This is topic Lurking makes me crazy... in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.


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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 15, 2005, 12:17 PM:
 
Lurking around on "other boards" can sure make a guy think some crazy thoughts.

When I teased Andy about "sub .22 caliber" firearms, it got me to thinking about actually owning one.
It would be nice to have another varmint rifle/plinker that doesn't eat so much powder (like my 7.62x54 does), but which one?

The .17 Rem eats too much podwer for the energy returned (IMO), and the .17 HMR just doesn't return enough energy at all (or lend itself to reloading).
Besides I can't get it out of my head that a .17 is just a BB gun. A super-duper BB gun.

Somehow, while lurking around, reading "stupid gun questions" my bro and I stumbled across a link to the Calhoun site. It's funny, because I had jut started considering a .19 based round, like maybe the .19 Hornet, etc.
I had figured they probably already existed (in some form or another), no idea is really new in the arena of wildcats.

In reading how the .19s came to developement I found an idea...

I think I'd like to build a .19 Badger (19/30 carbine), on an M1 Carbine action.
I used to have an one (I was holding as collateral for a loan) and I loved it. It was a fun lil plinkin' rifle, I just "thought it, and shot it" with that thing.

I've kinda been bitten by the mil-surp bug, with my M-N shooting as well as it does (for $80), and being made so ruggedly.
I figure I could build an M1 project, more cheaply than an AR based small caliber varminter/plinker, or even "fixing" the POS Mini-14 we have, and end up with something genuinely unique (like me ).

Having enough gas pressure to cycle the action, is probably the biggest obstacle (as far as functioning).

It looks like the timetable for my roadtrip is all messed up, too late and too far into the mating/denning season to bother, so maybe I'll apply that money to a rifle project?

Krusty
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on December 15, 2005, 01:01 PM:
 
What are you thoughts on the .204? I think you can get a NEF .204 handi rifle for around $200. It's sub 22, bigger than a BB gun, and not a huge investment to get.

I understand wanting something different, but a wildcat surplus rifle sounds like an expensive proposition to me, over the long run. Not one big expense, but a bunch of little ones and a few medium sized ones that all add up. But I might be totally wrong on that.

I have a "POS" mini I've been working on for a few years, and got it shooting pretty good. Redid the trigger, gas block, shimmed the lockup, etc. It could use a bedding job but the shimming took care of the flyers.

I had a good deal on the rifle, but I have alot of time over many years, lots of money in ammo spent at the range, alot of frustration until I finally got it where I wanted it.

If I had it to do over again I wouldn't, and didn't. I recently bought a Savage 11f in 22-250 ($399.99) that came with the accutrigger, pillar bedded synthetic stock, floated barrel, etc. In the short and very busy time I've had it I've shot 18 rounds through it so far. I've shot 15 rounds at the range in two range sessions sighting it in and getting the feel for it. Since that time I've fired 3 rounds. One into a standing broadside coyote's chest at 28 yards, one into a running quartering away coyote's chest at 34 yards, and one into a standing broadside coyote's chest at 140 yards. I have 18 rounds through the rifle and 3 of them have passed through a coyotes chest.

This is out of the box, no frustration, none of my time. I've got fur in the freezer and I'm still on the first box of shells (although I have the second box open so I can load the full 5 rounds into the box magazine since I only have 2 rounds left in the first box of 22-250's I've ever bought).

If I added up the $$$ I had in the mini, the time I had in the mini, and the frustration I had in the mini to make it an accurate coyote rifle I could have probably bought a few savage 11f's.

IMHO if you get a savage 11f in .204 (or 223 or 22-250 or ...) you'll be money and time ahead in the long run over a wildcat surplus rifle. And if you went with the NEF .204 you'll be different than most predator hunters and get the rifle for half the price of the Savage. All of the NEF's I've come across (owned myself or used friends) were more than "calling rifle" accurate. They wouldn't win any bench shooting contests, but they could certianly shoot minute of coyote vitals to 200 yards.

