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Posted by booger (Member # 3602) on September 03, 2011, 07:56 PM:
Got a chance to pick up a Remington VTR bolt gun, a bunch of brass and Hornady New Dimension dies for a good price from a buddy.
Heard and have read a bunch about it...have watched TRinCO put the smack down on coyotes on video with his .204 AR, but wanted to know if any of you have some other opinions about the cartridge.
I need another rifle like I need another hole in the head, but thought it would be cool to have, and the price is right.
What do y'all think?
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on September 04, 2011, 01:15 PM:
Apparently ya already know what I think,...run bergers and hit'em in the shoulder..That's what I think....in case there was any doubt. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 05, 2011, 12:17 PM:
I have never owned a 204, but believe it to be a vast improvement over the standard 223, for our purposes. That is known, <smirk> as damning with faint praise. haha
No, really. I think it has potential. I'm willing to listen.
gh....lb
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on September 05, 2011, 02:55 PM:
I have a few 20 cals, and they are fun cartridges. They seem to hit harder than a 17 Rem and several people believe 17's are sufficient for coyotes.
Of course they can be used for chucks, prairie dogs, and what not.
I'm not a fan of the VTR? is that the one with the triangle barrel? But if ther price is good enough, and you want it, get it and give it a try.
I haven't found a better bullet than the 35 Bergers for the 204. It works great, IMO, for the recreational caller.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on September 05, 2011, 03:52 PM:
The only .204 i had was on an ar platform,the 35gr. bergers were the best round I found. I had a problem with fliers after 3 rounds. It was the gun not the caliber, couldnt get it right finally sold it. I still want one in a bolt gun.
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on September 05, 2011, 09:12 PM:
I know TR and a few others have good luck with them. but not for me. I was running the 35 gr. bergers at about 4080. Maybe I was running them too fast. Maybe my shooting sucked. Or maybe I didnt pick my shots. I dunno. But I do know I lost more coyotes with it than the 17 hmr.
If the front half of a coyote is covered with brush, I want to be able to shoot at the back half and break him down.
If there is some light brush, I want to be able to shoot through it with results.
If a coyote is running straight away and telling me he aint going to stop, I want to shoot him below where the tail meets the body and stop him.
Now Quinton had pretty good luck running the 39 grains last year. But he is a hell of a shot and did not attempt anything beyond the capability of the cartridge. That pop-gun can only do so much you know. LOL
Hell, maybe Tom is right. I shoot a larger caliber to make-up for my shortcomings. Or something like that.
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 06, 2011, 07:15 AM:
My grandson, Josh, who is a killing machine on everything that flies or runs, has a Browning 204. He was shooting a 32 grain Berger at some fantastic speed, but these big old Ky. coyotes were squalling, getting up, and running off. Since I started loading the 39 grain Sierra Blitz King, he has killed over 40 with no run offs. Don't know if that would hold true on the AR platform rifles or not, but I'd be willing to bet it would.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on September 06, 2011, 10:27 AM:
I had 3 different guns in that caliber and used 2 of them on coyotes. My experience with them was much like Randy's, I lost too many coyotes. I sold my first gun after using the 39gr SBK's and 40gr V-max's and then everyone said the bullet was the problem so I bought another gun and tried the 35gr Bergers with about the same luck. Sold it and wound up with another one but sold it before ever using it.
Now my cuzz has an AR in that caliber and he loves it so far. Maybe I'm a bad shot too?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 06, 2011, 11:32 AM:
Could just as easily be the "Whammy". I sure lost a lot of cripples with my first Model 660 in 6mm. I thought just about any bullet was like lightning in a bottle. How wrong. A bad bullet is a bad bullet in any caliber.
Then I discovered the 60 grain Sierra HP and a whole different world, accuracy as well as terminal performance.
I could also mention, as long as I'm at it that I lost too many runners using the 68 Berger in a different 6mm on a Mauser action.
There is no way I could be convinced that any bullet could make a good coyote cartridge out of a 223Rem. I never lost one, but four or five shots were routine. Well, maybe not always? It just seemed like it.
I may not be convinced on the 204, but I'm still listening. And, BTW; 40 coyotes is just a good start. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
gh....lb
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 06, 2011, 12:04 PM:
"And, BTW; 40 coyotes is just a good start."
Might be true Leonard, but it would make a good finish for a lot of the internet hunters up in this part of the world. (LOL +)
Hitting 'em where it counts is probably the most important element on any of these calibers, but in Josh's case, it was definitely the 32 grain Bergers not doing the job. He didn't hit the 40 plus any better with the 39 grain Blitz Kings than he did the previous ones with the 32 grain Bergers, but the 40 plus are graveyard dead.
Same is true for my hunting buddy, "Yote Yoda", and his JP AR-15 in 223 cal.. He shoots the Hornady Superperformance Varmint, 53 grain Vmax, and I haven't seen one run off on him in the two years he has been shooting that rifle. Big old coyotes at ranges up to 230 yds too, DRT. He kills more than his share of coyotes too. Maybe it is because he was a "Cave rat" in Viet Nam?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 06, 2011, 01:14 PM:
Well, don't get me wrong, Al. The comment was not to belittle your grandson's accomplishments.
My personal yardstick is that with a hundred or so examples, you should have a realistic idea of the terminal performance of just about any rifle/cartridge/bullet combination.
