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Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 08, 2004, 11:42 AM:
Have you ever been let down by 223 performance?
Forget bullets and other caliber choices, for a minute. Do you have absolute confidence, or have you ever lost what should have been a routine kill?
Let me state, for the record; I have lost animals with more powerful cartridges. I want to know if you are sold on the 223 Remington as a perfect coyote killer.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by MJM (Member # 270) on April 08, 2004, 02:48 PM:
Sold on it .....YES...... Perfect round ......No...... but what is the perfect round really ...... some have a longer effective range, some have a MUCH longer effective range, the long distance hitters tend to be harder on close in coyotes. Then there are the close in hitters, these are good for close coyotes and fox and they tend to be quieter making them neighbor friendly. It's my view that the perfect cartridge is prefect when held in a very narrow field, outside of that field they are to powerful, to weak, to loud, to much or to little.
A few years ago I built what then was going to be a fox gun, 22" 223 rem. on a Ruger #3. The gun and my prefered load proved to be VERY rough on foxes, but at reasonable ranges would flat dump a coyote. This turned into my rifle of choice and its hard to grab anything else anymore. Even when a bigger rifle would probably do a better job.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on April 08, 2004, 04:05 PM:
I have an opinion, but most .223 guys ain't gonna like it. I have seen more follow ups required with a .223 than all other varmint calibers combined. It isn't enough gun. I have one, and I kill coyotes with it, but am not impressed with the actual killing power. It just doesn't seem to have the poop to send that "shock wave" effect through a coyote. You guys that have shot alot of coyotes know the one I mean. The one where the whole body goes stiff for an instant when they are on the way to the ground.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 08, 2004, 04:50 PM:
Cal, I hate to totally give away my position right up front, because some folks out there probably think I don't want to be argued with, which is far removed from the truth of the matter. I simply enjoy the dialogue, and find the debate stimulating.
But, buddy. (gulp) You nailed it for me.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 08, 2004, 06:42 PM:
I've shot more coyotes with a .223 than any of the other calibres I own. I have absolute confidence in my rifle-caliber-bullet combo. Tyler uses a .223 almost exclusively (he uses the K-hornet for settled areas) and he hasn't ever lost one that he shot with it. Granted, it does not blow the coyote stiff as the hotter numbers do and we take 90% of our shots whithin 50-60 yards, but Tyler took one at 350 + yards this year and I've taken a few at extended ranges with the proper performance results. I used a 6MM JDJ for the competition hunts this year because I just wanted it done with. Kinda like Hitman243, who says he uses a 95 gr Nosler BT in his 243 "Because I want a hole in the coyote big enough to stick my boot in." If I were to switch barrels to my .223 I would still carry it on stand with absolute confidence. If I were hunting terrain like Cal or Q and 350 plus yard shots were not uncommon I would carry my 22-250 AI or .243, something with more downrange punch.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 08, 2004, 08:36 PM:
Yeah....That stiffened,jolt of electricity posture. The last coyote I shot this season did that number, slightly quartering,facing shot at a paced 65 yards. She came sneaking thru the cresote brush with head down, just as she cleared the last branch, she paused, I settled the crosshair right at the bottom of the white throat latch, and pressed the trigger. She did that tight lipped death grin, as she keeled over backwards on stiffened haunches, with just a bit of the quivers, as they are prone to do when hit with such force. That was coyote number 16 with my .17HMR:)
Ive shot my share of coyotes with a .223 before wading into never land with my .17s and .19, and have utter faith in it. When asked by newbies what caliber is a good one to predator hunt with, I most always recommend the .223, unless I know the guy is "gunny", then I might throw out the .22-250 as a great one.
Ive seen way to many coyotes shot with more substantial calibers, fall down then get up and hit the burners, to think that bigger is really better. For almost any calling application, I can't see where the .223 is sucking hind tit to any caliber.I know the arguement always arises, concerning the open prairie calling, and dogs that don't come in as hard as our poor,simple minded Arizona coyotes:) Guys that have to take shots the other side of 200 yards, I suppose are better served with .243s and the speedy 25s.
For any calling situation I can think of in Arizona, I would feel totally comfortable using my Rem. model 7 .223, with Nosler 50 or 55 grain Ballistic Tips, and fully expect any coyote I shot right, to fall down.
Posted by Tim Behle (Member # 209) on April 08, 2004, 09:31 PM:
"Perfect" No. If it was, I wouldn't consider my .223 as a loaner, or the kids rifle. I like it, and it will put down a coyote with a bad hit better than my 17 Remington. But then if you shoot a coyote in the guts, neither are worth a damn.
I think the perfect rifle is as diverse as are hunters. I like the 17 Remington for calling, and the 7mm RM for howling. Some like the 22-250 AI or 243. Vic manages to do pretty dag gone good with that little 17 HMR.
To each his own, as long as it isn't one of those ugly, murderous AR's, who cares?
