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Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on February 10, 2009, 06:59 AM:
Im going to build a new rifle that will be used mostly for contest hunts. With that said Im leaning towards some type of 6mm. It seems like the 6x284 is pretty popular. Anything better or any cons to this round? Any help or ideas are greatly appreciated.
On another note...I have read somewhere what is thought to be the minimum amount of energy is needed to kill a coyote. Anybody know that number?
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on February 10, 2009, 09:21 AM:
Jeremey, my son and I have been discussing a new wildcat. We have decided on the 6.5 platform. A larger range of bullets and ballistics are better.
Looking at a 6.5-284 or a 6.5-06...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2009, 10:00 AM:
There are many choices available, JeremyMS. I used to own a 6/250AI and it was perfectly adequate for coyotes beyond reasonable range.
I curently use a 243Win and a 6mmRem and a 243AI. They are all capable of killing a coyote. But, beyond that case capacity, like the 6/284 that you mention.... the barrel life is usually very poor.
I have never seen the need for more velocity than what is available from one of the above choices? Some speed freaks would disagree but that's my opinion.
A plain vanilla 243 will kill a ton of coyotes without a bunch of case forming and expensive dies, but some people like the journey into exotics, ya know? But, once you've done it a few times, the thrill is gone.
A 6mmRem or a 243 is very serious coyote medicine, right off the shelf and will dump their dick in the dirt as well as any exotic; in my opinion. Plenty suitable bullets, too.
Every animal I killed in Africa, from Cape fox & wart hog to Kudu (size of elk) was with a 6mmRemington. You really cannot go wrong with a six; any six m/m.
Good hunting. LB
edit: forgot to mention that with the 6/284, you have one less cartridge in the magazine.
[ February 10, 2009, 10:04 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on February 10, 2009, 10:00 AM:
Andy, what bullets did you have in mind?
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on February 10, 2009, 10:04 AM:
Leonard,
Im currently using a plain 243 as a contest gun but I have the itch for something new and "faster".
Jeremy
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2009, 10:06 AM:
Then just get the 243AI, very hard to beat, in my opinion. Lots of load data available and the performance is damned near unbeatable.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on February 10, 2009, 10:41 AM:
How fast and what bullet are you shooting in your 243AI?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2009, 10:49 AM:
Well, you got me there! I'm still dicking around with fireforming. But, look here: http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek024.html
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 10, 2009, 11:34 AM:
I will also say go with the 243 ackley. Bullets from 58 gr. up to 85 gr. work very well on coyotes. You can also go heavier but then you could just as well go to a 25-06 instead..
If you get in a bind and run out of ammo then you could also shoot factory loads in the ackley..
The brass is easey to make and fireform and the ones i've been around shoot very good..
With the 243 ackley you will want to have a kenton BDC dial or the Leupold ballistic dots installed so you can take advantage of its range..
If you want a Hot-rod then look into a 257 Arnold, they shoot very fast and flat, but there won't be much of a coyote left if you hit one, so don't plan on getting the biggest dog award.. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2009, 12:01 PM:
Yeah, sure. Why stop there when a nice little 338 Lapua can handle just about any coyote that ever lived?
Don't get sucked into this ultra high performance shit. A predator hunting rifle doesn't need a tight neck and special cold weather loads. I'd go with reliability first, then performance. And, I use a 25'06AI on coyotes, but it's a truck gun. Different twenty pound animal (rifle) I can't imagine a situation on a daylight stand that a 243AI couldn't handle quite well. Proven performance, well respected, simple case preparation, no flies on this puppy, at all.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 10, 2009, 01:55 PM:
I did'nt know a 17 rem was high performance. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2009, 02:15 PM:
Tim, show me a legit contest hunter that uses one of those subcalibers and I'll eat my hat. Giggles loves you, too!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 10, 2009, 02:29 PM:
LOL Leonard.. I saw his post in the padded room.
