The New Huntmastersbbs!: Amplifier Modifications For Coyote Howling With Open Reed Calls

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Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on October 11, 2010, 10:24 AM:

Many predator callers are looking for ways to locate coyotes by howling with open reed calls or tone boards. I have come up with a way to amplify these howling sounds with a minimal cost. The amplifiers can be made from empty plastic pop bottles. You will need to cut off the bottom end of these bottles, remove the labels, and after your testing you can paint the bottle with a flat black spray paint to cut down on glare.

The 20 ounce bottles shown above work great, but you may also want to try the two liter bottles for more volume.

You can experiment with the length of these bottles or funnel amplifiers.

Open reed tone boards or calls with a 7/8 inch OD (outside diameter) will fit right into the end of these bottles with the cap removed. I have also bored out some Schedule 40 PVC pipe with a 11/16 inch drill bit and cut these down to a 5/8 inch length. This allows me to fit my 5/8 inch OD tone boards into these cut/drilled down sections of PVC pipe for use with these same bottles. I prefer and have used the 7/8 inch tone boards for the past 30 years with my calling, but I have also made the 5/8 inch tone boards and some callers feel these are easier to blow.

The completed amplifier on the right hand side was made from a 20 ounce Dr. Pepper bottle with its straight neck taper, but Coke and Pepsi bottles work as well.

Bottles with constricted or recessed areas to the neck of the bottle should not be used, they cause a back pressure and distort the sound of your howls.

You can also purchase small plastic funnels for $1 to $4 at your local auto or farm supply store, WalMart or K-Mart stores and these funnels can be cut and modified for your amplifiers. The large ends can be cut down to a smaller diameter to fit your desires and the small tapered end can be cut down for a snug fit of your tone boards. The funnels can be painted with more desirable flat black color.

Large funnel modified as an amplifier.

Small funnel modified as an amplifier.

Yes I have used trombone and trumpet bells as well as buffalo and cow horns for my howling. With these modified bottles and funnels you can save yourself a few dollars and have the pride of of using an amplifier that you improvised for your own use.

If you would be interested in purchasing my 7/8 and 5/8 inch Dakota Coyote Howler tone boards, I will sell you one of either size tone board shipped TYD for $6 or two for $10. Payments can be made by cash, check, money order, or PayPal. If you are interested, please reply to this thread or send me an email. You can also use these tone boards without the amplifiers for the rabbit distress and coyote kiyi’s with your predator calling.

Dakota Coyote Howler tone boards. The top gray tone board has a 5/8" OD and the lower white tone board has a 7/8" OD.

You can listen to a howl made with these tone boards by clicking on the following lone howl link.

Posted by Paul Melching (Member # 885) on October 11, 2010, 10:36 AM:

Now youve gone and done it! ok which do coyotes prefer Coke or Pepsi?
sorry I couldnt stop myself.
Great idea by the way.
I have an old primos howler the I aquired a long time ago. When I fist saw it I thought hey I could do this with a funnel. And yes its very loud.But it has a crappy tone board.

Posted by Cayotaytalker (Member # 1954) on October 11, 2010, 11:48 AM:

I thought this post was ajoke! The top photo of the 20oz does not look that bad.I might not like it to hang off my neck.But on the dashboard or in the front seat of the truck might be ok.Well if no one did ever think out side the box I guess we would still be in a cave.I have done some crazy stuff to make reeds from beer cans to most any kind of plastic.Mylar makes the best reeds but most plastic will work in a pinch.

Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on October 11, 2010, 03:05 PM:

My SD coyotes prefer Pepsi of course??????? I modified the hot dog tone board and it howls much better now.

A smaller pop bottle cut in half should work much better on your lanyard. Save the 2 liter bottle for use from your truck. I also have a three sided small cough syrup bottle that was made from harder or thicker plastic, this would work much better on a lanyard.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 11, 2010, 03:17 PM:

The one I molded out of a gallon milk jug, a handfull of concrete and Skippy peanut butter has lasted me a long time.

(just kidding)

Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on October 11, 2010, 04:34 PM:

Leonard:

These amplifiers are much easier to fix and the open reed calls that I sent you will fit right into the bottles. The funnels have to be fitted to the calls.

Have you done any calling to try these calls yet?

[ October 11, 2010, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: SD Howler ]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 11, 2010, 06:56 PM:

Not yet Steve.

For us unfortunate urban citizens, we have to plan a safari in advance and then: BONSAI! "outta my way, pilgrims!"

I'm doing a huge financial transaction, at the moment, so my focus is on it; but I have much to do before I leave town.

Check back toward the end of the month and I will have something to tell you.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on October 12, 2010, 11:50 AM:

I just found another bottle that works great as an amplifier for howling. You can use a hydrogen peroxide bottle in the 32 or 16 ounce sizes. Since the bottles are brown, painting is not required and these bottles are made with a thicker plastic which stands up better that the pop bottles. The 7/8 inch tone boards fits snuggly in the top screw end of the bottles.

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 13, 2010, 10:00 PM:

Oh great... more "science of sound" to wade through. [Roll Eyes]

I can't believe TA isn't all up in this! [Razz]

Steve,

Can you explain exactly how you are defining the word "amplifier" as it applies to this situation?

Krusty

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 13, 2010, 10:19 PM:

I think he would say the obvious, that it directs and funnels the sound in exactly the same way as a cheerleaders megaphone.

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on October 14, 2010, 12:07 AM:

Did I hear "Cheerleader"?...

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 14, 2010, 12:34 AM:

First off, I've been studying fluid dynamics all night, for mid-terms next week, and I have a head way way too full of science right now.

Leonard,

Fair enough, but just like to say "I think he'd be mistaken in saying so."

I had written a lengthy post, but I'm going to spare you, or save it for later (when and if anyone is interested in another discussion of the nature of sound).

Highlights included Bernoulli's Principle, the Law of Conservation of Energy, and Noether's Theorum. [Wink]

Krusty

Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on October 14, 2010, 04:58 AM:

Krusty:

The intent of this post was to show callers other ways of increasing the volume of sound made with a tone board. They can save the expense of buying a buffalo horn, cow horn, or a hand turned wood barrel by using various plastic bottles or funnels with their tone boards.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 14, 2010, 05:35 AM:

Gery Blair explained the pop bottle megaphone idea to me back in the mid 1980,s.

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 14, 2010, 07:53 AM:

I don't have a whole lot of time, I have to leave for school.

I'll just say this, while it may seem, intuitively, that volume is increased (amplified), in this way... it isn't.
Unless new energy can be added to the original sound waves, which are nothing more and nothing less than a product of motion of the reed converted into motion of air, volume cannot be increased.

This is, exactly, related to Tim's (disproven) theories.
Once sound waves reach the end of the pop bottle, or a WT speaker, they spread out in all directions.

At best what you are doing with this method is temporarily, and immensely temporary at that, concentrating the energy of sound.
With sound travelling at somewhere around 700 MILES per hour, it takes just a nanosecond for sound waves to clear these types of bell tubes, and another nanosecond later these sound waves begin to disperse in all directions(and begin to weaken).

Many things in science defy intuition... the world isn't flat, neither the Sun nor the Earth lie at the center of the Universe, the Moon isn't made of Minnesota green cheese, and sound cannot be amplified without the addition of energy.

Krusty

*Edit for grammar and punctuation.

[ October 14, 2010, 07:55 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on October 14, 2010, 08:59 AM:

Googled from the web

quote:
Have you ever wondered why simple megaphones amplify your voice so well?

Actually, they work for two different reasons. First, they direct your voice. As sound emerges from your mouth, it travels outward in all directions, going left, right, up, and down, as well as straight ahead. Using a megaphone is a lot like using a funnel–it directs more sound toward your target, and allows less to scatter to the sides.

This is only half the story, though. Megaphones don’t simply aim the sound that you’re already making, they can actually draw more volume from your mouth in the first place. This is because whenever a sound wave moves suddenly from a narrow space to a more open one, some of the sound is reflected backward. This is exactly what happens when the sound of your voice moves from the narrow confines of your mouth into the wide, open air. The abrupt change bounces some of the sound energy backward, where it’s absorbed by your mouth, reducing the overall volume.

A cone-shaped megaphone creates a more gradual transition from your mouth to the open air. By reducing the amount of sound that bounces back into your mouth, this allows more volume to come out. For full effect, a megaphone should be at least as long as the wavelength of the sound it’s amplifying. Human voices have wavelengths up to several feet long, so a professional megaphone, like a cheerleader might use, is also several feet long.

I use the bell that Boddiker used to make and sell. Carlton calls was using them for a while on some of their elk bugles. Bought a couple from critr' call( not cheap) and also a couple Carlton bugles from Bruce Kennedy(Shade Tree) when he had his online store. The bugles where cheaper than what critr'call wanted just for the bell.

They are a thicker than the pop bottles and I think they resonate the sound better than the thinner pop bottles. Another thing a like about them is that I can drop a BB-MB1 from the front and snug it up and use it with the bell.

BTW: Those bells also make a very good hearing aid, at times can work better than cupping your hand behind the ear. Comes in handy once in a while when trying to hear those pups in 10ft tall standing corn. I"m in the midwest and sometime when using them I can even hear the ocean.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 14, 2010, 11:38 AM:

Dennis, Bernoulli's Principal makes your argument look weak. [Wink]

However, even when I was in short pants, I used to take a cardboard tube from a roll of wax paper and "amplify" the shit out of my voice, while annoying everybody in the house. How could I have been so stupid!