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on April 08, 2004, 09:45 PM:
I think the bullet is more important than the caliber. That said, if they are ready to die the 223 is fine. If they are not ready to die even the 243 won't stop them, even with perfect shot placement and perfect bullet performance. With most bullets, the 223 is better than the 22-250 because the higher velocity of the 22-250 causes the bullets to expand too fast and not penetrate. With a tougher bullet the 22-250 is better, but only with a tougher bullet, not the varmint type bullets many are shooting.
Jack
Posted by Saddlemaker (Member # 321) on April 08, 2004, 09:53 PM:
Is your question will a .223 kill a coyote if hit in the vitals with a well constructed bullet at a reasonable range?
In my opinion bullet design, striking velocity and shot placement are what give me confidence. Shot placement being the most important.
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on April 08, 2004, 10:31 PM:
I currently have 5 .223s. A contender, two 700s, (a BDL and a varmint,) an AK .223 bullet hose and a 788 Remington. I am sure to go strait to Hell for all the critters I have murdered in my misguided youth with this cartridge. One prairie dog season I burned up 2 8lb kegs of BLC 2. I love the round dearly but it didn’t have what it took to make the grade for a go to coyote rifle.
I think it was the winter of 92-93 that I retired it as my coyote round. I took 85 coyotes that season but should have had a lot more. The added effective range of the swift made a lot of difference and my coyote numbers made a jump to prove it. The very next season after making the switch I shot around 130 or so.
Another local coyote hunter made the same transition many years before I even started calling. He was loosing coyotes he should have also. What really did it for him was when he compared the two side by side. He put two fist sized limestone rocks on fince posts and shot them with both. One with the .223 and the other with the .220 swift. The rock shot with the .223 basically poofed a bit and fell off in two or three peaces. The swift literally smoked it. Marble sized pieces were about as big as you could find at the base of the post.
I know that is not a scientific approach to comparing cartridges but that’s just what he did. Regardless he hasn’t gone back once after more than 20 years. I wouldn’t be the least bit afraid of using it for coyotes but I won’t. Not in this country anyway. When you start sacrificing power and range you are sacrificing coyotes. That’s not on my “to do” list when I hunt. If I wanted sport not fur I would take a bow. LOL
The best combination I have used on coyotes with the .223 is with the same bullet I am using in my swift. The Nosler 55gr BT.
Perfect? No, the swift is. LOLIt is all about shot placement with the swift ya know. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on April 09, 2004, 06:34 AM:
Just a quick added note, and something to think about. I probably personally know between 20 and 30 different men that make their living, or the majority of it from hunting and trapping coyotes. Some are privately employed and some for public entities from federal to state to county. I do not know of ONE single guy that uses a .223 or .17 of any kind. Not one. Out of those, I pretty sure the swift is king, with the various 6mms following, and the 22-250 is left sucking hind tit, but I do know a couple guys that use it too.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 09, 2004, 08:16 AM:
Hey Jack,
you said
" If they are not ready to die even the 243 won't stop them, even with perfect shot placement and perfect bullet performance."
Have the Nevada coyotes discovered Kevlar?
Perhaps there is something more sinister afoot. Before I hunt Nevada again I will have a priest bless my bullets and maybe sprinkle a little holy water on them.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 09, 2004, 08:28 AM:
Jack,
Good news!!!
I have found a source for Kryptonite bullets!
All is not lost!
Posted by MJM (Member # 270) on April 09, 2004, 08:41 AM:
Many times in the past I've written, "If a critter absolutely has to die right there and right now, in the wind, in the rain, in any condition, I grab my 243Win. and have at it." Most ADC type hunters don't give a damn about saving hides so big holes don't matter. If I were in that business I'd pile as much powder into a case as I could for an accurate safe load and press a 70gr Nosler BT on top of it. With this combination holes big enough to stick your boot in is a no problem situation. I can't say the same about the 223, sure I've gotten some big holes but it is not as common.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on April 09, 2004, 11:12 AM:
OK, MJM,
When would be the time that you didn't want them to die right there and right now. Is there a time that you want them to lope off a ways to die? Don't you usually call in the various weather conditions mentioned?
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 09, 2004, 11:26 AM:
I must confess I have had some runners with my .223 too. Nothing worse than lining the crosshairs up right on the chest and >>BANG FLOP >> and up and running for a 100 yards.I still use mine once in a while for coyotes,but 90% of the time I carry my 22-250.I just love the way coyotes just stiffin up and die with my 22-250.I love shooting stuff with the .223 just not coyotes..GOOD HUNTING C.O
Posted by varmit hunter (Member # 37) on April 09, 2004, 11:31 AM:
Nope.
Posted by MJM (Member # 270) on April 09, 2004, 02:05 PM:
Cal - I feel sort of a challenge commin' on. Okay I'll bite. Fro a number of years the Arizona Trappers association was involved in a running legal fight to return the right to trap on public land. I would shoot and skin every decent coyote shot and donate the hide to them. I wanted to keep the hides as saleable as possible. That is when I started using smaller rifles. I dropped from the 243 to a 22-250 then built the 223 and moved to that. My salable hide number went up signifigantly. The coyotes were just as dead and I saw no reduction in numbers.
