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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 11:11 AM:
Here's what I'm wondering, after visiting U.S. Optics, yesterday.
Many military and SWAT customers and a sprinkling of civilians, some of which was told, are retired military.
There guys apparently cough up some serious cash and they say a good percentage of it is from personal funds. In fact, I peeked at a few invoices being held down by scopes on shelves and they were addressed to individuals.
Okay, so apparently they do 3,000 a month, I think is what I heard?
Anyway, my question. You have military personnel scheduled for mideast. I would think that nobody invests that much money unless they also handload. Are these guys handloading in the desert, or do they probably stock up ahead of time?
The idea of troops working up loads, as I do seems a bit unlikely, in the sand box, but must be happening?
Maybe they use issue stuff? I really don't know, but I wonder? Packing presses and dies and scales and components?
Just something I never thought of?
gh/lb
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 10, 2011, 11:32 AM:
If I remember correctly our troops have to use military issued ammo which has to meet certain guidelines under the Ganevia convention. No h.p. or splitter rounds and so on.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 12:39 PM:
I wonder how close they adhere to Geneva. I mean, shit. 50BMG never was meant for personnel anyway. Why worry about a technicality? Do they sell accuracy bullets in that caliber, FMJ or otherwise?
I certainly am not advocating blowing an insurgent's head off with anything but legal gear. Why, that would be uncivilized!
gh/lb
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 10, 2011, 01:09 PM:
I really doubt that a soldier would use his own personal rifle while in the battle field. It seems more than likely that he plans to build a good rifle for off duty purposes.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 10, 2011, 01:26 PM:
While I was in the Gov. followed the rules pretty close. I new of a few guys that carried a few store bought rounds in there pockets for shooting ground squirrels that set off ground and motion sensors which they found out the hard way was a no-no..
The 50 cal. round has a full metal jacket bullet. Full metal jacket bullets canbe pretty accurate but don't do so well for killing coyotes and the same canbe said for humans..
I'm sure you heard the saying wound one soldier and it takes two to haul him off the battle field...
Edit to add; Rich the use of youre own rifle also is not allowed.. About the only thing you could carry for personnel weapons was a knife, but it has to be approved by the comp or base commander.
[ June 10, 2011, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 01:30 PM:
Yeah, but we aren't there to wound ragheads, are we?
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 10, 2011, 01:30 PM:
The Hauge treaty was where "bullets designed for wounding or mass destruction" (or to that effect) was formed but we (US) weren't even there much less signed it. We do however follow it, though it is only binding against signing members nations.
http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/dec99-03.asp
Now we all know FMJ ammo is standard issue but they also issue BTHP ammo such as MK262 which features a 77gr SMK for the SPR, DMR type riflemen. As well as the 308, which uses 175 gr SMK bullets.
The hollow point isn't there to increase expansion but to aid in accuracy and is now refferred to as Open Tip Match ammo. Thus making it legal.
As for regular GI's loading or using their own weapons, it ain't happening. They can and do however supply sighting equipment on their own dime. Rifles and ammo are strictly gov issue.
Now we do have a great number of "private contrators" serving over there. They work for private companies like Blackwater providing security and such but even they have guidelines as to what they can use and do. Some of the companies use junk guns and ammo, some will spring for a $7000 scope on a 50 Barrett. One guy I know of spent his time over there repairing Bushmaster M4 type weapons, while another I know of had a good supply of KAC guns and parts.
But regular GI's take what is issued for the most part.
[ June 11, 2011, 06:23 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on June 10, 2011, 02:20 PM:
I don't know this to be gospel, but I think I saw or read somewhere (might have just dreamt it) but I believe snipers have a pretty close relationship with armorers who do their loading. They do develop loads and the guy who runs the press sees that they don't run short of whatever the specific teams likes to shoot.
Pretty sure the armorers are stateside, but that may be incorrect too.
Pretty useless info, huh?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 02:32 PM:
Yes, but I know I have seen film of armorer rooms and they had all that stuff, Dillons, and what I have, which I don't remember the RCBS model # but it will handle 50BMG dies.
Maybe they can only use handloads in matches?
gh/lb
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on June 10, 2011, 02:39 PM:
It was my understanding that shipping was included with the never ending supply.
Or am I not following?
edit:
Maybe I get it now...pretty sure snipers use all handloads, all the time.
[ June 10, 2011, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: jimanaz ]
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 10, 2011, 03:40 PM:
I'm certainly no expert on the subject but you can follow the paper trail easy snough. The designation number is M118 for the old 308 sniper load and was Special ball it was a 173gr bullet. The 175gr SMK is now loaded with RL15 probably from Lake City Arsenal.
Now that the 300WM has replaced the 308 it will still probably be loaded in an arsenal, not on a Dillon.
The AMU does load and work on special loads, as does Crane who is where most of the new ideas come from.
Black Hills does make the MK262 ammo and ships it overseas but there is no armorer cranking a Dillon for a sniper team in hadjiland.
I'll try to dig up some links when I get time.
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/AMM701-1.html
it does say handloaded...
[ June 10, 2011, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 04:30 PM:
Wow, I sure could use ammo that I can hit a coke can at 700 yards.
Tom, I am not exactly disagreeing with you but I know that I have seen shows on TV at one time or another in which they had something like the Army or Marine Corps rifle team or some such? And, they were set up to handload everything. Now, if they do that for matches, why wouldn't they handload for social work?
For that matter, do police departments handload for SWAT? Probably not, huh? Almost all police don't know squat about handloading and ballistics?
Could our panel check in please? Seems like Del is a refuge from the dark side where you will be vilified if you don't shoot 17 caliber, but that could mean factory 17 Remington?
49, handload?
dogboy, handload?
Del, handload?
Lungbuster, handload?
Cronk, handload?
I get a little bit tunnel vision because I tend to think all coyote hunters, predator hunters in general, they all handload. Am I wrong to think so? Seems like the vast majority would handload?
Might be easier to ask, WHO DOESN'T HANDLOAD?
gh/lb
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 10, 2011, 07:08 PM:
Leonard, I've never been there to prove or disprove it but I do read alot of that kind of stuff and have never heard of anyone using anything but LC 308 or Black Hills 223/77gr besides the issue LC M855.
Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on June 10, 2011, 07:15 PM:
LB,I do not load but would like to start.I keep holding out until we get a republican in the white house,thinking that the price of materials would go down.