I will give him credit though he is one of the best internet experts there is. He has so much knowledge of coyotes and how to make vidios. I would'nt be surprised if he came out with a book on both subjects.. I don't think he can kill many coyotes though and maybe thats why he has to go to the padded room to vent..LOL
as for the 17 rem being used in contests you are correct but in the next year or so you you maybe eating youre hat and another member willbe dishing out 1000.00 big ones.. Its just a matter of time..
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on February 10, 2009, 05:40 PM:
Jeremy, I just built a 6x47 Lapua and I really like it. It is really,really shooting. But in reality a 6mm Ackley is the logical way to go. I like the 6.5 stuff too, but when you start shooting the long heavy bullets for the long range accuracy you give up expansion. I know several guys that built 6.5x284s that aren't getting the expansion and killing power they wanted. Just poking pencils in and out. LB pretty much covered it with the 243 Ackley and the 6mm Ackley. I had a 6x284 for a while and it was a shooter, but I couldn't do anything with it that Cenny can't do with his 6mm Ackley.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 10, 2009, 07:33 PM:
Yeah, the only *********** (edit: that's supposed to be re$ervation) I have on a 6mmAckley is the magazine length in a short action which limits your bullets in how far out you can seat them. The other alternative is to use a long action and then you probably need a spacer, like is done in new Model 70s. But, as much as I like a 6mmRem. I just don't think I am giving up that much with a 243AI capacity. It's an efficient case, in my view.
As far as the inherent accuracy of such as a 6X47Lapua versus a 243AI, I'm not convinced that it's not more like a difference in the individual barrels; at least in a hunting application. There is a lot to be said for the harmonics and length and contour of a barrel that tends to minimize all the chatter about certain cartridges being the be all and end all in accuracy. In other words, (assuming you could develop an equally accurate load for each cartridge) groups shot with a 6X47, and then punch it to 243AI; I just wonder if it's primarily the barrel or the cartridge, all things being equal? Probably been done often enough, but I never paid attention to specific results, if they have been published? Just a gut feeling.
Good hunting. LB
[ February 10, 2009, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on February 11, 2009, 07:45 AM:
Jeremy,it's hard to argue with Leonard's assessment of the .243.Look up Hodgdon's loading data website and see for yourself.The standard .243 with a 55 grain bullet is doing 4000+fps,that's some serious velocity.I know a couple of guys shooting that set up and are getting at least that velocity.I too,believe when the "rubber meets the road"I'd rather have a heavier grain bullet over the 30-40 grain weight class.
I'm one of those "exotic speed freaks" that Leonard talks about.I'm after flat trajectory.When I re barrel my .22-243,which is coming up pretty soon,it's going to be a .243 set up for 55 grain bullets,for the 200-300 plus feet per second advantage it offers using the same weight bullet.It will be the AI version to help satisfy my need for speed....
Looking for a real "Hammer",the 6mm/06 using 70 grain Ballistic Tips at 4000 fps would pretty much do it.I started this project 5 years ago but backed off,went a different direction.
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on February 11, 2009, 09:03 AM:
Wouldn't 70gr bullets at 4000fps be pushing the pressure in a 6mm/06. I shoot a 6/284 with 70 grain and 4000fps is really getting up there in pressure.I back it down and lose some velocity to 3800 fps not too much trajectory loss and have 1300 rds down the barrel with little accuracy loss.I guess I would not be so concerned about barrel life if the 6/284 is shot a little less than max pressures. Am not familar with 6/06 case capacity but think it would be quite full.I have reamers and barrel for a 243ai project, the only drawback I can also see is being limited to shorter bullets because of magazine length. But in may case twist rate of 1/12 will already be the limiting bullets to lighter and shorter.
[ February 11, 2009, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: 6mm284 ]
Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on February 11, 2009, 09:06 AM:
I like a 85 grain or heavier in my 243AI. The heavier bullets "buck" the wind better and have thicker jackets in case you are weighing the animal, (more flesh left to weigh).
I might add I use a 6 WOA almost exclusively when hunting predators. Using a 65 grain V Max at 3400 it works well.
