This is topic .17 MKIV Legitimatimized in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.


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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on November 03, 2006, 06:47 AM:
 
http://www.predatorxtreme.com/articles.asp?ArticleID=68
Ralph states in the article that this will be the most successful of all the .17s.
Does anyone else own one?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 03, 2006, 08:06 AM:
 
No, don't own one. Back in the fur craze, that is the cartridge we used, gun belonged to my partner, but we both used it at night on the chip shots. I have never fired a 17 Remington, but always believed it was somewhat overbore.

I think I'd rather own a 17 rimfire, though? Exactly why, I have not figured out? But, friends don't let friends buy sub calibers. I hope?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on November 03, 2006, 08:48 AM:
 
Shaun Frame knows about as much about guns as anyone I know, including small calibers. He told me once that a 17 Mach IV acheives less velocity than a 17Rem, with less powder. Does that make it more effecient? No. No free lunches. Is it a good fur caliber? Yes.

That always made sense to me. Im sure a Mach IV is just fine. Never used one, but love the 17Rem. My guess is it will be alot the same. Just a little slower and a little less range is all. Ive seen coyotes shot with a Mach IV. They were just as dead as the 17 Rem and the same amount of damage. I think it will be a fine factory cartridge and like seeing more small calibers being "legitimatized" but I dont think its going to do anything the 17Rem cant do and probably not as much at longer ranges.

JMHO
 

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Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on November 03, 2006, 08:57 AM:
 
Quote; .......and under the right conditions - coyote.

Quote; ....coyote.....all called in under 150 yards and in every case shot thru both lungs. Under those conditions they piled up within 30 yards.

WTF??? If I double lung a coyote under 150 yards, is a bang flop to much to ask?? If a perfect hit will go 30 yards, how far would a less than perfect hit go??

I've said this before; Fur Friendly is fine, but I would rather spend time sewing than tracking something that I may or may not be able to find.

I'll stay with my .223 hollow points, thank you very much!!!
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on November 03, 2006, 09:45 AM:
 
My timing sucks sometimes. Two months ago I ordered a 17 MK4 reamer from Pacific tool. Purchased a CZ 527 in 221, pulled the barrel and screwed on a Shilen SS in 1-10 twist. This is the first 17 caliber I've ever shot and am amazed at the accuracy. I'm getting 3918 average of 5 shots with a Berger 25 and H 335 powder, that's not a real hot load, just maximum for me in my rifle. I haven't shot a coyote with it yet, but I did shoot 2 jacks with 20 grain HP Berger's at just over 4000 and the bullet didn't exit. That bullet may be to fragile for use on coyotes.

I hope as do a lot of others that Remington sticks to the original design when they tool up to make their version. The 17 MK4 is over 40 years old. When they (Rem) standardized the 7-08 they lengthened the neck so the original wildcat reamers couldn't be used with factory brass.

I have a lot of reloading data if anyone need some let me know.
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on November 03, 2006, 10:22 AM:
 
As with any of these sorts of debates it`s the folks who don`t own or have never used one that dismiss them as substandard. The same with written articles, the author is conveying his opinion even though his actual experience MAY be very limited, usually just enough to put some words in print for the masses to gobble up as if they were red letter scriptures. Buy one & use it for a few years, shoot a truck load of coyotes with it & then you`ll know for sure what you`re talking about.

It doesn`t really matter what caliber you use, everyones got their favorite, some don`t care about fur, some do, some take good shots others just pull the trigger on any coyote regardless, it`s really a matter of preference so I wouldn`t put a lot of faith in anyones opinion who has somewhat limited hands on experience, use whatever strikes your fancy & works well for your type of hunting.

IMO..Ralph is either uneducated about a few things or just plain full of shit, I suspect the former to be the case......he mentions wind drift, total crock of shit, anyone with any math skills can blow holes in that theory right away.....150yd gun, another bunk of poop, do the math........barrel fouling, please spare me any more of this bullshit. He does praise the MIV & rightly so but he sure used a lot of worthless hearsay as filler in that article.

JMO
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 03, 2006, 10:36 AM:
 
I love my .17 Mach IV. Have not used it on coyotes since the day my .17 Predator came home from the 'smith though. But if I were targeting fox or cats specifically, it would be my first choice.

Dan, I would not sweat your timing one little bit. Remington's prior history with making .17 caliber barrels leaves a LOT to be desired. Even if they do considerably better this time around, you'll still likely be far happier with that Shilen than you would have been with a Rem. factory barrel.