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 14, 2010, 11:53 AM:

"and sometime when using them I can even hear the ocean."
--------------------------------
EXACTLY! And some of you have seen those bikini's that are made from sea shells? Well when you see a girl wearing one of those, if you pick her up and hold her next to your ear, you can actually hear her scream.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 14, 2010, 11:59 AM:

I don't know why those megaphones work, but they not only magnify the sound, they actually change the tone of the sound. The length, thickness, and density of said megaphone makes a huge difference. That which is written in books is often quite different from what a man can learn from actual practice in the real world.

Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on October 14, 2010, 01:18 PM:

Sorry, but I didn't post this thread to start any arguments with anyone. I just wanted to inform other callers what I have used with my tone boards when howling for coyotes.

Thanks for the information on the megaphones.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 14, 2010, 01:53 PM:

Don't worry about it, Steve. These things pop up now and then and lead to stimulating conversation. Not your fault.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 14, 2010, 02:19 PM:

Steve,

Absolutely. No need for an apology on your part.

While I may not agree with the terminology, I do not in any way dispute the usefulness of the application of bell tubes for howlers or distress calls.

The calls I make, myself, have graduated bell tubes, in an effort to maintain and focus as much of the sound (energy) created by the reed as possible.

Krusty

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 14, 2010, 02:23 PM:

P.S. Leonard,

You and your cardboard tune were annoying, because you were annoying, not because you could defy the laws of physics. [Razz]

Dennis' information is not 100% correct, nothing can add energy to sound waves already in motion. They are only perishable.

Krusty

Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on October 14, 2010, 02:26 PM:

THANKS Krusty, I was using a system that I feel improved my success with howling and I just wanted to pass it on to other callers.

[ October 14, 2010, 02:50 PM: Message edited by: SD Howler ]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 14, 2010, 02:33 PM:

"Dennis' information is not 100% correct, nothing can add energy to sound waves already in motion. They are only perishable."

And if Krusty's information was 100 percent correct, the barrel on the end of a call is there only for looks. College teacher's ain't always right either.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 14, 2010, 03:40 PM:

What do you mean, Rich? Wasn't our brilliant Narcissist In Chief, University educated? That's what they tell me, anyway? We subjects have to take many things about this asshole on faith. It's almost impossible to verify a damned thing about dickweed! Like, where the hell is his friggin' birth certificate?

But, I agree with you, and my college experience was before the Progressives took over brainwashing our children. It's pretty hard to change 2+2=4, but damned near everything you ever thought you knew politically and socially is dated and therefore, incorrect.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 14, 2010, 04:43 PM:

Rich,

I knew most of what I know, about sound, and about fluid dynamics in general, long before I ever got to college.
None of the ideas or subjects I have discussed here in the last day or so has come from any of my textbooks or my teachers (I'm currently studying fluid dynamics as it relates to stream power and flow rates, for mid-terms).
And I can Google, just like Dennis can!

I was fairly smart before I got to college, and I'll be way smarter when I leave.

I already established that I believe Steve's idea has merit, in the real world, born in the field where his experience finds its roots... enough merit that I incorporate it into my own work.
I never said the horn, bell tube, or anything else, was just for looks.

Funny, I was a genius when I used my smarts to help you prove Sly was an idiot, and now I'm not credible? LOL [Eek!]

Don't be such a crotchety old fart, all the time, eh. [Roll Eyes]

Krusty

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on October 14, 2010, 05:17 PM:

Krusty, how does resonation at the right pitch corrolate to amplitude? does it increase or decrease? Should a good hand call ring and resonate? All I know about fluid dynamics is where the sand bars formed after the flood of 2008.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 14, 2010, 06:31 PM:

quote:
This is, exactly, related to Tim's (disproven) theories.
Once sound waves reach the end of the pop bottle, or a WT speaker, they spread out in all directions.

Yes the sound does spread in all directions but will be the loudest and carry the farthest out in front...( the direction the call or speaker is faceing)

When I was out to Steve's a month ago we played around with Steves sound meter and tested varis calls. Steve has a few that when used with a pop bottle are just as loud as a F-P or WT and you can't say that about alot of calls that are out there..
On short barrel calls the sound is'nt as loud or disperses as well as a call with a longer tube.. Horn howlers sound good but are not as loud as some seem to think... Also by useing to long of a tube or the wrong thickness can put a call on the not so loud list..

[ October 14, 2010, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on October 14, 2010, 06:45 PM:

What % of the coyotes you call, come in from the direction you have the speaker pointed?

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 14, 2010, 07:04 PM:

99%....

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 14, 2010, 07:10 PM:

Funny, I was a genius when I used my smarts to help you prove Sly was an idiot, and now I'm not credible? LOL [Eek!]

Don't be such a crotchety old fart, all the time, eh.
-----------------------------------------
You were never a genius Krusty, and still ain't. If you don't want to look like you ain't credible, you maybe should be careful to not say things that ain't so. I am really trying not to be crotchety, but I sometimes can't help myself. [Big Grin]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 14, 2010, 07:12 PM:

OH MAN!!!! 48 more posts and I will be a Genuine PAKMAN! Or is it only 47 more?

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 14, 2010, 08:14 PM:

What a milestone! 2000 also gives you status as a expert keyboard ranger, take you pick.

If you want to see something awesome, check out my totals. I really need to get a life, huh?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on October 14, 2010, 08:38 PM:

I wish I wasn't so damned sick with my slingshot ammo collection recovery period. If I was anywhere near me normal possum self, which may never happen come to think of it, I would have commented to Steve that I first learned of this technique watching Larry O. (Gates or Yates) while he was hunting with Gerry Blair in one of their first VHS tapes (I beliee it was called "Beast Masters secrets to predator calling" or maybe "Predator Hunting" with Gerry Blair. In any event, Larry O.'s favorite howler was a particular red funnel that he blew either an open reed distress call into thereby amplifying the sound and giving it great sound and increased range. Furthermore, in one of those two VHS tapes, Gordy Krause was hunting with our own Wiley E., aka Scott Huber, and old Scott had a howler that was snow camoed, and it appeared to be a open reed distress call blown into a funnel, or it may have been a howler just made that way similar to the old Johnny Stewart howlers.
I got all fired up after watching Larry O. and Scott talk coyote and I tried several funnels to try to copy them as good as I could. Never could find a funnel that totally excited my possum lips and ears, but accidentally broke a Primos Mini Mag Howler back where the mouthpiece/tone board fit into the bell end, so I just taped the split part where it was cracked, and started carrying in my fanny pack alongwith my other hand calls. To this day, if I feel like I need extreme volume, with any of my distress calls like the Cronk KIller Call or the Zepp's Rattler, I use my Primos funnel end to blow through and it makes some seriously loud jackrabbit distress sounds. coyote howls made with an open reed distress call, and low and behold I have killed a lot of coyotes using that technique, maybe more.
Sorry this wasn't better written, but I am one sick possum. Maybe I can edit lately and make ti read better.

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 14, 2010, 09:05 PM:

Dennis,

Admittedly I don't know a whole lot about resonance, technically speaking, but the method of manufacture I use for making calls has given me a bit of a working understanding.

I can't say whether or not a call should resonate, but I know that callers like it when the ones I make do resonate when used. "An alive feeling" is often used to describe the way the resonance feels to them.

I believe it was TomTalker that first introduced me to the idea of bodies thin enough to create this feeling, citing acoustic guitar bodies and softwoods like cedar to increase amplitude.

Does this correlate to better results in the field? I don't know for sure, but some people believe happy callers have greater success rates (see the old discussions on "mojo"). [Wink]

Two calls made on a lathe, that I once owned, instantly stand out in my mind as having this resonance.

One an ultra thin R.A.W Calls protoype open reed;

The other a call made for me by Steve Barbour;

Both of these had a "richness" to the sound they made, that I absolutely attribute to that resonant vibrations created by the thin bodies.

TA "Yes the sound does spread in all directions but will be the loudest and carry the farthest out in front..."

Yeah, but only a very small amount louder, single digit dbA in most cases, and if your egg drawing had any validity, not much greater distance, about 10%.

TA "When I was out to Steve's a month ago we played around with Steves sound meter and tested varis calls."

Did you use the damn thing correctly this time? [Roll Eyes]

TA "Steve has a few that when used with a pop bottle are just as loud as a F-P or WT and you can't say that about alot of calls that are out there."

PVC pipe toneboards are very loud, as a group/type, but did you bother judging these against the very same calls outside the pop bottles?

TA "On short barrel calls the sound is'nt as loud or disperses as well as a call with a longer tube."

Wait just a sec... if the call body is short this should increase widespread dispersal of sound.
I don't think anyone here is going to conceed that a CritRCall has a narrowly focused broadcast, Steve himself is advocating add-on bell tubes for narrowing broadcast focus.

TA "Also by useing to long of a tube or the wrong thickness can put a call on the not so loud list."

Now we're back to Dennis' line of questioning. Calls with too thick of a body, or too long (or too cylindrical) of a bell tube can "deaden" the output.
And back to his comment about the thicker (more solid) conical bell tubes performing better.

KJ "What % of the coyotes you call, come in from the direction you have the speaker pointed?"

TA "99%"

LOL With Tim swinging his speaker around 360°, this means 1 out of 100 coyotes Tim calls in are either digging up out of the ground, or dropping in out of the sky! [Razz]

Rich,

Show me one single thing I've said, that ain't so, but be prepared to show proof... like I am. [Wink]

We'll play by Scott's rules of engagement, aight.

Al,

You saw a video where a howler had increased range??? How did you know this, were you sitting a long ways from the TV? [Razz]

The graduated bell of a funnel is the one thing I'll give y'all that is most likely to do the things claimed. BUT... then to be maximally effective these funnels need to be longer than a peak to peak cycle of the soundwave of a howl.