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on February 11, 2009, 09:28 AM:
Yep,from the information I gathered when I was considering building a 6mm/06, 4000 feet per second was a max load for a 70 grain bullet. As for short barrel life, if it's a dedicated rifle just for Coyotes and say it get's somewhere around 500 or so rounds,that's still allot of Coyotes isn't it. That would last a few years for most guy's?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2009, 10:17 AM:
Yeah, we all have a concept of what's practical and what isn't...to put it delicately.
Dan, what's a 6WOA? I swear, I can't keep up with all the friggin' endless versions on the same theme. But, I agree about a heavier bullet in the 243AI, just from the standpoint of barrel life I don't want (edit: multiple) load development to exhaust my accuracy potential and I'm a cheap bastud, I want these things to serve me well over a span of years, as I'm not into repetative gunsmith welfare while funding their retirement. (except for you, big guy)
But there is always another way to skin a cat. I am currently using a 56 grain bullet in my 6mmRem and it does what it's 'sposed to do. The light fast club (speed freaks) actually has some sound ideas, once in a while. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
My 243W likes the 74Berger however, coyotes don't. Damn, there are so many choices out there before I need to find out why I need a 6WAM!
Good hunting. LB
edit: sparky, I understand speed freaks, Amigo. I'm a recovering speed freak, myself. (edit: that don't sound right, does it?)
[ February 11, 2009, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on February 11, 2009, 11:31 AM:
Well despite what sounds like sound advise I fell into the speed freaks club and have decided to build a 6mm-06 improved.
[ February 11, 2009, 11:37 AM: Message edited by: JeremyKS ]
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on February 11, 2009, 11:32 AM:
Leonard,
56 grain bullet? Of course something that light would catch my attention for a .243 bore. Is that a typo error ?
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on February 11, 2009, 11:35 AM:
Wow! Improved,now your talk'in. Coyotes are going to hit the ground as if they fell from the Sky!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2009, 12:07 PM:
Well, the one advantage in an "Improved" 40º shoulder is that you can generally operate at substancially higher pressures, all things being equal. The trend away from long cases to short stubby configurations means you are swimming against the current, but no doubt, you have a potent thunderstick envisioned. My preference, along those lines is my 25'06AI, but it may be because I already have enough other stuff? By the way, I think you can carry short stubby too far so I have no reservations against the '06 case, EXCEPT that it is outside my personal efficiency realm and entering the world of diminishing returns....since nothing is free, and you plan on a new barrel every year as certainly as you renew your vehicle registration. Okay, okay, not quite that bad, but if a 6RemImproved doesn't meet the criteria of what is loosly classified as "overbore" what does, eh? But, we are all building a dream rifle and life is too short to hunt with fat chicks or boring chamberings. Or, do I mean, "hunt for" fat chicks? But, these concepts are constantly evolving. What seems perfect this year doesn't necessarily blow your skirt up next year, kinda like a gas guzzling SUV. Oh wait; that's different, huh? Maybe not?
Good hunting. LB
edit: Sparky, I don't do typos, lol
[ February 11, 2009, 12:10 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on February 11, 2009, 12:33 PM:
Leonard, I stand corrected,I was hoping you'd bite on that...
It escapes me who makes a .243 dia. 56 grain bullet,please enlighten me kind sir.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 11, 2009, 01:17 PM:
JeremyKS,
Ah,just get ya .20-250,like DAA's...But instead of 1-12 twist get the 1-8 twist then shoot the new Berger .20 caliber 55 grain varmint match bullets.They have a B.C of .381 and you could probably run'um at 3600-3700 fps....Damn near will shoot with the 6mm's(70 grain bullets).... ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
55 grain Bullet on left,50 grain Bullet on Right
Couple Boxes of the new 55 Grain Bergers with the .381 B.C
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 11, 2009, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2009, 02:11 PM:
Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on February 11, 2009, 03:03 PM:
In the quest for speed, somewhere recoil has to be factored in.
Call me a pussy, but I shoot a lot and don't like the idea of being pounded by recoil with every shot. It can lead to some bad habits.
Randy
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 11, 2009, 03:07 PM:
Me too Randy. It's one of the big reasons I favor my .17 as much as I do.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2009, 03:57 PM:
AR, what recoil? Those semi auto gas operated machine guns have recoil?
