The New Huntmastersbbs!: Dan Carey

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 23, 2009, 07:07 PM:

Do you make any lightweight 204 uppers? Im thinking of getting one for calling. I like my CZ 527, 20" light barrel. Its about the perfect size and weight. It would be nice to have an upper for my AR about that same contour.

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 23, 2009, 08:42 PM:

I can and have built light weight uppers in both 223 and 204. They seem to shoot OK until they start to get hot. By OK I mean 1/2" groups, when the barrel is too hot to hold in your hand you can expect 1" groups.

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 23, 2009, 09:06 PM:

Nothing wrong with that!! How does this work? If i decide to do it, do I send you my lower?

It may be easier if I call you should I decide to get one?

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 23, 2009, 09:08 PM:

BTW, it would be strictly for calling. I doubt it would ever be fired more than 3-4 shots in a row. Sure no more than 5 since thats all my hunting mag holds...

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 23, 2009, 11:06 PM:

Andy, don't you think we already have enough people out there hunting with assault rifles?

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 23, 2009, 11:15 PM:

I couldnt help myself LB. When Shaw went AR, I had to get one. It is fun to shoot. Ever tried one?

I tell ya what is really a blast. I got a 22lr adapter. Change the magazine from 223 to 22lr and change the bolt carrier and in the span of a minute, literally, you can shoot 223 and 22lr. Great for plinking in the backyard.

They are fast handling, light, easy to shoot, I dont know whats not to like about an AR. Im thinking about getting another one. But for now, I think I would like a 204 upper. Mine is 223, 16" carbine.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 24, 2009, 08:01 AM:

Andy,
Leonard is an old fart that is set in his ways, sorta like me ya know? We prefer "hunting rifles" for our hunting. AR's are assault rifles. Ugly things. I see a lot of young callers spending money for special stocks and other ugly crap to make their shotguns look like assault weapons too. Crazy, the whole dang world has gone crazy. Me and Leonard are maybe the only ones in the calling world that are still sane. LOL [Big Grin]

Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on May 24, 2009, 09:22 AM:

Rich,

I may not be as old as you two coots, but all of my rifles look like rifles should, and so do all of my shotguns.

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 24, 2009, 10:55 AM:

Thanks alot guys. I buy one "assault" rifle, well two, and all the sudden Im thrown under the bus.

If it makes any of you old coots, you too Tim, feel any better, I havent hunted with it yet. Its just a safe piece and plinker so far.

Gotta get ready for the revolution ya know!

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 24, 2009, 12:19 PM:

Mini-14s!!!!!!
'Half minute of coyote' accuracey @ 100 yards. Call 'em in close & bang-flop 'em with a politicaly correct rifle!!!!

Sorry guys,........ I couldn't resist. I'll go quietly now....

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2009, 12:34 PM:

Freedom of speech is a dangerous thing. First it's just messing with AR's, and before you know it, somebody is touting Mini14's, with a straight face. Aught to have his mouth washed out with soap! For shame! The worst club made in America! I'd sooner use an SKS, and I am not kidding about that part.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 24, 2009, 12:47 PM:

Really LB? I got an SKS too. Next time we get together I will bring it for you. [Razz]

Honestly KOKO, we all know that you cant hit a coyote at 100 yards with one of those damn things.... [Razz]

My neighbor has a Mini 14 and loves it. He doesnt do anything with it but shoot at some cans, notice I said shoot AT. I dont have the heart to tell him the truth everytime he starts in on it. He offered it to my youngest last deer season. I started to tell him that I really wanted him to hit a deer not just shoot AT it. [Smile]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 24, 2009, 03:53 PM:

"I may not be as old as you two coots, but all of my rifles look like rifles should,"
-----------------------------
Well I don't know about the truth of that there statement now Tim. I saw a photo of you in your cactus chaps, and carrying a dang carbine that only had maybe a five foot long barrel on it. With THAT buger, a man wouldn't need any ammo even. Just whack em with end of the dang barrel.

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 24, 2009, 05:17 PM:

Did ya'll fight the invention of the automobile just as hard?

And for clarification, the AR-15 variants are not assault weapons. By definition they would need to be select fire unless you are a liberal. Have you heard, everyone but winchester makes one now and then of course they are owned by FN who builds the M16.