Perhaps it's the resonance in these funnels that created this rich sound, like Cronk's buff horn calls?

Krusty

Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on October 15, 2010, 11:47 PM:

Krusty, I don't know you from a blister on a hemmrhoid, so I don't intend to get into a pissing contest with someone who has gone bone dry in the desert.

My comments about Larry O. and the use of his favorite funnel were based on what he actually said, and I'll venture an educated guess that he and Gerry Blair have called in and killed more critters than you have ever read about in your books or on the internet forums.

I guess old Larry O. and call makers like Primos, Johnny Stewart, the true Cronkster, and a host of others use the particular shaped cowhorns, buffalo horns, form molded horns, and all the other shapes and lengths just so their howlers will look like they want them to so guys like you can buy them cause they're pretty, kind of like the gold earring you might have in your ear or nose.

If you think I am trying to pick a feud with you, get rid of that bullshit as soon as possible. I don't feud with guys whose intellect is challenged pertaining to coyote hunting and the calls we call them hairy bastards with.

Good hunting at ya!

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on October 16, 2010, 05:10 AM:

I just bought a big bag of popcorn... this could get good! LOL [Eek!]

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 16, 2010, 07:26 AM:

Al,

I've been down this road before... killing coyotes and understanding the way a call functions, or the science of sound as a whole, aren't mutually exclusive.

And considering the current condition of your pecker, which may be the reason your shorts are in a knot and why you didn't get or take my jokes the way they were intended, I wouldn't be in any hurry to get in any kind of pissing contest if I were you.

I'd tell you to go fuck yourself, but again I dunno if you can even get it up anymore, so I won't bother. [Roll Eyes]

My skills as a call maker, and the results those calls bring others in the field, should supersede any question as to my ability to use one.
Cronk himself has said that I am one of the most talented call makers he knows of, unquestionably honest, and welcome in his home or on a stand with him anytime.

It's not my intellect that's challenged when it pertains to numbers of coyotes called and killed, it's my experience (read woodsmanship), my geographical location, and anymore my lack of any real desire, that originally held (and now holds) me back from a better body count.
It's been a number of years since I've even sat on a stand with the hopes of killing a coyote.

But, I do have a fairly broad understanding of the subject of coyote hunting, which isn't exactly rocket science anyways.

The fact that you'd mention pieces of shit from Primos in the same vein as a handmade buff howler made by Rich Cronk, shows which one of us doesn't really understand much about the qualities of sound.

Many people make and sell a lot of calls, without much real understanding of how they actually function.

Some call makers, and I suspect Will Primos to be among this group, don't even make let alone design the majority of the parts and pieces of the calls they sell.

Just because someone has a higher body count or more call sales than I do, doesn't make them a scientist, or class valedictorian.
I think the discussions concerning calls and sound that I've had with Tim (Mr Coyote (cough cough) himself), Slydog, and others, prove this all too well.
Because some guy named Larry, or Gerry, or Al, says it's so, doesn't make it the gospel.

There's lots of variables in what makes a good (hand) call a good call, but...
"Only the yippers know, and they ain't sayin'!"

It's the domain of a chickenshit, to counter hard facts with "my dad can beat up your dad" types of statements, or to call into question what type of jewelery one might choose to wear or where they wear it (*which by the way, I wear none of).

I notice that you tout the body counts of others, in this non-feudal feud crap you bring at me, and not your own...
So, other than the charm of a snake oil salesman, and enough time to respond to dozens of FoxPro threads all over the internet each day, what the fuck qualifies you to be on the FoxPro Field Staff anyways?

Go nurse your pee-pee, and come back with a sharp pencil and a calculator when your ready for a battle of wits with me, eh. [Wink]

Nikon,

Ya like that? [Razz]

Krusty

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 16, 2010, 10:50 AM:

Shit, I would have probably guessed at least one ear ring?

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 16, 2010, 02:28 PM:

quote:
Shit, I would have probably guessed at least one ear ring?

The county won't give him the money for one..LOL... [Razz]

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on October 16, 2010, 03:16 PM:

Yep! Liked that one...

I need to go get some more butter now.

Nikonut [Razz]

P.S. I don't know if you are THE most talented call maker out there but I will stake my knowledge on the fact that you make some very fine sounding(and looking)calls!!! [Wink]

[ October 16, 2010, 03:19 PM: Message edited by: Nikonut ]

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 16, 2010, 03:55 PM:

Leonard,

I think it was about 1979 or so, way before anyone else was doing it, I pierced my ear with a sewing needle, and took to wearing an earing.
Much blood was shed over it, some mine, some not.

Once it became "mainstream cool" I figured it was passé, and gave it up.

Even when I did wear one, I wasn't into bling.

Tim,

As a guy who's living comes from the fatback of public projects (WASTE), I wouldn't say shit about where my money comes from, if I were you.

How much unemployment do you collect while sitting around on your fat ass all winter long anyways? [Roll Eyes]

Probably more than I ever did in my whole life ($0).

The rest of you guys, don't need to worry... I'm spending our money wisely, I've currently got a 3.89 GPA, and I just got accepted into the National Honors Society this last week.

I take my education very seriously, "C's might get degrees" but A's get the good jobs.

In about a year and a half, I'll have an Associate of Applied Sciences degree, and will be looking to transfer to a four year school... I wonder if Tim will, still, be an idiot (or Mr (don't break your arm patting yourself on the back) Coyote) by then?

Nikon,

I didn't say "THE" did I? [Eek!]

Stay tuned... [Razz]

Krusty

P.S. Leonard, If I don't say it enough, "thanks" for keepin' this place open, and giving me a place to blow off a lil steam now and then.
It's almost therapeudic, for me, at times like this.

P.P.S. Do you know much about the Santa Ana Watershed?

[ October 16, 2010, 04:00 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 16, 2010, 04:10 PM:

Ok..............I don't claim to understand all that I know about sound, but there are a few things that I'm pretty sure about.

(1) If I put a J.C. Products reed between my teeth & blow it, it doesn't make a lot of noise.

(2) If I put that same reed into a call body, it makes more noise.

(3) If I hang some kind of 'bell' onto the end of the call, it {seems to me} makes even more noise.

(4) The noise will also be the loudest in the direction that it's pointed in regardless of what the reed is housed in.

I also know that Krusty makes a damn fine call. I have to respect his opinion, even if I don't totally agree with him or understand the science behind his arguments. No big deal & not worth getting into a cyber-fist-fight over. [Cool]

Posted by Lone Howl (Member # 29) on October 16, 2010, 05:57 PM:

Krusty,not related to this conversation, but I admire you for gettin some skoolin, thats no shit. Not an easy thing to get done. Congrats on your honors.
Mark

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on October 16, 2010, 08:16 PM:

Hey Krusty...

quote:
Nikon,

I didn't say "THE" did I?

Well, No you didn't! I said that and should have known I wouldn't get it by you!!! [Eek!]

Your earlier statement was right on the button, but this is the internet and I just had to bump it up a notch! I've still got two bags of "Jiffy Pop"!!!! [Big Grin]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 16, 2010, 08:36 PM:

quote:
Tim,

As a guy who's living comes from the fatback of public projects (WASTE), I wouldn't say shit about where my money comes from, if I were you.

How much unemployment do you collect while sitting around on your fat ass all winter long anyways?
Probably more than I ever did in my whole life ($0).

My money comes from working in the mine, road building or repair or anything that envolves the moveing of dirt..

As for the next question you should know the answer since you are all educated, but since you don't I'll clue you in on "Unemployment insurance
".... The insurance money is paid in by the employer, "my employer" What dose'nt get used by me or the other employees goes to the county and state and they give it to the low life's that are to lazey to keep a job or even try, and some is also given to those that may have a run of bad luck but there is'nt much left for them since there are so many worthless shits claiming it.... To be qualified for insurnce and full benifits you must first have a job for atleast one work season so this mustbe why you have never claimed any...Oh by the way the money is good.. [Big Grin]

Yep you stay in school long enough it puts you that much closer to retirement so you won't have to work too many years. And once all that schooling is done who's to say if there willbe a job waiting for you..LOL [Razz]

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 16, 2010, 10:22 PM:

Kokopelli,

Let's take a look at "scale" for a minute here, then we can move on to your specific points.

When Dennis posted his info about megaphones we learned that the peak to peak (p²) wavelength of the average human voice is measured in feet.

Now there's no way right now for me to be able to establish the exact length of the p² wave of an average JC reed, definitively, so let's just say (and you're going to have to take my word for it) that (because the "engine" is way smaller) the wavelength is going to be a lot shorter (ok?).
And let's just say for the sake of argument, that an open reed call is going to be longer.

What this boils down to, at the brass tacks level, is that the megaphone for a JC reed is way smaller than the one for a human voice.

We know this because volume and amplitude are products of proportion and pitch is a product of these factors combined with (or broken down by) "time"...
It's, very basically speaking, a l x w ÷ t equation where w = amplitude. But I digress.

So now we take your little JC reed, and we get can to work.
But, before we do that watch this video...

You can see, just before they turn on the strobe light, that the "shape" of the tube that is her windpipe has an effect on pitch and volume.
And after the strobe you can see that the "tension" of the cords has a stronger effect.

Back to JC and Company - now with our little reed we cannot change tension, but we can use a "chamber" not unlike the girl's windpipe, and not unlike Dennis' megaphone...
Once you've reached the desried minimum maximally effective length (MMEL), anything beyond that is "cake" (a bonus, more gooder, whatever ya wanna call it).