BTW, please don't snicker about my moly bullets, somebody just gave them to me and what the hell, honest to God, first time I have ever used moly bullets, this past season and a half....and the earth didn't stop on it's axis, but I never thought I'd be guilty? Near as I can tell, my gun can't tell the difference?
Good hunting. LB
edit: PS Randy, all you need to do, is do a little shooting with a REAL magnum and you will not be bothered by varmint calibers, forever.
edit: ya Pussy!
[ February 11, 2009, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on February 11, 2009, 04:28 PM:
Chad,
Those 20 cal 55s are interesting but Im not convinced I want to shot a 20 cal as a contest gun. When Im just hunting I don't mind trailing one or two but when Im contest hunting I want the coyote dead where I shot him.
Randy as far as recoil I have been shooting a 243 and it doesn't seem to bother me.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 11, 2009, 04:43 PM:
We can't forget about all the fur damage those big bores cause..
I just got back home today from selling my coyotes and the coyotes the crew got..
Since the prices are lower this year i did things a little different. I kept my coyotes that i shot seperate from the coyotes that the other members of the crew got..The crew had double the number of coyotes compared to me and i made just as much money on my furs as they did.
As for a combined total of killed coyotes we had to toss about half of them away due to severe fur damage..(mange, rubbed, mites, and to many BIG holes.)
With all furs combined together we had a 10.00 avr. with the highest paid was 18.00 for over half of the fur sold...
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on February 11, 2009, 04:59 PM:
You forgot I don't plan to use this as a fur gun.
Your market report wasn't too bright but was expected.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2009, 05:21 PM:
Jeremy, these fur hunters can't relate to bang/flop, DRT. Every coyote is critical in a contest and it's not because of ten dollars worth of fur! Center punch a coyote with just about anything and he's dead, but sometimes those foot pounds convert what might have been a runner, to a incapacited animal and on multiples, ya just can't center punch every one, every time. I don't like sloppy shooting any more than the next guy, but smacking a coyote with the authority you have in a 24 caliber just seems to make a lot more sense. I think you have the right idea, but just about any 24 is way better for the application than any subcaliber, in my opinion. Also, there is a lot less distraction on doubles when the first animal doesn't fuss around. Yeah, they die, but sometimes a spinner can keep you from focusing on that one that is beating feet. That's my story, anyway.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on February 11, 2009, 05:33 PM:
my thoughts exactly Leonard
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on February 11, 2009, 06:11 PM:
Jeremey, sorry it took so long. As for the 6.5s, I wasnt thinking. Were thinking of doing a build for a long range gun for all around hunting. You have a better idea for a dedicated contest gun.....
Of all the guns Ive got, my 223AI is still my favorite I have ever even pointed at a coyote. No problems killing with a 52 gr AMax. Not the fastest or sexiest but a great coyote killer. And not much fur damage to boot. If I just wanted to anchor, DRT, my 25-06AI with a 75gr VMax does that very well. No good on fur, but they usually dont move. And its a lazer beam way on out there. But its a long action, "big boomer" as far a coyote rifles go.
Good luck. That 6-06AI should be a dandy.
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 11, 2009, 06:14 PM:
A spinner is a spinner no matter what gun you use. I went to a few contests this year and talked with some of the hunters about there coyotes that i saw brought in. Like why two holes and such, what gun they used? Also if you read some of the posts on guys that enter some contest and they tell of there hunt about how they shot a coyote with there 22-250 or 243 and the coyote dropped and got back up and ran off never to be found or had to be tracked down...
A bad hit is a Bad hit no matter what size you use..And i agree with Randy and DAA, Less recoil seems to make me shoot better...
I've also seen enough bad hits here at home done with a 22-250 or 243 to last me a life time..
Jeremey can use what he wants but i don't think it will make a difference....
I also think more time should be spent on learning on how to handle the coyotes that come in rather than what big boomer to use..