I realize that might be a tall order in various parts of the country. It's sure as hell, a damned good season or two, just about anywhere.
gh....lb
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 06, 2011, 02:56 PM:
My experience with the .204 Ruger as a Coyote rifle has been a good one.I've shot a few coyotes with mine and it has been almost exclusively with the 35 grain bergers.I have had very few runners most have been dead where they stood.VERY effective cartridge out to 300 yards or so.
I don't use it much anymore,having retired it in favor of my 17 Tactical as my primary fur gun,with it's better B.C and bullet construction and it seems alittle easier on the fur. But still I really like how the .204 works on coyotes...FWIW
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by sak81 (Member # 3706) on September 06, 2011, 03:52 PM:
No complaints here. Probably have taken 75-80 coyotes over the past couple years. As close as 25 yards, an out to 300. 32 gr. v-max seems to work for me.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on September 06, 2011, 04:56 PM:
So LB, when testing a new bullet or cartridge, if you lose the first 40, just keep going till you're sure?
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on September 06, 2011, 05:09 PM:
I see berger makes a 30 gr. and a 35 gr. berger .20 cal. bullet. Would someone tell me where to find the 32 gr. berger bullets that Al is speaking of?
I've had good success with both the 35's and the 40 gr. bergers. The 40's will pass through from time to time, but still work well.
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 06, 2011, 05:37 PM:
TRnCO, my bad on the 32 grain Berger. My 72 year old brain is becoming bogged down with premature and ontime Alzeimer's (LOL). It as actually a Hornady 32 gr. Vmax that he was having the trouble with. The fellow who was loading for him was real high on that particular bullet but it sure didn't put 'em down to stay for Josh. He was drilling them solid at varying ranges out to 300 yds, and they were all doing the same thing, going down, squalling like the devil had them by the tail, but then jumping up if their mate or running partner came over to check on what was wrong. He had 5 at one time come into a big hay field that lies between two wooded areas, and ended up killing 1 out of 4 that he shot, and he shot it between the eyes at 75 yds. The 35 grain Berger might work fine for him, but he has no desire to abandon the success he has experienced with the 39 grain Blitz Kings. Tack driving accurate and pure deadly is about all you could ask for, IMO.
Posted by TRnCO (Member # 690) on September 06, 2011, 06:58 PM:
ah, makes more sense...
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 06, 2011, 07:20 PM:
quote:
I may not be convinced on the 204, but I'm still listening. And, BTW; 40 coyotes is just a good start.
I don't even take it that far. When trying out a new bullet I will test it on chest shots as well as just behind the shoulder and also a running away shot that enters from the back and moveing forward... In most cases five to ten coyotes will tell the story.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on September 07, 2011, 06:01 AM:
Possumal, based on the young man's successes with them, how are those 39Blitzkings on a solid shoulder shot? How hard is he pushing them?
Reason I ask is that I load the 39Bkings for the .20TAC as my p-dog ammo, but i've been sckeeered to try one on a coyote. They sure do make for vivid prairie jell-o though! And simply going on internet heresay, I tun the 35 Bergers as a 'coyote' load, but have maybe only kilt 5 with them & another two with the 40gr Bergers. Hardly enough for me to draw any conclusions on my own...
thanks
[ September 07, 2011, 06:01 AM: Message edited by: knockemdown ]
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on September 07, 2011, 06:41 AM:
I carry a 204 when calling during cat season.
Took Cals advise and loaded 35gr Bergers. Works real good for fur, but I expect to and do loose some coyotes when I carry it.
They dont leak much with the 204 and if the brush is thick, they can be hard to trail up without a dog. The dog stays home when calling cats.
With that said. The 204 has suprised me on some coyotes that I hit too far back. Killed them deader that heck, just like a 22-250 would.
Stay after them
Kelly
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 07, 2011, 08:22 AM:
knockemdown, Josh hits the coyotes in the best spot for the shot offered. Most of them are broadside and he shoots them in the shoulder dead center when he can, or just behind on a quartering away shot. Shots facing him, he pops them high in the chest where it meets the neck. He refrains from taking running shots as it is usually a losing situation where you don't get to practice it a lot. In all cases, he has not had one run off since I started loading the 39 grain Blitz King for him. When he shoots them dead center in the shoulder or chest, the fur damage is minimal. He doesn't sell the furs but gives them to a feller with a big family who does anything he can to make a honest buck, and he reports back to Josh no bad damage to the fur.
Paul Box of Sierra suggested 23.7 grains of RE-10X at 3500 fps, and it shoots so good in Josh's gun and kills the coyotes so well, I have not played with it one bit. He hunts everything with bow and gun and trains and sells Chocolate labs, so he doesn't have time to hunt coyotes much, either alone or with his old Peepaw. It took me about a year hunting with him to get him out of pulling the trigger and looking up at the same time, resulting in misses on the first 8 or 10 coyotes he shot at. It is their problem if they give him a shot now though, as he is a "Cool hand Luke" type now.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 07, 2011, 09:49 AM:
quote:
pulling the trigger and looking up at the same time,
My son did that on daylights, when younger. On coyotes, for some reason? Used to drive me totally nuts! Took some earnest conversation to cure that shit!