But when hides are worthless, or when there is a problem coyote to be removed, or anytime that I feel the absolute need to take any and all coyotes no matter the conditions I grab my 243 and on some occasions I've grabbed my 7mm mag.
I don't hunt as hard as I once did (time is limited these days) and I don't donate my hides anymore, but the 223 still fits my hand very nicely, I trust it, its my old friend, we are a high percentage killing team, in the conditions I hunt in I'd put my kill percentage up against anybodies.
Make no mistake about this though, I'm a believer in a person using whatever gun best fits his own personal hand. I've been around hese boards about as long as anybody, I know that Leonard likes to use the hard hitters, 22-250AI's, the occasional Swift, 6mm's and the 25-06. "Q" loves his 220 swift, you like the big stuff I can't remember what but the 243 and 25-06 come to mind. Rich Higgins likes encores (Sorry Rich, until now the contender and Encore seemed like much the same bread of cat to me I stand corrected) and the 223. Others like JH, Norm, Vic, Dogboy, tactical20, tackdriver and many others like the smaller calibers in the .17 and .20 range. Then there is the AR crowd with their .17's, .20's, 223's, 6mm's. Bottom line is all of it works for the guys that kill a lot of coyotes. What works for them works for them. But for me personally, if I were making a living removing problem animals, animals that absolutely have to be killed, I'd grab the biggest appropriate rifle that I had and have at it. What that rifle is would vary depending on the country Iwas expected to work. For my country the 243 is plenty, for other country the 25-06 might not be enough.
Edit: a slip up in one of the names I used Byron when I was thinking "Q". Byron is an AR guy. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ April 10, 2004, 12:43 PM: Message edited by: MJM ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 09, 2004, 03:26 PM:
MIchael, I've handled only one Encore. It felt heavy, awkward and at odds to my sense of balance, compared to my beautiful, light, wonderfully accurate and perfectly balanced Contenders.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2004, 05:15 PM:
Along the lines of Cal's observation about all his friends and neighbors.
(and Danny will bear me out) I know very very few, if any(?) NIGHT hunters that use a 223. Okay, I just remembered, Randy Watson uses one, but I mean out here, local California contest hunters. I'm positive none uses a seventeen.
The reason is that we need them slammed hard, to simplify retrieval. The harder you hit them, the less they move. You need to be able to walk out to the exact spot, tracking at night is an acquired skill, believe that.
So, different applications. Heaven knows, Arizona coyotes come in close enough to brain with a rock. A nice handling 223 is generally adequate, especially if it's casual hunting.
But, I detect a trend. The guys from the wide open spaces seem to show a preference for a little more gun. Count me among those.
Of course, Jack makes a valid point. Bullets are always important. But that's an entirely different subject.
I'm talking about a specific bore and a specific case capacity; the 223. And, of course, in an AR, we lose just a little more, don't we?
The 223 doesn't smack a coyote hard enough, at least for my tastes. It is my belief and conviction.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on April 09, 2004, 05:25 PM:
Anybody that shoots any number of coyotes at all is going to have cripples get away no matter what you shoot. We can all agree on that I would hope? What is too much and what is too little? That is the burdening question. A good coyote hunter can make a .17 hmr shine just as he could a 300 Win mag. Shot placement should be important no matter which of the two cartridges you are using. Right?
My opinion is that to have a good coyote rifle you need to have one that will get through the shoulder out to at least a couple hundred yards. If it can’t penetrate the shoulder then it isn’t worth a $hit in my mind. The shoulder covers up too much vital area for me to worry about missing. I am not going to go into the field knowing that I have to avoid hitting the shoulder to ensure a clean kill. Won’t do it.
I also don’t feel comfortable shooting a coyote with a rifle that will not pass through the ribs and exit the other side. Inside to inside of the ribs is 3 or 4 inches. Any bullet that can’t penetrate 4 lousy inches of coyote isn’t enough bullet for me. All though frontal or broad side shots are always a priority I will take what I can get as will most all coyote hunters. If I catch one quartering away in the flanks I want a bullet with good penetration not one that will dissolve before it even makes it to the liver. That is not a real common shot but it happens enough to justify a little extra penetration. With the right bullet it will do all that I as of it “but” a swift will do all of the above “better.”
The line between better and best is very blurry. Recoil is a “real world” factor on shot placement. Bad hits can, not always, be caused by excessive recoil. Personally I don’t like shooting anything larger than a 6mm because of recoil. It is not because it is painful to me. It is because I can consistently shoot much better with a lower recoiling rifle. I cant say what the best cartridge is but I think the swift comes closer than the .223 does.
quote:
So, different applications. Heaven knows, Arizona coyotes come in close enough to brain with a rock. A nice handling 223 is generally adequate, especially if it's casual hunting.