[ February 11, 2009, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on February 11, 2009, 06:43 PM:
Tim,
I think you will find that you will see more coyotes run off with the smaller calibers, they might be dead but the way we hunt we don't have time to go find that coyote. We made 27 stands on Saturday during the Midwest Hunt this year and we didn't do that by spending time tracking coyotes.
Your point about learning to handle coyotes is a good one and I feel we handle coyotes pretty well but there is always room for improvement. Im also trying to improve my game with new and hopefully better tools. No doubt different even smaller calibers will get the job done but Im trying to get every edge I can get.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 11, 2009, 06:45 PM:
Leonard I agree about putting the coyotes down where they stand for contest hunts.I just like the thoughts of the 55 grain 20 caliber bullet.If I were looking to do another project rifle that might just be it(.20-250).
Looking at the energy like you stated.
Energy for .20-250 with 55 grain Bergers(3600fps): B.C=.381
muzzle:1582 lbs
100 yrds:1338 lbs
200 yrds:1128 lbs
300 yrds:947 lbs
400 yrds:790 lbs
500 yrds:655 lbs
600 yrds:538 lbs
Sectional Density= .189
Energy for 6mm Remington 70 grain Nosler BT(3600 fps): B.C= .310
muzzle:2014 lbs
100 yrds:1638 lbs
200 yrds:1326 lbs
300 yrds:1065 lbs
400 yrds:847 lbs
500 yrds:667 lbs
600 yrds:516 lbs
Sectional density= .168
Not a huge difference..But I Don't know for sure how well the bullet is constructed(the 55 grain Berger),but interesting none the less.
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 11, 2009, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on February 11, 2009, 07:01 PM:
TA, for contests and damage work it is as simple as this. Say you call in a pair, the first presents the perfect 75 to 100 yard frontal shot. Doesn't matter if it's a 17 or a 338, that coyote is dead. The other coyote is leaving, you hit the pup distress or whatever and he stops looking back over his shoulder at you at 250 yards at the top of a ridge that if he goes over you ain't seein him again. The only shot you have is at the near hip or at best quartering into his flank. I'll guarantee that I can kill that coyote with one shot. I'm picky about bullets, and am not shooting one designed for prairie dogs and I'm going to shoot through that coyote to the opposite shoulder and maybe still exit from it. Big hole, probably. Dead coyote none the less. My only other criteria for staying away from stuff thats too big is that I don't want so much recoil that I lose my sight picture. I prefer to see that coyote crater. I understand that this may only apply to contests and damage work and that a 17 will kill a coyote, but when it really counts bigger is better.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2009, 07:05 PM:
Nice try, Chad!
Yeah, your twenty has a better BC and it's faster, and almost has as much punch as the 70 gr. 243, but it's a little bogus to list figures out to 600 yards, where the better bullet shape finally shows to advantage. Within the 90% of killed coyote ranges, like less than 300 yards, the 70 has more authority, doesn't it?
Good hunting. LB
[ February 11, 2009, 07:07 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 11, 2009, 07:09 PM:
Jeremy I understand where you are comeing from also. I just don't see anyone cal. doing a better job than another.. atleast the ones that have been mentioned..
If you want to put coyotes down on every shot or not have them go very far then i believe you need one of those specilty hot rod rifles with the right bullet that will destroy part of the coyote or break it down. They are barrel burners but if you use it just for contests they should last along time.. Some of the hot-rods wouldbe a 22-243 (cheetah) 22-6mm rem. 257 Arnold..
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on February 11, 2009, 07:11 PM:
Cal,
What bullets have you had best luck in your 6mms?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2009, 07:11 PM:
So, a spinner is a spinner, no matter what gun you use, eh? Well, guess what? I don't get spinners. You get spinners, I get bang/flops. Old Elmer Keith was right; use enough gun.
Good hunting. LB
edit: God, don't ask him that, Jeremy! I know he uses/or used to use a 68Berger and that was the worst bullet I ever tried for anchoring coyotes! I swear, I lost ten cripples one night, frontal shots, practically amputate a front shoulder, but they got away. Nightmare. I mean, they all ran off, never to be found. Maybe I was driving them too fast, I don't know, but that was enough for me and it was ten years ago.