Based on his most recent dove per shot shell expended, he might be doing the old "up periscope" ? I should have been paying attention.
gh....lb
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 07, 2011, 12:03 PM:
Leonard, "Up periscope" is one hell of a fitting term for what Josh used to do. He could sit there at the bench rest on the practice area and shoot 1/2" groups all day long, but let Wiley show up, and he was taking a peep, real bad. I had to threaten not to hunt with him anymore, and worse, to get him to realize I had no reason to tell him wrong. Once he nailed his first one, he got right with the program and his Peepaw. Sure wish I could hunt with him more, but such is family life as I know too well. He has a dandy little boy, Collier, who wants to hunt and go with daddy everywhere, and another boy on the way before much longer. He is busy as hell trying to make a living, raise his family, and hunt, hunt, hunt, hunt, and then hunt some more. Kinda ticks his wife off that Collier wants to be just like daddy and Peepaw. I hope, for his sake, he copies after daddy a bit more. (LOL for real)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 07, 2011, 06:00 PM:
I can't imagine why somebody would pop his head up, kind of like he was goosed? I have never seen it before, jr. had shot .22s and shotguns, handguns for years previously. Then, he starts shooting coyotes and suddenly, it's "up periscope". Unbelievable. And, amazing to observe.
gh....lb
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 08, 2011, 05:48 AM:
Leonard, I suspect it has something to do with the coyote being such a nervous, furtive creature. That combined with the hunter really wanting to put the smack on Mr. Trickster that he get much more nervous than hunters usually do on their first deer or two. Not really understanding the actual dimensions of the coyote's kill zone from different angles adds to the problem. In winter, when they are furred out to the max, they don't realize that there is 3 to 4 inches of fur and guard hair on top and bottom, and they consequently misjudge and give the coyote a slight haircut. Most of the time, even if he knows how to stop old Wiley, he doesn't have the luxury of plenty of time like he does with most deer, and he gets overanxious as a result. When they finally learn, if they ever do, to "Hurry up but take their time", a beautiful transformation happens---fur on the ground and it is addictive.
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on September 09, 2011, 07:14 PM:
When I was searching for a dependable bullet for my .20-250, I tried the 39 grain Blitz kings. They failed 50% of the time. Meaning they splashed on the surface causing a large surface wound. Would indeed require a follow up shot.Unnecessary suffering on the Coyote's part, which I find unacceptable. I have found the 40 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip to be the best hands down. Some say the Noslers have a tougher Jacket than the other plastic tipped bullets.Maybe, I don't know. I am convinced, it is the Ballistic tip's "solid base" that does the job for this caliber. Excellent penetration and killing performance. Not always fur friendly. I am pushing these faster than your mild velocities. 4200-4300 fps, makes them even more convincing.
Cheers, Gary
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 10, 2011, 07:41 AM:
Since I have mentioned my grandson, Josh, several times in this thread, I thought this would be a fitting place to post a picture of his little man, Collier Sexton, obviously well along in his training to be a hunter. He is our third great grandson, and I sure do love that little feller. He has a little brother due in about two months, and he has no chance of being anything but a hunter. Kinda ticks his mama off that Collier seems sure to follow the footsteps of his daddy and Grand Peepaw Possumal. Maybe he'll get lucky and follow his daddy more. I sure do love him, and hope the Good Lord lets me stick around long enough to take him out coyote hunting, maybe even train him some like I did his daddy, Josh. Here is a picture of Collier, ready to rock.
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on September 10, 2011, 08:58 AM:
Follow thru is a big deal with some archery shooters too. I don't know how many shooters would drop their bow arm to watch the arrow fly to the target, or rather miss or hit low 'cause they dropped their arm to look.
Kinda like the periscope deally...
Posted by tawnoper (Member # 497) on September 13, 2011, 07:47 AM:
"When I was searching for a dependable bullet for my .20-250, I tried the 39 grain Blitz kings.
==================================================
They failed 50% of the time. Meaning they splashed on the surface causing a large surface wound. Would indeed require a follow up shot.Unnecessary suffering on the Coyote's part, which I find unacceptable. I have found the 40 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip to be the best hands down."
==================================================
This. Same story.
On paper, shooting groups, the 35gr Berger and 39gr B.K. are the stars. On critters I had much better results with the 40gr Noslers.
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 15, 2011, 02:04 PM:
I can't speak for anybody pushing the 39 grain Blitz King that fast as I have no experience doing that. The load that I am using for Josh's 204 is nowhere near that fast, but it is dead eye accurate and he has had no problems killing coyotes DRT. It appears that maybe the 39 grain BK isn't designed for the higher speed loads. Josh was doing that splatter deal with the 32 grain Vmax bullets at high speed. High speed isn't always the best answer for every caliber, IMO.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 16, 2011, 10:41 AM:
The .204 must be OK, and I have seen posts by guys who swear by them. Me? I consider the caliber too dang small for serious coyote work. I have spent more than my share of time and money in trying various calibers and bullets. If I had known when I first started calling that I would be wise to simply buy a good 6mm Remington sporter, I could have saved a bunch of time and money. Anything that a .204 can do, a 6mm Remington can do it better.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 16, 2011, 10:58 AM:
Probably a Good Idea Rich.Leave it to the guys that know how to kill those coyotes with the smaller calibers.We don't want a bunch of crippled coyotes running all over Iowa. lol
Good hunting Chad
[ September 16, 2011, 11:00 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 16, 2011, 11:02 AM:
The closest to an eternal truth as has ever been stated, on Huntmasters. I agree, 100%.
gh....lb
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on September 16, 2011, 12:22 PM:
Thinking out loud again;
Is it possible that the .204 is adequate for the smaller western coyotes but falls a bit short for the larger eastern coyotes????
