This is topic 17 Rem for Coyotes in forum Firearms forum at The New Huntmastersbbs!.
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Posted by yotecaller (Member # 179) on April 18, 2003, 04:33 PM:
Who here uses a 17 Remington for Coyotes.I think it is the best caliber for 200 yards and under.I also like the 222 Rem.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 18, 2003, 04:56 PM:
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, yotecaller.
Posts with 17 caliber in the topic usually get a big response....I can't wait! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Purple220 (Member # 173) on April 18, 2003, 07:30 PM:
I shot a 17 for a few years, got tired of dogs running off with solid hits. Rebarreled to a 223, been banging them dead ever since. Still like my Swift for ALL ranges.
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on April 18, 2003, 08:58 PM:
For shooting puny little western coyotes, the 17 may work. For eastern coyotes, even the 223 is very lacking in my experience.
I admit, when I shoot something, I want it dead RIGHT NOW, no arguing about it, no pleading it's case to a higher court, etc.
Anything less than bang-flop, I do not like.
Jack
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on April 18, 2003, 10:03 PM:
For the hunting I do, I use a 22-250 or .223 most of the time. Have a new .243 that I use sometimes too. I've used a .220 Swift quite a bit in the past. Sold the one I had but it was great. Need to get another. Really liked it. Basically the same as the 22-250. Both 22-250 and .220 swift have been very reliable coyote caliber's for me. Still working on the .243 load but it will come around.
I use an AR for my .223. Results can vary from 22-250 type performance to unimpressive performance depending on variables. Bullets and barrel length seem to make a big difference. When the range gets a little long, my 16" .223 can be disappointing sometimes.
Now the 24" AR .223 is a different story. It performs like my 22-250. This last winter I used some Sierra 60 gr. HPs and I was very, very impressed. They flattened every coyote I shot with them. Lethality was equal to my 22-250 it seemed. The heavier bullet gave really good penetration and great knockdown. 55 HPs worked excellent too out of the 24". I'm no ballistics expert but it seems the 24" reaches out better and hits very hard. I'm assuming because of better velocity.
My use of a .17 has been very limited. The little I have used one did not make me want to buy one. In close calling situations it may work fine. Where I am, shots vary from 50 to 300yrds. .17s don't cut the mustard in my opinion.
Satisfaction with this caliber seems to vary greatly even with fans of this caliber. This also didn't make me want to run out and buy one. Probably a good groundhog/fox gun though. I can't use a gun I'm not 100% confident in. Some calling situations that includes my 16" .223. I save it for the tighter stuff where shots are a little closer.
This is just my opinion though. Not trying to step on any toes. I know there are places that are conducive to successful hunting with the .17. More power to those that live in those places. It ain't where I live though.
Take care, Curt (again, just my opinion )
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 19, 2003, 08:09 AM:
yotecaller, the above are typical responses, out here. Notice they are all located west of the big muddy.
However, I bet there is somebody out there that will soon defend your choice, and do so with great enthusiasum.
That's been the pattern.
My experience is that a seventeen has value as a pelt gun in the hands of a disciplined hunter, but it certainly isn't foolproof, even within certain parameters. Losing one animal in ten isn't a good average, in my judgement; and this includes declined shot opportunities.
Who knows? Maybe JH, or one of his emissaries will honor us with an opinion?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by JLDakota (Member # 14) on April 19, 2003, 12:27 PM:
First, I will say that about 6 or 8 months or so ago I found the site and immediately went back and read everything that's had been posted. That told me who was who and who thought what. My thanks to the old timers who every once in a while slip or get goaded into dropping a gem of significance that I doubt I would ever become privy to any other way. Keeps me coming back. Also am the proud owner of a Higgins Howler and there's nothing better in my opinion. I owe that to this forum.
I would expect that the majority of the posters here and on other forums are relating experiences with the 17's that took place prior to the availability (this past year) of Kindlers 30 gr. Gold Boattail bullets. There is new info and hard evidence relating to retained energy at extended ranges that should cause many who are concerned about "fur friendly" calibers to take another look at the 17's with that bullet combo.
A friend of mine, some of you may be familiar with, Blaine Eddy, of Clearfield, Utah hunts coyote for fur with 14 and 17 calibers almost exclusively and has been for many years. He and a partner had skinned 192 by Feb 1, with 80 of them being taken with the 30 Gold bullet in his ".100 short .17PPC" leaving the muzzle at just over 4000fps. Blaine recently stated that the new 30 Gold increased his effective kill range to 500 plus yards with 3 kills this year at over 500.
Is Blaine Eddy your normal coyote hunter? Obviously not, he's a specialist who calls and kills lots of coyotes each year, knows what he's doing and hates to sew. He was and is comfortable consistantly killing high numbers of coyotes each year with calibers that the "knowlegable" say are inadequate for the job. The old saying that went something like "the world is full of people doing things that everybody says can't be done" probably applies some how in this case.
Having said that, I don't suppose we even want to get into his use of the 14-221 being adequate for called coyotes inside 150 yds. lol
I'll close this post by saying I also shoot a 17rem as a fur gun for coyotes in MN and have for a while. My hunting territories limit me to shots under 250yds usually and I have not thought nor found myself undergunned. I do though, plan to rebarrel a Vixen in a faster twist to check out the "Gold" bullets so I can formulate my own opinion. BTW, Sly is not pulling your leg about the 20's either. They also get with the program.
I would apologize for the length of this post but after what I have been exposed to on this forum by some of the "more lengthy" posters, this should be considered nothing more the a lengthy sentence. lol Good shootin' Jim
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on April 19, 2003, 03:22 PM:
I use a 17 rem pretty much exclusively anymore.
I feel it is more than adequate to kill a coyote east or west. If I can lay a whitetail down with it, I can't see the supernatural powers of the coyote withstanding it.
I was using H-380 with 25gr Hornady's. I wasn't screaming them all that fast, about 3800fps. I am not quite sure if I just got a hard lot of Hornady's, or if there was a jacket design change, but I began experiencing some nasty EXIT holes in coyotes. I have since switched to Bergers and the problem has gone away.
If I hit them in the boiler room, they are as dead as using my 243.
Posted by yotecaller (Member # 179) on April 20, 2003, 02:52 PM:
I have not lost a Coyote yet with my 17 Rem.The biggest Coyote I got with my 17 so far has been 48 pounds.I try to get the coyotes in to 40 yards of me.I have just as much fun calling them in as I do Harvesting them.
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on April 21, 2003, 06:21 AM:
90% of the coyotes I've killed over the past ten or so years have been killed with the .17 rem. It kills 'em dead and kills 'em fast.
I've taken shots a long ways out there and have not noticed any problems.
Randy
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 21, 2003, 07:49 AM:
I'm a little bit familiar with Blaine. He's a stone cold coyote killer. No two ways about it. I know he did kill 80 called coyotes this past winter with his new wildcat .17 and Kindler's 30's. I think he also killed another few dozen with a .14 caliber. Considering he only hunts about 3 months out of the year, those are some impressive numbers.
Between talking to him, and to Dan Clements, who also has a wildcat that pushes the 30's at over 4000 fps (his is based on a blown out .223), I'm pretty much got my mind made up to build one myself. I'll probably do Dan's version, rather than Blaine's, because I've already got a good action to use with the correct bolt face, and it's designed to be a repeater (normal body taper).
- DAA
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on April 21, 2003, 08:27 AM:
Dave
This might seem like a really dumb question but how do you mantain a normal body taper on a blown out .223 case? Only changing the shoulder?
Dennis
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 21, 2003, 08:44 AM:
Dennis, you got it. I don't have any notes handy, going from memory, so if I don't get it quite exactly right my excuse has already been offered .
I'll look at the reamer print later and see if I'm remembering quite right or not.
- DAA
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 21, 2003, 07:45 PM:
Okay, I was only remembering half right. Dan's wildcat, which he calls the .17 Predator, is .365 at the shoulder and it's a 30 degree shoulder. The shoulder is also blown forward a bit to increase body length/capacity as much as practical while still leaving a long enough neck. That is less body taper than the parent .223, but not as much less as most AI chambers that usually have shoulders about .372. I'm pretty sure he went with the 30 degree shoulder rather than the 40 degree to also accomodate feeding. Although, I think it's mostly the body taper (or lack thereof) that gives feeding problems with AI's, rather than the shoulder angle.
But, anyway, Dan designed it from the git-go to feed from a 700 action, and he says it does, just slick as could be. And pushes the 30 gr. boat-tail bullets at over 4000 fps. Those bullets have a BC of .270. Meaning, this .17 doesn't give up ANYTHING in wind drift or trajectory to even a hot Swift load. Can't compare to the Swift in energy, of course. But field reports so far, from guys I trust, say it's "got enough".
Mind you, I've zero actual experience with using a .17 to kill coyotes. And I'm not "advocating" anything. But, I'm always wanting to mess around with "different" stuff, and one of these big capacity .17's has me intrigued. Might be a little while (so many wants, so little money...), but I'm gonna build me one. If it turns out I'm non-plussed with the performance on coyotes, I think it would still make a hell-on-wheels walk around medium-long range chuck rifle. Wind drift and trajectory of a hot-rock .22, with no recoil - so I could spot my own shots, an important consideration for a walk around chuck rifle .
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 22, 2003, 03:56 PM:
Sounds interesting, Dave.
As you may be aware, I'm not overly impressed with seventeen performance. A few 30 grain bullets have been tried in the past with, what I hear, have been mixed results? I'm generally stubborn about using anything less than maximum, since I gave up fur. At this point, I could compare the 17 Remington to driving 47MPH in the fast lane. What is the point? Kills as well as a 243? Yeah......
But, I could be tempted to build what you describe. You know, strictly for those far shots? BTW, what twist are you considering? And, will it handle 20-25-and 30 grain bullets?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on April 23, 2003, 04:43 AM:
DAA
Thanks for the explanation. I'm wondering if the cost for the reamer and chambering is worth the gain over a 17REM?
I have only seen 3 coyotes shot with a 17. Two went down like a rock and the third also went down like a rock, but then was up and running in a matter of seconds. That one was a straight on frontal shot and the coyote was never found.
Have you ever considered a 17 chambered in a PPC or a BR? That sounds like a fun plinker to me.
Dennis
[ April 23, 2003, 05:07 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 23, 2003, 05:42 AM:
Leonard,
I don't think you'd be much more impressed with one of these wildcats than you already are with .17's. If fur isn't a consideration, I just don't see any reason to mess with one. Unless you are pursuing a minimalist leaning, or just like to experiment with rifles (I've got a little of the former and a lot of the latter spurring me). That said, the newer, higher BC 30 gr. bullets really are a quite different critter than the 30's you might be familiar with. Much higher BC, with all the good that comes with that. And both of the guys I know who are using them to good effect, are launching them at least a couple hundred fps faster than the .17 Rem. would be capable of.
A 9 twist is the "safest" bet for using these bullets. Which would still handle all the lighter pills just fine. Blaine Eddy is using a 10 twist in his rifle though, with great results.
Dennis, I avoid even thinking to myself, whether anything like this is "worth" the cost or not. It is a significant performance gain over the .17 Rem. though. The Predator holds 3.8 gr. more powder. And "yup", I have thought about a PPC or BR case. Wouldn't make for a repeater, but it would make for some good performance! Blaine's creation is a .100 short .17 PPC, by the way.
- DAA
Posted by Terry Hunter (Member # 58) on April 23, 2003, 05:19 PM:
I have owned a 17 for years.It's fun to shoot with almost no recoil.I have killed coyotes at 200 yards with a well placed shot and had run offs at 50 yards.The run offs may be my poor shooting.The small bullet will sometimes explode when shooting across sage fields.
Most of my coyotes are shot with 22-250,6mm,257 AI or a 25-06.
Posted by Thumper (Member # 174) on April 23, 2003, 09:50 PM:
In my opinion the 17 Rem is the ultimate calling cal. This past season was my first with the 17 and it took out 60 or so of the 70 I killed this year. Shotgun accounted for a few and the AR 2 or 3. Past years I used the AR (.223) and I think the 17 is just as effective. There is something about walking up on a coyote in pristine condition (no visible hole, no blood) as opposed to one that has its internals exposed. I can remember 3 runners this year with the 17. They were my fault not the guns. My dog found all the runners. A dog can be a huge help. 90% of my shots are under 100yds and seldom could I see one over 200yds in the country I hunt anyway. I think I had at least as many runners with the .223 if not more then when using the 17. If you're shooting beyond 250yds consistantly then I could see getting something bigger than the 17. I used both the Berger and the Hornady 25 grainers and also found the Hornadys to exit much more frequently.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 24, 2003, 08:43 AM:
Thumper, welcome to the New Huntmasters.
