? I addressed it; "TA in Minneesota" don't know what was wrong, them govment workers get lazier every day.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 25, 2012, 11:59 AM:
"Can be said about most cal. used..
Yep shoot them slow enough to stay inside and you will have minimum to none for fur damage."
--------------------------------------
Timmy,
3250 fps is not slow for a 100 grain bullet out of a quarter bore. I guess that you will next suggest shooting the 100 grainer out of a .17 caliber, like maybe a .17/284? Wise up my boy, buy a real coyote rifle. If your buyer is docking you for silver dollar sized exits, he saw you coming.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 25, 2012, 01:40 PM:
That's why for a fur gun that is used for 250 yards and under I have TOTAL confidence in my .17 Tactical and 25 grain berger match bullets running 4100 fps.(day stands). If I'm shooting coyotes and not to worried about the fur I'll shoot this new .22-250 Ackley Improved with 55-65 grain bullets at 3700-3900 fps and I should be fine out to 400 yards plus alittle.
As far as fox go,I'll reach for my .17 Ackley hornet and 21 grain Kindlers or 20 grain Vmax at 3800 fps. Evertime.
I'll be Damned if I need to shoot a Quarter Bore at Coyotes at 300 yards and under....lol
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 25, 2012, 05:56 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2012, 01:59 PM:
I have done that a time or two. Two halves, or at least you can't drag the front legs, or the back legs without leaving the other half behind. I'm not kidding, a bit.
Good hunting. El beebo
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 25, 2012, 03:26 PM:
Tim NO need for another gun just shoot the one that will be more efficant across a broad range of shots on COYOTES!
Tim off center shots remain around that quarter sized hole you speak off and any exits in the pocket are in that range.
The only time I get a real mess is no different than a "zipper" cal that is low and in the stomach. Very few of them so I don't worry.
You should try a .243 with the bullets in mention at the speeds I'm using them at and then tell me what your results are. I think you would be surprised, I started out wanting a very high killing gun and messing around with different bullets I found one that does both to a degree in which is more than ample for my needs. I could sell the highest majority of that fur for sure.
Rich I to used my 25-06 on a few coyotes and using the nosler accu bond did a bang up job on most of them but wanted less recoil and slightly lower relaoding cost so a short action .243 has been my favorite coyote gun.
I was running those at 2950fps again most of the exits where very good.
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 25, 2012, 03:33 PM:
If you are looking for a cartridge that is fur friendly and works equally well on coyotes, fox, and cats...well you are gonna have to give up something. Whether it be reducing the range of shots, sacrificing odd angles, or just plain old shoe leather used up while tracking runners...something has to go. Kinda like buying a 3/4 ton 4 wheel drive truck and expecting good gas mileage. Aint going to happen.
Based on my experience and attempting to save fur it requires 2 different cartridges.
For cats and fox, it is the 17FB shooting a 20 gr. vmax over 4000 fps. Day or night. Range 150 yards or less. For the most part, this is not a problem because the terrain and the animals dictate the shot will be within those limits. Generally no exits and sometimes you have to shake the animal to determine where it was hit.
Definatelly not a coyote round in my opinion.
For coyotes it is the 22/250 AI shooting the 55 gr. Nosler a little below 4000 fps. Half dollar exits are very easily managed. I dont mind them and neither do any of the fur buyers I deal with.
This cartridge still results in a dead coyote with thin hits, odd angles, bad hits, and will shoot through a little bit of brush. And I feel confident it will work out to 500 yards if I can hit them.
So basically, I am not giving up a thing with either of these two. I hunt areas where coyotes are practically nonexistant so the choice is easy in those situations. However, if there is any doubt, I will err on the cannon side and take my chances on the fur.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 25, 2012, 04:52 PM:
"Rich I to used my 25-06 on a few coyotes and using the nosler accu bond did a bang up job on most of them but wanted less recoil and slightly lower relaoding cost so a short action .243 has been my favorite coyote gun."
-------------------------------------
I have often stated that if I was doing it all over again, I would buy a .243 for coyotes. It is a very good choice. I had a couple of bad experiences with the .22-.250 in the high winds of north central Nebraska and north Texas. On one occasion I aimed at rib cage of a 240 yard coyote and blew the top of his head off. I had my first .25.06 built, and never looked back. Never but never shoot a coyote with 85 grain Nosler ballistic tips out of a hot loaded .25-06 if you plan on skinning it. LOL 90 grain Sierra "Game Kings" and 100 grain Pro Hunters, along with the 100 grain Nosler ballistic tips do a good job though.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 25, 2012, 05:54 PM:
Ahhh save those quarter bores for the Praire Goats, and Mulies/Whitetails..