Just thinking out loud. Good luck with whatever you decide and be sure to post some pics!!!

later,
scruffy

[ December 15, 2005, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2005, 01:31 PM:
 
I never understood "lurkers" either? Oh well.

The cartridge that blows my skirt up is the 19/223, and Calhoon chambers that in the CZ. I handled and shot Vic's 19 Hornet from Calhoon. Very nicely done, I think he said he had a thousand $ in it, after all was said and done? Has a cheap Simmons scope on it, clear enough for most work.

M1 Carbine? Well, for my money, I'll take an SKS 7.62X39. Ugly as hell, and you could easily use it for a jack handle, but the price is right, even if you wound up throwing it in a ditch, between here and there.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on December 15, 2005, 04:20 PM:
 
"A cheap,Simmons scope"....!! I'll have you know Leonard, I spent 99 hard earned dollars on that scope:), as a matter of fact, I have four of those same scopes now. All of them are 1.5X6, with bold cross hairs, and they amaze me each time I peer thru them.
I was at the range today, drug out my CZ 22 Hornet,17HMR and a little custom 17 Rem on a CZ action. All three rifles have the same 1.5X6 on them. I was using a target that had a five, 2" black squares, I perfer a black square, with white circle or square, surrounded by the black. At 100 meters, those bold crosshairs damned near block out the square, and gives the impression of a very sloppy aim point.
Whats amazing, is how such low power glass, can provide extreme accuracy, when most would think a big 6.5X20 Leupold would be the ticket?
All three rifles shot sub-inch groups, with the CZ 22 hornet, making the tightest cluster, that pushed the half inch mark. Goes to show that no matter what magnification you have in your glass, if you hold in the same place, for each shot, you ought to hit in the same spot.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 15, 2005, 05:58 PM:
 
Sruffy,

My thoughts on the .204 are, that it's a pretty good round, but not the one for me.

In my eyes a Mini 14 won't even make a good boat anchor, it's too light

I dunno why a wildcat should end up being too much more expensive than putting a good aftermarket (original caliber) barrel on a gun (and a new set of dies)?

Yeah that's true... I could just go and buy a Savage, from Wal*Mart, a mini-van, and a neck-tie, and become a freakin' conformist... what am I sayin'? NO I CAN'T!

Leonard,

The lurking isn't voluntary (and much of it should be classified as surfing, the Calhoon site, for instance, isn't a forum).

Vic told me about his .19, way back when we all used the chat, and that's a big part of why it stuck in my mind (over the .204).

Seems to me, if I hear right, that scope serves ol' Vic well enough, no?

Rebarreling the Rem 722 into a 19/222 crossed my mind... for about a nanosecond.
But you are closer to my line of thinking, with the SKS.

I was thinking semi-auto, battle built, and compact.
But that SKS just makes me wanna puke. I'd rather use it as a jack handle, and would be inclined to throw it in deeper water than a ditch. LOL Maybe if I tied it, and the mini, together they'd make a good anchor.
If I am just gonna be a conformist , I'd rather go AR (and BE plain, bland, oatmeal).

When I first started coyote hunting, the M1 Carbine instantly popped in my mind, as a gun I could definitely hit the target with, quickly, but the ballistics make it a poor choice (on par with the SKS).

With the ability to turn a .30 carbine into a .19 Badger, it seems like it makes (my old friend) the M1 a candidate worth looking at again.

Vic,

Thanks for the "word", on the Simmons, I'd been looking at that one, to replace the Weaver K-6 (w/target dot ret.) that's on the Duece now (if I don't get the Burris for X-mas).

I have figured out, with my ol M-N, that target choice is everything. You can't hit what you can't see (very reliably).

I've been trying to get to the range myself, there's a 200 yd dinger with my name all over it, and I have 40 more new cases (total of 79 so far, one cracked first firing) all loaded up and ready to go.

