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Author
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Topic: Fire forming loads (AI)
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 21, 2009 09:03 PM
Well I wound up with a bolt action 243 and I sent it off to come back 243AI. Question is, what's the best way to fire form cases? Figured I'd use up a box of cheap bullets I have here but have a buddy who uses cream of wheat or such?
Suggestions?
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted May 21, 2009 09:19 PM
I used to just take and load them up and shoot them to fireform but with all the shortages lately i switched over to the cream of Wheat method.
In youre case though you may want to just load them up with the bullet you intend to use for hunting and use them for such.. Some of the 243 acklys i worked with were pretty accurate with a fireform load..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5617 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 21, 2009 09:23 PM
Had a 25-06AI that was very accurate with FF loads. Best I remember it made a nice full case but my buddy says he has to fire his twice using the COW method to get a good case. I would rather waste a box of bullets once... figure the fire going twice would cost me an early barrel.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted May 21, 2009 09:33 PM
He maynot be useing a high enough charge of powder or getting the wadd packed enough. My gunsmith reccomends liquid glass for sealing the mouth of the case.
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5617 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted May 22, 2009 01:32 AM
I have two AIs and I load up hunting loads of standard ammo and just hunt with it. A 243 is a fine gun the way it is. Hunt with them and save your brass. Soon you can load up the AIs.
Or target shoot of course. Point being, you dont have to do anything special and you will be surprised at how accurate they are.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 22, 2009 11:37 AM
I have a slightly different attitude about the subject. If you want performance , why spend a season shooting (accurate) but rather pedestrian loads equiv. to factory 243?
Point two. Why waste a good percentage of the most accurate rounds available in your custom barrel, barrel life?
My solution is to use whatever you might call blank loads. You use a fast burning rate powder, suitable for either shotgun or handgun or a low volume cartridge, whatever you have on hand. Same old story, start low and work up to a level that forms the shoulder.
I do not use a filler of creme of wheat because some of that stuff falls back down into the barrel and then you can have dents in the case walls of the following charge(s)
I use a small square of rolled up newsprint stuffed into the neck of the cartridge and point the barrel vertically into a baffle.
Sometimes, it requires a second charge for the first experimental cartridges. My guess is that I use way less than a half pound of powder and a hundred+ primers.
The advantage is that you don't need to go to the range and you don't waste 100 rounds of barrel life, and you don't waste a season shooting animals with inferior ammunition.
Works for me. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32366 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Az-Hunter
Hi, I'm Vic WELCOME TO THE U.S. Free baloney sandwiches here
Member # 17
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posted May 22, 2009 01:21 PM
I use the fireform load for hunting also. I could be out there like pluto in my thinking, but I believe the hot gas blowing past the leade and throat with COW or other filler fireform loads, would be just as harmful to the barrel life as just shooting FF loads for hunting or range work?
I can see reason in both camps, but surely can't see the FF hunting loads as inferior, for in most instances, an AI case will deliver 150fps more than the parent case, hardly inferior, but if you are performance minded, I guess any little bit makes a difference?
Posts: 1670 | From: 5 miles west of Tim | Registered: Jan 2003
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
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posted May 22, 2009 01:40 PM
At the ranges my shooting takes place, I dont think it makes a bit of difference.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 22, 2009 02:12 PM
Okay Vic, point well taken, however; if you go to the trouble to chamber for an improved or wildcat, I guess that most people believe it to be worth the bother?
HOWEVER
I also agree that for most applications and most daylight stands, it's pretty much a joke. A 243 is enormously capable of dumping any coyote that ever lived, at ranges inside (oh) 250 yards, or so.
My application is mostly for longer ranges and it is a definate aid in using a flat shooting cartridge thus eliminating some guesswork on holdover.
The other consideration is, (of course) better case life with a 40º shoulder. I speak with some authority since I used a 220Swift the first fifteen years on coyotes. That cartridge gets the job done, but it is labor intensive, in comparison. The necks need constant attention because they get longer and need trimming to length, and then you start getting split necks, etc. An Ackley needs no trimming to length after repeated reloads. I have never trimmed the neck on an Ackley cartridge in about twenty-five years of experience. Again, in comparison, a 270W or a 220Swift needs to be checked with every cycle of reloads.
That's my story, and I'm sticking to it. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32366 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 22, 2009 02:20 PM
I just remembered something useful.
The first 4 or 5 Ackleys I used, this guy would cut a chamber in a junk barrel (with the same reamer he used on my barrel) and screwed it on a POS loaner rifle for me. I could go to the range with full fireforming loads (with bullets) and do 100 rounds in an hour, easy. He retired and I never found anybody willing to go to the trouble, since. But, it's an outstanding service...hint hint, Dan.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32366 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted May 22, 2009 02:40 PM
For fireforming, I just use factory loads during my 100 shot barrel break in period cleaning between each shot for the first 20 rounds, then cleaning between every 2 shots for the next 20 rounds, then cleaning between every 3 shot between the next Blah Blah Blah: It must work because I read on the internet you HAD to do that to a new barrel
Leonard, I knew we were like minded. Did I just type that on an open forum?