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 25, 2012, 06:17 PM:
"Ahhh save those quarter bores for the Praire Goats, and Mulies/Whitetails."
---------------------------------------
I would consider it if I didn't love the quarter bore so much, and if YOU would save those needle guns for the pocket gophers and prairie dogs they were intended for.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 25, 2012, 06:36 PM:
And I to would leave the needle gun home if they didn't kill coyotes so damn well.....lol
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 25, 2012, 06:45 PM:
Chad,
Fair enough, I at least know that you speak from REAL experience.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 25, 2012, 06:52 PM:
quote:
You should try a .243 with the bullets in mention at the speeds I'm using them at and then tell me what your results are.
I have tried a couple of 243's in my time and a few of my friends still use them...
If most of my shots could be kept under 150 yds. I would proably go back to useing one but I'm not that good of a caller.
I still have one of my 243's but like the results I'm getting with what I have now and if I ever decide to build another it would be another 17 Pred. or 17-204.. Like I said I'm not getting very many runners or cripples so why change what is working for me...
My old 243 win. rifle.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Guns/000_0028.jpg[/IMG]] 
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 25, 2012, 07:04 PM:
Tim. that is one UGLY stick ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 25, 2012, 07:15 PM:
Shit, it looks like a '03 Springfield?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 25, 2012, 08:45 PM:
correct Leonard..
It maybe ugly Bear but it will shoot a nat off your azz anytime of the week.... http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Guns/IMG_1870.jpg[/IMG]] 
[ February 25, 2012, 08:49 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 26, 2012, 03:03 PM:
Tim how many hunts has the railroad tie stock been on for coyotes?
I can get darn close with my savage factory .243 and handloads, minus the butt ugly stock.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 26, 2012, 03:34 PM:
I bought the rifle cause it was cheap and was going to part it out if it did'nt shoot.. You've seen the target and groups it shot so I kept it in one piece..
I attached a bi-pod to the stock and carried a few pieces of foam insulation wrapped in tape for shims and then just set up on a small hill close to the road... Since then I picked up another ugly stock for it but more on the slim side and more managable to carry.. Still have the gun but did'nt like how it worked on the coyotes so I retired it...(to big of a cal.)
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 26, 2012, 05:48 PM:
Thats because you where speed burning a varmint bullet out of it
All you would have needed to do was SLOOOW down and pick a better bullet and OH yeh ange out that god ugly stock for a hunting stock ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 26, 2012, 06:02 PM:
Don't nobody never call my Mini-14 ugly again. NEVER!!!
Mr. Coyote........last year.
Mr. Ugly Gun......this year.
I can hardly wait to see what next year brings.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 26, 2012, 10:50 PM:
Ugly, yeah. But the reason you use it is because of it's fine accuracy. Right, koko?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 26, 2012, 11:20 PM:
quote:
Thats because you where speed burning a varmint bullet out of it
All you would have needed to do was SLOOOW down and pick a better bullet and OH yeh ange out that god ugly stock for a hunting stock
I tried all kinds of bullets they had available at the time from 60 gr. up to 87 gr. and did'nt have enough twist for 100 grain bullets..
More speed less hold over..
Maybe some day I'll go through my hunting loggs and make up a list of bullets I've used and there results, they go back as far as the early 80's. Everything from FMJ-H.P.- S.Pt.s, lightest weight available to the heaviest weight each gun would shoot...
I'm glad you are getting the results you want from the bullet you are useing but at the moument I don't have any future plans to build any guns bigger than 22 cal..
Also Glad that Chad is going with the 22-250 imp. and the 55 gr. bullet, it should work pretty good at longer ranges...
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 27, 2012, 03:40 AM:
what hold over Tim? Todays reticals and speed turret systems one doesn't worry about holdover, again bullet drop is a constant easier to deal with than wind drift, higher BC bullet the less the wind effects it at longer ranges.
Range finder and bal chart makes drop far easier. 500 yrd shot turn knob to 10 and have less wind drift.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 27, 2012, 06:39 AM:
El Bee;
Fine accuracy??...........No.
But for the stands that I make and the usual shooting distances I deal with, it's accurate enough.
