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Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on September 29, 2007, 04:58 PM:
DAA, and whomever else may have tried this project, What the verdict? I'm thinking about a new toy. I have a Sako action that is craving a new barrel.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 29, 2007, 05:24 PM:
3Toes,
Funny you post this topic.I have a Remington 700 .22-250 that's about due for a new barrel and I have been seriously considering going with a .20-250.So I'll be watching the replies too.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on September 29, 2007, 10:27 PM:
I had a 22-250 ackley built a few years ago. Nice cartridge to work with and not to difficult to load for.. I like to use the 52 gr. A-max in mine with N-140 or N-540 powder. you will gain 100-150 fps maybe a little more over the factory 22-250..Good luck..
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on September 30, 2007, 05:37 AM:
From what I understand the problem is finding a bullet that will hold up to the velocity. If you get a faster twist the 50 grain bergers might work? The nosler ballistic tip's may work as they are tougher than the other plastic tip bullets. Hopefully DAA will chime in.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 30, 2007, 07:59 AM:
I've got nothing but good things to say about the .22-250AI. It's one of the all time best cartridges out there, in my opinion. Basically does everything the Swift does, with better brass. I know Leonard has been using the .22-250AI on coyotes for a long time too.
The one I use for coyotes is a 12 twist, handles everything up to some of the 60 gr. bullets.
After going round and round, trying everything, I finally ended up back where I started, as far as bullets go - the good old Sierra 1365. Not as sleek as the Vmax or B-tip, but just dead nuts predictable as to how it acts once it hits a coyote.
I think the 55 B-tip would be a good one too, I think that's what Q uses in his Swift. They are the one bullet that didn't shoot very accurately in my gun though, so I never tried them on coyotes.
Anyway... Bottom line, my opinion, the .22-250AI and the Swift are "the" two best .22's for coyotes, and I'll take the .22-250AI just for the better brass behavior.
- DAA
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on September 30, 2007, 09:04 AM:
DAA,(or anybody else)
What is the approximate barrel life of the 22/250 AI and what might be the barrel life of the 20/250 Ackley that Cal is wanting to build?
Thanks
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 30, 2007, 09:53 AM:
Oh Hell...
I totally misread Cal's original post. He said TWENTY/.250AI, not TWENTY-TWO/.250AI... Duh...
I've got a plain .20-250, not an AI. Have not shot enough coyotes with it yet to form any solid conclusions, but I think it's likely to end up being pure Hell-on-wheels. The big issue with the really big .20's like this, for use on coyotes, is finding the right bullet. I've written page upon page about my search for a bullet that will perform the way I want it to. Super short version of my story is that most, if not all of the commercially available .20 caliber bullets aren't designed or constructed to handle the velocity. The Berger 40, for instance, was an utter failure for me. I'm talking BIG TIME surface splash. To the point that it wasn't even killing coyotes cleanly. Perfectly placed 50 yard shots were resulting in gigantic entrance wounds, and spinning, staggering, still very much breathing coyotes. Not good... BUT! I "think" I have found my bullet. Again - have not shot enough coyotes with it yet to say absolutely. But, so far, so good. I had a bullet custom made to my spec's. It's a 38 gr., made on drawn down .224 J4 jackets, with about an .060 boat tail, a short one caliber bearing surface and a long sleek 9S ogive ending in the tightest meplat the maker figured he could put on it without sticking in his die. The BC comes in around .260. I'm pushing them about 4300 fps, with .5 MOA accuracy. Put that in your ballistics calculator and check out the trajectory. Unreal. But best of all, so far, it seems like this bullet is tough enough to give good penetration without surface splash. Every coyote I've shot so far with it has been DRT.
Lonny, I really just can't say about barrel life with something like this. I'm sure I'll get 500 rounds out of it. Maybe that's all. Maybe a lot more, I just don't know. But for how I use it, 500 rounds is a lot of years. Honestly, I'm planning to shoot some jack rabbits and chucks with it, just to make sure the barrel doesn't live longer than I do...
