This is topic best powder for 223 AI? in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
To visit this topic, use this URL:
https://www.huntmastersbbs.com/cgi-bin/cgi-ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=000180
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 18, 2005, 02:35 PM:
Got 250 55 grain VMax, no powder, yet?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 18, 2005, 03:43 PM:
Leonard,
Did you go and break down and buy you a 223AI? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Fun little gun to shoot,I have really enjoyed mine.
I've had good luck with W748 and H335.
Lately, I have been using Benchmark and #1365 sierra's about 3400-3500 Fps out of the muzzle,I've been using it as a backup to my 22-250.
Although I think most if not all of my calling this year I will be testing out my .20 cal. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
GOOD HUNTING Chad
[ September 18, 2005, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 18, 2005, 03:57 PM:
Thanks Chad, that seems to be a couple powders that keep popping up, both 748 and H335, in addition to 4198. I was wondering about varget, maybe R15? Another mentioned is IMR3031. I need a fireforming load, for the present.
No, not new gun, just a rechamber. It's quite a step backwards for me, I usually like a little more powder capacity. I'm not sure it will kill a coyote, cleanly.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 18, 2005, 04:18 PM:
Leonard,I can't really tell you how great they are at killing coyotes consistantly as I have only killed a half dozen or so with mine.I had only one runner that I hit in the front shoulder,but that was with a 50 grain hollowpoint.Since I went to the 55 grain #1365 they die fast(bang flop).
As far as a fireforming load I have been using 24 grains of H335 powder with either 50 or 55 grain bullets,they are pretty accurate.Good Luck and GOOD HUNTING Chad
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on September 19, 2005, 05:19 PM:
Leonard,
Why don't you just save yourself the disappointment, and go buy a 17 Remington?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 19, 2005, 05:40 PM:
Tim, you must believe in fairy tales? Me? Shoot a 17 Remingtom? What a joke!
Hey, I got a good one for you. Bush just nominated Hillary for the Supremes. Really!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 20, 2005, 07:48 PM:
This is the test target, emailed to me yesterday by gunsmith. Fireforming, first three shots. Looks promising.
Good hunting. LB
edit: I don't know what the hell I'm doing wrong, these pics are supposed to auto resize? Jack is going to be pissed.
[ September 20, 2005, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Todd Woodall (Member # 439) on September 20, 2005, 08:03 PM:
Looks pretty good Leonard. But seriously how could you miss that target, ITS HUGE!!!!
LOL, sorry I had to.
Todd
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 20, 2005, 08:22 PM:
FedEx says it's in North Salt Lake, right now.
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 21, 2005, 05:46 AM:
Prolly be too much trouble for me to run over there and screw a respectable .17 barrel on it... If it's still in NSL though, it's within not more than 10 miles of me as I type.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 21, 2005, 10:42 AM:
It's worth a try, Dave. Tell them I said it was okay.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 21, 2005, 01:12 PM:
Not bad groups for fireforming.But if your going to change barrels go with the .20 cal ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 22, 2005, 08:13 AM:
As far as discussions of esoteric differences in cartridges for predator calling go, I think the comparison between the .20's and the .17's is among the more interesting. Especially when comparing cartridges both based on the .223 case.
My only experience with a .20 is the .20BR I built a few years ago. And I only used it on a couple of coyotes, with a load that definitely wasn't good for coyotes (32 Vmax, 4500 fps). Built it for p-dogs, more than anything, and it does real well for that.
But...
I got a phone call from a fellow yesterday. Seems he had Greg Tannel build him a really nice custom Tac .20, but he can't do any loading or testing with his new rifle because of health problems. Long story short, he called Tannel to find somebody who could do the rifle justice in tuning it and working up loads, so the rifle is coming my way. After I finish load work, I'll go whack a couple coyotes with it, to make sure the bullet/velocity I come up with for him is really working like it should.
Looking forward to getting this chance to work with the Tac .20, as from all I've seen and heard, it's the .20 I'd choose if I was going to build one for predator calling.
Myself, I'm just extremely pleased with the performance I'm getting from my new .17 Predator (pic below is from my first day using it last weekend). But will certainly be interested to see how the .20 compares.