Not looking for a confrontation are you Leonard. LOL I heard that all you need in California is a Whiffle ball bat. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 09, 2004, 05:37 PM:
Scott Huber's take,
"
Date: 4/9/04 11:35:08 AM US Mountain Standard Time
To: Richaz1221@aol.com
Sent from the Internet (Details)
I had a .223 for a fox/coyote combination gun but I have shot .22/250s for
many years for coyotes. The Swift is a tremendous coyote rifle for this
country.
One problem with Cal's statement is that there is a big difference between
selecting calibers that are suitable for coyotes for year round damage
shooting in areas where winds are high and situations where fur is not
utilized and comparing that to close contact FUR hunting in Arizona where
you are shooting off hand. Apples and oranges!
There is no way anyone that has an understanding of the differences from one
area to the next can make a "one size fits all" caliber statement. I don't
know anyone that shoots a .17 in this country either but after seeing the
"Gods" calling situations and how many coyotes are shot offhand, I wouldn't
hesitate to use a .17 where and when they are calling. You also cannot
compare a 50 pound New York coyote to a smaller Arizona coyote when chosing
correct calibers to put them down either.
You are more than welcome to pass this information on as I don't have time
to.
Later!
~SH~
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on April 09, 2004, 05:39 PM:
I wasn't issuing a challenge of any type MJM, just going by what you had said in your post, about if you wanted a coyote dead, right there, and right now. I didn't figure you wanted them any other way. And if your .223 works for that then so it is. Leonards original question had to do with feeling let down by .223 Rem performance and I have never been impressed with the round as a whole for coyotes. Now, keep in mind I don't have Arizona or Texas coyotes and country to compare to. My whole outlook might change if I hunted there alot. My perspective is bound to be alot different than most. If I want fur, I trap. It's that simple. I will skin some coyotes in the winter that I have shot for sure, and I will do a little sewing if needed. Most of my calling experience has came from guys that were employed one way or the other doing nothing but ADC work at some level, and I made my living that way for a few years, so I am biased to the heavier side for sure. I'm with Quinton on the statement that he made about the sporting challenge, if I wanted to hunt coyotes for the least fur damage and the most challenge, I would use a bow and arrow. But my goal after I have called a coyote is for that coyote to be dead. And for me the heavies work better. But I do have a .223 and I have killed and will kill more coyotes with it. But in pure preference, I also have a Swift, a .243, and a 25-284, that get the most use.
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on April 09, 2004, 05:42 PM:
That came up at the same time, Rich! LOL!
But, Scott pretty much said the same as I did. My opinion might change drastically if I were in different territory.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2004, 05:48 PM:
That's true, Cal. A point well taken. But, that's the point, here. In some country, a 223 is on the light side. What we are finding out, it all depends on your motivation, and as with real estate; it's location, location, location. Notice that Rich, Vic and Michael all live and hunt in Ariazona.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 09, 2004, 05:50 PM:
Ariazona?
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 09, 2004, 07:58 PM:
Basically it is a matter of terminal performance. At normal Az calling ranges the .223 romps and stomps with the big ones. At extended ranges it runs out of steam before the hot numbers do. The limit with my loads/bullets, however, is a very long 300 yards.
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on April 09, 2004, 09:48 PM:
I don't know,it must be a regional thing? I had to grin at Cals statement, concerning the guys he knows that are serious coyote hunters, none of which use the .223 or smaller stuff, but prefer the .243 or other 6mms et al. Here in Arizona,among the guys I consider serious predator hunters, it is just the opposite. Almost no one I personally know, uses anything larger than .22-250, with the .223 being the most popular, as well as a smattering of the wee stuff,.22 hornet, .17 Rem and the other 17/19 wildcats. Most of the fellas I meet or run into in the field that are very occasional predator hunters,or are wanting to become one, are the guys using the .243s,25s,.270 etc.I'll qualify that some, so as to not bring Tim down on my head:) He uses the big guns for a different application. He loves long range shooting,emphasis on the long:) so his big 7s and 300s suit his demands. His methods and setup is completely different than when calling in the traditional sense.Im sure he would agree that under usual Arizona calling circumstances,he and I both, are as comfortable with our BB guns craddled in our lap as we would be with a 243.
I don't think Ive ever been let down by the .223s performance....only my own performance, buy trying to wring more out of the cartridge than it can deliver at reasonable calling ranges.
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on April 09, 2004, 10:18 PM:
I have shot coyotes on the east coast and in the west. They all can be hard to kill, but the eastern ones are the hardest to kill. Although western ones are pretty hard to kill too. A friend and I once shot a NM coyote at 20 feet in the left and right side with 22-250s. The two shots anchored it but it was far from dead. It took a shot just under the chin going the full length of the body to end it.