"Between your teeth" not only falls short of this MMEL, but the fleshy make-up of your mouth "eats sound" ... not only the sound coming out of the business end of the reed but much of the incidental sound created upstream (put a closed reed call in your mouth backwards and draw air in, to hear this incidental sound).

Placing the reed in a tube that isn't "sound hungry" leaves more of the sound "left over" to go out looking for coyotes.
We're not making more, we're eating less. [Wink]

Now many different call makers have had many different hypotheses about the shapes of call bodies, and this can often be reflected in the type of sound these call makers products make.

Richard Grantham had some very strong ideas about stepped chambers, and given what I know I concur with his theorums... but again I digress to a point, but suffice it to say that if the steps corralate to the average "impact points" of the average wavelength, you're golden.
Walt Betts smooths the chamber down to a graduated bell.
Others use cylindrical tubes, or multi-step drills.

Let's look at this illustration for a sec...

This is from a page on Wikipedia regarding resonance, but we'll get bact to that topic later (maybe).
Back to our little tube, for now.

The tube on the left is too short, and the on on the right too long (or longer than MMEL).
The one in the middle is Goldie-locks, just right.
Now lets just say that the tube started out slightly tighter than a wavelength is wide... the wave will bounce off the walls, until it clears them, and then start to expand once it's free of constriction.
It will first expand to it's natural length, and it and it's energy will degrade as it expands beyond that.
"Stifled" too long and it begins to die before it's free, because it can't grow, and because it transmits too much of it's energy in "ricocheting" (changing direction), eventually, like in the girl's throat, this can (as mentioned somewhere in this thread) end up compressing the wave and slightly changing the pitch.

Ok so now we can get back, and touch on resonance for a bit, since Dennis' questions sent my brain on a quest.
So let's say that, like in the illustration of the tubes, they are the perfect size for the wave, at this length we've hit the resonant frequency.
If we double the pitch, to the second octave resonant frequency, they're still the perfect fit and given an expression something like ½l x w ÷ t.
We can go further to the third octave resonant frequency, ¼l x w ÷ t, and these are again represented by each of the three tubes in the illustration.

A good example we're all familiar with is a beer bottle.
We all know how to blow across the opening and "toot" at the lower first octave.
Blow a bit harder and the pitch doubles.
Blow really hard and we hit the third octave, though this can often be hard to achieve.

How does this apply to calls?
In a big way this demonstrates a theory I've had about pitch breaks in howler, that I previously would have needed one of those endo-stroboscopes to prove.
Let's look at the reed just like the red line in the first tube.
At a normal rate it bends up and down in a singular curve. Up the drive behind it and, at a certain point, the resonant speed/frequency of said reed, and it double bends, just like tube number 2.
Up the frequency a bit more, now we're talkin elk bugles and goose calls, and it triple bends.

Now this differs from, yet is connected to vibrational (mechanical) resonance, because (now again I'm still at the point of theory here, but the motion relating to vibration, given the exactly right timing, could add power to the reed/soundwaves, as the vibration ripples through the call, meeting the soundwaves at the critical "impact points" in unison.

But we're stretching for straws here, as I can't find any foundation in math or in general physics without a whole lot more research that I don't have time for tonight.

So know we're back to the last part of my first post to Al... maybe it's not the funnel, but the responce to the resonance that increases (or appears to increase volume)?

I'm a little less sure, and a lot more confused than I was at the beginning... anybody else feelin' that way? [Razz]

Mark,

Thanks. It's times like this though, that I really see the merit of going back to school, even if I never change professions because of it.

Nikon,

Why I oughta! [Big Grin]

Tim,

In this state, if you are self employed you aren't allowed to pay into the unemployment insurance system, nor to collect from it.
Most of my life I've punched my own ticket.

Other times I worked all year long, so I never needed to draw on it.
If I worked somewhere seasonal, I found other jobs that filled the other seasons (like wrenching on motorcycles, then cutting X-mas trees).

Barring that if you quit a job, which I was known to do here and there, you can't draw on it then either.

By the time I'm finished with school... idiots like you will still need to be directed, and kept from letting all that dirt slosh into the waterways, which is what I am studying about this quarter.
I could end up like a guy I know who just finished two years of trapping hogs, chicken and feral cats, for the USDA in Hawaii.
Or I could end up getting my teaching degree, like several of my professors have encouraged me to do, and working to make the brainwashing system Leonard speaks of a little closer to the reality we'd all like to see it be? [Wink]

Krusty

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 17, 2010, 04:40 AM:

Krusty;
Thanx for the replys. I can even pretty much understand what you're saying. [Smile]

As usual though, every answer raises a couple o' three questions. Bear with me.

It seems like all of the theories & formulas must be based on a single mono-tone note. What happens to the red line in the illustration when I blow harder or softer, cup my hands over the call to affect back pressure, or 'bend' a note?? (I play a little blues harp when no ones around)

You also mentioned call bodies drilled straight, stepped or tapered. Would this affect volume or tone or both?? The other thing that I've wondered about is the inside finish on calls. I have more than a few production calls in my collection that have a fine finish on the outside but look like they were drilled with a bent wood rasp on the inside. Wouldn't this 'eat the sound' or doesn't it really matter much?? Mayhap it's that way on purpose to get the sound the manufacturer wants and not just sloppy production?? (I'm guessing sloppy production)

B.T.W. ...... Ever consider doing a couple of semesters at Eastern Az. U?? I think that you would really like this area. I've heard that there are coyotes south of here, too. [Wink]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 17, 2010, 08:07 AM:

quote:
By the time I'm finished with school... idiots like you will still need to be directed, and kept from letting all that dirt slosh into the waterways, which is what I am studying about this quarter.

They must be way behind the farther west you go.. We already have a program installed here in Mn. Its called "Erosion controll".. Since I run the mine for the company and also sent to other jobs the company I work for sent me to two courses on Erosion control at one of the nearby colleges. I now have a controller lic. and also an installer lic.. We use siltfenceing,environmental rolls , rip-rap, sediment traps, ect. to keep our water-ways clean.. [Wink]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 17, 2010, 08:45 AM:

quote:
You also mentioned call bodies drilled straight, stepped or tapered. Would this affect volume or tone or both??

Koko: From the testing I did with my sound meter and also with Steves on varis calls changeing the inside of a tube mostly just changed the quality of the sound( sounded more like rabbit distress or coyote howls)As for makeing a call louder it wouldbe the tone board or length of the tube to match the tone board you are useing..
Most closed reed calls run about the same for loudness no matter what you use for a tube, but by changeing the thickness or adding steps and so on you can get a better sound from them..

Here is an example: Steve went through most of his calls or tone boards and picked out a few to test for loudness. Steve blew as hard as he could on his calls for the test and I recorded the readings I got from the meter, most of them avr. around 100 db.and some as high as 104-105. Next I had Steve take those same calls and had him blow on them like he would when makeing a stand, the readings dropped to 85-95 db which was still pretty good compared to other calls tested.. For shits and giggles I went out to the truck and brought one of my calls in to the shop to test. I was'nt interested in how loud I could get it by blowing as hard as I could, just wanted to see how loud it was by blowing on it the way I do when calling. Anyway I made a series of sounds with it and recorded on sound meter and to my surprise I was getting 104 db.
My call uses a very narrow tone board compared to Steve's which is much longer and wider..
We also did a series of tests useing Steve's tone board and attaching it to different tubes of which some where made out of wood and some cow horn and buffalo horn and also the bell end from a trumpet. The trumpet gave the loudest sound reading.

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 17, 2010, 07:51 PM:

Koko "It seems like all of the theories & formulas must be based on a single mono-tone note. What happens to the red line in the illustration when I blow harder or softer, cup my hands over the call to affect back pressure, or 'bend' a note?? (I play a little blues harp when no ones around)"

Kokopelli,

"What happens" is the wave will either fall (narrowly or greatly) inside of the width and length of a given tube, or it will crash into the walls and ricochet its way out.

Only the resonant frequencies are the perfect fit.
But with a graduated (conical) tube you'll almost always find a "sweet spot" somewhere along the way.

The variables involved, changes in drive force, back pressure, shape of the tube/sound chamber, the material the tube is made from and how that material is "treated" all come into play, and are part of the reason I'm unwilling to admit that one single variable (shape) can be the whole thing in a nutshell.
Or that that one thing, or all of them combined, can defy the laws of physics.

What a call maker should strive to do, though, is to design around the lowest frequencies (ie longest wavelengths) a call might be used to make, and then the shorter high frequency waves will fit with room to spare.
*This is where the extension tube on a deer grunt comes in to play.

I think calls that are rough inside are not only sloppy production, but in many ways are doomed to eventual structural failure (via moisture entering the wood).
And in the same light, I feel like call makers that worry about form (looks) over function (thin enough walls to enhance sound quality, and a smartly configured chamber) are selling their customers short.
But it can be difficult and even dangerous to turn bodies (on a lathe) as thin as they need to be, to meet some of these requirements.

Tim,

Erosion control isn't a localised idea or practice. When I worked for the excavator/septic services here I too earned an E/C installer's cert (a two hour night class doesn't denote a college education).
But someone had to not only establish the course curriculum, but to establish whether or not these methods prescribed therein are effective.

They don't just make that shit up. [Wink]

And watershed management goes way beyond just erosion and siltation, the Brule River watershed in MN is one that we're studying, and one on the list that's more negatively impacted by humans than almost any other (besides the Hudson)... so I guess y'all ain't as forward back there as ya make yerself out to be?

TA "As for makeing a call louder it wouldbe the tone board or length of the tube to match the tone board you are useing."