[ February 11, 2009, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 11, 2009, 07:11 PM:
point takeing Cal, and understand..
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 11, 2009, 07:21 PM:
Yes Leonard i had two spinners out of 48 DRT coyotes, only lost one of them and both times it was due to useing a fire form load..
On the other hand i saw 2 different coyotes take bad hits from a 300 Wby mag. and finally dropped after the third hit on one and two hits to the other..I could go on fore-ever on this, and i have some pic's of guys crawling into pipes trying to retrieve coyotes wounded by a 243.. Like i said more attension shouldbe paid to shooting skills and handleing coyotes...
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 11, 2009, 07:37 PM:
hard to argue with your data....
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 11, 2009, 07:44 PM:
Leonard,
You are definitely right about the 6mm having more energy than the .20 cal out to 500 yrds or so,but not by much maybe 20% more energy at the muzzle,then the percentage gets less every yard out to 500+ yrds until the .20 catches it.I'm not saying that it's better than a 6mm.I'm just givin ya a hard time.lol
I am amazed at the thought that a .20 caliber would even be close to 6mm ballistics though.
I just remember Jeremy talking about a .204 a while back,thought he might like the best of both worlds.20 caliber with near 6mm ballistics.lol
I know how much you like the 6mm's so i'm just playing Devils Advocate.lol
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 11, 2009, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 11, 2009, 07:52 PM:
Leonard i'm not saying a 17 cal is the answer or any other cal.. I don't like contests that much but i do have plans for next year to do a few more than i did this year. If i would be lucky enough to place in one or win one not much would be said about the gun but the man behind it..
But anyway if i was really into it big time then i would use a hotrod. I do know a few ADC guys that use the 22-243 and a 22-6mm Remm and from what i heard or read they are the route to go if you want them DRT.
Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on February 11, 2009, 08:27 PM:
"....fur hunters can't relate to bang/flop"
Sorry big guy, but I gotta disagree with you on that one. I've said for a long time that I'll spend less time sewing than I would tracking.
This would be a good place to mention, though, that there is a wee bit of difference between ADC work, contest hunts & fur harvesting. Different tools for different jobs.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 12, 2009, 12:13 AM:
Okay, koko. Then let me clarify for your edification. A contest hunter, or for that matter, a night hunter has no interest in dicking around. Kill them and kill them well. The two concepts are mutually exclusive, you cannot have optimum performance while worrying about "no damage whatsoever". I know a subcaliber can drop them in their tracks. (occasionally) And, I know the situation changes somewhat, with a high dollar cat. But, killing coyotes for body count, you will lose unless you take precautions....dig?
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on February 12, 2009, 04:23 AM:
Like everyone else, I have shot lots of coyotes with just about every varmint caliber there is..the most effective at putting coyotes down on the spot is my 6/284 aimed centermass. Fur is not an issue , we are not allowed to harvest it most of the time and the rest of the time it is not good enough to be worth driving 120miles to sell it.22/243 seems to give similar results.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on February 12, 2009, 04:49 AM:
Yep, Jeremy, I love the bullet LB hates. 68 grain Bergers. Cenny B. shoots the same in his 6 Ackley. Between the two of us we have only killed a few hundred coyotes in the last few years with that bullet so it must be the difference in barometric pressure in Wyoming. But it isn't the only bullet out there. Another all time favorite is the 70 Sierra HPBT match. I had really good luck with that bullet for many moons. The 75 grain V-max seems to so well also. For some reason the V-Max bullets in general seem to hold together a bit better than the ballistic tips for me.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 12, 2009, 06:36 AM:
It's no wonder that you like the 68 grain Bergers. It's close to a perfect ADC bullet. About the only place you can hit a coyote and NOT kill it with that bullet, is in the tail.
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on February 12, 2009, 07:01 AM:
Glad someone is on my side Tim!
Now you get to be included when Leonard cusses that bullet.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 12, 2009, 10:16 AM:
I went through the whole process, load up a few, go to the range on Saturday morning, (I was still working) test bullets and loads 'til the cows come home!