A comment or two. First, if you're happy, that's all that counts. I see the same results, and am unimpressed. This will have to remain a "Ford Chevy" difference of opinion, but comparing 17 performance to a 223 is more of the same marginal performance, in my opinion.
One knowledgable user said, the last time this subject came up, that this is a difficult house to espouse the merits of the seventeen caliber, as coyote medicine.
And it is, and will remain~ difficult, but not impossible.
I very much appreciate the comments, both pro and con , which is another departure from the blackboard; as a "for instance." I respect your choice, but will always be skeptical of the performance; for my application.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 24, 2003, 09:40 AM:
I agree with Leonard,if you understand your limitations with a 17 and are disciplined you should do o.k, but like Leonard I to am unimpressed with them as a coyote caliber at least in the areas I call where shots can vary from 10-300 yards.FWIW GOOD HUNTING CO
[ April 24, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: UTcaller ]
Posted by Blaine E (Member # 183) on April 24, 2003, 05:58 PM:
Howdy Fellers
A good friend of mine JLDakota told me about this Forum! Thanks Jim, Seems like with some folks there is always controversy when it comes to the ,17's. I for one am a Staunch supporter of the .17 and i have the Proof to back it up. Sure they have their limitations but so does every caliber out there. The trick is in finding the balance for YOUR APPLICATION. People can knock the .17's all they want, I just smile and keep killin Coyotes with mine, There are many other points that should be considered before one Condems the Small Cals, #1 Bullet Placement, #2 Velocity and Energy on Impact. #3 Bullet Construction, To Date i have taken nearly 50 dogs with my .14 cal, Specifically a .14-221 Walker using 13-15gr HP's at 4400-4300fps respectively. Of the 50 shot only 1 was lost and he was out about 250. Anyone serious about calling Coyotes for their Fur will try to pull em in to well under 200, to pin point bullet placement and minimize Fur damage! My average distance is 60 yds. And if it were not for the % of coyotes that hang up at 300-350 i would be using my .14-221 instead of my .17 DT. My point is if you are wanting to hunt coyotes for their Fur, then for my money the small cals cant be beat! If you dont care about the Fur then shoot em with any damn thing you want. Because it really doesnt matter if all you want to do is kill something right? Dead is Dead!
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 24, 2003, 07:02 PM:
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Blaine. We were just talkng about you! Glad to have you on board.
You make your point very well.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Blaine E (Member # 183) on April 24, 2003, 07:49 PM:
Thanks Leonard
I appreaciate it very much. - Blaine
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 24, 2003, 08:51 PM:
Hey, good deal, now I don't feel like I'm talking behind Blaine's back, heehee...
Good to see you here Blaine. There are a lot of good callers on this board.
- DAA
Posted by Blaine E (Member # 183) on April 25, 2003, 06:11 AM:
Hello DAA
Hell you can talk behind my back anytime ol bud! I think that storm is going north of the super chuck valley. are you and dave gonna go for it? just think dave hundreds upon hundreds of chucks just waiting for you two fellers, better get up there before somebody else beats you to em. I was doing a concrete job for a guy a couple years ago from ohio who said they quite enjoyed eating them chucks, have you ever tryed one?
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on April 25, 2003, 06:31 AM:
Let's say that a person really didn't want a .17, but in a moment of weakness he bought a TC or Encore. How easy is it to get a custom barrel in one of the non-standard .17 chambers? Any idea on what one would cost?
Dennis
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on April 25, 2003, 06:43 AM:
I seen a mention here of support of Slydogs .20's . I have been talking to him about them and I am considering building one. Does anybody else have any knowledge on the performance of these calibers? As pertains to coyotes, of course.
I do agree, that you need to take what you are comfortable with. I shot the 25-06 for several years. I have never had a runner, I had one stagger for about 50yds, I shot him at 452, and took out a good portion of his neck. I did have to finish that one off with the shotgun. But that is the only one.
I think that discipline on shot placement and working within the limits (on distance that the shooter knows his rifle) plays a good part.
I have ruined alot of hides with the 25-06 though. I am going to try some soft point loads that some of you have suggested. I bought a 222 cz, love the gun. I am still learning it. I did have a runner with it, however it was due to shot placement. She took a step, as I was touching it off, at 263yds. I like the light recoil of the smaller calibers. Any help, to add with Slydog's on the 20's would be appreciated.
later pup
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 25, 2003, 07:14 AM:
Blaine, we're looking to head for super chuck valley next weekend. You wanna go? Dave L. is even willing to sleep in a tent now, . I was trying to talk him into just throwing out a bag or a cot on the ground up there so we could wake up amongst 'em, but he didn't want to try that. Said he talked to you and now he thinks it would be okay as long as we have a good tent. I got a good Springbar I can bring, might even bother to set it up if it starts raining!
- Dave
Posted by Blaine E (Member # 183) on April 26, 2003, 01:50 PM:
Howdy DAA
Ackman called and said you guys canceled out on your chuck hunt this weekend. looks like it was the smart decision with all this snow! You fellers had better take LOTS of ammo when you finally get to go up to that valley. kinda wish me and my son Ian could get in on some of the action as well, HINT HINT! Just kiddin Dave. Last time ian and i was up there man o man were there alot of chucks. too bad their pelts arn't worth anything! And DAA you can talk behind my back anytime you want and thankyou!
Posted by Blaine E (Member # 183) on April 26, 2003, 05:48 PM:
Howdy DAA
Looks like you and Ackman made the right decision not to go chuck huntin this weekend. it snowed like hell on me today at work! Are you guys shootin for next weekend? Last time i was up in that valley my god there was chucks everywhere, just hope nobody gets in there before you do, are you going to Video tape some kills? Hope so! Iv'e about worn my Varmint Safari tape out.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on April 26, 2003, 07:30 PM:
If it wasn't so far, I'd volunteer....
I noticed that someone name of Ackman(?) registered a few days ago, but he's a little shy; no posts, yet. Welcome, anyway, Dave.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on April 26, 2003, 08:52 PM:
Blaine, I'm definitely going to be filming when we head up there next weekend. Ought to get some good footage.
You know, I DID eat a chuck once. When I was a teenager. Seemed real good at the time. But I was pretty dang hungry... Me and Tim went on a long bowhunt and somehow went and left all the groceries sitting at home. Just barely enough money in our pockets to cover gasoline for the trip home. So it was either stay and hunt, without grub, or bag the whole trip and go home. We stayed up there about 10 days. Ate mostly pine chickens, but when we'd been a whole day without a meal, and I arrowed a chuck, he started looking pretty good. And he was!
- DAA
Posted by UTcaller (Member # 8) on April 29, 2003, 07:08 AM:
Since we're talkin .17's.For coyotes,fox and bobcats what BERGER bullet do you guys suggest the MEF or the standard MATCH.A couple of my brothers have .17's and want to try the BERGERS.GOOD HUNTING CO
Posted by catskin (Member # 51) on April 29, 2003, 07:37 AM:
I’ve had real good performance with the Berger 25gr Std Match.
Posted by Blaine E (Member # 183) on April 29, 2003, 06:29 PM:
I agree with Catskin! The MEF dissipates its energy much more rapidly than does the Match 25gr.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 02, 2003, 06:13 AM:
My old friend Monte Dodson used to call and kill a lot of coyotes back in the 1950's. He once told me that those who use those itty bitty bullets on coyotes will learn for theirself that they need something with a little more muscle. Monte loved his .244 Remington "improved" that his wife bought him in later years. He was only interested in killing coyotes, so he settled on the little 70 grain spire point bullet.
Like Monte, I learned that coyotes can sometimes be a tough critter to kill. I wanted a rifle that would put coyotes down with authority, and still not blow big holes in the hide. The .25-06 with Sierra 90 grain "gameking" bullets did that for me "most" of the time. Those who cuss the .25-06 because of the big holes it makes in coyotes, should be looking at their bullet choice rather than cussing the caliber of said bullet. I shot some coyotes in north texas using Nosler's 85 grain ballistic tip bullets, and man did I ever blow some BIG holes! So much for using varmint bullets on coyotes.
A .17 for coyotes? Some people like em, but me? I don't plan to go there.
Posted by Blaine E (Member # 183) on May 02, 2003, 08:26 AM:
Howdy Rich
Your old friend Mr Dodson would most definitely consider me a hard case, guess i got the Small Cal Bug bad! Fact is! I'll put my .17 DT up against ANY cartridge on called coyotes with respect to Killing Ability. No i'm not about to argue which cartridge is more powerful, your 25-06 or my .17DT, However, Dead is Dead. It amazes me how many people are down on the Small Cals when Hundreds of coyotes are Killed each year with them. Hows the old saying go! You can lead a Horse to Water But you cant make him drink!
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 02, 2003, 10:18 AM:
Blaine,
I am glad to hear that you are having such good luck with the little .17 on coyotes. If I am lucky enough to still be alive and kicking five years from now, maybe we can talk about this over a cup of coffee. I have no ill feelings toward you or anyone else who wants to handicap themselves a bit when hunting. Makes for a bigger challenge that way. Good hunting sir.
Posted by Blaine E (Member # 183) on May 02, 2003, 12:27 PM:
Thanks Rich
I think you've got a point there! my Wife is always asking me why i always do things the hard way! I guess people like us just get old and set in our ways. I certainly mean no disrespect toward hunters who dont shoot the Small Cals and that cup of coffee sounds mighty good Rich. By the way have you ever tryed Solids in your 25 cal on Coyotes?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 02, 2003, 03:47 PM:
Well, since this is just between us hardheads, maybe it's time for my confessional?
Don't let it get around, but I favor my 25'06 Ackley for mid to long range coyotes. My bullet of choice is the 100 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip which passes through with half dollar exits; for those old enough to have seen one? In other words, less damage than a Swift, in most cases.
In other words, there are a lot of choices out there....some better than others.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 02, 2003, 04:03 PM:
Blaine,
Nope, I would be afraid to turn a 100 grain .25 cal solid at 3200 fps loose in my neck of the woods. That was a run-on sentence. Houses too close together, solids buzzing over the top of yonder hill and plunking a farmers cow-----
I will buy the coffee when we meet up sir.
Leonard,
I LOVE those 100 grain Nosler ballistic tips! That bullet, unlike their little 85 grainer was made for deer size game. I need to shoot up a bunch of these 100 grain Sierra "pro hunters", a box or two of 75 grain Hornady's and a few others that I wish somebody else had though. My .257 Ackley simply loves those 100 grain Nosler's too. Coyotes hate em, but not for long.
Posted by todd (Member # 193) on May 02, 2003, 06:49 PM:
The .17 is an awesome cartridge when used properly. Shooting is an art. Some people are better at it than others. I have shot eastern coyotes with mine and they dropped on the spot. I shot them in the neck but none were better than 100 yards out. I love the thrill of getting them as close as possible. I do not go for the long shots as it is not my cup of tea. I love a sure kill and hate to miss or wound anything.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 02, 2003, 08:26 PM:
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, Todd. Glad to have you on board.
Why do you suppose that there are quite a number of folks that don't agree with your opinion? Is it because they are basically poor shots on game, and don't understand the art of shooting as well as you do?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on May 03, 2003, 10:07 AM:
Well it's time to pack for California again.
I leave Tuesday, to tangle with the ferocious and elusive killer, the ground squirrel...... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I had mixed emotions on what gun to take to face this antogonistic adversary. There is also a distinct possibility I could cross paths with the imfamous coyote.
Decisions.....decisions..... ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I open the gun safe and viewed my choices.
Should I take the 300WBY to do battle?
I figured that may be a tad extreme for this exercise.
Hmmmmm...maybe the trusty 243????????
Nope.....I learned my lesson about that caliber. I always wanted a big pretty bobcat to do a full mount, except when I hit him with that, he exploded like a ripe watermellon.
I have decided to take the barrel fouling, wind drifting, underpowered 17 Rem, to face this formidable foe.