Cal, this is a subject near and dear to my heart. I gotta run right now, but will be happy to talk your ear off about it later. Actually, I've been writing a really long article about my .20-250 to put on my website. I'll send you the rough draft when I get it done, probably about mid-week.
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 30, 2007, 09:57 AM:
Hell, I'm batting a thousand on reading comprehension today... Lonny you also asked about barrel life on the .22-250AI. Lots of variables there. But for a 12 or 14 twist, shooting normal hunting bullets, and being used for slow fire like coyotes, not prairie dogs or anything like that, you'll easily get at least 2000 rounds out of a .22-250AI and possibly a good bit more than that. Mine has about 1500 rounds on it now and is still going very strong (last time I checked zero it printed a five shot group under .400). And most of those 1500 have been shooting 'chucks so the barrel has gotten plenty hot plenty of times.
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 30, 2007, 11:40 AM:
DAA,
I really look forward to your .20-250 article.Have you tried the Hornady 45 grain SP in your .20-250?That's the bullet I have been interested in using if I rebarrel to .20-250.If I could get that bullet(45 grain SP with a .245 B.C)running around 4000-4100 fps and have it shoot 1/2 inch groups I think I would have a great coyote combo.Thanks for the info....
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 30, 2007, 01:30 PM:
Chad, I've only messed with the 45 Hornady in my .20-250 just a little bit. The load I tried is right there where you are wanting to be though - about 4050 fps, 1/2 MOA.
I've only shot two coyotes with it. Both facing me at under 100 yards. Both of them were pole axed, I think their souls were half way to heaven before their bodies hit the ground. Niether shot had an exit (typical of the facing shot). Both had larger than caliber entrance holes, about 1.5" or so, but not anything like what I'd call "surface splash".
That bullet is kind of my "Plan B". The low BC and lower velocity resulting from the heavier weight (45 gr.), means the trajectory isn't quite as flat as my .17 Predator. One of my primary goals for this project was extreme flatness of trajectory - even flatter than my .17P. So I'm wanting to use a lighter bullet, with higher BC, at higher velocity. The rub, of course, is coming up with a bullet like that which also kills coyotes cleanly. I'm not too concerned with "fur friendly" on this deal. I'll take it if I can get it, but I don't want to ask for too much all at once ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
. I HAVE to have clean kills with good bullet placement though. No compromises on that.
So, anyway... I don't have enough experience with the 45 Hornady to say too much for sure one way or another. But from what little I have seen, it looks to me like it ought to perform exactly as you have outlined.
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 30, 2007, 05:19 PM:
Dave,
Thanks for the info.Trajectory is what I am looking for too.The 45's have done very well on coyotes out of my .204 ruger,but at 3650 fps it does lack the ballistics I want.The coyotes I have shot have all been DRT,with VERY little if any pelt damage.MY Main reason I have even considered going with the .20-250 is I have a .22-250 that's pretty much shot out and needs a new barrel,and I have really come to love the .20 caliber.I do wish one of the Major Manufacters would come up with a better light weight bullet as you have(38 grain boattail with a high B.C (.260))Again thanks for the info.
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on September 30, 2007, 08:28 PM:
I have been shooting a fast twist 22-250AI for a while and after 350 rounds the barrel does not look good. I figure maybe 600 before bullet blowups.
I would guess half that for a 20-250AI. A slow twist might go for 600 in the 20-250AI. If just shooting coyotes 600 is a fine barrel life and will last for years. But don't even think about shooting colony varmints with any of these overbore chambers.
But barrel life is very subjective. It really depends on how much you will put up with. Some people shoot a barrel until accuracy falls off. I never go that far. When I start getting blow ups or it takes 20 rounds to settle down after cleaning, new barrel time.
Jack
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 30, 2007, 08:50 PM:
With the hot chamberings I have had experience with, I think this question of accuracy is incremental. Yes, I have talked to a few guys that have shot out a barrel on such as 22-250AI and 6/284s, stuff like that, and the number of useful rounds varies quite a bit.