Jack
Posted by Cal Taylor (Member # 199) on April 10, 2004, 06:41 AM:
Well, What I was actually saying AZ was about guys that make the majority or all of their living hunting and trapping coyotes. I was just talking about the guys that I know that are either Federal, State, County, or privately employed as coyote killers, and their choice of weapons. But the situation is somewhat different, I'll admit. They are in a different position on killing coyotes. For me it's not the range justification. It's about the angles. Rich was talking about his .223 being a legit 300 yd rifle, and I beleive thats true, but its not a 300 yd rifle if you don't have a perfect shot, at the perfect angle. When you call in a double for example, how many times does that second coyote either give you a straight away or bad quarter away shot, even if you do get him stopped. That shot isn't good with a .223. Back to what I said earlier, my goal is for that coyote to be dead, I'm not into call and release hunting. I want enough gun to take that shot and anchor that coyote. I might be at a contest where I need that coyote, or I might be working for someone that really needs that coyote dead. Whatever the case, that is not the place for a .223 or .17. It's all about the angles, not the range, or at least thats how I see it, most of the coyotes I shoot in a year are within 200 yds or less, but not all of them are broadside or facing me.
I can shoot right through a shoulder or hip and lay out a coyote, I know, cause I've seen me do it............
[ April 10, 2004, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Cal Taylor ]
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on April 10, 2004, 08:06 AM:
It appears to me that the main issue here is the running dead. That one or two seconds of thinking about the need to put another round in the first one, can cost you the second one. Shouldn't matter if you are a recreational caller or do it for a living, that distraction will cost you coyotes.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 10, 2004, 08:13 AM:
Cal, I agree with you completely. I stated in my first post that I use my 6 on competition hunts because losing one runner hit badly with a lesser bullet could mean the loss of a trophy for my boy. If the only shot on a coyote is given when he stops and looks back over his shoulder three ridges over I want something that I know will breakdown his hips at that range.
However I also said I have confidence in my .223 "rifle/bullet combination". I use the Sierra #1365 and it does make a difference. Tyler uses a 50 gr Nosler BT and as you said it will not breakdown the heavy bones at bad angles. My Sierras will. When I come up there next month I'll bring some with me for you to try. They'll make a Christian of you.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 10, 2004, 08:55 AM:
This is likely to boil down to motivation, what's your purpose, etc.
As Rich said, when talking to the Hitman, I mostly want a nice size hole drilled completely through my coyotes.
Even though Quinton sells fur, he is looking for some sort of compromise between minimal destruction and runners.
I love the comment by Dennis! I do not want the distraction of a fussing coyote when dealing with multiples. The distraction is enough to cause a bad hit, or worse, using the second bullet on the first animal, at the expense of the second animal.
However, at least Rich knows a good bullet when he sees it. That Sierra 55 grain Spitzer is almost perfect, if you want dead coyotes.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JoeF (Member # 228) on April 13, 2004, 07:02 PM:
I hunt country that makes the Az. territory seem like the wide open spaces and love the 223 dearly - I agree that it's on the light side of what works good. Inside of 100 yards I have no complaints.
Ignoring bullet choice, I'd give the worst performer nod to 6mm's. That said considering what any given person is shooting on any given day....
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 14, 2004, 01:18 PM:
I Definitely think choice of bullet is very important.I tried 50 grain bullets for my .223 ackley last season and was very disappointed.For Coyotes I think you are better served with at least 55 grain bullets.And for me I like a little bigger gun(22-250).
I am speaking specifically for calling in situations where you are shooting anywhere between 50 and 400 yards.
I'm with Leonard,I want a Bang Flop Dead coyote.
I can live with a little sewing,but I really hate wasting my time chasing and/or looking for coyotes that have run off after being hit.
To say you won't ever get a runner with the bigger 22's and 24's isn't realistic but I think runners are the exception not the rule. GOOD HUNTING C.O
[ April 14, 2004, 01:19 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Byron South (Member # 213) on April 14, 2004, 09:46 PM:
95% of my coyotes are shot under 150 yards and most of that are shot under 75 yards. I shoot what most would consider heavy bullets (60 grn). for several years I've been shooting the hornady soft points and have been very pleased. I recently went to the 60 V-Max and so far I'm likeing them. I see on these boards all the time people touting the 40-50 grain stuff in their 223's and 250's. It makes me cringe and wonder how many coyotes they have shot with them. I know they kill but they will also splash alot.If I was having to shoot at coyotes consistently at longer ranges, say over 200-400 yards I would probably go to a bigger gun. I love heavy for caliber bullets in everything I shoot. Hell, I load 180 grain bullets in my 300wsm for Texas deer. I don't hunt for meat. I hunt for big horns. When I see a deer I want, I can wreck him from stem to stern. Before somebody jumps on me. I do clean and eat everything thats left when I through killing him, and usually find that the bigger bullets tore up less than the smaller ones. I, like Q, try for shoulder shots and want both of them if I can get them. The 223 has plenty to do that under 200 with heavier bullets and plenty flat enough for center shoulder holds. I also get that shock effect that Cal mentioned but only at the closer ranges that I shoot most of my coyotes. Balistically speaking the faster rifles like the swift act the same as the 223 does only 100 or so further down range. I just looked up the velocities of my favorite 60 grain bullet. Out of my AR I'm running 3100 at the muzzle. The 220 is running the same bullet 3199 fps at 100 yards. So youv'e gained 100 or so yards buy choosing the swift over the 223. If you consistntly need the extra you'd be a fool not to get it. If I lived where Cal, or Q do I would deffinately shoot something bigger Probably a 25-06 or there bouts. So to answer your question Leonard. For 95% of MY coyote killing, it's just about right .