The .20 will have a slight edge in energy, where my .17P has a slight edge in trajectory and wind. Really, the numbers on paper are close enough to call sixes, for my purposes. As the extra energy of the .20 isn't needed for my application, but then the flatter trajectory and less wind drift of the .17 isn't enough to really make a difference. So actual field performance will really be interesting to me.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 22, 2005, 08:26 AM:
Thanks for the pic, Dave. (nice looking stuff, behind you)
Before I get all interested in 17 or 19 ot 20 caliber, I'd like to see some heavier bullets and reports on long range performance. It's still the golf bag approach, is it not?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on September 22, 2005, 09:18 AM:
A while back I traded for a .223AI. Sako,L461. I used H335 and 748. The H335 works a little better with the 55gr, through this gun.
I have pretty much used the Tac. 20, mainly just to make me get used to it, but this year I am going to have to take the .223AI out for a hunt or two.
later pup
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 22, 2005, 10:34 AM:
I agree with you DAA about the 32 grain vmax not being a good coyote bullet.I have been working up a load for the 35 grain bergers for my .204 ruger.Settled on 28 grains H4895,It shoots a .4 inch 5 shot group.Graphed it at 3900fps.Hope it will make a good coyote load this fall.Looks like you're not having any problems killing coyotes with that 17 predator. GOOD HUNTING Chad
[ September 22, 2005, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 22, 2005, 10:59 AM:
PS, where was that photo taken?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 22, 2005, 03:26 PM:
I thought that would be just incredibly obvious Leonard. I mean, a pile of cleanly killed coyotes, and a .17, it HAS to be Texas, right?
Naaw... That's an hour from my house, here in Utah.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 22, 2005, 03:36 PM:
Looks more like NV to me? 5 coyotes.
Tell me about your longer clean shots/kills with the 17 Predator? Bullet? Never had a runner?
Good hunting. LB
[ September 22, 2005, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 22, 2005, 04:07 PM:
That's the only day I've had it out calling so far. So, not a lot to tell yet. I'm using a 30 gr. bullet (BC = .270), at 4060 fps.
Longest shot was the first one, 250 yards, adult that weighed right at 30 pounds, standing broadside, hit perfect, bang-flop no exit.
Hit two that were running, with less than perfect shot placement. One hit the liver and clipped both lungs before exiting the offside ribcage with a quarter sized hole. She went about 20 feet, before going down. Went down where I couldn't see her so I just jumped up and ran over there, dead as a stone when I arrived. Other poor hit was a really poor hit. High front leg hit, between elblow and shoulder. Blew the leg off almost completely, it was hanging on by only a thread of skin. Deep nasty gash/wound across the throat, whether from bone fragment or bullet I don't know. Second, anchoring shot required. Others were close and easy, and text book .17 - bang flop no exit.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 22, 2005, 05:26 PM:
quote:
Longest shot was the first one, 250 yards, adult that weighed right at 30 pounds, standing broadside, hit perfect, bang-flop no exit.
That's the one I'm interested in. Pretty average Nevada shot, but I always thought it was beyond the abilities of the 17 Remington. Especially at night, you don't want to have to look for a runner. Of course, my experience was way back when the only bullet available was the 25 Hornady. But, it left me with the distinct impression that the Javalina, MK4, or the Remington were 150 yard guns. Opinions are hard to change.
Be sure and tell us more, as you get more.
Good hunting. LB
(an hour from SLC, right?)
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on September 22, 2005, 08:43 PM:
Leonard, Im going to have to drag my 17 Rem along for the hunt, so I can have you use it one morning. We can purposely, call one short, and have you get a long shot, so you can see the results. Ive killed more than a couple at the 300 yard mark, and one or two beyond, although Im a proponent of calling them in close, before yanking the trigger, but I always figured the 17 was sufficient out to 300.
You know my opinion on runners, regardless of what caliber you shoot, if you shoot enough coyotes, your going to have a runner. The bang/flop scenario differs more in regards to where, the coyote was hit, versus what, the coyote was hit with. A shot to the liver/rear lung area usually results with a death sprint, whether it was hit with a 17rem or a 25-06.