But I think that idea is not much more than a fantasy.
The brand I use works very well for me.I shoot a .223 and use 55gr and 62gr hollow points ammo. The ammo I use shoots well out to 300 yards.I use a savage varmint rifle with a supper snipper scope 40x20 power. The worst scope a person could ever buy for coyotes or predator calling period. All though it is a good scope and has been bulletproof and holds zero.My rifle is stock but does have a nice trigger and a guy wants to have it pointing down range when he takes the safety off.And it is a bolt.In Spite of my scope being over kill or not suited for coyotes this rifle has never let me down.Guess I should just say that this scope has a narrow field of view for coyotes.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 10, 2011, 08:18 PM:
"One guy I know of spent his time over there repairing Bushmaster M4 type weapons"
Seeings as how I have made it my mission in life to tell of my experience with Bushmaster every chance I get, this is a comment I can stand behind from personal experience. Just talking with my neighbor the other day about my POS Bushy that has been at the factory for four of the six months I have owned it and is still on "parts hold" because it's a POS and they can't seem to get it to shoot the minimum 2 MOA that I've asked for, but that's a whole 'nother stump to stand on. I do recall Kyle making mention that there are some guys there who have AR systems of their own which are different than what the DoD supplies, because one of his buddies over there sold his weapon to another buddy who had just arrived in Iraq. I believe that they have to be approved and must be mil-spec, but they do exist. He also said, after I told him of the adventure I was having with Bushmaster and Remington Arms over that POS I mentioned earlier that Bushy had not even come close to getting the contract for new M4's because they were, well, a POS, for lack of a better adjective. BTW, did you ever notice that BM is used as an acronym for Bushmaster? How appropriate. Just saying.....
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 10, 2011, 08:49 PM:
Leonard I hand load, have been for 40 years. Worked for Sierra bullet for 3 years back in the 80's. My friend of 50 years worked downstairs with Jim Hull in the ballistics lab for 8 years.
ALL MILITARY ammo that is shot out of their weapons is BALL AMMO FMJ. Period!!! THERE may be some super secret shit floating around though. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Lake City for example does make what they call match grade ammo that shoots FMJ bullets. QUALITY stuff that will shot MOA all day. Not like the basic GI issue most of us are familiar with.
The mass producing of standard FMJ bullets lack the quality control when comparing them to hunting bullets we deal with.
However, some FMJ bullets DO have tighter quality control standards and those bullets will be used by Lake City,Federal and a few others who have government contracts and make up some straight shooting stuff.
Sierra made lots of FMJ bullets that we sold to Federal to load accordingly.
Armorers for our military shooting teams do in fact hand load for their teams, but they shoot paper targets. So the famous Sierra 168's,190's are used.
I see no reason why they would not hand load for our sniper teams, AS long as their using FMJ style bullets when engaging human targets.
I know there is special made match grade military ammo floating around out there for the boys who shot the .50cal stuff too. Just more accurate than the standard belted 50 cal stuff.
My friend has obtained his share of MATCH grade military issued ammo over the years, when he shot high power matches with the US Army and USMC teams. GOOD STUFF!!!
The issue of troops buying their own scopes is interesting. Just like some of our troops early on bought their own bullet proof vests because the Army didn't have enough. So families chipped in and bought their kids one out of their own pockets. BETTER quality.
Samething with these scopes. They bought their own because their units didn't issue them for whatever reason.
An FBI former NAVY SEAL I met assigned to the terrorist task force has spend several tours overseas.
The FBI sent him and others a quantity of ammo for their M4's. On the pallot of ammo was a 500 round case of Federal ammo mixed in with all the FMJ stuff. Turned out to be 55gr V-Max bullets. OOPS they had to send that stuff back.
If Knockemdown is looking he can tell you a lot about US Optics scopes. He's owned a few of those in his day. HE is the go too man on optics.
I will say there are good and bad armorers in miltary units. A good one is a guy to hang out with, because he can sure trick out your rifle and fine tune it, making those coconuts shot on the Taliban a much easier task.
[ June 10, 2011, 08:55 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 10, 2011, 09:03 PM:
Lance, BM needs to quite dicken around and just give you a NEW rifle and be done with it. Throw that POS you got stuck with, in the metal heap.
Sorry to hear that. They say my R-15 is made by bushy, no problems with it so far, but I don't shoot lots of rounds and get it all hot and bothered to see if it will stand up to the test either.
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on June 10, 2011, 09:17 PM:
"Throw that POS you got stuck with, in the metal heap."
I think its a plastic problem.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 09:21 PM:
Yeah, I agree with what Ken said. Lance, it's long past time they just sent you a new rifle. The length of time involved is inexcusable. You have much too much patience.
gh/lb
edit: why didn't you just buy from Dan, (the man) in the first place?
[ June 10, 2011, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on June 10, 2011, 09:25 PM:
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 09:33 PM:
What does that mean? You are too expensive? Not competitive, or just a value issue? Quality cost a little more? I can't read all those $ signs.
gh/lb
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on June 10, 2011, 09:35 PM:
Yep exactly.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 10, 2011, 09:37 PM:
Sorry Festus, scroll down to page 5 and check out MK262 and OTM it ain't no secret.
http://www.gandrtactical.com/images/archive/5_56mm_military_info.pdf
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 10, 2011, 09:38 PM:
Your probably right Dan, crap none the less.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 10, 2011, 09:40 PM:
Tom I can't open it. Someone using some ass kickin ammo? If so news to me, cool by me.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 10, 2011, 09:42 PM:
Lance is being patient because he is going to bust out that big barrel of ink he has and get to writing.
His next thread will be where he got the CEO of BM fired. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 10, 2011, 09:44 PM:
And please understand, BM doesn't have any contracts supplying M4's to the DoD for our troops. They did receive a small contract to supply the Iraqi National force, courtesy of the DoD and our tax dollars.
The armorer I was talking about was working for a private security company over there. He hated BM and couldn't believe some of the stuff they sent.
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on June 10, 2011, 10:01 PM:
Man, I've got a pre-merger Bushy that I'm quite fond of. It shoots pretty good too. Just goes to show you what happens when corporate giants who have no background in the industry swallow up the smaller fish. I'm talking about Cerebus, not necessarily Remington, but it seems that their quality may have slipped some too?
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on June 10, 2011, 10:11 PM:
Cerberus is a holding company that owns the Freedom Group, that holds all their sporting goods manufacturers. The Freedom Group has been for sale for a while now and there was some talk about doing an IPO and sell it to the people. Bottom line is everything they touch turns to shit.