Don't get me wrong; I have a great deal of respect for those with the equipment and the skills to make those long range shots. So, it comes down to the question of what's accurate enough and is the return worth the investment of time & effort?? (and $$). For me, anywhere in the lungs out to about 125 yards and good enough is good enough. Then, rather than spend time trying to shave a 1/16th of an inch off of my groups I have the time to go fishing or partake in spectator events that involve a brass dance pole. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 27, 2012, 09:23 AM:
I agree, but at the time I was shooting my ugly gun none of that fancey stuff was around yet..
If you would of looked closer at the rifle pic. you would see that the rifle is sporting a Simmons target scope, fixed 24X with target knobs....
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 27, 2012, 11:13 AM:
Really? I thought it looked like a paper towel roll, painted black?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 27, 2012, 02:16 PM:
"Range finder and bal chart makes drop far easier. 500 yrd shot turn knob to 10 and have less wind drift."
----------------------------
Wow!!!! Hey Coyote whacker, where can I buy one of them there knobs that I can dial to 10 and turn down the wind velocity? Zero wind drift would be nice.
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 27, 2012, 02:46 PM:
LOL Rich, I meant on the scope not turning down the wind, but you gave me something to shoot for in a future product, a wind limitng machine should sell like hot cakes hey?
Tim I wouldn't consider a fixed 24 power an ideal hunting scope
LB is dead on, a paper towel roll has about as much use as a simmons scope
[ February 27, 2012, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: coyote whacker ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 27, 2012, 02:53 PM:
Icon 1 posted February 27, 2012 02:46 PM Profile for coyote whacker Edit/Delete Post LOL Rich, I meant on the scope not turning down the wind, but you gave me something to shoot for in a future product, a wind limitng machine should sell like hot cakes hey? [Big Grin]
Tim I wouldn't consider a fixed 24 power an ideal hunting scope [Razz]
------------------------
Oh, ok Coyote Whacker, I stand corrected on the wind drift issue. Now regarding a fixed 24 power scope, I don't know of anyone in their right mind who would use one for calling. OHHHH Sheet, you were speaking of Tim A. Now I understand.
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 27, 2012, 04:43 PM:
well with a wind mate wind checker one can figure out drift half way decent for longer shots and dial and smile in your wind drift as well.
That is why at 600 yrd or 1,000 yrd bench rest those devices are not allowed. Touhest thing with wind is angle and what is the wind doing at 400 yrds or 500. Yet with a wind meter one can make live easier for sure. Elevation and windage turrets can be found on many brands.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 27, 2012, 05:31 PM:
The Simmons scope was used just for range work and I use Leupold and super sniper scopes for hunting and have them set on 10x, some fixed power some varible.
You don't need a wind meter for shots out to 800 yds. to kill coyotes. All you need to do is either shoot the rifle at varis distances with different wind speeds O-5-10-15 and make note of the corrections or just run your load through a JBM calculator and go hunting...
Anything past 800 yds is when it gets tricky and you would need the special tools..
[ February 27, 2012, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 27, 2012, 05:44 PM:
and you shoot how many coyotes out to 800 yards?? LMFAO
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 27, 2012, 07:39 PM:
Tim what good does it do to shoot in wind if you don't know what the wind is doing when your out in it? You that good you can tell within 5 mph of what a given wind speed is? so you can tel the differance between 10 and 15 mph or 12- 17?
you do relise what the differance in wind deflection of a 55 grain V max at 500 yards is going from 10 mph to 14mph do you not? Big enough your going to miss a coyotes flat out.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 27, 2012, 08:12 PM:
I just go by what the weather stations gives for the area I'm hunting at the time. Most days they are pretty dam close or should we say close enough for coyotes... If I miss a shot so what, just shoot again. Its not the end of the world or the last coyote I'll ever see..
If you want to get into that precision stuff then have at it,I'm not trying to stop you....
I don't like to drag all the extras along so I just make due with what I got or know...
When out calling I don't get many shots past 400 yds as I try to call them in a little closer..
At home hunting with the crew I don't get many shots past 600 yds. for varis reasons. "Safety", or there is already a tracker close by moveing in for the shot...
If your not aware Kenton also makes a windage dial for what cal. you use with wind speeds calculated in.. Leupold also has the windage dots in its Var. scope reticle which I have found to be close enough for coyotes...
[ February 27, 2012, 08:23 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 28, 2012, 03:52 AM:
Tim you need to hunt longer in SD where the wind changes about as much as the temps. Odd days where you have calm or anywhere near steady winds for sure.