Bull shit! [Roll Eyes]

As well demonstrated by the PVC pipe calls, it's the size of the air channel more than anything else that limits volume.
Next would be material the call body is made from, density being the most important factor, with shape and thickness following that up.

TA "Most closed reed calls run about the same for loudness no matter what you use for a tube...

More bullshit!

The way JC reeds are labeled and sold directly disputes this claim.
An LV is a "loud voiced" reed, MV medium, and there are different "volumes" of reeds offered in most pitch/voice configurations.

I think AP Jones once said there were over 100 different reeds sold by JC and Wintress combined.

Your "average" probably numbers around four (maybe seven if you're counting, and testing, every one that AP offers).

Changes of 10dbA are insignificant, so changes of 15dbA are only mildly significant.

And we've discussed sound readings of calls taken indoors before, and how they are invalid due to the refractionary qualities of the walls.
How without a uniform test bed, using set and repeatable parameters over a broad range of pitch and types of sounds, you are just guessing at best and lying at the worst.
And how you may not be qualified to accurately use and read a dbA meter.

The trombone bell (which is what Steve called it in the beginning of this thread), is the hardest (read dense) example you cite, so that density more than shape plays into whatever increase in volume it could produce.

I instantly think of calls like Dan Thompson's Pup Squaller, and Lance's PREDATR model with the bullet casings, and how this effects volume (eaten, or more correctly not eaten by the call).

Tim, you're NOT a call maker, and it'll be a cold day in hell before you have anywhere near the kind of understanding about the way a hand call works, or the science of sound, that I do.

Reed shape, width, length, thickness, parent material... the toneboard style, length, rate of curvature, and the size and configuration of the air channel, all have an effect on the sound quality and volume produced by a given call.
To try and imply that the width of the reed and toneboard alone has anything to do with anything is crap. [Roll Eyes]

I've had several call makers say that the calls I made them are the loudest they've ever heard.
Don't try and tell me or anyone else why a call is what it is... and if you just want to theorize, be prepared to have me call you on it.

Krusty

[ October 17, 2010, 08:12 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 17, 2010, 09:22 PM:

quote:
Bull shit!

As well demonstrated by the PVC pipe calls, it's the size of the air channel more than anything else that limits volume.
Next would be material the call body is made from, density being the most important factor, with shape and thickness following that up.

So you are saying a larger air channel tone board is louder???
If so then why is this call louder?
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Toys/IMG_0766.jpg[/IMG]]

Than these calls:: http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Toys/IMG_1520.jpg[/IMG]]

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Toys/pictures006.jpg[/IMG]]

quote:
The way JC reeds are labeled and sold directly disputes this claim.
An LV is a "loud voiced" reed, MV medium, and there are different "volumes" of reeds offered in most pitch/voice configurations.

My testing was done on store bought and custom closed reed calls. You can take a jackrabbit voiced call and compare it to another jackrabbit voiced call that has a different tube weither it be length or thickness they are still about the same in loudness
, give or take a few db.. The same test was done with cottontail voiced calls with same results.. So if a call builder says his closed reed calls are better or louder he is full of shit period and just trying to make a sale...

quote:
And we've discussed sound readings of calls taken indoors before, and how they are invalid due to the refractionary qualities of the walls.
How without a uniform test bed, using set and repeatable parameters over a broad range of pitch and types of sounds, you are just guessing at best and lying at the worst.
And how you may not be qualified to accurately use and read a dbA meter.

All I'm doing is testing calls for loudness, not trying to tune them.. (wrong guy)
As far as the tests go it dose'nt matter where I do it just as long as its the same for all the calls tested. I've tested them in the house and outside it don't matter...
As for the sound meter I am useing it correctly and to make sure I talked with the guy who gave it to me to use and he is certified...
You've never used one so you are just guessing at best, but what you could do is look around in school I'm sure one of the teachers may have one for you to borrow..

quote:
Tim, you're NOT a call maker, and it'll be a cold day in hell before you have anywhere near the kind of understanding about the way a hand call works, or the science of sound, that I do.

Reed shape, width, length, thickness, parent material... the toneboard style, length, rate of curvature, and the size and configuration of the air channel, all have an effect on the sound quality and volume produced by a given call.
To try and imply that the width of the reed and toneboard alone has anything to do with anything is crap.

I've had several call makers say that the calls I made them are the loudest they've ever heard.
Don't try and tell me or anyone else why a call is what it is... and if you just want to theorize, be prepared to have me call you on it.

I never made claim to be a call maker, I just use them. And just because you make them dose'nt make you a expert...LOL

As you have seen I have a pretty good collection of calls and also a sound meter so I have to disagree with most of what you said in quote above..

As for youre call the one that I have made by you is'nt that loud, actually it runs about avr. in loudness so youre buddies where just sucking up to you or don't know what they are talking about...

Youre not the first call maker I've had a go around with and you won't be the last..LOL
Like I just said I've been there before thats why I have a shit load of custom calls also for comparison and most don't make it to the lanyard and its just not me. I've met a few callers through the years and have seen there collections of calls laying in a box and noticed that some are the same as what I have on the shelf, I went so far as to ask them why they don't use them, one word "junk" [Roll Eyes]

Arkyyoter does make some great calls and Steve Thompson makes a heck of a bite reed call and a call maker out of Texas makes a dandy open reed antler call, and of course Cronk has some good ones as well to just name a few... [Smile]

You've only called in 1 or 2 coyotes from what I've read.. Don't you think its maybe the call you are useing thats the problem???? [Wink]

[ October 17, 2010, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 17, 2010, 11:32 PM:

Tim,

To answer your first question, I can't tell anything about the first call picture, especially what size it is, but I believe you're implying that it's smaller in stature...
If it is loud it's a combination of many variables.

Same for the ones you say aren't loud.

You call closed reeds "jackrabbit" and "cottontail" as if you're dealing with just two things.
And just because you say you've tested these things, doesn't mean I believe you actually have, or that if you have you've done so correctly... remember, you're the guy who claimed a WT, and a hand call, is louder than a rifle. [Wink]

Anyone here believe a WT playing distress sounds is louder than a rifle? [Razz]

Testing calls where sound can be reflected back (echo) to the meter can and will change the amount of sound reaching the meter. Sound labs, are sound proofed.

You say you are using the meter correctly, but you claimed that before, until Nikon busted you... [Roll Eyes]

And I have used several different dbA meters, correctly, as a technical inspector at the racetrack, while we ran racing motorcycles on the dyno, and while doing soundchecks when I was a roady.
I've also used a frequency meter and an audio spectrograph. [Wink]

The fact that I make calls doesn't make me an expert, but that combined with the knowledge I already had, and the studying I have done on the subject since meeting you and Sly, makes me way closer to one than you are. lol

A dbA meter doesn't teach physics, it doesn't give you an understanding of extremely high speed fluid dynamics or mechanics, it doesn't imply empirical test procedures are in place, and it doesn't make you smart.
In the six months or so you've had it you've pretty much just used it to prove you're not as smart as you think you are.

From these figures, nothing is more than a dbA or so apart from anything else... except your wife;

"Red-desert howler gave a high reading of 98.2 avr.

Custom yote buster howler; 98.4-98.5

Custom close reed small barrel; Rabbit 96.1
bird/peeps/ flutter tongue 96.0

black custom closed reed med. barrel; Rabbit 96.2 with bird sounds at 96-97.0

Scerry bite reed 97.0

small custom deer antler open reed; Howls 98.1

Wiley-one she howler; 98.2

voice howls; Wife-85-86
Me- 97.2-98.0"

And the remember this;

"Measurements in db(A) are widespread and convenient but you must remember that they are a compromise and tell us nothing about the frequency content of a noise. The ear can tell a difference between a washing machine and a telephone buzzer because their sounds have a very different structure. But such different sounds may give identical readings in dB(A)."

Anyone that wants to visit the old thread called sound levels can see that your limited experience with a meter of this type and testing procedures are fatally flawed.

As far as the call I made for you (which you basically ripped me off to get), you once said how much you liked it and that you'd continue to use it, but then you said you were going to return it to me... which you never did. So now you're just a liar, and a thief, and nothing you ever say about it again is worth shit in my book.

TA "Most of the hand calls I tested open and closed reed had a reading of 96 -98.0."

Everything you've ever "tested" runs at about an average... so again nothing you say about the call I made or any other call carries any weight with me.

Obviously you need to do some re-reading, I guess, because you have your numbers off as it relates to my record of predators called.

And just like I told Al, and plenty of others before him, calling and/or killing coyotes and being intelligent aren't mutually exclusive.
You prove that, all too well! [Cool]

Krusty

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 18, 2010, 12:51 AM:

Let's all play; FIND KRUSTY'S RIPPED OFF CALL ON TIM'S BLANKET!

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 18, 2010, 02:41 AM:

Leonard,
Time carry's his Krusty "whiner" on his lanyard at all times because it is louder than a WT caller.

Posted by 4949shooter (Member # 3530) on October 18, 2010, 03:27 AM:

quote:
Let's all play; FIND KRUSTY'S RIPPED OFF CALL ON TIM'S BLANKET!

Lol kinda like "Where's Waldo?"

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 18, 2010, 04:18 AM:

The call is just to the left of the Scerry calls. LOL..

You asked for youre call back and someone suggested I send it to Andy. I never agreed to either so stop makeing shit up as you go.. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
Testing calls where sound can be reflected back (echo) to the meter can and will change the amount of sound reaching the meter. Sound labs, are sound proofed.