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 16, 2011, 12:38 PM:
Koko, if you look back at some of the posts of coyotes killed by my grandson, Josh, you'll see they are typical big old coyotes. They seem to be longer coupled in this part of the country, and I assume that holds true in the northern states like Maine. Josh has killed a lot of 40 lb. plus coyotes, including one at 42 yds with his Matthews bow. He wasn't all that excited about doing so, as the picture he sent was taken with his damned cellphone and didn't do the critter much credit.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on September 16, 2011, 01:23 PM:
"Is it possible that the .204 is adequate for the smaller western coyotes but falls a bit short for the larger eastern coyotes????"
-------------------------------------------
Adequate? Well, that depends. Out west you run into strong cross-winds and longer shots though. A 60 grain Sierra at 3700 fps out of a 6mm is hard to argue with though.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 16, 2011, 02:15 PM:
I think what Rich is trying to say is, if you want them dead, use enough gun.
While a 204 may actually be counted on to do the job, 9 out of ten times, it is also true that a 6MM will settle a coyote's hash, more better.....IF YOU DO YOUR PART. (yuk, yuk)
Look at it this way. Are you going to hunt tigers with a 204? Well, why not, for heaven sakes?
Because the 577Nitro does the job more better. (if you do your part)
gh....lb
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 17, 2011, 10:34 AM:
There's no doubt that the 6mm is a wind cheating rascal. I like the 70 grain Sierra Blitz King and it is flat out poison on coyotes, close or far. I have heard guys swear by the Super Performance Hornady 58 grain factory loads, and they may be fine. I know my nephew, Yote Yoda, is totally sold on the same bullet in 53 grain for his JP AR-15 223.
I'll bet if he was hunting out west with the long shots in windy conditions, he'd switch to a 6mm of some sort. I know I like my Savage 243 for long range work, calm or windy. Out to the range most of our coyotes are shot, I think the 204 or 223 are fine. I just choose which rifle to take based on the kind of country we are going to that day.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 17, 2011, 10:52 AM:
Nobody really cares what car you drive or what sort of rifle you shoot, it's all within the realm of personal preference.
At one time or another, I have tried many different, but I continue to error on the plus side.
A 204 would be just fine in many circumstances and a mite marginal, in others.
If you have confidence in it, sally forth and slay the dragon, or the yote, as the case may be.
gh....lb
Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on September 17, 2011, 11:12 AM:
Mine shoots the 40gr V-max at 3500 fps, I couldn't get the 35gr Bergers to shoot very well. I'd like to get more velocity but this is what the rifle likes.. I've killed less than a dozen coyotes with it, I use it more for rock chucks, but I've never lost a coyote or ruined a hide with it either....
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 18, 2011, 06:11 PM:
I've been testing the 40 gr. Hornady V-max in my 20x47 Lapua last season and the start of this one.. After just a handfull of coyotes taken with the 40 gr. I would say its pretty much a coin toss as far as hide damage and killing coyotes goes. It can leave a nice little twenty cal. hole going in and nothing comeing out or it can make a big mess... I don't have much for choices for bullets at the moument so I'll have to make due till I find something else..
I made four stands with a double comeing in on the first stand, shot the male first and had just a little hole going in. Shot the female shortly after and had a bad splatter.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/030-1.jpg[/IMG]] 
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Capture0000.jpg[/IMG]] 
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 18, 2011, 06:29 PM:
That is just the problem, you never know with a VMax? If Nosler makes something comparable in .204 it may be like the 55 .224" Ballistic Tip, with a heavier jacket. This is why I like my 65's that steam right on through, barely opening, if at all, on a lung shot.
gh....lb
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 18, 2011, 06:49 PM:
I picked up a box of Nosler 40 gr. ballistic tips on the way home from Pierre, gonna give them a try and see what happens.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 19, 2011, 08:44 AM:
Leonard, Nosler does - it's what Gary recommended at the top of the page. I never did get around to shooting any coyotes with them out of my .20-250 but he has shot a bunch with them out of his.
I'm going to try the .243 caliber 55 B-tips on coyote out of my 6-284 this year. Don't have time to skin and put up fur this year, so the fur friendly aspect will be purely academic. I'm not expecting to be impressed in that regard though. Neither am I expecting many cripples.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 19, 2011, 09:59 AM:
Yup, you are correct. I missed that, but we are thinking along the same lines. I don't know if it is a thicker jacket or the base but my experience is mostly in 22 caliber and everybody I know that uses the 55 Nosler swears by them, at hyper velocities.
Hey, a 6/284? What happened to that 17 Predator you wouldn't sell me? lol
Maybe you noticed that I'd going in that same direction, as my new daylight gun is a 22-243Middlested.
What's the twist on your 6/284? Using the light bullets, you could go 1 in 12" I think?
gh....lb
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 19, 2011, 10:53 AM:
Leonard, it's a 1-13 twist. Had intended to use slightly heavier bullets in it, 65's or 70's, and it does shoot those fine. But it shoots the 55 BT's REALLY well, and at 4300 fps, they are the flattest shooting as well as the most accurate. So, what the heck, I'll run 'em. I'm sure they'll kill the crap out of coyotes just fine.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 19, 2011, 11:41 AM:
I think that's the secret with those hotrods. A slower twist favors barrel life. As long as you stabilize the bullet. I think that something around 180,000RPM should provide the best accuracy. I don't know exactly where spinning them too fast is, but I know that I was spinning 55 Bergers too fast @ 4400 and they were blowing up, and that was out of a 14 twist. And, that's the long and short of why I have been using 65 grain bullets all these years. It was accidental, but I love the results.
gh....lb
PS, Boy, when you decide to try something else, you don't mess around, do you?