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on June 10, 2011, 10:15 PM:
Oh yeah Jim, you misspelled Cerberus. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 10, 2011, 10:49 PM:
Cool link Tom. I like what they said about the 223 on the second to last page about it should'nt be used on live targets past 200 yds...
They claimed anything farther would have about the same tissue damage as a person or animal shot with a 22 L.R. at less than 100 yds.
I agree and thats why I don't own a 223 ....
Edit to add: I thought Rem. sells the DPMS brand of AR's...
[ June 10, 2011, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 10, 2011, 11:21 PM:
Yeah, the 223 is particularly useless on coyotes. Beyond 200. I concur.
gh/lb
edit: so Fred is going to bust my bubble on US Optics?
[ June 10, 2011, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 11, 2011, 12:21 AM:
Yes trying to put down a raghead with a 223 who has been sucking on an opium pipe all day is quite the challenge.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 11, 2011, 06:21 AM:
Ken I just saw you couldn't open it, it's a pdf file so you'll need acrobat reader but here's a snipet;
"Of the currently available 5.56 mm
ammunition, the best overall choices for
military use in carbines and rifles are the
readily available and JAG approved
Hornady 75 gr OTM, BH loaded Nosler
77 gr OTM, and BH loaded Mk 262 77 gr
Sierra Match King OTM--all of which
offer both superior incapacitation
potential, as well as greater accuracy than
M855 62 gr FMJ."
JAG approved is the key words.
Here's another snipet of this article.
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,87045,00.html
"About a month ago, more than a million rounds of USG-issued 7.62 X 51 M118LR sniper ammunition was denied to Army snipers in Iraq because a civilian contractor and a misguided staff sergeant believed the ammo was illegal. The civilian became convinced that pallet loads of Lake City M118LR rounds were hollowpoint. The civilian complained to an ammunition staff sergeant named Mosley, who took him at his word.
But of course M118LR isn't hollowpoint. It is open-tip ammunition, a distinction that evaded both the civilian and the noncom who should have known better, AHA (Ammo Holding Area) Staff Sergeant Mosely.
There's a huge difference. Hollowpoint is illegal. Full stop. End of story. M118LR is legal. It is Government-approved and issued flat-trajectory, match-grade, one shot one kill ammo that is used in the Army's M-24 SWS (Sniper Weapons System) rifle. This ammunition saves lives. It allows snipers in Iraq and Afghanistan to kill the enemy at extended range -- before the enemy can kill American soldiers."
Tim, you forgot the magic words, "if the bullet fails to yaw" and please consider we're talking about a 14.5" carbine where velocity is compromised and don't forget we're talking about FMJ ammo or OTM "target" ammo that isn't designed nor recomended for hunting.
Oh and DPMS makes some parts for Remingtons 308's while BM makes some parts for their 223's. Now Byron South told us that Remington who makes his signature rifle, produced what he wanted, while BM told him no even though at the time they sponsored him. But Remington has been competing for the SASS rifle AR-10 type rifles) contracts long before Cerebrus bought any of them.
[ June 11, 2011, 06:27 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 11, 2011, 08:29 AM:
Thanks much Tom. MOST excellent story.
That is some good ammo and a fine bullet they use.
Glad to see stuff like that making it's way into the ranks.
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on June 11, 2011, 08:46 AM:
Dammit Tom, you misspelled Cerberus. Don't piss off Dan!
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 11, 2011, 08:53 AM:
Back to Leonards question, everything I come up with says the 308 load is now M118LR which uses a 175 gr SMK and is loaded at the Lake City arsenal.
This is all I could find on the 300WM.
"The US government purchased MK 248 MOD 1 .300 Winchester Magnum match-grade ammunition in 2009 for use in adapted M24 Sniper Weapon Systems and other .300 Winchester Magnum sniper rifles like the US Navy Mk.13s. This ammunition was developed as a .300 Winchester Magnum Match Product Improvement (PIP) and uses the 14.26 g (220 gr) Sierra MatchKing Hollow Point Boat Tail (HPBT) very-low-drag bullet fired at a nominal muzzle velocity of 869 m/s (2,850 ft/s) ± 15.2 m/s (50 ft/s)."
Nothing at all on loading ammo. The only reference to loading ammo was for the AMU team.
http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/index.asp
Not saying it don't happen but with the legalities and logistics, I think it's highly unlikely that a sniper has his loads tailored to his rifle.
[ June 11, 2011, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on June 11, 2011, 09:11 AM:
I couldn't come up with anything to substantiate my fantasy either so it appears that Tom was once again right on target. All the info I was able to dig up implies that the sniper dudes have to reprove their dope whenever they change ammo lots.
Seems kinda backwards to me for guys who's motto is "1 shot, 1 kill", but maybe the stuff they get is held to high enough standards to make the process fairly simple.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 11, 2011, 09:34 AM:
I read in Tom's link or somewhere else that the sniper ammo dose'nt have to shoot small one hole groups but just shoot a group size thats consistant everytime and canbe as great as 1"..
When switching from one lot# to the next all they should have to correct for is bullet drop..
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 11, 2011, 09:45 AM:
I have watched my nephew, Danny, knock down a lot of coyotes at 200 to 250 yds with his AR 223, so I suspect it is the ammunition you are using and the placement of the shot that tells the story. He is shooting the Hornady Superperformance Varmint with the 53 grain Vmax. I am sure the 55 grain Sierra Blitz King, loaded right, will give equal if not better performance.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 11, 2011, 10:05 AM:
Quote, from LB..
*************************************************
Might be easier to ask, WHO DOESN'T HANDLOAD?
*************************************************
If anybody who doesnt and wants to please ask, I'm certainly not an expert, you would have to ask the guys on PM.. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Ok joke, I would be more than happy to provide my e-mail or phone number, to get a guy started as most if not everyone here would also.
Once you take the "plunge" there is no turning back, and why would ya ? Just do it.. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 11, 2011, 10:15 AM:
I am alway surprise to find someone who doesn't? I mean, at this level, it's a very logical assumption.
gh/lb
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 11, 2011, 10:28 AM:
Can't spend what you don't have. If I was to order up a custom job, I can guarantee you Dan would get the dime. I like what I hear about his work and he gave me good information on a question I had concerning my Savage.