True but it still dose'nt change how loud it is..

quote:
As far as the call I made for you (which you basically ripped me off to get),

I sent you the traps first before I recieved the call, if you were'nt happy with the trade then you should'nt of sent the call. (stupid) [Roll Eyes]

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on October 18, 2010, 05:31 AM:

It's pretty early in the morning but I'm going to go ahead and pop some more popcorn!!!

[Eek!]

Posted by Randy Roede (Member # 1273) on October 18, 2010, 07:15 AM:

Krusty,

I have been told that deeper tones have a broader sound wave than higher sound waves and are able to be heard at greater distances. That the deeper sound waves are able to travel thru brush trees etc better that the higher waves. The sound wave is broader and denser in construction.

It made sense some what is you think of the sound of a fog horn etc, and here the range of a cow's bellar can fight wind etc better than most sounds we have on the prairie.

Is this fact or fiction, is there some data to verify this?

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 18, 2010, 07:49 AM:

Tim,

I don't have time this morning, but I'll be back to show how there never was [ia trade[/i], and that long after the fact that you offered to GIVE me some old junk traps you no longer had any use for you asked for a call without any mention of why you felt like you deserved one.

In the mean time, here's the short version;

TA "Oh Krusty! COULD YOU PUT ME IN THE FRONT OF THE LINE."

K "TA,

I'd be glad to slip you in.

I thought you didn't want a call?"

In an e-mail giving you my address, so you could send the traps, we discussed your son someday taking up muskrat trapping, and I offered to send some 110 conibears, if he should ever need them. No calls, no money or anything else was mentioned when you DONATED those traps.

And way before Andy's dog ate his Krusty Krier, you said you were sending the call back to me.

Stay tuned...

Randy,

You close to correct, the "width" of a soundwave is the amplitude.
The length is the frequency (how often the wave comes).
Lower frequencies carry further in a sort of a "shortest path is a straight line" way and like walking less energy is lost by taking this shorter path.

Krusty

Posted by Greenside (Member # 10) on October 18, 2010, 09:05 AM:

Krusty

When you attach a bell to a call. does the princple of forced vibration have any effect on amplitude?

K

quote:
Changes of 10dbA are insignificant, so changes of 15dbA are only mildly significant

Are you really sure of that statement? Might be a few frogs that might disagree with you on that one.

[ October 18, 2010, 09:05 AM: Message edited by: Greenside ]

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 18, 2010, 11:43 AM:

Dennis,

I suppose there could be some change in amplitude, if the vibration is timed to a point where it was able to give the sound wave a "kick in the butt" as it went by... but remember we're talking about a sound wave that's traveling at, duh, the speed of sound.

How much of a change is what's at question, and I'd say, not a whole lot. [Wink]

quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Changes of 10dbA are insignificant, so changes of 15dbA are only mildly significant
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you really sure of that statement? Might be a few frogs that might disagree with you on that one.

When I was researching for the call sounds thread I read that changes of 10dbA were insignificant. This statement was made as it pertains to human hearing, so perhaps it could be more significant, to a frog?

Incidentally, the difference between a whisper and a normal spoken voice is about 30-40 dbA, so I'd say (imo) that sort of a difference is "significant." [Smile]

Krusty

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 18, 2010, 11:49 AM:

Up top, left the Sceery's maybe?

- DAA

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 18, 2010, 11:51 AM:

Oh, I guess I shoulda read some of the replies after you Leonard, before giving my answer, LOL!

- DAA

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 18, 2010, 12:34 PM:

Yeah, that's the one I was saving, incase everyone got stumped. lol

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 18, 2010, 04:42 PM:

For the record, rifle silencers reduce the noise 20-30 db http://silencertests.net/

but I've never heard a call that was 160db or higher...

Posted by Kokopelli (Member # 633) on October 18, 2010, 05:05 PM:

One more question;
Is the decible rating, scale, whatever, a straight scale or a logarithm like the Richter scale for earthquakes???

On the Richter Scale, a 6.8 earthquake is big time, way more powerful than a little 5.0 aftershock. (Trust me on this) If decibles are rated on a similar scale, it might explain some of the confusion.

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 18, 2010, 06:25 PM:

quote:
I don't have time this morning, but I'll be back to show how there never was [ia trade[/i], and that long after the fact that you offered to GIVE me some old junk traps you no longer had any use for you asked for a call without any mention of why you felt like you deserved one.

Actualy it was'nt a trade, it was more like a gift or favor. Like I said before you got the traps before I recieved the call and if you were'nt happy with them all you had to do is send them back and kept youre call.
Yes I asked for a call and yes I must of derserved it cause you sent me one. [Razz]

I still think you got the better end of it. All I got was a piece of wood you got some nice traps that will last a long time if taken care of..

quote:
In an e-mail giving you my address, so you could send the traps, we discussed your son someday taking up muskrat trapping, and I offered to send some 110 conibears, if he should ever need them. No calls, no money or anything else was mentioned when you DONATED those traps.

Once again youre mixed up or mistaken.
I sent you some 110 traps and said I was going to keep a few of the 110's for myself or my son.
No money was asked for the call by you.. I may have offered you money or I may not have.. I don't recall.. [Roll Eyes]

quote:
And way before Andy's dog ate his Krusty Krier, you said you were sending the call back to me.

Mistakeing again!!! I said no such thing. The call stays where its at so quit crying..LOL

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 18, 2010, 06:32 PM:

quote:
For the record, rifle silencers reduce the noise 20-30 db http://silencertests.net/

but I've never heard a call that was 160db or higher...

You won't unless you hook it up to a big amp.
Most hand calls range from 60 db up to 98db db with a few getting as loud as 104 db
For a E-caller it depends on what sound you play and the size of the E-caller. Coyote vocals are the loudest over prey distress sounds..

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 18, 2010, 06:44 PM:

Tom In case you missed it here is a sound test useing a 17 pred., 22-250, and 22-250ackley.

And as a bonus here is a vidio of the sound test meter and a recording of a coyote howl and rabbit distress being played on Goldwave... This should give you a better understanding... [URL=[IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Toys/th_6152010_113334.jpg [/IMG]][/URL]

[IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Toys/th_6162010_203409.jpg[/IMG ]

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 18, 2010, 07:41 PM:

Nope, didn't miss it Tim.

Just don't think a 6.5x55 is that loud and yet it cranked out 166db, yet your guns were much quieter according to you.

17 Pred. 69.3 and 53.4
2nd shot 73.4 and 55.4

22-250 71.8/ 61.9

2nd. shot 61.5/ 65.2 ( got to close to the weeds)

Now you stated that this was at 30ft so that's why the difference, so is this why a mouse fart is still louder than a gunshot according to your testing?

Mouse distress at 30 ft. 71-94
mouse distress at 4" from caller 120-130.

Lamb distress at 30 ft. 96-104
Lamb distress at 4" from caller 125-134

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 18, 2010, 07:58 PM:

Tom. On the first test I had the meter at the wrong setting and I also said this in one of my posts.
I made the correction on the meter and did the test over which you will see in this vidio.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Toys/th_6152010_113334.jpg [/IMG]]

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 18, 2010, 08:13 PM:

Ya I saw where you said you were gonna test again but the resuls were not there.

your link is dead

You scientist are all alike, you can make the results show anything you want to...

I know this, a gunshot is louder than an e-caller.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 18, 2010, 08:31 PM:

A mouse distress is louder than a .22-.250? Wow, I never would have thunk it. [Big Grin]

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 18, 2010, 08:36 PM:

quote:
I know this, a gunshot is louder than an e-caller.

It depends on what cal. of a gun you are testing. The bigger the cal. the louder the bang..just like in the last test with the right settings.
17 Pred.84-90db
22-250 88-110db
22-250 ackley 103db

Coyote howls from a WT are 95-105 db, lamb. distress 96-104 db jack rabbit 95-100db any other distress sounds fall under 100db.

Try this link: [URL=[IMG]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f208/TA17Rem/Toys/th_6152010_113334.jpg [/IMG]][/URL]

[ October 18, 2010, 08:48 PM: Message edited by: TA17Rem ]

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 18, 2010, 09:12 PM:

Tim,

I don't have much more time for this shit, other than to say "you're wrong" about saying you'd send the call back, and I'll find proof of that when I get caught up on my exams later this week.

If you're the one keeping the call, which you could sell for way more than I could sell the rusty old Victor traps you sent me (no conibears in there), maybe you should quit crying about it. [Wink]

I had originally sent it, just like you did the traps, as a gift.
THERE WAS NO TRADE!

It's way more than just "a piece of wood" and many other callers including me would be proud to have it.

I have wonder how many other call makers that you shmoozed are now wondering if you took them too?
How many wonder if you're saying their work is the "junk" you have?
And how this will affect you ability to get free schwag in the future?
Some fair weather fuckhead you've turned out to be... [Roll Eyes]

Kokopelli,

DbA are represented by a linear scale.

Krusty

Posted by TA17Rem (Member # 794) on October 19, 2010, 04:15 AM:

quote:
I have wonder how many other call makers that you shmoozed are now wondering if you took them too?
How many wonder if you're saying their work is the "junk" you have?
And how this will affect you ability to get free schwag in the future?
Some fair weather fuckhead you've turned out to be...

Only time for a quick post..
I paid the asking price for all the custom calls I have..No freebies...
Cronk, Arkyyoter, Wileyone are some of the good ones. When I get time tonight I'll give you a list of ones that are not so good. Bearmatic is one that comes to mind...Later [Big Grin]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 19, 2010, 08:36 AM:

This quarrel is getting tedious and pointless, but far be it, for me to suggest a truce of some kind. My give a shit ain't working.