Byron
Edited to say: Excuse the spelling, and I'm not gonna fix it. It's late and I'm going to bed. Good night .
[ April 15, 2004, 04:29 PM: Message edited by: Byron South ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 15, 2004, 10:51 AM:
Good post, Byron. I can agree with a lot of your reasoning, and I also like a heavier bullet.
I'm mildly surprised that a knowledgeable predator hunter like UTcaller would be using a 50 grain bullet in his 22-250AI. 50 lashes with a wet noodle, buddy!
Anyway, a good concept, I think. A Swift performs just like a 223, only 150 yards down range. Kind of a bonus, but who needs it when you are killing all your coyotes inside 75 yards, right?
I wish I could give somebody a straight answer when they ask a simple question like; "what's the average distance that you shoot coyotes?" I might shoot one at 175 and the next is 250, followed by three inside 75 yards; adding them up and spitting out an average distance just doesn't tell the whole story.
I remember a hunt, quite a few years ago, where Pat and I took another guy along, and it was just one of those nights. I made nine, 250 yard head shots, in a row. I have no explanation? The coyotes would light up, approach normally, to a point, but we couldn't get them to come any closer. This is something we seem to notice, the closer we get to Utah, and the road hunters. No offense to any members, but this is what we see, a certain pattern, in eastern Nevada.
So, anyway. This man initially thought it was a routine night hunt, but it sure as heck was not. We just did what needed to be done? You may say that a 223 is adequate for that application and we would have to pleasantly disagree.
I'd like to understand the rationale for using a light caliber. Would I take a dirt road a hundred miles long on a half a tank of gas? I might not NEED a full tank, but it is a comfort to know that I have it, especially when I reach the other end, and find out that the only gas station is closed, until morning. I remember asking the local Marshall, in Pichoche to wake up the owner of the gas station. He said he would, but would appreciate it; if we bought more gas than "just enough" to get us into Las Vegas. So, when getting off in the dirt, I always like to have a full tank.
Shooting coyotes, to my mind, is much the same. Why use half a gun?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 15, 2004, 12:12 PM:
HALF A GUN??? You call my beautiful lil Contender half a gun?
Now you've done it Leonard. Fightin' words.
Anyone compelled to use a bigger gun than .223 is obviously compensating for inadequate hunting skills, inadequate accuracy skills and probably an itty, bitty pecker.
(disclaimer: the preceding is a broadside aimed at Leonard's gauche gaffe. Anyone who shoots a larger caliber who is bigger and meaner than I am, please disregard.)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 15, 2004, 01:23 PM:
You got me there, Rich. I don't know very much about peckers.
But, I do know the type of hunting I do, and what's required of the gun I use. A 223 is less than adequate.
For you, you have reached a conclusion that is contrary, and you are happy. That's all that counts.
When we go night hunting in Nevada, I want you to use that gun. Of course, you will have to shag them yourself, so I hope they keel over nicely. No pressure, (okay?) but I'll hold the light all night, all you have to do is drill 'em and stack 'em.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 15, 2004, 01:46 PM:
Leonard,I wish I were speaking of 50 grain bullets in a 22-250AI,but all I have is a 223AI
I don't use 50 grain bullets for coyotes anymore,and I don't use the 223AI very much for coyotes anymore either.
When my 22-250 Rem. barrel won't shoot straight anymore I plan on rebarreling in 22-250 AI if that counts for anything
As far as the road riders in Utah goes,I couldn't agree more.
That's why I mostly go on road trips anymore....NEVADA,IDAHO,and WYOMING.....GOOD HUNTING C.O
[ April 25, 2004, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 15, 2004, 05:13 PM:
You sound like my kind of guy, Chad. Love my road trips.
Sorry about my mistake, there is so much to remember, and I guess I had a senior moment or something?
Hmmm, can you share with us, exactly why you aren't using that 223Ackley any more? Maybe we tend to agree on what's needed in those places that we both frequent, namely; the whole danged Great Basin. I know what it's like, and what I expect to see, and what I need to get the job done. There HAS to be other places where a little more energy comes in handy?
