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I promised myself that I'd stay out of .17 caliber discussions on the Internet.

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That's pretty close to the promise I made myself. Only I promised myself to TRY to stay out of any 17 caliber arguments.

I'll be the first to admit that 17's aren't' for everyone, I just wish the naysayers would quit spouting off about things that just don't work for them.

Has anyone ever tried necking the PPC down to .17? I was just looking at that again this morning.

Actually I kind of enjoy sitting back and taking my time working up some brass, or sorting and working up bullets.
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 15, 2006, 09:56 PM:
 
Yes Tim ; Walt Berger and Todd K. have both done it to name a few. Also the Rem. BR case has been necked down. From what i here they are pretty good, but brass is spendy and you are getting close to over-bore for the 17 cal, plus you can only shoot them so fast and then the bullets well start to come apart. I've been shooting the 17 rem. for quit some time and like you Tim i enjoy working with the brass and bullets . I reload for other cartridges but i enjoy the 17 cal the most and its not perfect but neither are any others. I love to hunt coyotes and shoot 17 cal's and talk about both and thats what make life worth liveing. Good shooting and take care..
P.S. if you are interested in something a little different you might want to look at the 17 Javalina,In my oppinion i would say it is the best of the 17 cals, good accuracy and vel. but alot of work required to make the cases.

[ June 15, 2006, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 18, 2006, 07:28 AM:
 
Tim, folks have been necking down the PPC to .17 for twenty years. You end up with just slightly more capacity than the Predator, but you get to use better brass. Velocity is actually a bit higher with the PPC, maybe due to the old short/fat powder column thing, or maybe just because of that awesome Lapua brass with the never-die primer pockets. Possible negatives are that you have the odd head size of the PPC case, but that's not as big a deal as most make it out to be. I've seen a dozen rigs with .473 bolt faces running PPC cases that extract just fine with no modifications. You would be in single shot mode, that PPC case doesn't like to feed. May or may not make any difference to you. That is the reason I went with the .17 Predator over a .17 PPC or a shortened .17 PPC though -- I really like to have a repeater in my lap on a coyote stand. Blaine had him a reamer made a few years ago for a .17 PPC that is .125 short. Ends up same capacity as the .17 Rem., but he gets better velocity (same velocity as the .17P, but with less capacity) and extreme precision accuracy. If a guy doesn't mind single shot, and doesn't mind working up PPC brass, I think Blaine's .17DT is the hot ticket.

- DAA
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 18, 2006, 08:10 AM:
 
I wondered if that PPC would feed. I'm like you, I want a repeater on a coyote stand, and I have a barrel just sitting here waiting to become a new coyote rifle. I just can't decide which 17 to chamber it as.

But I love the idea of Lapua brass with the "Never die" primer pockets.

Does that PPC brass just have a hard time feeding out of a side by side magazine such as a 700 action has? How about a stacked clip such as a CZ action has?
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 18, 2006, 08:34 AM:
 
I like TA's comment. The 17 Javelina is an oldie but a goodie. Where do we draw the line on overbore?

And, I refuse to be dragged into another 17 caliber discussion!

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 18, 2006, 09:25 AM:
 
Good question Leonard. I believe anything larger than a 17 rem. is over bore. But the barrels are a little better today so one could get by going to a little bigger cartridge. Bigger means hotter and you are going to get throat wear. Thats to be exspected and after awhile the barrel well have to be set back. The other issue would be gain, what would a person gain by going bigger, 50 fps, 200 fps. In the pred that i'm haveing built the gain over a 17 rem. would be 150 fps or a little more.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 18, 2006, 10:14 AM:
 
Tim, the PPC case CAN be made to feed. And a single stack is a good first step. Using the HS Precision single stack mags and bottom metal is a popular method of getting the BR case to feed (which is even harder to feed than the PPC). Anything that squatty though, and especially lacking much body taper, is going to be harder to get feeding nice and slick. I won't say it can't be done, actually I know that it can and has been done. But it is more difficult, and less of a sure thing, than getting longer cases with more body taper to feed.

My Predator feeds really well. Maybe not quite "slick as snot", but well enough that I have not had a jam in the field yet (although, my partner Tim has managed to jam it twice - now he works that bolt like he means it and likely won't have another). That is from a Model Seven action with factory .223 magazine box and follower, that has had no modification to accomodate feeding. It really is reason I chose the .17P over the .17DT for that rifle.

Leonard, for a custom made, purpose built predator hunting rifle, the line I draw on overbore is right out there on the edge. Or maybe even just slightly over the edge . I draw it basically at the point where velocity more or less stops increasing past a given capacity. The cartridges being discussed, the .17P, the .17PPC etc., certainly are approaching that line. The next logical step up in capacity from there, for simplicity, would be the .17-250 (skipping the .17BR to keep it simple). It's been done, lots of times. From what I've been able to gather though, velocity gain over the PPC or Predator is very minimal. And yes, I did give the .17-250 some consideration, it would be easy to do and feed slick from a stock 700 action. No performance gain for the additional capacity though, along with being more finicky (that's one of the bugaboos of truly excessive capacity - tough to find a balanced powder charge that provides velocity AND accuracy).