Tim, speaking in generalities, I don't think a 30/30 is louder than a 7Mag, just because the bore size is larger.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on October 19, 2010, 08:59 AM:

Leonard:

Please forgive me for starting this thread, I didn't think we would end up with all these arguments. I thought I was just providing some useful information for the coyote callers with an effective, cheap, and simple way to locate coyotes with open reed calls.

[ October 19, 2010, 09:01 AM: Message edited by: SD Howler ]

Posted by DAA (Member # 11) on October 19, 2010, 09:17 AM:

Steve, it's a long held belief of mine, that absolutely no good deed goes unpunished on the internet.

So, don't sweat it.

- DAA

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 19, 2010, 10:15 AM:

Yeah, Steve. Don't sweat it, it is not your fault. The root cause is the policies here on Huntmasters. There is no editing or deleting and the only moderating I do is verbal contributing. There are no rules to stay on topic, or hijacking a thread, we let the topic wander off wherever it goes; sometimes it is entertaining and sometimes not so much.

They all know that they can get anything off their chest whenever they feel like it. It is a novel concept on the Internet called freedom of speech and freedom to make as much of an ass out of yourself as you are able.

Bottom line, you bear no responsibility for trainwrecks. And, don't let it stop you from starting another topic, anytime it strikes your fancy.

Good hunting. LB

edit: believe it or not, some of this shit has value.

[ October 19, 2010, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 19, 2010, 10:47 AM:

SD Howler,
You started a good topic that provided free information for the folks who wish to modify their mouth blown calls. Nothing wrong with that at all. [Wink]

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on October 19, 2010, 11:04 AM:

How bout some rock porn

stay after them
Kelly

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 19, 2010, 11:11 AM:

The first time I saw that rock porn, I was in the Army, stationed at Fort Bliss. Drove to Carlsbad Caverns one weekend, and looked at some decent coyote country with a few gray fox thrown in, on the way.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Kelly Jackson (Member # 977) on October 19, 2010, 11:43 AM:

yep you nailed it LB.

Hope yall have a great time at the campout.

Back to the spreadsheets....catch you later
Kelly

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 19, 2010, 02:06 PM:

Leonard,

Awww c'mon man?

You know I can make way more of an ass of myself than this. [Razz]

I agree though, that this has gotten more than tedious.
Consider the matters, of calls, and of extensions added to calls of whatever type, closed, as far as I'm concerned.

Just to drag this off in a totally unexpected direction,I voice howled a coyote in this morning, on my way to school! [Eek!]

I think I could have gotten it to come a lot closer to me than it did, about 80 yards, had I kept walking down the sidewalk.
When it checked up, I howled again, and the coyote turned tail and hit the afterburners (Kansas style). [Big Grin]

Krusty

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 19, 2010, 03:36 PM:

Krusty,

Kudos to you for everything you've done to turn your station in life around from what it was when you first came onto this scene. Regardless of what anyone has to say about how many coyote you have or have not called, you're pretty danged sharp. I'm impressed.

Having said that, I want to offer a little free advice that I learned way back when I graduated from college and came back home all learned up with book smarts and the like. With all that knowin' I had, I quickly learned just how uneducated and misguided the folks back home were. I was a veritable walking, talking "solution in search of a problem". Can't tell you how many arguments I started trying to straighten those folks out for nothing more than their misguided notions on such things as why our quail were disappearing. They just knew it was the turkeys because such-and-such had heard it somewhere before. Turned out, according to recent studies, that a lot of quail nest predation can be attributed to, of all things, those damned deer. Go figure.

In any event, I could drive back there and find those that are still alive and show them just how right I am one more time, but their responses would likely be pretty much what they were the first time around... they were offended. They'd much rather live their day to day believing what they think and be kinda wrong when it doesn't' matter one bit in the big scheme of things than to be corrected by a know-it-all, even if they're right and they know it. After a while, you just learn to understand that everyone travels a different road in life to where they are and even if you are certain that your facts are the God's honest truth, they believe what they've seen with their own eyes, have experienced firsthand, and, in their opinion, is their God's honest truth. Unless their ignorance or misinformation threatens to bring civilization as we know it down around our ears, I just smile and move on. It isn't any one of our's place to make sure that everyone in the world sees things as we do. If that were case, all but one of us would be unnecessary.

Now, as far as Kelly's cave porn, believe it or not, there's a connection to the rest of this conversation.

You see, calls are a lot like vaginas. Most everyone here likes a good vagina, I presume, and each of us has tried to get our hands on a well-made vagina as often as time and good fortune has allowed over the course of our lives. Hell, some vaginas are even custom-made, while others are just run of the mill factory models. As it is in life, you get what you pay for.

Like a vagina, the more experience you have with them, the better they seem to work and the more you can do with them. Some guys are better than others. But, most importantly, except for a very few anally retentive sorts, most guys don't give a rat's ass HOW a vagina works. All they want and need to know is that it DOES work when they need it to.

The only difference I can see between them is that if I owned a call that broke down every 28 days and became unusable, I'd be sending it in for a refund. Just sayin'.... [Smile]

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 19, 2010, 04:26 PM:

All I know is, I can hardly get a decent night's sleep, worrying as I do about GLOBAL WARMING!

What can we do about it, K? Any idees for us ignorant boffos?

Good hunting. LB

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 19, 2010, 06:38 PM:

Sea Dog,
I think you mean that there is a hell a lot of difference between book smarts and STREET smarts. [Cool]

Posted by Cdog911 (Member # 7) on October 19, 2010, 07:40 PM:

That's a good summation, Rich. I've known a number of people who were brilliant with intellectual stuff but couldn't go a day without just pissing somebody off. LOL

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 19, 2010, 08:32 PM:

I'm just glad you didn't sort us out on e-callers and e-vaginas...

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 19, 2010, 09:31 PM:

Lance,

I already tried to explain it once, to Rich, that what I know about sound isn't new, or related to my college studies of late (other than I have new math and language skills that help me to understand, and articulate, what I know).

I don't mean to change the world, and like I also stated earlier, in large part this was just a way for me to "vent" some of the considerable pressure of mid-terms.

And I get what you're saying, sometimes ignorance doesn't mean stupidity, it means one chooses to ignore the facts.

Sometimes though, as I believe is the case with Tim, there are both kinds of ignorance at work (lord and pygmies and all) [Big Grin]

I get your analogy about the vagina, and if one were to wish to become an expert on that topic they might read things like "The Kama Sutra" ...well, if one wanted to have a similar understanding of the machine that a hand call is, they may find reading materials harder to find.

For anyone looking to be a call maker, or user, with this deeper understanding, I suggest they read The Two Stroke Tuner's Handbook with a focus on the "expansion chamber" exhaust system.
*Which I first read in about 1976.
A PDF Version can be found here;
http://www.vintagesleds.com/library/manuals/misc/Two-stroke%20Tuner's%20Handbook.pdf

Many times new call makers have come to me, away from the forums, to discuss the mechanics of calls. One in particular, Timbertoes, was familiar with this book and was in my opinion the one who understood more about the science of sound than any other I'd ever spoken with.

One phrase that stands out as I review what I probably at one time in my life could have quoted, is this; "What will be provided is a kind of “state of the art” report about highspeed, high-output two-stroke engines for laymen-who in most cases do not have access
to the literature (SAE papers, etc.) available to engineers and thus must rely upon hunches (often wrong) and folklore (almost invariably wrong) for guidance."

As call makers, or users, we don't have access to any technical writings, and rely on hunches that are "often wrong", and folklore that may be "almost invariably wrong" in a scientific sense.

For most of us call making is a quantitative thing, meaning that we have to combine knowledge from a wide variety of sources and venues.

Rich,

While I'll take that as a compliment, I'd like to think that I am way more street smart than I am book smart, and that overall I am just plain smart.

Leonard,

I'd no sooner get into a discussion about global extremism, than I would debate whether or not there is a God (or if so how many of 'em). [Big Grin]

But I only have to walk up to the top of a mountain (Mount Blanca), where hundreds if not thousands of years worth of snow sat, in the form of a massive glacier, and look down at the empty hole, to wonder where it all went in less than a lifetime.

I don't know, but I do wonder. [Wink]

Krusty

[ October 19, 2010, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]

Posted by CrossJ (Member # 884) on October 20, 2010, 04:28 AM:

LOL Cdog.....I like your analogy. So basically, taking that into consideration, callmakers really are basically just pimps.

On another note, I would like to get a better understanding of sound and how it travels(in regards to distance), but we are leaving for the campout in a few minutes. Maybe another time.

Maintain

P.S. Tom, you are in charge of the Okie forum....I'd give the responsibility to Kelly, but he's just too busy.

Posted by Rich (Member # 112) on October 20, 2010, 08:59 AM:

"While I'll take that as a compliment, I'd like to think that I am way more street smart than I am book smart, and that overall I am just plain smart."
-----------------------------------------------
Yes Krusty, you'r opinion of yourself has risen to a very high level. The more you talk, the lower the opinion that others have for you falls. This is my best advice for you-----Talk less, listen more.

Posted by Possumal (Member # 823) on October 25, 2010, 12:08 AM:

[Smile]

For all interested, I was finally released by my urologist this past Friday, with the removal of about a 18 inch long stint out of my joystick and connected plumbing. Man did it ever hurt and feel good at the same time.

All back to near normal now with the only exception being my electrolytes are still out of balance, and I have a ways to go to real full recovery status. In any event, he has me scheduled for next April to check things out. God is good, even at the worst of times, with my situation lasting from August 27 until October 22, a long period of pain for an ancient marsupial. I feel so much better now and that is what counts, forget about the past bad times. Coyote hunting time is here!