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 19, 2011, 03:40 PM:
Lungbuster's comments about the 40 grain Vmax at 3500 fps and the results is quite comparable to my experience with the 39 grain Blitz King for my grandson. He is pushing the Vmax at 3500 and killing them dead with minimum fur damage. So is Josh with his 39 grain Blitz King at a comparable speed. The only difference is he as shot a lot of coyotes with his 204, many of them at long range, with the same good results. Again, it appears that some of these rockets some guys are pushing at high speeds could be causing bad results. Just saying.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 19, 2011, 06:12 PM:
quote:
it appears that some of these rockets some guys are pushing at high speeds could be causing bad results.
Youre right Al.. The plastic tips are intended for the smaller cases of which ever Cal. you are shooting... The bullets are designed to blow apart as they enter the critter you are shooting, at a higher vel. it just speeds up the blowing apart process..
I could load down so that they would work but then I would have vel. simular to a 223....
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on September 19, 2011, 07:07 PM:
TA, I remember years ago, and I mean years ago, when a lot of guys were loading the 220 swift so hot that they were disintegrating if they hit the slightest weed, and I even read stories about them breaking up in midair without hitting anything. Personally, I don't care if the bullet is moving 3500 fps or 3300 fps if the critter gets dead, preferably DRT. Hell, then came the outbreak of various wildcats, all rushing to see if they could reach warp speed. If they were target shooting for accuracy, I guess the guy whose bullet got there 1/100 of a millisecond faster, dead center, beat the other dead on shooters.
As far as I know, a fellow from Lexington, Ky. named Lowell Remark, as good a guy as you could ever meet, still holds the bench rest accuracy record for the 222. I saw the 10 shot group and it was truly a sight to see, one 22 cal. hole with one little dimple at 2:00 o'clock. Man, he was pure death on groundhogs too.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 19, 2011, 07:34 PM:
The warp speed will help you kill more critters. Less hold over, less drift,shorter lead on a mover.....
[ September 19, 2011, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on September 20, 2011, 05:12 AM:
As is obvious by my screen name,, I hunt with a 6/284. Don't run it super fast with a 70 grain blitzking sierra is very predictable... My issue with the lighter bullets leaving at higher muzzle velocities is the fact once they get to about 300 yds they have shed so much velocity that the heavier bullets are going faster and soon pass them.
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on September 20, 2011, 06:11 AM:
(Quote)
My issue with the lighter bullets leaving at higher muzzle velocities is the fact once they get to about 300 yds they have shed so much velocity that the heavier bullets are going faster and soon pass them.
is this correct info?
I am not a ballistics expert only been reloading a few years but this seems to contradict the ballistics charts Ive read. can you clarify for me? (edit as i am no typing expert either)
[ September 20, 2011, 06:13 AM: Message edited by: Paul Melching ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 20, 2011, 06:24 AM:
I'd have to run the numbers to tell you specifics. But, at some point down range, a slower bullet with higher B.C. is eventually going to outrun a faster bullet with lower B.C.
Not sure where a 70BK at say 3900 fps catches up to a 55BT at 4300 fps, it could be 300 yards, might be a bit further. It's definitely not a factor I'm concerned with when calling coyotes though.
I do know, off the top of my head, that the 55 will shoot flatter to at least 500 yards and be within 1" of wind drift compared to the 70 at 500. With significantly less recoil - a factor I am concerned with when calling coyotes.
All that said - if the 70's would have shot as accurately as the 55's are in this barrel of mine, I'd be using them. And, as far as it goes, the 70's DO shoot well enough for coyote work. It's just like I said earlier, those 55BT's shoot REALLY good in this barrel, too good to ignore. And flattest possible trajectory has always been a big interest of mine, something that means a lot to me in a calling rifle. Recoil matters to me too. So, it was almost a no brainer to go with the 55's after seeing the groups and velocities.
No flies on the 70's though.
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 20, 2011, 07:03 AM:
So I was curious and ran the numbers.
Standard numbers disclaimers all apply...
Numbers can be manipulated to say almost anything we want them to.
The ones I used here, are a BC of .27 at 4300 fps and a BC of .31 at 3900 fps, with all the atmospheric stuff left at default values. Change any of that and you can come up with slightly different results.
Anyway...
The velocity of the 70 doesn't match that of the 55 until 700 yards. At which point the 55 has slowed down to 1764 fps and the 70 is still doing 1780 fps.
But... That's simply the remaining velocity at 700 yards. But since the 55 has been going faster all the way there, it takes less time to get to 700 yards. .770 second vs. .802 second, to be exact.
I only ran the numbers out to 1,000 yards, but the 55 still gets there just a hair sooner than the 70, 1.414 seconds vs. 1.422 seconds. I think I'd call that a tie, actually.
But, like I said earlier, none of this matters to me in a coyote calling rifle.
- DAA
Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on September 20, 2011, 07:26 AM:
Thanks Dave
The charts I was lokking at only went to 500 yds.
and none showed heavier bullets passing lighter ones.Its all academic to me but I was curious.