My personal philosophy is to select a cartridge that is not too radical, and then, not push the performance to extreme, and I think case life is a good indication of that. If you have split necks and blown or flattened primers, chances are, the barrel won't last too long.
But, as Jack and DAA have said, there is a limit. I'm still using the 22-250 Ackley that Dave mentioned, something less than a thousand rounds and accuracy is acceptable. I think it is possibe the fast twist that Jack has is a contributor to his degraded performance; as mine is 1 turn in 14", but things like powder and bullet selection, and pressure and freebore and perhaps barrel manufacturer, cut rifling, button and the number and shape of the grooves plays a part? But, I'm sure he knows where he is at, I think he owns a borescope?
No free lunch. You want that frozen rope trajectory, you better do your homework and expect a washed out barrel sooner or later.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 17, 2007, 12:11 PM:
I finally got that .20-250 article I mentioned earlier posted to my website. It's too long. And heavy on my demented gun nut ramblings. But, it's done (for now).
It's at:
http://www.rmvh.com/Articles.htm
You'll probably want to skip most of it, and just read the bullet performance section. That's where the real meat of the project is.
Readers Digest version -- "almost there". Current bullets are working "pretty good", but not quite what I'm after. Very optimistic that new bullets will be available soon that will address all the current shortcomings.
- DAA
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on November 17, 2007, 03:23 PM:
I'll be reading it all. Did you get to use that 20 on Varmint Safari IV ?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 19, 2007, 06:25 AM:
Rich, the Big Twenty only got used for just a few scenes in VS4.
Had it out yesterday though, filming for the next one, got some good kills on film with it. I need to talk to Gary some more about his experience with the 38 gr. Unumssig bullets. So far, they are just working great for me. All three coyotes yesterday with it, bang-flop, no splash, no exit, text book perfect. Starting to wonder if his batch of bullets is somehow different than mine, or if there is some other subtle difference(s) that might explain why he's seeing surface splash with them and I'm just not.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 19, 2007, 09:26 AM:
Damn, Dave! I have only read the first two chapters, thus far, but you have me hanging on the edge of my seat!
I couldn't agree more with your logic and application.
Now, back to the report. LB
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 19, 2007, 02:04 PM:
Okay, finished. Great read. I'd like to see some expense data, seating dies seem a bit casual for a gearhead like Dave? But, fortunately, very little runout?
Is the Gary in CA, IBEW Gary in Palm Springs? I wish I had known that before, he was at the HM campout. I could have picked his brain a bit.
I am completely on board with the concept, 300 to just shy of 500 or so. There are so many western opportunities at that distance.
Again, great article. Thanks.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 19, 2007, 04:31 PM:
Thanks Leonard, I really do appreciate the nice review.
quote:
I'd like to see some expense data
I can't go there!
Seriously though, I mean, yeah, I "know" how much this stuff costs. But, it's been a long standing, iron clad personal policy, that I NEVER add it all up. Not even in my head. For that reason, I honestly could not say just exactly how much any of my rifles have cost. I plan on keeping it that way .
The .22 caliber seating dies don't seem to be giving very much at all, if anything in concentricity. I did the same thing with my .20BR, used my existing Forster .22BR seater. Both rounds, .20BR and .20-250, runout is under .003, with most being well under - closer to .001.
And "yup", that Gary.
- DAA
Posted by 3 Toes (Member # 1327) on November 19, 2007, 05:04 PM:
I'm going to read it first chance I get Dave, but have been a little busy with other things. Any twist reccomendations etc, for the 35 to 45 grain range?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 19, 2007, 05:15 PM:
Cal, for 35's to 45's, I'd do a 12 twist (which is what I have).