Krusty
 

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Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on December 15, 2005, 06:40 PM:
 
Vic, what model are your 1.5X6 Simmons?
Incidentally I have one of those 6.5X20 Leupold VariXIIIs on Lurch. My $69 Simmons Pro-Hunter 3X9s are just as clear.

[ December 15, 2005, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
 

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Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on December 15, 2005, 07:33 PM:
 
I like the "Whitetail Expedition" series Rich, has that european type focus on the eyepeice, and is very clear, really surprising.
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 15, 2005, 08:37 PM:
 
Why do suckers like me pay exorbitant money for glass? I own quite a few 800/1200 scopes, I think I'll see if Vic will trade me for a Simmons? If not, I might have to give them away? I used to think there were no bargains in optics? I still wonder about the ultra low light capabilities of the bargain scopes?

Good hunting. LB

edit: question for the night hunters (I know we have a few) What is your best night scope?

[ December 15, 2005, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
 

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Posted by R.Shaw (Member # 73) on December 16, 2005, 05:48 AM:
 
To my eye, allmost all scopes have the same clarity. So the clearness of a scope is not really a factor for me.

Until 3 years ago, I had always owned Leupold scopes and it seemed after a week or two of riding in the truck, they always had to be rezeroed. This always had an affect on my confidence and to me confidence is one of the biggest factors in accurate shooting.

Also, eye relief was very critical on the Leupold's. It seemed a little adjustment had to be made every time the gun was mounted. Sometimes there is no time to move your head to see a full field of view.

I have made the switch to European optics. Now I just change zero when I change loads. And you can actually track the bullet around the target a quarter of an inch at a time.The eye relief is outstanding and it seems the crosshairs are on target each time my cheek touchs the stock.

I do not baby any of my equipment and it borders on abuse, but to me there is a lot of difference in optics.

Randy
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on December 16, 2005, 07:42 AM:
 

quote:

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edit: question for the night hunters (I know we have a few) What is your best night scope?

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quote:

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I like the "Whitetail Expedition" series Rich, has that european type focus on the eyepeice, and is very clear, really surprising.

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quote:

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Yeah that's true... I could just go and buy a Savage, from Wal*Mart, a mini-van, and a neck-tie, and become a freakin' conformist... what am I sayin'? NO I CAN'T!

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Hey, I told you to get the NEF single shot. I don't know any "conformists" who shoot single shot NEF's for predators.

And I didn't think I was a conformist buying a Savage. I mean my savage didn't come from walmart, I drove my cow manure caked 4x4 truck to the little mom and pop gun store, walked in wearing my old battery acid eaten faded was once dark brown now light brown carhart coat. Slapped down 4 bills and some change and walked out with my new Savage.

And honestly I don't know how getting a Savage makes you a "conformist" anyway, I mean, you're not getting a remington VSSABLTLVQ or whatever the latest and greatest remington varmint/predator rifle is (with the latest and greatest R3 limbsaver recoil pad, woohoo! Has anyone at Remington thought to put an adjustible trigger on a small caliber centerfire instead of a recoil pad??? )

Just admit it Krusty, you want a predator rifle that has a bayonet.

later,
scruffy

[ December 16, 2005, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: scruffy ]
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 16, 2005, 12:22 PM:
 
could be true? bayonets? I would never have figured it out.

I can get a Banner for night hunting, for less than a thousand dollars?

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 16, 2005, 12:37 PM:
 
Scruffy,

You are right you did say NEF, I just used the Savage in my attempt at humor (probably because I can get one (in .22 centerfire) more readily than an NEF Handi in .204.

Maybe it's a "level of conformity" thing?
I take a certain amount of pride knowing nobody else is like me.
It'd be pretty cool, to me, to have the only M1 .19 Badger around (might be worth the price of two guns).

A good anology too, is the VW Bug (or the Mini Cooper). Same spirit, with modern technology.