That 68 Berger shot the best, no question. I don't remember what else I tried, but I used a lot of what I had on hand for other rifles, old reliables like 75SierraHP, 85Spitzer, 80grHorn pistol bullet, 70grNosler, 87Hornspire pt. and 80grBerger, which was the only one that didn't shot well in this particular gun.
So, I didn't decide in an afternoon, it was a lengthy process...as it should be.
Confident, I took this new gun and drove 500 miles for a baptism, get a little blood on it.
I'll never understand completely what happened but after so many runners, (unrecoverable) I hung it up and let someone else shoot.
As the man said; life is too short to dance with fat chicks, thus we have so many bullet choices, I'm sure I will never try that particular one again, as it made a lasting impression on me! In one night, it quadrupled, (I think?) my lifetime total of 6mm runners. If something like that doesn't get your attention, you Sir, are messing with the fat chicks instead of concentrating on important stuff!
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. LB
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 13, 2009, 04:38 AM:
Leonard,
Are you sure that you didn't grab a box of FMJ bullets in the dark that night?
I've had a few runners with the 68 Bergers, But they left a blood trail so thick, that even Ray Charles could follow it. And I don't recall any of them making it more than just a few yards.
I've killed coyotes with everything from the 17 MIV to the 338 Win Mag, and those 68 Bergers give the most consistent "Red Mist" of any bullet that I've tried.
The only down side to that bullet that I have found, is that it is neither fur or photo friendly.
Posted by tawnoper (Member # 497) on February 13, 2009, 08:16 AM:
I always tended to prefer a little heavier bullet for my 6mm Rem., something in the 80/85gr range. A bullet that always worked well for me was the 80gr Speer Hot-Cor.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2009, 10:46 AM:
Tim. Always dinking with the old guy, huh? Do they make a FMJ bullet in 6mm?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 13, 2009, 11:43 AM:
quote:
Do they make a FMJ bullet in 6mm
Yes they do Leonard. Do you need some?
I also have some in 22 cal. and a solid copper in 17 Cal.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2009, 01:20 PM:
Crikey, T A . Of course they make 223 FMJ, I think I heard that the military has a need? Copper 17s, what moron thought of that? Whatever, I didn't grab FMJ bullets by mistake, T B . You will find out I'm right, but some peeps have to learn the hard way.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 13, 2009, 01:47 PM:
quote:
Copper 17s, what moron thought of that?
There is a guy out somewhere trying to corner the market for ammo to use in i believe Cal. Lead free zone..
I got a free sample from another bullet manufacture years ago to test in my 17 cal.s..
You forgot to mention they do make FMJ for the 6mm round nose or semi-pointed.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2009, 02:21 PM:
OK OK OK, OKAY! They make a "FMJ" in 6mm! Who gives a shit?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 13, 2009, 03:36 PM:
You seem a little tense Leonard. Why don't you come up here next week and we can go kill some pretty coyotes.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2009, 03:47 PM:
Nah, headed to AZ. Hope it don't rain? Minneesota? I heard the coyotes are uncallable up there?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 13, 2009, 03:58 PM:
LOL Yes they are Leonard..
Actaully i was thinking S.D.. would be a better spot.. I have a hunt lined up with some great callers, for sometime after the 17th..
There are a few places there that you could stretch the legs on that 243 ackley of youre's
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 13, 2009, 05:29 PM:
It's not ready, Tim. But, I have three other Ackleys that are capable of bang/flop. In other words, they are not subcalibers...
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 13, 2009, 06:24 PM:
They will work Leonard, just remember you can only shoot the mangey ones..
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2009, 09:27 AM:
Tim, I read, on another site that you were into videos or hip hop or rap and quiting acting alltogether?
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 14, 2009, 10:50 AM:
Yes Leonard I saw that..LMAO
Numb-nuts was refering to my little vidios i did of my hunt this year. Just short clips and not a actual vidio.. I think my Cam does a better job of showing my hunts rather than still photo's..
I don't plan on makeing any vidio's, but if i did i have one of the better areas to do it in.. You been there so you know what i mean..