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 20, 2007, 09:29 AM:
Dave, are you using a four groove barrel? Angled cuts; I forget what that's called? How is cleaning intervals shaking out? I like your scope choice, too. Except for the length, (maybe) I like everything about my 4.5X14X44. Okay, so you don't want to talk cost....how about the length of time, start to finish? And, I didn't know McMillon would inlet a stock without having your barreled action in their shop. Some people have been saying 5/6 months, on the stock alone?
That's why I have become a little indifferent about these custom jobs. They take so long, I am anxious all the time; or I forget why I wanted it and then realized I didn't need it very bad, anyway? Sometimes, patience is not my strong suit.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on November 20, 2007, 12:43 PM:
Very indepth and interesting article Dave. Even though I'm not in the 20/250 game, I'll be interested in hearing what you end up using for bullets in your "coyote death ray". Good luck and continued success with the project.
Leonard, I ordered a couple McMillan "swirly" Rem Classics the past couple years and it took 3-3.5 months, but I have heard of guys waiting four months. Not to sound like a advertisement, but that is what I like about the McMillan. They can customize your stock in so many different ways when you order. Colors, patterns, inletting for actions, barrel, and barrel shank of your choice, recoil pad, sling studs, length of pull, blah, blah, blah, etc.. Gawd, the list is almost endless and somewhat mind boggling until you study what they offer and figure out what you want.
I guess I'm kinda going through that stage in life where its fun to choose exactly what I want and is worth the wait. Your older, much wiser, have been down that road before, and have seen the light. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Don't tell my wife, but she thinks when I order a stock I'm getting the whole rifle for that price. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It works both ways though, when she orders something that I think is frivolous I don't even bat an eye and just roll with it.
You guys have a good Thanksgiving!
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 20, 2007, 01:21 PM:
Leonard, my barrel is a 3 groove, with standard land and groove configuation. Not one of the radiused or "ratchet" designs. And really, the only reason it is a 3 groove, is because I wanted to use a Lilja barrel and Dan only makes 3 grooves in .20 caliber.
Cleaning hasn't been anything unusual. I don't shoot it that much, so it hasn't ever really had too many rounds in between cleanings. Maybe 30 or 40 rounds one of the days I was working up initial load data. Doesn't copper foul much, cleans up nice and easy. With anything that has an expansion ratio as low as this thing does though, I don't think it is a good idea to go too many rounds without thorough cleaning. Too easy to get hard carbon build up just ahead of the throat. Royal PITA to get rid of once you let it happen.
Kind of hard to even say how long this one took. I did the "one piece at a time" thing. Had already had the action for most of a year, before even starting to order any of the other parts. And I didn't order the rest all at once. Spread it out over most of a year. The McMillan took about 4 months, I think, and the barrels took about that long too. On both items though, they were done a little bit earlier than promised. I can understand totally what you mean about the long wait, and losing the gusto by the time it happens. But I'm more like Lonny, I know EXACTLY what I want, don't want to have even one tiny detail different than EXACTLY that, and am willing to wait as long as I have to. The 'smithing on it took the longest. About nine months for that. But again, that was actually a little bit sooner than promised. Long waits really suck. But being told one thing, and then not having it happen as promised, sucks even worse. I've found the long waits far more tolerable, when the promised dates aren't missed.
Dunno, really hard to put a time line on it, the way I went about it. I guess if I had ordered all the pieces and called Greg to get in line all at the same time, it would have taken 9 months. But the way I did it, was over two years.
- DAA
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on November 23, 2007, 10:47 PM:
Dave,
Maybe we do have different bullets from Mr.Unmussig??
I gave up on them,11 out of 13 Coyotes resulted in splashs....I've used 40 grain Ballistic tips for the last 19 killed ,including 4 Bobcats and the results have been excellent!Only one minor splash on a shoulder and it was a bang flop,no staggering around.All the other kills,either behind the shoulder or frontal chest hits,produced tiny entrance holes and small quarter size exits,quick clean kills,any where from 60 to 370 yards.Did really good on the thin skinned cats too,very nice.