I agree no bid deal in most cases at 200 yrds or less but as you increase range even a 3 mph change can lead to large variances in wind deflection and I pesonally "HATE" to miss a coyote I have worked for, doesn't state I don't miss but take more time and consideration as the shots get longer, many of those long shots afford you that time, might as well take advantage I say.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 28, 2012, 11:40 AM:
quote:
Tim you need to hunt longer in SD where the wind changes about as much as the temps
Tell you what next time you chat with Roede have him tell you what its like were I call.
I usually plan my trips and watch the weather for the area I call in real close for a week prior to leaveing... It just common sense to plan my hunts around the days with no wind or very little. Once out there I then watch the weather before leaveing the hotel to get wind direction if any and the avr. speed and then plan what areas I will call in.... If the wind speeds pick up then I just go deeper into the drainages... I've learned how to work around the wind if I have to and don't worry much about or what my bullet willbe doing down range...
I agree with you and don't like to loose any coyotes as well and I usually don't, and I also don't take too many low percentage shots either.. So much easier to just work around a stubburn coyote and get it to were you can make a shot on it.. One of the things I picked up from Roede and one of the local ranchers and has worked well for me is if you don't have the shot just let it walk and come back after it at another location or time.. It works!!!!!
Most of my long range shots are taken at home if I get the chance, if I blow a shot its no big whoop as my coyotes are spooks to begin with and nothing changes...Most don't live long enough to see the next day anyway...LOL
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on February 28, 2012, 11:51 AM:
Tim SAY'S: Most of my long range shots are taken at home if I get the chance, if I blow a shot its no big whoop as my coyotes are spooks to begin with and nothing changes...Most don't live long enough to see the next day anyway...LOL
or the other side of the section line
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 08, 2012, 03:57 PM:
Well I got the .22-250 Ackley back from Match Grade Machine, and the scope mounted . I Loaded up some bullets to fireform and did alittle shooting.Man if the fireforming loads are any indication,I think it's going to be a great shooter. I'm Running 60 grain bergers about a grain over max(standard .22-250 load data)with Varget.And they are shooting alittle over 1/2 inch groups. And running around 3650 fps. I'm going to try some H414 next. But Over all it's looking promising...
Good Hunting Chad
[ June 08, 2012, 05:45 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 08, 2012, 08:03 PM:
I think you will LOVE it! I also think you can get more velocity, especially with H414. I'm not suggesting that you will see performance comparable to what I get, but I am betting that you will see something on the order of 3750/3800fps, with good accuracy.
DAA has been talking about a VV powder, forget which one? Maybe it is a better temp sensitive choice, I don't know. What I know is that H414 has been a great choice, for me and I have no desire to find out what I could do with something else. Because, I'm happy, case closed.
My load is exactly 44.0 grains 65 grain bullet and a Fed 210Match primer.
Good luck, El Bee
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 09, 2012, 10:37 AM:
My 12T .22-250AI isn't much of a velocity machine. I was hoping for more when I had it built and tried a BUNCH of powders in it looking for "the one" that would unlock big chrony numbers. Just not meant to be with that barrel. The best velocities I ever got out of it (using "sane" loads...) with 60's weren't quite 3700 fps, a solid 3800 for 55's. 27" Lilja, BTW.
But, by happy coincidence, the powder that did give the best velocities with 55 and 60 gr. bullets also gave the best accuracy. So, the working load for it has been with N550 and 55 Vmax, at 3800 fps. Which is a warmish, but not "hot" load, primer pockets last pretty long, but certainly not forever. Accuracy is tremendous though. Genuine .350 MOA when new (average for 5, five shot groups, shot one after another without cleaning), sub .5 MOA, even still with about 1600 rounds on it and the throat starting to look pretty ornery.