Too much patience? I agree, but what more can I do? I have the support of all my "higher ups" in the various and different companies and magazines I am associated and affiliated with, but how far can I go before I'm too far over the line and they cut me loose, too.
Yeah, it's bullshit, plain and simple, but at what point do I unleash the dogs of war and spend all day at my computer posting defamatory threads on every hunting- and gun-related site on the web advising others of how I've been treated on this? It was Mark Zepp who pointed out over on Higgins' board that, as a writer, I have some preordained obligation to the paid advertisers in the various magazines to support them and not do anything to cast aspersions on their companies. My position then, as it is even more so in this instance, is that revenue for magazines comes from advertiser - yes - but it also comes from readers and although I cannot specifically quote them in saying so, I can assure you that I have kept a number of my editors apprised of this matter and the consensus amongst them has been that they also consider the protection of the readers' interests as paramount and that if a company is selling substandard or defective equipment and advertise in their magazines, that does not give them free reign to just rip people off. They have, without exception, told me to do what I need to do - right is right, wrong is wrong - and they'll stand behind me. Having said that, I know that there is a line I need not cross. Figuring out just where that line is seems to be the challenge right now.
Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on June 11, 2011, 10:29 AM:
Leonard,
I have reloaded for a long time. I used to reload for pistol, but don't anymore. I haven't done any reloading for my rifles in prolly 7 yrs, but I have all the stuff for it. Currently I am using factory 17 Rem ammo, but do have a box of Berger 25 gr. HP's floating around here somewhere waiting to be loaded. For the record, I have a Tikka .223 Remington, and also an inherited Remington 788 in .22-250, so to think I am limited to .17 Remington is not accurate. I shoot what I want.
Ref the military, I'm thinking the line snipers are using match grade ammo from Lake City or some such. I don't think it is handloaded like you and I handload. However, some of the shit hot units like Delta and Seal Team 6 may well be using handloaded ammo, but they tend to operate under rules all their own.
As for police, my agency dictates what ammo it is permissible for us to use and carry. Handloads are definitely out for both liability issues and for the negative aspects it could carry in a trial. And to be honest, for our purposes factory ammo is adequately effective, accurate, and reliable. The Speer Gold Dot has earned a good reputation and performs well, and that is what I carry in my 40 S&W, my duty 45, and my Glock 357 Sig. In our agency 1911's are not authorized, so in my 1911 I usually carry what I always have, Winchester Silvertips. I also carry Silvertips in my S&W 686 .357 Mag, which I don't qualify with but do sometimes wear when I'm hunting. I've always fed my 10mm Silvertips, as well, except the few times I took it out West for bear defense before I got my 44 Mag, and for that I fed it Hornady 200 gr. JHP's.
I'm not a SWAT guy, so I dunno what our snipers are using, whether it's Hornady TAP rounds, or Federal Gold Medal Match, or Black Hills stuff.
I have the dies, bullets, etc. to load in .17 Remington, 6mm Remington, .25-06, .280 Remington, 7mm Remington Magnum, .30-06, 44 Magnum (Marlin 1894), 444 Marlin, and .45-70.
[ June 11, 2011, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: DEL GUE ]
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 11, 2011, 10:31 AM:
Al,
Although the Hornday VMax 55-grn is a staple amongst .223 shooters and a lot of coyote hyunters, I've noticed that the Vamx doesn't seem to have the anchoring power of the Sierra bullet of the same type and weight. Thought it was just me, but I've had at least a dozen other guys tell me the same thing, many of whom load their own and have similar experiences.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 11, 2011, 10:39 AM:
Yep, I'm with ya LB...
I have reloading books and maps, at my side by the recliner, I hate TV, other than westerns, Fox and sports.
The wife watches shit TV, housewifes ect..
I find pleasure in reading maps and reloading info, even for rounds I don't own..yet anyway.
And yeah I'm a dork..
Posted by DEL GUE (Member # 1526) on June 11, 2011, 10:40 AM:
Cerberus sucks ass. And I don't mean just a little bit, either.
They fucked up Remington and have now so thoroughly fucked up Marlin that I will no longer buy a new Marlin rifle.
Dave, if liking reading maps and looking at ballistics and stuff for cartridges you don't even own (yet) makes you a dork, then you ain't alone, buddy, cuz I'm the same way. Hell, I even enjoy going onto Google Earth and looking at Air Force and Navy bases...I love seeing the B-52's and B-1's and F-15's all lined up, and seeing carriers and subs.
[ June 11, 2011, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: DEL GUE ]
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on June 11, 2011, 10:40 AM:
I quit reloading for the time being as well. I have a lot of handloads to use up and with the birth of 3 kids in the past 5 years, I only send a few rounds down range each year. The only factory loads I have been using still are Hornady Vmax 32 grain for the .204. I get really great performance with these out of my Savage.
Posted by knockemdown (Member # 3588) on June 11, 2011, 11:16 AM:
quote:
edit: so Fred is going to bust my bubble on US Optics?
nope...
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 11, 2011, 12:34 PM:
Cdog911, as I posted, Danny is shooting the Hornady Superperformance Varmint with the 53 grain Vmax and he gets good results. I agree with your statement about the 55 grain Sierra Blitz King, and I believe that it will outshoot the 53 grain Vmax.
On the 204 rifle, my grandson was shooting some 32 grain loads that some guy loaded for him, and was having a lot of coyotes get up and run off. I started loading him the 39 grain Sierra Blitz King, and he has killed about 40 in a row with no run offs at all. It is more accurate also.
Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on June 11, 2011, 01:04 PM:
quote:
On the 204 rifle, my grandson was shooting some 32 grain loads that some guy loaded for him, and was having a lot of coyotes get up and run off. I started loading him the 39 grain Sierra Blitz King, and he has killed about 40 in a row with no run offs at all. It is more accurate also.
Hey Al, do you know how fast these loads are and the twist rate on the barrel? I'm interested because I had just the opposite happen to me with the factory loads when doing my testing. The BK's had runners and the vmax dropped everything dead in its tracks from 5 yards to 350. My Savage has a 1:12 twist.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 11, 2011, 01:04 PM:
Hey Del, Jeremiah Johnson is on AMC right now, he just discovered the bald dude buried up to his head..Lol
Headed to the library now, with Mr Hyde. gonna' check out some "topo" maps of the lolo pass area. On the ID/MT border..(edit) were tryin' to put a fishing trip together..