Any way, the last AI that I had built was a 25-06.
I sent the guy the rifle and asked him to set the barrel back, chamber to AI and return. I then used that barrel to form my brass. I returned the gun and had the new barrel installed.
I feel those 100 cases will last my life time with the gun.
I also have a 280 AI and a 22-250 AI and a 25-284.
In those AI's I fired factory loadings during sightin + a few others for giggles. I used these to work my load up. On every range trip before I began testing I would fire 2-4 more factory rounds to foul the barrel.
Now I have enough to begin hunting with or more testing. Any time I need to foul the barrel for more testing or hunting, after a cleaning, I fire more factory loads.
The 25-284 was a simple matter of necking down 6.5-284 Lapua and they were a perfect form before firing. The accuracy and velocity was good from the get go.
Posts: 362 | From: Shreveport LA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted May 22, 2009 02:51 PM
I used to do something similar with my 223AI. Back when 223 ammo was cheap, I would buy a couple hundred Winchester factory loads and shoot them to get my fireformed brass. They were fine for hunting and good brass.
Since my 25-06AI doesnt get fired nearly as much, I worked up standard loads and AI loads with the same bullet for hunting. Both work very well.
I really do like loading the AI better. Like LB said, not nearly as much neck trimming. I just neck size as well, most of the time. Seems like after 3-4 loadings they start getting tight and I gotta full size them.
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Andy
Posts: 2645 | From: Central Missouri | Registered: Apr 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 22, 2009 03:26 PM
Yeah, Randy. We sure do think alike. Not many people bother but it seems like a good way to go.... are you a Virgo, by chance?
Andy, I'm not an expert, by any means, but were I you, I would use a full length sizing die rather than a neck sizer; on an Ackley case. You just barely bump the shoulder of the case and they should not close hard when chambering. On the other hand, if you really like neck sizing, I'd get a Wilson neck sizer and a Wilson seating die. Back in the day, that was something else that my gunsmith did as a free service but nowadays, you can buy a 22-250Ackley Wilson seating die from Lock Stock and Barrel. If you want the best accuracy, use a straight line seating die and an arbor press. Spin conventional seated cartridges and straight line chamber type seated dies and you will see the difference.
Good hunting. LB
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
Posts: 32366 | From: Upland, CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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RagnCajn
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Member # 879
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posted May 22, 2009 03:38 PM
quote:
seems like a good way to go.... are you a Virgo, by chance?
Oh Puh-leeze
Posts: 362 | From: Shreveport LA | Registered: Jul 2006
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted May 22, 2009 04:31 PM
quote:
The first 4 or 5 Ackleys I used, this guy would cut a chamber in a junk barrel (with the same reamer he used on my barrel) and screwed it on a POS loaner rifle for me.
My gunsmith does very simular. He makes up a 6-8" barrel with the same chamber cut and this barrel is used for the c.o.w. method.
With the c.o.w. method you are not getting that much if any flame or heat to the throat of the barrel so you are'nt going to shorten its life buy useing this method.
My 22-250 ackley is set up for a switch barrel so when i decide to rebarrel i will use the old barrel for fireforming..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 22, 2009 04:35 PM
Plenty to ponder here...
I never much liked the 243 Winchester, always disappointed me when I got out the chronograph. Although I never lost a coyote this year with my 22-250 I did have to spend a few minutes looking for 2 of them. The gun isn't going to be a long range tack driver but rather a kill em now contest gun. As much as I hate trimming cases I figured AI to get it up to where it's supposed to be. If all goes well, my 22-250 will get the same treatment with a faster twist.
It's accurate enough but I had him punch the factory tube (for now) till I get really sold on the AI idea. He's setting it back, squaring things up and even rebluing. I will rebarrel later but I don't want to just FF 250 rounds in an afternoon and send it back in either.
So is it the bullet going down the tube or the flame that burns a barrel? I figure the flame but don't know.
Anything on sticking the bullet into the lands to FF for headspace issues?
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RagnCajn
ADDS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
Member # 879
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posted May 22, 2009 04:43 PM
Since I use factory cases, bullets in he lands dont apply. I do pull my ejector when forming. If the chamber ws cut properly, the neck shoulder junction will bejust a tad bit shorter on the AI.
This will allow the case to crush fit when closing.
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted May 22, 2009 04:43 PM
quote:
Anything on sticking the bullet into the lands to FF for headspace issues?
Thats a two answer question as well.
Some FF with the bullet into the lands and some don't. In my guns i don't seat the bullet into the lands, i just make sure i use a good stiff load..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
Posts: 5617 | From: S.D. | Registered: Jan 2006
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 22, 2009 04:45 PM
I'll say flame, but under pressure. ie: w/a bullet. A lot more pressure than the creme of wheat method.