If by chance I do meet up with Mr. Coyote. I suppose he'll just tip over like the others I met up with.......If I don't miss. ![[Wink]](wink.gif)
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 03, 2003, 11:18 AM:
Yikes!
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on May 03, 2003, 03:31 PM:
As many prime pelts as Blaine puts up, handicapping himself like that, I'd hate to see his fur collection if he ever started giving himself an even break !
- DAA
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on May 04, 2003, 08:14 AM:
Gosh Hodgen, I forgot about those other excellent reasons for not owning a BB gun. Can't imagine owning a gun that is recommended to be cleaned every 15 or 20 shots and shoots paper weight bullets that blow off course in a mild breeze. Thanks for bringing that up. (joke)
On a serious note though, too many guys I respect like this caliber and do a good job of whacking predators with it. Whacking predators is the name of the game. I wish them continued success.
Todd, I too like to get my coyote as close as possible and I am pretty sure everyone here shoots at least as well as you. But when you call enough coyotes you will see that sometimes you are not presented with that option all the time. (close shot)
As anyone here can attest, many factors come into play that will determine what distance you will be able to harvest your critter. I don't know what OH is like but out here the terrain varies from rolling to very irregular with canyons and draws mixed in. Many times a coyote will approach form a direction where it meets an obstacle that it does not want to traverse or go around. Often you are sitting there looking at a coyote on the other side of a gorge that it has no intention of crossing. Rather than walk away, I prefer to shoot him. Of course this isn't the norm but it does happen more often than I like. This is when I'm glad to have my 22-250. Although the .17 is very capable of pulling a nice flat 300+ shot with ease I'm sure, that tiny lightweight projectile has to be running out of poop way out there. I know a .223 is running out of steam. Only one of my reloading manuals even mentions the .17 (that tells me something) so I can't say what energy it retains at that distance. (300-400 yds.) Anyone know?
Then there is the wind factor. We live in wind country here. It is rare to not have some wind each day. I know a bigger deal is made about the wind in regards to the .17 sometimes but my buddies that do own .17s grudgingly admit they are not cracked up for accurate shooting on a windy day. No lightweight projectile is. Logic tells me an even lighter weight projectile would be worse yet.
What does all this mean? It means that some people, including myself, are going to feel handicapped using a caliber with these characteristics in the above mentioned scenarios. I like to have adequate, not marginal tools for the job at hand. Under ideal conditions I'm sure the .17 works great. I use several caliber's and sometimes the one I pick ends up being marginal too. Why get caught with my pants down more often than I have to?
I'm ready to hear the rebut from all the folks that have the only non-fouling, straight as a laser in the wind, tiger dropping .17s now.
Good hunting to all!
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on May 04, 2003, 09:29 AM:
Keeping in mind that I personally only have one .17 centerfire, and I haven't killed any coyotes with it yet, in other words, keep in mind "the source" here... We're getting back to kind of where we started, which is, there are .17's, and then there are ".17's".
From what I hear, factory .17 barrels do foul quite a bit. I'd never even consider a factory .17, for any purpose, myself. The Lilja barrel on my Mach IV just doesn't hardly copper foul at all though. Less than all but one of my larger caliber custom barrels (which is saying something). That's running non coated bullets at 3900 to 4200 fps. After 40 rounds, all it takes is a few wet patches and about ten passes with a brush, and there isn't any copper left in it. So, my experience is that with a good barrel, copper fouling is a complete non-issue, just as with any other caliber.
As far as wind drift and energy, again, there's .17's and then there are .17's and I personally wouldn't have much use for a factory .17. The wildcats we've been talking about here though, are a different animal. Blaine's .17 DT that he has mentioned, has less wind drift, at all distances, than even a hot loaded .220 Swift using 55 B-tips. No mystery to it, he's pushing a bullet with a higher BC, at a higher velocity. That means less wind drift, period, no matter how you slice it. It also means more efficient energy retention downrange, which gets interesting.
Energy wise, it doesn't have as much as a .22-250 or a Swift. Keeping in mind that numbers can be made to do just about anything you want them to... To compare downrange energy you could come up will all kinds of different loads. I'll use a typical .22-250 coyote load to come up with some numbers for comparison. A Sierra 55 (1365) leaving the muzzle at 3600 fps. At 400 yds. it will have about 660 ft/lbs of energy, and drift about 14.5" in a 10mph crosswind. The .17 DT, launching a 30 gr. Kindler at 4100 fps, will have about 515 ft/lbs at 400 yds and drift about 11" in the same 10mph crosswind.
Now, looking at those numbers, I don't think it's too hard to understand what the attraction might be to a serious fur hunter. The .17 DT is flatter and has les drift, at all distances, and doesn't run that far behind in energy either.
Like I said earlier, looking at these numbers, and having an interest in the small stuff anyway, I'm intrigued! It will be awhile, but I am going to build me a large capacity .17 to play with.
- DAA
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 04, 2003, 10:20 AM:
You are right to get back on the conditional beam, Dave. I was thinking that, myself, reading the past few posts, both pro and con.
But, the original post delt, specifically with the factory 17 Remington cartridge.
I understand the improved BC and the increased MV, and subsequent improvement in wind drift. Fouling? Who knows?
So, what we have here is that someone has come up with a better mousetrap, so to speak; considering the new bullet and case design.
I submit that there are things you can do with a Swift, or a 25'06, that will alter the basic equation. Blaine even suggested solids for Rich Cronk's 257AI.
It still gets down to your mission. I wish Q Wagoner would weigh in, since he has a similiar situation as Blaine; works with concrete, takes off for the winter and hunts coyotes with a 220 Swift to supplement his income.
Two ways of doing the same thing. Different philosophy. Can't fault either solution, it seems to work for both of them?
You pays your money and takes yer choice.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 04, 2003, 10:32 AM:
Been reading all this and trying to keep up with it.What kind of money are we talking about here, to buil;d a nice .17 ? Surtely there's a company out there that makes a decent one ? I am interested in having one,so how do I go about doing it,other than buying someone else's ?
thanks
[ May 04, 2003, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Seldom Ever ]
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on May 04, 2003, 10:34 AM:
That certainly is interesting Dave. My comments were directed at the standard rem .17 of course. I'm not much into custom guns or wildcats. For now I just reload as needed and concentrate on hunting. Not much time or money right now for projects. Maybe in the future though.
The .17s you speak of sounds very attractive in contrast to the regular .17 rem. Thanks for educating me on the subject of the other .17s out there. If I ever get the notion to experiment with wildcats and custom guns, that is something to consider.
All the numbers you spoke of sound very appealing to me and would make an excellent coyote gun in my opinion. It's unfortunate that rifle manufacturers don't offer their .17s with the performance you describe. I'd probably have a couple. Even if they had to charge a little more I bet they would sell like hotcakes with that kind of performance. Thanks again for the info.
Curt
Posted by Blaine E (Member # 183) on May 04, 2003, 10:49 AM:
I have been sitting here thinking of what i could add to what DAA has just stated! I am at a loss! Most of my life i have spent defending the ,17's, I have been called a liar on other Forums, Thank you DAA for stating the Facts as they are! - Blaine
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 04, 2003, 11:28 AM:
quote:
Administrator
Member # 2
posted April 18, 2003 04:56 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to the New Huntmasters, yotecaller.
Posts with 17 caliber in the topic usually get a big response....I can't wait!
Good hunting. LB
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're right, Blaine, he did a good job of stating your case. He also observed that we can use stats to prove just about anything, a point well taken.
However, an intelligent argument goes a long ways toward concession, and I think (we) unconvinced, are trying to give ground. You haven't been called any names here, at all; much less, liar.
Anything coupling seventeen caliber and coyotes is bound to generate a lot of "ink", you know that.
I give you credit for thinking through your set of circumstances and coming up with a solution that is not easy, with which, to find fault.
Don't be sensitive. Admittedly, this is a tough house on this subject, but as long as the claims bear some resemblance to reality, those claims will get respect.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 04, 2003, 02:27 PM:
Been reading all this and trying to keep up with it.What kind of money are we talking about here, to build a nice .17 ? Surely there's a company out there that makes a decent one ? I am interested in having one,so how do I go about doing it,other than buying someone else's ?
What do you think of Tromix lead delivery systems ?
thanks
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 04, 2003, 03:04 PM:
I'd ask around, locally. There is bound to be someone competent that knows how to chamber and set headspace on a premium barrel, with your supplied action. Expect to pay upwards of two hundred for the barrel and maybe another one- fifty for gunsmith services. You could pay less and you could pay a lot more. I'm thinking of one in the four hundred range, so it depends on who you ask, and what you are desperate for. It could be a lengthly project, or not. Most projects I have done required almost a year before I was actually using it in the field.
Ask around. Do your homework. Know what you want. Take advice, but don't let them build, for you; "their" idea of your dream rifle.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 04, 2003, 04:30 PM:
ok,thanks,I'm thinking I'll have to special order from tromix,as I hate bolt actions.
I was wondering if anyone knew a reputable 17 rem manufacturer, reasonably priced and actually shoots well ? Been doing a search,so far all I've come up with is tromix,kinda pricey....
[ May 04, 2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: Seldom Ever ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 04, 2003, 04:33 PM:
WHAT!
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 04, 2003, 04:44 PM:
Did I mention I'm also left handed,and thus have a good reason for hating them ? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
[ May 04, 2003, 04:44 PM: Message edited by: Seldom Ever ]
Posted by Blaine E (Member # 183) on May 04, 2003, 05:10 PM:
Sensitive? When ones integrity is called into question! You bet i can get damn sensitive and right now! Debate is a good thing! However when ALL the cards are on the table-and the Facts are laid out it is clear no matter what evidence is provided there are some who simply refuse to accept it for what it is, Simple Truth! At that point it has gone well beyond Debate. To argue just for the sake of arguing is pointless, And nothing can be gained by it! Long Live The Small Cals! Thanks to all who were at least willing to listen to what i have had to say! - Blaine Eddy
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 04, 2003, 05:47 PM:
Blaine E,
Please don't go away angry. I want to see a few posts from you after you shoot another fifty or so coyotes with your .17. Cards ain't all on the table yet sir. Mathematical ballistics don't always result in the real killing power of a given rifle & caliber. Dead coyotes and how far they ran before they realized that they were in fact dead is what really matters. Are we having fun yet?
Posted by catskin (Member # 51) on May 04, 2003, 05:57 PM:
So what your saying here Leonard is that a 17 cal 30 gr bullet at 4100 f/s is ok but a 17 cal 25gr bullet at 4100 f/s or even a 30gr bullet at 3900 f/s is a marginal (at best) round for coyotes?
Whew. It’s nice to see you folks grudgingly giving in here
Curt, aside from the subject of wind drift, I agree with your post. Every choice in calibers is a compromise, you decide where your priorities lay and make you’re choice, later you can change your mind if you like, big deal ah?
Rich, how many have you shot with a .17? I think after a few hundred, Blaine most likely figured it out already. Yes?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 04, 2003, 06:19 PM:
Catskin, it's not my case to make. I've killed a few coyotes with a seventeen and Hornady 25s. Real simple, I'm not overly impressed, for every situation encountered.
I can't recommend the 17 Remington for the average dude, until he has a number of kills under his belt, and has a purpose in not destroying a prime pelt.
For me, I want them deader than dead, to put it bluntly. I haven't seen a seventeen do that, across the board.
As Wiley E, or somebody (?) already observed, he knows of no ADC man, or regular contest hunter that uses a seventeen anything, and I don't either.
It's just not what I want from a coyote gun, but as somebody else observed; "whatever blows your skirt up" it's fine with me.
I think we're being well behaved and polite, but convinced? No, (and, no offense intended) not yet.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 04, 2003, 06:29 PM:
Just when I thought I was weaned off of this damn computer I get sucked back in. LOL
With today’s wide range of bullets and powders along with all of the advanced gun parts available we can create all kinds of hot rods that shoot little tiny groups and do well in the wind. All things being equal, it is the terminal ballistics that really counts.