Change is good, one mag at a time! [Big Grin]

[ May 24, 2009, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 24, 2009, 07:00 PM:

AR's are not assault weapons? Shit! I didn't know? I think I've been mislead by the Democrats?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Aznative (Member # 506) on May 25, 2009, 05:09 AM:

Leonard, don't you live in Kommyfornia. Are you sure your just not jealous of those of us that live in free states and can own such fine firearms. We can actually hunt with them too.

I went with the AR for strictly logical reasons. Calling predators sometimes offers the opportunity to harvest multiple animals at the same time. The best weapon to engage multiple animals that may be running is a light recoiled semiautomatic rifle that is accuarte; thus, Mini14s need not apply.

I too use to dislike these types of guns. I use to call them starwars guns because of their modern spaceage look. It also didn't help that the AR gave our troups so much trouble in SE Asia. Because of this distaste for ARs, I started calling with an HK-630. Here is a link that will show you a pic of these fine weapons:
http://www.hkpro.com/hk630.htm

After two seperate trips to HK for repairs, I started changing my mind for three reasons. First, the repairs took 9 months to complete. Second, they stopped making these guns about two decades ago and spare parts have to be getting scarce. Lastly, my friends that had purchased ARs were having so much fun. I decided to make the HKs safe queens to be sold when I need a down payment for my next pickup.

I went with the AR-15s because they work great. They have great accuracy. There have been 10s of millions of them made, and they are made to a mil spec. This means the parts are standarized and will be available for the next several milleniums.

So what is wrong with being logical and practical. BTW: I believe a court ruled that the Kommyfornia's legislature's errored giving the attorney General powers to ban weapons at whim. The result of this court ruling is that you can now buy ARs that were not specifically mentioned in the origianl bill. There are a lot of fine weapons that can now be had legally in your state. Getem while you can. Snooze you lose.

Posted by Dusty Hunter (Member # 1031) on May 25, 2009, 10:10 AM:

Quote: "AR's are not assault weapons? Shit! I didn't know? I think I've been mislead by the Democrats?"
Leonard, You might have something there. They're not assault weapons, they're homeland defense rifles.

Edited for spelling

[ May 25, 2009, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Dusty Hunter ]

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on May 25, 2009, 07:20 PM:

"They're not assault weapons, they're homeland defense rifles. "

They sure are and you can hunt with em too! [Eek!]

Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on May 28, 2009, 04:41 PM:

Andy: I have a .223 in 16" also. Nice little rifle but not really a good calling option with the short barrel and decreased ballistics.

I have talked to Dan about doin something with mice also. I would like a .204 upper but already have a .204 (duh)

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 28, 2009, 04:51 PM:

Decreased ballistics???

100fps under a 20" barrel might be decreased but certainly not to the point of having bullets bounce off anything.

All 3 of mine wear 16" tubes and seem to work fine as a calling gun.

Posted by browning204 (Member # 821) on May 29, 2009, 09:45 AM:

I'm sorry, I should have said accuracy. My mistake.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2009, 11:17 AM:

In my opinion, you were right, in the first place. Pound for pound, short barrels are just as, if not more accurate than longer barrels. And, of course, a sixteen inch barrel (in AR config.) will have a substantial reduction in velocity over a more standard 24" bolt gun; rather than the already mentioned 20". Wildass guess, 200fps? For some, it might matter, and for others, it might not? It doesn't even come close to what I want in a "calling gun". Granted, there are numerous versions of the "perfect" rifle for daylight stands, but a "16 AR in wide open terrain where the shots could vary from 25 yards to 300+; not (my) best choice.

Good hunting. LB

edit: whatever floats your boat, ya know? But, I can't think of a logical reason for an extremely short barrel? I mean, is it to save an ounce or two in weight, or snagging on the jungle underbrush, or what? Why might it be considered an advantage?

[ May 29, 2009, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 29, 2009, 02:18 PM:

Let's look at it form a different prospective. The 224 bullet was an accepted bullet for predators in the late 40's and 50 in a 22-250 and the swift. In the early 50's Remington brought out the 222 Rem. and a lot of the predator hunter tried it out on predators with some success. Then came the 223 and the rest is history.
Now comes the real truth. The 223 is a marginal caliber on predators. The Internet is littered with posts about poor hits made with the 223 and the predator left the scene wounded, never to be seen again. If you are going to kill an animal do it humanely. The swift has a hell of a lot more authority than a 223 will ever have. Now think about the 24 inch barrel 223 vs the 16 inch 223 and the loss of velocity. When you barely have enough at 24" you will have less than enough with a 16" plus all of the extra noise. In the hands of an accomplished shot the 223 will get the jobs done, but if he hunts a lot, not 100% of the time.