I think it's neat that they are doing it and all, but I've already got that niche nicely covered and am just not into factory barrels in general, so I doubt I'll be buying one.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on November 03, 2006, 10:49 AM:
 
Steve Timm, who writes almost exclusively for varmint magazines wrote an article about the MK4 8-10 years ago. I think its in Varmint Hunter magazine, anyway I wrote down some info for another user, here it is.
17 MK4 at 300 yds, 25 gr. velocity 2325 FPS Trajectory -5.3"
223 at 300 with 55 gr velocity 1905 -7.9
22-250 at 300 with 55 velocity 2220 -5.5

So its not as big a dog as some think, but it will run with the big dogs.
Before some says a 25 grain bullet don't have the punch a 55 does, just remember a 55 don't have the punch a 6mm 80 has.
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on November 03, 2006, 01:25 PM:
 
Ive not killed nearly as many as some with a 17 Rem, but they arent a dog at all at practical ranges. Wind drift is minimal and Ive shot coyotes from 6ft to 289 yards and had mostly bang flops with little or no hide damage.

Whats not to like?
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on November 03, 2006, 04:58 PM:
 
DAA,

Do you own a .17 Predator reamer? Or whose reamer did you use?

I'm still twisting with the idea of turning my 527 from a .223 to a .17 Predator
 

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Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on November 03, 2006, 05:02 PM:
 
Tim, 527 Varmint or American? I wanting to get another American and rebarrel it to 17Rem. I love my 204 in that size. The Varmint is too big for callin, IMHO.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on November 03, 2006, 05:47 PM:
 
I have a 17 mach-4 in a bobcat rifle, built by Steve Timm father inlaw. I used mine mostly for red fox and it did a nice job. I would'nt be affraid to use it on a coyote out to 300-350 yards. I have been useing the 17 rem. lately with the 30 gr. gold bullet on coyotes and it does a vantastic job of putting them down, just ask Rich H. or Randy Shaw. They wittnessed two kills with it. The 17 pred. is the holy grail as far as 17 cal.s go. I'm waiting to here from my gunsmith to let me know when mine is done, any week now....
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 03, 2006, 07:10 PM:
 
Tim, my .17P was chambered using Greg Tannel's reamer - which is the same one used to chamber the first .17P. I think mine was the 3rd one ever made, or maybe the 2nd, I forget...

But, anyway, don't own the reamer myself. But Greg is an AWESOME rifle smith. I can get you a reamer print if you want to get your own reamer, or have another 'smith in mind that needs to have one made. Actually, I'm sure Dave Kiff has the print on file. Here's what it looks like:



- DAA
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on November 03, 2006, 07:44 PM:
 
Just for grins...

Here is a video clip I put together for Todd Kindler to use on his website. It's a few coyotes getting shot with the 30 Gold's that TA mentioned, that Todd makes. This is absolute typical .17 caliber performance on coyotes, in my limited experience. I had exactly the same kind of results using my .17 Mach IV with 25 gr. Berger Match bullets. Obviously, your milage may vary...

I have not read the article, but I suspect poor bullet selection. As you can see from the video clip, with proper bullet selection, shot placement is not all that critical. Coyotes in that clip get hit everywhere from Texas heart shots to getting hit too far back to direct shoulder hits. It has always kind of half amused me and half chapped my ass all the guys that write about "surgical bullet placement" and "for expert use only" when writing about the .17's. Whenever I read that, I know darn well that the writer has either extremely limited, or most likely zero actual experience killing coyotes with a .17. Or, he just doesn't understand bullet construction and how to choose the right bullet for the job. Anybody that has used them very much, with good bullets, knows what a crock of shit that stuff is. And the wind drift, sheezus... Don't these people understand even the most basic, fundamental principles of exterior balistics? Anyone that has even a feeble grasp of the concepts of B.C. and velocity, needs only about half a second to figure out what a crock of shit that wind drift talk is... Even the concept of energy, seems to escape many of the mainstream pablum pukers when writing about the .17's. Run the numbers on a 30 gr. bullet with a B.C. of .270, at a MV of 4100 fps. Compare the trajectory, wind drift and energy figures down range to your favorie .223 load. You just might be shocked by what you see... Hell, compare the wind drift figures to your favorite .220 Swift load, for that matter. Or, just watch the video clip - that's what I watch through my scope almost every time I break the sear on a coyote.

But, I'm breaking my own self imposed rule here, about not getting into discussions about .17 calibers on the internet. So, I'll leave it be.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on November 03, 2006, 09:36 PM:
 
That was fun to watch, Dave. Thanks. If that is what it takes to draw you out, it's worth it.

One thing never changes, anything with "17" in the topic really draws a crowd.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Dan Carey (Member # 987) on November 03, 2006, 10:07 PM:
 
Not only is the 30 gold a great bullet you are a hell of a shot.

[ November 03, 2006, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Dan Carey ]
 

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Posted by JD (Member # 768) on November 03, 2006, 10:37 PM:
 
Well said Dave, there`s absolutely nothing wrong with speaking the truth & presenting the facts, .17s may not be someones cup-o-tea but at the very least one should have facts to weigh against their decision rather than hearsay & fairytales. Well done.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on November 04, 2006, 03:41 AM:
 
DAA great vidio, i see that happen everytime i'm out hunting with the 17 rem.
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on November 04, 2006, 09:58 AM:
 

quote:

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But, I'm breaking my own self imposed rule here, about not getting into discussions about .17 calibers on the internet. So, I'll leave it be.

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