Personally I want a gun with expansion and penetration. Exit wounds are not the issue. Grazing wounds are. I guarantee you that Blaine has bounced a few rounds off of coyote’s spines before and has opened them up pretty good in the process. The .17 will not put an end to sewing by any means. Exit wounds will be far less frequent and the grazing hits will probably not be as bad as a 22-250 or swift or any of the larger center-fire cartages are for that matter. You will get less sewing with the .17 all the way around when you compare it to most other hot center-fires but that is only one miner aspect of coyote hunting. I skin every coyote I shoot and never worry about fur damage. If I put the bullets where I am suppose to there will be little or no damage. If I mess up and run one across his back or low in the belly I will be sewing. (a lot) That fact just gives me a little added motivation to keep my shots centered. LOL
Like I said fur damage is the least of my worries. When I was looking for the perfect coyote killer I wanted a fast flat shooting round with good down range energy. I also factored in recoil and muzzle blast. Fur damage was truly the last thing on my mind and to this day continues to be. I didn’t have the money at the time to even conceder building a wild-cat so with the available bullets at the time the .220 stood alone and I have never looked back.
A good hit is a good hit and a bad hit is a bad hit no matter what you shoot. If I pop a coyote in the leg it doesn’t matter if I hit him with my 50 BMG or my .220 swift. The coyote will be gone if I don’t shoot him again. I don’t know anything about the terminal ballistics of the 30gr bullet in question but it will not be as devastating as the 55gr BT. I am sure that when you put the 30 grainer behind a coyotes shoulder it will turn the heart and lungs into a messy liquid concoction but I can’t always put them their. I sometimes hit them in the ass running over hills, I shoot them in the flanks when they are broad side at 100 yards, I have probably hit a coyote every where one could possibly be shot at one time or another
Maybe I am just a bad shot but I don’t loose coyotes to fur damage and I loose very, very few wounded ones either. Blaine says that he has shot more than 80 coyotes with that bullet combination and has not lost a single coyote and has shot them out to 647 yards. He also said that he has shot more than 50 coyotes with a 14 caliber wild-cat with only one loss. Shooting over 130 coyotes with only one loss has got to set some kind of record no matter what caliber you are shooting. Those numbers are a testament to his shooting abilities as well as bullet performance. You can’t argue with success.
I however am obviously not up to par with my shooting abilities so I will probably continue to handle things swiftly. LOL No matter how you slice it the .220 with the load I run through it will give you a wider range of error in terms of shot placement than any .17 cal will. I conceder that to be an advantage and for my applications I will take any advantage that I can get.
Blains .17 variation may be the best choice for his applications but is it the best all around coyote round? I will agree with you as soon as someone tells me what the best deer cartage is. Or the best 1000-yard bench gun is. LOL Some guys are using 22-250s with great success in 1000 yard shoots but I can damn sure guarantee you that they are not shooting 40gr hollow points through them either. They would be hard pressed to get one of those bullets on paper much less shoot a group. What does that have to do with anything you ask. Well I guess you could condemn the 22-250 as a pisspore 1000 yard cartridge and you can say that the 17 is a lousy coyote caliber but there will always be a few guys out there that will have success with both. That being said, the majority of coyote hunters do not shoot the .17 calibers in any of its many variations and the majority of 1000-yard competitors don’t shoot 22-250s either. The cream always rises to the top but at the end of the day NO one will ever agree on what the best caliber for anything is.
Good hunting.
Q-Wagoner
Posted by catskin (Member # 51) on May 04, 2003, 06:33 PM:
Leonard - I've been doing these boards since about 1985 or so, and in that time, I don't think I have ever seen anybody with strong convictions change their mind solely by what somebody else wrote/posted. No surprises <g>
[ May 04, 2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: catskin ]
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 04, 2003, 07:30 PM:
catskin,
I am sure that Blaine has had good luck so far with his .17. As I said earlier, if he is still happy with it five years from now then I will buy the coffee. The only thing I ever shot with a .17 was a few sparrows and such. Well there was that rabbit I shot way out there at 5 feet or so too. I also turned my fingers funny colors when I shot it with the lever open that time back in early 40,s.
Q Wagoner,
Glad to see you here again! I loved your above post, and I ain't even gonna make fun of your swift. Good caliber for coyotes.
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on May 04, 2003, 09:35 PM:
I just don't understand why anyone would try to collect fur with a rifle. Traps are much more successful and cause almost no damage.
I hunt with a rifle, if I wanted to collect fur, I would use traps and snares.
Jack
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on May 05, 2003, 06:29 AM:
Speaking of fur, Q what did you average for coyotes this year? I have been reading that coyotes took a big jump. Is that the case out your way as well?
Sorry to change the subject for a second.
Take care, Curt
Posted by Ackman (Member # 182) on May 05, 2003, 09:33 AM:
Looks like some people are .17 fans, some are skeptical, and some flat-out don't believe. I've used a .17 on many thousands of varmints, the largest being porcupine, but never on a coyote. Now, Blaine has most likely killed more coyotes than all the people on this board combined, mostly using.....a .17. He hunts all winter, every winter, and sells the fur. Not just every couple weekends or whenever he can get out, but continuously. It's his thing - it's what he does - it's his winter job. Going out into the middle of inaccessible nowhere for a week at a time. He's been doing this for a looooong time, and doing it with .17's. So when some "ex-purt" says they don't work, he's preaching to the wrong guy. Some poster said to form an opinion "after another 50 or so coyotes", and that "the cards ain't on the table yet", and "good luck so far". That really cracked me up. There're people who know because they've done, then there are people who "know" because they've heard or read. If Blaine talks about coyote hunting, I'd pay attention and learn something.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 05, 2003, 10:20 AM:
Ackman said "Blaine has most likely killed more coyotes than all the people on this board combined, mostly using.....a .17."
Hey Ackman,
Did you ever hear of Q. Wagoner, Danny B. or Leonard? LOL Ackman. I have never said that I have killed thousands of coyotes, and I have never claimed to be the best coyote caller since Murry Burnham. I have killed a few hundred coyotes though. I have shot enough of them to know better than to think that a .17 Remington won't kill a coyote if you get close enough and you hit him just right. Shucks, a .22 pistol will kill coyotes too. I know that it will because I have killed maybe a couple of hundred coyotes that were held in my foothold traps, and killed em with a little old .22 pistol. Does that mean that a .22 pistol is the best thing to use when hunting coyotes? This is just a friendly conversation we are having over here Ackman.
Good hunting to you.
Posted by Hodgen (Member # 180) on May 05, 2003, 04:40 PM:
I don't know....
I like my 17 Rem.......
It is pretty much the only gun I use here anymore in PA. I use it for groundhogs to whitetails. It's the only rifle I use in my travels anymore for coyotes and such.
It's rare I get shots over 150 yds, but if I don't miss or make a piss poor shot, just about everything tips over pretty fast.
Posted by Ackman (Member # 182) on May 05, 2003, 05:46 PM:
"Another 50 coyotes" - "Five more years" - etc. Well Rich, a guy whose only experience with a .17 is shooting a few sparrows - no coyotes - really doesn't know. He's in no position to say one way or the other. So it's funny to hear that someone who doesn't know, tell someone who DOES know, that what's been working well for quite a few "5years", won't work very well. And that it really hasn't been doing what it's been doing as well as it's been doing it. Guys who hunt pelts for money don't want to tear them up, and they really don't like to lose them.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 05, 2003, 06:10 PM:
Everybody has an opinion, and is entitled to that opinion. Our friend Blaine and Rich Cronk each have opinions; I know that I do.
The richest, or the smartest, or the guy with the highest body count is still just a coyote hunter, and he is here among his peers.
We don't have any "coyote gods" or egos on this Board. This is a Board of equals, in my view.
Fact is, using a seventeen on coyotes is still a controversial subject. That will never change.
Opinions are subject to change, from time to time.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 05, 2003, 06:56 PM:
Ackman,
I have much respect for your friend Blaine and he knows that. He likes his .17 and evidently knows how to use it. If you read my post about shooting sparrows and such again, maybe you will realize that I was talking about my BB gun. It was a funny Ackman, I'm sure you have heard a few of those before.
Now we have one member talking about shooting deer with his .17. What scares me is that some young hunter just starting out, may read some of these posts about how a .17 Remington is a death ray on everything up to and including whitetail deer. I know of many deer that were killed with rimfire .22 rifles. These were head shots at close range by farmers who needed the meat, but that does not mean that we should recommend a .22 rimfire or even a .17 Remingtom for deer does it?
Blaine and I have a mutual understanding. I understand his views and he understand mine. I am not here to cause problems. Use what you want when hunting coyotes. I know that I will use what I want to use, because it has been proven best for my own particular circumstances. I wish you well.
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 06, 2003, 12:31 AM:
Ackman, I don’t believe I read anywhere that anyone said that the 17 don’t work for coyotes? There are just a bunch of us thickheaded guys that choose to use a different caliber that’s all. There is no sense in getting ones panties all tied up in knots over something so insignificant. I have killed a few coyotes with the .17 and found that the combination that I was using was not working so I started using something that did. Thirty-grain bullets were not available when I did my experimenting much less a 30gr bullet with a BC of .270! Even if it was I still could not push it to 4000 + fps with the standard Remington variation that I had available to me at the time. Blaine stated once that his average shot was 60 yards. I would bet with that close of an average he would do nearly as well with a .22 Hornet. Over the last several years you could probably count on one hand how many coyotes I have killed at 60 yards or under. My style of hunting gives me about a 150 or so yard average on my coyotes. I am not dismissing anything that Blaine has said nor do I believe anyone else is. I enjoy his posts very much. He is on the front lines in small caliber development and shoots what he likes for his own reasons. Most everyone here has tried the .17 Rem with 25 grain Hornady hollow points and it really leaves a bad taste in your mouth when you plant that bullet square on a coyotes shoulder and then watch him run off. “I know” I have on more than one occasion and I have plinked them in the guts as well and watched them do the same thing. I figured that the best way to solve that little problem was to use a bigger gun. When I plant a bullet on a coyotes shoulder with my swift he is dead before he hits the ground. If I shoot a coyote through the guts he is to sick to move within a matter of a couple of seconds most of the time giving me plenty of time to make a proper shot on him. Blaine understands and appreciates hot center-fires too. That’s why he built a custom .22 x284 for night hunting COYOTES.
Remember that the original post was about the .17 Remington not a custom .17 ppc variation shooting custom bullets. There are not to many people that are going to drop $1800-2000+ on a custom .17 built around one bullet to save a few stitches. I am sorry but that’s the facts. Another fact is that there are very few people like Blain and I that spend 3 and a half months out of the year pelt hunting. Other than reduced recoil the only advantage to using a .17 caliber rifle is to save you some stitch work. Sewing up coyotes is apparently a pet peeve of Blaine’s so he tailored his coyote rig around fur damage. From the sound of it, he has one of the best .17 setups around for coyotes that meet his criteria and given the success that he has had with that combination “he has me interested.” Our demands are a bit different but it may be something to experiment with. Like Leonard just said, “Opinions are subject to change, from time to time.” I agree. We are just debating not ostracizing anyone for their opinions. There are a LOT of people that I know and know of that has tried and failed with the .17 Remington on coyotes (me included) that have not used the various 30-grain bullets. When most of us tried the little .17 the bullet choices were the 25gr hollow point or the .25gr hollow point. Randy B. has great success with the 25s so does John Henry so does V. Carlson so does a lot of other people. Blain even used the .25gr pills until he found something better. I like the swift and I also like the old saying that if its not broke, don’t fix it. Shooting the .17 will not make me a better hunter and it will not put any more fur on my stretchers. It would save me a little sewing but at this point in time I will sacrifice a little time with the needle and thread for the added foot-pounds and advanced bullet construction of the Noslers.
I have no doubt that I could kill a boat load of coyotes with the right .17 set up but that does not make it right for me or my hunting situations. If I thought I could kill more coyotes with any gun other than my swift I would probably try it. The “kill” is the only thing on my mind when I hunt coyotes. The rest is just details.
BTW I think you were a bit out of line when you said “Blaine has most likely killed more coyotes than all the people on this board combined.” Leonard and Danny have both hunted the big California tournaments for 30 or so odd years and were among the very best. In some of the state hunts it would take 40 predators to win. Keep in mind that these are only weekend hunts. I could give you the names of a couple of dozen other people that I know or know of that have shot well over a thousand coyotes BUT I really don’t feel obliged or obligated to school you in the “who’s who” in the coyote-hunting world because the statement was apparently just an attempt to belittle our members.