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on September 20, 2011, 08:47 AM:
55gr at 4300...I want to go fast Daddy....
Been shooting the 55's at 4000 in the straight 243. It has done well on the coyotes and pigs that I shot - so far.
Dave - have you killed any coyotes with the 55's going that fast? Splashes?
kj
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 20, 2011, 09:02 AM:
Not yet Kelly. And the way my schedule is lined up, it's probably going to be a month before I get a chance.
- DAA
Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on September 20, 2011, 08:40 PM:
What load are you guys shooting to get that velocity? I'm only getting 3500 in my 58gr's. It shoots fairly consistenly in the .5's so I'm not really complaining, just wondering.
Thanks.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 21, 2011, 04:15 AM:
I've loaded 55's at 4000 fps for my partner Tim's .243 using H380. Can't remember the amount off hand, but it's the max. listed for the 55 in Nosler #4.
My 6-284 load is too easy to remember. It's all 5's. 55BT's w/55.5 gr. of N550.
- DAA
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on September 21, 2011, 05:01 AM:
I am using H4895 at near max with the 55gr NBT
kj
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 21, 2011, 09:57 AM:
I'm like Lungbuster. I don't get anywhere near those numbers in my stock 243 Ruger with 74 Bergers and 70Nosler BT. That's the rifle with the laminated stock that I was using when we hunted Nevada, Dave. But, no worries about cripples.
In other words, I'm really not a big fan of those light bullets, like, for instance a Texas heart shot on the second animal.
gh....lb
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 21, 2011, 03:05 PM:
Leonard, I don't have any first hand experience yet, but I've seen my partner shoot around 200 coyote with either 55 BT's or 58 Vmax at about 4K.
The coyote shot right up the poop chute w/55's at 4K+ while trying to exit stage center, are the ones that don't complete the step they were taking or the thought they were thunking. From what I have seen, those are the ones you walk up to and find frozen in strange positions, like the folks in Pompeii that died while having sex or taking a dump.
I'll report back next month after I get a chance to shoot some coyotes w/55's at 4300 my own self. I'm betting they all either lay down and play dead instantly, or with poorly placed hits, get sick enough to make the coup de grace stupid easy.
If I'm wrong though, I'll report that as enthusiastically as I would if I'm guessing correctly. More so, probably...
- DAA
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on September 24, 2011, 10:30 AM:
Dave,
you got me to thinking some more about the 243 AI now. I just don't see me doing a 6x284 or 6-06 or such.
Since 55gr bullets are to be used, I'm wondering how the 22-250 AI compares in all this.
I'd keep my distance under 500 yards. That's a hellofa long poke for me, especially on something as small as a coyote.
Regardless of the numbers Nosler shows for their 6mm and .224, 55gr ballistic tips. I would believe the 22 cal has to have better BC's with the same weight bullets in the same brand.
Though somehow Noslers 6mm 55gr BT' are listed at .276 BC and the .224 55gr BT's are listed at .267 BC...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 24, 2011, 12:17 PM:
I don't think that's inconsistent, Dan. It takes a different G form for a .224" bullet to equal most 6mm's. Then you are getting into much heavier bullets and a fast twist to stabilize them.
One thing is for sure; just as soon as you think you know something, there will be someone comes along and quote you divergent statistics that blows your theory out of the water. But some of it falls under the Truman opinion of "lies, damned lies and statistics".
Like knockem said about the 7MM diameter, strictly as a matter of numbers, it is really hard to beat it ....however, exceptions do exist, and I guess; proving the rule?
If you want good BC, and downrange drop tables, 6MM beats 22 caliber. At least, on paper.
gh....lb
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 24, 2011, 02:42 PM:
Dan, when those .243 55's came out, I just plain did not believe it. But, I used them in my .243AI and my old 6AI both, on 'chucks and such, out to well beyond 500 yards, and had to change my mind.
The .22-250AI makes more sense all around though, frankly. But, one of the 6mm's with 55's does have more powder capacity, so more velocity, so flatter trajectory.
And, I'm with you, a 500 yard shot on a called coyote isn't even part of the program for me. I do it twice in a blue moon, but so rarely, I don't even take those kind of shots into consideration.
Honestly, what I'm doing, using 55's in a slow twist 6-284 is just ridiculous and I know it. The goal was the flattest trajectory possible out to 400 yards, plenty of energy, not too much recoil. I think it does all that, but, that doesn't mean it makes any sense or is a smart project to get into. A smaller capacity 6mm or like you said, the .22-250AI is a lot more sensible approach.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 24, 2011, 07:51 PM:
But Dave. You are not providing we in the Peanut Gallery with any insight, or rationale' for the abrupt switch in philosophy, 17s and 20s to a 6/284? What gives?
gh....lb
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on September 24, 2011, 08:20 PM:
Good grief, that's twice in this lifetime I remember being accused of taking the sensible approach. Even more bizarre that it also concerns firearms.
This topic got me all motivated to go to the range and shoot a little today. In fact, I just got home 1/2 hour ago. I took the 17 Rem with 25g Hornady HP's, 22-250AI with 55gr Nosler BT's and Sierra 55 SBT's, and the 6XC shooting the 65 VMax.
This range goes out to 300 yards, so that was the max distance I could shoot. Very low wind and basically ideal conditions made for some pretty good groups. I was happy.