I have shot coyotes with about every known cartridge in the free world, and will always tell a new caller that I recommend a 243 Winchester for a first rifle. And yes I do use a 223 at times, but rely on my 6 WOA most of the time.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2009, 02:53 PM:

I cannot find a single flaw in that line of reasoning, Dan.

Oh, to quibble; I think that a 22-250 is an excellent choice for a beginner and it could well last you into retirement, but there is a lot a handloader can do with a 243, if he wants to choke it down for certain applications.

But, as far as a 223...yeah, I think it is very marginal, for the type of hunting I do in the western U.S.

All opinions welcome. LB

Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on May 29, 2009, 04:17 PM:

No flaw in Dan's nor Leonard's reasoning about a .243 for coyotes. 'Cause that's what I shoot!!
[Cool]

There is a lot of nonsense in the rest of the posts however. Of course an AR is an assault weapon, as is the .22 Calico Arms dolled up 10/22 clone I have with pistol grip and folding skeleton stock.

Don't you people know that assault rife is defined by the SHAPE of the HANDLE, not caliber nor rapidity of firing? Don't you read the newspapers, watch TV or listen to congressmen? Any Navy Seal would be happy assaulting anything with my .22 rimfire semi auto.

Along that line, military tanks are defined by paint. So if we paint a Volkswagen bug in camo, voila, it is a tank.

My .243 is a sane and conservative 600 Rem with an old fshioned wooden stock. That makes me better than you.

But I would kind of like to have a .338 Fed in an AR for hunting elk in rain forest jungle...

Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 29, 2009, 04:22 PM:

About the only "real truth" I could glean from Dans post, was indeed, the internet is littered with posts about bad hits and coyotes running off, the caliber used is of little consequence though. Ive seen run offs with .250s', .243s', .25s' and .30 cals....a bad hit, is a bad hit, regardless of claiber. It's not really a matter of the myth that coyotes are so tough, christ, they are a 25 pound animal, not a cape buffalo, it's that it can be tough, to hit them where they live because of the smaller vital area available.
On the contrary, my experience has lead me to the point where I believe the .223, to be "to much gun" for my particular style of predator hunting. Ive evolved to using small caliber, high velocity cartridges which serve me quite well. Most of the deer Ive taken over the years, as well as antelope were killed with my Ruger #3 carbine, chambered in .223 and using an 18" barrel, and the simple truth is, that little .223 killed them stone dead. The .223 is plenty of gun for predators,and which by the way, is the caliber I reccomend to new predator hunters for a first gun.......there's my opinion:)

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 29, 2009, 04:32 PM:

I'm certainly not gonna argue the facts stated by either Dan or Leonard, especially with a 243 AI coming in for a contest gun. I will say that a bad hit is a bad hit no matter the caliber.

I shot 2 coyotes this past winter with a 22-250 that ran off. One of them was hit head on in the chest with a 50 gr ballistic tip in the chest. He ran a couple hundred yards and as I watched in disbeleif he tripped and fell into a tree. I found the shot was on and still can't explain it.

The other one was also hit in the chest (I thought) with same and he ran 50-75 yards through the woods. I tracked him and spent way too much time but did find him and found my shot was off to the left, missing the vitals. He died but it took a while. Others may have quit looking, gone back home and wrote a summary on the net on how the BT bullets or the 22-250 is worthless...

Here's a pic of the miss.

As for the 16" AR'd 223, everyone knows I love em for a calling rifle, even used them in contest's before with no problems but if I had regular oppurtunities at over 200 yards, I'd not be as confident. As we've heard before you can call em to you or have the gun to take advantage of every oppurtunity.

FWIW (cause I don't like WAG's), my Sako 223 with 24"+ barrel shot 50 gr NBT at an average of 3408fps while my 16" AR averaged 3230 fps with the same load. I've killed more coyotes with the carbine AR's than any other gun or caliber but I know they are a compromise.

Still ain't had one bounce off.

[ May 29, 2009, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: TOM64 ]

Posted by Okanagan (Member # 870) on May 29, 2009, 06:04 PM:

Y'all got it all wrong. I have personally shot and hit coyotes that ran off when I was shooting a 6mm Rem., a .22-250 and .30-06. My main hunting partner shot one with a .300 Win magnum and it ran off. That proves a .223 isn't enough gun.