The .17 as a coyote rifle has been an on going debate for as long as the .17 has been available to the public. This debate is nothing new. The new bullet options have breathed new life into the stale cartridge for sure. Before the 30 grainers were available the bullet selection was the worst of any other factory caliber. It still may be? All that being said, the .17 has had over 30 years now to establish its self as a viable coyote rifle. Comparatively speaking only a small fraction of the coyote hunters today still use this round even with the wider verity of bullets. It has a small but vocal fallowing and with the new bullets it will eventually get a larger one. I may wait a bit and see what happens or I may just build one and decide for myself. Either way in the end it doesn’t matter what I shoot as long as I get the job done. LOL
Curt, I averaged $28 dollars strait through on my fur. I was hoping for $30 but I was still pleased. My average was a good 5$ higher than any one else’s around here except my hunting buddy witch averaged the same. We put up our fur together and sold it together so that probably had a lot to do with it. On a side note my buddy shot 75 or 78 coyotes this year with his .240 Weatherby shooting 95gr Combined Technology bullets and never lost one or got docked for a damaged pelt. We pulled off some pretty fancy sewing jobs but it was worth it. I think I have him talked into shooting his 22-250 AI this year. LOL The .240 is a LITTLE much. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on May 06, 2003, 06:58 AM:
Quote: "Remember that the original post was about the .17 Remington not a custom .17 ppc variation shooting custom bullets.
You took the words right out of my mouth Q. LOL Apples to oranges really. I also totally agree with your entire post. Well said.
Thanks for the info on fur prices. I heard they went up a bit this year. I think I may start putting up fur again next season.
Take care, Curt
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 06, 2003, 02:56 PM:
Curt, e-mail me wagoner@prairieweb.com and I will send you a pic of my coyotes. You should start skinning them again next year for sure. This year was good and it is looking like next year will be even better. You have a good coyote in your area so you should do very well. I know I will get a little more serious about it next fall.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on May 07, 2003, 06:30 AM:
Thanks Q, looking forward to the pics. You have mail.
Posted by pup (Member # 90) on May 07, 2003, 09:56 AM:
I know this post is about the .17, but I heard somebody say something about the .20's. I have been talking to Slydog about these and I am almost convinced, does anybody else have a couple of cents to throw around on the 20's.
later pup
[ May 07, 2003, 09:57 AM: Message edited by: pup ]
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 07, 2003, 11:36 AM:
Slydog?? Slydaaawwwwggg?
Damn,I thought he was dead....I've e-mailed him 2 or 3 times and gotten absolutely no reply,I was gettin' ready to send flowers to show respect...
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on May 07, 2003, 11:51 AM:
Do I have to continually come over here and set you guys straight?
Q, you know in your heart of hearts that the .17 can't be beat in any way, shape form or manner.
Leonard, you are just a stubborn old coot.
OK, here's the plan. Everyone here go out and get yourselves a .17. I don't care if it's a .17 rem or one of the wildcats. Shoot a hundred coyotes with it. After you've killed that many, lets all gather up again and discuss the results. I think you'll find the .17 is top notch, A-1 and the ultimate coyote killer.
Blaine,
You da MAN!
Now, not another word on this topic until everyone here has killed off at least 100 coyotes with their .17.
Later
Randy
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 07, 2003, 12:00 PM:
Randy Buker,
Did I ever tell you about the time that I shot my .17 with the lever open and broke four fingers? How about the time that I shot that rabbit at a range of five feet, and the time--Ah forget it Randy, you are hopeless.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 07, 2003, 12:44 PM:
All kidding aside, I was getting ready to order a 17Rem barrel for my Encore,and a 220swift as well,but the gun dealer talked me out of it.I just wanted to have more versatility [spelled fun with guns]but he said since I already had a 22-250 and a 223 and a 17hmr,the new barrels wouldn't really add that much versatility to the whole rifle spectrum. I hate when that happens What say you'all ?
I'm new to this whole predator hunting thing
[never been calling the first time yet],but really excited about it.
[ May 07, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Seldom Ever ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 07, 2003, 03:38 PM:
As far as the twenties, that's one way to go.
There are lots of alternatives, folks.
If you want to get down to brass tacks, we should consider the one gun battery. What's your choice? A 6MM Remington covers a lot of territory. I've killed quite a few coyotes with several different ones. I also killed a Kudu and a couple warthogs with a 6MM?
In fact, to make it fair, Randy. Let's make it TWO hundred coyotes. 17 Remington and a 25'06, one hundred each.
For all the supposed shortcomings with both, I wonder what the record would show?
Conventional wisdom says that the 17 will have runners, and declined opportunities; while the 25'06 will just blow them all to hell.
Maybe that doesn't tell the whole story, in both cases?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 07, 2003, 03:49 PM:
Leonard[but everybody feel free to pitch in] in your opinion,which is longer reaching and more accurate, a 220 swift or a 22-250 ?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 07, 2003, 04:02 PM:
In my humble opinion, the Swift is superior, I own two, and one 22-250. Accuracy is a wash, brass maint. and attrition is worse with the Swift. Performance gain is enough to see the difference.
But. It depends. Some 220 Swifts are slower than others, and every once in a while, you see an old 22 Varminter that will blow the doors off a Swift.
A loaded question. I much prefer my 22-250 Ackley.
On a serious coyote hunt, I tend to leave the 22-250 Remington behind.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 07, 2003, 04:09 PM:
Well then, that narrows it down some.So,do you like the Ackley or the 220 swift better ?
Posted by Terry Hunter (Member # 58) on May 07, 2003, 04:09 PM:
I call coyotes from the thick woods into the pastures.A wounded coytes is hard to find in the woods.Kill them where they stand.I have had trouble with the 17 caliber in instant kills.The little bullet will not shoot through brush which is sometimes necessary.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 07, 2003, 04:21 PM:
Good point, Terry. When hunting at night, I feel the same way.... Bang/Flop is what I want. Searching for an animal in the dark is for the birds, wastes hunting time, too.
SE, my Ackley is a lot better than either Swift. Make that; better than Any Swift!
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 07, 2003, 05:05 PM:
Seldom Ever, I think you'll find the .220 is top notch, A-1 and the ultimate coyote killer.
“SE, my Ackley is a lot better than either Swift. Make that; better than Any Swift!” ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
LOL
BTW My dad is tuffer than your dad.
Curt, I had a little trouble sending the pics. Let me know if you got them.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 07, 2003, 05:09 PM:
Thanks Q,my dad weighs more than yours,by the way ....
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on May 07, 2003, 05:25 PM:
Didn't get any pics yet Q. I'm gonna sit right here till they come though!
Buker...you hittin' the bottle before noon again?
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 07, 2003, 05:33 PM:
I don't know, Curt? I think he might have been abducted by aliens from the Land of Sky Blue Waters.
I was half way out the door, before I came to my senses. I'm not buying a seventeen until he fax's me the receipt for his 25'06.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Randy Buker (Member # 134) on May 07, 2003, 06:49 PM:
Curt2u,
Come on, let those macho defenses down and just admit the truth. You know we won't think any less of you for it.
Leonard,
Come on, compare the two calibers for dead coyotes? OK, you win. But, for complete fun and not blowing them "to hell" I'll stick with my .17.
The big problem is not that some want to shoot large calibers. The problem is that too many people spew forth the same ol' BS that others have spewed forth before. I'm like you Leonard, I don't care what people want to use for coyotes. Heck, one of my main hunting partners shoots them with his .243 on a regular basis. Mine are prettier without their guts showing but they are just as dead as his.
Wind drift being bad? Hell, if you can call in coyotes you should be able to call them in close enough to not have to worry about the wind. (not that drift is as bad as some think.) Lost energy at long ranges? Again, call 'em in closer. Who here other than Q REGULARLY takes shots longer than 300 yards? If anyone does so regularly (Other than Q ) they need to learn to hone their techniques to call them in closer.
Of course we've been over this time and time again over the years. The conclusion is that you are all wrong and don't know what you are talking about. Sometimes the truth hurts. Deal with it.
All in fun guys.
Randy
PS,
Rich did you learn to keep your fingers away from the lever? HA HA. I've done that too but without breaking anything.
[ May 07, 2003, 06:52 PM: Message edited by: Randy Buker ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 07, 2003, 07:05 PM:
All you would have had to do, was reeeel me in; and then you ruined it by saying, "all in good fun"!
You can believe this or not. I don't routinely shoot coyotes at 300 yards; unless it's the third or fourth in the group.
But. I do know, and have hunted places at certain times, where making 250/300 yard shots will be the difference between killing a dozen in a night and not getting ANY. I am just a damn poor caller.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 07, 2003, 07:39 PM:
"If anyone does so regularly (Other than Q ) they need to learn to hone their techniques to call them in closer."
Randy, what do you mean call them? Are you guys holding out on me? Here boy, here boy, come on just a little closer. LOL Ya right. I suppose you shoot your foxes that way too. LOL
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Pete Hofer (Member # 150) on May 07, 2003, 08:17 PM:
Some things never change. Wonder if Randy is still raising dogs to find cripples? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Looks like I'am getting another round of surgery and chemo. Trying to become the six million dollar man. I'll finish up chemo around the 1st of Dec., maybe get to some calling next winter.
Call em in close____Pete
Posted by Ackman (Member # 182) on May 07, 2003, 08:27 PM:
Regarding Blaine and his .17, I'll say this and then no more to embarass him. Rich and a couple others, you really don't understand. It's not about weekend coyote contests or even being a hardcore hunter - it's way beyond that. It's a lifestyle, a whole different approach to things. Blaine only hunts furbearers during prime coyote/fox season. During that time it's his scource of income. He's very serious about it and focused completely on that and only that - nothing else. And he kills the crap out of them, lots of them. The .17 comes into the equation because it works. He absolutely doesn't want a wounded animal - chasing it means lost time and a lot of trouble. Losing one means lost revenue and a suffering creature. And holes diminish the product. He's used many different guns. Over a whole bunch of years, the .17Rem has proven very successful. The hybrid .17 is a further extension of that success, and the .14/221 is just an amazing little thing. He doesn't say these guns work well just to say it. If they didn't do the job REALLY well, he wouldn't use them and say they did - he'd find something that worked better. But they do, and so he does. It's not a matter of "yeah, this (or that) works great." Forget 5 more years and 50 more dogs. Sewing may not bother some, but to Blaine it's a big deal, a no-good. A scource of pride actually, as is skinning and prep work. His buyer knows the hides aren't torn and top quality, and will take them sight unseen. The .17 is an important key to the success of an entire - perfectionist - process that ends with a top dollar hide. If the animal is lost, there ain't no hide, and if it's torn up it ain't top dollar. So yes, it works.
Rich, I'm not sure what "understanding" you have with Blaine. Yesterday I asked him about it, and he didn't know either.
Anyway, that's how it is. So's not to embarass Blaine any further I'll stop beeping his horn.
Posted by Pete Hofer (Member # 150) on May 07, 2003, 09:34 PM:
Lets see, I kill 100 coyotes for 3months of hunting. At $30 each that's $3000, not very good wages-but lots of fun and hard dirty work skinning and putting up all those pelts.
Think I'll stick to working in my cabinet shop for income and and blow big holes with my Swift and 6mm Rem. in dogs for recreation. Pete
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 07, 2003, 09:47 PM:
Keep stirin' it, Pete!
I happen to know that you own three or four seventeen caliber rifles. Even though you just use them when there's snow on the ground..........
Hey, good to hear from you, we will all put in a good word for you with the man upstairs. Hang in there, friend.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Az-Hunter (Member # 17) on May 07, 2003, 09:50 PM:
I read somewhere that Blaine and his bud have shot in the neighborhood of 1900 coyotes with their .17s. An added comment concerning that figure was the fact that, he could count the loss/runners on one hand. Can this be; come on now, that equates to .25% or 4.7 coyotes for 1900 called and shot??????? I don't know what your average is, but .25%? Im really curious now as to what you guys would throw out as a rough percentage as loss? This isn't about a pissin contest now, just separate the fly **** from the pepper. I scratched my head and would roughly figure maybe 5%, hell, maybe more......we like to forget those runners:), or, maybe Im way high because I have the habit of using those sub-caliber rifles for predator hunting. At any rate, I think Im safe in saying that a quarter of a coyote lost per hundred shot is utter nonsense, and a blatant mis-statement of the facts....wasn't that diplomatic:) Fess up fellas, throw a swag out concerning your loss percentage.