In my experience using the 17rem, and mine has several hundred under its belt, if I shoot a coyote center chest on a facing shot, or high and tight behind the shoulder on a broadside shot, I can usually count on a bang flop,most others, as long as vitals are hit, result in a spin and flop, or a short 20 yard run.
Ive seen coyotes hit with much bigger cannons, run a lot farther:)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 22, 2005, 09:21 PM:
CHEAP SHOT! CHEAP SHOT!
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on September 22, 2005, 09:28 PM:
DAA, my wife's step sister lives in Twin Falls and has a coyote problem that I volunteered you to solve
Good place to wring out that gun.
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 23, 2005, 05:15 AM:
Leonard,
My 223AI (the cannon), likes H335 as well. Thats behind a 52gr Amax. Killed alot of coyotes with it. Shoots alot like a 250, but with less exits and damage, on average. Great gun, in my book.
I was gonna sell it. But, my son loves to shoot it. Im going to keep it for him. More forgiving than the smaller calibers. When he gets older, he can graduate on down. I like shooting it as well.
Andy
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 23, 2005, 09:47 AM:
Here are some numbers to consider.
But first, before I put them out here, a couple of caveats that I’d like to be clear on. First and foremost, I’m not out to change any opinions. Trying to change minds is just not my game, period. Especially on the subject of .17’s and coyotes. I simply refuse to “debate” the subject with anyone as my time is too valuable to me to waste on that. I’ll occasionally try and post some facts, like I’m doing here, but I usually end up regretting even that. Second, while I’m about to give some numbers, which can be taken as “facts”, I’m more than well aware that numbers do not even begin to tell the whole story. Results in the field are what matter and numbers can be pretty misleading at times. Also, the old golf bag approach is still my method of operation. For me there is no single chambering, or rifle to cover every situation. Indeed, no cartridge based on the .223 would ever be my first choice for a night hunting rig.
So, anyway… Leonard you mentioned having a distinct impression that the .17 Rem. Is a 150 yard gun. That’s a pretty common impression. If you look at the 300 yard energy figures for your new .223AI vs. my .17 Predator though, you’d probably be surprised. Assuming that you’ll be getting 3450 fps with Sierra 1365’s (which would be my choice of bullet), at 300 yards you’ll have 647 ft/lb’s left, vs. 605 ft/lb’s for my 30 gr. Kindler’s leaving my .17P at 4060 fps. A difference of only 42 ft/lb’s at 300 yards. But it gets worse (for your .223AI) as distance increases. By 400 yards, you’re down to 477 ft/lb’s and my .17P is now slightly ahead with 492 ft/lb’s. And of course, the .17P pulls steadily ahead from there with the gap widening further as distance increases. That’s the energy numbers. The .17P just flat whomps the .223AI’s ass on trajectory and wind deflection – 6.3” of 10MPH wind deflection at 300 for the .17P vs. 10.3” for the .223AI (that really IS a pretty big difference!).
Now, I AM guilty of classic statistical manipulation here, in that I’m comparing my .17P, not the .17 Rem., and the .17P does have greater performance. If you wanted to switch things around a bit, and compare typical .17 Rem. Performance using the same 30 gr. Bullet, and say switch the 55GK in your .223AI for a more streamlined 55 Vmax, things would be different. But the real point is that the .17 caliber is capable of delivering significantly better downrange performance that most uniformed people tend to believe. The numbers above for my .17P are real, measured, working load numbers. Not theory. Simply put, it delivers 400 ft/lb’s of energy at 500 yards, has flatter trajectory and less wind drift than all but the very hottest .220 Swift 55 gr. Bullet loads, and delivers all this in a package that allows a clear view of shot impact through the scope and is generally very kind to fur. The rifle is just pure pleasure to shoot. Again, I am NOT trying to change opinions, I’m just excited about my new rifle – it kicks ass!