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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Andy L
HI, I'M THE NEW MODERATOR OF THE CENTRAL MISSOURI FORUM, PULL MY FINGER!
Member # 642
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posted May 22, 2009 07:20 PM
LB, I have a neck sizer. Im just doing what my gunsmith told me to do. I figger he built the damn things. They do shoot good. They dont get tight until the 3rd or 4th loading. His theory is let them form to THAT chamber.
I dont know. I know another guy that swears by full length sizing too. Im sure no expert. My guns are hunting guns, smaller contour barrels, not target guns. They shoot good enough to kill and still carry very well.
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Andy
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted May 22, 2009 08:14 PM
By necksizeing you don't over work the brass. In my 22-250 ackley i have to bump the shoulder after 4-5 fireings. No big deal..
In my 17 pred. i just size the necks and so far i have had no reason to go back and bump the shoulder, it still chambers easey..matter of fact i only kneck size for all my other cartridges that i shoot..
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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TOM64
Knows what it's all about
Member # 561
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posted May 22, 2009 08:28 PM
My guns are hunting guns too Andy, yet still capable of decent accuracy. These 3 weigh 7 pounds ea. as shown. The 243 is the green one. well it used to be green.
Posts: 2283 | From: okieland | Registered: Feb 2005
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Leonard
HMFIC
Member # 2
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posted May 22, 2009 11:02 PM
Tim, with a cartridge that has a sharp shoulder , the "overworking the brass" when full length resizing doesn't have much overworking, at least when it's done right? Bump means just that, it's not setting the shoulder back because it doesn't gain much length with this design feature. But, just touching the shoulder, (a bump, as it is called) will keep your rounds chambering easily. You aren't really setting anything back, just maintaining the specs. And, if the neck is worked to the proper dimentions, in the first place, the case wouldn't need resizing at all, except for proper neck tension on bullets in the magazine. Maybe, you don't even need an expander ball, (again), depending? The only thing I have seen a couple times is what is known as a doughnut inside the neck at the junction of the neck and the shoulder. This would require inside neck reaming, should it occur, and assuming you seat bullets past that junction?
Anyway, I would give a modified version of full length resizing another look, neck sizing is not always the answer in a hunting application...especially the more burly cartridges like Randy's 280AI. An excellent choice, in a big game rifle, by the way. No flies on that baby.
Setting up the full length die, you want to screw it down on a fired case until you feel it touch and then maybe a sixteenth of a turn more; that should be all you need.
Good hunting. LB
[ May 22, 2009, 11:04 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
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EL BEE Knows It All and Done It All.
Don't piss me off!
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TA17Rem
Hello, I'm the legendary Tim Anderson, Southern Minneesota Know it all
Member # 794
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posted May 23, 2009 12:57 AM
Some good points Leonard.
I'm not sure if i got a bad die or maybe its just me but when i full-length resize or just bump the shoulder i start to get a case seperation in the webb area. I've set the die like you mentioned and still get to tight of a fit or i get the seperation if i adjust it any farther so i just resize the necks. I also don't use the exspanderball when i resize, just a universal decapping die.
For donuts i have no problem in the ackley but i do have to watch out for them in my 17 Pred. To slow it down on the Pred. i removed extra brass from the neck when the case was still in the 223 form.
Anyway you gave some good points..
[ May 23, 2009, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
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What if I told you, the left wing and right wing both belong to same bird!
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DAA
Utah/Promoted WESTERN REGIONAL Hunt Director
Member # 11
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posted May 23, 2009 05:55 AM
quote:
Anything on sticking the bullet into the lands to FF for headspace issues?
That's very much a "it depends" type question.
IF (and it's a big "if"), the 'smith knows what he is doing and headspaces the AI chamber properly, then no, there is no need to jam a bullet into the lands to hold head space during fireforming.
But... If the 'smith does NOT know what he is doing and head spaces the AI chamber to the parent cartridge specs (and this happens ALL the time, even with "big name" 'smiths), then you may need to do "something" (depending on exactly how much head space there is) to help hold head space during fireforming. Unfortunately, a lot of the time, simply jamming a bullet into the lands won't do it though - often the firing pin strike has enough energy to seat the bullet deeper before full ignition and then you end up with stretch marks after just a couple full house loads and wonder what-the-hell...
Best bet, is simply to make sure whoever is chambering the rifle knows how to deal with AI's, and have the chamber cut with some slight crush on your virgin brass. Then it's a complete non issue. But I've had otherwise extremely competent (like as in big match winner builders) NOT understand this concept and INSIST on doing it in what I consider to be the wrong way.
Seen lots of AI's cut what I consider to be improperly. Hell, I own a couple like that myself, 'smith just would NOT listen to me. I don't use him anymore...
- DAA
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"Oh yeah, they're gonna talk to you, and talk to you, and talk to you about individual freedom, but they see a free individual, it's gonna scare 'em." -- George Hanson, Easy Rider, 1969.
Rocky Mountain Varmint Hunter
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