[ June 11, 2011, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 11, 2011, 01:11 PM:
I think the 55 VMax is a damned good bullet, accurate and seems to put them down with finality. I have only lost one animal in over three years.
(no smart remarks)
gh/lb
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 11, 2011, 01:16 PM:
tlbradford: Not sure about the twist on my grandson's 204. It is a Browning, all camo.
Paul Box of Sierra gave me the load, 23.7 grains of RE-10X @ 3500 fps. It shoots fantastic groups in his rifle and has outstanding killing power.
Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on June 11, 2011, 02:29 PM:
Hey Dave, is that the same "Lolo" from the movie,
"A River Runs Through It"?...Just curious.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 11, 2011, 02:35 PM:
Leonard,
Since I'm just fixing to get into loading, all I shoot is stuff loaded by someone else. The factory loads by Hornady for that bullet have a MV of 3680 fps and I get groups with them of about an inch. The loads I use now are from BVAC, using the same bullet, but only 3500 fps, and they groiup 1/2-inch. Seems that 180 fps is crucial in the bullet's terminal performance as the Hornday round anchors them well while most of the BVAC coyotes dance a bit before dying.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 11, 2011, 04:15 PM:
Other than 223 (which I load as well), I haven't fired a factory round in years. I can't believe folks don't load their own.
Cdog, sounds like you have a chronograph, it should be mandatory for all reloaders.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 11, 2011, 05:22 PM:
I feel exactly the same, Tom. I see so much advantage in handloading that it is difficult for me to understand hunters and shooters that are still using factory ammo.
I was actually wondering where Lance was getting his MV numbers, since it would be unusual that a shooter using factory ammo owned a chronograph.
But, I firmly believe that handloaders know what they are talking about to a far greater degree than those that are still buying factory fodder. Factory shooters get their numbers from various sources, but it's always estimates. They seldom know bullet drop and terminal foot pounds at expected ranges. On the other hand, handloaders know these things and it is a distinct advantage.
Every rifle shooter should load their own ammunition. Like Tom said, I don't own a rifle that has ever seen factory ammunition. I have my reasons for buying certain handgun ammo, then harvest the empties, as best I can.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on June 11, 2011, 05:34 PM:
Fact is...I couldn't afford to shoot factory ammo if I wanted to...Not that I would.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 11, 2011, 05:53 PM:
Well now. I don't want to alter any misconceptions, but when you get right down to it, "savings" are kinda hard to find.
You can go out and buy twenty rounds for twenty dollars, or
You can buy a RCBS kit to get you started for (I think) about $300. Then, you need a scale and loading blocks and neck turning tools and primer pocket reamers. Powder is up around $25 no and so is primers. Bullets? probably less than $20 a box, the heavier, the more expensive. Cases, of course you will want the best? Empty Lapua cases are (what) $100 depending on caliber. Don't forget the chronograph. There are inexpensive ones for $100, I think? Mine was closer to $350, at the time, probably more now, if you can find one.
I don't know how much I have invested in handloading precision ammunition?
It's not cheap getting started and I really don't know if I save money, but who can put a price on quality? I believe it's worth it, but saving money? I'm not real sure it's an economy gesture, unless you are into competitive shotgun or handgun and you shoot high volume. For a hunting application, not really.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on June 11, 2011, 06:36 PM:
Well not if you look at it like that...but,
The initial investment is long wore off for me,...so, now I'm shooting $.19 cent custom taylored .223 vs..What?...Almost a buck a shot for the "good stuff"...Maybe not quite that high, but, almost...
My boy and I shot 1400 rounds in 2 1/2 days of prairie dog "hunting"...That would be out of my price range with factory ammo.
On the other hand, I don't think it's for everyone. I've got guys that hunt with me in the fall/winter, but hardly even touch a rifle the rest of the year.
I can't say it would do them any good to load their own for 50 rounds a year tops...if that.
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 11, 2011, 06:59 PM:
What I estimated for MV's is what the company offers in their ballistics data, no chrono here. The cheapest way to go is find someone who is a good reloader, buy all the materials you need and pay them whatever they're asking to do the actual loading. I've got a couple different guys that will load what I want, 300 at a time, for nothing, they enjoy doing it that much. I'm just now looking at getting set up to load for my .22-250 as much for the cost savings in the long haul as just the fun of shooting my own formula. The rest of you guys seem to enjoy that part of it so WTF. That, and learning to do this only furthers your knowledge base for just about all aspects of shooting.
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 11, 2011, 07:01 PM:
I'm not convinced that a serious handloader has to have a chronograph when you have resources like Paul Box at Sierra. If you have a load worked up for a particular rifle that groups real good at 100 yds, and performs well on coyotes or whatever you hunt, you can just about bet it is registering some impressive numbers on the chronograph. Now, this may not be right for everybody, but I could never see it being a required item. The guy who was loading the 32 grain bullets for my grandson's Browning 204 has a chronograph and all the goodies, but the shells he was loading weren't putting the coyotes down to stay. The 39 grain Sierra Blitz Kings get the job done both on paper and on coyotes.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 11, 2011, 07:34 PM:
Back in the day when I first got into hunting Pred. I started with a 22-250. Ammo was pretty cheap then but I did'nt like how it performed on certain critters. I was looseing money on the hides due to damage, on advice from my gun dealer I got started into reloading with just the basic tools which was paid for from the hides I collected over the winter. It cost me about 20.00 a day for fuel depending on how far I had to travel to get into them. One fox at the time more than covered my fuel and any more than that was a profit which went into my reloading and gun fund. Wife never complained cause my money to hunt and buy tools or more gun came from the fur checks...
A chrony was one of the things I invested in right after I got my press and dies and I feel is just as valueble as the press.
A chrony can tell you alot about youre loads and save some time and money at the range..
I only own one big game rifle and it dose'nt get shot to often so I don't even reload for it and most likely never will..
I think if a caller only shoots a hundred rounds a year or less would be money ahead without investing in one unless there was a certain animal that a caller needed to tune his loads for like fox and perhaps cats.
Not many cal. can do it all without reloading for it except for a few if looking to keep hide damage down..
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 11, 2011, 08:23 PM:
Lance, get you a chronograph and see how far those guestimates the ammo companies and reloading books are off.
Al, do you send Sierra your rifle and let them figure the load? If not then consider this, they are basing their info on the guns they have shot. This does not take into account a loose chamber that might take a couple of grains more powder to equal the pressure they got. It also works the other way around, you can have a tight chamber,throat, barrel and reach pressure way before their max.