I got sidetracked and didn't get to shoot near as much as I had hoped.
Now I have to tell this story because it made me give up most of my shooting time.
There was a fellow there at the 200 and 300 yard side. I noticed immediately that he had a high dollar Blazer rifle. It was the silver Luxus with engraving on it and very pretty wood. What also caught my eye was that he had what I would guess to be a $50 scope on it. Yep a rifle costing over $5-9K and a POS scope. The way it was shooting, he couldn't hit a bulls-ass with a snow shovel. Said he was going to CO to go antelope hunting on Wednesday. I helped him get in zero'd enough to hit a 10" target at 200.
He seems like a pretty nice guy, and we got to talking. Think I have him convinced to get a new Leupold or Zeiss scope. Oh yea, I got to compare his Swarovski spotting scope with my B&L Elite. I liked mine better. First time I ever looked thru a Swaro.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 24, 2011, 08:46 PM:
quote:
But Dave. You are not providing we in the Peanut Gallery with any insight, or rationale' for the abrupt switch in philosophy, 17s and 20s to a 6/284? What gives?
Eyes must be getting bad......
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on September 25, 2011, 06:26 PM:
Hey Dave,
If memory serves me correctly, this 6mm-284 is a switch barrel set up with your 20-250? The reason I mentioned it, doesn't it have just a 24" barrel? That's pretty good velocity...
Hey LB, This is one of a double, I killed this morning at first light. I couldn't find the second one. Both of them at 275 yards, using the Middlested, and 55 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips.
(finally had a day off)
Gary
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on September 25, 2011, 07:11 PM:
Good grief, how far can an animal run with a hole the size of a baseball in it?
Those coyotes are tuff buggers.
I decided to try some 55 BT's in the my 243 today. With around 42-43grs of H4895 they are very accurate in my rifle.
[ September 25, 2011, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on September 25, 2011, 08:54 PM:
Damn Sparky, that's a big exit hole.
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on September 25, 2011, 09:52 PM:
Maybe the second one vaporized? I'm a fan of very dead coyotes though, and that certainly is one.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 26, 2011, 12:12 AM:
At a campout several years ago, I was hunting with Vic and a coyote came in on my side, kinda blindsided me as I was hunkered down beside a big yucca so I didn't see it until he was within 50 yards.
I shot him with a 6MM and that sucker turned and ran off at full speed. Flustered, (I knew I hit him!) I got off a shot just in front of him and then Vic nailed him and rolled him with that little 19 Calhoon at maybe 250 yards or so? He actually had a straightaway angle on him that I didn't quite have.
We showed him that evening at the campout with a hole in his offside exactly like the one pictured above. There was no doubt by either of us that the ribcage damage was caused by my 6MM at a distance of perhaps 35 yards, or so.
How that animal managed to run well over 200 yards with an exit like that is beyond me. There was a number of witnesses that saw the damage. And, the Calhoon didn't appear to cause any additional damage, at all; but it dropped him right now.
gh....lb
Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on September 26, 2011, 08:50 AM:
I've had similar experiences, I've dropped coyotes with my 17Rem and couldn't easily find the entrance hole. But I've had big exit holes with my .22-250 and the coyote ran 100 yards before dying.
If I remember correctly this one ran about 100 yards and I had a hard time finding it....
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 26, 2011, 08:56 AM:
Gary, yes you do remember correctly. Except it's a 25", same as the .20-250 barrel.
And it's a warm load, for sure. That's where the barrel wanted to start stacking them though. Which is how I like my barrels to act, so no complaints about it here.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 26, 2011, 11:56 AM:
Interesting, Dave. I steer clear of hot loads, completely if at all possible, and I know you said "warm".
But, when the ambient can fluctuate between subzero and shirtsleeve weather, I don't like to blow primers and damage my bolt on sunny afternoons. (happened once, years ago)
I also wish this new switch barrel I acquired was a little more like yours. From 6/284 to 20-250 is worthwhile, a refreshing change of scenery. Mine is 22-243M and 22-250AI and I can't see, think of, a very good reason to chuck it up and screw it off? I've seen the data and performance is so close, why bother? Actual, documented data, not charts.
Another grim realization. This 22-243 can't come close to my 22-250AI, which is one of my night guns. Both are 6 groove Hart barrels but the Ackley is 2½" longer, same twist.
The juices are beginning to flow. Gary, you got my number.
gh....lb
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on September 26, 2011, 02:12 PM:
The 6mm's can be messy for sure.
This was one I did in with a 243 Win and a Sierra 85gr HPBT. Which happens to be a fantastic deer bullet BTW. Either way, this guy ran 75-100 yards. He acted like I missed him and took off running.
Guess I hit him a little further back than I generally like, too.
[ September 26, 2011, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: DanS ]
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on September 26, 2011, 09:15 PM:
Alright!! Gore pictures, yippeee.
I started saving some last year when I was carrying the 243WSSM. Haven't shared any of 'em cuz I kinda felt like a sick fuck for taking pictures. There's nothing wrong with being pleased with terminal performance, but snapping pics with an ear to ear grin had me wondering about myself...a little bit.
Shot this one at about 50 yards from the ladder with a 65 gr V-Max running just under 3500 fps. He didn't run. First the innie side...
...then the outie side.