I think Rich is just yankin' my chain. If he was hunting a little further north, he would leave his neato, (and beautiful) Contender at home, in the rack.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 15, 2004, 05:20 PM:
"I think Rich is just yankin' my chain. If he was hunting a little further north, he would leave his neato, (and beautiful) Contender at home, in the rack."
First sentence is right.
Second one is wrong. I'd just leave my 6mm barrel on it. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 16, 2004, 09:32 AM:
Leonard, I really do enjoy shooting My 223 AI.It is a fun little gun to shoot.It is a Contender Carbine,with a 22" barrel.
And to say I don't shoot it at coyotes anymore is not totally true.
I bought it because I read so much about how it was so close to the 22-250 that once you bought one(223AI) you wouldn't go back to the 250.
Lightweight rifle less recoil less powder how could I go wrong. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Well needless to say it didn't hold up to the hype.
I took it to Nevada last year to try it out.Hit a couple coyotes at 250+ yards one went down after a 50 yard run, the other got away.The one I ended up getting was hit right where I wanted to hit it,the one that got away,I can't say for sure but it sure dropped like a rock before it jumped up and ran off.
I did shoot a couple others that were BANG FLOP,but they were 75-150 yard shots.So after that trip and a couple other experiences I decided that once in a while when I KNOW I will be calling in an area where my shots will be 0-180 yards max because of visibility I will take the 223 Ackley(3400fps-1412lbs),because I have limited confidence in it at these ranges.
But most of the time when I need that extra 100 to 200 yards of punch at any given time in the open country of Utah, Nevada and Wyoming,or when I am doing some night calling,I'll have my 22-250(3700fps-1672lbs).
I want to try the Sierra #1365's for my AI to see if that will make a difference.I like 55 grain Nosler BT for my 22-250. Hope that anwsered your question.GOOD HUNTING C.O
[ April 16, 2004, 10:40 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on April 17, 2004, 08:57 AM:
I hunt some of the most open calling ground there is. The .223 has performed just dandy for me. This year I used a .223 for almost all my calling. The one shot bang flops were monotonous. Cartridge choice is one of the least important factors in successful coyote calling/killing. Effective calling, handling the coyote once it arrives, and most important putting the bullet where it should go, are way more important than wasting time arguing over how big the hole in the end of your barrel should be.
I used to think using a .17 was ridiculous for coyotes. Too many guys are successfully whacking coyotes with this cartridge for it to be ignored though. Some guys I really respect make that round work well for them.
Leonard asked at the beginning of the thread..."have you ever lost what should have been a routine kill? To that I say "Yes" but it was with my .243 and it had a nice rest in the corner all season this year and last. I just don't have confidence in this rifle after the lackluster results I've had so far. I had more runners with that caliber than any of the others I use. Is it the .243 caliber's fault? No. I think it was the bullet I was using. I didn't have time to mess with it when the .223 and 22-250 was doing just fine. I may try to work out the bugs this summer.
In my opinion the .223 is one of the most efficient cartridges for coyotes. It has let me down less than the rest. No it is not a long distance cartridge but out of my 24" AR performance mirrors my 22-250 and is more accurate too. Out to 250+ yards it works fine for me and that is all the farther I care to shoot them. Even in the wide open areas I call, most shots are betwwen 25 and 150 yards. Shooting much farther than 300 with any cartridge is where you start having runner problems I think. Too much can go wrong. Nothing against those that do it. Just not my style. I just prefer to call them into reasonable shooting range.
I love my 22-250 and never thought I'd prefer anything over it. Used it steady for years as well as a Swift. But the one true runner I had this year was with my 22-250. Shot a coyote broadside about 35 yards and it sprinted off out of sight with me fumbling for the bolt and making a rushed second shot that missed. I was under the impression I missed the first shot too. The coyote showed no sign of being injured when it ran. When I went up the draw 150 yards or so I found the coyote with a tennis ball size hole on the far side right behind the shoulder. How it ran I'll never know. A second coyote showed right after the runner and shoved his nose in the caller speaker and he dropped like a rock. This stuff happens. Go figure.
If a fella can't get the coveted "bang flop" with whatever cartridge he is using he needs to address some other issues other than the cartridge choice in my opinion. Either he needs more time at the shooting range or a change in bullet choice or he just shot one of those freak "Terminator" coyotes that won't die.
Yes I've had runners in years past but this year I think I had the least. That is no BS. The only real runner problem I had was them running in so fast. Had to shoot a few on the run. Besides the one mentioned above and one other instance where a coyote my hunting partner shot managed to recover enough to attempt an escape and required a follow up, it was more like a couple attempted "get ups" which may or may not have gotten up. They were still stirring and rather than risk them making an escape I just put a second shot in. Fortunately with an AR the "couple" times that happened, I was just able to stay on target and give a second quick shot. I have had this happen in the past with other calibers so it is not a .223 thing. Q is right in saying everybody has runners but like I said, this year I used the .223 almost exclusively and it was one of the best years ever as far as performance goes and lack of runners. Granted I only take about 1/2 the coyotes Quinton does but it is enough to show whether I have a runner problem.