I ought to throw out a few numbers on the Tac .20 here too. But again, a couple quick caveats first. The big one is that I AM a fan of the .20’s. I think they have tremendous potential. The problem right now though, in my opinion, is bullet selection. That said, I’m confident that there will be a steadily increasing selection of better and better .20 caliber bullets becoming available. Chad has chosen the 35 Berger for his coyote loads. That’s the bullet I’m thinking I’ll most likely end up wanting to use in this Tac .20 as well. So, that’s the bullet I’m using for comparison sake here. I’m assuming 4000 fps muzzle velocity for it. Unfortunately, this bullet has a really poor BC of only .191, which really hampers it’s long range performance. On the other hand, in the real world, the poor long range numbers won’t actually make any difference most of the time. Anyway… Looking only at the numbers, and using the bullets and velocities already mentioned, the Tac .20 doesn’t compare too well to the others at 300 yards, and starts falling rapidly further behind from there. The 35 Berger starting at 4000 fps has only 530 ft/lb’s of energy left at 300, but does slightly beat the 55GK in 10MPH wind deflection with 9.6”. Again, I want to be really clear that I DO know how much different these numbers could be using different bullets. But, the fact is, that this is the bullet I think I’d be most likely to use on coyotes right now, so that’s the one I chose for comparison. And, although this load has less energy at 300 yards than either Leonard’s .223AI or my .17P, it’s not like 530 ft/lb’s isn’t “enough”. Again, it’s real world performance on the ground that matters, which only experience can tell us about, and the numbers be damned.
I think this should cover my usual “one long winded post every 3 months” quota, so I’ll now return you to your normal programming…
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on September 23, 2005, 10:29 AM:
Great post Dave.That .17 predator with the Kindlers really intrigues me.If I didn't love my .20 so much I might have to buy one. I really don't like the B.C(.191) on the 35 gr Berger either but it does seem to be the best COYOTE/FUR bullet available at this time.And for MOST of my shots it will do just fine(0-250).I too believe that there are going to be some better coyote bullets for the .20's in the near future.Then watch out! I know Nosler has announced that they will have a bullet/bullets coming out the first of Dec.I Heard it could be an Accubond 35-38 grain with High B.C (.280-.300)So that is promising.I'm sure that the better bullets will come,the .20 cal's are just to promising of a round not to succeed.I love my 22-250,223AI,and 221FB but they don't see much action anymore because I am having so much Damn fun shooting my .20. GOOD HUNTING Chad
[ September 23, 2005, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 23, 2005, 11:14 AM:
Excellent reply, Dave. I understand what you are doing, and it seems to be working, on paper and in the back of the truck. If, (big if) I were to come into some money, and needed a 17 to round out the arsenal, I would probably choose the Predator?
Golf bag. Same here, you are not going to catch me using anything less than 22-250 with 55 grain bullets, at night.
Golf bag. I have no intention of shooting this 223AI at anywhere near 300 yards, my guess is that I won't be using it at anything past 200 yards, and I have not crunched any numbers, but my intuition tells me that it should be adequate for that application, which is strictly daylight hunting in moderately heavy cover. By that I mean, views are restricted, here and there, so that most shooting won't be much beyond 100 yards. Not brush choked, in the classic sense.
For my purposes, I think it will do quite well, compared to those mentioned, and I have a definite preference for the 55 VMax, so I think it would/could stretch the (self imposed) limit to 300, if a crosser were to jump up? I'm not above drilling any coyote I see, regardless if it's called, or not.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on September 23, 2005, 02:25 PM:
Thanks for the post Dave!!
I will still be using the Tac20, but I just have to walk the 223AI, every once in a while. I'll have to vet wrap it though, as it is way to pretty and shiny.
I use the .243 at night, when I get a chance to go. Old habits are hard to break.
After owning and using a Tac20, I must say that for me bullet placement is crucial. I had to trail a few until I learned NOT to hold over/high in kill until 300. The runners that I had were from my error of shots high in the kill, or rather at my aiming point. Once I got used to the flat trajectory , with the 40gr berger, mine has performed quite nicely.
Dave , what is the 17Predator based on?
later pup
Posted by Andy L (Member # 642) on September 23, 2005, 03:14 PM:
Good post DAA.