Now for what I intend to be my last replies of any kind to one Krustyklimber, self proclaimed genius and comptroller of all things intelligent. I don't intend to get involved on the sordid low level the Krusty one sinks to, especially the use of his filthy lack of vocabulary to make a feeble attempt to cast negative aspersions against people he does not know personally, nor does he know anything about them intellectually or skillwise at any level, especially predator hunting, with our beloved Wiley coyote being the star of the big show.

Since the Krusty one has self proclaimed himsef to be just plain smart, even brilliant in some of the levels of higher education he seeks to achieve in, I can't help but wonder why he doesn't spend a few minutes a day with a basic grade school spelling book and master some four to six letter words, maybe even some real tough high school level or even college level words like supercilious or superfluous, which would get his points across much better than his foul mouth words his parents and teachers should have washed his mouth out for. Of course, like most pseudo intellectuals like him never hesitate to use foul language to prove they don't really have a good vocabulary or a command of same at all. Makes me wonder how intellectual and/or really smart a person like that can really be.

His self proclaimed lack of expertise in "Read woodsmanship", whatever that is, his geographical location, and anymore his lack of any real desire that has always held him back and continues to do so from a better body count, are typical excuses made by internet hunters to make them feel better when they read their posts late every evening over a cold beer. His proclamation that it has been a number of years since he has even sat on a stand isn't really that important; it isn't rocket science anyways. Boy that sure is good to hear from this self proclaimed intellectual. If that was not true, our scientists might not ever get us a foot off the ground anymore in space adventure and experimentation.

Then he gets really cutting with his satirical remarks about my knowledge by insinuating that guys like Randy Anderson, who is the driving force behind Will Primos's predator calls these days, indicates that anyone who appreciates the various call makers' efforts to improve the sound quality and design of the calls they make and sell to the public are more or less a waste of time since they don't understand any vital facts about what makes their calls actually function, good or bad.

It really gets comical even though not factual when he says that when a guy named Larry, or Gerry, or Al says to be germaine to the discussion doesn't make what they say the gospel. This may be true, but I'd bet my last two dimes that what they say carries much more weight than anything the Krustymouth one says.

As to Krustymouth's comments about how much time I spend making responses to dozens of Foxpro threads all over the internet each day, and his lack of vocabulary question which asks what qualifies me to be on the Foxpro Field Staff anyways (Should have read anyway, Professor Krustylips), I want to just clear the air right now for all to see that I have been the very epidemy of what old Krusty refuses to admit. I have never actually killed a coyote in my entire 71 years, unless you count one I ran over with my Chevrolet Silverado one night. The considerably high number of coyotes I have posted along with stories of how I duped them into coming into my aiming point of my 243 with Bushnell Elite 6500 scope, were all examples of my expertise with Photoshop and other photo editing software. I fooled even Mike Dillon and his family into appointing me to the Foxpro Field Staff, and the same holds true for the owners of Bog Gear products when they named me to their Field Staff with Mr. Whitetail, Larry W. and the others named to that position.I think I even fooled Rich Cronk, Cal Taylor, George Brint, Don Laubach, Murphy Love, Dan Thompson, Ed Sceery, Jay Nistetter, Rich Higgins, and a host of other well known accredited coyote hunters into believing I actually killed all those monster coyotes. Perhaps the greatest trick of all was fooling Will Primos into believing I actually killed a big 54 lb. male outside of Lexington, Ky. on a big racehorse farm, to the extent he featured old Possumal as his predator hunter of the year in his 1999 product catalog, and made all kinds of comments about how I used certain Primos hand calls to harvest that big rascal. Boy, I'll bet he will regret doing that when he reads this confession.

Finally, old foul minded, foul mouthed Krusty's remarks about what he'd tell me to do to myself except for questioning my manly ability to raise a woody anymore; be assured that a filthy pie hole like yours, Krusty, would easily raise me to the occasion, except for the fact that you aren't my type, and shouldn't be anybody's type.

I am sincerely sorry to sort of break one of Foxpro's written in stone rules by straying off the high road with a good part of this post, but I have been sick as can be, so I'll just beg your understanding and forgiveness. I went out yesterday to Casey County with my nephew, Danny Sipe,who got me involved in coyote hunting originally, and then later in the day with Danny to another farm in Woodford County, and on one other trip to accompany my grandson, Josh, and on all stands, I used exclusively my favorite mouth calls, except for one stand in Casey County when I let Danny use his Spitfire, and I felt pretty good about calling in a total of 7, with a regular plethora of answering howlers, and 3 ending up graveyard dead, and I didn't even take my beloved Savage Predator 243. I felt I had to try harder to make up for my lies over the past 18 years plus.

Leonard, I will fully understand if you take away my honorary title which you so generously bestowed upon my Possumness for trying to help you with your new CS-24. That was all just part of my act, and fits right in with Foxpro Field Staff cheerleading classes and a special class on how to compose infomercials on hunting forums.

Again, I apologize to all, but I honestly only had one agenda on any of the forums, and that was to try to help any new hunter or inexperienced hunter who wanted or needed my help.

Here are a couple of pictues to add creedence to my comments about yesterday's hunting. Please take them into consideration when you make up your mind to cut me some slack and let me stay on as a member of the forum.

As always, good hunting at ya!

[ October 25, 2010, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Possumal ]

Posted by Nikonut (Member # 188) on October 25, 2010, 12:33 AM:

quote:
with the removal of about a 18 inch long stint out of my joystick

Judging from that last post you must have an 18" hardon! LOL [Eek!]

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 25, 2010, 05:51 AM:

Possum lips, maybe when your done learning all them big words, you can learn about paragraphs...

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 25, 2010, 09:16 AM:

Boy, I've seen it all! An Okie complaining about paragraphs! Who knew?

I gotta give him his forum back. Or, at least think about it.

Good hunting. LB

Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on October 25, 2010, 09:59 AM:

Leonard:

Hopefully you had a great weekend at the campout? Did you have a chance to try out the calls that I sent you?

Posted by TOM64 (Member # 561) on October 25, 2010, 01:08 PM:

Leonard we talk slow and read slower but that drivel all clumped together makes my head hurt.

Hope you had a blast at the campout.

Dan, is it drivel or dribble? [Big Grin]

Posted by tlbradford (Member # 1232) on October 25, 2010, 02:47 PM:

Hundred dollar idea - I expect to see it on a Primos call before too long.

Put Brownings BOSS system on the end of a call so individuals can custom tune their call to optimize the sound waves from the reedand create perfect barrel harmonics and consistency.

Krusty - During my college education I had many instructors regarding construction management. Most of them were in the field at one point or another. Almost all of them had published textbooks on various subjects of construction. Many of them had failed to be effective in the construction industry. Not because of a lack of overall knowledge, but because of an epic lack of being able to apply that knowledge to industry practices in a way that was cost effective, effecient, and practical. Why would we believe you will be able to use your current education to better society, or yourself, when you have not been able to take your immense knowledge of coyotes and apply it to killing them?

There is a world of logical, fundamental, thinkers out there, from all walks of life and education levels, that have achieved and contributed a great amount to the world.

Posted by Leonard (Member # 2) on October 25, 2010, 04:29 PM:

Yes, and we also have Barack Hussain Obama, worthless piece of shit, if I ever saw one. He claims to have a high grade university education, but nobody has ever seen actual proof, or how he came by it?

Good hunting. LB

edit: yes, Steve. I had the bite call and the small open reed in my pocket the entire time, worked well and I appreciate the gift. Thank you.

edit: however, I only managed to call one coyote in three days, and one on the way home, which I missed!

[ October 25, 2010, 04:33 PM: Message edited by: Leonard ]

Posted by SD Howler (Member # 3669) on October 25, 2010, 05:39 PM:

Leonard:

The bite reed does an excellent raccoon chatter, all you have to do is roll or vibrate your tongue against the ends of the tone boards while blowing the call. I put some new sound links on following page:

Dakota Coyote Howler & Dakota Jack Bite Reed Calls (Coon Chatter w/new sound links ) Dakota

I think that if I try the chatter, I had better have a gun along with my camera. Some of the coons may be ready for a fight when they hear the chatter or distress sounds?

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 26, 2010, 12:15 AM:

Al,

Given the argot of the convocation embrasive to most internet hunting forums, the use of superlative vocabulary often obnubilates a confabulation. [Big Grin]

Big words don't always make big sense.

In your case, I reckoned I'd speak in terms the average hick from Kentucky might understand. [Wink]

Looks like you didn't get it, though? [Roll Eyes]

TLB,

I never claimed to have "immense knowledge of coyotes" so I don't expect anyone to believe anything regarding what I'll do with my education or my time hunting.

Whether or not I ever have, or ever will make a contibution to the world doesn't and won't hinge upon a few or a hundred dead coyotes. [Wink]

I think I've certainly made my own contribution to the pursuit of coyote hunting, if nothing else, in the calls I've made that are out there producing for people who are way more serious hunters than I am.

There's even one I made in the museum collection now owned by FoxPro. [Razz]

Krusty

[ October 26, 2010, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: Krustyklimber ]

Posted by Krustyklimber (Member # 72) on October 26, 2010, 07:45 AM:

When questioned on my record, calling and killing coyotes, I'm reminded of the old joke where the man with a less than spectacular appendage is questioned by the "professional" woman...

Who do you expect to please with that?

Myself.

The one thing, above all else, I have learned about hunting is to enjoy and value my increasingly scarce time doing so.
Placing the standards of folks I don't even know, and of whom don't even know me, would be more than counterproductive.

I wish you all the best of times, out there in the field, and along the trail of life. [Smile]

Krusty

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