Those that mentioned bullet selection are right on the money. That goes for every cartridge. It is the single most controllable factor in how well that cartridge will perform. And a bullet that performs well in one gun might not perform as well in another. Case in point. Hornady SX and V-Max bullets. Some have great luck with the SX. They fragment about 50 yards out of my rifles though. Some loathe the V-Max and complain about bullet splash. I had great results with that bullet when I used it. Never experienced the splash out of my 22-250. Didn't shoot well out of my .223 though so did not use it. Twist rate, bore smoothness or lack of it, do funny things to thin jackets I believe hence the different performance out of different rifles.
I like heavier bullets like Byron and Leonard said. 55 gr. is as light as I prefer in the .22s. The 60 gr HPs hit like a hammer. Using 55 and 60 gr. SPs and 60 gr. HPs I got consistent far side exits if that is what a fella wants. Personally I don't. I want my bullet to go in and dump all it's energy inside the animal but that's just me. I've been using a Sierra 55 gr. HP the last few years that fills my needs. In my rifle it does what I want. It goes in and the coyote is anchored. Simple as that. Not suggesting anyone change to what I use. Experiment and develop your own most effective hunting load that does what you want it to do. I still have to do that with my .243.
.17 to .50 cal makes no difference to me what a fella uses as long as he is having fun. Use a good bullet, put it where it belongs and that coyote will tip over. Pretty simple math. It's none of my business what a guy uses to whack coyotes and I'm not going to suggest to anyone that if they want to be a real coyote hunter they must use a certain caliber. That is just a tad presumptuous.
Good hunting
[ April 17, 2004, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: Curt2u ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 17, 2004, 09:24 AM:
Excellent post, Curt. Sound reasoning.
I have to admit something. While it may have been a freak thing, I don't know, but a long time ago, I was waiting for my first custom rifle, specifically for predators.
While waiting, I had exactly two choices, a 270 Winchester, or a 6mm Remington. This had to do it all, daylights and night hunting, near and far.
It was a long year; I mean season.
I used several different bullets, powder, etc., but I had more runners with that gun than at any time, before or since. My conclusions were that same as now, and same as your's: bullet selection is of primary concern.
I never forget that lesson. A 6mm or 243 is a death ray, but you must not get sloppy, or it will cost you.
When you think you have the performance that you want for your application, you might have to think again; if you occasionally get beyond your comfort zone.
Applies to 223, as well. Especially 223. For many and varied reasons.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 17, 2004, 12:41 PM:
Curt,You bring up alot of good points.
I think you are right on when you say you are getting good results from your .223 at the ranges you specify.(25-150 yrds)I think that is about the perfect range for the .223,and I would have no problem taking mine for these ranges as I said in my post.
But here in Utah as Leonard and I were also saying,you get lots and I mean lots of road riders that keep the coyotes at quite a distance,so you have two choices,1) try to call them in, which I have had limited success.Some days are better than others.Or 2) you try longer shots 250+ yards.
And I personally don't have the confidence in the smaller 22's(221,222,223,222 mag,223AI)to perform out past 200 yards.On a Regular basis.
When you said your .223 mirrors your 22-250 is it because you are using reduced loads in the 250,reason I ask is because I only get 3450fps out of my .223AI with a 55 grain bullet and it has about 10% more powder capacity than the standard .223.Where my 22-250 will shoot 3650fps with the same 55 grain bullet.Which is quite a difference.
All in all I just like that little bit extra the larger 22's,and 24's gives ya,both in flatter shooting Trajectory,and down range energy.But like you said it's what works best for you and as long as everybody is having fun. GOOD HUNTING C.O
[ April 17, 2004, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Terry Hunter (Member # 58) on April 18, 2004, 11:48 AM:
I have had more run offs with a .223 than any other caliber.I call the coyotes from the thick eastern woods into the pasture.Many times the coyote will stop at the edge of the woods and will require a long shot.The .223 will run out of steam and when the animal crawls into the thick woods they are sometimes hard to find.I want a larger bullet with more speed.The animals need to be anchored.
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 25, 2004, 12:36 PM:
I just stopped by the local gun shop and bought me some new bullets(thanks Rich,and Leonard)
I am going to try those Sierra #1365's in both my .223 AI and my .22-250 Rem.From everything I've read about them there quite the bullet,hope they make a difference.Thanks for sharing.GOOD HUNTING C.O
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on April 25, 2004, 04:57 PM:
I hope you have the same good fortune with them that I have, Chad. Total penetration with large exit on deer and red mist on prairie dogs, all in a .223. Doesn't seem possible does it?
Posted by purdygood (Member # 186) on April 26, 2004, 04:54 PM:
Sierra # 1365's are the only way to go.It took me a while but I finally figured it out! They are devistating on everything from PD's all the way up to 150# mule deer.That is the only bullet I shoot thru my .223.
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