I got flamed big time and accused of despicableness of all sorts when I also wrote on another site that of the dozen or more coyotes that I've shot with a .22 rimfire, not one that I hit for sure has ever been lost, though a few ran a bit. That proves that a .223 is too much gun.

Minds that are prejudiced by experience rather than enlightened by the internet, gravitate to the boring old idea that where a bullet hits a critter has something to do with whether it kills him.

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on May 29, 2009, 06:14 PM:

Back in the late 70's, 2 of my uncles bought Winchester 9422Magnums. They killed lots of stuff with those and I wound up with one myself around 80. Killed quite a few coyotes with it being the only centerfire I had was a 30-30 that I later traded off for a .222 and the 222 killed em just as well. In fact the locals around where I grew up loved the 222 for night hunting (which was illegal) they favored the report as well as the terminal performance.

Add in the internet, 50 million more coyote hunters and now we're undergunned.

Posted by Dusty Hunter (Member # 1031) on May 29, 2009, 06:25 PM:

My personal preference is the smaller calibers also. I like the .17 Remington, the .204 and the .223. If I'm in mountain lion territory, I'll have my .22-250. I've had no problem killing coyotes with these calibers. The .204 is my favorite. That's my two cents worth on that subject. Now here's a definition of an assault weapon and AR15 doesn't fit that criteria unless you are a democrat using it for political reasons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_rifle

Quote:
Rifles that meet most of these criteria, but not all, are technically not assault rifles despite frequently being considered as such. For example, semi-automatic-only rifles that share designs with assault rifles such as the AR-15 (which the M-16 rifle is based on) are not assault rifles, as they are not capable of switching to automatic fire and thus not selective fire. Belt-fed weapons (such as the M249 SAW) or rifles with fixed magazines are likewise not assault rifles because they do not have detachable box magazines.

edited to add the quote

[ May 29, 2009, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Dusty Hunter ]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 29, 2009, 09:06 PM:

Yes a bad hit is a bad hit with just about any cal. you use but you will see more run offs on avr. from certain cartridges. One of the problems is the choice of bullets and the speed they are going at the time. Some bullets will perform great at close ranges (100-200)but are'nt worth a dam at a longer distance and vise versa.. The group i hunt with uses everything from 17 Rem up to 300 Win mag. and i keep track of what bullets are used and the Cal. and also the end results. 3 of the guys in the group have used the AR chambered in 223 includeing myself. As of last year none of the members no longer use the AR or the 223 cartridge on coyotes..
One member switched over to the 204 and his kills have gone up and he is haveing fewer cripples but still has a problem with the bullets he is useing. (splash affect)
Two of the others have gone to a 243 savage and have also increased there number of kills and are killing more at longer distances.. We still see a few cripples every year comeing from the guys toteing the 243's but most of the cripples they shoot are running shots so its tobe exspected.
I hunted this winter with a buddy and he wanted to use his AR for a day since it was his day off from work and he did'nt have to be as serious..
Anyway we had a pair comeing in and they got close, my buddy took the first shot cause i could not see the coyotes from my location. I hear a shot so i'm ready incase one comes into my view and one did. I got a quick shot off as it ran by and i hit the coyote and put it down.
My buddy gets up and i asked him where the other coyote was and he said gone, it ran off when i shot at the first one that came in, and this was the same coyote i shot.. It turned out the bullet from the AR bounced off of the shoulder and left a nasty surface wound without doing any inside damage.
On another stand later that day he took a longer poke at a coyote and knocked it down and the coyote got up and ran off..LOL
The 223 should of killed the first coyote but the bullet being used was'nt up to the task at hand..LOL
Any way the performance is more of a hit and miss with the 223 and like Leonard and other stated there are better choices.. [Razz]

Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on May 29, 2009, 09:09 PM:

I think I have seen this same debate on the internet before? [Confused]

Like maybe 800 times. [Big Grin]

Carry on boys. Everybody knows that a 223 is maximum gun for coyotes though.... [Eek!]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 29, 2009, 09:46 PM:

Yeah, 800 times, at least?

As night follows day, as soon as you say that a 223 is marginal, it's like worms crawling to the surface after a hard rain, we get all these testimonials claiming that; "why, a 223 is perfectly adequate, kills them dead" etc. followed by the observation that, "bad hits are bad hits regardless of the caliber."

It would be funny; okay, it is, and does strike me as very funny stuff!

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on May 30, 2009, 06:05 AM:

"One problem is the choice of bullets..........."

TA17REM does bring up a valid point.