A chronograph is the de-liar for guns and I have learned more from seeing the results on the screen than anything else.
I bought 223 ammo by the case when it was cheap ($149/1000) and no way could I justify reloading by saving money. It's the end result that counts. I sold off what was left of my stockpiled ammo when prices got as high as they did. Figured I could reload 223 with better bullets and make better ammo for the same price and did.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 11, 2011, 08:45 PM:
Yes, but that is placing a lot of emphasis on cost. If you look at saving money as the rationale for handloading, you overlook much of the advantage. Take bullet weights, point styles, base style. This opens many options that are not available in factory cartridges.
If you think that's a big deal, what about the amount of various powders available from different manufacturers, different burning rates, different primers, maybe an optional Magnum primer specifically for sub zero weather...stuff like that.
Handloading is just exciting in the amount of possibilities available to accomplish just about anything. Even designing your load with a faster burning powder due to your rifle having a shorter barrel than normal.
What about seating depth? You don't have a choice, with factory ammo. Anybody that is interested in accuracy will tell you that seating depth is critical.
Well, I'm just scratching the surface, but maybe one can see the possibilities. Now, start looking at drop tables and velocities and different bullet shapes and weights and you start to get into things that the man that shoots factory ammo doesn't have a clue.
I'm all for accurate handloaded ammunition, but (and my labor costs nothing, right?) I don't see much in the way of saving money by reloading.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on June 11, 2011, 09:26 PM:
"I don't see much in the way of saving money by reloading."
I guess, from where I sit, once you have the initial outlay covered, you're money ahead doing your own things. Now, from reading comments here and eslewhere, handloading can be something of a beast in that you never do quite attain that "perfect load", but I figure that if I can find a load that works well for each of my rifles and will do what I expect it to do at the other end of the trajectory for less per round than what I'm paying some big name to try and do that same thing for me (and likely won't), which results in me putting more fur on the stretcher to offset my input costs for supplies, I'm cutting costs, ergo saving money. If I can find a load that is as accurate as the BVAC stuff I'm shooting now, but has the MV and the kinetics to keep a coyote-sized critter down where he was hit, I'll stay with it. If you're the type that is always tweaking things and spends a lot of time at the range just trying to squeak that one more of whatever out of every shot, no, you're gonna invest a lot of time and money in the venture. And yes, I'm betting a lot of you veteran loaders are saying, "Yep, that was my plan, too." LOL
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 11, 2011, 09:56 PM:
I would not load for anybody else. I go into too much detail that somebody else would not appreciate. Somebody that might pay for components and then thinks, (incorrectly) that they have not been the recipient of a big favor.
Nope, I work too hard to do it for somebody else. On the other hand, it's good therapy. All the repetitive actions, I just like the working with my hands and fashioning my own miniature ballistic missiles.
gh/lb
Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on June 11, 2011, 10:14 PM:
Hell I handload cause I can do 30-40 before I could drive to town and back.
Crono is a good thing. The more data you have the more right choices you make.
edit to add - I do have one wildcat, plus what I can make at the house tends to shoot better than what I can buy. Not sure if you save any money, you tend to shoot more. Not a bad thing.
Going to bed. Catch you later
Kelly
[ June 11, 2011, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Kelly Jackson ]
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 11, 2011, 11:04 PM:
I bought a chronograph a few months ago. WOW, what you can learn, and what you'll be surprised at.
Yep what's in the books and what your load says through the graph is two different things.
It's nice to know how much bullet drop you'll have at a given yardage based on the velocity coming out of your rifle.
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 12, 2011, 12:24 AM:
Hey Kevin, Duckdog..I'm glad too see ya dude.
I haven't watched a River runs through it in years ? I can't remember "lolo" being referenced, but yeah, It's the same general area of the movie, I think ?
Haven't been up there in 20 years, matter o' fact, I just got married last time I was up there, we got stuck in a snow-drift, set up a tent and got drunk on cheap wine..
Man the good ole' days..
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 12, 2011, 05:46 AM:
I only load for my son in law and that's only because I used to own the rifle. I don't know how you can work up a load without having the gun on hand.
But the son in law only shoots about 20 rounds a year and that's at the range before deer season.
Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on June 12, 2011, 06:20 AM:
Tom64, no I don't send my rifles in to Sierra. Paul takes a lot of things into account when he recommends a load, including the gun they have used and the gun you are using. I have never found him wrong. He generally gives me several loads to try, and I pick out the one that works the best.
I said earlier my view wouldn't suit some people, and that is fine. Once I find out that a particular load works good at 100 yds on paper, I shoot it a lot at 200 and 300 yds, sometimes even 400 yds. I believe if it performs well there, and it kills coyotes graveyard dead, it is likely to show good results on the chronograph too. I can see a person wanting to do all that with the chronograph but I doubt it would improve my results which is all I am interested in doing.
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on June 12, 2011, 06:56 AM:
a cronograph can show many things and one I found of value is the FPS differance between primers. CCI BR's where slower and more SD than does winchester standard rifle primers in my guns. Got me to thinking if the CCI BR's are slower and more SD what is the point of paying more? I always thought BR primers where supposed to be better, but in "MY" guns the crono proved that to be wrong.
Posted by Duckdog (Member # 3842) on June 12, 2011, 07:09 AM:
Thanks for the welcome Dave.
Lolo...in the movie...was the place that the one brother would go to gamble and get drunk. Kind of a shady "dive", moonshine, buy a whore, kind of place.
Leonard, I don't mean to put TOO much emphasis on the cost savings...it was just ONE more aspect...for me.
Fact is...I'd still do it even if that wasn't the case. Like you say, with all the available components, you just can't buy factory stuff as "good" as handloads.
But...for volume shooting...you just can't escape the fact that it IS cheaper.
For the average coyote hunter and occasional plinker, the initial costs might never offset the price difference. It would take a long damn time if it ever did.
I don't like handloading for people either. And it's not just the liability either.
It's just like Leonard wrote. You've taken the time to custom taylor a "work up" for someone, and they're racking the bolt and throwing lead like the zombies are invading...never really appreciating the "work" that went into THAT work up.
The chrono IS the "de-liar" of loads...No doubt.
Right now, I have a 22/250 load that's shooting WAY faster than it "should" and I would have no idea it was if it weren't for the chrono.