While I have killed a few coyotes with it once in awhile, using the old Starke 60's, it's primarily, actually exclusively anymore, a 'chuck rifle and hasn't been fed anything but the 55 Vmax for years. Many 500+ yard kills on 'chucks with it. A few over 700. Going to dust the cobwebs out of it next weekend and whack a few dozen with it, should be fun.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 09, 2012, 11:46 AM:
Yeah, funny how that works. I have been a little disappointed in the velocity I get out of this 22/243Middlested at around 3810fps or so, but it's better than a half inch barrel and good enough for whacking coyotes out to at least 300 yards daytime, maybe more, if I feel lucky? It's finished at 26" and a 6 grooveHart, same as my hotrod 22-250AI, which is 28½". Also a bit knarley, but it still shoots accurate without seating it out past the magazine length.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 09, 2012, 12:21 PM:
Dave,
I'd be lying if I said I haven't worried about the whole Velocity deal.lol
I really hope I can get what I'm expecting. I would be happy if I could get 3700-3800 fps with the 60 grain Bergers,and extremely happy if I could get those speeds with the 64 grain Bergers. But I guess we'll wait and see. For right now 3600 fps with the 60 grain Bergers will have to do( My fire forming load)
Maybe that H414 will be the magic potion for my gun too Leonard.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 09, 2012, 12:27 PM:
I'll say one thing. I do not, (and never have) loaded hot. This is why, in a little more than ten years, I am still on my original 200 cases for the 22-250AI. Of course, I'm down to about 140 now, but most of that attrition is from hunting at night, and it's hard to keep track of your empties when they are running hard.
I have had a little experience, very little, with dumping powder in an action and it wasn't my handloads. I bought a 6-250Ackley from a friend and used his handloads which worked fine except one time I extracted a round and left the bullet in the lands, dumping powder in my trigger and action. It's amazing how a little grain of powder can keep the bolt from closing or even preventing the firing pin from falling, or trigger from working the sear. You really have to do an especially good job of cleaning, especially when I didn't have compressed air available.
I do not like seating into the lands and I do not like hot loads, at all. I do not look for trouble. I know a guy, he's dead now, RIP that used to shoot a very accurate 220Swift and would be looking at pierced primers and split necks after two loadings, no more than four. Damn, he killed a lot of coyotes with that gun, made by the same guy that did my 22-250Ackley. That guy still gives me a hard time about 220Swift, confusing me with Rick, for some reason? We both shot Swift's and both went to Redding for a rebarrel, but I asked for (and got) a 22-250AI while stubborn Rick insisted on replacing his beloved 220Swift with another one. He never got my velocities but for some reason, he got a one holer and I didn't. But good enough. Well, enough tripping down memory lane for one day.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 17, 2012, 11:22 PM:
Well Leonard you were spot on about the H414 powder.I went out and did some shooting with the formed .22-250 AI cases today. I think I've settled on a load using the 60 grain Bergers bullets.The best Load was 43.0 grains of H414, no pressure signs at all, and they were running between 3800-3850 fps.With accuracy very acceptable(1/2 inch 3 shot group)..I am happy with the results.
Good Hunting Chad
[ June 17, 2012, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 18, 2012, 09:44 AM:
Very good! That performance is all you will ever need on coyotes. I'd like to see a few terminal performance examples. Just to see if you get clean pass throughs, or a lot of damage. But, for sure that load is going to kill them very dead.......if you do your part, yuk yuk!
Good hunting. Lima Bravo
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on June 18, 2012, 10:18 AM:
Yeah you're totally right Leonard,it is all I will need in a coyote rig. Oh, I think I could probably go another grain of powder and get 3900 fps out of it but I got all three of the things I was hoping for. Speed in the 3800 fps range,no pressure signs,and it's very accurate. Now if I can just run the table and get like you said the terminal performance I'm looking for with with those 60 grain bergers. Thanks for all the insight...
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 11, 2012, 02:50 PM:
Any update on the Berger bullet performance on varmits ? I have only used the MEF bullets in 17 cal. They were pretty much through & through on crows, coons, possum & skunks at any range.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on July 11, 2012, 03:49 PM:
With the MEF, you know they will cause damage. I have only used the .224" 62 grain but from what I hear, MEF's are killing bullets and not particularly suitable for hides. I have used thousands of the regular target HP Bergers. Mostly .224" but some 6mm, mainly 80 grain, 74 grain and 68 grain. The one that seems a bit confusing is the 68 grain. My experience was poor performance, (although superbly accurate) I saw many runners but we have others that have used that bullet and swear by it.
It's like anything else, distance to target and velocity will affect performance. With the 65 Berger, in ten years, I have had exactly one runner.
Good hunting. El Bee
Posted by Prune Picker (Member # 4107) on July 11, 2012, 09:07 PM:
Thats good to know, as i have only used the Bergers in a 17 Cooper @ 3350fps max. They produced a cal sized entrance hole w/ a quarter sized exit at 250 yds max distance.
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