Had to drop the charge down to 37.0 grains using the 40's,it chrono's at 4125fps now,instead of 4300.Primers seat tight using this charge,no ejector marks.
Shot it again at paper at 350 yards to compare trajectory's with the 38's...Not as good,but not bad.
Also worth mentioning,the Ballistic tips seat allot deeper,more room to grow.
[ November 24, 2007, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: sparkyibewlocal440 ]
Posted by sparkyibewlocal440 (Member # 397) on November 23, 2007, 11:16 PM:
LB,
That was a missed opportunity.....I had the .20-250 and it's clone, .22-243 Midd. for back up.
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on January 31, 2008, 07:46 AM:
DAA how are you getting along with your big 20 now? Any word on the new bullets?
[ January 31, 2008, 07:47 AM: Message edited by: JeremyKS ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on January 31, 2008, 11:28 AM:
I've got the new bullets, and they shoot good, but my coyote hunting has pretty much come to a screeching halt - snow is too deep to get around in. So I haven't killed but two coyotes with the bonded cores. Bullets performed perfectly on the two, but two ain't much of a sample.
The Unmussigs never did give me any trouble like they did to Gary either though. That and he has had good luck with Noslers too I think. I really believe the bullet issue is behind us.
I usually quit hunting coyotes sometime in Feb. anyway, but the damn snow has kinda shut me down early this year. Still might get out again, but, might not.
- DAA
Posted by JeremyKS (Member # 736) on February 04, 2008, 07:31 PM:
DAA thanks for the reply. I'm seriously debating about building one of these.
Jeremy
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 04, 2008, 08:01 PM:
Question: What is the difference between the 20-BR and the 20-250 as far as performance goes?
Reason i ask is because i have the itch to have another rifle built and was thinking of another switch barrel for my Rem 700. I have a 6mm H.L.S. and the case falls in between the 20-BR and the 20-250. I was thinking about necking it down to 20 or .224 Cal. Thanks..T.A.
Posted by 6mm284 (Member # 1129) on February 05, 2008, 04:36 AM:
There is probably more that has influence on barrel life than just case and caliber. Twist,bullet,powder,charge,heat,velocity,cleaning interval and method,barrel manufacturer and composition of barrel.It seems like two guys could shoot exactly the same caliber and barrel and load and most likely will not get the same barrel life.Everyones expectations are different.But generally speaking when the ratio between case capacity and bullet diameter become greater, barrel life becomes shorter.From then the whole question of barrel life may depend on what is acceptable accuracy. I know guys that rebarrel as soon as accuracy begins to deteriote even slightly and those that will still shoot until they notice unacceptable hunting results. Somtimes I think barrels are blamed for a loss in accuracy when actually it may be the bedding starting to slip or optics issues or maybe the bullet just needs to be seated at a new depth.Myself ,I am usually ready to try something different before I shoot a barrel out.
Gives me an offseason activity to be occuppied til next season.That .20/250 sounds like an interesting hotrod.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 05, 2008, 08:45 AM:
Tim,
There is not a whole heckuva lot of velocity difference between the .20BR and .20-250. My .20BR has a 1" longer barrel than my .20-250, and shoots the 40 and 45 gr. bullets within about 100 fps of the larger case, but using about 5 gr. less powder. I actually chose the '250 case over the BR case for this project for slick feeding from a standard Rem. box magazine. The velocity increase is nice too, and I'm glad to have it, but it does cost quite a bit more in powder burned for the small increase.
My friend Blaine has been shooting a .20 Dasher this winter. In it, he's pretty much matching the velocity of my .20-250, but with a bit less powder. I think the Lapua BR brass is the secret sauce that lets the straight BR and Dasher run with the larger '250 case.
So, anyway... I'd guess a .20 HLS would come in very close to the Dasher and '250 for capacity. And it would be a lot of work, but you can make HLS cases out of Lapua .243. I think it be a neat case that would likely run right with the .20-250.