There isn't a book out there that will tell me what I'm seeing on the chrono.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 12, 2011, 07:22 AM:
coyote whacker in your testing how much variance in FPS are you finding say between standard primers versus magnum primers?
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 12, 2011, 07:44 AM:
Kevin, yeah I know what your talking about now. If memory serves me correct, the town of Lolo is basically a hot springs, and yes I do think there is a bar there..Wasn't it Brad Pitt that was always in trouble ?
Good movie, doesn't rate with JJ..though..
If we get up there, this summer, I'll make a point to stop @ Lolo MT, and report back..
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 12, 2011, 09:59 AM:
quote:
a cronograph can show many things and one I found of value is the FPS differance between primers. CCI BR's where slower and more SD than does winchester standard rifle primers in my guns. Got me to thinking if the CCI BR's are slower and more SD what is the point of paying more? I always thought BR primers where supposed to be better, but in "MY" guns the crono proved that to be wrong.
coyote wacker
My understanding is that match primers have better quality control simply because they run the production line at half speed which lends itself to uniformity.
The way to check a standard deviation is by comparing CCI large rifle to CCI match large rifle; for instance. Everything else remaining the same. To compare different brands of primers is really hard to pin down and that's the reason I use Fed match primers in almost all shooting I do, that requires a large rifle primer.
A chronograph really is a valuable tool, but some trouble to set up and of course, I only use it for load development.
gh/lb
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 12, 2011, 11:23 AM:
Ken; Not coyotewhacker but I have been doing primer testing for sometime, I do it for most of the cartridges I load for...
You will see anywhere from a 50 fps up to 150 fps difference from one brand or type of primer..
The primer or brand you use dose'nt change youre S.D. that much, what makes youre S.D. change is the charge weight of powder you are useing at the time..
I did some major testing with my 20X47 Lapua since I had to work up my loads from scratch.
As I was working up my load for the cartridge I would see a increase in Vel. which is to be exspected, and I would also see the S.D. numbers go down as I approached max. charge. At max or just a grain or two past it the S.D. numbers would go back up.. So what this info tells me is my best load for this powder and bullet combo is just a hair before max. charge..
I've found by trying different primers you can get a powder thats so so to work a little better by changeing the brand of primer and also by going up or down in youre powder charge weight.. A bullets seating depth also plays a part but I usually settle for .30 off from the lands and just do the rest of my tuneing by makeing a change in primers.. I have one cartridge I load alot for but in different rifles with different bullets and weights. Each rifle has its preference of what powder, bullet or primer it likes.. Neck tension also plays a part on what primer you use, if you have light neck tension a mellow primer(standard) maybe a better choice over a match primer or magnum primer and canbe just the oppisite with heavey neck tension..
Not all primers are equal some burn hotter than others.. When a primer is set off its already generateing pressure inside youre chamber and is starting to send the bullet on its way before the powder has ignited ( how much depending on neck tension and powder burn rate)...
Anyway just another way of tweeking to get a more uniform load ...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 12, 2011, 11:41 AM:
We all have our methods.
I do not work up a load with a bullet and powder charge and change primers after I have reached max.
The place to change primers is on load work up, not once you get there. I really feel that primers is the least significant component. Use one and if the limit is reached at 40.0 grains, then possibly a different primer will reach that threshold with 39.7 grains? Well, now you have a pressure threshold, but is the velocity consistant and is it higher or lower MV?
I trust the 210Match primer. I switch for two reasons. First, my 300Win Mag uses winchester primers, just because. Second, I occasionally use RP primers for cartridges used in different rifles just because I can keep them separated in the field and especially sorting empties on the bench. edit: because of the color, for those that have not used RP primers, it is the only one that has a brass color while the rest are silver. Deprimed you can tell the difference by the anvil.
gh/lb
[ June 12, 2011, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 12, 2011, 12:06 PM:
Youre right Leonard if you change primers you need to reduce the load and work back up..
Here is a primer test done with my 22-250 ackley.
The bullet was a 52 gr. A-max with 39.6 gr. of N-540 and testing was done on same day.
Primer: Win. vel. 3920 (.54 var)
Rem 9 1/2 vel. 3900 (.82 var.)
CCI BR2 vel. 4060 (.27 var)
Fed.210 vel. 4100 (.36 var) Best group
Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 12, 2011, 12:23 PM:
I also like the Federal match 210 primer, in fact it's my go to large rifle primer..
Not sure why ? I just seem to have the best luck with 'em..I figure if it ain't broke then don't fix it..
(Edit) I do think its best to select whatever primer and just stick with it during load development..
[ June 12, 2011, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Dave Allen ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 12, 2011, 01:04 PM:
Tim, N540 is a powder I don't have on hand, but I would have liked to include it in the initial work up, for velocities. I have 8 pounds of 2700 so it would be nice to have a rifle that likes it.
gh/lb
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 12, 2011, 01:20 PM:
Leonard I see that 2700 is almost the same burn rate as N-540 so I'd say you have that burn rate covered but I've also found you can have two powders almost the same and get different results.. Hopefully the 2700 works for you..
I could send you a small sample of powder to try but not sure if I would have to put hazmatt on it... Do you know if there is a minimum limit I can send or does'nt it matter????
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 12, 2011, 01:35 PM:
Thanks, but I really think I can find something satisfactory with what I have on hand. Then, when I make a decision, I can order a quantity specifically for this rifle. I may try different bullets?
But when I buy, I will probably get at least three pounds from the same lot.
The load data I have was done with 55 VMax and I have these on hand along with a box of the Berger 62's. I have lighter bullets, but because of the tight neck and long throat on this barrel, I do not like the idea of that much jump to rifling.
gh/lb
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 12, 2011, 02:34 PM:
Yep I feel the same way, don't like to have too much free-bore.. I do have two rifles that have alot of free-bore. One is a 17 mach-4 and not much canbe done about it but it still shoots well enough even with alot of free-bore. I also have a Rem. 788 in 22-250 with a clip so I don't have much of a choice with this one either unless i would make it into a single shot. This rifle will shoot 1/4-1/2" on most days so no complaint there...
I've always liked to test other powders so I have alot on hand and when it came down to chooseing a hunting load I always got by with one or two powders. N-140/N-540 for the 17 rem.s,22-250, 22-250 ackley, 6mm H.L.S, 17 pred., and Ram-shot big game also works well for a main powder or back-up.. And for my mach-4 and 221 f.b. I get buy with h-335 and have AA2230 as back up which also works well in the 17 rem.s with 25 gr. bullets..