~Az-Hunter~
------------------------------
" Most coyote hunters act the same.....it's that .25% that trouble me:)"
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 07, 2003, 11:20 PM:
Ackman, I am glad to see you have toned it down a bit. LOL You are among friends here. This is not an us against you issue. It is (for the most part) an “our experiences against other peoples experiences kind of issue.” Just like most topics that come up for debate.
Think of it like your favorite fishing lure. That lure is not going to work for everyone under all circumstances is it? Like the .17, some people may swear by it and others will swear at it. All coyote country isn’t created equal you know. In some areas a shotgun is the best tool. In others a 6.5 x 300 may be the ultimate weapon. I have defended the swift before but I don’t get bent out of shape if someone tells me that it just doesn’t work for their situation. I take their word for it because unless I sit in their back pocket for a season I will never know.
Blaine said “I certainly mean no disrespect toward hunters who dont shoot the Small Cals.” Well back at you buddy. Ditto! I certainly mean no disrespect toward hunters who do not shoot swifts. You need to understand that we all choose what we shoot for our own reasons and if we refuse to shoot a particular caliber it is for a reason also. Just because a hand full of people has had some success with the caliber doesn’t mean we should all sell off our 22-250s and swifts to convert does it? You make it sound like we have no idea where you are coming from but that is not the case at all.
Ones hunting style has a lot to do with his choice of rifle as well. I shoot prone 90+% of the time so my rig is set up for it. I Kill a good number of incidentals every year that I bump out while approaching a stand. When that happens you usually only get an ass shot while he is running over the hill. The 55gr BTs as you know have a solid copper boat tale that will get you added penetration. That coupled with approximately twice the foot lbs is very crucial in anchoring those coyotes. Blain said “I'll put my .17 DT up against ANY cartridge on called coyotes with respect to Killing Ability.” He specifically said “CALLED” coyotes. When you shoot a coyote that is moving out and all you have is a little brown puckered eye to shoot at, the added foot-pounds and penetration is a welcome advantage. Night hunters sometimes use a bit larger caliber than necessary for coyotes in an attempt to drop them where they stand on a more consistent bases. At night, a coyote that runs 50 yards can take a long time to find so you want a rifle that will plant them right then and their or will at least spring a good enough leak in them to fallow a good blood trail.
The .220 is a happy medium between the pee wees and the cannons. It does do some pelt damage if you don’t center up your shots but for my area and my style of hunting it is a hard one to top. Also holes in coyotes will not devalue the fur at all if you put it up right. As you now know I shoot a swift and didn’t get docked this year. I have been docked before but it was out of my own laziness not the fact that I was using too much gun. The guys that don’t put their fur up will get docked for damage not the guys that do, or do it right anyway. Just because one fancies himself as a fur hunter doesn’t necessarily mean that he needs to shoot a .17 Remington or another variation to save the pelts.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on May 08, 2003, 05:40 AM:
Five percent?!
I don't lose nearly that many. As best as I can estimate, I've lost less than 1%.
Believe or don't. Not my problem.
- DAA
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 08, 2003, 06:20 AM:
Ackman,
I thought Blain had forgiven me for choosing to use a little more whomp and stomp on coyotes. At any rate, he has stopped posting here and I'm not going to talk badly of him for it. He is obviously a good hunter and a dang good shot. I noticed that you mentioned fox in his lineup of targets. The fox being in there sure does change the picture a lot. I wouldn't want to use my .257 Ackley on fox either.
AZ-Hunter,
I have gained much respect for you after your last post. Your are not only a good shot, but gosh awful honest to boot.
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 08, 2003, 08:56 AM:
I'm sitting here thinking of percentages.
It's all a case of different yardsticks, as near as I can tell?
When I am hunting with my 22-250 Ackley, I honestly can't recall a single lost animal! Yeah, I've flat missed a few, but the only "runner" I remember wasn't more than twenty feet from me. He bit at the hole in his ribcaqe, and ran off, while I just watched with my mouth agape! As so often happens, I found him just out of sight. He was well over a hundred yards out, Arizona brush conditions.
Which brings me to the point. A lot of the shooting down there is close in, on moving targets. I've said before that I favor my 6MM Rem. because it seems to offer a slight margin for the hasty shooting. In other words, leading a moving coyote over hither and yon, you blow a few legs off, etc.
The possibility for runners is a lot more in that varied terrain. I've hunted Utah and Nevada plenty. While there is some disagreement on average range of a kill, the target is generally standing still, and he's not obstructed by large brush. Occasional Piñon pines, and stunted sage, but the target is usually quite visible.
What it adds up to is that there is some allowance for style, some allowance for terrain, some allowance for gear, etc. I wouldn't expect the percentages to match, exactly.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by catskin (Member # 51) on May 08, 2003, 12:32 PM:
Since I don’t keep records any numbers I give you could be colored but, I only remember one runner in the past two years. Year before last I sold 47 coyotes and gave 10 hides away, this past year I only sold 12 and three were tanned and two given to Tom T, so out of 74 I lost one. 1.3%?
I should also state that I have limited long range shooting here. My longest shots are about 250 yards - most are 50 to 100 yards.
Now when I was down in AZ last I saw (didn’t shoot) two 17 MK IV runners, both were tracked and taken the next day. (airedales) One was a bobcat – left rear kneecapped. The other was a coyote, left rear thigh hit, the coyote bled out and died in about 600 to 800 yards, the bobcat was alive and kicking and died with a .22lr to the chest.
Edit: I'm talking the ones I didn't find, not a heart shot coyote that runs dead for 20 - 30 yards.
[ May 08, 2003, 03:10 PM: Message edited by: catskin ]
Posted by Richard Grantham (Member # 107) on May 08, 2003, 01:28 PM:
I agree with one of the posts, I'm not sure if I ever had runners, 222 REm most of the time, standing shots dropped, running shots that I hit too far back, dragging guts ect run a few yards and dropped, I had gut shot a few that snapped at guts or snapped at another coyote if they were a pair- but I honestly don't think I ever had shot a coyote and had it run off wounded more than a few yards.
Richard Grantham
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 08, 2003, 02:06 PM:
“but I honestly don't think I ever had shot a coyote and had it run off wounded more than a few yards.” ??? And how many coyotes have you shot? I am feeling really bad now. My numbers are about a spot on match with AZ-Hunters and maybe I am still exaggerating a bit but wounded coyotes seem to burn a lasting impression in my mind so I think that 5% is par for the coarse. Either that or AZ and I need to learn how to shoot straighter.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 08, 2003, 03:14 PM:
Quinton; nah, looks like you need a new seventeen, that'll put a stop to your problem.
(little joke, everybody; don't get riled)
Besides, if further clarification is needed, in my particular case, I was only talking about one particular gun. I guess I've lost my share; particularly at night?
I've said it before; I have had more runners with a 243 or 6MM, than anything else. That doesn't mean they lack anything, just an aberrant statistic, as far as I'm concerned. Then again, that's not a factual statistic, since it only concerns my casual "recollections". It's more like an "impression".
I just can't come up with a good guess, but 5% seems a little high, to me?
To be quite candid, I don't miss too many, and when I do, I remember it for a long time.....(it nags at me) Then, I guess(?) I blank it out, or something? And, may I add, without any false modesty, I'm a rather good shot.
Good hunting. LB
edit: I think that AZ has been called one of the best shots on game, in the entire country, and I have it on good authority that Quinton is one hell of a rifleman. I bet they are overstating their faults?
[ May 08, 2003, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 08, 2003, 05:50 PM:
It all depends on what you would call a “runner” I guess. If you shoot a coyote and he yelps and you see a bit of fur come off the top of his shoulder does that count? I don’t count those. They are dismissed as “stingers.” The coyotes I do loose are leg hit coyotes from time to time. I don’t think hitting 5 coyotes in the leg out of 100 is an overstatement or understatement. Actually I probably hit 10 in the leg out of 100 but am able to pick up 50% or so of them with a second shot. I really don’t know as it is not a statistic I pay as much attention too as I should. I am pretty liberal with my shooting as well. If I see a coyote and think I have a reasonable chance at him I will take the shot if all else fails. I depend heavily on bullet performance at extended ranges but a leg hit is a leg hit and your chance of hitting a leg is increased with distance. The more I think about it, 5% is about right for me? I hate like hell to see it but it happens. I would go out on a limb and say that a lot of water foul hunters loose better than 50% of the geese that they hit. I have sat in blinds on many occasions and seen feathers come out of geese on every pass and not seen a bird drop. How many of them are fatal I will never know but the river coyotes that I shoot usually have a belly full of them.
A couple of years ago I took out one of (if not) the biggest Outfitter in the US coyote hunting and he said in confidence that they loose a scary amount of animals every year to bow hunters. The problem was so bad that he bought a Rat Terrier to track game but later found out that it was illegal to do so even if it were on a leash.
Five percent is bad but comparatively speaking it is better than in other fields.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 08, 2003, 06:47 PM:
First of all, Quinton: we really missed you! You have a lot of us "groupies" wondering what you were up to, so darn busy that you couldn't check in once in a while, and say "howdy".
But, you make me think of something. I know a guy that is exasperating. He will let a coyote walk, unless he has a guaranteed 100% shot. This is fine, but I could make a good living off of the ones that he decides to lay off of. He will not shoot a moving animal. Whatever. I won't hesitate.
I'm completely comfortable in taking a shot at a coyote, even if it looks questionable. Therefore, I probably would be guilty of overconfidence, and take a shot that isn't centered precisely. I understand what you mean about knocking them down, and drilling them with a second shot. I'd rather do that, than see a coyote get away....I hate that! I want every coyote. It's a mental thing.
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Richard Grantham (Member # 107) on May 08, 2003, 07:10 PM:
Q-Wagoner--- Leonard should I brag just a little about 197 coyotes called and killed in 18 weeks to win second place behind Del Western ? 2nd place in Arizona contest 1961 or would that seem too much ?? I'm now 69 and have killed hundreds HUNDREDS of coyotes in over 40 years.
If I saw fur fly off anything I shot I would call it a wounded and a run off animal.I have finished quite a few deer off that had broken legs, ect, I bet someone saw fur fly and considered it not really a hit.
Dang, now my blood pressure is probably up :>)
Richard Grantham
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 08, 2003, 08:52 PM:
Leonard, I have been pretty darn busy. Just in the last month and a half I have poured nearly 600 yards of cement. I hope the rest of the year is as busy. When I get off of work all I want to do is vege out. It has been raining quit a bit lately so I thought I would drop in.
Your friend must have some discipline to not shoot anything not moving or that is a 100% shot. I can respect that totally but/however I lack such discipline and will shoot at most any coyote I have a reasonable chance at. I am more disciplined on big game especially in Africa, as you have to pay for the wounded ones too. LOL
No, I hate to lose any animal that I shoot whether it is a measly old prairie dog or what. I may be a softy but that’s just how I feel. If I shoot a coyote and he is still up and about I don’t even hesitate for a second. I whack him again for good measure. I have had to many “dead” coyotes take off on me.
Richard, holey smokes!! Forty years hunting and hundreds and hundreds of coyotes and you are not sure that you have ever had one get away? Let me help you out with this one. YES, you have had coyotes get away wounded. Anyone that has shot any amount of coyotes worth mentioning has had it happen. I don’t care if you were hunting kangaroo rats with an elephant gun; you will have some that will get away.
Don’t get your blood pressure up over little old me. Compared to you I still have my milk teeth.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Jack Roberts (Member # 13) on May 08, 2003, 10:06 PM:
There seems to be a problem defining "runners."
"Runners" run after being shot. They may run for 10 feet or a mile, or more.
If you are sure you missed cleanly, that is a miss, anything less may be a runner.
You can misread the wind or range and get clean misses, otherwise, anything less than a bang-flop, is a "runner" to me.
Jack
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 08, 2003, 10:40 PM:
That’s probably the best way to define a runner Jack. “Runner” as a term is new to me. If I deem a shot as a miner flesh wound I just called it a stinger but any thing else that catches meat and isn’t collected is, well I guess a runner. LOL Regardless weather it’s a stinger or a gut shot it is still much worse than a miss.