I dont have the knowlege to even try to make a post like that. But, I have killed alot (relatively) of coyotes with the 223 AI. So, I do feel comfortable saying this.
Leonard, I understand you want to use the 55gr Vmax. At least take a look at the 52gr Amax. I had/have really good luck with it. Dont go out and load this without me looking, but I believe 26.8gr of H335 is what I loaded. I would have to look though. Not sure as I havent loaded any in a while. I usually load a buttload of ammo at a sitting and then dont have to for a long while. Although I need some more of them soon.
That bullet works very well for me. Alot of bang flops. It seems to do well if you hit a bone (penetrates without splash) and yet frangible enough to keep from having exits with a good chest shot (alot of the time).
Do what you want, of course, but I would definitely give that bullet a try. It does a fantastic job for me in my 223AI.
Good Luck
Andy
Posted by Lonny (Member # 19) on September 23, 2005, 04:14 PM:
Excellent piece of writing Dave!
You might not have set out to change anyone's mind but you threw out some very convincing evidence.
If I remember right, aren't you using a 26" Lilja barrel on your .17 Pred?
Another thing Dave. I was looking at the Mike Bryant custom rifles photo gallery and I noticed a Nesika K .243AI with a Nightforce scope. The owner had the same last name as yours and I wondered if there was a connection?
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on September 24, 2005, 05:42 PM:
Lonny, that Nesika .243AI was built for my Dad. It's mine now, and a mighty fine rifle. I'm using a 24" Lilja on my .17P. Dan Clements has a 26" on his, and gets about 50 fps more with the same loads, he's running the 30 Gold's at a solid 4100 fps. For me though, 24" is about as long as I care to go for a rifle that gets used on every stand.
- DAA
Posted by Timberghozt (Member # 707) on September 24, 2005, 06:06 PM:
Hey Leonard.Just my two cents worth bud but I use Varget in my 223AI.Mine is a 16 inch stainless steel fluted bull barrel with a 1 in 9 inch twist.I am able to keep it under 1/2 inch if Im shooting good that day.Kirby Allen of Allen precision shooting managed to group it near 1/4 inch with a 40 gr Sierra Blitzking using either H335 or BLC-2,I can`t recall exactly his choice of powder.I will accept sub 1/2 inch any day at 100 yards prone with a bag on the front.I use Varget in my regular 223 Rem that I coyote hunt with using 40 grain Hornady VMAX and it shoots routinely in the low .3`s.I also use it in my 7x57 custom,and both of my 308 Wins.The velocity may not be as much as with BL(C)-2 but the accuracy is there and thats what I`m after.H335 OR VARGET OR Win 748 are relatively close in burnrate so any would likely be a good choice along with Hodgdons BenchMark I have heard great stuff about.I`ll be sticking with VARGET though.I have about 10 different powders I use and I don`t really want to buy any new kinds.Id rather buy Varget in 8pound jugs than a pound of this,pound of that kinda thing.If you are interested in any specific accuracy load with Varget,Ill be glad to share just let me know...
This is how it shoots prone with bags.Off the bench it should be much better as Kirby said he was able to get it.I don`t see as well as I once did but this plenty coyote killing close enough for me..
I`m fixing to do some 75 gr AMAX loads too with it.I was able to get sub 1 inch groups easily in intial testing with them and I used 68 gr Hornady BTHP`s in it in an online challenge with 3, 10 shot ,100 yard groups sub 1 inch averaged..I like the 223 AI a lot.I like a 220 Swift more but it is fun to play with these AI`s..
[ September 24, 2005, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Timberghozt ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on September 24, 2005, 11:48 PM:
Yeah, just something different. For serious hunts, I would use something with a little more authority, but I'm a little more laid back nowadays. I have hunted a lot of contests and want anything called to be killed dead. That means 220 Swift, or better, for me.
I haven't decided on powder, I was looking at some Accurate 2460, showed good numbers and I have a private party wants to sell an 8 lb jub for $70. If he answers his phone, maybe I might go that way? If he don't I might buy either Varget or 335?
Good hunting. LB
UBB.classicTM
6.3.0