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 14, 2009, 11:42 AM:
Yeah, well. Riddle me this? Why do Minneesotans call soft drinks; "POP"? What's up with that? Something to do with the subzero weather, or the mosquitoes? I realize you guys talk like Canadians, mostly.
Everybody knows, the proper term is "SODA". I can prove it.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 14, 2009, 12:33 PM:
Its short for "soda-pop"
But most of us here still call a coyote a coyote, rather than a Yote..
I read somewhere that Cali. wants a lead ban.
Thats really going to screw up Numb-nuts shotgun tatics.
[ February 14, 2009, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 14, 2009, 02:24 PM:
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/us_world/2008/11/13/2008-11-13_hes _having_another_baby_pregnant_man_tho.html
So when is Numb-nuts and Gargoyle's ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
due''????
[ February 14, 2009, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
Posted by KevinKKaller (Member # 559) on February 14, 2009, 03:09 PM:
My 2 Cents If you want a 6 mm hot rod and dont want to build. 240 Wetherby Factory ammo and mirrors the 6- 284 and the 6-06 I own 2 6-284s and 1 240 weth and love them all. 75 and 85 grn sierras shoot great in mine 10 or 12 twist
My .02
Good Luck Jeremy
[ February 14, 2009, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: KevinKKaller ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on February 14, 2009, 03:25 PM:
Leonard,
What do you Californicator's call a soft drink? I was born in Ainsworth, nebraska and it has always been "pop". First time I heard it called a "soda" was when I took a trip down to Arkansas and heard one of those dark complected kids ask for a "soda". I just grinned.
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on February 18, 2009, 04:52 AM:
I have found myself going to a 90 grain Nosler bal tip over the others as that is where the hunting jacket starts the rest are all varmint thin jackets.
Great accuracy in a 1-9 barrel and plenty of knock down power, I liked the 80's until a few shoulder hits and the splash they created, tried 95 VLD bergers due to high BC but not feasable for accuracy unless you can get them closer to the lands. I "may" try some 90gr berger BT HP match- shorter bullet, but I worry about them not shooting any better or making things any deader than the 90 nolser bal tips. I get great accuracy with those, I also ordered some of the new e tip in 90 grain as well just to see what they will do all copper alloy meaning zero splash. I get them to go at 2970 fps and that is acceptable for me when I see the groups they print no need to make them go faster.
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on December 08, 2009, 08:04 AM:
What powder have you guys been using in your 6mms? Any particular powder going to be better from mild to real cold weather?
Thanks
Jeremy Gugelmeyer
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 08, 2009, 10:13 AM:
RL17 in the 243AI works great with the 75 V-max's and even the 105 A-max's. Velocity and accuracy wise. This seems like a magical powder that works well in several calibers.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on December 08, 2009, 12:57 PM:
I am using RL 17 behind an 85 grain Speer hot core spitzer. I am getting 3400 fps with that combo in my 6mm Remington.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 08, 2009, 04:05 PM:
There is a lot of information on this page, keep scrolling to your prefered bullet weight.
http://www.angelfire.com/nd/243ackleyimproved/243AI60.htm#_Toc29833306
Good hunting. LB
Posted by coyote whacker (Member # 639) on December 09, 2009, 05:36 AM:
I use 95 grain Nolser bal tips in my .243 with H-4831sc very consistant group sizes and does a great job on coyotes. AI 243 and the right powder I'm sure you can be mid 3,000fps or a tad better plenty for any coyote gun and most practical long range coyote shooting.
Why go with a long action? You get less recoil and can see more through the scope with the 6mm's than the 25's or 6.5's as far as recoil goes, plus your into long action builds.
I will AI my .243 once the barrel goes bad until then the standard .243 does a great job on coyotes out to 500 yrds.
Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on December 11, 2009, 09:44 PM:
I got lucky and killed a coyote yesterday with my 243AI 75 gr V-max traveling at 3571FPS (22" bbl) it made a small hole going in the neck and didn't exit.
My buddy's boy killed one with the same load and it looked like someone tried to gut him with a soup can lid.
Have more testing to do but it sure turns off their switch!
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