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Richard Grantham (Member # 107) on May 09, 2003, 05:06 AM:
Q, I've cooled down overnight! Your right of course everyone has animals run off after shots, many times with no indication of hits. I was/am a pretty good shot, useally called coyotes in very close and tried not to move until they stopped so I had standing shots, in Arizona I called mostly in open areas so had gun positioned before they saw me, in Texas its brushy and they tend to pop up real close and you either get close shot or they are gone. Growing up in Arizona I tried to follow my hero ( Jack O'connor) practice, sling and get your butt on ground- wait until animal stopped, and Squeeeeeez.
Good hunting, Richard web page
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 09, 2003, 03:37 PM:
Yeah, Richard is a certified old coot, been playing the coyote game here longer than me, and that's a long time. I bet I've called some of the same spots, though?
Runner. To me, it's any animal that doesn't fall over and die imediately. (other than wounded, and immobile) That includes those that take off right away, and those that get back on their feet and wander off into the brush, and those that wake up after several minutes, and gallop into the sunset. Now, if he's down, but not dead, but he can't run, he isn't a runner. Whether he's fussing or just lying quiet, he's a wounded coyote, that needs dispatching.
I take a dim view of runners of any kind, especially, well hit animals. I always go after them, doesn't matter if the fur is prime or not.
Quinton, I hear you on that African situation. You need to be very sure of your shot, I'm too cheap to pay for an animal that gets away. For me it was all one shot kills, although I had some moments of doubt. They ALL run off! I couldn't believe it. Not jackals, of course, but the game animals are as tough as they say they are!
Posted by Richard Grantham (Member # 107) on May 09, 2003, 04:50 PM:
Old Coot ?? I resemble that remark.
Leonard does ****** , Skull Valley, Wickenburg, east of Tucson, ect sound close, I also shot alot out east of Ely NV while stationed there, got two nice antelopes, and wife drawn for Desert bighorn, I actually had ram in sight, wanted her to confirm and it walked out of sight, probably young guys think thats pretty bad, but everyone I knew used to fill wifes tag in the old days.
Richard
Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on May 10, 2003, 06:27 AM:
I'm talking about lost coyotes. Coyotes hit, but not recovered. And I've run over it in my head as best I possibly can and there is just no way I've lost anywhere CLOSE to five percent. Honestly, I still think it's less than one percent, but just to be safe, it simply can't be more than 1.5 percent. Half the coyotes I've killed in my life were with a .270 Win. Lost exactly ONE coyote with it. Lost one this winter, with a .22-250, first one in four years. Didn't lose many in between.
But I'm with Blaine. Being called a liar doesn't leave much room for civil conversation. So I just got nothing to say anymore.
- DAA
Posted by Richard Grantham (Member # 107) on May 10, 2003, 09:34 AM:
Leonard, my brother was border patrol/ hoof and mouth at ***** that helps alot, but I did have an honest tribal hunting permit.
Richard Grantham
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 10, 2003, 09:39 AM:
I am throwing in the towel too damn it! I don’t appreciate being called a liar either.
Good hunting.
Q,
edit fur spellin mistaks.
[ May 10, 2003, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: Q-Wagoner ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 10, 2003, 09:50 AM:
Dave, you know as much as anybody, about these rooms. For instance, you mention actual "lost" animals, and I assumed the subject raised was an animal that didn't just fall over dead, but moved enough that he had to be found; not lost.
But, if you think your crediblity is in question, you are sorely mistaken. You have the floor, and my respect, which is not given lightly.
A man's personal experience is his own to define. Stats on lost animals are going to vary a great deal depending on his location and hunting style.
If Blaine is checked out because of something in this particular thread, my guess is that he doesn't have the stomach for routine internet dialogue. It's our loss because he has a lot of insight to offer. Unfortunate.
If somebody has a new product or a different perspective, you have to assume that the message will require reinforcement, and cultivate doubt. It's not doubting a man's statements, per se; it's decoding the thought, and methods used, etc.
If a man comes in here and announces, the World to be flat; he should expect a few questions. If he says fourteen caliber is plenty gun to kill coyotes, he should expect a few questions, and exibit patience in his explanation. (not that I presume to offer him advice)
The World is not receptive to revolutionary ideas, a glaring fault, but a fact, nonetheless.
Blaine stated that he has been called a liar before. It's very easy to read between the lines and see that he highly resents his word being called into question. A common reaction. I can relate.
I don't get worked up over petty differences, I find the conversation stimulating rather than irritating. Debate is something of a two edged sword, there is abundant benefit, but you have to avoid the perceived insult.
Personal to Dave and Blaine: Accept my apology for my failure in keeping this conversation cordial. Perhaps my moderating skills aren't up to the task? I'm sorry for offending you both. Perhaps we all learned something?
A sad prologue, as it were?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 10, 2003, 11:00 AM:
All you boys out West sure do get fired up in a hurry . I don't recall seeing anybody called a liar, but maybe I missed it somewhere ?
Damn fellers, it's the internet,typed words are easily misunderstood, because there's no voice tone,no facial expressions,and no hand gestures to go with the written word.
I swear I believe there's something in the danged water or air in the non-southern states,every board I've been too has a bunch of Northern or Western Predator hunters arguing like hell,mad as a hornet over what somebody typed!! It ain't worth it, all that high blood pressure and lost friendships, it ain't worth it.
Now,I am a newcomer to every one of these boards,and Q,DAA,Blaine and Leonard are supposed to be experts at coyote hunting,and predator hunting as well.And expert at everything that goes with it,like what rifle,scope,etc., to use.
Fellers, I came here to learn something,I didn't come here to watch all y'all get your panties in a wad and puff up and leave. I thought you experts were here to help people like me learn a thing or two about one of your favorite pastimes??
Hell, I can't learn anything if y'all all swell up and leave in a friggin' huff!!
Come on back boys,shake hands and come out discussing predator hunting.Shoot boys, opinions are like teeth,most everybody has got 32 or less on one subject alone,according to the mood they're in!
One last thing...a complaint sort of,about this board.It almost at times seems like a private board.You all know each other,and I don't know any of you. Like I said,I'm here to learn, I'm an eager sponge ready to soak up your predator hunting knowledge.Seems like to me,when I post a question, I rarely get an answer,or at best only one or two. Seems y'all are too busy fighting like starving coyotes over a dried up bone to answer a curious strangers questions!You boys are lucky,you've had coyotes out West since there was a West,10 years ago there was no such thing as a coyote out East here! Share the wealth guys,quit throwing stones and start sharing real information!!
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 10, 2003, 12:58 PM:
I guess that I must have blinked a couple of times also. Who called who a liar?
Posted by Richard Grantham (Member # 107) on May 10, 2003, 01:07 PM:
Seldom ever, I'm pretty new to board too actually. My posts are really poking fun, not to be bent out of shape over. Like my comments about honestly, blood pressure, ect, pure hype!!! I will reply to any questions you want to ask, I'm 69 and slowed down some, have a web site making calls, won some contest and killed some coyotes, ect. I don't even consider myself an OLD COOT-- more like an old fart :>)
Richard Grantham
barber@axs4u.net web page
Posted by Q-Wagoner (Member # 33) on May 10, 2003, 01:34 PM:
Seldom Ever, what the hell do you mean we westerners get fired up in a hurry!! Where the hell do you get off judging us???? Do you think that because you live in east you are better than us??? Oh, sorry…. I took my pill and am much better now. LOL
Seriously though, we all debate like hell and argue and wine and this and that but I think that most of us know that it doesn’t mean anything because at the end of the day it is just a bunch of words strung out on a screen. Yes, this is sort of like a privet board but it isn’t. Anyone can participate as long as you fallow a loose set of rules. Don’t take anything personally and try and develop an eye for sarcasm. Ask questions or search the archives. This may be a smaller board but I think we have an exceptionally high percentage of fellas that know what the hell they are talking about when it comes to coyotes and all things related. That is also why most debates get heated. With experience comes bull headedness because at this stage of the game we tend to be a little set in our ways. After the dust settles we are still cyber friends, which makes things nice. If I may barrow Azs’ saying, “We like to separate the flysh!t from the pepper.” I have not personally tried to separate flysh!t from pepper but like any good debate, you can bet it would be a challenge.
If you don’t know how to deal with a little criticism now and then or can’t understand why ones word is not always accepted as gospel then this is the wrong place to be. I don’t expect everyone that reads my posts and agree with everything I say. They haven’t had the same experiences that I have had and sometimes just the opposite. Take the .17 for instance. I have had lousy luck with it on coyotes. Others obviously haven’t. The best thing we can do is swap experiences back and fourth and come to our own conclusions.
What is it about the .17 anyway that gets so much press on predator BBs? There are a lot of guys that have good luck with them and there are a lot of guys that haven’t. Because of the difference in experiences a few conclusions can be drawn, some perhaps falsely.
Let me state bluntly my feelings towards the subject in general. First off I don’t use the .17 because of my bad experiences with it on coyotes. With that in mind why would anyone be upset about me calling the effectiveness of the cartage into question? I suppose the proponents of the round feel the same way. Why would anyone call into question the effectiveness of the round when I have seen it tip over coyotes one after another with out any difficulty?
At this point we are at an impasse because we have two people with two different experiences with the same cartridge. Now what? What is left to say? Well I will say that I don’t know any one personally that still uses this cartridge on coyotes however I do know quite a few that has used it in the past and has dismissed it as an valid coyote round. That fact reinforces my own experiences with the cartridge. When Leonard and Danny which have been around the coyote hunting world almost as long as smokeless power says they don’t personally know anyone who uses them in the tournaments tells me something also.
When ever the effectiveness of the round comes up the sayings “pick your shoots carefully, Avoid the shoulder bone, Know your limitations and your guns limitations and of course Not all shooters are created equally” are found in EVERY debate.” Because I keep hearing those saying “repeatedly,” over and over it brings me to the conclusion that you do in fact need to pick your shots carefully and avoid the shoulder bone and know your limitations and your guns limitations and that .17 shooters fancy themselves as better shots than the rest of us. All that being said and presuming that it is all true, it still looks like a handicap to me. I don’t want to shoot a gun where I need to worry about missing the shoulder. I don’t want to shoot a gun that has me worried about its limitations because I always like to test my own.
Correct me if I am wrong but I think my set up will handle coyotes with more authority than a .17 Remington will. I think that I will anchor more coyotes with gut shots than a .17 will. I think that the added weight along with the design of the Nosler ballistic tips gives me an advantage in terminal ballistics that intern will give me a bit more forgiveness with my not so perfect shots. I think that all of these advantages out weigh a few extra insignificant stitches. That’s my case in a nut shell
My two .17s are finicky as well. They will (or at least use to) shoot well but when they fowled that was it. The groups went completely to hell with in a few shots. I have also found that they were MUCH more tempter sensitive than my .22 calibers resulting in a point of impact change that was measured in inches with a temp change as little as 20 to 25 degrees. A lot of times I will wake up to zero degree temperatures and by mid day it is in the forties. I can’t re-zero in the middle of a hunt all of the time. You see I choose to shoot what I shoot for reason specific to my situation, as do most people. To paint coyote hunting with such a wide brush is being unreasonable.
Now we have a new slant on the subject, a wildcat that is more efficient than the Remington version with a 30 grain bullet that has a higher BC than my beloved 55gr Noslers. Like I have said. I am interested but would someone tell me if it can get through the shoulder of a coyote at most practical ranges consistently?
Good hunting.
Q,
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 10, 2003, 02:04 PM:
Glad you're posting again anyhow,Q. You guys looked like you were pissed off to me, but what the hell do I know,I'm from the East??!!? I hope DAA and Blaine will post again too.
I don't own any 17's except for a 17hmr, and last week I was seriously considereing buying a barrel for my encore in 17Rem and 220 swift. But you guys have convinced me I'd be better off with a 22-250 AI. From what I've read,it's the way for me to go,especially in the brush heavy country I will be hunting in.
But heck,that's what thse forums are all about, bouncing ideas off each other's heads!
Mr. Grantham, one of my favorite things to do is spend time chewing the fat with crusty old farts! Heck,at 51,I ain't all that far behind you! I'm going to go visit your web page now,and I've added your e-mail address to my address book,with your permission ? I figure I will have a whole pile of questions I'll need answers to, as the season progresses.Do you sell homemade calls as well ?