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 05, 2008, 01:05 PM:
DAA,
How's ol' Blaine been? It's like he's dropped off the earth or something.I'm sure he has been putting up the big numbers again this year. That kind of surprises me that he's been hunting with a .20 caliber though,I thought the .17 was about his max.Did he ever get that .15 cal. project going?
Good Hunting Chad
[ February 05, 2008, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 05, 2008, 01:51 PM:
Chad, he never did get the .15 going. His main squeeze is still .17, but he uses all kinds of stuff. Even been playing with a .25 WSM. He's really liking that .20 Dasher though.
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 05, 2008, 02:17 PM:
Dave,
I kinda figured the .17 was still his main gun for called coyotes.Hell I just bought me a .17 Remington myself,Don't ask me why because it's not like I need another gun or anything.lol I've always wanted one,and have shot quite a few just never took the plunge and bought one.We'll see how it works out I guess.
Is Blaine using the .20 Dasher for day stands or just night hunting? What bullet is he using with that rig?
How have you liked those Unmussig bullets? The 38 grain HP's?I have really been thinking of ordering some with the high B.C.Didn't you say they were around .260? I would love to try them in my .204 ruger and run them around 3800 fps.Might just replace those 35 bergers I've been using. Thanks
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on February 05, 2008, 03:59 PM:
Thanks for the info DAA.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on February 06, 2008, 07:37 AM:
Chad,
The Unmussig 38's have worked great for me. I've calculated the BC at about .260 and gotten a much more educated second opinion that agreed with me. I've only shot 100 and then 300 to measure drop once, but it came out about right on with what I was expecting. So I think that .260 number is reasonably accurate. They are very sleek. No idea how well they would perform on coyotes at only 3800 fps. I'm launching them about 500 fps faster than that... Probably do just great, but you would have to try them and see.
Of course, you just might find you like that .17 Rem. so much that your .204 starts to gather dust, LOL!
Blaine has been playing with a few different bullets in his .20 Dasher. Lately though, he has been using the 39BK and they have been working well for him. Which just surprises the shit right out of me. I would have bet that he'd get big time splash with them. But so far, so good. Gary has had luck with the 40 B-tips in his .20-250 too. Really makes me wonder if my prejudice against plastic tips for this kind of application might be unfounded. I never have gotten around to actually trying them.
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 06, 2008, 08:37 AM:
Thanks Dave for the Info..I have had the same prejudice against plastic tips for coyotes,maybe I will have to rethink that too.lol
DAA:Of course, you just might find you like that .17 Rem. so much that your .204 starts to gather dust, LOL!
Hell that's what I'm afraid of.I already have enough guns collecting dust as it is.lol
Thanks again Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on February 06, 2008, 04:39 PM:
Chad don't worry about too many guns.
Once you get old and retire, you will need to have a different rifle to take out each day. You don't have to worry about too many, until each rifle only gets hunted every five years.
At that point, you can give a couple to the Grandkids, and go buy more!
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on February 06, 2008, 06:04 PM:
Tim, LMAO....You just described my Dad to a Tee...I guess there's always hope...lol
Good Hunting Chad
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on February 06, 2008, 07:05 PM:
Shit, I thought he was talking about me????
Posted by Catfish (Member # 2592) on April 15, 2008, 05:54 AM:
I thought that the .20 cal. would be the answer for coyotes too. I hit 4 with 32 gn. Sierra bullets with my .204 and didn`t kill any ot them, well at least not where I could find them. I gave up on the 20`s and built a .22-6mm. It has an 8 twist and pushes 80 gn. buttels over 3,400 fps. I tried the 75 gn Hornady HP`s and they will not make it to the target. With the 80 gn. Sierra it leaves a big nasty hole on the far side, but they don`t go far, and with coyotes only bringing $ 6 to 7 they don`t really pay for the fuel to the fur buyer so it`s no big deal if I ruin a pelt. If Don`s bullets work out I might build a .20-250 just for kicks though.
UBB.classicTM
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