Seems like every time that I meet somebody and they find out that I'm a predator hunter ('coyote warrior' as per June Pred. Xtreme) I hear the "Ah was hunt'n elks with my XXX Mag and a coyote came by and ah shot it and it runned off. Them coyotes is TOUGH!!!!"

A bit of thought on the subject and it becomes apparent that a bullet designed for elk will zip through a 30 pound coyote so fast that the bullet doesn't even have time to think "Wasn't I supposed to DO something back there, like.... expand or something??"

Having enough energy and transfering it to the proper place in the target is what kills coyotes (and elks).

Posted by Dusty Hunter (Member # 1031) on May 30, 2009, 07:12 AM:

I just did a search and it is 816 times to be exact. If we all thought alike, there would be no need for these websites. It's just fodder that keeps the website going.

Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on May 30, 2009, 09:33 AM:

I didn't address bullet construction in my post, nor did I address ones ability to hit the target in question. Not pointing a finger, but some people just can't shoot worth a shit and wound a lot of animals whether the be elk or prairie dogs. 224 bullet construction in the early 50's was for the most part directed at the high velocity 22-250 and the Swift. So the re-loader didn't have access to the SX or TNT's that came in the next few years. That would mean we were using a bullet with a heavier jacket 222 Rem. The results on coyotes were for the most part positive. Now we have a multitude of different bullets to choose from. The Hornady VMax bullet is called a varmint bullet, not a predator bullet. They have exhibited spectacular results on prairie dog sized varmint. And some less than good results on coyotes. I have used them on coyotes for years and have had fairly good results. I also use Hornady bulk 55 grain soft point bullets with better results. The 55 grain Sierra Game King bullet will give great results on average size coyotes with an exit hole most of the time on a lung shot, the VMax never seems to exit on a lung shot, but will splash on a shoulder hit. My point my first post was to point out what I think about calibers used to kill coyotes, humanely.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on May 30, 2009, 10:59 AM:

If i was going to use a 223 for coyotes there is one bullet that comes to mind for a choice and that wouldbe a 42 or 52 gr. Calhoon double H.P.
The bullet was designed for cartridges that just don't have enough steam to kill coyote effectively.. The bullet won't stand up to high vel. rifles like the 22-250 but work great in the smaller rounds.. Steve Craig and Geordie are both useing this bullet as far as i know, so maybe they can chime in on how well its working for them..
I found with the Ballistic tips you get mixed results, one it splashes on close up shots but may work well at a longer distance, ( not going fast enough to blow it up on the surface)but will penitrate deep enough to kill the coyote.
A 52 gr. A-Max for example works great out of my 22-250 ackley going 3900-4000 fps but shooting it out of a 22-250 or a 223 at a lower vel. the bullet will splash or not come apart when its inside the animal..
Be willing to try a few other weights and brands before you decide on what you will use to kill coyotes clean...

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 30, 2009, 11:32 AM:

Well, of course, the issue of bullet construction is important. I can cite chapter and verse of a wide range of bullet weights and designs in every caliber suitable for predators. A minue later, sombody will claim wonderful success with a bullet that I believe to be an utter failure. Go figure.

Good hunting. LB

PS ....at 223 velocities and close to moderate ranges, I have had reliable performance using Hornady VMax 55 grain bullets. To me, reliable performance means killing the beast dead without regard for the salvageability of the pelt.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on June 05, 2009, 10:12 AM:

"Well, of course, the issue of bullet construction is important. I can cite chapter and verse of a wide range of bullet weights and designs in every caliber suitable for predators. A minue later, sombody will claim wonderful success with a bullet that I believe to be an utter failure. Go figure."
----------------------------------
Now that right there is a huge fact! People refuse to listen if you get my drift. I see that my friend Tim is back to using target bullets for coyotes, and that boy should know better by now. Dan Carey may be a total failure in public relations, but at least he knows a good coyote bullet for a .223 0r .22-.250. (55 grain Sierra Game King). "Game King" is the one now, NOT their "Varminter". Varmint bullets such as Blitz King, SX and the like are for prairie dogs or gophers. Match grade bullets have thin jackets, so are not reliable performers on coyotes either..Even the Nosler bullet company clearly advertises their ballistic tip line in two main categories. Ballistic tip "varmint", and ballistic tip "hunting". Use the "hunting" bullets for coyotes, and save the "varmint" bullets for mice & gophers. [Wink]

Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on June 05, 2009, 11:17 PM:

quote:
Match grade bullets have thin jackets, so are not reliable performers on coyotes either

I shot the Hornaday 22 cal. 53 gr. hp match bullet for 19 years. 3800 fps and you could count the number of runners,spinners, or just plain lost coyotes on both hands. Just my experience.