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on September 26, 2011, 10:26 PM:
I posted this photo last Winter, can't remember why or when, but anyway, check out the contrast in bullet performance. Same rifle and bullet, only this one was 25 yards further, @ 300 yards, just a small exit hole....Went to Nevada this last Labor Day weekend and killed a few Coyotes. No gaping holes or damage to the hides,Unpredictable.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 26, 2011, 11:00 PM:
My file system is in shambles. I have a photo somewhere of about half of a coyote smeared all over a creosote bush. I mean, it was dripping and oozing liquified parts with a rising sun backlighting all of it. Really kool.
gh....lb
edit: oh, it was #4Buck.
[ September 26, 2011, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Patterson (Member # 3304) on September 29, 2011, 09:59 AM:
I have been shooting the 204 for 4-5 years now. I love it. Have been shooting the Winchester 34 gr hollow points.....factory ammo that wal mart carrys. I love that ammo as well. They say they are going 4,025 fps. I think i only lost 2 coyotes last year. Which is pretty darn good. I used to shoot the Hornady 40 vmax but I dont think I will ever go back to those. Have had way to many run offs with vmax's. For factory ammo those winchesters are perfect. Good price and easy to find when in the middle of no where. Most any wal mart will have them in stock.
Last December I reloaded 100 rounds of 40gr bergers. I have yet to sight them in and test them. I just stuck with the 34's till end of the season last year. I will start this year off with the bergers and see how I like them.
Posted by DanS (Member # 316) on October 01, 2011, 08:13 AM:
I wonder who's 34gr bullet Winchester uses. Does Win make a .204 bullet?
Posted by Colorado Coyotes (Member # 62) on November 25, 2011, 06:10 PM:
Shot this one last Tuesday at 80yds with a 243 and Hornady 75gr HP's. The side in the pic is the entry, right on the point of the shoulder. The exit was opposite side, behind the last rib, 50cent size.
Amazingly this coyote hit the ground hard (all I could see were feet) and got up running like a bat out of hell. He went 75 yds or so and piled up. From the looks of him he had mush in chest cavity. Makes me scratch my head. He was a big coyote for here, 35+ and an adult.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 28, 2011, 08:20 AM:
Seeing this thread brought back up, reminded me, I don't think I ever reported on how the 6/284 w/55's is working on coyotes.
Have killed 22 with it so far. It's a death ray. Only missed one, a couple days ago, buzzing the tower at about 50 yards out. But I've dumped several at over 350 yards with it, too, including one at over 500.
Anyway...
Of 22 coyotes killed with it so far, distances from 35 yards to 500+, hits at every angle. Only 1 coyote has taken a step. It was running straight away at 50 yards, I made a crummy hit high in the back leg. That leg was left hanging at the hip by a strip of fur, coyote doing a slow spin, I hit him again.
Two things stand out so far. One, hits that I consider "too far back" with my .17, requiring a quick follow up, are just instant death with this thing.
A hit like that is also, a good example of the second thing that stands out, which is, this thing is extremely hard on fur! Hit them "too far back" and you get the proverbial "hole you can put your boot in". Even some of the frontal facing shots have been getting gutted. Hit them right in the V of the throat with them facing me and it blows a couple yards of intestine out a big hole.
Bottom line, so far, very accurate and very flat shooting. Very deadly. Very hard on fur. Oh, and VERY loud! The recoil is less than I thought it would be, but the muzzle blast is awful.
First 8 killed with it (arranged with ugly sides down):
Oh yeah, one more thing - my partner Tim made a bad hit one with his .243 using 80 gr. spitzers the other day and we couldn't find it. There is no doubt the cannons give more leeway for making a bad hit and still collecting the coyote, but...
- DAA
[ November 28, 2011, 08:21 AM: Message edited by: DAA ]
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on November 28, 2011, 09:13 AM:
yep - the 55's out of my 243 have been wicked good so far on coyotes.
Will be toting the 204 come December and cat time in Okie land.
Stay after them
Kelly
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 28, 2011, 10:56 AM:
What 55?
Yes, a marginally bad hit is still a dead coyote, when using enough gun. I have seen a few coyotes shot right through the hips with 70-75 grain bullets that died mostly without moving another step. Very important, at night.
That Dave is a killing machine! "Splain the switch from 17 to 6/284? Major change in philosophy.
gh....lb
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on November 28, 2011, 11:58 AM:
LB its the 55 NBT. Dave is shooting the same bullet.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 28, 2011, 12:49 PM:
Okay. I have some experience with the 70 grain Nosler BT and they are very deadly on coyotes. In 243.
gh....lb
Posted by the bearhunter (Member # 3552) on November 28, 2011, 06:41 PM:
that sounds like a fur disaster.
Dave, don't you put up fur???. sounds like a ttsx would be the cats azz if they were to shoot good. 22 with 1 miss ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
. good shootin
[ November 28, 2011, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: the bearhunter ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 28, 2011, 07:36 PM:
The way I read it; the one miss was actually a bad hit, requiring a second shot, but I could be wrong?
gh....lb
Posted by Lungbuster (Member # 630) on November 28, 2011, 09:49 PM:
What's the velocity Dave? I'm also interested in why the switch from the .17.... Fur prices suck?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 28, 2011, 11:45 PM:
I have never known DAA to be a fur hunter? Could be, but those that assume the using of a seventeen caliber automatically supposes the hunter pulls fur might be mistaken. OR. I could even be wrong? It has happened before. But, I don't remember when, or what it was about?
What's the deal, Dave?
gh....lb
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