I have not been calling for the first time yet,for several reasons. One is that one of my rifles isn't ready yet. Another is that I am still in the process of developing what I consider the best load for both rifles,using 60 grain Nosler partitions for both the 22-250 and the 223.Yet another reason is because I figure if I hold off calling until the coyote bitches are dried up and the pups are whelped and on there own, I give myself more coyotes to hunt in the fall ? If I kill a wet bitch by hunting now, I kill a whole litter of potential targets for the fall,not to mention pelts .
And lastly,I still have gear on order,tapes and calls,that haven't even gotten here yet.
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 10, 2003, 04:59 PM:
You've just got to love the sub-calibers and the debates they inspire. I have 3 17's, a Rem., a Mach4 and a AI Hornet. I bought the 17 Rem. in 79 and did not know enough about them to reason why the bullets left a white vapor trail to the target with every shot, why every third bullet on paper keyholed, and why 10 shots would foul the bore so badly that I couldn't see the lands. Veral Smith of LBT had me slug the barrel and he sent me a firelapping kit for it. A lot of work, but a picture perfect bore and a new crown made a dandy shooting little rifle out of it. Unfortunately about that time I read an article written bt Ross Seyfried describing a load he had worked up for his 17 using 18 gr. Gensen bullets and Reloder 15 powder that chrono'ed 4700 fps. I bought 500 Gensens along with the other components and worked up a load that also chrono'ed 4700 fps and washed out 3 inches of the throat with only 300 rounds. I shot a few coyotes with that 17 and did not have much confidence in it. I've shot a few with the other 17s with about the same resultant degree of confidence. One aspect of terminal performance of hyper velocity bullets that hasn't been mentioned so far is the effect of
rotational velocity, the rate of spin. Unlike forward velocity, the speed of rotational spin doesn't bleed off quickly. if Blaine launches his 30 gr. bullet at 4100 fps with a one in 9 rate of twist that little bullet will be spinning at 327,180 rpm. If it whacks something way out on the horizon after the velocity has deteriorated to about 3000 fps or so, the rpms will still be close to the muzzle rpm. This contributes to the spectacular hydro-static shock that the subs are capable of inflicting even at extended ranges.Do the math for the rpms of a 14 Walker at 5000fps. I have no experience with bullets over 25 grs. The 30 may be constructed heavily enough to delay the centrifugal explosion until it has penetrated light bone and or heavy tissue.Often the 25s were not, they required what their proponents call "surgical placement". Many of us hunt and call under conditions that require a mace more often than a scalpel. Because of my experience with my 17s I don't have the confidence to rely on them as calling rifles, but I do consider them dandy novelty calibers. They do inspire passion in their advocates and Leonard said as much in his initial post on this thread. I reread the posts looking for the one that called DAA a liar and couldn't find it. I must have missed something somewhere. I know Dave from the boards and personal phone conversations. I would be shocked that anyone would be thickskulled enough to call him a liar.
Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on May 10, 2003, 05:26 PM:
"in 9 rate of twist that little bullet will be spinning at 327,180 rpm".
Hey Rich Higgins,
Tell us about that horizontal drift which a spinning bullet experiences will ya please?
Just picking on ya a bit Rich H. Don't pay any attention to me. I'm just an old fuddy duddy like Jay Nistetter, except I am much more handsome than he is.
[ May 10, 2003, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Rich ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 10, 2003, 05:55 PM:
Hey Rich, "horizontal drift that spinning bullet experiences" resulting from which force? Friction force, pressure force, Coriolis Force, wind drift or gyroscopic precession? If you had Coriolis Force in mind, rotational direction combined with wind direction could result in vertical drift rather than horizontal. Baseball pitchers know about these things. BTW, everybody is more handsome than Jay. You do have prettier ears than he does too.
[ May 11, 2003, 09:17 AM: Message edited by: Rich Higgins ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 10, 2003, 05:58 PM:
Don't worry about it, Rich. Go ahead and pick on him, he deserves it for staying away so long, and working; instead of wasting his time on the computer.
Hey Rich (Higgins) good post. Guess you finally got your webTV working, eh? What's with the monsoons, this year?
Good hunting. LB
edit: not too smart, calling your virtual twin, "ugly". Jay and Rich Higgins look enough alike that their mothers would have a hard time picking the right one.
[ May 10, 2003, 06:02 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Rich Higgins (Member # 3) on May 10, 2003, 06:28 PM:
Leonard, no my web-tv still isn't back so I don't have E-mail yet. I'm using Tyler's computer because he's out hangin with the girls. His computer has photo posting capabilities that web-tv does not. Phoebe had 5 puppies 2 weeks ago and they look exactly like baby coyotes. If we posted pictures I'll bet most people couldn't tell the difference. Just for GP I'm a whole lot cuter than Jay and NICER. I don't tell enbarrassing stories about him. Jay mocks the afflicted.
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on May 10, 2003, 07:40 PM:
All this .17 talk made me actually consider buying one. Really. I figured I'd try "being a man" like Randy said. Then I'd at least be able to have some quality info. from which to speak on the subject. However after looking into it I've decided it is more of a hassle than it's worth.
The selection of rifles available is limited. Didn't see anything I cared for. If it's all it's cracked up to be, you would think there would at least be a minimum selection of factory rifles available.
I usually buy my bullets from Midway, Natchez, or Bi-Mart. Midway was the only one of the 3 that even carry .17 cal bullets. Selection of bullets didn't appear very wide. Some were flat out spendy. After asking myself if I was having a problem with pelt damage with what I was currently using, and answering a resounding "no", I decided it just wasn't worth messing with. Just seemed like more of a hassle then it was worth. I know I could jump through a couple small hoops and address these issues, but why?? Much easier to just stick with easier to get, easier to maintain, standard components that work just as well or better.
Maybe someday if I happen to have extra time, extra money, and nothing to do, this may evolve into an option. But for now I just can't see an advantage to putting the effort into it when the majority of people, including myself, using proven readily available caliber's are happy. Why fix what ain't broke? Heck I barely have time to hunt now let alone taking on another project. Why even risk being disappointed when I'm totally satisfied already?
Let the debate continue. Good clean fun for sure.
No offense intended. As I said before, I wish those that are fans of this cartridge continued success.
Take care, Curt
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 10, 2003, 07:57 PM:
Thanks, Curt. I'd figured Walmart had all that stuff? What's the going price for a 36" seventeen caliber cleaning rod, with jag? Oh yeah, define "spendy"?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on May 11, 2003, 07:17 AM:
Morning Leonard. Yeah Walmart might have that stuff. Closest one is 70 miles though.
Forgot about having to buy more cleaning equipment too. $20 to $27 for a rod and about $4 for a jag. Brings up a good point. For a guy like me who doesn't care for cleaning anyway, a rifle that needs more of it isn't real attractive. LOL
Berger bullets are around $38 to $39 a box of 200. Hornady V-Max are pretty reasonable.
None of this is cost prohibitive of course. But at this point any questionable purchase is "spendy" till I get done with school in another 5 months or so. Just can't see tooling up for what I consider no real advantage or possibly less. I would be much more inclined to go the other direction and take one of several 22-250s I have and make an AI out of it. For my part of the country this would make total sense and I would benefit from the project.
The fur damage angle with the .17 doesn't fly with me. With good bullets it just hasn't been an issue with the caliber's I use. I usually have to shake the coyote to get it to bleed. Sure there is the occasional damaged one but it is rare enough that it is a non-issue. My damaged coyotes are normally fringe hit related. (spine) Any caliber would have caused damage.
Although I am definitely capable of calling a coyote as close as anyone else, I would rather err on the side of better performance rather than having to rely on calling every single coyote into perfect .17 range each time as recommended earlier. In a perfect world it would be great I guess. Shouldn't have to do that and I like to have my options open.
Not saying I won't try one out someday. At this point it just isn't logical to do though.
Again more power to the fans of .17 and I wish nothing but good hunting to them.
edit: Want to clarify that I am speaking of the factory .17 rem here. Those custom jobs still sound pretty fun to me.
Take care, Curt
[ May 11, 2003, 07:24 AM: Message edited by: Curt2u ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 11, 2003, 08:58 AM:
quote:
edit: Want to clarify that I am speaking of the factory .17 rem here. Those custom jobs still sound pretty fun to me.
I think my comment was more tongue in cheek, I have never seen one piece steel cleaning rods in a Walmart, let alone 17 caliber.
I have never seen components, such as powder, primers, and bullets. All of that essential gear is specialty supplied, and relatively spendy. (corrections welcome)
I was in my local Walmart just this past week. They even removed all the rifles from the display cases, they have "pictures" of the knives they sell in the counters. What's the message here?
Good hunting. LB
Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on May 11, 2003, 10:19 AM:
Has anyone,using the 30's, done a "post" on one of the coyotes that's been shot? What happens to the bullet after impact. It sounds like there is not alot of worry about contact splatter, so I'm just wondering how deep the penetration is before the bullet starts to yaw or completely fragment? Do the bases remain intact?
Dennis
[ May 11, 2003, 10:21 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]
Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on May 11, 2003, 11:42 AM:
I don't have the time to go back and find it, but I have a recollection that there was a statement made about exits, on a few animals; don't remember how it was put; exactly? What I wonder about is staying inside the animal, at all ranges, considering the velocity drop at 500 yards, etc. It takes unique construction not to exit at random distances, or conversly, surface splashes at close range, which is what I would call 60 yards, if that is the average?
When I was hide hunting and skinning those animals killed with a seventeen Javalina, the tissue under the skin would be extensively dark red and splotchy, on the majority of shots that didn't exit. If it were a game animal, there would be a lot of ruined bloodshot meat, for those that haven't seen it.
As far as finding any part of an intact bullet, good luck. Speaking of relatively short range shooting, mostly inside of 150 yards.
But, that's a good question, Dennis. Reliable terminal effect is a good thing.
Good hunting. LB
edit: additional comments on the blackboard under ".14 cal question"
[ May 11, 2003, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]
Posted by Curt2u (Member # 74) on May 12, 2003, 06:49 AM:
Sorry Leonard, didn't have my coffee in me on my last post. Didn't catch the tongue in cheek the first time. Whizzed over my little early morning pea brain. I can see it now though. LOL
Posted by albert (Member # 98) on May 14, 2003, 07:09 PM:
Greenside
The 30 gr. bergers are more fragile than the 25 the have the same jacket but it is "streched" on the 30 gr. making it thiner. I understand the kindler bullets are tougher. The 25 gr. Horn are the toughest and they will go through a coyote or at least pieces of jacket will.
I agree with Curt that the fur factor is over stated. I truly believe that it is a disaster on fox while I have only shot 5 fox with mine everyone was completely opened up. Maybe it would work if your down loaded it but then what is the point. Then it could be that I'm a poor shot and I just fringed every one.
The condition or your bore will affect how certain bullets will perform alot of factory rem came with some pretty rough bores and requied a tougher bullet until they had enough rounds through them to smooth out.
I have shot about 40 coyotes with my seventeen enough that I no longer use it to hunt coyotes but I do admit to feeling the urge to drag it out of the closet and give it another try.
Posted by Seldom Ever (Member # 185) on May 15, 2003, 09:41 AM:
Been talking with Blaine Eddy via e-mail some,asking him more questions about the 17Rem.I was convinced at one time I wanted one, now I am again.Think I'll be getting a 17Rem barrel and a 22-250 AI barrel from Virgin Valley for my Encore sometime in July.
It shows it doesn't pay to frequent these boards,I'm so gun and call poor now it ain't funny,and I haven't even been yet !!
Hell,a man just can't have too many guns.
Posted by jerry (Member # 195) on May 16, 2003, 02:34 PM:
I bit this year and bought a bdl -700 and its showing real promise with accuracy . all the ( crap) you have to buy is a pain , Funnel , rod, dies, jags , brushes well you guys know . I just hope its as much fun as i think its gonna be . most of my coytes are shot at 50 or less , so im sure its going to be enough gun . But if it aint ill be the first to let all of you know . I HATE runnaways , wastes way to much time looking for wounded fur when i could be sitting on a new stand.Then again some of you have said dont use anything less then a 22-250 . and i have been killin coyotes with a 223 for years, so just maybe this lil rifle is going to be a keeper ? time will tell . Curt if it works , ill loan it to ya for a while . i do like the lack of recoil , and being able to see the hits at the range . seeing a hit on a coyote will be fun . Later , Jerry .
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