Randy

Posted by Steve Craig (Member # 12) on June 06, 2009, 06:50 AM:

I guess I'm with the "old timers" here. I like a rifle to look like a rifle.
But I also feel a guy needs to use enough gun to do the job and then a little more.
I just depends on what that job is!
Saving hides for fur is one.
Killing coyotes in May and June for ADC is another.
Killing coyotes on a contest hunt is other also.

What about that bobcat or grey fox that shows up.
I always cringe when I see a guy shot an $800 (last years price, $200 this years) with a 243 and 85grBTHP's. Said cat is now an $40 animal with the best of sewing. Or the fox is now literally cut in half with only front and back legs and a tail left.

I like and use both kinds of calibers. I carried both in the truck for years, depending on the stand, habitat called etc., determined what i took to the stand with me. If fairly open areas and expecting no bobcats, and fur prices up, then i used the 250. When coyotes prices were off like they will be this year, then I went with the 243, and dont care to skin then for $2.
If in bobcat and fox habitat, then I usually carried a 17.
Today, I use the 221 Fireball for fox and bobcats, and I know a coyote is not safe to 200 yards, yet i can still get a bullet(the right kind) through the brush without it exploding on a branch like I have had a 17 do too many times over the years.

Calibers and bullets, just depends on what you want them to do for you. I see it simply as a very personal thing. Whatever floats your boat.

I still like a rifle to look like a rifle however!
FWIW

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 06, 2009, 08:41 AM:

In response to AR Shaw, I also used the 53 gr. Hornady Match for many years in a 220 Swift. I never had a problem with it, although, during those years, when that was my main; (scratch that: only) predator gun, I also used the 52 Speer Gold Match with equal success.

So, it is a bit complicated. Use what you have confidence in and sleep peaceful.

Good hunting. LB

PS, hey, I remember when YOU also prefered traditional rifles. Well, I know you have your reasons.....

Posted by RagnCajn (Member # 879) on June 06, 2009, 12:11 PM:

In my first swift, I used 55 Nosler BT. Did a jam up good job. It was a heavy barrel that was used on Prarie dogs and would sub out on coyotes with the same load.

When I got another swift, I went with the 60 grain Serra HP so as not to get the two loads confused as to which gun they went with. That was a terrible load for coyotes. Out of 8-10 coyotes shot with it that year, all were runners and I lost 3-4 of them.

I then switched over to the 52 SMK. I plan to wear that gun out and never change. The only fur damage I have ever had with it was a center chest shot that exited the shoulder due to angle. The coyote was 5 yards away when the bullet hit. I shot a fox at about 15 yards and had a dime sized exit. All coyotes hit with it have fallen in sight.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 06, 2009, 12:44 PM:

Yeah, you know what, Randy? I have a Ruger M77 chambered in 220Swift, first year of mfg. Not the best accuracy, at this point, (never was a one holer) but I use the 63 gr. Sierra Semipointed which is a longer bullet and can be seated further out.

My grandson has claimed it but I'm not giving it up, just yet. It's reliable, and my loaner.
Actually, I have two.
#71-15,XXX (rebarreled) and
#71-38,XXX (original)

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 07, 2009, 08:35 PM:

Leonard.I bought my 1st & only Swift in February of this year it's also a M77 I ran the serial number @ Ruger's web page it would appear it was produced in 1980 or 1981..What was the 1st year of mfg ?? I could google I guess but i'd rather make good conversation.

Gotta love those "tang" safety Ruger's..

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 07, 2009, 09:54 PM:

Dave, I could be wrong? Happened before. But, I think the first two numbers might be year of mfg.? No?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 07, 2009, 10:01 PM:

Okay, wrong again!!!! Both of mine were made in 1975. One I bought new, and the other I have had for about fifteen years, maybe twenty? and I'm the third owner.

Good hunting. LB

[ June 07, 2009, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Dave Allen (Member # 3102) on June 07, 2009, 10:39 PM:

Yeah..I thought the same thing about the 1st two digit's.Mine start's with 75 then the other 5 digit's so I assumed it was made in 1975 lol..

Here's what she look's like,not too bad for a 28-29 year old rifle.IMO..

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