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 12, 2011, 02:45 PM:
Ken, I mean Festus, I got almost a hundred fps more with WSR primers than I was getting with Fed 205 Match primers in my 204.
I use Fed 210Match primers in my 22-250, 243AI and in my 308. I've never tried any other but am happy with the results I get.
My 223's I load hot and since they are for AR's, I'm more concerned with primers piercing than having a slam fire but I use CCI #41 mil spec primers. I have used Fed 205M and WSR primers without much difference in velocity but when I went to the 77 gr SMK's I knew the CCI 41's would take the most pressure.
Al, sounds like you've got a system that works for you.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 13, 2011, 03:55 PM:
Thanks Tim and Tom.
I have used Win 748 in my 223 for years. I use Rem 7 1/2 primers, but recently used CCI 450 primers and got good results.
I use Varget and Benchmark. Varget for my buddies 204, Benchmark for my 6 WOA.
Anyone use Varget or Benchmark using CCI 450 primers?
Tom have you used those 77mks on any fur?
[ June 13, 2011, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Ken ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 13, 2011, 04:46 PM:
223 loads? Just about everything but the kitchen sink. I use whatever I happen to have, leftovers, primers, bullets and powders, doesn't seem to matter, they all go bang and they are all equally inaccurate. (right, Lance?)
More suited for emptying magazines down a hallway, than killing a varmint with one shot.
We probably can't think of a load that hasn't been tried for the 223 Remington.
gh....lb
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 13, 2011, 07:53 PM:
Ken, I have had pretty good luck with the 77SMK's on coyotes. The first time I used them I called a double, the first one I punched in the chest head on, minimal 22 cal hole no exit. The second one turned and ran, I stopped him and he turned sideways and I centered on the shoulder, looked like it pushed the complete shoulder out the other side while leaving the leg dangling.
Very opposite results but at least it didn't splash on the shoulder. I've had normal kills when hit right and have had a few run a bit if hit wrong. I need to practice my running shots instead of looking for a magical bullet. But I like them.
That Benchmark will boost velocity and get better accuracy than w748 with 50-55 gr bullets. I'm using TAC with the 77's and running them around 2750 fps depending on which gun.
They do well out to 400 yards which is about as far as I've shot them. I tried matching the MK262 load but fall just a bit short as Black Hills uses a powder not available to the public.
I've got a few 77 gr Nosler's loaded up and they aren't quite as accurate but are supposed to be a bit more exploasive. I have them loaded for my 16" Colt light weight chrome lined AR's and get decent accuracy but haven't killed anything with them yet.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 13, 2011, 08:11 PM:
What's the reason for hunting coyotes with a 223? Are you convinced it's the best choice, or what? Are you just killing them, or do you pull fur?
My opinion is that a 223 is marginal, but I don't know anything about 77 grain bullets?
Your velocities seem very high?
gh....lb
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 13, 2011, 08:28 PM:
Leonard, I have killed very few coyotes the last 2 years with AR's. I've been messing with the 243AI and 22-250 in bolt guns remember? But I love my AR's and they get the job done.
The 77 gr bullets turn the mouse gun into a giant killer. With deer, hogs, coyotes and dope growers on the agenda, I feel comfortable with them.
My load is safe and I've gone a half a grain higher but my Krieger barrel has a tight chamber and tops out faster than my Noveske.
Here's a target over the Ohler with the 17" Krieger barrel.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 13, 2011, 08:33 PM:
Okay, I didn't know you were a fellow Oehler owner? We usually have data we can back up. Carry on.
gh...lb
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 13, 2011, 08:40 PM:
Thanks Tom I will give Benchmark a try, someone else I know said the samething.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 13, 2011, 08:41 PM:
Well not quite, I have a good friend who owns one, mine is a PACT or something without the tape. But I do keep targets, velocities and such when working on loads. Not really to back up my findings but so I can remember what I found...
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 13, 2011, 08:45 PM:
Ken TAC is even slighty better than Benchmark but since you have it on hand I wouldn't worry about it but when you run out, TAC is hard to beat.
Posted by Ken (Member # 3065) on June 13, 2011, 08:57 PM:
I have 8 lbs of the stuff and use it for my 6WOA.
One of my other hunting partners using nothing but TAC and swears by it.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on June 14, 2011, 05:26 AM:
Leonard I forgot, I don't pull fur on our coyotes usually. I have and still do on occasion but my local fur buyer won't buy them except about every 10 years it seems and even then it's about $5.00 and I ain't messing with them for that.
The best coyote killer I've found, given fur damage and no runners has been the 243AI and the 75 gr V-max. But given I've shot a few million rounds through an AR, I'm a bit clumsy with a bolt rifle. Though I am working on that.
The AR is to me, the best coyote gun out there and the 77's hit with authority so that's why I use the 223. I know they chamber better rounds in AR barrels but I hate chasing brass and 223 brass is plentiful.
I mean heck, I started out with a 22 magnum then courted the 222 Rem. for a while.
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on June 14, 2011, 11:08 AM:
I hunt coyotes with a .223 because I can't find a reason not to. Of the 50 or so I shot last winter, a handful were over 200 yards. I got a bit distracted with my WSSM and started picking longer stands because of it. I passed on lots of the tight shit that I would normally call when packing my red dot equipped machine gun. I need to remember the reason for having more than one calling rifle is so I can be versatile and not limit myself to one set of parameters or the other.
On another note, I went and played with my Ackley before it got hot and I believe I'm onto something sweet. With H4831SC I got to 3450 fps and 1 hole accuracy with the 75 grain AMax, with acceptable pressure. Pretty much what I was looking for. Maybe a little fine tuning to go, but for the most part I think I'm there.
Tried some new Superformance in the WSSM and got some impressive speed numbers, like 3650 fps with a 65 grain bullet. Time will tell about the accuracy, not real impressed with what I saw this morning, but I might be able to figure something out. This Superformance seems to like being compressed just a little. Speed really jumped when the case got full. We shall see...
Edited to correct my spelling and keep Dan off my ass.
[ June 14, 2011, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: jimanaz ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 14, 2011, 01:48 PM:
What is the "Ackley"? Is that a 243?
gh....lb
Posted by jimanaz (Member # 3689) on June 14, 2011, 02:06 PM:
No sir. 22-250
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