That's my take. Others bring barrel life into the disscusion. That's fine, and probably just good sense for most folks. But for me? Barrel life? Who cares? Not me. Hell, I just barely care about barrel life on rifles I have built for shooting rock chucks and the like. For a prairie dog rifle, I start to pay a little bit of attention to barrel life, but not a lot. On a predator rifle, I give barrel life essentially zero consideration. I just don't care. At all. I don't know all that many people who have ever actually worn out a barrel. I've only worn out a few, myself. It's one of those things I just quit worrying about, a long time ago. If I'm fortunate enough to wear out a barrel, hey great - best excuse in the world to buy a new one!

A rifle that I'm having built right now, that I'll be trying out on coyotes this coming winter, is probably actually a little bit over even my line on overbore. It's going to be a .20-250. I've had a .20BR for several years and know what it can do. From all the research I've done, I expect velocity gains for the addtional capacity of the .20-250 over the .20BR to be pretty insignificant. But, it gets back to the intended purpose, and my favoring of a repeater. The '250 case will feed just fine. So, I chose it over another .20BR. And will take the small velocity gain and be happy to get it. But, I expect barrel life to be very short. Probably less than a thousand rounds. Won't be surprised if it shits the bed after 500. Oh well!

Note - this discussion has safely moved away from ".17 caliber", thank goodness!

- DAA
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 18, 2006, 11:14 AM:
 
DAA: Here's a pic of my 6mm H.L.S., its the cartridge on the right. one on left side is 6ppc and then 22-250. The HLS would make a good platform for youre 20-250 project. It feeds well through a rem. 700 magizine.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on June 18, 2006, 11:26 AM:
 
Nothing to do with the discussion but I note that Hornady is finally making 25 caliber VMax bullets in 95 and 110 grain. I have been complaining about the limited selection (75 gr.) for many years!

Now, HELLO! does anybody have an opinion on primers for 300 WinMag? As I stated previously, I have always used Winchester 8½ but I want to try either 210Match or CCI250.

What do you use? Comments?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 18, 2006, 11:59 AM:
 
I don't have any of those big guns Leonard. I have used cci-250 mag. in my 22-250 with slower powders and have had good results. I use the BR primers in my 22-250 ackley with good results also. I've found that each gun that i shoot has a preference of what primer to use. So i keep a assortment of different primers on hand. When i find the powder and bullet combo that works the best, then i test different primers to fine tune the load selected.
 

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Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on June 18, 2006, 07:24 PM:
 
I've worn out one 17 Remington barrel, and I have a factory 7mm Remington mag on a M70 action that defies logic. I can't touch both the lands and the case at the same time, I'd like to call that a shot out barrel, but the damned thing still shoots under 1 MOA.

I ran into Vic at the Grocery Store this afternoon, and he says he can't understand why I'd want to go though all of the time and trouble and expense of building a custom wildcat. But fortunately, he is a fellow gun nut, and all I had to tell him was because it sounds neat and I've never had one.

I've had two parent cartridges in my head all afternoon, the 243 Win and the 7.62X39 Is it possible to work a .308 neck down to only .17? Where does all of the extra brass go? How do you avoid wrinkling it all up?

And Leonard, I've only used the 215's I've some 210's sitting here that I want to try, I just haven't had time to mess with them.
 

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Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on June 18, 2006, 07:37 PM:
 
Leonard, 215's is all I've ever used in Mag. cases.

Tim, the 7.62x39 is the parent case for the PPC (actually, for the .220 Russian, from which the PPC was created). Rather than starting with cobby mil 7.62 brass, start with really, really nice Lapua .220 Russian. You'll end up with almost exactly the same critter.

Necks get both thicker and longer when necking down, by the way. Generally, mostly longer.

TA, I've already got dies and brass for the .20-250 (just using the bushings for my .20BR in my .22-250 dies), so I'm just going to stick with that. The HLS is a neat case though.

- DAA
 

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Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on June 18, 2006, 07:55 PM:
 
Tim; when you try to neck a 308 down to 17 cal all the brass goes up, createing a long neck that will have to be sawed off. It proably can be done but thats a awfull big case for the 17 cal. Now if you took that 243 and made it into a 243 ackley that would be one accurate coyote smokeing rifle. A friend i hunt with has the 243 ackely and he has taken coyotes from 500 to 800 yds. on a regular bases. i would have to look in my log but i think he is shooting a 55 gr or 58 gr. bullet at 4100 fps. Then there is the 22-250 ackley that shoots as flat as the 243 imp. I have one on a rem 700 switch barrel, fun round to work with, accurate. I took a coyote with it at 470 yards and a red fox at 756 yds. Keep thinking i'm sure you will come up with something.
 

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