I guess the biggest reason I wouldn't get a .204 barrel on a Handi, is there's a black on black Handi in .22 Hornet in my closet right now (it's my handiholic brother's, w/my scope). The NEF doesn't thrill me any more than the SKS, even though it's a good shooter.
And I just don't think the .204 is "different enough", from the other calibers we (the family) already own (which is way over balanced at the BIG bore end, with several recent .30+ calibers added).

As I said, a single shot doesn't turn my crank, and if I wanted another .31 cal rifle, in semi-auto, I'd look harder at the Mini 30.

It's more that, straight stock, low comb, military styling and fit that I like... than the bayonet (which I did remove from my M-N, dang thing weighs almost 2 pounds with all the hardware ).

(*Note; the M-44 is actually kinda dangerous to fire with the bayonet folded, it lies along the right side of the rilfe not underneath, ending right at the finger groove in the fore end. I didn't have to shoot it and slash my finger open, like most guys do, to figure it out.

Remington used make a .22 centerfire bolt action rifle, with a very nice adjustable trigger, and a metal butt pad.
We have a 722, in .222, that's a beauty.

Krusty

P.S. Coyote hunting has very little to do with why I thought of this project.
So far you've killed more coyotes with your Savage, than I have ever shot at.
 

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Posted by Todd Woodall (Member # 439) on December 16, 2005, 12:49 PM:
 
Hey Leonard,

My favorite night hunting is probably the Leupold 4.5X14X50 IR. Works great for night work if I can remember to turn the thing off. I really like a reg. duplex but the IR(fine) is really nice for the night stuff. I never have had a problem with seeing my crosshairs, but its nice to have.

Todd
 

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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on December 16, 2005, 06:01 PM:
 
Yeah, Todd. I have one of those 4.5X14X50, (without IR) on my 25'06Ackley. Never saw the need for the illuminated reticle, assuming the light is handled correctly, etc.

Good hunting. LB
 

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Posted by scruffy (Member # 725) on December 19, 2005, 10:17 AM:
 

quote:

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I can get a Banner for night hunting, for less than a thousand dollars?

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Well, I'll sell you mine for $999 and I'll pay for the shipping. That'll get you one for under a thousand. Just let me know.

later,
scruffy
 

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Posted by Barndog (Member # 255) on December 20, 2005, 04:10 PM:
 
Best night hunting scope. Cheap Bushnell 6 x 40, paid $35 bucks at Wal-Mart. Worst scope BSA, I believe open sights work better at night than BSA. I still would like to try the thermal-infared. I lost my contact at the local law enforcement, so I never got to try it out. Working on a new contact. Even if it works I still don't think it will be worth the $10,000.00 plus price tag. Just think Leonard $1,000 on glass just might be cheap in the near future.
 

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Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on December 24, 2005, 09:59 AM:
 
So in looking, and asking around, it looks like a "stub" barrel replacement might be the way to go on the M1 Badger.

If you are not familiar with how a stub is done, here is a link to an NEF Handi Rifle project.
Handies and other pivot actions are the most common to be done this way, but I have seen other actions done like this too.

The barrel should be able to be taken off the M1, stubbed, bored, and tapped, then a Badger barrel (for a bolt action) turned and threaded to match the stub and the original profile of the M1 barrel, and that assembly would then be screwed back on.

It seems the same thing might be able to be done to a Mini, using the 19/223, and I have to wonder if the smaller hole wouldn't make for a bit stronger barrel? Or, at the same time you could add a bit to the taper of the barrel, and re-inlet the stock, definitely making the barrel more rigid.

I have found a couple M1's, in the $200 neighborhood, that might make good donors for a project like this.
The USMG actions weren't quite as thick as the replica actions (some of the replicas are built on a thicker aluminium action) and that one of the replica actions might make a better choice as far as strength, but all the parts are not interchangable so the mil-surp will be easier to get parts for.

Right now, EVERYTHING is on hold though. The "big change" that was coming my way, suprised us and got here early. I am in for a roller coaster ride for a while, and hunting and shooting are gonna fall way down on my list of priorities.

Krusty
 

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